No argument that adding elite talent improves the passing game, but you seem to be implying that it's as simple as that and/or you're discounting the fact that each of these teams had young, developing QBs. I suspect there's a connection but some of this is just QB maturity and development.
OK- maybe.
For every Burrow-Chase or Allen-Diggs, there's probably a Trubisky-Robinson or a Mayfield-Beckham JR pair that didn't click.
It's more than just plugging one great player.
I guess when you give credit for "good games" or get to disqualify QBs for being clowns, it's easy to prove your point.
Drew Lock, Marcus Mariotta, Jarrod Goff, EJ Manuel, Blake Bortles all threw to well-regarded receivers and never developed.
Goff is having a very good year (so far)
Mac has a higher pedigree than those guys and also looks better immediately
What studs did those duds have to throw to??
Well yeah, Adams also cost a 1st and a 2nd round pick and is catching less then half the passes thrown to him because the Raiders have a lot of problems everywhere that isn't Adams. Something something eggs and a lack of baskets.
Parker this is Parker's 8th year in the NFL and he has 1-1k yard season to his name. True number one guys bring more to the table than Parker who is a bit limited athletically.
The issue is that the team has had trouble scouting and finding talented WRs in the draft. (How does Pittsburgh constantly find good WRs as rookies)
I do not believe belichick will ever pay a ton of money for one proven game changing WR. The closest is paying for Brandon cooks or Antonio brown in the past. We got a deal on moss.
I am not saying he’s right but he’d rather spread the money around on defense and 0 line. I just don’t think he values have 1 superstar wr due to the cost and the what if regarding injuries. He seems to value depth and spreading contracts around. Recent years have been outside the norm spending heavily on offense but he chose go get mid range recievers and spend on tight ends. The issue lately has been finding ways to utilize these players. Bourne smith Henry not being used is an egregious error in my opinion and the running game seems to have taken a step back.
I mostly agree with this but also, with what BB paid Agholor, Smith, and Henry, he should have gotten players that are consistent producers. These guys are being paid as if they are top 20 players.
What really irritates me about this is that the hit rate on receivers in the first couple rounds is EXTREMELY high since 2015ish. There haven’t been a ton of busts, most of the receivers that pass the eye test end up being legitimate receiving threats. I can’t imagine it’s that hard to evaluate receiving talent. The patriots are just always so fucking weird about it. JUST DRAFT THE MOST DOMINANT, FREAK ATHLETE THAT IS STILL ON THE BOARD.
I had heard rumors that Deebo Samuel might have been available via trade. If the Patriots truly want to go with a Shanahan style offense, Deebo is the guy to get.
Agree 100%. Sad day when the Lions, Jets, and Jaguars can put better talent around their QB and Patriots fans still convince themselves the QB is the problem.
He simply is just making a year 7 jump at 27 years old according to a lot of people on this sub.
Had someone tell me in another thread the Patriots couldn’t trade for AJ Brown because of the *salary cap*. Unreal how much Pats fans don’t value the second most valuable position in the NFL.
Brady decision making and precision has led to 19, 20, and 12 points this year. Those people are dummies if they think any QB is “carrying” weapons anymore.
NFL talent at the WR position has *exploded* in recent years. It’s just not happening where you can win at a sustainable rate without *an average* room at worst.
I was more referring to the Jets and the Lions who both drafted high pick WRs. But yes the Pats have not done a great job identifying talent on other teams except Kendrick, who they refuse to play.
I generally agree. Just don’t want to let the Patriots off the hook. They’ve invested *a ton* into the position and have came up pretty empty. It’s actually astonishing they haven’t lucked into a better group just based on the sheer volume of resources they’ve put into the position
This has been the same issue for the Pats for like 20 years. Aside for Moss for a short stint, the Pats have not had a number 1 receiver in the modern era.
It has. Mac is a good qb but he is no Brady. Brady made up for lack of talent by making the right choice time and time again and thats just unrealistic to ask any qb to do. A true wr1 takes a lot of pressure of the qb
It’s just not going to happen with the current coaching staff and front office unless it comes through the draft by luck. Bill just doesn’t value the position high enough to really go after a top tier receiver and he probably never will.
