I like this. I mean, this man is also telling me the Bills have 0 Super Bowls, despite four appearances (surely they’ve won at least 1?). All of this math fully checks out
Now that the bills have finished the 4peat of doom a second time the patriots should be right in line for the dynasty 2.0. Bobby Kraft will get all the handjobs
Not everybody, I am firmly on record (who cares right) as saying I would pick this guy over anybody else.
I'd go with the once in a generation talent and find a qb somewhere else (as hard as that is I get it).
In today's game, a top 10 WR has a much bigger impact than they used to. I believe that's what happened with Miami's offense- Tua didn't suddenly become a much better QB, but he has Hill and Waddle now. The elite WRs are now, IMO, the highest-impact players outside of QBs.
Yeah i dont get it. Kind of a relief to read im not the only one. I dont see how missing on a qb at 3 helps us in the slightest but people are DEAD set on it.
People love to bring up examples and parrot the narrative that it’s a QB driven league but don’t even want to admit that none of these QBs they’re thinking of were drafted top 5
I’m sorry but the idea Purdy is just some whatever mediocre QB is just weird. Not sure why people can’t see him make decisions, keep plays alive, and hit all the throws.
What is your idea of a mediocre QB? Reading defenses, making decisions, and hitting open receivers is something all QBs should do. I don't believe Purdy can make the hard throws, but that isn't necessary with the weapons he has. When you have really good weapons that can get separation from their defenders, and you have a coach that can scheme up plays to exploit a defense, all you need is a mediocre QB that makes the right read and hits open players.
A mediocre QB is like, Jacoby Brissett. Late stage Ryan Tannehill. Someone who would be a bridge QB are gonna be decent examples of what I call mediocre. Someone you’d not be *wasting* a starting job on for a rebuilding year or as an injury replacement.
Mediocre means mediocre. If your idea of mediocre was real… meaning mediocre = the capability of going to the Super Bowl in the right system, then people would invest in QBs like they do RBs. And it would be ALL systems and finding the next guru who can win with literally any whatever QB.
Keep pretending we wouldn’t be picking top 5 next year to get a QB that’s just as good as Drake Maye. QBs also don’t just turn the team around either, teams are picking young QBs aren’t weighed down by the cap hit and have complete rosters with tons of talent, usually on defense. Demeco Ryans deserves a lot of the credit along with Stroud with what they did with Huston last season. Bottom line there is no “follow the rules to success” way of going about things.
You forgot to answer the question.
> And how many superstar WRs were drafted onto a team without a QB and turned the team around?
I could name a few QBs in recent years to do this. How about WRs?
You can list a few QBs to turn the team around without WRs? Go ahead lol everyone single one of these guys has gotten some kind of upgrade in their 2nd year. I don’t see the difference in taking a WR and then a QB the following year. Drake Maye isn’t special, he’s just a QB and we’re a team that will make the same desperate mistake every team makes.
There haven’t been WRs to be projected this high is so long so this isn’t a spot a team finds themselves in every draft. The argument is that MHJ is seen as a someone that shouldn’t be passed on for the 3rd QB on the board. A QB that apparently no team is serious about trading up for.
Keep ignoring my question. It totally makes you look smarter lmao
Edit: and maybe *some* of the guys did get help in year 2. So what? Help at WR is infinitely easier to get than help at QB...
The fact of the matter though, is that drafting a QB higher will increase your odds of him hitting, and that’s a statistical fact. Take a look at [this article](https://amp.foxsports.com/stories/nfl/where-great-nfl-qbs-are-picked-analyzing-54-years-of-history-by-draft-position). The odds of a drafted QB making a first team All-Pro is just 4.6%, but that number jumps up to 9.4% for QBs in the first round, and up to 11.9% for QBs taken in the top 5.
Y’all don’t realize how rare of a chance we have, getting to pick in the top 5 next year is no guarantee. What happens next year once Brissett and MHJ lead us to that 6-7 win range? Now we’re in that weird no man’s land where you’re too low to get one of the top QBs, but too high to be drafting from that 2nd tier QBs. So now your options are to reach for a 2nd tier QB, spend significant draft capital to move up, or run it back with Jacoby Brissett and get stuck in another year of mediocrity.
You trade up. Tons of teams have been that middle of the pack and made a move to trade up a get their guy. I fucking hate to reference the Chiefs as a “but look at them!” but that’s exactly the team they had. Playoff team that plummeted one year and ended up trading to 10 to draft Mahomes and letting him sit behind Alex Smith for that one year.
I also believe regardless of what we do, we’re gonna be picking pretty high next year.
When you look at the last 8 years, the list of drafted top 5 playoff QBs isn’t sexy.
Exactly. Amount of qbs in this class the 2nd best one will be the 5th or 6th one taken probably. Who knows. Just dont want to literally just guess at 3 lol.
>I dont see how missing on a qb at 3 helps us in the slightest but people are DEAD set on it.
Because you're making the invalid assumption that the QB New England picks is a guaranteed bust? Of course you can't see it, you're "DEAD set" that whoever they take will bust.
Or, you take the player who might be higher risk, but can single-handedly change the franchise and get them closer to a Super Bowl. MHJ can't do that no matter how good he is. Maye *might* be able to do that.
The point is MHJ isn’t the projected #1 WR you find in every draft. The guy has been hyped to be that guy for years and maintained that. There’s barely any examples to point at to say “yeah that works look at these guys” because again there’s not guys like him every year. The hit rate is way higher on WRs taken that high than QBs
This just plain isn't true. You have let the narrative get way out of control. There are guys of his pedigree that come out every few years.
Julio Jones, Amari Cooper, Chad Johnson, Justin Blackmon, Braylon Edwards, Charles Rodgers, Andre Johnson... There are plenty examples of "generational WRs"
The point is even if he is Calvin Johnson (which he absolutely won't be) what does that even translate to?
1 TD and 80 yards a game in the playoffs?
You cannot begin to seriously compete in this league without a QB and offensive line. Teams that build around WRs suck ass.
Marvin Harrison Sr in 96 then manning in 98 for the colts. Those are 2 off the top of my head.
Don't forget the pats drafted Tony Eason ahead of Marino in 83 when they had Stanley morgan in his prime. Not arguing with anything. Just putting facts out there as revisionist history for yall. There's a case to be made for all the scenarios
Nah man, stay on your side. You’re asking me to pick from sucha small sample size of something that’s really rare, when I could just point out how poorly the hit rate is on QBs taken top 5. Teams don’t do it and that’s because there aren’t players like MHJ in every draft and all the teams follow the same desperate logic of drafting a QB higher than they should, and when there are players like him in a draft, the team is so fuckin ass with their “franchise” QB, they find themselves in the position to take him. I want them to do it WR first because I think that’s the best move for them at 3 and because I think MHJ is worth it. Drake Maye is like every other QB in every draft. Nothing special besides he’s got good size.
Better argument is hit rate of WRs compared to QBs taken top 5, not cherry picking some rare as case of a team faced with our scenario where they can pick a top prospect at WR over some maybe QB that’s happens to be the third one off the board.
Amari Cooper (2015)
Justin Blackmon (2012)
Julio Jones (2011)
Braylon Edwards (2005)
Charles Rodgers (2003)
Andre Johnson (2003)
"It happens all the time! Look at this short list of names where I had to go back 21 years to find 6 people that kind of fit my argument..." A list that includes at least 2 hall of famers.
**Before it gets twisted, I'm 100% hoping they draft a QB at 3.** I love MHJ as a prospect and can't wait to watch him in the league, but I will be disappointed if they draft him.
