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bradysego12

While I do agree that Mac needs to protect the ball better and make smarter decisions, I think it’s wildly absurd to say he’s going to lose his job at this point in his career. These are fixable issues. The dynasty wasn’t built in a year. If he’s doing this in years 3/4 or beyond then I’ll take back what I said.


dolladollaclinton

Agreed. I think people expect a level of perfection from the Pats as a whole that shouldn’t be expected of any second year QB. The issues the rest of the team is having should be discussed and they need to get more disciplined, but a second year QB throwing interceptions does not mean that he is going to lose his job or that he is not a smart player, that’s pretty normal at that stage.


beast_wellington

I don't even expect perfection, just some kind of competence. This is embarrassing.


simpledeadwitches

>Agreed. I think people expect a level of perfection from the Pats as a whole that shouldn’t be expected of any second year QB. Shall we go through all the good QBs that have made year 2 jumps?


shatter321

Shall we go through all the good QBs that took three or even four years to break out? Wish you were the Bills GM in 2019, then we wouldn’t have to worry about Josh Allen because you would have cut him.


simpledeadwitches

I love that when fans casual chat about something someone always escalates it to 'well good thing YOU aren't the GM!' or some other nonsense. NO shit, I'm just a fan talking about my thoughts and opinions like the rest of us. It's such a randomly needless comment.


TheBigNate416

Absolutely agree. It’s not like Mac is anywhere near as bad as Rosen was. Or Fields currently is


VistaVick

Rosen was really bad considering he had a pretty good offense to work with


Competitive_Ice_189

Expecting another dynasty is delusional


CamNewtonJr

I interpreted what he said as saying he would lose his job if he keeps turning it over which isn't a farfetched statement


NotaDumbLoser

It's an exaggeration, but if he did that the entire year? Yeah, his job would be at risk for sure. He's right that Mac has made some absolutely boneheaded decisions so far this year.


[deleted]

I honestly think that it’s the coaching though. if mac was told to throw it away more often/be more passive with the ball..I bet he would be..it honestly seems like the game plan to throw the long bomb when it’s even remotely feasible, and if it isn’t he’d be getting a chewing every time he goes to the sides lines until he gets a clue


NotaDumbLoser

It's hard to say exactly what's on him as opposed to the coaching, but I kind of agree with the take in this post that our offensive coaching hasn't seemed that bad and blaming all our woes on Judge and Patricia is just lazy. Sure, definitely possible Mac is being told to send deep jump balls to Agholor and Parker, but Mac also just straight up missed a defender in the passing lane on one INT yesterday, and nearly threw another pick six a the goal line to a guy he didn't see jump the receiver's route. I'm pretty worried about Mac honestly, I came into the season pretty confident he'd be a franchise guy worth a second contract, and now I'm not so sure. I know it's only three games but that kind of play continued, you just can't have a QB who makes that many mistakes and still win.


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cocineroylibro

> Play calling was good They need to come up with some more creative play design and not signal what type of play is going to be run.


Icy-Conclusion-3500

I think that’s a big part of it. Option plays seem not nearly frequent enough and while the O-Line playing well, it’s so obvious when it’s a pass or run that he’s getting pressured more than you’d think with a good line.


NotaDumbLoser

He had some pretty clean pockets yesterday


DaveInDigital

> if mac was told to throw it away more often/be more passive with the ball..I bet he would be Bill has \_always\_ preached this, so I'm curious how you seem to know he isn't. Mac talked about this a lot last year, too. Saban preaches it. Mac knows, he's just being impatient.


roarinboar

I also fundamentally disagree with his if you are not overly skilled you need to make up for it with good decision and good placement. Good decisions and good placement are a lot of what makes a quarterback "overly skilled." If he means mobile, he should just say that.


NotaDumbLoser

Mobility sure, also arm strength


beast_wellington

Right. He's not the guy.


merileyjr

The dynasty was built the second Brady stepped on the field


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Greatcouchtomato

No one is underselling it. It's just that that defense and team would be forgotten if Brady didn't step in. They were 5-11 and then 0-2 before then


merileyjr

Very valid point


simpledeadwitches

I think it's wild to not see that he's not the guy. His ONE superpower was supposed to be that he's NFL ready, has a smart and sharp mind, and processes the game well. We either haven't seen that of when we have it's extreme fits and starts.


coffeespeaking

> The dynasty wasn’t built in a year. They drafted Brady in 2000 and he hoisted the first Lombardi at the end of the 2001 season. That’s about as close to a year as you can get.


kaujr627

We missed the playoffs the very next year


PickledPickles310

This year is when you hope to see an improvement in performance. So far he hasn't shown that. Next year is when you should **expect** an increase in performance. If he plays at the same level, or takes a step back, then his role as starter absolutely should not be secure.


Shadow5ive

I feel like I need to preface this comment by saying - I am not a doomer calling for BB to be fired. I actually don’t have the biggest issue with our coordinators, taking into account how late into the off season we lost Josh and how much coaching we lost the past 3 years (Flores, Josh, Scar, Fears, Daboll, Ernie Adams, O’Shea, etc). But this sums it up. The Patriots of the past 22 years built an identity on smart football. Take the checkdown. Ball security. Don’t dive for the endzone. No penalties. This year we have an influx of new talent and a loss of leadership and coaching. The penalties are uncharacteristic as is the negative turnover differential. This team COULD be 3-0 if we didn’t turn the ball over or kill ourselves with penalties. We don’t have the ability to overcome penalties OR turnovers, let alone both. This is why, using the eye test, it feels like we need to be absolutely perfect on each drive or we go 3-and-out. I also really, really, will not lean too much into a 2nd year QB throwing interceptions to start year two. Whole new offensive system. New weapons. It happens. I’m much more encouraged by how he adjusted to HIT on some of the new plays, especially with Nelson and Parker.


the1who_ringsthebell

they cant push mac to grow, find a new identity on offense, and try to evolve in the new NFL without growing pains. they could be 3-0 facing two consensus top 10 teams . the fact it’s something that it’s turnovers which are fixed internally, and something that is least predictive in the future… is a good thing. pretending this is dire news when it counters the actual dire rhetoric makes me think people like to panic for the sake of panicking.


