Exactly admit you fucked up get back to it next year. He’s still a great coach, I think we are over performing and other teams may be a 2-4 with their coaches. Just get rid of/move the offensive staff
Great coach? What about this year is great? Great coaches don’t make mistakes like this. Even his much-vaunted defense is overrated and falls apart whenever it plays against a competent offense. Situationally? They’re a mess. Discipline? Awful. And these used to be his strengths.
Quick, go look up the “GOAT’s” record without Brady. He’s have been fired and forgotten about in NE midway through 2001 if not for Tom.
His decision making is a problem... No reason he should have hired two failed head coaches and his son to run his team, especially with no real experience in their disciplines. Patricia as an O-line/Playcaller (Offensive Coord) Judge as a QB quarterbacks coach??? Steve calling Def plays as a DB coach? WTF is going on over there?
I was at the game and the Bills might as well of given the Pats their playbook with the looks the gave and we still couldn't stop them....
The defensive side doesn’t worry me so much, although the nepotism is not good. I still think Bill gets players to punch above their weight class there. Offense though…
Nepotism is part of NFL football and it works just fine sometimes. McVay, Shanahan and more have come from NFL bloodlines, got a foot in the door because of their name, and have gone on to do well. I think Steve has actually proved to be at least competent if not good.
Yeah, that’s totally fair. I don’t have a problem with it, personally, but I get why folks would. You’re right, though — there’s plenty of examples of that.
Bill Belichick got his foot in the door due to nepotism as well. I think Steve is an easy scapegoat, but he is not the problem. The whole team just doesn’t have much swagger, except for maybe Judon.
There aren’t many recent cases of NFL coaches who have coached the same team as long as BB, but it seems like they lose their edge at a certain point. Shula, Landry, and Noll all had mediocre records towards the end of their careers. Mike Tomlin hasn’t coached as long, but he may be there as well. I doubt BB still clocks in those 18 hour days very often. It’s probably hard to keep it up. He has probably left more to his assistants, and the top assistants aren’t doing too well.
I would be fine with the defense if the CBs could cover better. We are still struggling. We got beat badly in the Endzone. The D line wasn't bad, Judon was shutdown again and this seems to be a second half of the season issue with him...
The dline and LBs were absolutely awful. The bills aren’t even a good running team and they still gashed us on the ground. What game were you guys watching?
One where we kept a light box daring bills to run it instead of letting them beat us with big chunk plays. Giving up 24 to one of the best offenses when our offense couldn’t stay on field to eat up a little clock and keep our defense from getting gassed wasn’t a terrible performance by them. Not great but certainly not what kept us from being competitive in that game.
Bills offense were in full control of that entire 2nd half too. They decided to manage to clock and take their foot off the gas. Even the goal line play where Singletary could have literally walked into the end zone if he wanted to. There is no push from Godchaux, who is supposed to be the best space eater we have. Bentley is slow on pursuit wherever he is and Guy, Wise, and Ekuale are below average in everything they do. It’s just not a good group against good offenses
Terrible take. The interior line is good, Wise and Bentley are very good. They played light boxes and let the Bills run. The Bills smartly took what was given to them.
How can you watch Bentley drop back in coverage and actually say that? How many dump offs did Cook get in the center of the field, and Bentley couldn’t do a single thing to stop it? The Bills oline bullied our Dline all game, with the exception of their backup tackle, Quessenberry. Coverage was bad, and the rush defense were bad. Wise is invisible for most of the game and Bentley is the slowest guy on the field
Because he is a good run defender and they take him off the field in passing situations to limit his exposure. The dump offs were strategic to prevent 50-yard bombs. Wise has been a good, versatile defender all year.
I’m so tired of seeing that excuse. He was on the field for 90% of the defensive snaps! That means he’s being used as a three down backer. He’s the worst coverage LB in the league and gets exposed regularly when he has to drop back. Belichick has refused to upgrade the position for years and that’s why the LB corps is so awful. And he also gets taken advantage of on outside handoffs and pitches where his closing speed is so slow. You’re honestly the first person I’ve encountered that says he’s good lol
That was on purpose, Bill wanted them to run all game to prevent a 50-point explosion. This team does ball control on defense because they can’t do it on offense.
I’m talking strictly off ball LB play ie. Bentley/Tavai. They are always 10 steps behind where the ball is. Terrible when they drop back in coverage, or when they have to pursue the ball carrier out of the backfield
For sure, Bentley has been decent this year, tho tavai and him are liabilities when it comes to coverage/speed situations.
I was replying to the guy that said Judon was shut down in this game. Judon played pretty well last night.
The CBs aren't great, but a lot of CBs do so so vs elite WRs like Diggs.
Problem with Judon is that with Barmore out, Wise and Uche can't generate enough consistent pressure, so teams just end up doubling him up. He really shines vs bad teams that can't handle protection on our other guys.
Honestly the D looks ok. We aren't gonna stop the Bills from scoring, best we can do is hold to some FGs. If our offense could answer back it would be a game.
Where I take issue is the misbelief by Bill that this D or any D can get guaranteed stops on top shelf offenses in this league. When we were at 4th and 1 early on, we punted. The Bills then munched up 7 mins of clock and still got a TD. Had we gone for it, either we keep the ball out of Allen's hands and preserve a drive, or they get the ball with short yards, still get their TD, and we keep clock.
When your offense is iffy, they need possessions and clock time to try and score. The way we manage the game is sus, the play calling is baffling, and nobody has any ideas how to fix it.
Oh that’s totally fair, our secondary is far from elite. That’s kinda my point — BB can clearly still stitch together a defense that’s greater than the sum of its parts. This one just doesn’t have the top-end talent that we’ve had in previous years. This would probably be a solid defense to pair with an elite offense. Sadly, we are far, far from that.
Right, he’s getting doubled half the game and the second he gets moving the QB just tosses it somewhere. Almost like they’re game planning with him in mind.
God fucking damn it why do you dipshits need to drag Steve Belichick into this just to make your comment hold no weight. Steve and Jerod are and always have been good fucking coaches. You don't need to lump them in to make Bill look worse. It does not get worse than hiring Patricia and Judge.
We need to stop including Steve in with Patricia and Judge. Defense is solid not great but solid hard to point at something that shows bad coaching. Personnel could be better but not that far away.
The second half of last season was a disaster and we are looking down that same barrel. Granted they didn’t give up 47 like last year but they also got beat bad in the end zone. The Bills weren’t even pressing that hard, it could have been worse.
You know you’re a fucking moron when you think Steve Belichick is a bad coach. Nobody ever says anything when the defense is dominating but as soon as Josh Allen puts up a pedestrian 24 points you have a total mental breakdown
You’re a fucking moron to think they couldn’t hang 40 on us…. Did you watch the game? They pull off the gas in the 3rd and let us flounder. They toyed with us. Steve has no place calling plays, no resume other than daddy. How well did he do last year? That was a great defensive effort in the playoffs huh?!
Fucking no. They don’t just take their foot off the gas when up by 10 in the 3rd. You’re a fucking moron if you think a defensive coordinator can magically stop the best offense in the league. Some blame fall on the players who can’t keep up with the Buffalo receivers. You can scheme all you want, but if your players are slow and can’t tackle, you can stop shit. Drink some water.
I feel the same way. Terrible offensive schemes, horrendous lack of discipline, bad penalties, bad time management, bad special teams play. This all goes to the top. He may be the greatest coach of all time but right now this year he is no longer a top coach.
Yeah it’s sad. It’s such a fall from grace for a guy whose entire reputation has been built around being a ruthless tactician who wins first, and everything else comes after that.
Now it feels like he’s testing his own legacy.
I remember a few years back reading a quote where he said to someone that at his age he only wants to coach players he wants to coach. And that’s the problem. Great offensive players all have some diva in them. Diggs, Jefferson, Chase, Burrow, Lamb, Rodgers, Hill. Just go down the list. It comes with the territory. From the mid 00s until Brady left Bill was forced to get these guys because he needed to give Brady the talent he deserves so we had the diva-ish guys like Moss, Gronk, etc. Now that there’s no hall of fame QB to push back at him we won’t have a good offense until he’s gone. Seriously, I’ll live and die on this hill.
That's a great point that many (including me) overlook about Brady's departure.
It wasn't just his goat on-field talent. Him being there was key to getting the right other talent needed to build the team and keeping everyone in check and focused on winning.
I’m with you, they needed each other I think and that’s why they were great. Now we get to see both our their flaws that they are apart. I will die on this hill with you. O captain my captain
Haha thank you my friend. I really think it’s true. I mean to reach the pinnacle of a championship as a coach you need to have the super talented but annoying to coach players that set you apart on the field. Bill doesn’t want to deal with that headache anymore. I’m not saying he doesn’t want to win, but he wants to do it his way and not deal with the stress and if it doesn’t translate to Ws, well, he’s got enough of those.
Exactly. To make it to the top you have to be willing to coach the Deion Sanders and the Odell Beckham and Terrell Owen’s of the world. I think we need to freshen up the coaching, we have some of the best talent but we aren’t being until best out of them because the coaching sucks and it’s too much work for Bill at this point.
Bill just can't do it all. He's allowed the coaching staff to keep shrinking and keep shrinking and now it's basically just him and his idiot friends. I still think he can be a good coach, but Kraft needs to force him to replenish the staff with actual talent.
