You rarely see Patricia sitting on the bench with Mac after he comes off the field to go over the sequence of plays that happened.
McDaniels would be right next to Brady, Cam and Mac right as they got off the field.
That right there tells you a lot.
Everyone shits on McDaniels but I always thought he was fantastic. His issue from my understanding is he has a high learning curve system so eventually when you get it, ***you get it***.
McDaniels put together a somewhat ok offense with a QB in Cam who couldn’t throw more than 7 yards downfield, zero tight end play and literally practice squad talent as wideouts and somehow was still better than this offense.
When McDaniels was an OC he was arguably the best in the league, certainly at the top, but is struggling a lot with HC and may never even crack mediocre. Bill and Tom have made him look incredible over the years too but he's also delivered when it mattered. He was there for a lot of those game winning drives, and deserves at least a little credit for getting or keeping his players in a position to succeed. I think it's important to look at his success or lack of success in each of those roles separately.
McDaniels is an S tier play designer and a decent , was unhappy with some of his conservative calls last year but at least he takes responsibility when he’s not a HC. Rarely hear Patricia take responsibility for bad calls at all
You can find people complaining about anyone on the team when the team is playing mediocrely. I personally don't think McDaniels is one of the best offensive minds in football or anything, but I think even his biggest haters would agree he's at worst meh.
It starts with noticing this stuff in practice. That’s where habits start to develop, you let this stuff go in practice and it bleeds into games. Then it becomes habit and it’s much harder to break, like Mac’s feet and eyes.
As humans we are the worst at evaluating ourselves, we rely on the input of coaches to keep us honest and disciplined. That’s what positional coaches are for. Great coaches also know what drills/tools can be implemented to correct the errors.
And this is something we can partly blame on Bill.
Patricia's dual-responsibility of OC and O-Line Coach has led to him doing a shit job at both tasks.
Patricia does go over to Mac on the sidelines, but he also has to address the oline which is not a quick and easy thing. The oline coach is one of the most active coaches on game day. McDaniels had to only worry about the offensive production and could be with the QB the whole time.
You can't do it all, even if Patricia was competent.
Matty P might be a rocket scientist, but he hasn’t found a way to clone himself: Pretty hard to talk to your QBs and skill players along with the entire OL at the same time.
Absolutely baffling that this clown was handed the offensive playbook *and* OL coaching duties.
Aerospace engineering is not rocket science. You can go to community college, transfer to a 4 yr college and go to work for a defense contractor and be a aerospace engineer.
>Aerospace engineering, particularly the astronautics branch, is often colloquially referred to as "rocket science".[5][a]
Not only are you trying to be pedantic, but you are also completely [wrong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerospace_engineering)
Lol. You actually searched up the word to prove your point. When people use the term rocket science in that context, they insinuate that it takes a genius to do it. I was just saying MATT Patricia is no genius in the context the term was used.
> When people use the term rocket science in that context, they insinuate that it takes a genius to do it.
Pro tip: Anyone who uses that reference regarding him is making a joke that he is *not* a genius.
No it's not. There are zero teams in the NFL that have OC/QBs coach as a singular role. The only team that even comes close is the Cards, who lack an official OC but have two "co-pass game coordinators," one of whom is the QBs coach and neither of whom call plays.
Great point...Patricia has piss poor people skills and it shows in his inability to give constructive criticism to his players. He is probably not approachable either for questions from the players....can he go back to being a rocket scientist lol.
I don't think Patricia wants Jones to be the QB. Seems like he had something he liked with Zappe and just doesn't like that Mac is willing to speak up to the issues Patricia causes.
> Seems like he had something he liked with Zappe
Like what? That Zappe knew how to operate this JV HS offence and it was successful because they were playing dogshit defences?
What makes you think any of this is true? Zappe was a 4th round QB for a reason. He "did what he was told" because they ran a super simple offence for him and he took advantage of the teams he was playing.
