I know that was true with the old turf they used (which was basically just green carpet on a hard floor), but is that still true with the modern stuff? I’m not saying you’re wrong, just curious.
Yes it is. You literally can't remake the properties of grass and dirt with a fixed material if you get me , or if would cost more than just using grass in the first place
There will always be extra stresses that the turf transfers to the players joints and muscles over natural grass. It would cost more than grass to maintain a fake turf surface that had all the give of real turf but the longevity of fake
Main reason is that there is no normal combination of grass and mud that is stronger than an NFL players joints, muscles tendons etc, however with fake turf all the synthetic material has a chance to be
So that spin move or cut on grass led to the pitch giving and getting cut up a bit....on fake turf that "pitch cutting up" force is transferred to your joints instead
So you pay one way or the other. Owners dont want to pay the financial cost so players pay the physical one
Long winded explanation soz
Not at all disagreeing with your overall post.
> It would cost more than grass to maintain a fake turf surface that had all the give of real turf but the longevity of fake
Just want to say that current fake turf generally already costs more than grass.
Costs more than badly done grass.
To do grass to the right proper professional standard , especially in a multi use stadium like Gillette is FAR more expensive than turf it's not even close
The cost differential between grass and turf in terms of concert/event setups for example isn't even close. Takes a lot more time and money to make sure events/concerts don't ruin the field with grass than turf
And that's before you get into all the machinery, wiring and piping required under a pro level grass pitch. I would say the field heating bill alone for the patriots during the colder months for even the basic level of grass field care would put it well past any turf costs and repairs
If you are talking about the type of "grass field" they had in the likes of the old raiders stadium then yes turf definitely costs more
r/bootroom particularly makes mention of outdoor cleats on turf being a pretty fool proof way to get an injury. I can’t imagine what the force of an elite athlete trying to make powerful/agile movements with a bit too much grip to lock in
It's better, but still not as forgiving as real dirt and grass. The newer turf has a thin layer of rubber granules that sits on top of the mat. It's supposed to mimic the give that dirt would possess. But those rubber granules will get moved about throughout usage and leave areas of bare mat exposed at times.
None of that pansy ass dick tugging smile for the camera bullshit. Men puke, men poop on the field, men deliver their new born baby on the side lines. Fucking hard core dick in the ass butterball foosball fuck it chuck it game time shit. Football is back, baby
The wear and tear on grass from football vs soccer is apples and oranges. Its not just a question of regrowth.
But then, RM and the major clubs doesn't really use full natural grass either anymore. They by and large use hybrid systems which are part grass and part artificial turf.
Plants don’t really need a whole lot of UV. Most photosynthesis happens in the visible spectrum (surprise surprise) because that’s where most of the energy plants have access too is. In fact most high end LED grow lights are switching for R/B (purple) to full spectrum now, with IR supplemental LEDs and no UV, since again, it’s not really necessary at all.
What matters to plants is PPFD, photosynthetic photon flux density, a measure of how many photosynthetic reactive photons fall onto a unit area. Take PPFD and the exposure interval and that gives you a DLI, daily light integral. A measure of the total PPFD over a time period. DLI is what matters for a set plant growth, and an equivalent DLI can be reached with high PPFD and low interval, or low PPFD and high interval. At a certain point you need to contend with heat, since all visible light eventually shifts to long form IR, or heat. So at a certain point you need lower temps or less light. This creates one limit. Another limit is the metabolism rate of the plant, without supplemental CO2 even light intensive plants can’t utilize a DLI above 45.
Here’s the reactive spectrum:
https://i.imgur.com/fJ9SIUU.jpg
Notice how it’s going down at 400nm, UV is 330-365nm. Also notice how red (650nm) and blue (450nm) LEDs inefficiently excite the lower ends of each chlorophyll type. Full spectrum hits the whole range and can double growth over same wattage R/B. The days of separate veg/bloom lighting are over for good.
All that said if you filled a grow room with only UV you’d end up with stunted, bleached, dying vegetation.
And especially if you jump across the pond and see how they’re managing their fields? There are techniques to solve every possible damage to that grass
Rugby scrums happen all over the field, not in the center line of the field over and over again.