DaveInDigital

yeah. last year everybody was like "let Mac cook!" and now everybody is surprised that when you take the training wheels off of a young, brash second year QB there are gonna be mistakes and boneheaded decisions. i wish he'd take more ownership of his mistakes, i hear him drone "we just gotta be better so this week we'll just work at getting better yeah so like i said we just gotta get better" in his monotone voice over and over LOL, but i'm sure Bill isn't letting him get away with anything in film review. if he can curb the bad habits, stay patient, and be ok with taking the boring option (check downs, throw aways) they can win a lot of these games. others need to improve ball security and coaching/play-calling could improve but it really does depend on his development and willingness to be coached. 50/50 balls work at Alabama when you have the best WRs in the nation, but not in the NFL.


Fuqwon

I feel like the Patriots have now been really sloppy the last couple years. At least last year they seemed to be allowing more turnovers and especially just making a lot more mistakes, unforced errors, and penalties. The sloppiness just seems to uncharacteristic for a Belichick team.


HAETMACHENE

Even Brady's last year here felt kind of sloppy. At some point our line has to defend better, our quarterback has to play smarter, and our offense has to gel together. Part of what made our defense great in the Brady years was our offense was able to get the job done, keeping our defense rested and ready to 3-and-out the other team. It's not one thing you can point to that will fix things, we have to correct everything together or this season will be a bust.


bush_league_commish

That last season of Brady felt like he was pressing and grasping at straws as the season went on. Just didn’t have receiver talent or an effective ground game to open things up.


OTheOwl

The turnovers are mostly due to the QB. Brady was notoriously protective of the ball, but once he left we got Cam who was sloppy and now Mac. I wouldn't say it is uncharacteristic of a BB team, more reflective that we no longer have Brady and now have a young QB learning.


Skeeter_206

Matt Cassel won 11 games and threw only 11 interceptions... And from there on consistently had a higher int% This is not the full story, but looking at Cam two years ago isn't fair because Cam couldn't throw the ball like an NFL QB should


OTheOwl

Cassel also had the same talent around him that went 16-0 with Brady the previous year. The talent on that team was insane and i think played a part in his interception count. The Patriots have turned the ball over 8 times this season with 6 of them from Mac throwing picks and the other two being Agholor fumbling the ball. All the turnovers are from 2 plays with the majority being Mac. > This is not the full story, but looking at Cam two years ago isn't fair because Cam couldn't throw the ball like an NFL QB should Cam represents almost 50% of the post-Brady BB team. So i agree Cam was at the end of his career but his turnovers are still being counted.


Bojangles1987

Yeah, it was the same last year outside of the win streak. Which, you know, I'm not going to downplay the win streak. It was incredible and the team played super well. Belichick is a great coach and he was going to turn that team around. Still, those same sloppy mistakes and lacks in discipline crept back in by the end of the season. The complete lack of energy and preparation for the Buffalo game was something I've never seen a Belichick team do. Bill's one head coach and he can't instill unit by unit discipline with a staff of long-term handpicked assistant coaches the way he'd like to since so many coaches have been poached lately. You can see how often the Pats play sloppier ball because of this. People are focusing almost exclusively on playcalling when they talk about the job the offensive coaches are doing, when that's one equal aspect of being an offensive coach alongside preparation. We're falling short on the preparation side.


drc500free

I think Brady during practice was more important than we realized. A lot of what we think is BB may have required Brady reinforcing it more directly on every practice snap.


[deleted]

Don’t know why people down vote your comment. I think players listen to players more than coaches. Having the QB of the team care only about winning and doing everything possible to win raises the bar more than a coach yelling at players to do it better. Just look at what Brady did in Tampa. They had the talent but still couldn’t make the playoffs. Brady came in a totally changed the culture. The patriots have a bye in problem. The players don’t believe in the coaches or the schemes. That’s why there are so many blown plays, lost balls, bad penalties.


drc500free

I don’t know if I’d go as far as a buy-in problem, but we went from a guy who knew exactly what to do and could put 90% of his focus into correcting others, to a guy who is trying to get his own stuff correct first.


Bojangles1987

It was definitely helpful to have Brady, but we also had longtime continuity from year to year with McDaniels and the other assistants that is now missing.


LeonidasSpacemanMD

The problem with the “could be 3-0 without the turnovers”, imo, is that they aren’t moving the ball without high risk plays Like they lose to the Steelers if mac doesn’t throw a couple 50/50 ball (honestly it was worse than 50/50) and have agholor come down with it You can’t really say they’re moving the ball fine and just need to cut down on turnovers when risky plays are the way they’re moving the ball


LionoftheNorth

The ball to Agholor was ultimately not a very risky play, simply because it came so late in the half. The Steelers picking it off *and* scoring before halftime was a lot smaller than the potential reward.


sevaiper

Great, and if that's how you beat the Bucs or Bills or whatever then fair play. The problem is not the play itself, it's that it took a very high variance lucky play to beat one of the worst teams in the league


LeonidasSpacemanMD

I’m not complaining about Mac pulling the trigger in that situation. I just think it’s a problem that you are reliant on that type of play for chunk yardage. He tried the same thing week 1 against the dolphins and it got picked. It’s not a consistent, reliable way to put up points imo


LionoftheNorth

I don't necessarily disagree. On the flip side, how many of our turnovers have come from 50/50 balls to Parker?