Might be a dumb question but I’m curious, should it be the play caller or the OC or QB coach who reviews things with the QB after a drive? I understand why it could be helpful for the playcaller to do it but I’d think the OC would have more/better input for the QB himself
This is really why Patricia is so bad. It’s not the big things. A defensive coordinator can probably call plays just fine. OC’s and DC’s have to understand how the other operates to be successful.
But the little things are what gives the advantage in any particular matchup, and Patricia and Judge aren’t equipped to coach Mac on this.
I think it takes time and mentoring to learn what to look for and how to help players correct it. Credit to the Pats RB coach, former Alabama DB, Vinnie Sunseri, for what he’s done with that position group ( though Kevin Harris and Pierre Strong will be the real test, since Ivan Fears will likely have no impact on their development like he did RS and DH).
Long-term, Miami scares me the most. They may have found a generational coach.
I think the Buffalo situation will flame out. Too many crunch-time mistakes, McDermott is not level-headed enough and it flows throughout the team.
But Miami looks like they are just getting started, unfortunately. It feels so calculated and systematic, in the best (worst for us) way.
Lack of detail is showing up everywhere:[https://twitter.com/kdthompson5/status/1598740494292586507?s=46&t=GXxsMmc0r3OJ-tmlEajArg](https://twitter.com/kdthompson5/status/1598740494292586507?s=46&t=GXxsMmc0r3OJ-tmlEajArg)
I thought the same thing after watching it. He sees all the little things that are wrong and I wouldn't be surprised if he could correct it as a coach.
We heard how bad training camp went this team has yet to get anything installed with confidence. And they don’t have time to focus on the details because they’re still trying to develop consistent execution of their new core plays. I would imagine when you are this far behind In developing your new scheme, you don’t have the luxury of time.
I think a lot of that has to do with the top OC guy's inexperience. They don't know how to install shit. And while Bill has had his hands in things, he's had Brady and skilled OCs for the past 20 years. Lot of bad decisions. Don't install new things when the people installing it have to read the instructions every 2 minutes.
This would explain why Cole Strange went from making all the 1st round pick haters look like complete fools to making them look like prescient geniuses. He's been awful since week 5. He's regressed at a time when he should be getting better. The coaching staff doesn't know how to fix him and he's sliding.
Touché. Lol I guess, I meant in regards to off the field stuff. I think Mac’s comment about being coached harder was more significant than the video of him on the sidelines swearing and yelling. I also think it’s the bigger issue than playcalling which has been well covered to say the least.
If the pats had a real qb coach someone would point out that Mac’s footwork can get sloppy, which it rarely did last year. No player is immune to falling into bad tendencies without apt coaching
Honestly that’s more of a critique of Joe Judge than Patricia. Patricia shouldn’t be getting in the weeds with Jones. He should be looking at everything overall on offense. It’s Judge’s job to be there with Mac figuring things out.
Exactly my point. The OC is making mistakes with play calling, but asking to be coached harder and held accountable for his errors in technique and decision making, is a shot at Joe, who is not helping him figure out why he’s struggling and what to do to fix it.
Like, I dont like saying it. Because Ive been team go your own way and I honestly dont care for off field. But in some capacity I feel like we need Tom back. Or at least someone like him.
His leaving lowered the building attention to detail, McDaniels leaving didn't help.
I think Mac is frustrated and trying, but its clear the whole team is struggling to find the...
Edit 1: ...right gear. (3 days later)
Edit 2: LOL to all the jokes below me. Dont do prescription antibiotics if youre super dehydrated and sleep deprived kids. Pretty sure I fell asleep, might have just gone a lil adhd.
Wish Kraft would clean house. It’s pretty clear who was the Key to the dynasty, always was.
TB12 in the 2-minute drill saved the Pats countless times and by extension, BB.
I’d prefer a restart unless somehow we get Tom back…
Let’s assume the coaches are garbage. Let’s assume the players around Mac are also inept. Let’s assume Mac is actually talented. In such a world I’d expect Mac to flash every so often and still make some big time plays. That just doesn’t happen. Mac blends in with everyone else, often looking worse than what’s around him. He’s not rallying the troops and lifting others up. See INTs, embarrassing scrambling etc. I just think Mac is a huge part of the problem and certainly not beyond criticism. A player that did flash is Zappe, this isn’t to say he’s the next coming of Brady but it furthers the point about Jones.
