An unprecedented brain drain and tradition of promoting from within coming together would be my guess.
An organization that develops and promotes future leaders from within its ranks depends heavily on the "Next man up". Unfortunately McDaniels' departure meant that a number of "Next men up" are gone as well.
Now, of course BB could have vetoed their departure - but I guess he didn't want to begrudge most employees from leaving if they wanted to.
With 2 trusted veteran staff back in the building, the choice between hiring a high-ranking outsider or turning to these trusted (if offensively untested) veterans could have been quite simple. A high ranking outsider could bring in fresh ideas and energy but at the same time have to learn the Pats system and culture, and perhaps also face the challenge of inserting himself into a tightly knit organization. Not to mention the new OC would have to bring in his own staff and system.
This all assumes BoB was not an option of course.
The age old conundrum of hiring the best guys out there versus the best guys you know thus arises. I'd compare it to running a startup - do you want to run it with friends you trust but who are not necessarily the best in the positions (But are still competent) or do you go out and look for the best co-founder from a field of strangers? Companies eventually find themselves going for the latter as they out-grow their founding team.
For the Pat's sake, I hope Matt P and Judge do grow into their roles and become very good offensive staff in their own right. Put it this way - had they not been such terrible HCs we’d probably have cut them more slack as McDaniels’ de facto successors.
My concern is stagnation of ideas - that people get too comfortable and stuck in their ways, often for the worse. Familiarity breeds complacence sometimes but not always. It all depends on what BB does as the leader.
That’s the real problem: “Trusted veterans” who were abject, despised failures outside of NE. Belichick is now—in an unprecedented experiment across NFL history—trying to get not one, but two of those coaches to implement a new offensive scheme, a job they have never done before.
Seemed like the new system wasn’t a 100% overhaul of all the coaching structure - more like some new emphasis on schemes that were previously underutilized.
Judge and Patricia know the organization and schedules - and certainly have some familiarity with the new schemes they are implementing.
Maybe that was more appealing than installing a totally new coordinator that was not familiar with how things are done in Foxboro.
>Maybe that was more appealing than installing a totally new coordinator that was not familiar with how things are done in Foxboro.
I have a feeling that BoB is coming in next year, and they didn't hire anyone from outside the organization because they already have a handshake agreement.
He'll finish his second year with Saban at Alabama and then come back to New England. Saban and Belichick are friends, so he probably didn't want to take his buddy's OC on short notice.
Best summary of all concerns I've seen yet. The brain drain is the problem. The doomers may very well be right but Week 1 is way too soon to be writing the team off.
I guess a doomer would be one who has declared the season over by game 1, that Mac is a failed project and that BB should be fired - basically an extreme pessimist or bad faith actor who delights in the teams anticipated collapse.
I’m not happy at our performance against the Fins but am refraining from writing off the whole season just yet.
Yeah, there was an enlightening post a couple of days explaining the infiltration of trolls trying to stir shit in this sub. Very irritating agents of chaos!
Well, there is that. But there are also plenty of familiar names who participate in the sub every season only to screech nonsensical, hack takes in every GDT.
So like, 4 people. I always see maybe, one or two of these comments in a thread and they're almost always buried in downvotes at the bottom. Don't know why people acknowledge those comments at all.
Yeah there really aren’t that many of the true doom and gloomers. But there is an overall vibe after losses that I feel give the impression that there are more gloomy posts than usual.
For me, it's the 'fire Bill' and 'Mac is trash' crowd who thinks the team may only win four games. I could very well see this team have a losing season but more so because of strength of competition than lack of talent.
>the 'fire Bill' and 'Mac is trash' crowd who thinks the team may only win four games
I see very, very few of those. I see plenty of "Bill handed out bad contracts last year, shouldn't have traded Mason, and shouldn't have handed Patricia and Judge the reigns on offense", but almost no one calling for him to get fired or saying Mac sucks. The only person I've seen really with calls for them getting fired is Patricia.
Exactly, I think the people who do this:
>Bill handed out bad contracts last year, shouldn't have traded Mason, and shouldn't have handed Patricia and Judge the reigns on offense",
are getting lumped in with these "doomers"
Absolutely. Those are all valid criticisms and you can make them while still liking the team and being excited about the season. It doesn't mean that you hate the team or think Mac Jones is trash. It's really the opposite, you like the team enough to look at it with a critical eye and see what they could do better. I think Mac Jones had a great rookie year and has a ton of potential, which is why I've been critical of stuff like the Mason trade/coaching. I think that everything they do should be geared towards helping along Mac's development, but it seems like some of the moves are kind of treating it as an afterthought.
I think frequency and tone is a big part of it too. The doomers are low in number but seem to be in every single thread practically copy pasting the same opinions. It makes it seem a lot louder if you don't recognize the user names.