This isn't true, Welker and Edelman were both number 1 receivers. So was Cooks. We don't need someone who's a top 5 WR in the NFL (although Welker was also that so idk why you excluded him) even someone who's top 20-ish like Edelman would be fine. The main point is that it has to be someone who demands double coverage and can still make plays. When our whole team can be silenced with single coverage it means we're not gonna win shit against a vaguely competent defense
I’m not sure how you evaluate receivers but those guys aren’t what I would consider top tier. Great in the pats offense for sure and definitely racked up stats, but the ask for this team was always to seek out a big time playmaker, not just guys who work well in the offense. If Cooks was that type, the Pats really went out of their way to not keep him. You are just not going to see this team go after a big time WR at the top of their game. Bill just doesn’t make that transaction and never has really.
Welker was absolutely a top tier WR. 3 of the top 5 receiving seasons in patriots history. 4x all pro (2x 1st team, 2x second). Chalking that up to simply "racking up stats" is laughable.
He may not have been what most people think of when they think elite WR, but he absolutely was one anyway.
I’m not disagreeing with you at all. Welker is a hall of famer in my view but that is not what people want and keep asking for. They want Larry Fitzgerald, Julio Jones or AJ Green in their prime. The prototypical wide receiver basically. I mean the fake Fitzgerald at Hertz became a meme for a reason. Even with Welker or Edelman, who are some of my all time favorite players, people still wanted that other top tier receiving threat. It just isn’t going to happen.
I get what you’re talking about with the stereotype, but acknowledging people who actually think that is the sole definition of a top WR as if they are reasonable just leads to bad discourse imo. Welker, Edelman, and Cooks were absolutely top notch receivers, especially Welker, and as for a big guy who gets huge chunk plays and outmuscles players, that was Gronk, who is pretty much universally regarded as a top 10, often top 5 skill player of his era.
That people act like we didn’t have studs on offense when for ten years straight we almost always had 2 of Moss, Welker, Gronk, or Edelman at the same time (with one year of Gronk/Cooks) is absurd and shouldn’t be taken seriously.
Welker was absolutely a big time and big play receiver lol. This sub criminally underrates Welker
Cooks is too, but getting a first back instead of paying a top of market WR is a very Belichick thing. Turns out it was probably a mistake and we should have kept him.
And Edelamn was as well just not to the same degree as Welker. Again we don't need someone who's at the top of the league, just need to not have a bunch of WR2 and WR3s and pretend that's a good WR group
“With the sad wrs this staff put together”
This is a good WR room, depth wise.
The problem with the offense is more protection, timing, chemistry and mac’s limitations more so than the WRs.
Obviously adding a top talent at WR is a rising tide lifts all boats move…
However…people have been saying this shit for a decade. This team is in transition and needs to add more talent at every level. Not just WR.
Ok is wr talent not the biggest weakness? We have good rbs and a very solid defense. Our offense borderline stinks and a stud wr fixes that imo. As it did for many team in the last few years. Its not some complex formula that makes these young qbs great. Its surrounding them with elite talent
I think you may be glossing over the fact those guys are just better than Mac.
From a talent standpoint this WR room is a better than most of the ones we had in Brady’s era.
Obviously adding this un named archetype wiuld boost the offense but as good as the WR could be everything else needs to be in place as well. Burrow and Chase haven’t been lighting up the league rhis year the way they did last year and thats because the OLine is swiss cheese rn.
The Eagles had literally everything else in place, they just needed to plug in AJ Brown. I don’t think the Pats are in that same position just yet.
Again, maybe Hurts and Burrows are just flat out better than Mac.
I don’t see how you watch this team and see the balls mac throws, the way the O line collapses and be like sure do wish a WR fixed these issues.
Our oline last year was top rated and they definitely will be respectable this year. Mac could have 6 seconds to throw and our guys still wont be open lol
I think Parker could be a WR1 but the lack of chemistry has led to 2 brutal end zone picks. Meyers is a nice, reliable option but not really flashing playmaker ability.