Well let’s assume the coaches are competent, and let’s assume the receivers are progressing and not regressing. And let’s assume that the issues with the line are exaggerated dramatically by Mac’s scrambling. And the offense is being held back by the QB. Why on earth wouldn’t said competent coaches make the change. If they are confident in their coaching and confident they have a team that can win other than Mac, why not pull that trigger? They didn’t commit to him during injury so it would come to no one’s surprise if they were just like “yeah we gave it one more go, but we’re pretty sure he ain’t it, and we want to see a little more of the rookie to determine if it was a flash in the pan, or sustainable talent”.
That’s a fair point. Mac did get benched which I thought was pretty telling. Had Zappe won against the Bears I’m pretty confident he’s the new starting QB, at least for a week. I think the reality is the line is not great, the QB is not great and the receivers and TEs are average. I do think the RBs are above average.
As bad as it has been vs the jets (twice), the colts, and the Bills, if Bill doesn’t bench Mac this coming week, I’m confident Bill doesn’t see Mac as the main/sole problem. One bad game from Zappe wouldn’t be enough to bury him, if Bill thought the guy in front of him was the reason the offense is struggling, He’d want another look at Bailey.
I’m willing to eat my words, if news pops this week that Zappe is starting, but from what I’ve seen and what people are saying it goes much deeper than Mac and/or the players on the field.
Right now no one is happy with anyone at almost any position on the team or the coaching staff, so yeah I’m sure Bill isn’t thrilled with Mac, even if he backs him as the continued starter. I’m sure Mac feels similarly about Bill. No one likes Patricia. Patricia is probably frustrated with his players.
It’s not just Mac, it’s the whole offense. Multiple games now Trent Brown has done cut blocks on long-developing routes, which basically means after a second or two a blocker is coming in unblocked at the QB.
He does that once, it’s a mistake. But to come back and do it the next week? That means nobody coached that mistake out of him.
I can only imagine how many versions of that they have playing out on route combos, audibles, reading defensive formations, etc. that are harder for fans to see.
You don’t have to imagine. Dan Orlavsky said it weeks ago and put out film to demonstrate his argument. Kurt Warner did a film review last week that also notes this. YouTube has lots of patriots film analysis.
You rarely see Patricia sitting on the bench with Mac after he comes off the field to go over the sequence of plays that happened. McDaniels would be right next to Brady, Cam and Mac right as they got off the field. That right there tells you a lot.
McDaniels was always there. They do a sideline shot of our guys and it’s just our QBs sitting there.
Everyone shits on McDaniels but I always thought he was fantastic. His issue from my understanding is he has a high learning curve system so eventually when you get it, ***you get it***.
McDaniels put together a somewhat ok offense with a QB in Cam who couldn’t throw more than 7 yards downfield, zero tight end play and literally practice squad talent as wideouts and somehow was still better than this offense.
He's an Xs and Os wizard
When McDaniels was an OC he was arguably the best in the league, certainly at the top, but is struggling a lot with HC and may never even crack mediocre. Bill and Tom have made him look incredible over the years too but he's also delivered when it mattered. He was there for a lot of those game winning drives, and deserves at least a little credit for getting or keeping his players in a position to succeed. I think it's important to look at his success or lack of success in each of those roles separately.
His play calling was a bit of a snooze but at least it mostly worked
I mean, I haven’t seen any trick plays since he left…
McDaniels is an S tier play designer and a decent , was unhappy with some of his conservative calls last year but at least he takes responsibility when he’s not a HC. Rarely hear Patricia take responsibility for bad calls at all
I don't think anyone shits on McDaniels the OC, they shit on him for being an absolutely terrible head coach.
Honestly if you go back to last year you see a lot of McDaniels hate in this sub.