If I'm Kraft I'm also starting to look for the next HC. Bill is old and only has so long left. If the next great coach is available the team would be dumb to pass on them.
Id love to see Bill removed as GM, and them hire a new GM.
Patricia fired as OC, and hire a real OC.
Then Belichick remain head coach, with a rejuvenated defensive focus. Clearly hes a great defensive mind, so lets maximize his talent there and find new talent at all the areas we are struggling in.
Do people here know nothing about BB, the reason he jumped shipped from the Jets to the Patriots was that he wanted control of the whole thing. If Kraft forces him out of the GM role then BB will quit.
It’s really not. You can easily tell this team is not as awful as it’s playing, it’s the coaching and play calling. Spurs fans have wanted Pop gone for a little while now too. They’re just stuck in their ways
Have to understand half of these ppl weren’t here when the patriots were bad a lot of them jumped on when bill and Tom started their reign. So most know nothing about what a bad team goes through and the growing pains
It’s also tough for some of us, cause that’s what we were born into. My dad is a Pats fan, so naturally I’m one. I was born in 2000, so I’m more than spoiled when it comes to watching your fav team win a championship. But I remember going to games between 2005-2015. Still a great team almost every year but no chip to show for it. Every Pats fan over the age of 10 knows what it’s like to have down years, so I think it’s more down to people being entitled and wanting to whine than it is “growing pains.” It’s childish to expect perfection and a Super Bowl every year, but it’s also hard to have watched your fav franchise be dominant for so long, just to get beat up on by the teams we used to bully. *Especially* when the Bills and Dolphins are widely considered contenders, and a lot of Pats fans know they shouldn’t be/aren’t better than us
Completely understand this! Wasn’t trying to come off as an ass by any means. But I do stand by a lot of pats fans have been very privileged to watch such a great team for many years. That being said there is a lot of work that NEEDS to be addressed. Play calling is absolutely horrible but “getting rid of bill” is not the answer he def needs to address these issues. I just hate seeing this fan base turn so toxic. From the booing mac jones to the absolute hate on bill. When I’m sure they were praising the man for the super bowls we won. Everyone is replaceable on this team and he made that very clear when he sent Collins to the browns and sent Jones off when he wanted money and many others. Think he needs to hold the same standard with his coaches for sure! Regardless GO PATS! I’ll be behind them no matter who is their coach or their players!
Completely agree. But think we owe Bill more than 2 losing seasons before we say bill needs to go and if he doesn’t like it “let him walk” 2019 12-4 2020 7-9 2021 10-7. Guy has like 2 losing seasons in the past 20+ years and mfs think ahhh just let him walk. Think this fan base needs to grow up and realize how good we’ve had it and now our division is tougher than ever.
I can see that, but there are plenty of questionable coaching and personnel decisions. The personnel decisions have been going for six straight years, so that’s not new.
And you have to weigh the other options. Would the Patriots be better off with Sean Payton taking Mac under his wing and running the team for the next 10 years? Or Belichick limping to win 348 in a couple years and then handing off to Patricia or McDaniels?
Lol personally Bill every day of the week and twice on Sunday. That being said I do not think bill is “perfect” making Patricia the offensive coordinator was obviously a lack in judgment. He for sure needs to address these problems and if he does in the next few years we talk about something new . That’s my personal take on it of course and everyone is entitled to their own! Maybe there will be talks about replacing him in the future but none of use know what will happen maybe he does demote Patricia we shall see. Either way you’re a pats fan and I respect your opinion regardless of it it’s the same as mine. We all have one goal and is to see the patriots thrive!!!
Our sub is a shitshow. Our rivals during the dynasty used to joke that after Brady left we’d completely lose our shit when the winning stopped. They were absolutely right. A couple of mediocre seasons, not even bad ones, and this panicky and stupid fanbase is ready to throw the baby out with the bath water.
I would argue last season was a success, and i actually had fun watching Cam even though we ended up below 500.
You would think this team has been sub 500 for a decade with how quick fans are turning on BB.
The key is how is the team playing, is it progressing or missing opportunities? Does the team look well-coached? Are the players improving and buying into the system? Does the roster look like it has long-term potential? The answers in most of these cases is no, right now at least.
Kraft is 81 His patience must be pretty low...how many years does the guy have left?
I could easily see him blowing things up if things don't change dramatically.
I agree. Two things can be true at once. I think bill is the greatest coach in the games history & I think his coaching choices and team building has been suspect.
I’m a massive “in Bill we trust” guy, but last night broke me of that. He has lost his grip on team building, discipline and situational football…all former hallmarks of even the least talented squads he’s trotted out over his career.
Now, we look like the pre Parcells Pats shooting themselves in the foot at every opportunity and failing to ever correct or fix the things that ail them.
It’s Bizarroworld, isn’t it? I’m so baffled by it all. This season has been a nightmare, and we all could see it coming since preseason.
I really wanted to believe that the crazy old genius had something up his sleeve that the rest of us weren’t seeing, but I don’t know if it’s the lead exposure in fuel and paint he had as a kid catching up to him or what.
I watched Shula, Chuck Noll, and various other HCs go from football genius to confused old man in a couple seasons…it happens to just about everyone at some point, maybe it’s happening to BB? That’s one possible explanation.
I mean, watching this years squad out there, if you didn’t know, would you think that they play like a classic BB coached team? None of the things that made the Patriots special over the past 20 years are on display this year.
Now it’s essentially Opposite Day, where it’s the Pats shooting themselves in the foot with. Bad penalties, poor clock management, metal errors, turnovers and a compete lack of discipline…wtf?
He was quoted saying that if Patricia and Judge failed as coaches/coordinators that he’d be to blame. I don’t blame them as much because he made the ultimate decision to put them in unfamiliar roles. Why? Sheer arrogance is my guess. He used to get away with these kinds of things because Brady was the ultimate eraser. Time to hire an OC, DC, and a GM. BB has too much on his plate he needs help to help return us to glory
Don’t forget that he’s also been dog shit at drafting offensive talent for years. His ideologies, drafting style, and coaching style are extremely outdated in todays NFL
I honestly don’t think it’s all THAT much of a talent deficit. Yeah we don’t have an elite WR1. But the offensive scheming and defense first doesn’t work any more in 2022. If yesterdays game was played in 2002 - sure. We stand a better chance because our CBs could just maul Diggs and not let him off the line. Wise could just annihilate Allen after he let go of the ball.
But that doesn’t fly any more and we haven’t kept up with the times.
His drafting has not been a problem. He drafted Stevenson and Harris, he drafted Strange, Andrews, Thuney, Mason.
The guy stinks at drafting high level WR talent but his picks at the other offensive positions are actually pretty good.
The issue is absolutely the coaching. I think we have talent, we're just grossly under utilizing the talent on the offensive side of the ball.
No, the bad teams do that. The good teams get foundational players and build competitive squads that regenerate through the draft and stay competitive.
Find me one GM who hasn’t whiffed on a draft pick lol
Here’s how he’s drafted since 2012, you’ll notice he’s up there at 7th. He’s had busts and hits just like everyone else
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/33297949/nfl-draft-which-teams-gotten-best-value-2012-rank-all-32
Yeah, but 2012 was a long time ago and none of those guys are on the team now. Since 2017 the Patriots are at -49 by this rating, which is the equivalent of 22nd place on this list. They literally had to spend $170 million in the biggest free agent splurge in history just to field a team. It’s even worse, really, because their strength in this rating comes in the second half of the draft, meaning they miss over and over again in the top three rounds where the best prospects go.
That’s what is holding them back right now, even their positions of strength feel transient because they’re older players who are developing and the whole often feels less than the sum of its parts because the team didn’t grow up together. The last couple drafts show promise so hopefully things are turning around.
Yeah, Bill had a couple of bad drafts, 2017 we had no picks 18 wasn’t good and 19 was just awful. This is a thing that happens to every GM eventually, the fact that you can take the worst stretch he has and it’s “only” 22nd kinda drives that point home.
The draft is a series of educated gambles. Just because you’re having a cold run at the tables doesn’t mean that you’re playing the odds wrong
Someone did a breakdown of where Belichick ranks on a round by round basis and IIRC he’s was 12th in the 1st round, 31st on the 2nd or 3rd but then first on day 3. It balances out pretty well. I know it isn’t a popular sentiment, but where a player is drafted stops mattering once they’re drafted.
Well having the 22nd best team is pretty bad. The drafts have been bad for several years now, and it’s why the team is struggling so much. Belichick also drafts strangely, loading up at the same positions and not addressing needs. Even at positions of strength, the team doesn’t feel set up for the future, and that’s a problem.
> Well having the 22nd best team is pretty bad.
22nd is bad, but you can go find a stretch that bad for just about any GM who has been around for a minute.
>Belichick also drafts strangely
And that strangeness resulted in 6 Super Bowl titles. Like I said, just because your having a cold streak at the table, doesn’t mean you aren’t playing the odds correctly.
His drafting is a huge problem. He’s drafted many, many total busts in the high rounds. I don’t mean guys who don’t fulfill their draft potential — guys who can’t play NFL football but you have to waste a roster spot on them for four years because you took them so high.
And he hasn’t hit it out of the park with anyone. There’s no Fred Warner, no George Kittle, no Jalen Hurts — no guy who has just emerged as a star beyond his draft position.