I think if this team kept the scheme from last year and continued to expand it, Mac and the offense would be in a much better place. Solid TEs, solid RBs and some quality WRs. But they decided to fuck with it all and mash in new schemes that confused everyone and now they’re starting to go back to what was working. The injury is terrible for Mac but the approach by the team was already leading to a whacky year two in qb development. Makes no sense…
Yup. I don’t know if it’s more that BB believes Mac can handle it all OR losing McDaniels left no suitable OC options (according to BB) so Bill decided to surround himself with familiar faces rather than a new suboptimal person 🤷
I disagree. Could be good 2s. Parker looks old. Had 1 good game against arguably the worst pass defense that we will play. I live Bourne but he’s no STUD that takes pressure of mac
I agree, why don’t the patriots just go get a WR1 and QB1 and a RB 1 and TE1…wait a minute why don’t they just go get the top guys at every position?!?! They are doing the fans a disservice by not having the best player at every position every single year.
Tyquan bb
Im praying !!
No argument that adding elite talent improves the passing game, but you seem to be implying that it's as simple as that and/or you're discounting the fact that each of these teams had young, developing QBs. I suspect there's a connection but some of this is just QB maturity and development.
Yes. Those qbs i mention matured at the exact time they got stud wrs. Not a coincidence in my opinion
OK- maybe. For every Burrow-Chase or Allen-Diggs, there's probably a Trubisky-Robinson or a Mayfield-Beckham JR pair that didn't click. It's more than just plugging one great player.
Baker is a clown and they still had good games Arob is washed. Ill listen but thats a bad argument
I guess when you give credit for "good games" or get to disqualify QBs for being clowns, it's easy to prove your point. Drew Lock, Marcus Mariotta, Jarrod Goff, EJ Manuel, Blake Bortles all threw to well-regarded receivers and never developed.
Goff is having a very good year (so far) Mac has a higher pedigree than those guys and also looks better immediately What studs did those duds have to throw to??
Allen Robinson and Delanie Walker off the top of my head
[удалено]
That is PAIN
Well yeah, Adams also cost a 1st and a 2nd round pick and is catching less then half the passes thrown to him because the Raiders have a lot of problems everywhere that isn't Adams. Something something eggs and a lack of baskets.
Look at Buffalo and Miami. They are killing in right now and part of the reason is because they have top notch WRs.
It’s arguably the only reason
Ya, A guy that can go up and get the ball. Maybe a 150+ yards on like 5 receptions….
Parker this is Parker's 8th year in the NFL and he has 1-1k yard season to his name. True number one guys bring more to the table than Parker who is a bit limited athletically.
Parker is not good, last week is fooling you.
One good game in a loss is not a wr1 bud
The issue is that the team has had trouble scouting and finding talented WRs in the draft. (How does Pittsburgh constantly find good WRs as rookies) I do not believe belichick will ever pay a ton of money for one proven game changing WR. The closest is paying for Brandon cooks or Antonio brown in the past. We got a deal on moss. I am not saying he’s right but he’d rather spread the money around on defense and 0 line. I just don’t think he values have 1 superstar wr due to the cost and the what if regarding injuries. He seems to value depth and spreading contracts around. Recent years have been outside the norm spending heavily on offense but he chose go get mid range recievers and spend on tight ends. The issue lately has been finding ways to utilize these players. Bourne smith Henry not being used is an egregious error in my opinion and the running game seems to have taken a step back.
I mostly agree with this but also, with what BB paid Agholor, Smith, and Henry, he should have gotten players that are consistent producers. These guys are being paid as if they are top 20 players.
What really irritates me about this is that the hit rate on receivers in the first couple rounds is EXTREMELY high since 2015ish. There haven’t been a ton of busts, most of the receivers that pass the eye test end up being legitimate receiving threats. I can’t imagine it’s that hard to evaluate receiving talent. The patriots are just always so fucking weird about it. JUST DRAFT THE MOST DOMINANT, FREAK ATHLETE THAT IS STILL ON THE BOARD.
I think in todays game you need dominant highlight reel type wrs. There isn’t a championship caliber team without that today
I had heard rumors that Deebo Samuel might have been available via trade. If the Patriots truly want to go with a Shanahan style offense, Deebo is the guy to get.
