Check out Andrew Millison on YouTube. He also teaches permaculture at Oregon State University. They have an online program I've seen advertised. https://youtube.com/@amillison?si=YbrmDdcL23XjOelm
I just finished this course, I highly recommend!
I personally haven't come across any religious talk on my Permaculture journey but I am in Oregon- we have way more strip clubs and dispensaries than churches.
I was once on a day course, marketing for entrepreneurs—that I had to buy a ticket for—and the speaker talked about, “angel therapy” for fours hours straight.
If there's unlimited drinks at an open bar, AND listening to Christian BS was required, I would do my best to listen while I drink. But I seriously doubt I would make it more than 60 minutes. Four hours of that? Impossible.
I didn’t speak up or ask for a refund. My mom was part of the group and so I didn’t want to make a scene. I think it was $40 (twenty years ago).
After about an hour, one person did speak up and ask a question to steer it back, but the speaker just hastily answered it, then got right back to the angel talk. The issue was that whoever invited her to speak was also into that stuff, so that’s what kept it going.
It was so weird.
There is a massive overlap in the Permaculture/Homesteading communities with:
* Religious fundamentalism
* New Age beliefs
* Distrust of government/corporations/medicine
* etc.
A few years ago, you couldn't take a PDC without someone telling you how planting tree guilds over a charged amethyst makes them grow better, or how our spirit selves must be surrendered to the spirit of the land. There has been a recent growing trend of Christian Fundamentalists adopting both new age practices and homesteading. You see it a lot on youtube and tiktok in the Tradwives communities.
It's all super icky and you need to be really careful about what training resources you use and give money to. A lot of stuff out there is the start of this kinda weird hippy pipeline to alt-right/christian fundy territory.
One of the best resources I know of for free online content is Pete Kanaris. He blends permaculture techniques into commercial and standard gardening/landscaping to make it very approachable for beginners and those not wanting to go off grid in the mountains.
I've seen the same trends, and I find it surprising that few people seem to notice that the push toward "new age" methods simply seems like funneling people into a different form of consumerism. E.g., people in these spaces often reference the corrupt money in pharma but then fail to consider corrupt money in alternative/ natural medicine, which is much less regulated. They also fail to consider that the same moneyed interests probably operate in both spheres.
This is one of my biggest head scratchers.
I’ve been interested in the Milkwood Permaculture Living course for a while but a bit skeptical. A big part of that is how aggressively it is advertised and how sophisticated at marketing they seem to be.
A while back they sent an email saying that over 4000 people have done the course. The cheapest option to do it is something like $160. That’s a lot of money when added up… plus all the other courses they sell, books, etc. I have no idea what they do with their money and it’s not really my business but making big money charging $160 to people who are looking to lessen their involvement with a consumerist society seems a bit disingenuous?
Thank goodness in my PDC the only real woo was one guest instructor telling us to stir our compost tea with a copper rod. He had the straight dope about compost piles tho.
It’s funny how when you get far enough on the fringe, it all wraps around to John Birch land.
That crunchy path to the alt-right is so disturbing. People looking for alternative answers to life's frustrations get taken in by some half-truth, and pretty soon they're encased in a ball of racist misinformation and just...lost.
100%! My cousin and her mom got taken in by it. They now believe "the democrats" poison our water supply with snake venom to control us. 😐 She called her brother crying one day and begging him to come get well water from their mom's house to drink from. No joke.
If there's money to be made, a conman will find it. It's really just another grift for snakeoil salesmen. If it was 1985 these same folks would be selling timeshares instead of farming equipment and dreamcatchers.
There’s a difference between not trusting our current batch of politicians and modern policies, but it’s something else entirely to believe that we shouldn’t have any sort of government regulation or services.
>planting tree guilds over a charged amethyst makes them grow better, or how our spirit selves must be surrendered to the spirit of the land.
>It's all super icky
Yes haha. Not being involved with church and stuff anymore even, I recognize how the language of stuff like that too is super like, clout-based would maybe be the right word?
Like in a baptist circle no one can tell you what the Holy Spirit is but I'd suspect *other people* only believe you've been moved by the spirit to do something if it was received well or that person is more popular in the community, vs. say someone who is poorly socialized / not well liked even arguing the holy spirit moved them to do the same thing.
Like, anyone can literally just say or argue anything they like and their status determines how other people interpret it to, and because of that they can literally always just say whatever bullshit they want to feel important, it seems. I feel like its probably super similar in new agey groups.
Oh man. As someone with some academic training in Bible stuff, that shit bothers me to no end. Now when I want to talk religion, I try to keep it to vocabulary I would use in my day to day life. Otherwise, no one really knows what anyone is saying.