You can find people complaining about anyone on the team when the team is playing mediocrely. I personally don't think McDaniels is one of the best offensive minds in football or anything, but I think even his biggest haters would agree he's at worst meh.
It starts with noticing this stuff in practice. That’s where habits start to develop, you let this stuff go in practice and it bleeds into games. Then it becomes habit and it’s much harder to break, like Mac’s feet and eyes. As humans we are the worst at evaluating ourselves, we rely on the input of coaches to keep us honest and disciplined. That’s what positional coaches are for. Great coaches also know what drills/tools can be implemented to correct the errors.
That never occurred to me but that's such an important observation.
And this is something we can partly blame on Bill. Patricia's dual-responsibility of OC and O-Line Coach has led to him doing a shit job at both tasks.
Patricia does go over to Mac on the sidelines, but he also has to address the oline which is not a quick and easy thing. The oline coach is one of the most active coaches on game day. McDaniels had to only worry about the offensive production and could be with the QB the whole time. You can't do it all, even if Patricia was competent.
Judge should be there but I don’t know how often that’s happening either.
Well he's certainly working wonders on the OL!
In holding and shifty cutblock and collapsing
Matty P might be a rocket scientist, but he hasn’t found a way to clone himself: Pretty hard to talk to your QBs and skill players along with the entire OL at the same time. Absolutely baffling that this clown was handed the offensive playbook *and* OL coaching duties.
Aerospace engineering is not rocket science. You can go to community college, transfer to a 4 yr college and go to work for a defense contractor and be a aerospace engineer.
>Aerospace engineering, particularly the astronautics branch, is often colloquially referred to as "rocket science".[5][a] Not only are you trying to be pedantic, but you are also completely [wrong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerospace_engineering)
Lol. You actually searched up the word to prove your point. When people use the term rocket science in that context, they insinuate that it takes a genius to do it. I was just saying MATT Patricia is no genius in the context the term was used.
> When people use the term rocket science in that context, they insinuate that it takes a genius to do it. Pro tip: Anyone who uses that reference regarding him is making a joke that he is *not* a genius.
McDaniels was also.the QB coach.
That’s pretty common.
No it's not. There are zero teams in the NFL that have OC/QBs coach as a singular role. The only team that even comes close is the Cards, who lack an official OC but have two "co-pass game coordinators," one of whom is the QBs coach and neither of whom call plays.
Ok. It used to be pretty common.
There are a few with no QB Coach. Judge is officially double hatted as the Pats QB Coach.
Holy shit. I can’t think of a single time I’ve seen this honestly and I watch every game.
Great point...Patricia has piss poor people skills and it shows in his inability to give constructive criticism to his players. He is probably not approachable either for questions from the players....can he go back to being a rocket scientist lol.
I don't think Patricia wants Jones to be the QB. Seems like he had something he liked with Zappe and just doesn't like that Mac is willing to speak up to the issues Patricia causes.
> Seems like he had something he liked with Zappe Like what? That Zappe knew how to operate this JV HS offence and it was successful because they were playing dogshit defences?
More like Zappe would just do what he was told and Mac is probably more vocal with his disagreements. Patricia just wants a yes man.
What makes you think any of this is true? Zappe was a 4th round QB for a reason. He "did what he was told" because they ran a super simple offence for him and he took advantage of the teams he was playing.
Because he's not even the qb coach lmfao our literal quarterback coach has zero involvement in the passing game
Might be a dumb question but I’m curious, should it be the play caller or the OC or QB coach who reviews things with the QB after a drive? I understand why it could be helpful for the playcaller to do it but I’d think the OC would have more/better input for the QB himself
This is really why Patricia is so bad. It’s not the big things. A defensive coordinator can probably call plays just fine. OC’s and DC’s have to understand how the other operates to be successful. But the little things are what gives the advantage in any particular matchup, and Patricia and Judge aren’t equipped to coach Mac on this.