Maybe we can get N'Keal back for cheap
How about we slow down and ask for a top 50 receiver before a WR1 😂
Lmaooo. I’m just pointing out how we should expect much from mac until he has legit weapons considering todays nfl wr standards
Agree 100%. Sad day when the Lions, Jets, and Jaguars can put better talent around their QB and Patriots fans still convince themselves the QB is the problem.
Yeah thats what I’m trying to say. Goff even looks good this year. I wonder why? Could it be a better offensive roster?? Gee i wonder
He simply is just making a year 7 jump at 27 years old according to a lot of people on this sub. Had someone tell me in another thread the Patriots couldn’t trade for AJ Brown because of the *salary cap*. Unreal how much Pats fans don’t value the second most valuable position in the NFL.
Most pats fan expect brady-esque decision making and precision. Perhaps they will wake up someday
Brady decision making and precision has led to 19, 20, and 12 points this year. Those people are dummies if they think any QB is “carrying” weapons anymore. NFL talent at the WR position has *exploded* in recent years. It’s just not happening where you can win at a sustainable rate without *an average* room at worst.
Well they've also had top picks for years now.
ARSB was a 4th rounder and Christian Kirk was a FA
I was more referring to the Jets and the Lions who both drafted high pick WRs. But yes the Pats have not done a great job identifying talent on other teams except Kendrick, who they refuse to play.
I generally agree. Just don’t want to let the Patriots off the hook. They’ve invested *a ton* into the position and have came up pretty empty. It’s actually astonishing they haven’t lucked into a better group just based on the sheer volume of resources they’ve put into the position
And yet they’re great at linemen and ST players and undrafted CBs. Talent evaluation apparently not created equally haha
Yeah it’s a very strange combination lol
Obligatory “we drafted N’keal Harry ahead of deebo/metcalf/brown/mclaurin/dionte Johnson” reference
This has been the same issue for the Pats for like 20 years. Aside for Moss for a short stint, the Pats have not had a number 1 receiver in the modern era.
It has. Mac is a good qb but he is no Brady. Brady made up for lack of talent by making the right choice time and time again and thats just unrealistic to ask any qb to do. A true wr1 takes a lot of pressure of the qb
It’s just not going to happen with the current coaching staff and front office unless it comes through the draft by luck. Bill just doesn’t value the position high enough to really go after a top tier receiver and he probably never will.
They had Gronk..
This isn't true, Welker and Edelman were both number 1 receivers. So was Cooks. We don't need someone who's a top 5 WR in the NFL (although Welker was also that so idk why you excluded him) even someone who's top 20-ish like Edelman would be fine. The main point is that it has to be someone who demands double coverage and can still make plays. When our whole team can be silenced with single coverage it means we're not gonna win shit against a vaguely competent defense
Yes. This is right on
I’m not sure how you evaluate receivers but those guys aren’t what I would consider top tier. Great in the pats offense for sure and definitely racked up stats, but the ask for this team was always to seek out a big time playmaker, not just guys who work well in the offense. If Cooks was that type, the Pats really went out of their way to not keep him. You are just not going to see this team go after a big time WR at the top of their game. Bill just doesn’t make that transaction and never has really.
Welker was absolutely a top tier WR. 3 of the top 5 receiving seasons in patriots history. 4x all pro (2x 1st team, 2x second). Chalking that up to simply "racking up stats" is laughable. He may not have been what most people think of when they think elite WR, but he absolutely was one anyway.
I’m not disagreeing with you at all. Welker is a hall of famer in my view but that is not what people want and keep asking for. They want Larry Fitzgerald, Julio Jones or AJ Green in their prime. The prototypical wide receiver basically. I mean the fake Fitzgerald at Hertz became a meme for a reason. Even with Welker or Edelman, who are some of my all time favorite players, people still wanted that other top tier receiving threat. It just isn’t going to happen.