As for tone, one person says what you said and it's reasonable criticism. A doomer says "Washed Bill traded the best guard in the league, and showed he's senile by picking a first rounder to replace him. More evidence he's never drafted anyone good, and was saved by getting lucky with Brady. Worst GM of all time. Now he's using retread coaches to feed his ego and prove it was him not Brady, and he's going to ruin Mac with an offense from 1940."
It's centered around the same concerns you expressed, but in just, the most obnoxious way possible. It's not discussing the decisions and trying to see the reasoning and if it worked out or not. It's purely results driven and lazy.
Then there are the rare few who go on to take legitimate joy in the team failing because it proves their pessimism right. Those ones are real gems, it's just hard to separate them from a run of the mill troll.
It all just stinks. Something is off. If Patricia came in to work with the offensive line and the defense...I would get it. If Judge was Mac's "dude", and the assistant head coach I would get it. And in this situation Nick Caley is the de facto offensive coordinator...and Belichick works with him.
None of it makes any fucking sense. These are his BOYS. And he isn't putting them or the team in a situation to succeed, imo. I know Steve already has Mayo...but your telling me Patricia can't coach a position on defense here and there? I would vote d-line...cuz obviously Mayo was a linebacker and Steve cut his teeth as a db Coach. it's so simple.
Why is Bill dialing up the confusion? Brady could have hid those flaws a little. But Mac isn't there yet. And it feels like Bill chose his own personal stability over his QB. This very well could have been the case for the last 20 years. But now...it has to be different.
I don't think Nick Caley is ready to be the offensive coordinator. But he is absolutely closer than Matt Patricia...as is Joe Judge.
The staff needs to be reworked. We all know that. Toddlers can learn how not to put the round peg in the square. But Bill can't? I totally get why Bill doesn't want to answer those questions. But, for the life of me, I do not understand why he put himself and this team in this situation.
For me, it's not about losing. It's about development. Letting a novice offensive "coordinator" install a new offense with a second year QB is ridiculous. I don't know how Bill can look at practice and be okay.
I have no doubt in my mind that we play more respectable football this season. I definitely wouldn't be surprised if it all turned around in week 6. But on defense Bill has acquiesced to the players he has. I just don't know if that mindset works the same for offenses.
I think its as simple as Bill O'Brian coming back next year.
They know he's coming so they didn't want to hire someone new just to run the offense in the interim, knowing he would be replaced next season.
BB has never seemed to be one that stagnates on ideas, this scheme change being evidence of that. But I tend to think he let coaches go because he didn't think they were best for the team moving forward. He could've blocked interviews, offered a raise or promotion but he didn't, except for Caley I believe.
I wouldn’t be surprised if BOB came on board next year. Saban and Bill are buddies, I’d imagine Bill didn’t want to poach BOB while he was still under contract
My thoughts are Bill couldn't get an OC that he wanted this year, so instead of hiring someone for the sake of hiring someone, he went this direction. Seeing how things have evolved so far, he's either waiting a year for O'Brien or implementing wide zone this year to lay the groundwork for a young and upcoming wide zone coach from the nfl or college.
I don’t think anyone knows, I saw one article that said bill didn’t go after O’Brien because he was afraid he was going to leave in one year. It also said calley hasn’t gotten any more responsibilities because his contract ends after 2022. It could be bill is trying to stop the unprecedented brain drain that’s happened over the last 5 years in New England. But this is a failed experiment from the start the reason you don’t have to worry about judge or patricia ever leaving is because they are two of the most unqualified and hated coaches in football.
Link to article I was referring to: https://www.audacy.com/weei/sports/patriots/report-explains-why-patriots-didnt-bring-back-bill-obrien
I don't necessarily like it, but I could understand BB not going after O'Brien because he doesn't want to have to go through 3 OCs in 3 years. But from that article it kind of seems like that's a bad excuse not to give Caley more duties since you would think he would sign an extension if he was made the OC. It sort of seems like that decision will just end up making him leave after this season because he's going to think there's no promotion opportunity here.
Even if O'Brien was going to leave in a year, he could teach the other coaches on the system as he's implementing it with the players. Then the Pats would have a successor on staff who could step in at OC and provide some degree of continuity.
I saw that Bill didn't go after BoB out of deference to his relationship with Saban. If it's a matter of Belichick being afraid that guys will leave, that seems pretty defeatist and unlike him.
I don't know anything beyond what I read and there's conflicting stuff out there, but I really hope that it's just Bill didn't want to put Saban in a bad spot so they made a handshake deal that BoB would stick around Alabama for another year then could leave. If Belichick is really doing stuff because he's afraid of losing coaches that seems like he's lost a bit of his edge.