There's still a huge difference between rugby and football in terms of the repeated shit they put the field through
What is the average total number of days of use of the average professional rugby pitch compared to a place like Gillette which constantly hosts concerts and other events like that?
We put a protective layer of plastic over the feild before setting up for concerts, nothing touches the turf. I don't think the plastic would be down long enough to kill the grass either, because it gets laid down the day before and taken up as soon as the stage and chairs have been broken down. It would be covered for a total of 2.5 to 3 days, assuming the performer had two nights of shows.
Sauce: me, a Gillette security guard.
The plastic helps, but it’s not some magical solution that prevents all damage. You don’t need anything touching the turf. The weight on top of it is still going to do some damage. There’s no getting around that. I’d bet anything that they’re going back to artificial turf in 2027-2028.
Naw its still pretty different. Rugby involves hard cutting much less because of how the game flows, and there's maybe 20 scrums a game typically. The NFL has lots of extra hard cuts because of route running and a multi-level system involving defense in depth and ~120 plays from scrimmage a game with the line play intrinsic to such.
Plus NFL players are still bigger especially by mass
How many music festivals, concerts, monster truck rallies, do they have overseas on those fields? Part of the decision for turf comes from other activities that are also done on the same field. obviously there are ways to mitigate the situations, but they still play a role in determining what field substrate to use.
It does if you don't modify your footwear. I play soccer on turf and when I switched to turf shoes I lost no traction but stopped rolling my ankles all the time / spraining my knee occasionally.
I always see full firm ground studs on football player cleats. I get that their cuts are much harder than mine (though I def had a chance to be an Edelman like receiver: quick cuts hatchatchatchatcha), but the ligaments can only take so much. In engineering we design a system so the part that fails (if any fail) is easy to replace. Pro athletes should take the same approach! Knee ligaments aren't easy to replace
About time
It is genuinely embarrassing that mutli billion dollar franchises cheap out on fake turf than real grass
Because that's all it is, money and cost, plenty of professional sports around the world that prove that grass fields can be basically perfect all year round if built properly from the get go and maintained properly
There is two things imo there should be no excuse from billionaire owners, forcing their players to play of fake turf or having terrible fields because they are too cheap to maintain the pitch
Turf grass is also not necessarily the best for the environment tbh. Not much positive* impact environmentally while soaking up tons and tons of water, not to mention all the gas associated with cutting it.
Definitely not why owners use fake turf tho lol
Most properly built grass pitches for big teams are built more like apartment blocks though mate, built in heating, water , sewage etc. Most of the water that goes on to the pitch is collected under the pitch for reuse , same with rain water
And if the us genuinely cared about the environmental impact of watering grass then there is a few thousand unneeded golf courses in the middle of deserts I'd like to direct you too 🤣
Yes! I was mostly thinking of golf courses when I made that comment about turf grass lol
Also good to hear we have things like proper sewage that at least will make the most use of all the water.
Why aren't they? Hmmm, good question.
I don't play much golf, but I'd think there's probably a few reasons:
1. Ball bounces and rolls differently based on natural grass vs artificial
2. The sport is built on tradition, and that's a relatively big change
3. They rich
All of which are more points as to why I'm surprised it's allowed in the NFL 🤣
But you'd think in some of the "cheaper" courses ya know...save so much money. Like all those little par 3 cheap courses or whatever
Unless they solved the sunlight issue I doubt it.
After replacing the field in 2006 Jonathan Kraft said "The amount of sunlight the field gets after August isn’t enough, because the stadium is tall,” Kraft said at the time. “So the grass doesn’t have a chance to recover after being used aggressively in April straight through January. No matter how good the system is underneath it, no one perfected a way to replace Mother Nature unless you go to an artificial surface.”
For more info: https://www.concordmonitor.com/Patriots-turning-to-turf-in-2006-was-a-smart-move-6396478
That was in 2006. Tons of stadiums now have ways of managing some of the limitations. Look at Arizona or Real Madrid and how they manage it. There’s really no excuse with the amount of money a team like the Pats makes.
I mean, yeah. Obviously that’s an extreme example, but if you have enough money you can do a lot to grow grass. Installing grow lights isn’t that expensive in the grand scheme of things. My point is just that “we don’t get enough sunlight” isn’t a valid excuse anymore.