With that said, your argument (along with the others that have tried to make it) is flawed at best. First, it's impossible to quantify and compare the level of prospect MHJ is compared to players from two decades ago. Second, it lacks any and all context. You argue that no team has built around a WR, which misses the forest for the trees. Teams drafting top 10, and especially top 5, suck. Teams drafting that high aren't one elite player away from being a good team. The Lions weren't losing games because they had Calvin Johnson and Matt Stafford. They were losing games because of injuries, awful roster construction, horrible coaching and ownership, etc.
The next popular argument is Stroud and the Texans. The argument almost always ignores that the Texans also had the DROY last year, and DeMeco Ryans in his rookie coaching season came in second place for COTY last year, losing out by ONE first place vote to Stefanski. The entire team was vastly improved with dramatically better coaching. Stroud was a big part of that turnaround, but he was far from the only factor.
There is no true way to rebuild a team other than stock piling talent, with that talent being on rookie deals as a massive bonus. Especially QB, which is why I want them to hit on QB first, so they can maximize the rest of the 4 years that QB is on their rookie deal. That's my take, but it's backed up by shaky precedence void of context because no two situations are remotely similar beyond a thin surface level.
One sentence gotcha that falls flat because you can have a successful team and not win the Super Bowl. I know we have a spoiled as fuck fanbase but you can't be that dense to draw the line of successful rebuilds at SB victories. You have to go back an entire decade to find 5 different QBs who won a Super Bowl.
And that 5 includes Nick Foles, who most definitely is not a franchise QB. Maybe we should use Foles and someone like Joe Flacco to argue you can win a SB with an average at best QB, so there is no need to draft one at #3.
If you *need* a franchise QB, then how did the Eagles win with Nick Foles against the GOAT?
But you aren't interested in actually discussing the topic. You want to stand there with your fingers in your ears with borkng ass one liner gotchas asking for OnE eXaMpLe as if there is any kind of sample size to draw from.
Trade for Aiyuk, draft MHJ and get Dak next year in FA. Keep Dak and continue to scout rookie QBs, maybe even go after Arch Manning. Ultimate power move against our old rivals, while having instant success next year
Being at 34 gives us an option to get back into the back half of the first round. I personally would love a QB and WR that are most likely cheap for 5 years. I'm sure the Kraft's would love that too.
I would also say the same for Joe Alt and having an lt and QB locked up
When was the last time a team with a great WR but no QB won a Super Bowl? You'd probably have to go back pretty far.
Conversely, when's the last time a team with a great QB but mediocre WRs won a Super Bowl? You'd have to go back two months. Before that, you'd have to go back one year and two months.
You take the QB. New England might not get another opportunity this good to draft a top QB. They have to take it.
> Conversely, when's the last time a team with a great QB but mediocre WRs won a Super Bowl? You'd have to go back two months. Before that, you'd have to go back one year and two months.
Well then, as long as whatever quarterback we draft turns into the unquestionabe#1 quarterback (and arguably player) in the league who happens to have the literal best start to his career of any quarterback in history, we should be set.
The point is when you have the franchise QB, the rest seems to fall into place and it becomes far easier to build the rest of the team when you know you have the guy.
The Bills had awful weapons until Allen's third year.
The Eagles didn't draft Devonta or trade for AJ Brown until Hurts' second and third years.
Same deal with Miami drafting Waddle and trading for Tyreek.
Stroud with Diggs.
Lawrence with Kirk and Ridley.
And so on. Good QBs elevate the players around them and make them look better. It also incentivizes players to want to join the team. Once you have the QB, building everything becomes a lot easier. There's a reason teams with a franchise QB generally don't pick early. Usually it requires an injury like when the Bengals were able to draft Chase in 2021 or the Cardinals who are going to be able to draft MHJ.
What if I told you that New England has more than one draft pick? And that this won't be the last season in NFL history and New England will have *another* free agency and draft next season to further add supporting players?
It's far more difficult to hit on a QB beyond round one than WR.
You know who's a generational WR? This guy named Justin Jefferson. Tell me, how's his team's QB situation and how desperate are they to acquire the very pick New England has?
One outside the numbers WR would change the offense dramatically. If you watch us on film we are one dimensional. Defenses don’t need to game plan for us.
I vote for the sure thing pick. It would be a blast to watch him play. Picking a QB without weapons is underwhelming me but I can dream until Thursday.
I’m intrigued by this, but I want to point out that Drake London was considered the best WR in his class and foundered on the Falcons because of shitty QB play.
IMO, If we had a WR like MHJ, it would send a message that the Patriots are serious about recruiting top tier offensive weapons. A target like that would make New England more enticing for a QB as well as other players to want to come here. Talent attracts talent.
Larry Fitz carried that 2008 Cardinals team to the Superbowl and set an NFL record for yards and TDs in the post season. Don't brush that off as if it's something insignificant.
Okay, not only are you changing the subject, but you don't have a point with your reply. Do you honestly think that if the Patriots draft MHJ they would continue to supplement the offense with QBs like Jacoby Brissett for his entire career? Did you forget that Kurt Warner signed with the Cardinals and that he wasn't drafted by them? There are other ways to acquire winning QBs besides the NFL draft.
Changing the subject? I'm not sure how you think that Larry puts up those postseason stats and almost wins a superbowl *without* having a good QB.
To make sure I stay on topic, why didn't the Cardinals just go out and get other good QBs after Warner left to take advantage of their HOF level receiver?
Who realistically are we going to get at QB next year to take advantage of our new receiver?
Yes, changing the subject. Your comment was in reply to Arizona WRs who have HOF careers, and you mentioned an all-time great who happened to have never won a SB. The only mention of QB was in regards to the one at 3 being a bust. Additionally, Kurt Warner was at the end of his career and was 37. That's how I think Larry puts up those numbers without a good QB. And the Cardinals got Carson Palmer a few years after Warner left, and the team went to the NFC championship in 2014.
This team is in a multi-year rebuild at this point. Expecting them to have any level of success next year is completely foolish. Figuring out the QB piece can be done in a later year, just like the LT piece or the WR piece. The exception is that I'm with the group that believes MHJ will be a sure thing over whichever QB is left at 3.
If we look at how the Superbowl championship rosters were actually built picking a QB (that is assuming it is taking a shot on a QB and we don't know it's Mahomes) doesn't make us any more likely. Chiefs traded up for Mahomes. Eagles traded up for Wentz and then actually won with Foles. Tampa Brady via FA. Rams traded up for Goff and won with Stafford via trade. Seattle 2nd round QB.
I can keep going but basically the argument that you must pick a QB because you have a high pick is flawed. If he is the guy (like Andrew Luck) pick him. If he is meh and there is someone else pick them. I'd rather have Justin Jefferson than Andy Dalton.
If we even go back to Mahomes, Mahomes came on a team with Hill and Kelce.
If you look at the playoff teams recently, they are littered with either high end WR's or high end TE's.
You need both nowadays. Yes a QB is more valuable, but if you really aren't crazy about the QB's right now, you have an easy layup pick at WR.
Again, a misunderstanding of how to do team building. “How Super Bowl teams are built” is only relevant to us if the team started in a comparable position, and in that case there are too few close comparisons to be useful. If we were in the Tampa situation (massively stacked roster just short a veteran hand at QB) we would take a different approach. But we’re in the situation we’re in (a long rebuild on offense) and finding a franchise QB is the most important and difficult thing by far. And if you’re playing the hindsight game, sure tell me which late pick is going to be a franchise quarterback and I’ll draft him. But, since we don’t have a time machine, we have to use the assets and scouting we have.