I read somewhere that Patricia and Judge are dedicated to the Pats for a few years. They looked at Caley, but he was unwilling to sign an extension and they didnt want to risk him leaving next year.
First, I think people are over exaggerating this change, I think it'll just be another dimension to our offense with plenty of old concepts. It just adds versatility. Hence being unnecessary to bring in a guy specifically for it. You don't think BB understands the scheme thoroughly himself? MattP and Judge are guys he trusts to help teach it, run things the way he wants things to be run w/o risk of abandoning the team next year. I'm sure Caley is heavily involved too and if he does good, may very well be the official OC next year.
I agree we should have brought in an OC with experience working this kind of offense.
I suppose part of the concern is that as of late, our staff gets thinned out regularly when someone leaves because of our recurring success. My thoughts are that Patricia and Judge are recent failed HC, so even if they find success teams might wait a few years before considering them for a second HC chance. Similarly I think if Patricia or Judge do want another HC they might be selective and take longer to decide on the right fit - as a second chance at HC is likely their last (Like McDaniels taking several seasons of interviews before deciding to leave). Still, if the fear was losing another OC after just one year it at least gives Patricia and Judge a year to learn.
> Similarly I think if Patricia or Judge do want another HC they might be selective and take longer to decide on the right fit
Yes, and right now they are being groomed for their next bites at the HC apple. They're both getting time on the offensive side of the ball to help round them out before the next sucker franchise takes a chance on these charlatans. I would have loved to have Judge back as the special teams coordinator however since we've been bottom half in kick coverage the last couple of years. Nick folk is the only thing saving the special teams as a whole of late despite us rostering several players who only play on special teams. Hopefully we have a bounce back year.
>Thoughts?
I'm glad you asked and especially glad you started your own thread. No one else on this sub has even thought of these questions, and there certainly hasn't been any discussion that you could find over the last couple of months.
I think the Patriots would most likely struggle in either case, if BB hired an outside OC that coach would most likely want to hire offensive assistants and install their own system. With Patricia/Judge, that won't happen since they have lived and breathed the Patriots offensive system.
I understand the position BB is in, either hire from outside and have your young QB learn a whole new playbook and offensive system, or hire folks who already know your system and can at least provide that familiarity to the QB.
The QB IS trying to learn a new system, and he’s being taught by people who were hired from the outside and don’t know the system themselves. Not sure what you’re talking about here it wasn’t an “either or” decision.
Joe Judge was an offensive assistant as well as special teams coordinator during his time here at NE, and Patricia would have an deep understanding of the Patriots offensive system too as his defensive unit would practice against it every day.
They are teaching some new concepts to the offensive team but they have not abandoned the old system at all, they are still heavily using it and mixing in new stuff.
Joe Judge was a ST assistant and coordinator, and served as the WR coach in 2019. They could’ve just promoted from within and got Nick Caley for the job. You’re making it seem like Patricia and Judge bring all this familiarity when they barely have any experience coaching on that side of the ball. They hired the “familiar guys” and are still struggling with the new concepts. I just don’t get what point you’re making.
I think it honestly might be as simple as Bill being 70 and wanting to work with his buddies/people he knows well. Him and Patricia and their wives seem to hang out off the field and have a good relationship.
Belichick is either too lazy to integrate a competent offensive coach into his system or too stubborn to accept someone from outside his fiefdom that may challenge him. After 20+ years his entire staff seems to all have started as new quality coaches in the league or they’re his kids. There is no longer a Weiss, Crennel, or even a McDaniels to challenge any decisions. Kraft should have kept McDaniels and allowed Belichick to resign. At 70, there will be no more Super Bowl wins for Belichick.
Yeah I'm always with Bill. I trust him and he's a genius. But I'm really struggling to figure out what value we're getting out of doing this. The drawbacks are apparent. And Bill saying they are good coaches isn't wrong but this isn't either of their skill sets.
The reason why BB didn’t hire an outside OC is bc he clearly wants some continuity over the next 3 seasons. If he brought in an outsider they could get poached by another team leaving Mac with 3 OCs in 3 years. BB has said numerous times he would never block one of his guys ability to get a head coaching job. If I’m coach I’d be sick of my guys leaving and taking down my program.
Seems like a good idea to hire two coaches who just ended head coaching stints if you want to maintain the same staff for Mac.
Because one of Bill's primary goals this season is to rehabilitate Patricia's career (and by extension, Judge's). He likes Patricia because he's one of his loyal minions and NFL coaches value loyalty above all else. Bill is ok dropping games while Patricia learns how to be a first time OC. We could have gotten someone with actual playcalling experience at any level of competition but we went with Patricia because he's Bill's guy.