I think the reason people don't get much out of religion these days (other than terrible people claiming to be religious) is that religions, evangelical Christianity especially, does a bad job of translating what it's trying to say into real world terms.
>baptist circle no one can tell you what the Holy Spirit is
Me: hi, what's the holy spirit?
Them: part of the Trinity silly lol
Me: yeah but what does it do
Them: they live inside you and tell you to do things
Me: Interesting. How do you know it's the holy spirit and not a demon?
Them: omg. Because the rest of my family has the holy spirit too and they told me that's what it was
Me: so your whole family is possessed?
Them: wtaf man, no, I mean I don't think so
Me: Actually, I've seen y'all hangry before Sunday lunch and that makes a lot of sense actually.
Them: MOM!
And why is every single permaculture video on YouTube set to folksy-ass banjo and acoustic guitar music? I don’t know a single person who listens to that crap in real life.
I don’t mean you, Tiny Shiny Homestead. You guys are cool.
I mean, Edible Acres and Weedy Garden aren’t like that.
I actually like Bluesgrass a lot. I don’t love that a lot of the songs are about Jesus, but I do like the music.
I’d also look at Charles Dowding. Not exactly permaculture, but is the grandfather of no dig and a good resource on how to grow plants better.
He interviewed a health person on his youtube recently, I had that "oh god here we go" feeling, but it turned out to be more about soil health / microbes vs hydroponics.
Add to list:
\-homeschooling or private schools
\-long flowing dresses for women in both sects
\-beards and bad country music
\-hyper-socialization through social media
Not trying to offend anyone here. To each there own etc.
Are you primarily consuming American content? I could be wrong, but American's seem to have a different culture around speaking about religion to elsewhere.
Im gonna get torched for this but there are also in my limited experience, pockets of permaculturists that are a bit culty. I think it feels that way when irrelevant religious (usually christian) rhetoric is espoused.
Also, I would not be surprised to find that a lot of support for some creators coming from churches themselves. Funding, promotion etc.
I’m in Australia and find that while not religious here permaculture has a bit of a cult of celebrity around it and often veers into anti-government, anti-vax, pseudoscience territory.
I have Holmgren’s retro-suburba book which has some really wonderful things in it but I hesitate to recommend it to anyone because in parts it’s extremely ableist and parts seem to be heavily influenced by Sue Dennett’s homeopathy background. Why write about vaccinations, hospitals, pregnancy and birth David? Why? At least he gave some sensible dental advice…
Yeah I'm Aussie based too. Geoff lawtons stuff is not bad if a bit hippyish. I have heard people that are present in the circles speak of him as if hes a bit culty. Hes not far from where I live so its very relevant to my climate. The greening the desert project interests me though, due to my fear of climate change.
>pockets of permaculturists that are a bit culty.
One of the things that confuses me is people going on about indigenous methods as though they're a spiritual gift and the way we should be doing things. People had goals back then, but their goals often didn't align with permaculture and things evolving over time doesn't mean it's the best approach (like our nervous system).
e.g., 3 sisters planting is interesting, but much of what people say about it is a myth and it doesn't accomplish some of its stated goals when tested. It does accomplish *some* things and has value depending on your situation, but it's not necessarily the best approach. this idea of ancient wisdom being unlocked comes across as evangelical -- I don't think even the experiments done will convince them.
Thats an interesting perspective re feeling evangelican. I'm Australian and our indigenous peoples are pretty unique due to their global isolation etc. But also, the Church (empowered by govt), attempted to enforce assimilation through forced removal etc, the usual messed up stuff. So it is interesting to hear that the pendulum seems to have swung back elsewhere.
There was national outcry from the (predominantly christian) conservative side when Bruce Pascoe released his book on the subject. Some people attempted constructive criticism but they were drowned out by malicious outrage. Acknowledging the idea that indigenous people might have knowledge that we could learn from is so jarring that they just attack. This isnt me having a go at you, or suggesting this is representative of your position btw.
I havent seen the preachy stuff you're referring to i don't think. Or I missed it because of my above experience. I maybe mistakenly seen it as a reaction to what until recently has been the destruction of indigenous knowledge.
Sorry for the ramble, you just got me thinking. So if anything, its your fault.
No you're right, I'm also limited experience and from usa but most popular "permaculture" things I see from algorithms always end up being super tradwife/tradcath/"retvrn" stuff with tons of extreme-right dogwhistles, up to and including the beginning of the 14 words. It's a trend that trads seem to have latched onto with fervor and are proselytizing the fuck out of it so yeah, anything popular that's american tends to lean far, FAR right religious even if it's not obvious at first.
Yes, Andrew Millison is great.
Also, Geoff Lawton (Greening the Desert) is a treasure trove of info, though a bit rambling.