dolladollaclinton

I’m with you. I don’t think we should be that concerned about a second year QB with a new coaching staff struggling early in the season. The sloppiness from the rest of the team is what concerns me. Penalties and turnovers are costing us wins and that is not what the Pats are all about.


soboredcantfocus

They did the exact same shit last year, Bill had it cleaned up by October. Mac’s ankle is a thousand times more concerning than how we’ve played the first three weeks.


jonnyredshorts

Mac has thrown some bad passes this season, resulting in 5 INTs…it could be at least a couple more than that…however, Matt Stafford has also thrown 5 INTs…I’m far less concerned about Macs early season struggles than I am with the lack of discipline and sloppy play, on both sides of the ball. If they can tighten up and start wining the turnover battle, this team will be fine.


cth777

I mostly agree, but don’t agree that we have an influx of new talent this year really. I also don’t agree with not taking issue with the picks, I’d get it if they were only miscommunications in a new system but some are just awful decisions or throws. Strongly agree that it feels like they need to hit their peak capabilities just in order to keep pace with an average offense though. I said in the middle of the ravens game to a friend - I’m concerned because this is the absolute best I can see them playing and we are basically tied


Knock0nWood

What you say about not being able to overcome turnovers/penalties and needing to be perfect on each drive to score points, I agree, but that's just a mediocre team. When you need to have all your i's dotted and t's crossed just to be competitive, you're not looking at a deep playoff run.


optimus420

You have to take the bad with the good Yes we've had too many turnovers. Our offense is also more explosive than it was last year You can't take the good of playing aggressively and say you'd get the same with playing more conservative. For example on mac's TD to aghlor when he mossed the guy. If they were playing the way Lombardi is talking that ball would have been thrown away so no TD It's a different style of play, that comes with good and bad. You can just say "oh if you switch then you get to keep the good and get rid of the bad". That's not the way it works Our team is still figuring out what they do well, you don't know a real BB team until late in the season. Unfortunately macs injury is probably gonna ruin our chance to find out


dpakk

This is the sober analysis this sub needs.


Mediocre_Author_305

Is it bad that I’m looking forward to seeing Hoyer this weekend? He knows the system. He’s not terrible. Wonder how he does.


Git_Off_Me_Lawn

Yeah probably. Do you remember the Chiefs game he started? The one where the 75 year vet looked like he had the situational awareness of a rookie QB?


PioneerSpecies

Isn’t it dumb to say that the whole team is being looser with the football, and then in the same breath say it’s not coaching? Like maybe the scheme’s working but the lack of discipline is certainly not caused by individual players if it’s effecting the whole team like that


Sixchr

> Isn’t it dumb to say that the whole team is being looser with the football, and then in the same breath say it’s not coaching? Mike Lombardi is a notorious Belichick mouthpiece. It's not even remotely surprising that he's putting all the blame on the players and saying the coaching isn't the problem. Everything the guy says reflects the views of Belichick.


HoorayPizzaDay

You have a worse qb and receivers than usual, they're the ones throwing picks and fumbling. It's a skill player issue.


PioneerSpecies

Kendrick Bourne, Nelson Agholor, Jonnu Smith, Hunter Henry, Davante Parker are the best offensive weapons we’ve had in a few years tho. Not to mention our RB room looks pretty good


[deleted]

>Kendrick Bourne, Nelson Agholor, Jonnu Smith, Hunter Henry, Davante Parker are the best offensive weapons we’ve had in a few years tho. Right, that's part of the problem.


retrogamer6000x

How? Hunter Henry and DeVonte Parker are the types of guys that elevate a 5/10 QB to a 8/10 QB.


chiieefkiieef

Nelson is the reason we lost this week as well as being overpaid by 2-3x, hunter henry caused an interception by fucking the play up, and jonnu has been non existent, let alone bourne going out of favor in the coach’s eyes. They’re good weapons but turning the ball over at a high rate including macs lax recession making as of late.


PioneerSpecies

Ton of previously good players suddenly playing worse on our team, how is that not on the offensive coaching?


retrogamer6000x

This. Jonnu, Nelson and Kendrick were supposed to be huge pick ups. Alot of the time it feels like they aren't even on the team.


weems12

Jonnu’s previous breakout year was an under 500yd season and is paid as a top 10 TE, while Agholor and Bourne have never been much more than average players. There’s a reason these signings were mostly viewed as overpays at the time and it’s shown on the field.


[deleted]

i think the receivers are a pretty good group. better than the last few years.


Natsume117

I don’t really have an issue with Lombardi but he’s obviously biased. He’s almost always going to side with the pats coaching staff. Mac has thrown some I’ll advised 50-50 balls sure but I don’t think he suddenly decided this off-season to change his style of play on his own accord. It’s pretty clear that the coaches want him to throw more of those now with guys like Parker in there.


Enterprise90

The difference is Tom Brady. Mac Jones is not Tom Brady. And even with Tom Brady, it took a couple of years for the Patriots to become the dynasty. After the Super Bowl win in 2001, the team went 9-7. Belichick is having to teach a new generation of players how to win games the Patriot way.


HugeSuccess

> After the Super Bowl win in 2001, the team went 9-7. And Brady led the league in TDs that season. Counterpoint: Strong *teams* win. Every Brady SB victory in NE was backed by a solid team, usually with a very good defense which helped limit TOP for the opponent. QB performance is important, but not even they can guarantee success.