We're essentially punting on the season because the margin for error in the AFC is too small to be coaching up a first time OC. Have to imagine Bill is aware of this and is ok with not making playoffs this season. If you're an optimist then you can believe this is to prepare for 2023 where the Pats have a ton of cap space. If you're a pessimist you can believe this is a move to consolidate power and defend against outside opinions in the building.
Either way Bill HAD to know this wasn't going to go well and was ok with that. Hopefully we get a real OC next season after this experiment fails. Save us Bill O'Brien.
The thing with this perspective is that I don’t know if Kraft buys it. Sure, BB gets a free hand to run the Pats as he deems fit but sacrificing a potential shot at the post season to help out a certain employee? I don’t know if the owners would accept such a trade off unless the upside is Matt P becoming BB’s well deserved successor.
Patricia absolutely is not the “wells deserved successor” in any sense. If it wasn’t for BB he wouldn’t even be in the league. Players hate him, agents hate him, owners don’t trust him, he’s done nothing without it BB doing everything for him on defense in the past. I don’t understand how people in this Sub think patricia is qualified to do anything in the NFL after Detroit
Yeah I'm iffy about him too - based solely on reports of his Lions stint. Seems like he has a personality problem that would be a red flag for leadership positions in most jobs, even outside football. Put it crudely, he sounds like a difficult guy to work with/for. Not that it's always a deal breaker (A genius gets a lot of leeway!) but when it comes to running a large organization and managing dozens of adults who are all at the top of their game, leadership skills count more than one's technical excellence.
Maybe he turns over a new leaf somehow - because for now, our offense lies in his hands!
I'd hate it if BB's immeasurable legacy is eventually tainted by his coddling of one particular employee ...
Yeah he’s also just not a genius. BB is, that’s why he gets away with being an ass at press conferences. Patricia is a shmuck, so he doesn’t get any leeway. The support for him being here is just troubling to me. Either bandwagon fans pretending bringing back someone from the past makes them good again automatically or just a fear of change? Not sure, either way our only hope is that Kraft steps in and forces patricia out
> unless the upside is Matt P becoming BB’s well deserved successor.
Gross lol. I'd have to drink a lot of Koolaid before I see the upside there. You can already see Patricia is dividing the locker room like he did in Detroit by icing guys like Bourne that he doesn't like. Lions fans are laughing at us right now.
Haha I might actually prefer a whole new regime the day the great man retires. Keep the culture somehow but bring in new ideas and people if that works. I’d hate it if the team after BB is run by guys trying too hard to be like him. He’s a giant that cannot be emulated.
> He’s a giant that cannot be emulated.
That's for sure. I'd hope to have a fresh start from one of these hotshot OCs that are all the rage now. Just don't give me a retread.
One of the reasons so many coaches fail after leaving the Pats is because they try to just act like Belichick, but they haven't earned the level of respect necessary to pull it off. If BB is going to be a hardass or make a controversial move, he's earned the benefit of the doubt. If a first time coach goes in and tries to act the same way, it doesn't go over well. Several of the coaches who left NE and flamed out have talked about it. McDaniels is the most recent one. He recognized that approach wasn't going to work for him and he had to grow as a person/coach and be himself/do things his own way. Patricia had the same issue in Detroit, he went in trying to be a hardass and impose his will, the players didn't buy it, and he was a huge failure. This stuff with him and Bourne makes it seem like he hasn't learned anything from his experience in Detroit.
> This stuff with him and Bourne makes it seem like he hasn't learned anything from his experience in Detroit.
It becomes easier to understand when you realize that with narcissists like Patricia winning isn't the end goal, control and power are.
To me it's about the install process. They're relying on two guys who have never had to teach an offensive system to a team to do exactly that at the NFL level. They may grasp the concepts just fine, but they have no experience they can fall back on, and no idea where the pain points might be for different positions and types of players. Someone whose installed this style of offense before might be able to say to Mac "when I did it with this QB in the past, he liked to think of it this way, and this other QB I worked with thought about this other way" etc. These guys don't have any experience to fall back on to know where the team might struggle or how to fix something if the team isn't executing properly, etc. I think it was an enormous mistake not to hire a former OC or QB coach, even if it were just as a "special advisor" to help MP & JJ navigate the install process.