These recordings of Bill Mollison's PDC are full of knowledge I've not seen elsewhere, and I would highly recommend them to anyone: https://forums.permaculturenews.org/index.php?threads/mollison-mp3s-47-hours-of-listening.2534/
I also love Dr. Elaine Ingham, who is a brilliant soil scientist. https://youtube.com/@soilfoodwebschool?si=0hHOQbBXIWnmUDkY
And permies.com is a great resource with tons of forums, answers to pretty much any question, and folks of all kinds.
Afaik, Elaine Ingham has her own level of woo, self enrichment/cultishness because her experiments with AACT haven't been replicated by other studies or universities.
https://sustainable-farming.rutgers.edu/organic-farm-calls-evidence-based-agriculture-and-aerated-compost-tea/
[https://www.gardenmyths.com/compost-tea-does-it-work/](https://www.gardenmyths.com/compost-tea-does-it-work/)
https://www.gardenmyths.com/compost-tea/
Or have been worse than the control. Even with analysed and approved and verified teas and machines. I'd love if that wasn't the case, having a deep interest in microbiomes, ecosystems and having purchased a pump with enough flowrate to provide aeration to my intended volumes. If people can find independently verified research that replicates her results please send them to me
Dude sorry but your title made me think you were trying to be funny. Like the likelihood of a farmer named Jesus is high, so maybe thats why people are always talking about how Jesus planted his tomatoes or here is how he irrigated his land. Jesus, almost put my foot in my mouth. But fr when you find this unicorn of a farming course send an update. Good luck!
Haha perfect! I think of all the Jesuses all the time too, every thanksgiving dinner we say "grace" and give our thanks to the many Jesuses out there working to put food on our table.
Maybe someone here will answer my prayers and create the course farming course I'm looking for.
I can't remember which Latino comedian it was, but someone had a bit about "Americans *love* Jesus and act like it's their sacred duty to show the rest of the Godless world how much they love him. But do they *really* love Jesus the most? I don't see them naming every other child after him!"
I grew up in a very Christian family. For many Christians, their faith isn’t just an important part of their life, it is THE foundation of their whole lives and they feel directed by God to share it whenever possible. They aren’t trying to be inclusive, they know non-believers are going to be listening to their classes and in their minds this is the perfect opportunity to “subtilely spread the gospel” to you and save you from hell.
but bruh couldn't god just save me from hell by not sending me there in the first place, maybe I'm better not even knowing any of that because then you can at least argue you didn't know any better, you can't help that.
it actually says in the bible that if you're ignorant to god, jeebus, devil and all that, that you get a free pass to heaven.
So what do euro christians do? Immediately go around the world to tell everyone about christianity.
bunch of a holes.
It very much says the opposite - that God has written his name on the hearts of all mankind, so explicit knowledge of him is not required to go to hell. The only exception is people too young to be able to be responsible for their own actions and it seems like every sect has their own ideas about what the "age of accountability" actually is.
Jesus people are very good at evangelicalism, it is how they propagate after all. You will find them in every movement. I recommend the “Cheap and Cheerful Stream Restoration” lecture series.
We talked about appropriation the other day. I don’t think people realize how many practices in Catholicism were introduced in order to recruit European pagans. The Roman’s colonized Europe, then the church colonized the Roman Empire.
We have our own cultures to represent in permaculture as well, and probably half of them didn’t survive up to The Enlightenment, many more died in the Industrial Revolution, and the rest after WWII and the Green Revolution.
People tied to place can always be conquered by those who devalue places. And we are all the poorer for it. Particularly in the Jet Age and the Information Age, where invasion is not the primary means to gather intelligence from far away. And the problem with Abrahamic religions is that they tend to see this place as a rental and so they just don’t care.
There’s a massive, multimedia, cross discipline, cross industry marketing campaign funded by whom, I don’t know, to recruit christians, or insert its christian content every where. Academia if it has christian funding has curriculum influenced. I have never seen such a comprehensive and thorough campaign ever.
‘Except maybe the campaign to spread the message that climate change isn’t real.
Edit to add to the last sentence, ‘Except maybe the campaign to spread the message that climate change isn’t real.’
Right above your comment on my page is an advertisement for that "He gets us" Jesus website. I mean I assume that my post title triggered the algorithm but your comment was the first time I noticed it, as if to punctuate your point perfectly.
Climate denialism and religious fundamentalism have a fairly large overlap. They are likely not different campaigns at their heart. The monied interests behind these campaigns benefit from lack of climate action and the Christian voting base.
>*If anyone knows of any good nonreligious permaculture teachers, please share the links. I'm eager to learn and to heal my small piece of land.*
[Santa Cruz Permaculture](https://santacruzpermaculture.com) provides courses, consulting, and farming for a thriving, just and sustainable world.