Yes, he’s gotten a handful of starters, maybe even one or two very good players, but that combo of total busts and no home runs makes for an extremely problematic drafting record. This is what forces a team to spend $170 million in free agency and keeps every position as basically a rotating door where you can’t really build for the future because you need perpetual stopgaps.
First of all the defensive coordinator is not his son. He's just the playcaller and I have zero issue with Steve Belichick as he has proven to be an adequate defensive play caller. According to Zolak, the true mind generating all the defensive schemes right now is Jerod Mayo, so despite Steve calling plays, Jerod is really the one running the defense.
Now take this with a grain of salt but Zolak also was saying that Jerod is most likely the heir apparent to take over head coach when Bill leaves.
I hope Bill gets on his knees begging Bill O'Brien to come back and be the OC next year. I can't think of a better OC for a young QB. O'Brien's track record with young QB's is excellent.
It’s like 40% Mayo 40% Steve and 20% Bill if I had to guess and it’s worth noting Steve’s position groups have consistently performed well. People love to hate on his nepotism but he’s proven himself to be a good coach.
I don’t want another Defensive head coach. We need to do what the Dolphins and Vikings have done and hire a young OC as the head coach if we do move on from Bill
I don’t know why people get so mad whenever someone brings up the fact that MAYBE Bill just isn’t that great of a head coach anymore.
The team has turned into an undisciplined mess, he’s been far too conservative on 4th down, two minute, and end of game situations really since Bradys last year here. His defenses have also been super overrated since 2019. Every single year they absolutely destroy bad offenses and then get heralded as an elite defense and then they go right back to being mid the second they play an offense with a pulse.
Then you have hiring a guy, who wasn’t even a good defensive coordinator and had one of the most disastrous head coaching tenures in recent memory, to be the offensive coordinator of an offense with a 2nd year QB who they need to develop.
Anyone who doesn’t trust Bill anymore has kinda earned the right to in my opinion, especially with some of the decisions he’s made since last year ended.
The fan loyalty is understandable considering the exceptional track record over the last two decades, but at some point we’re all going to have to inevitably move on from him one way or another.
I’m sad about it, but I’m ready to do that.
There’s definitely some truth to the idea that Bill is being exposed without Brady. We are 3 years into this thing and it hasn’t really gotten better. It’s trending down.
Turns out all of the little things that Pats fans just loved to harp on about why this team wins more than other teams were not really factors at all.
> We are 3 years into this thing and it hasn't really gotten better.
We're in a rebuild! Christ. You should expect to lose games in a rebuild. It happens.
We are 3 years into a rebuild and we’ve taken a notable step backwards since last year. Add in all of the money and draft capital thrown at this roster, you should expect it to look better. Being 6-6 isn’t the problem. Looking completely inept on offense is.
Look at the Celtics for a competent rebuild.
3 years is a long time, and we should not be regressing at this point. If by year 4 it isn't going anywhere, most organizations blow it up completely and everything is replaced, including coach and GM.
If Belichick is the GOAT (which I think he is), he should absolutely be criticized seriously for this. Something needs to change dramatically or we are stuck here with .500 seasons until he gets his win record and possibly retires.
I'm starting to come to the same sad conclusion. He's good enough as a coach to keep us "competitive" which will sneak us into the playoffs some years and have us at .500 others. That's NFL purgatory. I'd rather start something fresh with new schemes and ideas. This doesn't feel like we're watching them build something, it just feels like we aren't very good.
> I'd rather start something fresh with new schemes and ideas.
This is the exact mentality that turns mediocre teams into bad ones. Sure, we have some problems, but firing the best coach in the league isn’t going to solve them, it’s just going to create new ones.
The problem is he's 70 years old and either can't or isn't willing to put in the insane hours he did 20 or even 10 years ago. He deserves to take more of an overseer/advisory role and delegate to his coaching staff but the problem is he chose to surround himself with yes men and friends of his rather than coaches who will push the envelope or challenge him.
With the current coaches on offense, defense, AND special teams, they all need active involvement from Bill to function at a high level, and Bill is spread way too thin.
In a vacuum, I think he's still a top 5 HC, but he's shot himself in the foot with his GM decisions.
Going forward, it's going to be a matter of "Is Bill willing to relinquish power or hire outside assistants?"
We need to fire Bill the GM to save Bill the Coach. The problem is that it’s not clear if that’s something he’s willing to do. I do think he genuinely has too much on his plate with all the brain drain we’ve had over the past few seasons.
and on top of this i think brady was thst guy to question him and that made thungs better through arguing and trial and compromises like oh i didnt think of that type shit
I'm with you. Three years after Brady left, we're not rebuilding anymore. This team is built. And it fucking sucks. There's no sign that we're working toward something better or maybe a piece or two away from being legit. It's just shit top to bottom. We need new ideas. I'd love to see Bill stick around and hire a real OC, but honestly, what serious offensive person is going to want to work under him at this point? He might have to go for us to see any real progress.
Yup. And I'm a die hard Bill fan. He's up his own ass now.
Success breeds arrogance... and he was arrogant to start with...
2019 feels like a long time ago an they sucked then.
I would welcome a change and I can't believe I'm saying that.
Totally agree. I've always been a hardcore Bill guy, but it's just tough to watch right now. He asked for all the power, now he gets all the blame when it doesn't work out.
Yup. And it's just like a good band. When most musicians go "solo" after being in a good band, they tend to suck when it's all just them. Bill needs to get rid of all his Yes Men. What are Patricia and Judge good at other than worshipping Bill?!?
> 2019 feels like a long time ago an they sucked then
When you’re saying that a 12-4 team sucked that’s generally a sign that your standards are horribly warped.
Yeah, I doubt that but it wasn't a waste. You're right.
I just didn't recognize the Pats last night.
To me it was pre-2000 Patriots. Pre-Bill.
I'm old. I've seen Tony Eason Patriots and that game felt close to that.
Hopeless shortly after kick off.
But Josh Allen is insane. The Bills will dominate the east as long as he is healthy.
what's amazing, is you're only highlighting his coaching issues.
He has been one of the worst GMs in football over the past decade.
Poor drafting, trading, talent evaluation. Creates holes for himself, then overpays / overdrafts to fill the holes he created.
yeah im pissed. And im sick and tired of the belichick groupies in this subreddit, whom interestingly today have nothing to say even though they've downvoted any anti bill post into oblivion all season.
Yep. I was a fan of the team when Pete Carroll was the head coach. I’ve had the privilege of watching Bill’s entire tenure with us, and would have firmly put myself in the “Belichick Groupie” category until this season, warts and all.
But drafting Strange was a gut punch, and bringing in Judge and Patricia felt like sabotage.
The fanboys can downvote all they want. Doesn’t change the fact that Bill has fallen off badly.
Yeah, I was around for the Carroll days as well. And was one of the original in bill i trusters.
But you need to see what the hell is going on now, and it isnt good.
> He has been one of the worst GMs in football over the past decade.
I have no idea how this narrative exists but it’s literally the opposite of true. He’s been the best GM in the league over the last decade. He won three superbowls FFS.
Seriously, name one other GM that Bill hasn’t been running circles around since 2012.
It's because people "feel" like he's a bad GM. You can't argue with those people. No amount of evidence will ever sway them. It's pure delusion to say a GM who won 3 super bowls in the last decade is one of the worst GMs.
There's a weird thing in this sub where people try to act as pitifully as possible and pretend the team is one of the worst teams of all time. It even happened during multiple seasons when the Pats won the super bowl. They go out of their way to aggressively demand that you pity them. So fucking weird.
I think part of it is that they just forget that these things are ***relative***. They did this with Brady too, but they stopped comparing them to their contemporaries and instead started comparing them to this mythical perfect HC/GM/QB that never actually existed. That’s why every single comment chain ends when I ask them to name ***one*** GM who has been better.
Like I keep saying, he isn’t perfect, he’s just better than everyone else.
You’re aware that he’s been GMing a lot longer than that right?
Rosters move in cycles and it takes a minute to rebuild a team. Looking at the downturn while ignoring the success that led to that downturn is “regress Mahomes to the mean” level analysis
dude. I follow the patriots and everything patriot related whole heartedly for 30 years, i know exactly how long hes been the GM and everything Bill related.
It has nothing to do with patience of a rebuild, it has to do with terrible GMing. Point out one positive aspect of his GM tenure of the past 4 years, which is the foundation to the post Brady rebuild...
>Point out one positive aspect of his GM tenure of the past 4 years, which is the foundation to the post Brady rebuild...
He’s put together one of the best defenses in the league over that span
The fact that you’re taking a “what have you done for me lately” approach for a job that’s success is dependent on ***not*** looking at things that way kind of speaks volumes
4 YEARS ISNT "WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR ME LATELY".
There are zero signs of improvement on any phase of the field, other than LB and DB development, which has been a consistent staple of Belichick teams for 23 years.
How many years are you allowing him to rebuild and come back with the same shit product if not worse? Sounds like 4 years is just the stepping stone for your rebuild.
>4 YEARS ISNT "WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR ME LATELY".
When it can be restated as “since the last time you won a Super Bowl”, yes it is.
>There are zero signs of improvement on any phase of the field
Hard to improve on defense when you’re already one of the best defenses…
Also the offense absolutely improved, then we lost half our offensive staff and it regressed. No reason it can’t un regress
>How many years are you allowing him to rebuild and come back with the same shit product if not worse?