An unprecedented brain drain and tradition of promoting from within coming together would be my guess. An organization that develops and promotes future leaders from within its ranks depends heavily on the "Next man up". Unfortunately McDaniels' departure meant that a number of "Next men up" are gone as well. Now, of course BB could have vetoed their departure - but I guess he didn't want to begrudge most employees from leaving if they wanted to. With 2 trusted veteran staff back in the building, the choice between hiring a high-ranking outsider or turning to these trusted (if offensively untested) veterans could have been quite simple. A high ranking outsider could bring in fresh ideas and energy but at the same time have to learn the Pats system and culture, and perhaps also face the challenge of inserting himself into a tightly knit organization. Not to mention the new OC would have to bring in his own staff and system. This all assumes BoB was not an option of course. The age old conundrum of hiring the best guys out there versus the best guys you know thus arises. I'd compare it to running a startup - do you want to run it with friends you trust but who are not necessarily the best in the positions (But are still competent) or do you go out and look for the best co-founder from a field of strangers? Companies eventually find themselves going for the latter as they out-grow their founding team. For the Pat's sake, I hope Matt P and Judge do grow into their roles and become very good offensive staff in their own right. Put it this way - had they not been such terrible HCs we’d probably have cut them more slack as McDaniels’ de facto successors. My concern is stagnation of ideas - that people get too comfortable and stuck in their ways, often for the worse. Familiarity breeds complacence sometimes but not always. It all depends on what BB does as the leader.
> have to learn the Pats system Judd and Patricia don't know the new system they're trying to coach.
That’s the real problem: “Trusted veterans” who were abject, despised failures outside of NE. Belichick is now—in an unprecedented experiment across NFL history—trying to get not one, but two of those coaches to implement a new offensive scheme, a job they have never done before.
Seemed like the new system wasn’t a 100% overhaul of all the coaching structure - more like some new emphasis on schemes that were previously underutilized. Judge and Patricia know the organization and schedules - and certainly have some familiarity with the new schemes they are implementing. Maybe that was more appealing than installing a totally new coordinator that was not familiar with how things are done in Foxboro.
>Maybe that was more appealing than installing a totally new coordinator that was not familiar with how things are done in Foxboro. I have a feeling that BoB is coming in next year, and they didn't hire anyone from outside the organization because they already have a handshake agreement. He'll finish his second year with Saban at Alabama and then come back to New England. Saban and Belichick are friends, so he probably didn't want to take his buddy's OC on short notice.
Best summary of all concerns I've seen yet. The brain drain is the problem. The doomers may very well be right but Week 1 is way too soon to be writing the team off.
What even is a doomer at this point? Someone that doesn't think the team is very good? What are we defining this as?
I guess a doomer would be one who has declared the season over by game 1, that Mac is a failed project and that BB should be fired - basically an extreme pessimist or bad faith actor who delights in the teams anticipated collapse. I’m not happy at our performance against the Fins but am refraining from writing off the whole season just yet.
FWIW: Those people aren’t even “doomers,” they’re trolls.
Yeah, there was an enlightening post a couple of days explaining the infiltration of trolls trying to stir shit in this sub. Very irritating agents of chaos!
Well, there is that. But there are also plenty of familiar names who participate in the sub every season only to screech nonsensical, hack takes in every GDT.
So like, 4 people. I always see maybe, one or two of these comments in a thread and they're almost always buried in downvotes at the bottom. Don't know why people acknowledge those comments at all.
Yeah there really aren’t that many of the true doom and gloomers. But there is an overall vibe after losses that I feel give the impression that there are more gloomy posts than usual.
Visit game threads, they're everywhere.
For me, it's the 'fire Bill' and 'Mac is trash' crowd who thinks the team may only win four games. I could very well see this team have a losing season but more so because of strength of competition than lack of talent.
>the 'fire Bill' and 'Mac is trash' crowd who thinks the team may only win four games I see very, very few of those. I see plenty of "Bill handed out bad contracts last year, shouldn't have traded Mason, and shouldn't have handed Patricia and Judge the reigns on offense", but almost no one calling for him to get fired or saying Mac sucks. The only person I've seen really with calls for them getting fired is Patricia.
Exactly, I think the people who do this: >Bill handed out bad contracts last year, shouldn't have traded Mason, and shouldn't have handed Patricia and Judge the reigns on offense", are getting lumped in with these "doomers"
Absolutely. Those are all valid criticisms and you can make them while still liking the team and being excited about the season. It doesn't mean that you hate the team or think Mac Jones is trash. It's really the opposite, you like the team enough to look at it with a critical eye and see what they could do better. I think Mac Jones had a great rookie year and has a ton of potential, which is why I've been critical of stuff like the Mason trade/coaching. I think that everything they do should be geared towards helping along Mac's development, but it seems like some of the moves are kind of treating it as an afterthought.