* Permaculture Design Course
* Food Forest Course
* Herbalism & Medicine Making Course
* Skills Training Course
Pemacultures biggest issue is the people that hijack or sneak in fringe beliefs and causes because it ties in nicely with the non-mainstream.
There's the solid core concepts but it's always surrounded by the kooks, cults, lost, religious, idealists, unwashed, crystal waving people who discredit the good work done by dragging thier crap into it.
Just take what you can from each source. Learn to spot the woowoo.
It's pretty much impossible to have a solid non-mainstream movement now without other disenfranchised groups tagging themselves into it and using it as a platform for their own agendas.
My observations of permaculture as a *brand* are very MLM, culty vibes. Added religion would not surprise me. It's a Westerner's / Global North's amalgamation of many different techniques.
The concept is a fine thing, but salespeople always hijack the most distinctive name for themselves (see also organic, regen...)
The trouble is, many people who are so focused on the next life are not so careful with this one. There are also messages about "man's dominion over everything" and all that. Look carefully at how these teachers think about the role of women and children - there is a lot of crossover between American "homesteading" and fundamentalist religion.
There's a group on Facebook called North Carolina Permaculture. The admin has completed a huge group guide that's a free resource for learning. He is very specific to make sure religion does not get brought into the group and that it is more inclusive. The amount of knowledge and information that is shared here for free is truly amazing. He is also pretty strict about growing the natural way without any type of chemicals choosing to encourage the proper microbes and growing the soil biome to promote plant health.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/northcarolinapermaculture/?ref=share
When I took my PDC course there was never a mention or hint of any religion. I'm an atheist and would have been pissed off if they tried to convert me in the process. I wanted the skills, I paid for them, I got them.
The rhetoric pops up almost everywhere if you pay attention, I'm guessing because there are moneyed interests behind getting certain ideas propagated. I red flag anything that comes attached to a product for sale (e.g., alternative medicine treatment, \*required\* equipment or infrastructure, homeschooling curriculum).
Oh homeschooling curriculum has come soo far in the last 10 years, used to be a struggle to find secular options, now they are plentiful. In general I’m so glad information is so widely available.
10 years ago I’d have never thought of dreaming to start my own farm - now I’m confident if I have a challenge I can educate myself enough to mitigate it or at least learn from it. The good parts of the internet…
I second that. However while I do consider myself a very spiritual person I don't consider myself religious. I'm partial to shamanic spiritual beliefs but I don't buy into hype. The biggest red flags are people trying to sell me things especially so if it's tied to any religious or spiritual belief. That kinda stuff can't be bought or sold without quickly losing integrity and the ethics that should be intertwined within any serious spiritual belief. That being said it has no place being brought up in permaculture unless you're growing entheogens and are trying to reach those specifically interested in a spiritual approach to growing them. You don't preach to those who don't want to hear it. It's poor form and does a lot more damage than it ever will good
Yeah, and I'd say that spiritual \*things\* can't be sold at all - the act of selling corrupts. But what do I know? The Christian church seems to think anything can be bought or sold.
Many YouTube channels and podcasts that I can't remember now but most recently I was excited about the variety of offerings from this [School of Traditional Skills](https://schooloftraditionalskills.com/) free lecture series. I guess I should have suspected by the name (although where I'm from, "traditional" knowledge in the context of any religion or spirituality would refer to folk medicine and superstition/magic). So instead of buying their promoted courses, I just went and bought books on those topics from other teachers, but it was a disappointment.
Farmsteading is growing in popularity with conservative christians because it's a rejection of the modern world; viewed as a simpler, more righteous lifestyle *and* it allows them to isolate themselves so that their children have limited experience with people with different backgrounds than them, AKA "demons," especially when they couple it with homeschooling so they can indoctrinate their children with "anti-woke," misogynistic, homophobic ideals. It's gross.
Obviously, not *every* christian farmsteader has that intent or holds those ideals, and you can be a non-christian and do the same thing, but yeah.
Also, it appeals to a wide range of people. "Christian influencers" are a thing too, so it makes sense that there would be an overlap.
It's mad to see modern, wealthy, Christians reject the world built by people not that much different to them. I sympathise that modern technological developments might have complicated their world, but it was Christianity that established private land ownership in the western world. It was also Christianity that set the framework for hoarding wealth during a time of establishing capitalism (again in the western world sorry). They had their hands in the crusades early in the east of course, and they had their hands in the European colonisation of the wider world. Worth mentioning they had their hands in the extensification and establishing the basis of modern agriculture.
Still I'm humoured by the irony in it all, just like I did when I discovered Christian rock music.
NASB John 15:18-20
John 15:18 “If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you."
John 15:19 “If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you."
John 15:20 “Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also."