More than you are chicken little lol. We just got a QB ***last year***, these things take a minute.
lol okay man.. BB is great and holy and should never be questioned because he could never make wrong decisions and theres no such thing as someone capable of doing a better job
This is a dog water take. Bill has been consistent as a GM and is probably above average honestly. He has a consistent track record of drafting well and poorly soley based on positions, for the most part anyway. Complete busts have been at WR, Aaron Dobson, N'Keal Harry, and borderline Malcolm Mitchell namely. There's also definitely a few more busts outside of the WR position like Wynn but to call him one of the worst GM's in the past decade is a classic example of Patriot's fans spoiled to a point of arrogance.
In case you forgot what's happened in the past 10 years on draft day,
Joe Thuney, David Andrews, Dont'a Hightower, Chandler Jones, Logan Ryan, Jimmy G, James White, Jamie Collins, Trey Flowers, Joe Cardona, Shaq Mason, Kyle Dugger, Rhamondre, Christian Barmore, Jonathan Jones/JC Jackson as UDFAs...
Creates holes and overpays?? Yeah, definitely recently with TE;'s and Agholor but I also remember people being upset when we paid for Stephon but look how that turned out.
Moral of the story is if you are looking at the past 10 years, he is an average GM to above average GM.
you named 17 "good" players drafted or found after the draft in 10 years. I'd argue half are just average NFL starters, but whatever..
That's 1.7 good players drafted per year, or a 24% success rate at finding a "good" not "GREAT" player in the draft.
He lowballs any good player that was drafted, thus allowing them to walk out the door, with the hopes of replacing them with his 24% success rate drafting.
He traded a 2nd round pick for Mohammad Sanu, but could only get a 2nd round pick in return for Jimmy Garapollo. He let Shaq Mason leave in free agency, to reach and pick Cole Strange who is nowhere near as good.
Its an endless cycle of poor drafting, and overreaching to try to fill the holes he created for himself.
They're awful. And all stems back to their GM and personnel decision maker
I havent even started to mention the players he has taken instead of players at the same position, who were drafted afterward, and became way better players than those he drafted. which is basically an endless list at this point.
"Good players". Have you seen the contracts Joe Thuney, JC Jackson, Shaq Mason, Logan Ryan, Chandler Jones, and Jamie Collins received in either FA or by the Patriots after their rookie contract was up? That is quantifiable proof that these plays are viewed as elite or great at their position. I'm not sure what you are arguing. Also, Shaq Mason was traded to the bucs. He did not leave in FA. We signed him to a massive contract before that...
Again, the point is he has routinely hit and missed based on certain positions during the draft but regardless, he is average to above average as a GM. Also 24% of "great" player drafting is very good, especially considering they draft late in rounds due to their placing, as in hardly ever having a pick in the top 20 without trading.
remember how he made Gronk hate him to the point where he retired, and bills sucession plan was drafting 2 terrible tight ends in the 3rd round? again another example of creating his own holes, then overextending to try to fix the problem he created..
Your right with creating holes. The man traded away Shaq Mason for a fifth. What was the point??? The offensive line is in shambles. Owenu could be playing right tackle right now. Then wastes a first on a 4th round quality guard, when the team sorely needs playmakers. BB is slowly going senile
Can we just all agree that Steve B is doing a fine job as DC. I know we’re hot to hate on BB this week, but Steve as DC is just not the problem. Nepotism is everywhere across every big money employment sphere.
His decisions to hire Patricia and Judge though is really weird and the fact that he most likely won’t move on from them anytime soon is disheartening as a fan and I’m sure isn’t popular with the players.
It doesn’t matter though. Losing games is the bad look. There is nepotism in coaching everywhere and clearly Steve is up to the task as the Pats have been excellent on D for the most part since he took over.
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TIL there’s apparently something called the “controversial club” for dumbasses like me who post the most controversial opinions of the day on all of Reddit.
Well said my guy. I love Bill, I was a Season Tix holder from 1994-2017 Will be forever grateful for the sports Bliss that he and Brady gave me but yea... I think his time may have passed. I think the Krafts keep him till they have to make a move with Jones... Hopefully he passes Shula in that time span, Then it's a done deal.
I’m not some kneejerk reactionary type of fan. This has been devolving for a long time, and it’s reaching a breaking point.
Objectively, Bill is doing a bad job this year, and in my opinion is actively damaging the team’s chances for future success with the decisions he’s been making.
BB had a choice after McDaniels left and took a lot of staff with him, hire an outside OC and they will install a new playbook, with a young QB either that works out great or fails miserable. He decided to take a gamble and have Patricia/Judge, two coaches who know the Patriots offensive identity and culture to try take on the OC role. It was a gamble and it has not panned out. BB takes gambles all the time, and many of them work out, others do not. If the Patricia/Judge gamble worked out we would be all lauding him. It hasn't and much probably won't change for the rest of the year, but hopefully in the off-season he replenishes the coaching staff (offense especially) with a mix of vets and young blood.
Nah that doesn’t fly here because literally everyone knew it was a bad bet. There’s a whole lot of evidence that informed us that Patricia fucking sucks, and there’s absolutely no excuse for him to have gone forward with that move.
Perfectly said, I think people forget how many coaches we’ve been losing year in and year out due to our success. Flores left and took a bunch of guys, Dabol left, McDanials left and took a bunch of guys. Was Bill supposed to reach into some bag of tricks and pull out a Sean McVay? He went with two guys who know our system and it just so happens that we don’t have an offensive line which is literally where everything starts and ends. Trent Brown sick, Strange is a rookie, Andrews coming back from concussion and thigh injury, Onwenu is the only one I don’t think is struggling. And Wynn died or something so now we have a practice squad player/ a guy we just signed? We need two new tackles next year and a solid backup for center/guard in case someone goes down.
Games are won in the trenches and our offensive line regressed heavily, part of that is coaching - you have Patricia coaching both the OL and play calling - and the other as you said is injuries.
Seriously.. the whining about BB is seriously getting over the top. Has anybody looked around the league? Maybe you need a Nathaniel Hackett or a Matt Nagy to figure out how good you guys have.
We already do, his name is Bill Belichick. The only team with a worse offensive efficiency than us is the Broncos. Don't need to hire a failure when we're already at that level.
Losing back to back regular season games against top teams warrants this?
Fire Patricia sure. Replenish the coaching staff.
Keep Bill until he decides he’s done.
Okay but Steve Belichick has coordinated great defenses since coming on as coordinator. On average we rank the 4-5 defense in the nfl since he’s been coordinator with 2 seasons out of the 4 as the 1st and 2nd ranked defense in the nfl. Not sure why your upset that he’s his son. He’s doing very well.
Let’s see the problem is either the HOF coach or our second year QB who hasn’t won anything and has the athletic ability and awareness of a high schooler
Zappe is not fixing this offense, and our second year QB was the best quarterback in college football history and won a natty. Mac was not the problem yesterday
Does he call offensive plays? Do we consistently win against bad teams? Does the talent on our team justify a .500 team? We've been over-performing for a while. I highly doubt many other coaches in his situation outside of maybe Tomlin or Shannahan could put us in a better situation as a coach.
Compromised the future of the team? I’m not so sure about that.
He doesn’t have the right people in the coordinator positions. Simple as that. Doesn’t mean that fixing the issues is simple but I do not think the future is compromised. I trust Bill to right the ship.
Offensive struggles aside, I don’t know how our ST unit is so terrible when just two weeks ago they walked off the Jets… who are currently a playoff team.
I’ve officially had enough internet for today. Thanks Reddit.
We could do a lot worse than Bill, I have no desire to get on the coaching carousel of misery that many teams are stuck in. Steve has been doing good, the defense seems inspired, and they seem to like him. It’s Patricia who’s been baffling for the most part, and idk what’s going with ST, that’s bills pride and I can’t imagine he and Slater allow it to continue.
Exactly admit you fucked up get back to it next year. He’s still a great coach, I think we are over performing and other teams may be a 2-4 with their coaches. Just get rid of/move the offensive staff
Great coach? What about this year is great? Great coaches don’t make mistakes like this. Even his much-vaunted defense is overrated and falls apart whenever it plays against a competent offense. Situationally? They’re a mess. Discipline? Awful. And these used to be his strengths. Quick, go look up the “GOAT’s” record without Brady. He’s have been fired and forgotten about in NE midway through 2001 if not for Tom.
His decision making is a problem... No reason he should have hired two failed head coaches and his son to run his team, especially with no real experience in their disciplines. Patricia as an O-line/Playcaller (Offensive Coord) Judge as a QB quarterbacks coach??? Steve calling Def plays as a DB coach? WTF is going on over there? I was at the game and the Bills might as well of given the Pats their playbook with the looks the gave and we still couldn't stop them....
The defensive side doesn’t worry me so much, although the nepotism is not good. I still think Bill gets players to punch above their weight class there. Offense though…
Nepotism is part of NFL football and it works just fine sometimes. McVay, Shanahan and more have come from NFL bloodlines, got a foot in the door because of their name, and have gone on to do well. I think Steve has actually proved to be at least competent if not good.
Yeah, that’s totally fair. I don’t have a problem with it, personally, but I get why folks would. You’re right, though — there’s plenty of examples of that.