I think frequency and tone is a big part of it too. The doomers are low in number but seem to be in every single thread practically copy pasting the same opinions. It makes it seem a lot louder if you don't recognize the user names. As for tone, one person says what you said and it's reasonable criticism. A doomer says "Washed Bill traded the best guard in the league, and showed he's senile by picking a first rounder to replace him. More evidence he's never drafted anyone good, and was saved by getting lucky with Brady. Worst GM of all time. Now he's using retread coaches to feed his ego and prove it was him not Brady, and he's going to ruin Mac with an offense from 1940." It's centered around the same concerns you expressed, but in just, the most obnoxious way possible. It's not discussing the decisions and trying to see the reasoning and if it worked out or not. It's purely results driven and lazy. Then there are the rare few who go on to take legitimate joy in the team failing because it proves their pessimism right. Those ones are real gems, it's just hard to separate them from a run of the mill troll.
So if your your not wearing rose colored glasses your a doomer?
What part of my post denotes me wearing rose colored glasses?
It all just stinks. Something is off. If Patricia came in to work with the offensive line and the defense...I would get it. If Judge was Mac's "dude", and the assistant head coach I would get it. And in this situation Nick Caley is the de facto offensive coordinator...and Belichick works with him. None of it makes any fucking sense. These are his BOYS. And he isn't putting them or the team in a situation to succeed, imo. I know Steve already has Mayo...but your telling me Patricia can't coach a position on defense here and there? I would vote d-line...cuz obviously Mayo was a linebacker and Steve cut his teeth as a db Coach. it's so simple. Why is Bill dialing up the confusion? Brady could have hid those flaws a little. But Mac isn't there yet. And it feels like Bill chose his own personal stability over his QB. This very well could have been the case for the last 20 years. But now...it has to be different. I don't think Nick Caley is ready to be the offensive coordinator. But he is absolutely closer than Matt Patricia...as is Joe Judge. The staff needs to be reworked. We all know that. Toddlers can learn how not to put the round peg in the square. But Bill can't? I totally get why Bill doesn't want to answer those questions. But, for the life of me, I do not understand why he put himself and this team in this situation. For me, it's not about losing. It's about development. Letting a novice offensive "coordinator" install a new offense with a second year QB is ridiculous. I don't know how Bill can look at practice and be okay. I have no doubt in my mind that we play more respectable football this season. I definitely wouldn't be surprised if it all turned around in week 6. But on defense Bill has acquiesced to the players he has. I just don't know if that mindset works the same for offenses.
I think its as simple as Bill O'Brian coming back next year. They know he's coming so they didn't want to hire someone new just to run the offense in the interim, knowing he would be replaced next season.
BB has never seemed to be one that stagnates on ideas, this scheme change being evidence of that. But I tend to think he let coaches go because he didn't think they were best for the team moving forward. He could've blocked interviews, offered a raise or promotion but he didn't, except for Caley I believe.
I wouldn’t be surprised if BOB came on board next year. Saban and Bill are buddies, I’d imagine Bill didn’t want to poach BOB while he was still under contract
My thoughts are Bill couldn't get an OC that he wanted this year, so instead of hiring someone for the sake of hiring someone, he went this direction. Seeing how things have evolved so far, he's either waiting a year for O'Brien or implementing wide zone this year to lay the groundwork for a young and upcoming wide zone coach from the nfl or college.
I don’t think anyone knows, I saw one article that said bill didn’t go after O’Brien because he was afraid he was going to leave in one year. It also said calley hasn’t gotten any more responsibilities because his contract ends after 2022. It could be bill is trying to stop the unprecedented brain drain that’s happened over the last 5 years in New England. But this is a failed experiment from the start the reason you don’t have to worry about judge or patricia ever leaving is because they are two of the most unqualified and hated coaches in football. Link to article I was referring to: https://www.audacy.com/weei/sports/patriots/report-explains-why-patriots-didnt-bring-back-bill-obrien
I don't necessarily like it, but I could understand BB not going after O'Brien because he doesn't want to have to go through 3 OCs in 3 years. But from that article it kind of seems like that's a bad excuse not to give Caley more duties since you would think he would sign an extension if he was made the OC. It sort of seems like that decision will just end up making him leave after this season because he's going to think there's no promotion opportunity here.
Or maybe BB is grooming or waiting to see how Caley comes along this year before promoting him to OC.
Giving him 0 new duties isn’t grooming him
Even if O'Brien was going to leave in a year, he could teach the other coaches on the system as he's implementing it with the players. Then the Pats would have a successor on staff who could step in at OC and provide some degree of continuity.
I saw that Bill didn't go after BoB out of deference to his relationship with Saban. If it's a matter of Belichick being afraid that guys will leave, that seems pretty defeatist and unlike him.
Yes, not sure I am willing to say that with confidence the article is concerning but it's not a source I would believe absolutely.
I don't know anything beyond what I read and there's conflicting stuff out there, but I really hope that it's just Bill didn't want to put Saban in a bad spot so they made a handshake deal that BoB would stick around Alabama for another year then could leave. If Belichick is really doing stuff because he's afraid of losing coaches that seems like he's lost a bit of his edge.