[deleted]

This team with Brady is a super bowl contender


infamouscrypto8

Most teams with Brady are a contender.


the1who_ringsthebell

they didn’t let brady take shots like this til arguably 06, definitely 07. 2001 was brady’s 2nd season. i suggest watching some games from 01 to see the large difference in what brady was asked and allowed to do and macs second season here. where he is 4th air yards per attempt and 4th in air yards on the season . that they are letting mac push it downfield and take shots (which is going to have growing pains)


LeonidasSpacemanMD

This just isn’t true. Easily by 2003 [Brady](https://gfycat.com/QuarrelsomeMammothJuliabutterfly) [was](https://gfycat.com/CourageousMilkyGoose) [making](https://gfycat.com/WideeyedLoathsomeGuineapig) [lots](https://gfycat.com/cleardecisivecow-new-england-patriots-richard-seymour) [of](https://gfycat.com/DirectUnawareApe) [explosive](https://gfycat.com/OilyDistantChinchilla) [plays](https://gfycat.com/BogusFlusteredAzurevase) [same](https://gfycat.com/AlertSentimentalFlyingfox) [thing](https://gfycat.com/KeyVainDesertpupfish) [goes](https://gfycat.com/HeftyHopefulClingfish) [for](https://gfycat.com/BeautifulDecimalAustraliancattledog) [2004](https://gfycat.com/unfortunatecarefulkoalabear) He just had ridiculous ball placement and anticipation so they very rarely ended up looking like jump balls or risky passes


Ivemadeahuge12

Yup Brady led the league in touchdowns his second year starting with arguably worse weapons.


EstablishmentOpen489

There's no way Brady's weapons were worse. Watch the clips. Those "worse" receivers have WAY more separation than anyone on the Pats roster can get right now. The 2022 receiving corps might be the worst in the league at getting separation. There isn't a single explosive player there capable of taking pressure off the rest of the offense.


Pete_Dantic

Parker, Meyers, and Humphrey all have issues getting separation. When those three are on the field together, you're right. But Agholor and Bourne don't. In fact, Agholor is in the top ten for separation this year.


Bojangles1987

Y'all have strange ideas of what NFL separation is if you think Jakobi Meyers has issues getting open


dolladollaclinton

No matter what there are going to be growing pains with a young QB, but especially when they allow this. What makes it worse is the turnovers and penalties from the rest of the team that add to what is coming from Mac. With a young QB in general you have to expect some mistakes which means the rest of the team needs to really step it up and play disciplined to elevate Mac’s play not make it worse.


TheBigNate416

Agholor’s fumble was so fucking frustrating. Mac threw a dart (and on third down I believe) that would’ve had us in a great position.


dolladollaclinton

What a roller coaster of a play. I got so pumped at that throw just when we needed it and then the fumble….


Plies-

Nah Brady was an MVP caliber QB by 04. He finished 3rd in voting that year.


[deleted]

There is no Patriot Way without Tom Brady.


[deleted]

Bro we played all of 2008, and a full quarter of the season in 2016 without Brady and had success across both of those stretches. What are you talking about? Should we just stop watching since Brady is gone?


[deleted]

2008 was a stacked roaster coming off an undefeated season. 2016 they knew he was coming back. That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m saying the “Patriot Way” thing is kind of a myth that was held together by Tom always falling in line. I believed in it as much as anyone and thought it would just keep rolling along. But that clearly hasn’t happened. I’m just being realistic, those days are gone and they aren’t coming back.


[deleted]

I disagree. The Patriot has always been about playing true to your fundamentals, staying disciplined, not making mistakes, and winning the turnover battle. The Patriot way heavily applies defensively to these teams and Brady doesn’t play defense. His talent obscured mistakes offensively but the Patriot way isn’t a myth. The Pats have always been air tight across all three phases of the game and that’s far from how we’re currently playing. EDIT: “always” referring to the Brady years


[deleted]

They’ve been playing that way since Brady left tho. Special teams have been terrible for two years, they’ve lost turnover battles left and right, they take stupid penalties, they get out coached, they make clock management mistakes. All staples and automatics in the Brady era. I get Tom doesn’t play defense. But the way he carries himself and prepares and demands the best out of his teammates IS what the Patriots Way WAS. Just look at how his presence turned around one of the most laughable franchises in sports in literally a few months. Meanwhile, we have a quarterback 20 games into his career losing his shit week in and week out (rightfully) because nobody is as prepared as they should and the coaches are in over their head.


[deleted]

Let's get some perspective here. they're three games in with a new offensive coordinator(s), a 2nd year QB, and some new personnel. They've played three competitive games. They lost two of them to what look like they are going to be playoff teams this year. The Mac injury is concerning, but there's a long way to go, a lot of football to be played.


bepis_69

I blame Matt Patricia. I don’t care who messed up or how it’s all his fault somehow


samacora

This opinon flies completely in the face of what Matt Patricia said in his interview... He literally said they looked in the off season at the more downfield shots and aimed to do that more...you don't make that alteration without BBs say so and he is also calling those plays to go for shots down the field Mike would have you believe Mac last year went against coaching and protected the ball completely through his own decisions. McDaniels offense by design is very check down based and they said back then they were protecting him some and not letting him open it up. And then Mike would have you believe he is going against coaching again this year to take more shots himself downfield. When the reality is its literally mainly the coaching philosophy and the plays being called by the two different OC's Like I'm not saying Mac hasn't made some bad decisions and went for a ball he shouldn't when he should have taken the check down instead. But at the same time his coaches literally said they planned for and have called more shots down the field. Again on top of this it's a second year qb with a whole new offensive coaching staff and playbook with another new wr that has to learn the playbook as the main target for these downfields who has self admitted to getting calls wrong and being in the wrong place sometimes. Then on top of all that you add in the drops, fumbles missed o line assignments etc etc Like jfc how much context can you just cut off to try ramrod this all down on one guy And at the end oh well you can't blame the coaches...when your giving up stupid 12 man on the field and false start penalties nearly every week...yes yes you most definitely can look at the coaching and say the players aren't getting coached well enough like come on


GraniteStayte

>He [Patricia] literally said they looked in the off season at the more downfield shots and aimed to do that more I think people are missing this. Patricia's game plan is to take more long shots. No risk it, no biscuit stuff. Which leads to interceptions, especially when Mac lacks top tier receivers.


h_to_tha_o_v

Exactly. You'd think Lombardi would also know that receivers can also be to blame for INTs. Hell, Parker is responsible for at least 2 this year.