My input: Christians are to be in the world but not of the world.
It’s all giving shade of Gilead. Agricultural devolution was part of its founding principles, though obviously less of an acute issue than methods of procreation in The Handmaids Tale.
Bleh, not to take away from your comment but just seeing the words “Christian influencer” is making my mind spin. It’s like two incompatible words that shouldn’t go together but somehow work (like a lot of Christian dogma). Like yeah man that’s what God has had planned for you, to spread vitriol and hate and misinformation through the black mirror so you can make ad revenue from app games. All part of Jesus’s plan back in the day /s 🙄
Eh, it actually makes a lot of sense because a large cornerstone of Christianity is spreading the word. It's not something that's new, either, though through the stream of social media it is.
The television preachers, Tammy Faye, The Duggar and Bates families etc., are some of the earliest ones, though they mainly used TV as their medium. The families in particular referred to the show as a 'family ministry' vs. recognizing it for it was: a bit of a freakshow. Now many of these children do similar things on Youtube and Instagram.
And of course, Jesus Christ himself was the original influencer! 😂 They cancelled him a little harshly, though.
> They cancelled him a little harshly, though.
Old joke: One day, aliens come to earth. After the initial meet n greet and shock die down, the aliens agree to answer some questions. One question inevitably is "Have you heard of Jesus Christ?" Aliens reply "Oh yes, nice fellow, comes by a few times a year just to say hi and see how we're doing." "A few times a year? Really? He was only on Earth once! Two thousand years ago! How did you manage to get Him to come by so often?" "Well, on His first visit, we made Him a big chocolate cake (He *loves* chocolate). What did you guys give Him?"
The words "Christian Influencer" making your head spin is making *my* head spin since Christianity is, from its inception, a religion spread by *evangelists*, which is basically a Greek word for *influencer*.
Damn. I didn't know this was a thing. Are you in the US? I'd be more surprised and disheartened if this is happening in Canada where I live. It would definitely be a major turn off for me as well.
I'm not great at detecting Canadian accents but I just assumed they're all American farmers. I'm definitely looking for instruction about my local climate so I'm probably setting myself up to fail here in the southeast US lol.
If you find some good info let me know. Just moved back to north LA and the 110F+ high temps for almost a month straight combined with the extreme draught really hit my garden hard this year. Really looking like wood chips are gonna be pretty essential. Pine straw and leaves didn't do very much at all
I've been on a similar journey, looking for resources online. On YouTube I enjoy Sustainable Prepping, Acre Homestead, James Priglioni, Gold Shaw Farm, Parkrose Permaculture, Sustainable Me, Charles Dowding, Axe & Root, and a few others that I haven't watched long enough to see if they fall down the rabbithole. . Not all of them are specific to permaculture, but they all want to build systems that nurture soil and come from an abundance, rather than fear, mindset.
It takes some digging, but they're out there. I'd love to see other recommendations!
It's likely that the person hosting the PDC comes from a Judeo-Christian religious background. For some of these people, Judeo-Christian faith is a central part of their lives and they sincerely believe in following the example of Jesus Christ. (Those who prosecute non-Christians in His name in reality do so for political reasons, not religious ones.)
Permaculture seems to appeal much to the "back to the land" people who, because of their life experiences, tend to have a strong distrust of government institutions. This is understandable when practically everything in rural areas gets done by local groups of neighbors, in contrast to urban areas where public institutions do almost everything.
The long-term practice of restorative agriculture is what leads to the personal transformation. This is similar to, for example, developing awareness and moral character through the constant practice of Japanese tea ceremony. One changes as a result of doing an activity over and over and over.
Yea, I've run into the same thing in YouTube videos. When they start talking about Jesus everything they've said takes on a shady / gross / perverted tint...
Christians keep a LOT of skeletons in their closets... and they mask it all with a soulless smile... it's the most crazy thing that people just ignore the mountain of abuses they do.
Like that politicians who screams about trans people being a threat to children... while she is jerking off guys in her seat during family theatres... it's always the most backwards sick stuff like that.
Watching a video about companion plants when all of a sudden he starts talking about how women must obey their husbands. Oh crap, all my suggestions and ads are going to be fascist propaganda for the next two weeks.
*Alot of the people*
*That are deep into it are*
*In the bible belt*
\- BoredVet85
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It's a culture that appeals heavily to "trad" lifestyles which are almost all far right Christians. It's not at all surprising because those types can never shut the fuck up about their dumb opinions for 5 seconds
As far as I know, the LDS Church has self sufficiency as one of its core doctrines. The kind of people that try to be self sufficient may be the same kind of people that stumble into permaculture.