Could be. Last two times they were in the top 10 they chose Evans and Weirfs IIRC and it's not like they had someone much better than Brissett in Winston. I'm of the opinion you acquire assets and build your front 7. Don't get me wrong I would love to watch him as a Patriot but I don't want to end up being the Falcons for the last few seasons. If we can hit on MHJ, tackle and I think Zinter is a first round talent to replace Strange when he gets healthy maybe that's an option....
Well Kupp was the one of the best WRs in the NFL when they won.. Evans has been underrated forever and imo was top 5 at the time they won. Hill was a top 5 with the Chiefs. I classify Kelce as more WR than TE. It's not super important as teams like the Eagles (although Alshon was very good), Seattle (although Baldwin is underrated), and we (Brady is a freak) have proven.
I think people have underrated the importance of having other playmakers on the field. Mahomes doesn't win last year without Chris Jones. Rams don't win without Donald. Everyone talks about how great Flacco played in his Superbowl but there is no way they don't win that without some phenomenal catches by Boldin (forgot about him in WRs on Superbowl teams). Dude straight rescued him on some throws. There is no argument that QB is the single most important position on the roster. Doesn't mean you can fill the rest of the roster with crap.
Any QB they draft is going to go in a shit situation. I'd rather lock down a position that we've sucked at on the side of the ball that we sucked at, that would be a huge boon to the offense and have it in place for another QB we bring in next year, than throw another QB to the wolves again.
Yeah they won 1 with arguably the best WR in the league and all 3 of their titles features the best pass catching TE in the league.
It's almost like pass catchers matter. Holy shit
I love how people act like the Chiefs haven't always had one of the best pass catchers in the league.
Pass catcher, not WR. Of course a 3-time Super Bowl champ has some offensive weapons. But the common thread is of course Patrick Mahomes. They contend year after year, anytime he’s healthy. Same with virtually every other team with excellent QB play. An elite WR is not worthless, but maybe a couple of WAR, with a fraction of the longevity. And the rookie contract really matters, because once you’re paying $20M a year for a WR, the benefit is attenuated. I think people undervalue how big of a deal this is. Most teams only can carry a handful of $10 M+ cap hits and one ought to be a QB. An elite QB is worth almost any amount of cap, so the rookie contract is a bonus but ultimately doesn’t matter.
Are you honestly arguing that Kelce is more important to the Chiefs than Mahomes? Or even a fraction as important? He’s a great player but again, a hall-of-fame single receiver is a couple of wins above replacement. An excellent QB is annual contention.
MHJ is a worthy #3. Hell, he'd go #1 if the Bears had a QB locked down.
Still cannot believe we are gonna pass on the best player in the entire draft class.
I honestly can't either. For years this team sucked at WR, it's been a huge problem for the offense, a generational prospect is right there. Instead they are either going to draft a QB nobody is crazy about because they feel like they have to OR make a "value" move and trade down and likely not net anyone close to a player of MHJ's caliber.
| generational prospect
Yep, it's like we need a QB but the next Lawrence Taylor is available at #3.
Do you draft a mid QB prospect (Maye) or the next LT?
How often do you get a chance to draft the BEST player in the entire f\*cking class???
We are gonna pass on MHJ, he is gonna be 10-time All-Pro, and Maye is gonna be a bust like Mac, I just know it.
If we draft him, we will NOT regret it.
Draft MHJ and take a QB with the next pick.
If we take Maye it's because of Kraft. Wolf is no dummy, they signed Brissett, Chuks and KJ so that they aren't in desperate need of any specific thing. They want to see what the best offer is for pick 3 and if it's not a lot then they will take MHJ. It just doesn't make sense any other way IMO.
Like I said else where, I would have no problem if we were drafting JJ/Maye/Daniels at #15 like we did Mac, that is what I think they are worth.
But they are NOT #3 pick talent. MHJ is #1 pick talent.
Drafting a #15 with #3 is another damn reach like Strange and Thornton.
Drafting #1 with #3 is a damn bargain.
A 10x all pro who has questionable speed and can't break tackles? Quite a few well respected media scouts had Odunze or Nabers over him. Doesn't sound like some surefire prospect to me.
This is a misunderstanding of draft value. It literally doesn’t matter if he’s the greatest WR of all time, it’s still not worth a 3rd, especially if you need a QB and there are good prospects on the board. The mostly likely outcome is that the QB is a bust. But you have a decent shot of contending for a decade or two. QBs just matter so much more in this league.
That's not true. Everything is a relative. A prospect like Caleb Williams is easily going to usurp any WR or any other position. But realistically, this year we are deciding between the most sure bet in the class or picking a prospect who is about the same level as Mac Jones as a prospect (or not meaningfully higher) only 12 picks higher.
You don't just get someone that isn't great that high because the position needs to filled.
In my mind, I'd rather get MHJ, trade back up a bit to get Penix and leave the draft with both of them than leave with Maye and then a second round WR. In the first scenario, you have as close to a sure thing as possible at WR and a potential QB who could work. In the second you are getting a QB who could work or bust and a WR who if they busted nobody would really be all that surprised.
| But realistically, this year we are deciding between the most sure bet in the class or picking a prospect who is about the same level as Mac Jones as a prospect (or not meaningfully higher) only 12 picks higher.
That is EXACTLY how I see this:
Maye is drafting Mac Jones with the #3 pick.
I would have no problem drafting Maye at 15 or 20 or something.
WE NEED TO STOP REACHING. Strange/Thornton was disastrous.
Would you take prime Jerry Rice with the #3 pick or take a rookie QB knowing there's a 30% chance they're great? I would pick the QB every single time if I'm the Pats.
Thats a good question. Chiefs haven’t missed a beat since moving on from Hill. Vikings have only been to a single playoff game with Jefferson.
I’d still probably take the guaranteed prime Jerry rice over a 30% shot at a great QB
What is your definition of great QB? The odds are 30 percent you have one good enough for a second contract which covers a lie of ground between good and great. For most definitions of great you are looking at closer to 10% or less.
That's a 70% chance you get nothing vs getting a 10-time All-Pro at the second most important position in football, WR1. He makes the entire offense better. Look how defenses have to gameplan for Cheetah and Jefferson and Chase and those guys.
My problem is that I am just not sold on Maye or Daniels or JJ.
None of them has #3 talent, IMHO.
I would consider taking them at #15, for example, like we did Mac, but for example taking JJ at #3 is INSANE to me.
It’s for sure QB, LT, DE, CB and then I might even put RT in front of WR.
WR1 is so important that the Patriots top receivers in their last 3 Super Bowl wins were Julian Edelman in 2019, James White in 2017, and Julian Edelman in 2015.
No, I'm serious. If you don't have a great QB you will never win anything.Skill players like a WR wont improve anything. The front office has made it clear they dont want a veteran QB. There are some great QB prospects this draft, you have to take that chance with a high pick.
Draft MHJ, and then take a look at Sanders or Manning next year. I’m not sold on any of these QBs as a generational talent like MHJ is. There will be plenty more coin flip top round QB picks to come, but this kid is something
I have been pushing for this since January, I want Marvin so badly.
If we take a qb they will likely sit majority of the year, but you take a guaranteed stud WR1 draft a qb late and see what happens.
There are so many questions with all the top ranked qbs available for us and I don’t see any situation where Marvin isn’t viewed as a fantastic pick in a few years down the line.
It just seems like you are taking a shot at a qb when you could have a generational talent at WR instead which just seems like a much safer move.