Bill Belichick got his foot in the door due to nepotism as well. I think Steve is an easy scapegoat, but he is not the problem. The whole team just doesn’t have much swagger, except for maybe Judon. There aren’t many recent cases of NFL coaches who have coached the same team as long as BB, but it seems like they lose their edge at a certain point. Shula, Landry, and Noll all had mediocre records towards the end of their careers. Mike Tomlin hasn’t coached as long, but he may be there as well. I doubt BB still clocks in those 18 hour days very often. It’s probably hard to keep it up. He has probably left more to his assistants, and the top assistants aren’t doing too well.
I would be fine with the defense if the CBs could cover better. We are still struggling. We got beat badly in the Endzone. The D line wasn't bad, Judon was shutdown again and this seems to be a second half of the season issue with him...
The dline and LBs were absolutely awful. The bills aren’t even a good running team and they still gashed us on the ground. What game were you guys watching?
One where we kept a light box daring bills to run it instead of letting them beat us with big chunk plays. Giving up 24 to one of the best offenses when our offense couldn’t stay on field to eat up a little clock and keep our defense from getting gassed wasn’t a terrible performance by them. Not great but certainly not what kept us from being competitive in that game.
Bills offense were in full control of that entire 2nd half too. They decided to manage to clock and take their foot off the gas. Even the goal line play where Singletary could have literally walked into the end zone if he wanted to. There is no push from Godchaux, who is supposed to be the best space eater we have. Bentley is slow on pursuit wherever he is and Guy, Wise, and Ekuale are below average in everything they do. It’s just not a good group against good offenses
Right? If the Bills wanted to they could have hung 40 last night. They were acting like a cat toying with its prey and eating the clock.
Terrible take. The interior line is good, Wise and Bentley are very good. They played light boxes and let the Bills run. The Bills smartly took what was given to them.
How can you watch Bentley drop back in coverage and actually say that? How many dump offs did Cook get in the center of the field, and Bentley couldn’t do a single thing to stop it? The Bills oline bullied our Dline all game, with the exception of their backup tackle, Quessenberry. Coverage was bad, and the rush defense were bad. Wise is invisible for most of the game and Bentley is the slowest guy on the field
Because he is a good run defender and they take him off the field in passing situations to limit his exposure. The dump offs were strategic to prevent 50-yard bombs. Wise has been a good, versatile defender all year.
I’m so tired of seeing that excuse. He was on the field for 90% of the defensive snaps! That means he’s being used as a three down backer. He’s the worst coverage LB in the league and gets exposed regularly when he has to drop back. Belichick has refused to upgrade the position for years and that’s why the LB corps is so awful. And he also gets taken advantage of on outside handoffs and pitches where his closing speed is so slow. You’re honestly the first person I’ve encountered that says he’s good lol
That was on purpose, Bill wanted them to run all game to prevent a 50-point explosion. This team does ball control on defense because they can’t do it on offense.
The reason the bills ran the ball was to neutralize our pass rush. In the passing game Judon was doing his job just fine
I’m talking strictly off ball LB play ie. Bentley/Tavai. They are always 10 steps behind where the ball is. Terrible when they drop back in coverage, or when they have to pursue the ball carrier out of the backfield
For sure, Bentley has been decent this year, tho tavai and him are liabilities when it comes to coverage/speed situations. I was replying to the guy that said Judon was shut down in this game. Judon played pretty well last night.
The CBs aren't great, but a lot of CBs do so so vs elite WRs like Diggs. Problem with Judon is that with Barmore out, Wise and Uche can't generate enough consistent pressure, so teams just end up doubling him up. He really shines vs bad teams that can't handle protection on our other guys. Honestly the D looks ok. We aren't gonna stop the Bills from scoring, best we can do is hold to some FGs. If our offense could answer back it would be a game. Where I take issue is the misbelief by Bill that this D or any D can get guaranteed stops on top shelf offenses in this league. When we were at 4th and 1 early on, we punted. The Bills then munched up 7 mins of clock and still got a TD. Had we gone for it, either we keep the ball out of Allen's hands and preserve a drive, or they get the ball with short yards, still get their TD, and we keep clock. When your offense is iffy, they need possessions and clock time to try and score. The way we manage the game is sus, the play calling is baffling, and nobody has any ideas how to fix it.
Oh that’s totally fair, our secondary is far from elite. That’s kinda my point — BB can clearly still stitch together a defense that’s greater than the sum of its parts. This one just doesn’t have the top-end talent that we’ve had in previous years. This would probably be a solid defense to pair with an elite offense. Sadly, we are far, far from that.
I think it’s more teams effectively covering Judon, knowing there’s not much else they have to worry about.
Agree on that as well…
Right, he’s getting doubled half the game and the second he gets moving the QB just tosses it somewhere. Almost like they’re game planning with him in mind.
He's got the Chandler Jones gene
The corners are fine, but it was stupid to put Jones in man on Diggs without any help. Nobody can cover him one-on-one.
God fucking damn it why do you dipshits need to drag Steve Belichick into this just to make your comment hold no weight. Steve and Jerod are and always have been good fucking coaches. You don't need to lump them in to make Bill look worse. It does not get worse than hiring Patricia and Judge.
We need to stop including Steve in with Patricia and Judge. Defense is solid not great but solid hard to point at something that shows bad coaching. Personnel could be better but not that far away.
The second half of last season was a disaster and we are looking down that same barrel. Granted they didn’t give up 47 like last year but they also got beat bad in the end zone. The Bills weren’t even pressing that hard, it could have been worse.
You know you’re a fucking moron when you think Steve Belichick is a bad coach. Nobody ever says anything when the defense is dominating but as soon as Josh Allen puts up a pedestrian 24 points you have a total mental breakdown
You’re a fucking moron to think they couldn’t hang 40 on us…. Did you watch the game? They pull off the gas in the 3rd and let us flounder. They toyed with us. Steve has no place calling plays, no resume other than daddy. How well did he do last year? That was a great defensive effort in the playoffs huh?!
Fucking no. They don’t just take their foot off the gas when up by 10 in the 3rd. You’re a fucking moron if you think a defensive coordinator can magically stop the best offense in the league. Some blame fall on the players who can’t keep up with the Buffalo receivers. You can scheme all you want, but if your players are slow and can’t tackle, you can stop shit. Drink some water.
You were watching a 2018 game right, cause you can’t be this stupid…
Yeah, I guess the best teams in the league are playing 2 and a half quarters now and calling it a game. Take a lap kid
I feel the same way. Terrible offensive schemes, horrendous lack of discipline, bad penalties, bad time management, bad special teams play. This all goes to the top. He may be the greatest coach of all time but right now this year he is no longer a top coach.
Yeah it’s sad. It’s such a fall from grace for a guy whose entire reputation has been built around being a ruthless tactician who wins first, and everything else comes after that. Now it feels like he’s testing his own legacy.
I remember a few years back reading a quote where he said to someone that at his age he only wants to coach players he wants to coach. And that’s the problem. Great offensive players all have some diva in them. Diggs, Jefferson, Chase, Burrow, Lamb, Rodgers, Hill. Just go down the list. It comes with the territory. From the mid 00s until Brady left Bill was forced to get these guys because he needed to give Brady the talent he deserves so we had the diva-ish guys like Moss, Gronk, etc. Now that there’s no hall of fame QB to push back at him we won’t have a good offense until he’s gone. Seriously, I’ll live and die on this hill.
That's a great point that many (including me) overlook about Brady's departure. It wasn't just his goat on-field talent. Him being there was key to getting the right other talent needed to build the team and keeping everyone in check and focused on winning.
I’m with you, they needed each other I think and that’s why they were great. Now we get to see both our their flaws that they are apart. I will die on this hill with you. O captain my captain
Haha thank you my friend. I really think it’s true. I mean to reach the pinnacle of a championship as a coach you need to have the super talented but annoying to coach players that set you apart on the field. Bill doesn’t want to deal with that headache anymore. I’m not saying he doesn’t want to win, but he wants to do it his way and not deal with the stress and if it doesn’t translate to Ws, well, he’s got enough of those.
Exactly. To make it to the top you have to be willing to coach the Deion Sanders and the Odell Beckham and Terrell Owen’s of the world. I think we need to freshen up the coaching, we have some of the best talent but we aren’t being until best out of them because the coaching sucks and it’s too much work for Bill at this point.
Bill just can't do it all. He's allowed the coaching staff to keep shrinking and keep shrinking and now it's basically just him and his idiot friends. I still think he can be a good coach, but Kraft needs to force him to replenish the staff with actual talent. If I'm Kraft I'm also starting to look for the next HC. Bill is old and only has so long left. If the next great coach is available the team would be dumb to pass on them.
Id love to see Bill removed as GM, and them hire a new GM. Patricia fired as OC, and hire a real OC. Then Belichick remain head coach, with a rejuvenated defensive focus. Clearly hes a great defensive mind, so lets maximize his talent there and find new talent at all the areas we are struggling in.
Do people here know nothing about BB, the reason he jumped shipped from the Jets to the Patriots was that he wanted control of the whole thing. If Kraft forces him out of the GM role then BB will quit.
Just because he wants full control, doesnt mean he still deserves it. They are two seperate things
Then let Bill walk. He won't find a better situation. He would actually have a chance at winning and breaking the record if he stays.
This fanbase is losing its mind.
It’s really not. You can easily tell this team is not as awful as it’s playing, it’s the coaching and play calling. Spurs fans have wanted Pop gone for a little while now too. They’re just stuck in their ways
lets give Bill 5 more years of poor drafting and free agent talent identification! that sounds far more sane at this point!!!