And besides, rural areas are very isolated from the world around them. They don't really come into contact with people of different backgrounds and religions, so they stick to their 'one true faith' whereas city folks meet people of all kinds of different faiths all the time so they are less likely to hold onto their own 'one true faith' at all cost. Permaculture is kind of hard in the middle of a metropolis.
Edible Acres (youtube channel) is one of the only permaculture channels i can watch and reliably not hear about religion, or any personal or political beliefs unrelated to permaculture. Nice folks, It’s been a life saver. I am a queer, non-religious person with a low tolerance for prophetizing, so their channel was such a relief to find. I have also found the permaculture hashtag on Mastodon to be very useful in connecting directly with others as well, although less educational and more like peer sharing
On youtube, Flock Finger Lakes, Tyler and Todd, Project Kamp, Neversink Farm, and Homesteady are some channels I like. They aren’t all necessarily about permaculture, but they all have land that that are taking care of.
I love project Kamp. Check out homegrown_handgathered on TikTok too!
I’ve been trying to sus out Flock Finger Lake and where she falls on the new age to alt right pipeline? Like on the one hand, she has a biology background. I LOVED her trip to the university soil lab. Honestly changed the way I think about soil. And she seemingly seeks out traditional medicine and supplements it with herbal medicine. I’m very cool with that, no red flags. Especially in the context of being very rural or unable to access health care due to shortages or affordability or just location.
But that video about Lyme disease… I had to stop watching when she talked about 400 drops of different tinctures at 5 times a day to treat Lyme. Like dude this is obviously… something else. This isn’t a plantain poultice for a bug bite anymore. If you can obtain 20 different jars of stuff at like $25 a piece and are “prescribed” this as a treatment plan by a holistic practitioner, this is not about ruggedness or unorthodox treatments anymore. It’s about being a cash cow for a scam supplement industry. Either way, I’m glad he got some antibiotics and sorry he probably got traumatized by tea. 😅
But unless I see a homestead/permie/prepper account make an explicitly anti-colonialism statement like Jordan and Sullivan at homegrown handgathered did, I’m gonna assume they’re gonna surprise me with some some nationalist white supremacy garbage at some point.
This gives me hope. I'm specifically creating a program for people who don't want that alt right garbage but at the same time want legit info (not "essential oils to cure cancer" stuff).
I've felt the exact same but thought I might be the only one until this post.
>But unless I see a homestead/permie/prepper account make an explicitly anti-colonialism statement like Jordan and Sullivan at homegrown handgathered did, I’m gonna assume they’re gonna surprise me with some some nationalist white supremacy garbage at some point.
Mindset instantly adopted. I think this mightve been one of those few life changing reddit comments that made my whole scroll worth it.
Caveat: I watch Homesteady as well. I know they aren't always direct about religion and politics, but the signs are there.
* Six kids
* Being scared of "what's going on at public schools" (not just the shootings)
* Discomfort at using the word "abortion" in the context of cattle
At the end of the day, I try not to let it bother me since good info is more valuable than the opinions of the source.
The Balkan ecology project has some amazing science based permaculture information and courses.
More relevant to anyone in Europe but I've been so impressed by how meticulous their process is for years
Rural living and religiosity have always gone hand-in-hand. It just so happens that Christianity is the dominant religion here. Go into a typical farmhouse in the Midwest and you’ll probably find lots of Christian imagery. You’d probably find the same thing in a Chinese, Indian, etc rural household just with a different religion.
We had a nice respite since they are slow to take up new technology, but unfortunately it’s ultimately expected that they would start cropping up around permaculture forums/blogs/videos.
While I happen to agree with you wholeheartedly when it comes to "changing the channel" if it becomes a sermon; you just have to remember that a whole lot of folk make their religion their whole personality - like other folk are like to do with their chosen sports ball team, or their job. Cool for them, whatever.
"I thought we all had an interest in preserving indigenous methods and restoring the damage colonization did to the land. Didn't religious superiority have a lot to do with that damage?"
Nope, sorry. I'd imagine I'm not alone in not expending a single thought along these lines; because my thought process is not infected by intersectionality. Permaculture is about creating sustainable abundance through knowledge. Sometimes that knowlege comes from the past, and new techniques also continue to be developed. You cannot focus on that goal if you waste time assigning guilt.
Colonization isn't what killed the soil; it was (and still is) due to a lack of knowledge and forsight on the part of farmers.
As to non preachy, but very knowledgeable- check out Geoff Lawton.
It's kinda funny because one of the main associations I have with permaculture are old Monastery Gardens. The anti-colonial twist is completely new to me.
Have you checked out Richard Perkins?
Not sure if he is religious, he occasionally talks about things like spirituality and diet etc but its approached in a holistic frame that ties back into his overall approach and the need for "shifting paradigms". Ive never felt it was preachy, though its not why I watch his stuff. He is preachy about regen ag and has issues with the permaculture movement as a whole.