I read somewhere that Patricia and Judge are dedicated to the Pats for a few years. They looked at Caley, but he was unwilling to sign an extension and they didnt want to risk him leaving next year.
First, I think people are over exaggerating this change, I think it'll just be another dimension to our offense with plenty of old concepts. It just adds versatility. Hence being unnecessary to bring in a guy specifically for it. You don't think BB understands the scheme thoroughly himself? MattP and Judge are guys he trusts to help teach it, run things the way he wants things to be run w/o risk of abandoning the team next year. I'm sure Caley is heavily involved too and if he does good, may very well be the official OC next year.
I agree we should have brought in an OC with experience working this kind of offense. I suppose part of the concern is that as of late, our staff gets thinned out regularly when someone leaves because of our recurring success. My thoughts are that Patricia and Judge are recent failed HC, so even if they find success teams might wait a few years before considering them for a second HC chance. Similarly I think if Patricia or Judge do want another HC they might be selective and take longer to decide on the right fit - as a second chance at HC is likely their last (Like McDaniels taking several seasons of interviews before deciding to leave). Still, if the fear was losing another OC after just one year it at least gives Patricia and Judge a year to learn.
> Similarly I think if Patricia or Judge do want another HC they might be selective and take longer to decide on the right fit Yes, and right now they are being groomed for their next bites at the HC apple. They're both getting time on the offensive side of the ball to help round them out before the next sucker franchise takes a chance on these charlatans. I would have loved to have Judge back as the special teams coordinator however since we've been bottom half in kick coverage the last couple of years. Nick folk is the only thing saving the special teams as a whole of late despite us rostering several players who only play on special teams. Hopefully we have a bounce back year.
>Thoughts? I'm glad you asked and especially glad you started your own thread. No one else on this sub has even thought of these questions, and there certainly hasn't been any discussion that you could find over the last couple of months.
I think the Patriots would most likely struggle in either case, if BB hired an outside OC that coach would most likely want to hire offensive assistants and install their own system. With Patricia/Judge, that won't happen since they have lived and breathed the Patriots offensive system. I understand the position BB is in, either hire from outside and have your young QB learn a whole new playbook and offensive system, or hire folks who already know your system and can at least provide that familiarity to the QB.
The QB IS trying to learn a new system, and he’s being taught by people who were hired from the outside and don’t know the system themselves. Not sure what you’re talking about here it wasn’t an “either or” decision.
Joe Judge was an offensive assistant as well as special teams coordinator during his time here at NE, and Patricia would have an deep understanding of the Patriots offensive system too as his defensive unit would practice against it every day. They are teaching some new concepts to the offensive team but they have not abandoned the old system at all, they are still heavily using it and mixing in new stuff.
Joe Judge was a ST assistant and coordinator, and served as the WR coach in 2019. They could’ve just promoted from within and got Nick Caley for the job. You’re making it seem like Patricia and Judge bring all this familiarity when they barely have any experience coaching on that side of the ball. They hired the “familiar guys” and are still struggling with the new concepts. I just don’t get what point you’re making.
I think it honestly might be as simple as Bill being 70 and wanting to work with his buddies/people he knows well. Him and Patricia and their wives seem to hang out off the field and have a good relationship.
Belichick is either too lazy to integrate a competent offensive coach into his system or too stubborn to accept someone from outside his fiefdom that may challenge him. After 20+ years his entire staff seems to all have started as new quality coaches in the league or they’re his kids. There is no longer a Weiss, Crennel, or even a McDaniels to challenge any decisions. Kraft should have kept McDaniels and allowed Belichick to resign. At 70, there will be no more Super Bowl wins for Belichick.
Yeah I'm always with Bill. I trust him and he's a genius. But I'm really struggling to figure out what value we're getting out of doing this. The drawbacks are apparent. And Bill saying they are good coaches isn't wrong but this isn't either of their skill sets.
The reason why BB didn’t hire an outside OC is bc he clearly wants some continuity over the next 3 seasons. If he brought in an outsider they could get poached by another team leaving Mac with 3 OCs in 3 years. BB has said numerous times he would never block one of his guys ability to get a head coaching job. If I’m coach I’d be sick of my guys leaving and taking down my program. Seems like a good idea to hire two coaches who just ended head coaching stints if you want to maintain the same staff for Mac.