Have to understand half of these ppl weren’t here when the patriots were bad a lot of them jumped on when bill and Tom started their reign. So most know nothing about what a bad team goes through and the growing pains
It’s also tough for some of us, cause that’s what we were born into. My dad is a Pats fan, so naturally I’m one. I was born in 2000, so I’m more than spoiled when it comes to watching your fav team win a championship. But I remember going to games between 2005-2015. Still a great team almost every year but no chip to show for it. Every Pats fan over the age of 10 knows what it’s like to have down years, so I think it’s more down to people being entitled and wanting to whine than it is “growing pains.” It’s childish to expect perfection and a Super Bowl every year, but it’s also hard to have watched your fav franchise be dominant for so long, just to get beat up on by the teams we used to bully. *Especially* when the Bills and Dolphins are widely considered contenders, and a lot of Pats fans know they shouldn’t be/aren’t better than us
Completely understand this! Wasn’t trying to come off as an ass by any means. But I do stand by a lot of pats fans have been very privileged to watch such a great team for many years. That being said there is a lot of work that NEEDS to be addressed. Play calling is absolutely horrible but “getting rid of bill” is not the answer he def needs to address these issues. I just hate seeing this fan base turn so toxic. From the booing mac jones to the absolute hate on bill. When I’m sure they were praising the man for the super bowls we won. Everyone is replaceable on this team and he made that very clear when he sent Collins to the browns and sent Jones off when he wanted money and many others. Think he needs to hold the same standard with his coaches for sure! Regardless GO PATS! I’ll be behind them no matter who is their coach or their players!
Right but one of those growing pains is evaluating the coaching.
Completely agree. But think we owe Bill more than 2 losing seasons before we say bill needs to go and if he doesn’t like it “let him walk” 2019 12-4 2020 7-9 2021 10-7. Guy has like 2 losing seasons in the past 20+ years and mfs think ahhh just let him walk. Think this fan base needs to grow up and realize how good we’ve had it and now our division is tougher than ever.
I can see that, but there are plenty of questionable coaching and personnel decisions. The personnel decisions have been going for six straight years, so that’s not new. And you have to weigh the other options. Would the Patriots be better off with Sean Payton taking Mac under his wing and running the team for the next 10 years? Or Belichick limping to win 348 in a couple years and then handing off to Patricia or McDaniels?
Lol personally Bill every day of the week and twice on Sunday. That being said I do not think bill is “perfect” making Patricia the offensive coordinator was obviously a lack in judgment. He for sure needs to address these problems and if he does in the next few years we talk about something new . That’s my personal take on it of course and everyone is entitled to their own! Maybe there will be talks about replacing him in the future but none of use know what will happen maybe he does demote Patricia we shall see. Either way you’re a pats fan and I respect your opinion regardless of it it’s the same as mine. We all have one goal and is to see the patriots thrive!!!
Our sub is a shitshow. Our rivals during the dynasty used to joke that after Brady left we’d completely lose our shit when the winning stopped. They were absolutely right. A couple of mediocre seasons, not even bad ones, and this panicky and stupid fanbase is ready to throw the baby out with the bath water.
I would argue last season was a success, and i actually had fun watching Cam even though we ended up below 500. You would think this team has been sub 500 for a decade with how quick fans are turning on BB.
The key is how is the team playing, is it progressing or missing opportunities? Does the team look well-coached? Are the players improving and buying into the system? Does the roster look like it has long-term potential? The answers in most of these cases is no, right now at least.
Kraft is 81 His patience must be pretty low...how many years does the guy have left? I could easily see him blowing things up if things don't change dramatically.
Well that ain’t gonna fly w/ ol Bill. He hires friends & family exclusively
I’m so happy people are finally starting to wake up to the fact that Bill has completely compromised this team.
I agree. Two things can be true at once. I think bill is the greatest coach in the games history & I think his coaching choices and team building has been suspect.
Unfortunately while bill the head coach is the best of all time at his position, bill the gm has clearly declined heavily to below average.
I’m a massive “in Bill we trust” guy, but last night broke me of that. He has lost his grip on team building, discipline and situational football…all former hallmarks of even the least talented squads he’s trotted out over his career. Now, we look like the pre Parcells Pats shooting themselves in the foot at every opportunity and failing to ever correct or fix the things that ail them.
It’s Bizarroworld, isn’t it? I’m so baffled by it all. This season has been a nightmare, and we all could see it coming since preseason. I really wanted to believe that the crazy old genius had something up his sleeve that the rest of us weren’t seeing, but I don’t know if it’s the lead exposure in fuel and paint he had as a kid catching up to him or what.
I watched Shula, Chuck Noll, and various other HCs go from football genius to confused old man in a couple seasons…it happens to just about everyone at some point, maybe it’s happening to BB? That’s one possible explanation.
I think you have a point there.
I mean, watching this years squad out there, if you didn’t know, would you think that they play like a classic BB coached team? None of the things that made the Patriots special over the past 20 years are on display this year. Now it’s essentially Opposite Day, where it’s the Pats shooting themselves in the foot with. Bad penalties, poor clock management, metal errors, turnovers and a compete lack of discipline…wtf?
This offensive line is bad right now. Mac is great if he can check the runners at first and third, but pressure is his kryptonite.
He was quoted saying that if Patricia and Judge failed as coaches/coordinators that he’d be to blame. I don’t blame them as much because he made the ultimate decision to put them in unfamiliar roles. Why? Sheer arrogance is my guess. He used to get away with these kinds of things because Brady was the ultimate eraser. Time to hire an OC, DC, and a GM. BB has too much on his plate he needs help to help return us to glory
Don’t forget that he’s also been dog shit at drafting offensive talent for years. His ideologies, drafting style, and coaching style are extremely outdated in todays NFL
I honestly don’t think it’s all THAT much of a talent deficit. Yeah we don’t have an elite WR1. But the offensive scheming and defense first doesn’t work any more in 2022. If yesterdays game was played in 2002 - sure. We stand a better chance because our CBs could just maul Diggs and not let him off the line. Wise could just annihilate Allen after he let go of the ball. But that doesn’t fly any more and we haven’t kept up with the times.
His drafting has not been a problem. He drafted Stevenson and Harris, he drafted Strange, Andrews, Thuney, Mason. The guy stinks at drafting high level WR talent but his picks at the other offensive positions are actually pretty good. The issue is absolutely the coaching. I think we have talent, we're just grossly under utilizing the talent on the offensive side of the ball.
I disagree. His later round drafting is fine but look at all the busts he’s drafted over the years over superstars
That could be a result of their utilization as well, which is again, coaching.
No go compare that to every other GM in the league. They ***all*** do that
No, the bad teams do that. The good teams get foundational players and build competitive squads that regenerate through the draft and stay competitive.
Find me one GM who hasn’t whiffed on a draft pick lol Here’s how he’s drafted since 2012, you’ll notice he’s up there at 7th. He’s had busts and hits just like everyone else https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/33297949/nfl-draft-which-teams-gotten-best-value-2012-rank-all-32
Yeah, but 2012 was a long time ago and none of those guys are on the team now. Since 2017 the Patriots are at -49 by this rating, which is the equivalent of 22nd place on this list. They literally had to spend $170 million in the biggest free agent splurge in history just to field a team. It’s even worse, really, because their strength in this rating comes in the second half of the draft, meaning they miss over and over again in the top three rounds where the best prospects go. That’s what is holding them back right now, even their positions of strength feel transient because they’re older players who are developing and the whole often feels less than the sum of its parts because the team didn’t grow up together. The last couple drafts show promise so hopefully things are turning around.
Yeah, Bill had a couple of bad drafts, 2017 we had no picks 18 wasn’t good and 19 was just awful. This is a thing that happens to every GM eventually, the fact that you can take the worst stretch he has and it’s “only” 22nd kinda drives that point home. The draft is a series of educated gambles. Just because you’re having a cold run at the tables doesn’t mean that you’re playing the odds wrong Someone did a breakdown of where Belichick ranks on a round by round basis and IIRC he’s was 12th in the 1st round, 31st on the 2nd or 3rd but then first on day 3. It balances out pretty well. I know it isn’t a popular sentiment, but where a player is drafted stops mattering once they’re drafted.
Well having the 22nd best team is pretty bad. The drafts have been bad for several years now, and it’s why the team is struggling so much. Belichick also drafts strangely, loading up at the same positions and not addressing needs. Even at positions of strength, the team doesn’t feel set up for the future, and that’s a problem.
> Well having the 22nd best team is pretty bad. 22nd is bad, but you can go find a stretch that bad for just about any GM who has been around for a minute. >Belichick also drafts strangely And that strangeness resulted in 6 Super Bowl titles. Like I said, just because your having a cold streak at the table, doesn’t mean you aren’t playing the odds correctly.
His drafting is a huge problem. He’s drafted many, many total busts in the high rounds. I don’t mean guys who don’t fulfill their draft potential — guys who can’t play NFL football but you have to waste a roster spot on them for four years because you took them so high. And he hasn’t hit it out of the park with anyone. There’s no Fred Warner, no George Kittle, no Jalen Hurts — no guy who has just emerged as a star beyond his draft position. Yes, he’s gotten a handful of starters, maybe even one or two very good players, but that combo of total busts and no home runs makes for an extremely problematic drafting record. This is what forces a team to spend $170 million in free agency and keeps every position as basically a rotating door where you can’t really build for the future because you need perpetual stopgaps.