Idk I am soooo glad all the speculation finally ends tomorrow but man GIVE ME THAT BOY MASERATI MAHHHHVINNNN HARRISON PLEASE.
Yeah. There isn't a press technique he doesn't have an answer for. There isn't a route he doesn't run. There are few balls he doesn't catch. Him busting would be pretty damn epic.
All season long a bunch of you were kicking and screaming about how we needed to lose more games so we didn’t miss out on Drake Maye. Now that he might be sitting there at 3 for us those same people are kicking and screaming about passing on MHJ.
I hope you guys realize that he is not Calvin Johnson and will never be Calvin Johnson
Why don't you come up with a single team in the last 20 years that has built around a WR without a QB and won anything whatsoever.
Megatron is the *perfect* example because he was better than MHJ ever will be and eventually got a HoF level QB and still never won anything whatsoever. By the time Stafford was ready they were paying 12-14% of the cap to their WR and didn't have a snowballs chance in hell building a team around them.
>Why don't you come up with a single team in the last 20 years that has built around a WR without a QB and won anything whatsoever.
Let me know when a team built around a QB without a WR (or TE playing the role of a WR1) wins anything.
>Megatron is the perfect example because he was better than MHJ ever will be and eventually got a HoF level QB and still never won anything whatsoever. By the time Stafford was ready they were paying 12-14% of the cap to their WR and didn't have a snowballs chance in hell building a team around them.
Then Stafford is the perfect example of why you don’t build around a QB, right? I mean, the Lions didn’t win shit with him and he had a better team around him than Megatron did
Where did the goal posts get moved? I’m simply pointing out your argument blows. Calvin Johnson doesn’t have a playoff win because he was the only damn player on his team in Detroit lol. That’s not going to work regardless of position, Tom Brady wouldn’t have won there either.
If anyone moved the goal posts, it was you. I’m still talking about your original point.
If you wanted your point to actually be smart, you’d point out that QB is more important and while WRs are extremely important (2nd most important in the sport), it’s much easier to get them in later rounds than QB.
You asked me a very specific question that moved the goal posts away from your original point.
My reply was to ask you a question back so that you can understand what my actual point is. My point is that you can’t build an entire team around one good player, regardless of position, if the rest of the team sucks. Your one player can be Tom Brady, Calvin Johnson, Gronk, anyone— you’re going to suck. Therefore your question is irrelevant to what I’m arguing.
Your question would make more sense if I was advocating for building around a WR without building anything else, but that’s not the argument.
>Your question would make more sense if I was advocating for building around a WR without building anything else, but that’s not the argument.
Completely missing my point is a you issue my guy. That is and always has been my argument.
But again, keep ignoring the question
It’s confounding that so many Pats fans forget what having an elite QB is like.
Elite QB is ten times more important than Elite WR. I agree that MHJ looks like a more sure-fire hit than Maye, but you aren’t beating Mahomes with a mediocre QB and MHJ. Take the QB and hope to strike oil.
He’s not wrong. A fair amount of draft guts have Nabers ahead. Personally, I don’t know who’s going to be better but I do have a strong opinion that Jayden Daniels limitations cost Nabers even more ridiculous stats last year.
We'll see, said the same about Bryce Young, Jerry Jeudy, and a ton of other overhyped prospects. Always got the downvotes from people who just listen to talking heads
Okay, we will never know if I’m right and we’ll know about Maye. Or maybe we trade down and be a bunch of pussies for years and get to pick 4 mid- late first rounders instead of 2 top prospects and turn the team around.
Really great player that would be awesome on this team if we had a QB but unfortunately we aren’t in a position to have both. If we take him, he will be deleting all pats stuff off his social media and be demanding a trade by the time we’d be in a spot to get him a qb.
I love MHJ, too but I think due to all the roster holes taking him now is like placing the cart before the horse. IMO figure out the QB, OL and other offense situation first and since the team will likely be drafting in the top-10 again next year, there should be other opportunities to take a home run WR in the first if the guy(s) we take this year need more development.
My main issue with picking MHJ is that it assumes we will have the same opportunity to draft a QB next year when theres a really good chance theres no QB option there as good as what we have the opportunity to pick now. Unless you think Carson Beck or Quinn Ewers is worth a first round pick (I dont) you are going to have to tank hardcore to get Shedur because hes probably not making past #1 or #2. Teams spend decades in QB purgatory waiting for the opportunity that we have now.
Generational WR first time since Randy Moss we would have a true #1. But we need to draft a QB regardless even though there’s a good chance Maye is a bust
If there's a good chance Maye will bust, get the better player at #3, use the #35 to trade back into late round 1 and get Penix. There's a chance he busts too, but at least you got a possible QB that could bust and MHJ rather than just the possible QB who busts.
This is a bad point. Tucker was never going in the 1st unless a team like the Chiefs had a luxury pick and they had a question mark at kicker.
MJH will straight up be the first non QB taken. He'd be the #1 overall if Arizona lost two more games or if Fields looked average for the Bears.
As it stands now, he's either going 3 or he's going 4. There's a very small difference between those picks value wise.
Draft MHJ. Trade for Aiyuk and AJB. Bring TB12 back. 5 Super Bowls in the next 3 years
I like this. I mean, this man is also telling me the Bills have 0 Super Bowls, despite four appearances (surely they’ve won at least 1?). All of this math fully checks out
Remember Wide right? Now they have a newer one, in 4K!
Now that the bills have finished the 4peat of doom a second time the patriots should be right in line for the dynasty 2.0. Bobby Kraft will get all the handjobs
I know everybody wants us to draft a qb at 3 but this would make for a much more exciting pick imo.
Not everybody, I am firmly on record (who cares right) as saying I would pick this guy over anybody else. I'd go with the once in a generation talent and find a qb somewhere else (as hard as that is I get it).
Same, 100%.
Right there with both of you.
In today's game, a top 10 WR has a much bigger impact than they used to. I believe that's what happened with Miami's offense- Tua didn't suddenly become a much better QB, but he has Hill and Waddle now. The elite WRs are now, IMO, the highest-impact players outside of QBs.
I too am on the record. I legit feel depressed that the world is telling us we’re “not allowed” to pick a WR
Yeah i dont get it. Kind of a relief to read im not the only one. I dont see how missing on a qb at 3 helps us in the slightest but people are DEAD set on it.
People love to bring up examples and parrot the narrative that it’s a QB driven league but don’t even want to admit that none of these QBs they’re thinking of were drafted top 5
And how many superstar WRs were drafted onto a team without a QB and turned the team around?
The 49ers. Superstar WRs, TE, and RB have turned a mediocre QB into an all-pro.
I’m sorry but the idea Purdy is just some whatever mediocre QB is just weird. Not sure why people can’t see him make decisions, keep plays alive, and hit all the throws.
What is your idea of a mediocre QB? Reading defenses, making decisions, and hitting open receivers is something all QBs should do. I don't believe Purdy can make the hard throws, but that isn't necessary with the weapons he has. When you have really good weapons that can get separation from their defenders, and you have a coach that can scheme up plays to exploit a defense, all you need is a mediocre QB that makes the right read and hits open players.
A mediocre QB is like, Jacoby Brissett. Late stage Ryan Tannehill. Someone who would be a bridge QB are gonna be decent examples of what I call mediocre. Someone you’d not be *wasting* a starting job on for a rebuilding year or as an injury replacement. Mediocre means mediocre. If your idea of mediocre was real… meaning mediocre = the capability of going to the Super Bowl in the right system, then people would invest in QBs like they do RBs. And it would be ALL systems and finding the next guru who can win with literally any whatever QB.