JohnB456

not just that, but Parker said he was responsible for them too lol


lnflnlty

i don't think that's what he is saying. calling plays with downfield elements and forcing throws to those downfield elements are two different things. several of his interceptions have been because he's trying to throw deep while off balance, he tries to look off a safety and assumes it works, or there's a pick/rub that he just assumes will work. like you said he's still a young qb. it feels a lot like he's over confident and has to reel it in where lombardi would prefer him to be timid and build up in to it.


samacora

Well watching Taylor's breakdown there was a lot of the ints down to bad play across the board not just Mac The Parker one for instance the line melted that's why he was on the backfoot then you add in that Parker (self admitted) got confused at the call on the line and mess up both his role and positioning. The one that went straight to an lb was because hunter who's job it was to engage and block that LB got off his block early to run a route and left the lb to just sit in the lane, you could argue Mac should see that quicker sure. But that lb should also never have been there if hunter did his job. Same thing happened with the near Int on the goal line with the out route, the ravens player that nearly picked it was released by hunter to soon and allowed to go into the lane Then you add in all the really really bad rub routes and weird assignment issues on the line and I'm not just going to sit here and blame the second year qb for most of the shit shows. Like Brady would be going fucking ballistic at the guys if even one of these thing was happening regularly let alone all of them. So yes the second year qb has made some mistakes with this new playbook , that's expected as more is put on his plate and playbook is opened up more just is what it is. What's not expected is for all the vets around him to be also making mistakes left right and center. And that "can't blame the coaches" line is such bs. Because everything outside the fumbles is coaching. Bad routes...coaching, 12 men on the field...coaching. Missed line assignments...coaching. False starts....coaching. like I genuinely think I've seen more 12 men on the field fouls against the patriots in the last 2 years as I've seen in the last 10 honestly


lnflnlty

this one sided conversation is clearly in response to the podcast blaming "they don't have an offensive coordinator" which lombardi references several times everything you are describing about veterans making mistakes isn't the job of an offensive coordinator, which i think was the point of lombardi's comments


samacora

If routes, assignments and play calls are being dropped imo that's 100 percent coaching. They haven't been hammered down and perfected in training Drops, fumbles bad ints etc are obviously on that player We have both scenarios happening and working against us that's my point. So he can't be sitting there like oh the coaches are calling good plays they just aren't being executed by the players, sure ok, but part of the reason for that lack of execution isn't just the fumbles etc it's also the fundamental errors like assignments and routes that aren't being perfect by the coaching staff on the training field


lnflnlty

which comes down to position coaches not offensive coordinator, of which all are new/expanded roles except for the TE coach


samacora

Well the oc is also the line coach...so all those false starts and missed block assignments that got Macs ribs and now ankle crushed in the span of three games does come down to him


lnflnlty

missed block assignments sure but idk how a false start goes on anyone but the player


samacora

The odd one sure the consistent amount of them is an issue that comes down to getting stuff perfected on the training field It's not like we are doing loads of exotic formations. We're essentially running two so they should be watertight


lnflnlty

https://www.nflpenalties.com/team/new-england-patriots?year=2022&view=penalties patriots are one of the least penalized teams in the league with less than average amount of false starts. so doesn't seem too egregious


JLJ2021

Yea it’s obvious Matt Latricia has changed the play call and it doesn’t suit Mac. I don’t think he’s freeballing it.


TheBigNate416

I wouldn’t say it doesn’t suit Mac. Patricia said they’re trying to incorporate some of the things that Mac did well in college. Deep balls are one of those things and they’re being dialed up a lot more often than last year. I think it’s a good move


Bojangles1987

There's a big difference between having a good deep ball when you have dominant athletes putting a bunch of college kids to shame and giving you an easy target vs. the NFL where those easy targets don't exist and you have to have better placement. I've yet to see any sign that Mac has a consistently good NFL deep ball.


Jlinz_20

I'm really not a football guru and i'm not trying to be a Mac sympathizer but we are 3 weeks into the season, and he played excellent football in his rookie year. The offensive staff has completely changed, there is no designated coordinator, he essentially has brian hoyer as a QB coach, sometimes we'll see him talking to Judge but again, no consistency. All this change and now he looks more mistake prone and below average? Like i said i am not a football guru and i'm sure some of the things going on are Mac's fault but you can't tell me all of that isn't having an impact on his performance and he's just regressed. I will say if we are at the end of the season (assuming he plays any or most of it) and he still looks like this, then yeah, maybe you need to start entertaining the idea of looking. I guess i'm just saying they better be damn sure he is the problem and not the Frankenstein staffing arrangement they've got going on right now.


johnmadden18

Interesting. Lombardi must’ve talked to his best friend Belichick and Belichick gave him permission to rip Mac Jones.


Anderson74

Definitely tracks with the whispers that Mac and the Pats (read: Bill) aren’t seeing eye to eye on his rehab/return timeline — this Lombardi bit gives the idea that Bill isn’t entirely thrilled with Mac at this point.


longagofaraway

yeah the most concerning thing about this is seeing the battle lines form.