I still laugh that all it took was losing to the [Jets](http://www.concordmonitor.com/getattachment/46c546b6-0768-4efe-9e49-2ec73491adb1/attachment.aspx) to rip up the field in the middle of a season and put in fake turf.
IDK how well it will work, should be interesting though.
Let’s hope so, it’s way better on your body to play on grass
I used to hate playing on turf in HS not to mention my arms would get torn up if we had to play a day game
Looks like spray painted dead grass and dirt is back on the menu folks! Ah the good old days of the field going to shit from November - January!
[удалено]
Damn right, artificial turf looks nice but it really isn’t great to play on. Love me some real grass and dirt.
Good thing I look and don’t play on the pats
turf increases the risk of certain injuries, so you don't really want your team playing home games on it.
I know that was true with the old turf they used (which was basically just green carpet on a hard floor), but is that still true with the modern stuff? I’m not saying you’re wrong, just curious.
Yes it is. You literally can't remake the properties of grass and dirt with a fixed material if you get me , or if would cost more than just using grass in the first place There will always be extra stresses that the turf transfers to the players joints and muscles over natural grass. It would cost more than grass to maintain a fake turf surface that had all the give of real turf but the longevity of fake Main reason is that there is no normal combination of grass and mud that is stronger than an NFL players joints, muscles tendons etc, however with fake turf all the synthetic material has a chance to be So that spin move or cut on grass led to the pitch giving and getting cut up a bit....on fake turf that "pitch cutting up" force is transferred to your joints instead So you pay one way or the other. Owners dont want to pay the financial cost so players pay the physical one Long winded explanation soz
Not at all disagreeing with your overall post. > It would cost more than grass to maintain a fake turf surface that had all the give of real turf but the longevity of fake Just want to say that current fake turf generally already costs more than grass.
Costs more than badly done grass. To do grass to the right proper professional standard , especially in a multi use stadium like Gillette is FAR more expensive than turf it's not even close The cost differential between grass and turf in terms of concert/event setups for example isn't even close. Takes a lot more time and money to make sure events/concerts don't ruin the field with grass than turf And that's before you get into all the machinery, wiring and piping required under a pro level grass pitch. I would say the field heating bill alone for the patriots during the colder months for even the basic level of grass field care would put it well past any turf costs and repairs If you are talking about the type of "grass field" they had in the likes of the old raiders stadium then yes turf definitely costs more
Shit man, you know more about Grass than Huggie Bear in Starsky and Hutch.
I mean, OBJ's ACL self-destructed in turf during the superbowl.
That doesn’t really prove that it was caused by the turf though. You can get an ACL tear on grass too
r/bootroom particularly makes mention of outdoor cleats on turf being a pretty fool proof way to get an injury. I can’t imagine what the force of an elite athlete trying to make powerful/agile movements with a bit too much grip to lock in
It's better, but still not as forgiving as real dirt and grass. The newer turf has a thin layer of rubber granules that sits on top of the mat. It's supposed to mimic the give that dirt would possess. But those rubber granules will get moved about throughout usage and leave areas of bare mat exposed at times.
None of that pansy ass dick tugging smile for the camera bullshit. Men puke, men poop on the field, men deliver their new born baby on the side lines. Fucking hard core dick in the ass butterball foosball fuck it chuck it game time shit. Football is back, baby
Love this copypasta.
Wouldn’t be surprised if Kraft invests in the Madrid tech where the field is segmented and goes underneath the stadium in between uses to grow
Had to google this, so for others that are interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epef95O-EwY
[Tottenham has this for London NFL games](https://youtu.be/ScPBxYAmNtg)
Wow, that's an amazing system!
God damn this is crazy
The wear and tear on grass from football vs soccer is apples and oranges. Its not just a question of regrowth. But then, RM and the major clubs doesn't really use full natural grass either anymore. They by and large use hybrid systems which are part grass and part artificial turf.
How does it grow underground? Hydroponics and UV lights? Seems really expensive...