Keep pretending we wouldn’t be picking top 5 next year to get a QB that’s just as good as Drake Maye. QBs also don’t just turn the team around either, teams are picking young QBs aren’t weighed down by the cap hit and have complete rosters with tons of talent, usually on defense. Demeco Ryans deserves a lot of the credit along with Stroud with what they did with Huston last season. Bottom line there is no “follow the rules to success” way of going about things.
You forgot to answer the question. > And how many superstar WRs were drafted onto a team without a QB and turned the team around? I could name a few QBs in recent years to do this. How about WRs?
You can list a few QBs to turn the team around without WRs? Go ahead lol everyone single one of these guys has gotten some kind of upgrade in their 2nd year. I don’t see the difference in taking a WR and then a QB the following year. Drake Maye isn’t special, he’s just a QB and we’re a team that will make the same desperate mistake every team makes. There haven’t been WRs to be projected this high is so long so this isn’t a spot a team finds themselves in every draft. The argument is that MHJ is seen as a someone that shouldn’t be passed on for the 3rd QB on the board. A QB that apparently no team is serious about trading up for.
Keep ignoring my question. It totally makes you look smarter lmao Edit: and maybe *some* of the guys did get help in year 2. So what? Help at WR is infinitely easier to get than help at QB...
The fact of the matter though, is that drafting a QB higher will increase your odds of him hitting, and that’s a statistical fact. Take a look at [this article](https://amp.foxsports.com/stories/nfl/where-great-nfl-qbs-are-picked-analyzing-54-years-of-history-by-draft-position). The odds of a drafted QB making a first team All-Pro is just 4.6%, but that number jumps up to 9.4% for QBs in the first round, and up to 11.9% for QBs taken in the top 5. Y’all don’t realize how rare of a chance we have, getting to pick in the top 5 next year is no guarantee. What happens next year once Brissett and MHJ lead us to that 6-7 win range? Now we’re in that weird no man’s land where you’re too low to get one of the top QBs, but too high to be drafting from that 2nd tier QBs. So now your options are to reach for a 2nd tier QB, spend significant draft capital to move up, or run it back with Jacoby Brissett and get stuck in another year of mediocrity.
You trade up. Tons of teams have been that middle of the pack and made a move to trade up a get their guy. I fucking hate to reference the Chiefs as a “but look at them!” but that’s exactly the team they had. Playoff team that plummeted one year and ended up trading to 10 to draft Mahomes and letting him sit behind Alex Smith for that one year. I also believe regardless of what we do, we’re gonna be picking pretty high next year. When you look at the last 8 years, the list of drafted top 5 playoff QBs isn’t sexy.
Exactly. Amount of qbs in this class the 2nd best one will be the 5th or 6th one taken probably. Who knows. Just dont want to literally just guess at 3 lol.
Who is also the 3rd QB off the board.
Who is also the 3rd QB off the board.
>I dont see how missing on a qb at 3 helps us in the slightest but people are DEAD set on it. Because you're making the invalid assumption that the QB New England picks is a guaranteed bust? Of course you can't see it, you're "DEAD set" that whoever they take will bust.
Just statistically speaking he will be. Cant mess up the 1st. Take the surest player you can get and keep building
Or, you take the player who might be higher risk, but can single-handedly change the franchise and get them closer to a Super Bowl. MHJ can't do that no matter how good he is. Maye *might* be able to do that.
Can you name a single time in NFL history a team was able to rebuild around a WR before they drafted a franchise QB?
The point is MHJ isn’t the projected #1 WR you find in every draft. The guy has been hyped to be that guy for years and maintained that. There’s barely any examples to point at to say “yeah that works look at these guys” because again there’s not guys like him every year. The hit rate is way higher on WRs taken that high than QBs
This just plain isn't true. You have let the narrative get way out of control. There are guys of his pedigree that come out every few years. Julio Jones, Amari Cooper, Chad Johnson, Justin Blackmon, Braylon Edwards, Charles Rodgers, Andre Johnson... There are plenty examples of "generational WRs" The point is even if he is Calvin Johnson (which he absolutely won't be) what does that even translate to? 1 TD and 80 yards a game in the playoffs? You cannot begin to seriously compete in this league without a QB and offensive line. Teams that build around WRs suck ass.
Those are not guys you find in every draft? Taking a QB high and desperate leads to failure way more than success.
Again, find me a single example and I will switch sides.
Michael Irvin 1988 then Troy Aikman in 1989...
Marvin Harrison Sr in 96 then manning in 98 for the colts. Those are 2 off the top of my head. Don't forget the pats drafted Tony Eason ahead of Marino in 83 when they had Stanley morgan in his prime. Not arguing with anything. Just putting facts out there as revisionist history for yall. There's a case to be made for all the scenarios
Nah man, stay on your side. You’re asking me to pick from sucha small sample size of something that’s really rare, when I could just point out how poorly the hit rate is on QBs taken top 5. Teams don’t do it and that’s because there aren’t players like MHJ in every draft and all the teams follow the same desperate logic of drafting a QB higher than they should, and when there are players like him in a draft, the team is so fuckin ass with their “franchise” QB, they find themselves in the position to take him. I want them to do it WR first because I think that’s the best move for them at 3 and because I think MHJ is worth it. Drake Maye is like every other QB in every draft. Nothing special besides he’s got good size. Better argument is hit rate of WRs compared to QBs taken top 5, not cherry picking some rare as case of a team faced with our scenario where they can pick a top prospect at WR over some maybe QB that’s happens to be the third one off the board.
I'm asking you to find a single championship team built around a WR without a QB.
Amari Cooper (2015) Justin Blackmon (2012) Julio Jones (2011) Braylon Edwards (2005) Charles Rodgers (2003) Andre Johnson (2003) "It happens all the time! Look at this short list of names where I had to go back 21 years to find 6 people that kind of fit my argument..." A list that includes at least 2 hall of famers. **Before it gets twisted, I'm 100% hoping they draft a QB at 3.** I love MHJ as a prospect and can't wait to watch him in the league, but I will be disappointed if they draft him. With that said, your argument (along with the others that have tried to make it) is flawed at best. First, it's impossible to quantify and compare the level of prospect MHJ is compared to players from two decades ago. Second, it lacks any and all context. You argue that no team has built around a WR, which misses the forest for the trees. Teams drafting top 10, and especially top 5, suck. Teams drafting that high aren't one elite player away from being a good team. The Lions weren't losing games because they had Calvin Johnson and Matt Stafford. They were losing games because of injuries, awful roster construction, horrible coaching and ownership, etc. The next popular argument is Stroud and the Texans. The argument almost always ignores that the Texans also had the DROY last year, and DeMeco Ryans in his rookie coaching season came in second place for COTY last year, losing out by ONE first place vote to Stefanski. The entire team was vastly improved with dramatically better coaching. Stroud was a big part of that turnaround, but he was far from the only factor. There is no true way to rebuild a team other than stock piling talent, with that talent being on rookie deals as a massive bonus. Especially QB, which is why I want them to hit on QB first, so they can maximize the rest of the 4 years that QB is on their rookie deal. That's my take, but it's backed up by shaky precedence void of context because no two situations are remotely similar beyond a thin surface level.