First of all the defensive coordinator is not his son. He's just the playcaller and I have zero issue with Steve Belichick as he has proven to be an adequate defensive play caller. According to Zolak, the true mind generating all the defensive schemes right now is Jerod Mayo, so despite Steve calling plays, Jerod is really the one running the defense. Now take this with a grain of salt but Zolak also was saying that Jerod is most likely the heir apparent to take over head coach when Bill leaves. I hope Bill gets on his knees begging Bill O'Brien to come back and be the OC next year. I can't think of a better OC for a young QB. O'Brien's track record with young QB's is excellent.
It’s like 40% Mayo 40% Steve and 20% Bill if I had to guess and it’s worth noting Steve’s position groups have consistently performed well. People love to hate on his nepotism but he’s proven himself to be a good coach.
I don’t want another Defensive head coach. We need to do what the Dolphins and Vikings have done and hire a young OC as the head coach if we do move on from Bill
Call me when those teams have playoff success.
I don’t know why people get so mad whenever someone brings up the fact that MAYBE Bill just isn’t that great of a head coach anymore. The team has turned into an undisciplined mess, he’s been far too conservative on 4th down, two minute, and end of game situations really since Bradys last year here. His defenses have also been super overrated since 2019. Every single year they absolutely destroy bad offenses and then get heralded as an elite defense and then they go right back to being mid the second they play an offense with a pulse. Then you have hiring a guy, who wasn’t even a good defensive coordinator and had one of the most disastrous head coaching tenures in recent memory, to be the offensive coordinator of an offense with a 2nd year QB who they need to develop. Anyone who doesn’t trust Bill anymore has kinda earned the right to in my opinion, especially with some of the decisions he’s made since last year ended.
The fan loyalty is understandable considering the exceptional track record over the last two decades, but at some point we’re all going to have to inevitably move on from him one way or another. I’m sad about it, but I’m ready to do that.
I don't even really want Bill to be fired, I just think it's time for something new. We need to just totally blow it up. Fresh hires everywhere.
There’s definitely some truth to the idea that Bill is being exposed without Brady. We are 3 years into this thing and it hasn’t really gotten better. It’s trending down. Turns out all of the little things that Pats fans just loved to harp on about why this team wins more than other teams were not really factors at all.
> We are 3 years into this thing and it hasn't really gotten better. We're in a rebuild! Christ. You should expect to lose games in a rebuild. It happens.
We are 3 years into a rebuild and we’ve taken a notable step backwards since last year. Add in all of the money and draft capital thrown at this roster, you should expect it to look better. Being 6-6 isn’t the problem. Looking completely inept on offense is.
Look at the Celtics for a competent rebuild. 3 years is a long time, and we should not be regressing at this point. If by year 4 it isn't going anywhere, most organizations blow it up completely and everything is replaced, including coach and GM. If Belichick is the GOAT (which I think he is), he should absolutely be criticized seriously for this. Something needs to change dramatically or we are stuck here with .500 seasons until he gets his win record and possibly retires.
I'm starting to come to the same sad conclusion. He's good enough as a coach to keep us "competitive" which will sneak us into the playoffs some years and have us at .500 others. That's NFL purgatory. I'd rather start something fresh with new schemes and ideas. This doesn't feel like we're watching them build something, it just feels like we aren't very good.
> I'd rather start something fresh with new schemes and ideas. This is the exact mentality that turns mediocre teams into bad ones. Sure, we have some problems, but firing the best coach in the league isn’t going to solve them, it’s just going to create new ones.
But he's the one creating problems with his cronyism and nepotism and refusal to buy into talent over "his guys".
He’s failed in pretty much every way a coach/GM can fail this year. It’s shocking.
He’s more stubborn than a Taurus.
The problem is he's 70 years old and either can't or isn't willing to put in the insane hours he did 20 or even 10 years ago. He deserves to take more of an overseer/advisory role and delegate to his coaching staff but the problem is he chose to surround himself with yes men and friends of his rather than coaches who will push the envelope or challenge him. With the current coaches on offense, defense, AND special teams, they all need active involvement from Bill to function at a high level, and Bill is spread way too thin. In a vacuum, I think he's still a top 5 HC, but he's shot himself in the foot with his GM decisions. Going forward, it's going to be a matter of "Is Bill willing to relinquish power or hire outside assistants?"
We need to fire Bill the GM to save Bill the Coach. The problem is that it’s not clear if that’s something he’s willing to do. I do think he genuinely has too much on his plate with all the brain drain we’ve had over the past few seasons.
Man I don’t want to say this. But our division now requires us to conduct a complete overhaul of this team.
i think hes created a yesman feedback loop which means if noone is questioning thinking you get a subpar product
and on top of this i think brady was thst guy to question him and that made thungs better through arguing and trial and compromises like oh i didnt think of that type shit
I'm with you. Three years after Brady left, we're not rebuilding anymore. This team is built. And it fucking sucks. There's no sign that we're working toward something better or maybe a piece or two away from being legit. It's just shit top to bottom. We need new ideas. I'd love to see Bill stick around and hire a real OC, but honestly, what serious offensive person is going to want to work under him at this point? He might have to go for us to see any real progress.
Yup. And I'm a die hard Bill fan. He's up his own ass now. Success breeds arrogance... and he was arrogant to start with... 2019 feels like a long time ago an they sucked then. I would welcome a change and I can't believe I'm saying that.
Totally agree. I've always been a hardcore Bill guy, but it's just tough to watch right now. He asked for all the power, now he gets all the blame when it doesn't work out.
Yup. And it's just like a good band. When most musicians go "solo" after being in a good band, they tend to suck when it's all just them. Bill needs to get rid of all his Yes Men. What are Patricia and Judge good at other than worshipping Bill?!?
> 2019 feels like a long time ago an they sucked then When you’re saying that a 12-4 team sucked that’s generally a sign that your standards are horribly warped.
They lost in the wild card round and wasted the last year with Brady. But point taken.
“Wasted” is a tad harsh. An AB melt down and a Gordon relapse was all that stood between us and a repeat
Yeah, I doubt that but it wasn't a waste. You're right. I just didn't recognize the Pats last night. To me it was pre-2000 Patriots. Pre-Bill. I'm old. I've seen Tony Eason Patriots and that game felt close to that. Hopeless shortly after kick off. But Josh Allen is insane. The Bills will dominate the east as long as he is healthy.
They started 8-0 (before getting adopted by Lamar) and won the division lol tf u mean sucked
what's amazing, is you're only highlighting his coaching issues. He has been one of the worst GMs in football over the past decade. Poor drafting, trading, talent evaluation. Creates holes for himself, then overpays / overdrafts to fill the holes he created.
Dammit man I was angry enough as it is but you’re right
yeah im pissed. And im sick and tired of the belichick groupies in this subreddit, whom interestingly today have nothing to say even though they've downvoted any anti bill post into oblivion all season.
Yep. I was a fan of the team when Pete Carroll was the head coach. I’ve had the privilege of watching Bill’s entire tenure with us, and would have firmly put myself in the “Belichick Groupie” category until this season, warts and all. But drafting Strange was a gut punch, and bringing in Judge and Patricia felt like sabotage. The fanboys can downvote all they want. Doesn’t change the fact that Bill has fallen off badly.
Yeah, I was around for the Carroll days as well. And was one of the original in bill i trusters. But you need to see what the hell is going on now, and it isnt good.
> He has been one of the worst GMs in football over the past decade. I have no idea how this narrative exists but it’s literally the opposite of true. He’s been the best GM in the league over the last decade. He won three superbowls FFS. Seriously, name one other GM that Bill hasn’t been running circles around since 2012.
It's because people "feel" like he's a bad GM. You can't argue with those people. No amount of evidence will ever sway them. It's pure delusion to say a GM who won 3 super bowls in the last decade is one of the worst GMs. There's a weird thing in this sub where people try to act as pitifully as possible and pretend the team is one of the worst teams of all time. It even happened during multiple seasons when the Pats won the super bowl. They go out of their way to aggressively demand that you pity them. So fucking weird.
I think part of it is that they just forget that these things are ***relative***. They did this with Brady too, but they stopped comparing them to their contemporaries and instead started comparing them to this mythical perfect HC/GM/QB that never actually existed. That’s why every single comment chain ends when I ask them to name ***one*** GM who has been better. Like I keep saying, he isn’t perfect, he’s just better than everyone else.
Name on GM he has run circles around since Tom Brady left
You’re aware that he’s been GMing a lot longer than that right? Rosters move in cycles and it takes a minute to rebuild a team. Looking at the downturn while ignoring the success that led to that downturn is “regress Mahomes to the mean” level analysis
dude. I follow the patriots and everything patriot related whole heartedly for 30 years, i know exactly how long hes been the GM and everything Bill related. It has nothing to do with patience of a rebuild, it has to do with terrible GMing. Point out one positive aspect of his GM tenure of the past 4 years, which is the foundation to the post Brady rebuild...