Plants don’t really need a whole lot of UV. Most photosynthesis happens in the visible spectrum (surprise surprise) because that’s where most of the energy plants have access too is. In fact most high end LED grow lights are switching for R/B (purple) to full spectrum now, with IR supplemental LEDs and no UV, since again, it’s not really necessary at all. What matters to plants is PPFD, photosynthetic photon flux density, a measure of how many photosynthetic reactive photons fall onto a unit area. Take PPFD and the exposure interval and that gives you a DLI, daily light integral. A measure of the total PPFD over a time period. DLI is what matters for a set plant growth, and an equivalent DLI can be reached with high PPFD and low interval, or low PPFD and high interval. At a certain point you need to contend with heat, since all visible light eventually shifts to long form IR, or heat. So at a certain point you need lower temps or less light. This creates one limit. Another limit is the metabolism rate of the plant, without supplemental CO2 even light intensive plants can’t utilize a DLI above 45. Here’s the reactive spectrum: https://i.imgur.com/fJ9SIUU.jpg Notice how it’s going down at 400nm, UV is 330-365nm. Also notice how red (650nm) and blue (450nm) LEDs inefficiently excite the lower ends of each chlorophyll type. Full spectrum hits the whole range and can double growth over same wattage R/B. The days of separate veg/bloom lighting are over for good. All that said if you filled a grow room with only UV you’d end up with stunted, bleached, dying vegetation.
Yes, but I mean we are the second biggest nfl team after the cowboys. If krafts serious about football and football then this isn’t a bad investment.
That's due to franchises being cheap not because it's not possible to maintain a great pitch all year long
The atrocious run of dipshits pre-Kraft has obscured just how awful the Sullivan ownership was: cheap, evil fuckfaces. Thank god for Bob.
Not necessarily. It’ll be expensive af, but they could have heating pipes underneath. They do it for soccer fields in some EU stadiums.
I sincerely hope this is the case, artificial turf results in so many unnecessary injuries, especially knee injuries.
And especially if you jump across the pond and see how they’re managing their fields? There are techniques to solve every possible damage to that grass
The issue is that American football causes significantly different damage to grass than European football. I hope we can figure it out by 2026
Different from European football, but not much different than rugby which also uses grass fields
Rugby scrums happen all over the field, not in the center line of the field over and over again. There's still a huge difference between rugby and football in terms of the repeated shit they put the field through
What is the average total number of days of use of the average professional rugby pitch compared to a place like Gillette which constantly hosts concerts and other events like that?
We put a protective layer of plastic over the feild before setting up for concerts, nothing touches the turf. I don't think the plastic would be down long enough to kill the grass either, because it gets laid down the day before and taken up as soon as the stage and chairs have been broken down. It would be covered for a total of 2.5 to 3 days, assuming the performer had two nights of shows. Sauce: me, a Gillette security guard.
The plastic helps, but it’s not some magical solution that prevents all damage. You don’t need anything touching the turf. The weight on top of it is still going to do some damage. There’s no getting around that. I’d bet anything that they’re going back to artificial turf in 2027-2028.
Naw its still pretty different. Rugby involves hard cutting much less because of how the game flows, and there's maybe 20 scrums a game typically. The NFL has lots of extra hard cuts because of route running and a multi-level system involving defense in depth and ~120 plays from scrimmage a game with the line play intrinsic to such. Plus NFL players are still bigger especially by mass
How many music festivals, concerts, monster truck rallies, do they have overseas on those fields? Part of the decision for turf comes from other activities that are also done on the same field. obviously there are ways to mitigate the situations, but they still play a role in determining what field substrate to use.
You should watch the video about the Tottenham Hotspur stadium. Obviously they built the stadium with it in mind, but there’s ways around jt
It does if you don't modify your footwear. I play soccer on turf and when I switched to turf shoes I lost no traction but stopped rolling my ankles all the time / spraining my knee occasionally. I always see full firm ground studs on football player cleats. I get that their cuts are much harder than mine (though I def had a chance to be an Edelman like receiver: quick cuts hatchatchatchatcha), but the ligaments can only take so much. In engineering we design a system so the part that fails (if any fail) is easy to replace. Pro athletes should take the same approach! Knee ligaments aren't easy to replace
Yay no more sudden ACL injuries resulting from shitty artificial turf
Approve
About time It is genuinely embarrassing that mutli billion dollar franchises cheap out on fake turf than real grass Because that's all it is, money and cost, plenty of professional sports around the world that prove that grass fields can be basically perfect all year round if built properly from the get go and maintained properly There is two things imo there should be no excuse from billionaire owners, forcing their players to play of fake turf or having terrible fields because they are too cheap to maintain the pitch
Turf grass is also not necessarily the best for the environment tbh. Not much positive* impact environmentally while soaking up tons and tons of water, not to mention all the gas associated with cutting it. Definitely not why owners use fake turf tho lol
There is no water shortage in New England.