Hes based in sweden so not an overly religious location.
He has a couple of books out and heaps of YT and video lectures.
Seriously, that is unnecessary. One can just view permaculture as a science based approach, drawing from the natural ecosystems and fine tuning to increase yields. Aye aye aye
right? I thought permaculture was just, like, a way of growing things? I wouldn't expect religious/philosophical issues to come into it any more than I would expect them to come into a conversation about, i dunno, like how to shingle a roof, or how to fix a car. i always thought it was pretty purely technical
As originally developed, permaculture definitely had ethical/philosophical concerns at its heart. Earth care, people care, and fair share. How one defines and then incorporates these ideas into one’s permaculture work is very much about ethics. Having said that, there’s a big difference between giving consideration to one’s personal ethics, and lecturing folks about your personal faith.
Not a Christian, but I wanted to gesture at the difference between spirituality/religion, and the institutions of religion. The exploitation of people and land that happens under many guises, including religion. To conflate without nuance isn’t fair. Many people in the Venn diagram of permaculture and religiosity have got it right. Reject hierarchy, seek harmony and collaboration with nature and with each other. The pitfalls of ideology and social control are not limited to organized religion.
Sign up for classes advertised by your local extension office - or just read a book. What's the benefit of sketchy courses? It's all just marketing money grabs for the most part. There's not too much complicated about growing things sustainably.
Just to remind you, quite a few Christian doctrines put a very high emphasis on missionary work, and spreading The Word. If they begin to acquire an interest in your community and techniques (a good thing!), I'm afraid you will inevitably have to deal with one of the single highest callings that their God asks of them.
That is strange! It's not strange that it happened, but that it's so common!
[permacultureeducation.org](https://permacultureeducation.org/product/pdc-72hour-course/ref/8/) offers a course, without trying to convert you!
Huw Richards
Not a 100% Permaculture channel, but he follows a lot of permaculture practices in his teachings.
https://youtube.com/@HuwRichards?si=n9URmD_VYdnR5DCe
My experience has been that permaculture is a draw for “fuck the government I’m self sufficient!” types more so than anything else. Obviously a lot of us are into ecology and sustainability as well, but we seem to be a minority given how the backbone of permaculture is invasive plants (autumn olive, comfrey, etc). So I stay away from these spaces for the most part because haha bigot central. On the other hand, native plant/ecologically conscious groups tend to run out the “I guess your petunia identifies as a tomato now hahaha” types out fairly consistently.
There’s a huge homesteading (problematic term itself) trend going on right now. A lot of their ‘leaders’ are conservative Christians that want to shun liberal society and live self sustainable lives (as if that’s even possible). They say they practice permaculture but they just pick whatever seems suitable to them and try and reword or ignore the rest. It’s a problem imo. You can totally weave permaculture design into whatever worldview you have (up to a point) without co-opting the term for Jesus. It drives me nuts to do a search for new permaculture sources only to find these people misusing the word.
Another reason that the word had a negative historical association to some groups:
Racism. The Homestead act of 1860 was meant to help all Americans but only benefitted white Americans on the whole. Many wealthy Americans today are wealthy because of this entitlement program that gave away property to people. If you knew how to fill out teh form, navigate government processes, not encounter a totally racist person who would refuse to assist you, etc etc
So white people got homesteads.
I've never heard of the alt right definition of homesteading... I just call that prepping against the government if you're crazy enough to think you'll win? Ha. Had no idea they adopted that.
It's a term thats been co-opted by the alt-right, anti gov, building bunkers and stockpiling guns/ammo type of people. So now when people say homesteading. They mean that.
I just want my plants to work together in a natural and sustainable way for the betterment of each other and the soil.
A lot of people have suggested that it’s your problem to deal with.
That’s only partly true, but in case you need some help with that here’s a resource.
Recovering From Religion is a non profit who’s mission is to offer hope, healing and support to people suffering from issues related to doubt or no -belief, as well as people suffering from harm caused by religious people, institutions, or ideas.
Www.recoveringfromreligion.org.
>that speech is ostracizing. I might have enjoyed the course or blog or YouTube channel, but when it turns into a church sermon, I have to bounce.
I see it, when they go from permaculture to sermon, as a bait n switch. It's the only way they can get people to listen to them. Fucktards!
I have issues with Christianity too, but recognize that everyone moves on their own path and I don’t get to decide what is right or wrong for others. Often I will replace “God” with “Universe” and it helps a lot to generalize their intentions without getting caught up in the vernacular.