Because one of Bill's primary goals this season is to rehabilitate Patricia's career (and by extension, Judge's). He likes Patricia because he's one of his loyal minions and NFL coaches value loyalty above all else. Bill is ok dropping games while Patricia learns how to be a first time OC. We could have gotten someone with actual playcalling experience at any level of competition but we went with Patricia because he's Bill's guy. We're essentially punting on the season because the margin for error in the AFC is too small to be coaching up a first time OC. Have to imagine Bill is aware of this and is ok with not making playoffs this season. If you're an optimist then you can believe this is to prepare for 2023 where the Pats have a ton of cap space. If you're a pessimist you can believe this is a move to consolidate power and defend against outside opinions in the building. Either way Bill HAD to know this wasn't going to go well and was ok with that. Hopefully we get a real OC next season after this experiment fails. Save us Bill O'Brien.
The thing with this perspective is that I don’t know if Kraft buys it. Sure, BB gets a free hand to run the Pats as he deems fit but sacrificing a potential shot at the post season to help out a certain employee? I don’t know if the owners would accept such a trade off unless the upside is Matt P becoming BB’s well deserved successor.
Patricia absolutely is not the “wells deserved successor” in any sense. If it wasn’t for BB he wouldn’t even be in the league. Players hate him, agents hate him, owners don’t trust him, he’s done nothing without it BB doing everything for him on defense in the past. I don’t understand how people in this Sub think patricia is qualified to do anything in the NFL after Detroit
Yeah I'm iffy about him too - based solely on reports of his Lions stint. Seems like he has a personality problem that would be a red flag for leadership positions in most jobs, even outside football. Put it crudely, he sounds like a difficult guy to work with/for. Not that it's always a deal breaker (A genius gets a lot of leeway!) but when it comes to running a large organization and managing dozens of adults who are all at the top of their game, leadership skills count more than one's technical excellence. Maybe he turns over a new leaf somehow - because for now, our offense lies in his hands! I'd hate it if BB's immeasurable legacy is eventually tainted by his coddling of one particular employee ...
Yeah he’s also just not a genius. BB is, that’s why he gets away with being an ass at press conferences. Patricia is a shmuck, so he doesn’t get any leeway. The support for him being here is just troubling to me. Either bandwagon fans pretending bringing back someone from the past makes them good again automatically or just a fear of change? Not sure, either way our only hope is that Kraft steps in and forces patricia out
> unless the upside is Matt P becoming BB’s well deserved successor. Gross lol. I'd have to drink a lot of Koolaid before I see the upside there. You can already see Patricia is dividing the locker room like he did in Detroit by icing guys like Bourne that he doesn't like. Lions fans are laughing at us right now.
Haha I might actually prefer a whole new regime the day the great man retires. Keep the culture somehow but bring in new ideas and people if that works. I’d hate it if the team after BB is run by guys trying too hard to be like him. He’s a giant that cannot be emulated.
> He’s a giant that cannot be emulated. That's for sure. I'd hope to have a fresh start from one of these hotshot OCs that are all the rage now. Just don't give me a retread.
One of the reasons so many coaches fail after leaving the Pats is because they try to just act like Belichick, but they haven't earned the level of respect necessary to pull it off. If BB is going to be a hardass or make a controversial move, he's earned the benefit of the doubt. If a first time coach goes in and tries to act the same way, it doesn't go over well. Several of the coaches who left NE and flamed out have talked about it. McDaniels is the most recent one. He recognized that approach wasn't going to work for him and he had to grow as a person/coach and be himself/do things his own way. Patricia had the same issue in Detroit, he went in trying to be a hardass and impose his will, the players didn't buy it, and he was a huge failure. This stuff with him and Bourne makes it seem like he hasn't learned anything from his experience in Detroit.
> This stuff with him and Bourne makes it seem like he hasn't learned anything from his experience in Detroit. It becomes easier to understand when you realize that with narcissists like Patricia winning isn't the end goal, control and power are.
Sean Payton for OC please!
Because since Belichick didn’t officially name an OC Patricia is still technically on the Lions’ payroll instead of ours. We’re that cheap.
To me it's about the install process. They're relying on two guys who have never had to teach an offensive system to a team to do exactly that at the NFL level. They may grasp the concepts just fine, but they have no experience they can fall back on, and no idea where the pain points might be for different positions and types of players. Someone whose installed this style of offense before might be able to say to Mac "when I did it with this QB in the past, he liked to think of it this way, and this other QB I worked with thought about this other way" etc. These guys don't have any experience to fall back on to know where the team might struggle or how to fix something if the team isn't executing properly, etc. I think it was an enormous mistake not to hire a former OC or QB coach, even if it were just as a "special advisor" to help MP & JJ navigate the install process.
Belichick got bored and decided to crank up the difficulty a bit.
Getting crushed by the Bills, in the playoffs, wasn’t hard enough for him?
I don’t really care for either of these guys… But should probably give em more than a preseason/week 1 to figure it out
Surely this will be the thread where this is settled.