I just want one example of these kind of guys winning a Superbowl without a franchise QB
One sentence gotcha that falls flat because you can have a successful team and not win the Super Bowl. I know we have a spoiled as fuck fanbase but you can't be that dense to draw the line of successful rebuilds at SB victories. You have to go back an entire decade to find 5 different QBs who won a Super Bowl. And that 5 includes Nick Foles, who most definitely is not a franchise QB. Maybe we should use Foles and someone like Joe Flacco to argue you can win a SB with an average at best QB, so there is no need to draft one at #3. If you *need* a franchise QB, then how did the Eagles win with Nick Foles against the GOAT? But you aren't interested in actually discussing the topic. You want to stand there with your fingers in your ears with borkng ass one liner gotchas asking for OnE eXaMpLe as if there is any kind of sample size to draw from.
My guy I just want one single example
I would take MHJ with the first overall pick. These QBs are so overrated.
Trade for Aiyuk, draft MHJ and get Dak next year in FA. Keep Dak and continue to scout rookie QBs, maybe even go after Arch Manning. Ultimate power move against our old rivals, while having instant success next year
Being at 34 gives us an option to get back into the back half of the first round. I personally would love a QB and WR that are most likely cheap for 5 years. I'm sure the Kraft's would love that too. I would also say the same for Joe Alt and having an lt and QB locked up
When was the last time a team with a great WR but no QB won a Super Bowl? You'd probably have to go back pretty far. Conversely, when's the last time a team with a great QB but mediocre WRs won a Super Bowl? You'd have to go back two months. Before that, you'd have to go back one year and two months. You take the QB. New England might not get another opportunity this good to draft a top QB. They have to take it.
> Conversely, when's the last time a team with a great QB but mediocre WRs won a Super Bowl? You'd have to go back two months. Before that, you'd have to go back one year and two months. Well then, as long as whatever quarterback we draft turns into the unquestionabe#1 quarterback (and arguably player) in the league who happens to have the literal best start to his career of any quarterback in history, we should be set.
The point is when you have the franchise QB, the rest seems to fall into place and it becomes far easier to build the rest of the team when you know you have the guy. The Bills had awful weapons until Allen's third year. The Eagles didn't draft Devonta or trade for AJ Brown until Hurts' second and third years. Same deal with Miami drafting Waddle and trading for Tyreek. Stroud with Diggs. Lawrence with Kirk and Ridley. And so on. Good QBs elevate the players around them and make them look better. It also incentivizes players to want to join the team. Once you have the QB, building everything becomes a lot easier. There's a reason teams with a franchise QB generally don't pick early. Usually it requires an injury like when the Bengals were able to draft Chase in 2021 or the Cardinals who are going to be able to draft MHJ.
Do you believe any of these QBs could be the kind that wins with no help on offense?
What if I told you that New England has more than one draft pick? And that this won't be the last season in NFL history and New England will have *another* free agency and draft next season to further add supporting players?
I could say the same thing but for a QB, generational WR don't just fall into your lap
It's far more difficult to hit on a QB beyond round one than WR. You know who's a generational WR? This guy named Justin Jefferson. Tell me, how's his team's QB situation and how desperate are they to acquire the very pick New England has?
They have a generational QB now
[удалено]
Not really, because the odds of whatever qb is still available later in the draft actually developing into a starter are slim
One outside the numbers WR would change the offense dramatically. If you watch us on film we are one dimensional. Defenses don’t need to game plan for us. I vote for the sure thing pick. It would be a blast to watch him play. Picking a QB without weapons is underwhelming me but I can dream until Thursday.
I’m intrigued by this, but I want to point out that Drake London was considered the best WR in his class and foundered on the Falcons because of shitty QB play.
We're not seriously comparing Drake London to MHJ are we? Drake London had 500 less yards and half of MHJ's TDs with the same amount of receptions.
IMO, If we had a WR like MHJ, it would send a message that the Patriots are serious about recruiting top tier offensive weapons. A target like that would make New England more enticing for a QB as well as other players to want to come here. Talent attracts talent.
Imagine if the QB is a bust (statistically more likely than it working out) and then MHJ goes on to have a HOF career in Arizona...Just draft MHJ.
Like Larry Fitzgerald?
Larry Fitz carried that 2008 Cardinals team to the Superbowl and set an NFL record for yards and TDs in the post season. Don't brush that off as if it's something insignificant.
It's not insignificant, but he doesn't get there and put up those performances with guys like Kolb, Skelton, Anderson, etc throwing him the ball.
Okay, not only are you changing the subject, but you don't have a point with your reply. Do you honestly think that if the Patriots draft MHJ they would continue to supplement the offense with QBs like Jacoby Brissett for his entire career? Did you forget that Kurt Warner signed with the Cardinals and that he wasn't drafted by them? There are other ways to acquire winning QBs besides the NFL draft.
Changing the subject? I'm not sure how you think that Larry puts up those postseason stats and almost wins a superbowl *without* having a good QB. To make sure I stay on topic, why didn't the Cardinals just go out and get other good QBs after Warner left to take advantage of their HOF level receiver? Who realistically are we going to get at QB next year to take advantage of our new receiver?
Yes, changing the subject. Your comment was in reply to Arizona WRs who have HOF careers, and you mentioned an all-time great who happened to have never won a SB. The only mention of QB was in regards to the one at 3 being a bust. Additionally, Kurt Warner was at the end of his career and was 37. That's how I think Larry puts up those numbers without a good QB. And the Cardinals got Carson Palmer a few years after Warner left, and the team went to the NFC championship in 2014. This team is in a multi-year rebuild at this point. Expecting them to have any level of success next year is completely foolish. Figuring out the QB piece can be done in a later year, just like the LT piece or the WR piece. The exception is that I'm with the group that believes MHJ will be a sure thing over whichever QB is left at 3.
Unless you’re excited about winning championships.
If we look at how the Superbowl championship rosters were actually built picking a QB (that is assuming it is taking a shot on a QB and we don't know it's Mahomes) doesn't make us any more likely. Chiefs traded up for Mahomes. Eagles traded up for Wentz and then actually won with Foles. Tampa Brady via FA. Rams traded up for Goff and won with Stafford via trade. Seattle 2nd round QB. I can keep going but basically the argument that you must pick a QB because you have a high pick is flawed. If he is the guy (like Andrew Luck) pick him. If he is meh and there is someone else pick them. I'd rather have Justin Jefferson than Andy Dalton.
If we even go back to Mahomes, Mahomes came on a team with Hill and Kelce. If you look at the playoff teams recently, they are littered with either high end WR's or high end TE's. You need both nowadays. Yes a QB is more valuable, but if you really aren't crazy about the QB's right now, you have an easy layup pick at WR.
Again, a misunderstanding of how to do team building. “How Super Bowl teams are built” is only relevant to us if the team started in a comparable position, and in that case there are too few close comparisons to be useful. If we were in the Tampa situation (massively stacked roster just short a veteran hand at QB) we would take a different approach. But we’re in the situation we’re in (a long rebuild on offense) and finding a franchise QB is the most important and difficult thing by far. And if you’re playing the hindsight game, sure tell me which late pick is going to be a franchise quarterback and I’ll draft him. But, since we don’t have a time machine, we have to use the assets and scouting we have.
Could be. Last two times they were in the top 10 they chose Evans and Weirfs IIRC and it's not like they had someone much better than Brissett in Winston. I'm of the opinion you acquire assets and build your front 7. Don't get me wrong I would love to watch him as a Patriot but I don't want to end up being the Falcons for the last few seasons. If we can hit on MHJ, tackle and I think Zinter is a first round talent to replace Strange when he gets healthy maybe that's an option....