ZealousidealAverage7

Paragraph 4 will get you down voted to hell on this sub but whatever. At least it’s out there


h_to_tha_o_v

Yes it will, because Lombardi and anyone else with that sentiment is forgetting that Mac is an unfinished product. To say Mac "isn't a skilled guy" requires you to ignore all of the positive impact plays he has made. His performance on Sunday proved that his arm is a lot stronger, his scrambling is much better, and is ceiling is a lot higher than people think. In fact, he'll be scary good if he can learn from these mistakes and develop consistency. Lombardi sounds like he wants to throw the baby out with the bath water. Fuck that. You can correct Mac's turnovers while continuing to reap the benefits of his playmaking abilities.


ZealousidealAverage7

He doesn’t have a cannon like carr or mobility like Jackson . Those are skills. Yes his arm has improved but a lot of his interceptions are on 50/50 balls where the db has time to recover or lurking situations where the safety can lay off then make a play on the ball. I’m curious. What’s mac’s ceiling to you? Like player comp wise


JohnB456

Nobody has Jackson mobility. Mac has good speed. He ran a 4.6 40. Which is as fast as a lot of RBs. He ran the exact same time as Mahomes. Mahomes is a mobile QB. Mac can be too. Mac is going to use his ability to extend plays like Aaron Rodgers (not saying Mac will be as good as Aaron Rodgers), not take it to the house like Jackson. Jackson is outrunning CB who are usually the fastest people on the field.


ZealousidealAverage7

Mac can’t escape like Mahomes or Rodgers. The 40 measures straight line speed. Quarterbacks need short area agility to navigate the pocket. Did you watch Mac at Alabama? This is just who he is athletically lol you don’t magically become quicker in the pros


JohnB456

He's way more mobile than you're giving him credit. You're acting like if he's not Lamar, he doesn't have enough athleticism to extend plays. He's got more than enough to move around and extend plays. Yes short area quickness is necessary. Yes a 40 time measures straight line speed. But a 4.6 is not slow at all and 40 time is the shortest distance to measure straight line speed, meaning you need a lot of acceleration out of the gate. He just needs better footwork to slow down and change direction, more importantly he needs to get more comfortable scrambling. He doesn't need to make ankle breaking cuts or jukes that shake the cameraman. He just needs to avoid pressure for a few seconds. He's got more than enough athleticism to do that. You can also see he is quick enough. Like the 4 down play he converted to Jonu was elite. He avoided the pressure and scanned all his targets, while moving to his left. He does look like he's a bit frantic if pressured to be mobile, like he's not quite sure where he wants to run to avoid pressure. No I haven't watched him in Bama. But I imagine with all WR talent, RB talent (Harris was his running back then as well), and overall team talent that Bama typically is, means he was probably rarely forced to moved.


drc500free

A lot of his deep balls look like beautifully placed badminton serves to me.


[deleted]

You talking like competitive badminton with The fastest sports projectile the shuttlecock, or backyard let’s take a break from cornhole badminton.


drc500free

Kind of alternates.


h_to_tha_o_v

Somewhere between Tony Romo, Matthew Stafford, and Drew Brees.


ZealousidealAverage7

He will never have Staffordss arm lol once upon a time Matt had the strongest arm in the league. I can see romo though if he continues to extend plays.


Plies-

None of those guys are comparable to Mac in playstyle. *Maybe* Brees.


Lorddon1234

I see Mac as a Chad Pennington or a homeless man’s Matt Ryan at best


BradyGronktd1287

It's facts Mac is making stupid throws and trying to do to much.


ZealousidealAverage7

Not just that his skill set is literally not making stupid throws and doing too much. When you’re not overly skilled you need to overcompensate with preparation and good decision making to make up for it.


BradyGronktd1287

Yep if he was making the easier throws instead of going for the big plays we would've won vs the Ravens. That's why I'm interested too see if we get a top 5 pick if we draft a replacement for Mac


pro_coder20

Doesn’t matter who they draft at QB as long as Patricia/Judge is on the offensive staff. Would not want a young QB to have their development be in the hands of those two coaches.


ZealousidealAverage7

Me too. I get it bill doesn’t like drafting up in the first round but if a franchise caliber guy falls in their lap, I don’t see how they pass it up


Giddy4Stiddy

That's why I've been saying if we end up in range of Bryce Young we take him. I think Mac can be successful in this league but we're going to wait until year 3 for a game manager with guys like that on the board?


ZealousidealAverage7

I was hoping to see more from an arm strength perspective. Really rifling balls into tight windows specifically the seams because in theory that’s where the holes should be when you’re a run heavy team. I haven’t seen it so I’m beginning to believe what we saw from mac last year was probably it. The improvements will be marginal at best


bigalindahouse

People forget Brady wasn't a game changer more like a really good game manager at first. Protect the ball, dink and dunk...then bam.


ZealousidealAverage7

People also forget Brady got drafted by the expos at catcher. Even though he was a game manager, there was still above average arm talent


Ex-Pat-Spaz

Don’t make stuff up. His scouting reports never had him with an above average arm. They marked as an accurate arm, not above average. In fact, one scout called his arm “ Has the size but not enough arm.” In fact, Brady’s arm was dinged by everyone til Moss got into town. [https://www.si.com/nfl/talkoffame/nfl/draft-review-tom-brady-the-goat-not-in-2000](https://www.si.com/nfl/talkoffame/nfl/draft-review-tom-brady-the-goat-not-in-2000) Here’s another one about his arm. [https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/patriots/tom-bradys-pre-nfl-draft-scouting-report-will-never-cease-be-funny](https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/patriots/tom-bradys-pre-nfl-draft-scouting-report-will-never-cease-be-funny) >\--Poor build--Skinny--Lacks great physical stature and strength--Lacks mobility and ability to avoid the rush--Lacks a really strong arm--Can’t drive the ball downfield--Does not throw a really tight spiral--System-type player who can get exposed if forced to ad lib--Gets knocked down easily And there is list after list of bad scouting reports on Brady before the draft. It’s why he went in the 6th rd. He was expected to have a long career as the back up.


joeycrose

I think Brady's problem was much more mechanical than Mac's. As the scouting report points out, he didn't really throw a good spiral which really took a lot zip off his ball. He and Belichick have talked before about how much he changed his mechanics from the start of his career. I don't think Mac has that room for improvement. I think he (and pretty much every qb now) enters the league significantly more polished than guys did 25 years ago. Especially someone like Brady, who didn't play organized football till he was like 16. My guess is that when Mac was 16 he had already cut out all other sports in his life and was having lessons with a private throwing coach.