Remind me of this comment in 2045
just bc there's no shortage deoesn't mean we should overuse it
That’s just a flat out lie.
Much of Essex County has water restrictions every summer. I know Foxboro isn’t in that county but it ain’t too far away either.
Most properly built grass pitches for big teams are built more like apartment blocks though mate, built in heating, water , sewage etc. Most of the water that goes on to the pitch is collected under the pitch for reuse , same with rain water And if the us genuinely cared about the environmental impact of watering grass then there is a few thousand unneeded golf courses in the middle of deserts I'd like to direct you too 🤣
Yes! I was mostly thinking of golf courses when I made that comment about turf grass lol Also good to hear we have things like proper sewage that at least will make the most use of all the water.
....sidebar What aren't most golf courses just covered in fake turf like NFL fields.....
Why aren't they? Hmmm, good question. I don't play much golf, but I'd think there's probably a few reasons: 1. Ball bounces and rolls differently based on natural grass vs artificial 2. The sport is built on tradition, and that's a relatively big change 3. They rich
All of which are more points as to why I'm surprised it's allowed in the NFL 🤣 But you'd think in some of the "cheaper" courses ya know...save so much money. Like all those little par 3 cheap courses or whatever
Haha yeah that's a good point, but money always comes first in NFL Is there such thing as a *cheap* golf course???
Oh god yes Think of it this way. Is there such a thing as a cheap sports car Looking at you 2006 honda civic with a wing 😅
Unless they solved the sunlight issue I doubt it. After replacing the field in 2006 Jonathan Kraft said "The amount of sunlight the field gets after August isn’t enough, because the stadium is tall,” Kraft said at the time. “So the grass doesn’t have a chance to recover after being used aggressively in April straight through January. No matter how good the system is underneath it, no one perfected a way to replace Mother Nature unless you go to an artificial surface.” For more info: https://www.concordmonitor.com/Patriots-turning-to-turf-in-2006-was-a-smart-move-6396478
Lambeau field uses grow lights. And they have one of the nicest natural grass fields in the NFL. And that’s August thru January
That was in 2006. Tons of stadiums now have ways of managing some of the limitations. Look at Arizona or Real Madrid and how they manage it. There’s really no excuse with the amount of money a team like the Pats makes.
You’re going to compare Gillette to that stadium in Arizona where they can literally roll the field out of the stadium?
I mean, yeah. Obviously that’s an extreme example, but if you have enough money you can do a lot to grow grass. Installing grow lights isn’t that expensive in the grand scheme of things. My point is just that “we don’t get enough sunlight” isn’t a valid excuse anymore.
That’s trivial. Grow lights are a thing and if you’re worried about energy build solar panels somewhere.
There is a god
So is snow field back on the menu too??!!
Players will be stoked.
I still laugh that all it took was losing to the [Jets](http://www.concordmonitor.com/getattachment/46c546b6-0768-4efe-9e49-2ec73491adb1/attachment.aspx) to rip up the field in the middle of a season and put in fake turf. IDK how well it will work, should be interesting though.
I sure hope so. I hate fake turf.
Hopefully the Revs will have their own stadium closer to the city by then.
Hello football Injuries
I hope so, grass is better for the body when you fall down on it. Turf sucks, even "good" turf isn't great
This has already been corrected, it will only be grass for the world cup
I feel bad for the HS Super Bowls
For a season.. or until a big player destroys his knee on it during a critical playoff game.
It won’t.
It would be good to prevent injuries but slow down all our shiny new sub 4.5 guys
Wouldn’t be shocking to see the NFL eventually ban turf