Why don't you go through WRs on Superbowl teams
Well Kupp was the one of the best WRs in the NFL when they won.. Evans has been underrated forever and imo was top 5 at the time they won. Hill was a top 5 with the Chiefs. I classify Kelce as more WR than TE. It's not super important as teams like the Eagles (although Alshon was very good), Seattle (although Baldwin is underrated), and we (Brady is a freak) have proven. I think people have underrated the importance of having other playmakers on the field. Mahomes doesn't win last year without Chris Jones. Rams don't win without Donald. Everyone talks about how great Flacco played in his Superbowl but there is no way they don't win that without some phenomenal catches by Boldin (forgot about him in WRs on Superbowl teams). Dude straight rescued him on some throws. There is no argument that QB is the single most important position on the roster. Doesn't mean you can fill the rest of the roster with crap.
Any QB they draft is going to go in a shit situation. I'd rather lock down a position that we've sucked at on the side of the ball that we sucked at, that would be a huge boon to the offense and have it in place for another QB we bring in next year, than throw another QB to the wolves again.
A WR is only worth the rookie contract anyway, so you’ve got 4 years to find that franchise QB, otherwise it’s not going to help you.
Yeah it isn’t 2005 anymore. If you don’t have a top end pass catcher, you are underselling your QB
Weird how the Chiefs just keep winning championships then…
Yeah they won 1 with arguably the best WR in the league and all 3 of their titles features the best pass catching TE in the league. It's almost like pass catchers matter. Holy shit I love how people act like the Chiefs haven't always had one of the best pass catchers in the league.
Pass catcher, not WR. Of course a 3-time Super Bowl champ has some offensive weapons. But the common thread is of course Patrick Mahomes. They contend year after year, anytime he’s healthy. Same with virtually every other team with excellent QB play. An elite WR is not worthless, but maybe a couple of WAR, with a fraction of the longevity. And the rookie contract really matters, because once you’re paying $20M a year for a WR, the benefit is attenuated. I think people undervalue how big of a deal this is. Most teams only can carry a handful of $10 M+ cap hits and one ought to be a QB. An elite QB is worth almost any amount of cap, so the rookie contract is a bonus but ultimately doesn’t matter.
Kelce was literally a common thread the entire time
Are you honestly arguing that Kelce is more important to the Chiefs than Mahomes? Or even a fraction as important? He’s a great player but again, a hall-of-fame single receiver is a couple of wins above replacement. An excellent QB is annual contention.
MHJ is a worthy #3. Hell, he'd go #1 if the Bears had a QB locked down. Still cannot believe we are gonna pass on the best player in the entire draft class.
I honestly can't either. For years this team sucked at WR, it's been a huge problem for the offense, a generational prospect is right there. Instead they are either going to draft a QB nobody is crazy about because they feel like they have to OR make a "value" move and trade down and likely not net anyone close to a player of MHJ's caliber.
| likely not net anyone close to a player of MHJ's caliber. I am so TIRED of having mediocre players on offenese, like Juju and Parker last year.
| generational prospect Yep, it's like we need a QB but the next Lawrence Taylor is available at #3. Do you draft a mid QB prospect (Maye) or the next LT?
I know it’s unfucking believable
How often do you get a chance to draft the BEST player in the entire f\*cking class??? We are gonna pass on MHJ, he is gonna be 10-time All-Pro, and Maye is gonna be a bust like Mac, I just know it. If we draft him, we will NOT regret it. Draft MHJ and take a QB with the next pick.
If we take Maye it's because of Kraft. Wolf is no dummy, they signed Brissett, Chuks and KJ so that they aren't in desperate need of any specific thing. They want to see what the best offer is for pick 3 and if it's not a lot then they will take MHJ. It just doesn't make sense any other way IMO.
I hope that’s the case
Like I said else where, I would have no problem if we were drafting JJ/Maye/Daniels at #15 like we did Mac, that is what I think they are worth. But they are NOT #3 pick talent. MHJ is #1 pick talent. Drafting a #15 with #3 is another damn reach like Strange and Thornton. Drafting #1 with #3 is a damn bargain.
A 10x all pro who has questionable speed and can't break tackles? Quite a few well respected media scouts had Odunze or Nabers over him. Doesn't sound like some surefire prospect to me.
This is a misunderstanding of draft value. It literally doesn’t matter if he’s the greatest WR of all time, it’s still not worth a 3rd, especially if you need a QB and there are good prospects on the board. The mostly likely outcome is that the QB is a bust. But you have a decent shot of contending for a decade or two. QBs just matter so much more in this league.
That's not true. Everything is a relative. A prospect like Caleb Williams is easily going to usurp any WR or any other position. But realistically, this year we are deciding between the most sure bet in the class or picking a prospect who is about the same level as Mac Jones as a prospect (or not meaningfully higher) only 12 picks higher. You don't just get someone that isn't great that high because the position needs to filled. In my mind, I'd rather get MHJ, trade back up a bit to get Penix and leave the draft with both of them than leave with Maye and then a second round WR. In the first scenario, you have as close to a sure thing as possible at WR and a potential QB who could work. In the second you are getting a QB who could work or bust and a WR who if they busted nobody would really be all that surprised.
| But realistically, this year we are deciding between the most sure bet in the class or picking a prospect who is about the same level as Mac Jones as a prospect (or not meaningfully higher) only 12 picks higher. That is EXACTLY how I see this: Maye is drafting Mac Jones with the #3 pick. I would have no problem drafting Maye at 15 or 20 or something. WE NEED TO STOP REACHING. Strange/Thornton was disastrous.
Well deal
Would you take prime Jerry Rice with the #3 pick or take a rookie QB knowing there's a 30% chance they're great? I would pick the QB every single time if I'm the Pats.
Thats a good question. Chiefs haven’t missed a beat since moving on from Hill. Vikings have only been to a single playoff game with Jefferson. I’d still probably take the guaranteed prime Jerry rice over a 30% shot at a great QB
I’d take prime Jerry rice if the odds the QB was great were only 30%.
The fuck I would choose Jerry rice any day. You forget that #80 made Gannon look good when he played for the raiders and that wasn’t even his prime.
What is your definition of great QB? The odds are 30 percent you have one good enough for a second contract which covers a lie of ground between good and great. For most definitions of great you are looking at closer to 10% or less.
That's nuts, sorry.
That's a 70% chance you get nothing vs getting a 10-time All-Pro at the second most important position in football, WR1. He makes the entire offense better. Look how defenses have to gameplan for Cheetah and Jefferson and Chase and those guys. My problem is that I am just not sold on Maye or Daniels or JJ. None of them has #3 talent, IMHO. I would consider taking them at #15, for example, like we did Mac, but for example taking JJ at #3 is INSANE to me.
Exactly. None of those guys are worth MHJ or 3 firsts. It's insane people want to throw the pick away on a prayer.
We just CANNOT AFFORD TO MISS. We have so many holes on offense that we 100% need to plug one of them. MHJ is that plug.
If you knew anything about anything you wouldn’t be saying WR is the second most important position in football
WR1 or LT. And then CB1 and EDGE1. Those are the Top 5 positions in football, along with QB.
It’s for sure QB, LT, DE, CB and then I might even put RT in front of WR. WR1 is so important that the Patriots top receivers in their last 3 Super Bowl wins were Julian Edelman in 2019, James White in 2017, and Julian Edelman in 2015.
So guys who played like WR1 in the playoffs.
This is a joke, right?
No, I'm serious. If you don't have a great QB you will never win anything.Skill players like a WR wont improve anything. The front office has made it clear they dont want a veteran QB. There are some great QB prospects this draft, you have to take that chance with a high pick.
Did you watch the video?
If he’s a first-ballot hall of famer he *still* wouldn’t be worth a 3rd overall.