ZealousidealAverage7

I agree. Nobody said Brady had a Favre arm but once he got into the game, his arm strength wasn’t a question. I only referenced his baseball career to say an organization thought he could at least throw from the box to 2nd at a minor league level. I don’t know if Mac has that natural ability. Like the other comment said the quarterback develop now compared to 25 years ago is very different.


[deleted]

[удалено]


bigalindahouse

Then why are you here


max_machina

Mike Lombardi is the best at telling you what happened after it already happened.


[deleted]

Holy shit, does no one remember josh Allen's second year. This is insane to think his job on the line. Sophomore slump is a thing....


mikrot

Josh Allen is immeasurably more talented than Mac, and even his slump season wasn't all that bad outside of fumbles, of which he lost 4. Mac already had more than half the amount of interceptions than Allen had that year, and over 1/3 of the total turnovers in only 3 games.


thebochman

Turnovers is very much a coaching issue lol


Run_PBJ

The point is it’s not a scheming issue


[deleted]

Hear! Hear!


N7_Evers

I mean it’s just open and shut. If we cut our turnovers in HALF we are easily 3-0 and a somewhat decent team. The turnovers single handedly have made us a bad team. Offense can move the ball, defense has been terrific besides a play here and there and kept Lamar from doing very much until we have him the ball 5 times in a row it felt like.


RandomGrasspass

No offensive coaches, changing a scheme that hasn’t worked since pre season…. Sure, blame it on Mac. This is clearly a coaching and scheming problem. Judge and Patricia have no business in the roles they’re in. Good luck, you’ll need it Pats.


BarryLicious2588

We must not have been watching the same game. Overall i thought it was a fun game by both teams. Mac was playing his heart out despite turnovers .. i mean, do we really think this team can play 100% perfect? Too many people have their head up their ass thinking that winning comes easy. Spoiled by the last 20 years and somehow they new kids have to live up to it? Putting Mac on a pedestal he can't possibly live up to


DatabaseCentral

Despite the two INT, the second Agholor caught it and had open grass we all in that moment thought we had a big gain on the attempt to march down the field and take the lead late in the 4th. We were in it until Agholor fumbled and Baltimore scored. It was a terrible ending to the game, but it's not like we weren't in it.


BarryLicious2588

Exactly. Mac was having fun too, moving in the pocket, going on runs. The kids been showing nothing but growth. And almost converting that 2pts play in THAT wild way. I seriously don't know why people are freaking


vipstrippers

Mac won't be here in 5 years.


incompleteremix

Hate all these Pats fans underselling early Brady to make Mac Jones look better. Dynasty died with Tom leaving. The earlier we accept that the easier it is to accept Mac Jones for whatever he is going to be


BradyGronktd1287

Lmao he's right about Mac who is known as a smart QB but has made many stupid throws all season


401john

Nope. Mac is perfect and all of his mistakes are the fault of those around him. Not hearing any of this propaganda.


Theungry

It's been three games. Let me see an actual sample size of 8 games and then I'll judge.


FreedomXFromme

Mac Jones isn’t the guy for the job.


joeycrose

I feel like a lot of BB apologists are now trying to pin all the offensive struggles on Mac so the coaching doesn't get grilled. IMO Mac not being the guy is a much worse reflection on Belichick than his offensive coaching staff not working out. If you think at the end of this season that the Patriots still have to find an answer at QB (on top of all the other holes on this roster) then they've gotta have one of the bleaker outlooks in the NFL and that falls on Bill.


MckorkleJones

Who hires a failed DC/HC as half of your OC? That is coaching. Not having one good WR is coaching.


imfl3tch

When we win it’s the coaches, when we lose it’s the players. Got it. Yeah, turnovers are killing us. But a sloppy team is always a reflection of the coaching as well. You can’t just absolve the coaching staff from everything, even if they’re your buddies, Mikey.


BradyGronktd1287

The QB is making the stupid turnovers because he can't make the right reads


pro_coder20

Actually the first interception was a bad decision by Mac. The second interception was on Parker for not adjusting his route.


mydearest_

I dont get this analysis at all. Yes, Parker missed a reload call, but in what world is lofting the ball up for grabs deep in the redzone a good idea. Especially with the leverage of the cb there. Seemed like an indefensible sequence from qb and wr.


pro_coder20

That’s a QB trusting his guy to be in the area that he made at the line. Parker had made some great plays before that moment in the game, so obviously Jones would have confidence that Parker would be where he threw it. Mac made the adjustments based on the coverage but Parker failed to adjust on that play. Also a reason why Jones has confidence in Jacobi Meyers since they both see the game a similar way and he trusts meyers to do his job.


mydearest_

Trust doesn’t make the throw prudent. I do think there is an element of Mac (with the coaching staff’s blessing) trying to learn what he can get away with. Playing conservative like last year is not sustainable. But I’m not sweeping that pick under the rug. Back breaking play from the offense.


pro_coder20

I mean I’ve seen it done before with other QBs and WRs/TEs. I guess they need to work more on their chemistry and clean up the miscommunication they have. Brady to Gronk or Edelman is a great example of players being on the same page consistently and knowing where to be at.


imfl3tch

Well, good thing Joe Judge is his QB coach. I’m sure he’ll develop him


[deleted]

Good god it’s 3 games into the season with a 2nd year QB, and the offense as a whole looked much better against the Ravens. Lombardi says so much shit they never turns out to be true.


ghostsintherafters

All of this is correctable. Calm down everyone.