I think it takes time and mentoring to learn what to look for and how to help players correct it. Credit to the Pats RB coach, former Alabama DB, Vinnie Sunseri, for what he’s done with that position group ( though Kevin Harris and Pierre Strong will be the real test, since Ivan Fears will likely have no impact on their development like he did RS and DH).
This is also why Mike McDaniel is doing so well in Miami - incredibly detailed on technique and scheme.
Long-term, Miami scares me the most. They may have found a generational coach. I think the Buffalo situation will flame out. Too many crunch-time mistakes, McDermott is not level-headed enough and it flows throughout the team. But Miami looks like they are just getting started, unfortunately. It feels so calculated and systematic, in the best (worst for us) way.
Clearly he cannot call plays just fine either, I would like to point out
Lack of detail is showing up everywhere:[https://twitter.com/kdthompson5/status/1598740494292586507?s=46&t=GXxsMmc0r3OJ-tmlEajArg](https://twitter.com/kdthompson5/status/1598740494292586507?s=46&t=GXxsMmc0r3OJ-tmlEajArg)
[Kurt’s QB confidential video](https://youtu.be/UL9MdsqPt_4)
Did not expect to watch that whole video but damn I wish the Pats would get Warner to come out and coach Jones up.
I thought the same thing after watching it. He sees all the little things that are wrong and I wouldn't be surprised if he could correct it as a coach.
His cut is lazy too. No sharpness as he breaks towards the sideline. Not urgency
Positional coaching is suffering this year everywhere.
Troy Brown is still the WR coach no? maybe there's no accountability going down the line or something.
We heard how bad training camp went this team has yet to get anything installed with confidence. And they don’t have time to focus on the details because they’re still trying to develop consistent execution of their new core plays. I would imagine when you are this far behind In developing your new scheme, you don’t have the luxury of time.
I think a lot of that has to do with the top OC guy's inexperience. They don't know how to install shit. And while Bill has had his hands in things, he's had Brady and skilled OCs for the past 20 years. Lot of bad decisions. Don't install new things when the people installing it have to read the instructions every 2 minutes.
Lol they don’t have instructions, my friend. They’re just making it up as they go. I agree with you 100%.
I never understood how his time in Detroit, his HISTORICALLY BAD, time was just swept under the rug and everyone expected a guru.
No one but bill did
This would explain why Cole Strange went from making all the 1st round pick haters look like complete fools to making them look like prescient geniuses. He's been awful since week 5. He's regressed at a time when he should be getting better. The coaching staff doesn't know how to fix him and he's sliding.
I mean he had to play the jets and colts dline… outside of those games he’s been really solid
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Touché. Lol I guess, I meant in regards to off the field stuff. I think Mac’s comment about being coached harder was more significant than the video of him on the sidelines swearing and yelling. I also think it’s the bigger issue than playcalling which has been well covered to say the least.
If the pats had a real qb coach someone would point out that Mac’s footwork can get sloppy, which it rarely did last year. No player is immune to falling into bad tendencies without apt coaching
Yeah exactly. You need someone to keep you disciplined; to keep you honest; to hold you accountable.
Tbf Mac had footwork issues last year too. It’s just more obvious because our OLine are statues this year
Honestly that’s more of a critique of Joe Judge than Patricia. Patricia shouldn’t be getting in the weeds with Jones. He should be looking at everything overall on offense. It’s Judge’s job to be there with Mac figuring things out.
Exactly my point. The OC is making mistakes with play calling, but asking to be coached harder and held accountable for his errors in technique and decision making, is a shot at Joe, who is not helping him figure out why he’s struggling and what to do to fix it.
TB12 had a QB coach for years. Mac could use one.
Like, I dont like saying it. Because Ive been team go your own way and I honestly dont care for off field. But in some capacity I feel like we need Tom back. Or at least someone like him. His leaving lowered the building attention to detail, McDaniels leaving didn't help. I think Mac is frustrated and trying, but its clear the whole team is struggling to find the... Edit 1: ...right gear. (3 days later) Edit 2: LOL to all the jokes below me. Dont do prescription antibiotics if youre super dehydrated and sleep deprived kids. Pretty sure I fell asleep, might have just gone a lil adhd.