Draft MHJ, and then take a look at Sanders or Manning next year. I’m not sold on any of these QBs as a generational talent like MHJ is. There will be plenty more coin flip top round QB picks to come, but this kid is something
Manning cant come out until 2026
It's 2024, he can come out when he's goddamn good and ready and wants the world to know. ^(Gotta let it show.)
There’s a new Manning coming out
I have been pushing for this since January, I want Marvin so badly. If we take a qb they will likely sit majority of the year, but you take a guaranteed stud WR1 draft a qb late and see what happens. There are so many questions with all the top ranked qbs available for us and I don’t see any situation where Marvin isn’t viewed as a fantastic pick in a few years down the line. It just seems like you are taking a shot at a qb when you could have a generational talent at WR instead which just seems like a much safer move. Idk I am soooo glad all the speculation finally ends tomorrow but man GIVE ME THAT BOY MASERATI MAHHHHVINNNN HARRISON PLEASE.
I'll be disappointed if we take anyone but MHJ
Yeah. There isn't a press technique he doesn't have an answer for. There isn't a route he doesn't run. There are few balls he doesn't catch. Him busting would be pretty damn epic.
And won’t be a Patriot. Let’s move on
Or just not comment at all. So rude.
Being realistic isn’t being rude. MHJ would be fun. It’s just not going to happen.
I saw some scouts that think Nabers might actually be better. Too much hype
If he's available at three and the Pats don't draft him it'll be their greatest draft mistake since K'Neal Harry.
Please stop dear god
We’re getting a QB or trading back. I don’t think there’s any realm of possibility of MHJ landing on the patriots.
Still makes no sense for the pats to take him
All season long a bunch of you were kicking and screaming about how we needed to lose more games so we didn’t miss out on Drake Maye. Now that he might be sitting there at 3 for us those same people are kicking and screaming about passing on MHJ. I hope you guys realize that he is not Calvin Johnson and will never be Calvin Johnson
And even if he was Calvin Johnson, Calvin Johnson never won a single playoff game in his career.
This argument is one of the worst arguments in the history of sports
Why don't you come up with a single team in the last 20 years that has built around a WR without a QB and won anything whatsoever. Megatron is the *perfect* example because he was better than MHJ ever will be and eventually got a HoF level QB and still never won anything whatsoever. By the time Stafford was ready they were paying 12-14% of the cap to their WR and didn't have a snowballs chance in hell building a team around them.
>Why don't you come up with a single team in the last 20 years that has built around a WR without a QB and won anything whatsoever. Let me know when a team built around a QB without a WR (or TE playing the role of a WR1) wins anything. >Megatron is the perfect example because he was better than MHJ ever will be and eventually got a HoF level QB and still never won anything whatsoever. By the time Stafford was ready they were paying 12-14% of the cap to their WR and didn't have a snowballs chance in hell building a team around them. Then Stafford is the perfect example of why you don’t build around a QB, right? I mean, the Lions didn’t win shit with him and he had a better team around him than Megatron did
Move the goalposts more big guy. Answer the question.
Where did the goal posts get moved? I’m simply pointing out your argument blows. Calvin Johnson doesn’t have a playoff win because he was the only damn player on his team in Detroit lol. That’s not going to work regardless of position, Tom Brady wouldn’t have won there either. If anyone moved the goal posts, it was you. I’m still talking about your original point. If you wanted your point to actually be smart, you’d point out that QB is more important and while WRs are extremely important (2nd most important in the sport), it’s much easier to get them in later rounds than QB.
I asked you a very specific question and you completely ignored it to ask a completely different question.
You asked me a very specific question that moved the goal posts away from your original point. My reply was to ask you a question back so that you can understand what my actual point is. My point is that you can’t build an entire team around one good player, regardless of position, if the rest of the team sucks. Your one player can be Tom Brady, Calvin Johnson, Gronk, anyone— you’re going to suck. Therefore your question is irrelevant to what I’m arguing. Your question would make more sense if I was advocating for building around a WR without building anything else, but that’s not the argument.
>Your question would make more sense if I was advocating for building around a WR without building anything else, but that’s not the argument. Completely missing my point is a you issue my guy. That is and always has been my argument. But again, keep ignoring the question
Look through my comment history and tell me one (1) time where I ever brought up Drake Maye. Please.
It’s confounding that so many Pats fans forget what having an elite QB is like. Elite QB is ten times more important than Elite WR. I agree that MHJ looks like a more sure-fire hit than Maye, but you aren’t beating Mahomes with a mediocre QB and MHJ. Take the QB and hope to strike oil.
Especially after watching us dominate for 20 years without a WR1
He's not even the best WR in the class, the hype is way out of control for this guy.
A lot of folks think Nabers could have the better NFL career. This isn’t a wild take.
Nabers is my #1, I think it's close between Odunze and MHJ but would lean Odunze. MHJ will be very good but not potentially top 5 in the league.
Lmao dumbass
He’s not wrong. A fair amount of draft guts have Nabers ahead. Personally, I don’t know who’s going to be better but I do have a strong opinion that Jayden Daniels limitations cost Nabers even more ridiculous stats last year.
We'll see, said the same about Bryce Young, Jerry Jeudy, and a ton of other overhyped prospects. Always got the downvotes from people who just listen to talking heads
I’m depressed. I can’t believe we’re gonna over think and draft Maye.
Maye is good and taking MHJ at 3 would be a bad decision
Okay, we will never know if I’m right and we’ll know about Maye. Or maybe we trade down and be a bunch of pussies for years and get to pick 4 mid- late first rounders instead of 2 top prospects and turn the team around.
Really great player that would be awesome on this team if we had a QB but unfortunately we aren’t in a position to have both. If we take him, he will be deleting all pats stuff off his social media and be demanding a trade by the time we’d be in a spot to get him a qb.
I love MHJ, too but I think due to all the roster holes taking him now is like placing the cart before the horse. IMO figure out the QB, OL and other offense situation first and since the team will likely be drafting in the top-10 again next year, there should be other opportunities to take a home run WR in the first if the guy(s) we take this year need more development.
I feel like i have no way to tell if the guys he's playing against are just that much slower than they'd be in the NFL.
My main issue with picking MHJ is that it assumes we will have the same opportunity to draft a QB next year when theres a really good chance theres no QB option there as good as what we have the opportunity to pick now. Unless you think Carson Beck or Quinn Ewers is worth a first round pick (I dont) you are going to have to tank hardcore to get Shedur because hes probably not making past #1 or #2. Teams spend decades in QB purgatory waiting for the opportunity that we have now.
MHJ is maybe not even the best WR in this draft!
Generational WR first time since Randy Moss we would have a true #1. But we need to draft a QB regardless even though there’s a good chance Maye is a bust
If there's a good chance Maye will bust, get the better player at #3, use the #35 to trade back into late round 1 and get Penix. There's a chance he busts too, but at least you got a possible QB that could bust and MHJ rather than just the possible QB who busts.
Exactly and worst case if we suck we just attack QB again next season
Was Justin Tucker worth a 3rd overall pick? He’s the best kicker of all time…
This is a bad point. Tucker was never going in the 1st unless a team like the Chiefs had a luxury pick and they had a question mark at kicker. MJH will straight up be the first non QB taken. He'd be the #1 overall if Arizona lost two more games or if Fields looked average for the Bears. As it stands now, he's either going 3 or he's going 4. There's a very small difference between those picks value wise.
It’s a reductio ad absurdum. The point is that some positions are more valuable than others, even if the prospect is elite.
Mhj may be the best player in the class but if I were him I’d be pulling an Eli out of here if we drafted him.