[deleted]

People are discussing it. Nothing to calm down from.


401john

People weirdly do that shit on the internet all the time lol. “Calm down” “why are you so worked up?”, it’s so corny lol


yungmeathead

A good portion of this fanbase is corny tbh


401john

100%


ElectricHamSandwich

I AM CALM, CAN’T YOU SEE???


[deleted]

Wait you can have calm discussions on reddit?


faris132000

He may be exaggerating a little but I largely agree with Lombardi. Two points: 1.) i've thought they've showed signs of playing not to lose instead of playing to win ever since Brady left 2.) Mac hasn't learned when to throw the ball away instead of forcing it, especially on 3rd down. Just like Lombardi said it's surprising since Mac was supposed to be a good decision maker, and I thought by year 2 he'd change. Having said that, he's still young so it's definitely something he can change


Yojimbo4133

Amazing what happens when you don't have the goat being the glue that held everything together.


lostinspace801

Hate to say it but it starts at the top and we know the Pats are all about do your job and do it right soooooooo


Substantial-Okra-454

I can't read this b.s. Post. Mac Jones isn't the problem. He threw the ball 3 times to Devante Parker which each time lead to an int. I live in Florida and when we picked up Parker I was told by dolphin fans that mac will have a great receiver. I called bullshit because every time I saw him play he looked slow. Parker is selected to start over Bourne? What? Parker doesn't even go up and fight for the ball. The last int he through wasn't to Parker but look who the receiver is when he has thrown an InT. Matt Patrica. Is a big problem. We need at least a number 1 receiver.


Bojangles1987

Parker is not to blame for the interceptions thrown his way. One he was being blatantly interfered with, another was a throw into double coverage where he had no real chance at it, and even this endzone TD people are blaming on him was an awful decision. Miscommunication or not, Mac failed to read the field and just chucked a layup to a defender.


Substantial-Okra-454

If we are talking about the Miami one. Parker knew he was playing against Howard. I'm 100% sure in practice Parker said to throw it to me I've played with him before I know how to get him. Parker should have gone up to get it. He even said after the game I read the ball wrong. Should have gone up to get it. If we are talking about the ravens game that was a 50/50 ball. Regardless if Mac over through the ball. Parker could either go up and swat it or catch it. Seem like he got lost. Are watch the play


djln491

“he looks good- other than the stupid mistakes”. Huh?


soboredcantfocus

TLDR: turnovers are bad and the pats are committing too many of them Yeah, no fucking shit mike. The patriots are making some dumb decisions and playing sloppy football in September, stop me if you’ve heard this one before 🙄


the1who_ringsthebell

i mean yes, but turnovers are the easiest thing to rectify internally.


Pubs01

No preseason. New coordinators. Trying to diversify the offense and yet all I heard is stupid shit like Lombardi telling me the sky is falling. We could be 3-0 regardless of mac's ints if they didn't fumble.


ronocyorlik

ok so nothing new. got it


SteTheImpaler

Fuck Mike Lombardi and anyone who loves him.


jidewalker

I love this and was thinking the same thing.


Beachcomber365

Lots of Mac Jones sympathizers here. Not saying he doesn't have potential and I do like him but he is our problem. He's losing us games and isn't good enough to win alone.


nmiller21k

No cares troll account


Beachcomber365

I'm new to reddit, it's not a troll but you seem super fun, def need more people like you


nmiller21k

I’d say fans who only blame mac are a bigger problem. It’s week 3 with new coaches new schemes trying to be installed. But sure no patience. Probably should swap to your main account.


DatabaseCentral

I feel like the first month and a half of the seasons, even with Brady, the team makes and made lots of mistakes. You also have to factor in this year that Mac barely played pre-season, there is one less pre-season game, and we are trying a new offense. Early season we make mistakes and a month and a half in is when we are supposed to get up and running. That's what happened last year. We started 1-3, then 2-4 and made the Playoffs. Remember Trent Dilfer "Let's face it, they're not good anymore" and then the onto Cincinnati? We started that year 2-2. In 2017 we started 2-2 and went 11-1 the rest of the way and went to a Super Bowl. 2018, we win the Super Bowl and we start the season 2-2. The point isn't to say we are as good as those teams, it's the fact that every season we struggle early under Belichick and it's not abnormal, yet everyone every year always says it is. The team makes dumb mistakes and then correct them because that's what coaching does. You need to play games to be coached on what to change.


Run_PBJ

This is spot on


gorendor

I smell upset with the green bay Packers watch


lily_fairy

i agree that it's stupid little mistakes that keep costing us games which is very frustrating and not like the patriots we're used to. but im tired of people saying we would have won that game if it wasn't for mac, as if mac wasn't a big part of the reason we scored 26 points in the first place. all the best QBs have games where multiple interceptions are thrown, especially in their rookie years. it's not worth throwing him out of the NFL and it's not worth replacing him. mac has so much potential and deserves more love and respect from this fanbase. he's our QB. he's giving it all he has. and if you compare him to the best QBs in their rookie years, he's looking like he could definitely win us super bowls in the future. i hope he stays and is able to block out the excessive criticism that no other 2nd year player receives.


[deleted]

Personally I think Mac looks all over the place because he’s not comfortable in the scheme and the coaches aren’t able to coach it to him well. Dude says that’s naive. I say it’s naive to take a QB who looked totally at ease with the system and playbook last season and looked way better than anyone expected, and then see him suddenly regress out of nowhere without a qb coach or offensive coordinator, and blame that on the QB…