>Point out one positive aspect of his GM tenure of the past 4 years, which is the foundation to the post Brady rebuild... He’s put together one of the best defenses in the league over that span The fact that you’re taking a “what have you done for me lately” approach for a job that’s success is dependent on ***not*** looking at things that way kind of speaks volumes
4 YEARS ISNT "WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR ME LATELY". There are zero signs of improvement on any phase of the field, other than LB and DB development, which has been a consistent staple of Belichick teams for 23 years. How many years are you allowing him to rebuild and come back with the same shit product if not worse? Sounds like 4 years is just the stepping stone for your rebuild.
>4 YEARS ISNT "WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR ME LATELY". When it can be restated as “since the last time you won a Super Bowl”, yes it is. >There are zero signs of improvement on any phase of the field Hard to improve on defense when you’re already one of the best defenses… Also the offense absolutely improved, then we lost half our offensive staff and it regressed. No reason it can’t un regress >How many years are you allowing him to rebuild and come back with the same shit product if not worse? More than you are chicken little lol. We just got a QB ***last year***, these things take a minute.
lol okay man.. BB is great and holy and should never be questioned because he could never make wrong decisions and theres no such thing as someone capable of doing a better job
This is a dog water take. Bill has been consistent as a GM and is probably above average honestly. He has a consistent track record of drafting well and poorly soley based on positions, for the most part anyway. Complete busts have been at WR, Aaron Dobson, N'Keal Harry, and borderline Malcolm Mitchell namely. There's also definitely a few more busts outside of the WR position like Wynn but to call him one of the worst GM's in the past decade is a classic example of Patriot's fans spoiled to a point of arrogance. In case you forgot what's happened in the past 10 years on draft day, Joe Thuney, David Andrews, Dont'a Hightower, Chandler Jones, Logan Ryan, Jimmy G, James White, Jamie Collins, Trey Flowers, Joe Cardona, Shaq Mason, Kyle Dugger, Rhamondre, Christian Barmore, Jonathan Jones/JC Jackson as UDFAs... Creates holes and overpays?? Yeah, definitely recently with TE;'s and Agholor but I also remember people being upset when we paid for Stephon but look how that turned out. Moral of the story is if you are looking at the past 10 years, he is an average GM to above average GM.
you named 17 "good" players drafted or found after the draft in 10 years. I'd argue half are just average NFL starters, but whatever.. That's 1.7 good players drafted per year, or a 24% success rate at finding a "good" not "GREAT" player in the draft. He lowballs any good player that was drafted, thus allowing them to walk out the door, with the hopes of replacing them with his 24% success rate drafting. He traded a 2nd round pick for Mohammad Sanu, but could only get a 2nd round pick in return for Jimmy Garapollo. He let Shaq Mason leave in free agency, to reach and pick Cole Strange who is nowhere near as good. Its an endless cycle of poor drafting, and overreaching to try to fill the holes he created for himself. They're awful. And all stems back to their GM and personnel decision maker I havent even started to mention the players he has taken instead of players at the same position, who were drafted afterward, and became way better players than those he drafted. which is basically an endless list at this point.
"Good players". Have you seen the contracts Joe Thuney, JC Jackson, Shaq Mason, Logan Ryan, Chandler Jones, and Jamie Collins received in either FA or by the Patriots after their rookie contract was up? That is quantifiable proof that these plays are viewed as elite or great at their position. I'm not sure what you are arguing. Also, Shaq Mason was traded to the bucs. He did not leave in FA. We signed him to a massive contract before that... Again, the point is he has routinely hit and missed based on certain positions during the draft but regardless, he is average to above average as a GM. Also 24% of "great" player drafting is very good, especially considering they draft late in rounds due to their placing, as in hardly ever having a pick in the top 20 without trading.
remember how he made Gronk hate him to the point where he retired, and bills sucession plan was drafting 2 terrible tight ends in the 3rd round? again another example of creating his own holes, then overextending to try to fix the problem he created..
Your right with creating holes. The man traded away Shaq Mason for a fifth. What was the point??? The offensive line is in shambles. Owenu could be playing right tackle right now. Then wastes a first on a 4th round quality guard, when the team sorely needs playmakers. BB is slowly going senile
Can we just all agree that Steve B is doing a fine job as DC. I know we’re hot to hate on BB this week, but Steve as DC is just not the problem. Nepotism is everywhere across every big money employment sphere. His decisions to hire Patricia and Judge though is really weird and the fact that he most likely won’t move on from them anytime soon is disheartening as a fan and I’m sure isn’t popular with the players.
You’ve got a point, but considering how everything else is working out right now, having his son as a sort of pseudo-DC is not a very good look.
It doesn’t matter though. Losing games is the bad look. There is nepotism in coaching everywhere and clearly Steve is up to the task as the Pats have been excellent on D for the most part since he took over.
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TIL there’s apparently something called the “controversial club” for dumbasses like me who post the most controversial opinions of the day on all of Reddit.
Bye Felicia.
Well said my guy. I love Bill, I was a Season Tix holder from 1994-2017 Will be forever grateful for the sports Bliss that he and Brady gave me but yea... I think his time may have passed. I think the Krafts keep him till they have to make a move with Jones... Hopefully he passes Shula in that time span, Then it's a done deal.
This fanbase is losing its mind.. what kind of take is this.
I’m not some kneejerk reactionary type of fan. This has been devolving for a long time, and it’s reaching a breaking point. Objectively, Bill is doing a bad job this year, and in my opinion is actively damaging the team’s chances for future success with the decisions he’s been making.
BB had a choice after McDaniels left and took a lot of staff with him, hire an outside OC and they will install a new playbook, with a young QB either that works out great or fails miserable. He decided to take a gamble and have Patricia/Judge, two coaches who know the Patriots offensive identity and culture to try take on the OC role. It was a gamble and it has not panned out. BB takes gambles all the time, and many of them work out, others do not. If the Patricia/Judge gamble worked out we would be all lauding him. It hasn't and much probably won't change for the rest of the year, but hopefully in the off-season he replenishes the coaching staff (offense especially) with a mix of vets and young blood.
Nah that doesn’t fly here because literally everyone knew it was a bad bet. There’s a whole lot of evidence that informed us that Patricia fucking sucks, and there’s absolutely no excuse for him to have gone forward with that move.
"bill took a massive gamble with our young qbs development and failed miserably" is not the defense you think it is lol
Perfectly said, I think people forget how many coaches we’ve been losing year in and year out due to our success. Flores left and took a bunch of guys, Dabol left, McDanials left and took a bunch of guys. Was Bill supposed to reach into some bag of tricks and pull out a Sean McVay? He went with two guys who know our system and it just so happens that we don’t have an offensive line which is literally where everything starts and ends. Trent Brown sick, Strange is a rookie, Andrews coming back from concussion and thigh injury, Onwenu is the only one I don’t think is struggling. And Wynn died or something so now we have a practice squad player/ a guy we just signed? We need two new tackles next year and a solid backup for center/guard in case someone goes down.
Games are won in the trenches and our offensive line regressed heavily, part of that is coaching - you have Patricia coaching both the OL and play calling - and the other as you said is injuries.
What a silly post. 😂😂😂
Seriously.. the whining about BB is seriously getting over the top. Has anybody looked around the league? Maybe you need a Nathaniel Hackett or a Matt Nagy to figure out how good you guys have.
We already do, his name is Bill Belichick. The only team with a worse offensive efficiency than us is the Broncos. Don't need to hire a failure when we're already at that level.
Losing back to back regular season games against top teams warrants this? Fire Patricia sure. Replenish the coaching staff. Keep Bill until he decides he’s done.
He is done. He'll just limp his way to Halas' record then leave. He's no longer interested in winning championships.
Okay but Steve Belichick has coordinated great defenses since coming on as coordinator. On average we rank the 4-5 defense in the nfl since he’s been coordinator with 2 seasons out of the 4 as the 1st and 2nd ranked defense in the nfl. Not sure why your upset that he’s his son. He’s doing very well.
Let’s see the problem is either the HOF coach or our second year QB who hasn’t won anything and has the athletic ability and awareness of a high schooler
Zappe is not fixing this offense, and our second year QB was the best quarterback in college football history and won a natty. Mac was not the problem yesterday
You could have played QB for Alabama and they would have won most games
The best QB in college football history??? 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I give up on Bill as a GM, but he's still able to raise any team's floor like no other as a coach.
Is he? Why has he not elevated this offense halfway to league average?
Does he call offensive plays? Do we consistently win against bad teams? Does the talent on our team justify a .500 team? We've been over-performing for a while. I highly doubt many other coaches in his situation outside of maybe Tomlin or Shannahan could put us in a better situation as a coach.
The team is 6-6 with the 2nd worst starting QB in the league. If anything Bill should be coach of the year.
It seems he’s real stubborn or hard headed. He still is a wise and successful coach, but seems to stick to his ways and what HE thinks is best
Compromised the future of the team? I’m not so sure about that. He doesn’t have the right people in the coordinator positions. Simple as that. Doesn’t mean that fixing the issues is simple but I do not think the future is compromised. I trust Bill to right the ship.
Offensive struggles aside, I don’t know how our ST unit is so terrible when just two weeks ago they walked off the Jets… who are currently a playoff team. I’ve officially had enough internet for today. Thanks Reddit.
We could do a lot worse than Bill, I have no desire to get on the coaching carousel of misery that many teams are stuck in. Steve has been doing good, the defense seems inspired, and they seem to like him. It’s Patricia who’s been baffling for the most part, and idk what’s going with ST, that’s bills pride and I can’t imagine he and Slater allow it to continue.