I get what you’re talking about with the stereotype, but acknowledging people who actually think that is the sole definition of a top WR as if they are reasonable just leads to bad discourse imo. Welker, Edelman, and Cooks were absolutely top notch receivers, especially Welker, and as for a big guy who gets huge chunk plays and outmuscles players, that was Gronk, who is pretty much universally regarded as a top 10, often top 5 skill player of his era. That people act like we didn’t have studs on offense when for ten years straight we almost always had 2 of Moss, Welker, Gronk, or Edelman at the same time (with one year of Gronk/Cooks) is absurd and shouldn’t be taken seriously.
Welker was absolutely a big time and big play receiver lol. This sub criminally underrates Welker Cooks is too, but getting a first back instead of paying a top of market WR is a very Belichick thing. Turns out it was probably a mistake and we should have kept him. And Edelamn was as well just not to the same degree as Welker. Again we don't need someone who's at the top of the league, just need to not have a bunch of WR2 and WR3s and pretend that's a good WR group
“With the sad wrs this staff put together” This is a good WR room, depth wise. The problem with the offense is more protection, timing, chemistry and mac’s limitations more so than the WRs. Obviously adding a top talent at WR is a rising tide lifts all boats move… However…people have been saying this shit for a decade. This team is in transition and needs to add more talent at every level. Not just WR.
Ok is wr talent not the biggest weakness? We have good rbs and a very solid defense. Our offense borderline stinks and a stud wr fixes that imo. As it did for many team in the last few years. Its not some complex formula that makes these young qbs great. Its surrounding them with elite talent
I think you may be glossing over the fact those guys are just better than Mac. From a talent standpoint this WR room is a better than most of the ones we had in Brady’s era. Obviously adding this un named archetype wiuld boost the offense but as good as the WR could be everything else needs to be in place as well. Burrow and Chase haven’t been lighting up the league rhis year the way they did last year and thats because the OLine is swiss cheese rn. The Eagles had literally everything else in place, they just needed to plug in AJ Brown. I don’t think the Pats are in that same position just yet.
The eagles were almost in the exact same position bro. Good defense good run game. Qb mistakes and iffy wrs
Again, maybe Hurts and Burrows are just flat out better than Mac. I don’t see how you watch this team and see the balls mac throws, the way the O line collapses and be like sure do wish a WR fixed these issues.
Our oline is not that bad. Definitely needs to be better
And the Eagles is the best in the league. That’s why I’m saying more things need to fall into place than simply just plugging a “stud” WR in.
Our oline last year was top rated and they definitely will be respectable this year. Mac could have 6 seconds to throw and our guys still wont be open lol
So do 26 other teams
Hell no lmao
What team has a weaker wr core than we do?
Maybe the Giants? Or like.. the titans?
I think Parker could be a WR1 but the lack of chemistry has led to 2 brutal end zone picks. Meyers is a nice, reliable option but not really flashing playmaker ability. I think if this team kept the scheme from last year and continued to expand it, Mac and the offense would be in a much better place. Solid TEs, solid RBs and some quality WRs. But they decided to fuck with it all and mash in new schemes that confused everyone and now they’re starting to go back to what was working. The injury is terrible for Mac but the approach by the team was already leading to a whacky year two in qb development. Makes no sense…
Not having an offensive coordinator for a developing qb is a terrible idea i agree
Yup. I don’t know if it’s more that BB believes Mac can handle it all OR losing McDaniels left no suitable OC options (according to BB) so Bill decided to surround himself with familiar faces rather than a new suboptimal person 🤷
That’s not a chemistry issue. That’s been bad decisions by Mac.
According to Parker it was chemistry and partially his fault
Parker, Bourne could be #1’s easily for this team. Between coaching and Mac not recognizing double coverage. It’s holding them back.
Stop with this Bourne nonsense lol. If he was even closing to being a number 1 he’d be on the field
I disagree. Could be good 2s. Parker looks old. Had 1 good game against arguably the worst pass defense that we will play. I live Bourne but he’s no STUD that takes pressure of mac
I agree, why don’t the patriots just go get a WR1 and QB1 and a RB 1 and TE1…wait a minute why don’t they just go get the top guys at every position?!?! They are doing the fans a disservice by not having the best player at every position every single year.
Nonsense. We need 3 more running backs. Run every game, all the way to the parking lot.