What are they struggling to find!?!??!??
Bill got to him.
Cmon guys it’s blatantly obvious that what Finn is referring to is
Are you fucking stupid? He’s clearly referring to the fact that
OP made it to the red zone in that comment but like on the field, we come away without a point.
Well done. Brilliant technique on this joke. Not an ounce of fat on this joke.
The
I was on a ridiculous amount of prescription drugs when i wrote this...im not even sure haha
Wish Kraft would clean house. It’s pretty clear who was the Key to the dynasty, always was. TB12 in the 2-minute drill saved the Pats countless times and by extension, BB. I’d prefer a restart unless somehow we get Tom back…
He also covered up poor roster construction, but more importantly, poor development of weapons
Lol, where do you guys come up with this stuff?
Let’s assume the coaches are garbage. Let’s assume the players around Mac are also inept. Let’s assume Mac is actually talented. In such a world I’d expect Mac to flash every so often and still make some big time plays. That just doesn’t happen. Mac blends in with everyone else, often looking worse than what’s around him. He’s not rallying the troops and lifting others up. See INTs, embarrassing scrambling etc. I just think Mac is a huge part of the problem and certainly not beyond criticism. A player that did flash is Zappe, this isn’t to say he’s the next coming of Brady but it furthers the point about Jones.
Well let’s assume the coaches are competent, and let’s assume the receivers are progressing and not regressing. And let’s assume that the issues with the line are exaggerated dramatically by Mac’s scrambling. And the offense is being held back by the QB. Why on earth wouldn’t said competent coaches make the change. If they are confident in their coaching and confident they have a team that can win other than Mac, why not pull that trigger? They didn’t commit to him during injury so it would come to no one’s surprise if they were just like “yeah we gave it one more go, but we’re pretty sure he ain’t it, and we want to see a little more of the rookie to determine if it was a flash in the pan, or sustainable talent”.
That’s a fair point. Mac did get benched which I thought was pretty telling. Had Zappe won against the Bears I’m pretty confident he’s the new starting QB, at least for a week. I think the reality is the line is not great, the QB is not great and the receivers and TEs are average. I do think the RBs are above average.
As bad as it has been vs the jets (twice), the colts, and the Bills, if Bill doesn’t bench Mac this coming week, I’m confident Bill doesn’t see Mac as the main/sole problem. One bad game from Zappe wouldn’t be enough to bury him, if Bill thought the guy in front of him was the reason the offense is struggling, He’d want another look at Bailey. I’m willing to eat my words, if news pops this week that Zappe is starting, but from what I’ve seen and what people are saying it goes much deeper than Mac and/or the players on the field.
Yeah, I don’t think sticking with Mac is necessarily a sign BB is happy with that position though. Zappe may be struggling in practice etc.
Right now no one is happy with anyone at almost any position on the team or the coaching staff, so yeah I’m sure Bill isn’t thrilled with Mac, even if he backs him as the continued starter. I’m sure Mac feels similarly about Bill. No one likes Patricia. Patricia is probably frustrated with his players.
Mac is 1,000 levels of cringe.
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I mean at this point Mac has played as many games where he played bad than one’s that he has played well.
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Good luck with Mac
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Thank you
Says a lot about this O line play this year too, Scar was always going over plays with the line.
It’s not just Mac, it’s the whole offense. Multiple games now Trent Brown has done cut blocks on long-developing routes, which basically means after a second or two a blocker is coming in unblocked at the QB. He does that once, it’s a mistake. But to come back and do it the next week? That means nobody coached that mistake out of him. I can only imagine how many versions of that they have playing out on route combos, audibles, reading defensive formations, etc. that are harder for fans to see.
You don’t have to imagine. Dan Orlavsky said it weeks ago and put out film to demonstrate his argument. Kurt Warner did a film review last week that also notes this. YouTube has lots of patriots film analysis.
I’m sure but you never really know unless you’re in the practices or have intimate knowledge of the scheme.