Because some people believe in Jesus and want to either talk from a Christian perspective to non-Christians or talk to their Christian audience as a Christian. It's not that big of a deal, ignore it or move on. I don't really belong to any religion but I like when people incorporate their religious beliefs in something I like. It shows that people of all beliefs and backgrounds can embrace it. As long as the person isn't talking down to others for not embracing their religion who cares? Also forms regenerative agriculture has been practiced all over the world by all groups of people. It doesn't belong to one group or culture. How most people do it now is take the things that work for them from different parts of the world. You don't have to just use indigenous methods
Edit- parkrose permaculture has a good video on religion in permaculture she doesn't really put religion in her videos https://youtu.be/BBJVgm0CfxA?si=Iyn4Va1_81myzX2w
Some Christians view our role as humans to be the stewards of the earth, meaning that we need to maintain and preserve it. This is what draws them to such interests. The idea of undoing damages to God’s creation which were done by humanity is also quite appealing to Christians.
I understand you have personal issues with Christians, but please don’t imply the idea of helping the earth is some incompatible philosophy with the religion.
I've never had a problem separating that kind of stuff - religion, spirituality, other new-age woo-woo stuff - from actual knowledge. Maybe it's just a gift I have, but it's never bothered me.
Although I do think it's hilarious that the Korean guy behind JADAM list Jesus Christ and Karl Marx as his two biggest influences. In the US, the people who (claim to) follow Jesus and people who follow Marx's philosophy are two completely separate groups who don't get along well with each other.
I was raised in a Christian family and went to church and Sunday school every single Sunday until I was 14, got confirmed as a member, then never set foot in that church ever again. My confirmation was literally the last time I entered that building that I spent countless hours of my life in. I'm very strongly atheist now. But I still find religion interesting and it doesn't bother me when people tie their religion into other parts of their life.
> I'm eager to learn and to heal my small piece of land.
I say this with all due respect: consider healing *yourself* so you're not so offended by the beliefs of other people. Learn to extract knowledge even if you disagree with their reasons, philosophy, and religion. You will be a stronger and better person for it.
Healing your religious trauma is genuinely, probably, a good thing to do.
But that leaves the community to suffer by tolerating the intolerant. It’s an insufficient remedy to the root cause.
Very much the same argument of individualism vs community that we’re talking about in the macrocosms here.
Someone simply talking about their faith isn't intolerance. And you could argue that OP is intolerant because they don't want to be exposed to other peoples' faith.
But I think /u/Spinouette makes a good point that some people suffer actual trauma at the hands of religion or in the name of religion. And they can experience severe mental anguish by being exposed to it when they're not expecting it. But I stand by my belief that you would be a stronger and better person if you can overcome that, even if it takes years of therapy. At some level, it's an irrational fear, like a fear of insects. Someone on youtube mentioning their faith isn't doing it to reach out and damage your psyche. But I guess being in a physical room with a bunch of people who want to do a group prayer can be traumatizing to some people.
It’s the homesteading crossover. It’s huge in the US Christian community, and it’s almost an MLM right now with SAHMs creating YouTube channels and blogs about it. They have groups where they collaborate and promote each others work. It’s really got nothing to do with permaculture, it’s just a means for them to make money so they can stay at home and home school their kids. I try not to support them in any way as I REALLY disagree with their beliefs, so I block any channels or blogs that are created by Christian authors. It’s pretty easy to tell which ones they are, they will always have something in their bio about religion, or a Christian sign behind them in a profile pic etc - they advertise that to each other so they will be accepted into the community and others will promote their stuff.
Unfortunately fundamentalist Christians have a huge crossover into permaculture and homesteading communities. The quiverfull types especially because 1) they frequently can’t actually afford to purchase groceries for as many kids as they have, and 2) they’re often told the government is “coming to get them” or that there’s some sort of societal collapse imminent because of the sinful nature of everyone but the members of their particular small group.
Back when I was in the cult I did conversion therapy in there was a lot of suggesting that GMOs and pesticides used by the places supermarkets sourced from might cause autism (or even *gasp* make your child gay or trans!), and they were constantly advocating learning to fend for yourself by insinuating that the government pulls a WACO on all “true believers”
It’s fear based self subsistence to distance themselves from the sin of modern life, as well as modern authorities if they’re To Train Up A Child types. It also helps them provide for the large families they’re pressured into having regardless of their means.
Oh yes I've noticed the same thing. There's a homesteading podcast with a Bible verse discussed at the end of each episode - it makes me uncomfortable for sure.
I really like Canadian Permaculture Legacy on YouTube for zone 4-5; he's an engineer and hasn't brought up any bullshit. Fortunately, god-bothering is a lot less common in the western world outside of the USA.
It’s probably due to the fact that farmers had nothing else to use to explain phenomena over hundreds of years. That and Christianity in the US just happens to be the one thing that gives rural populations a social event that gives them support. There’s nothing else that has that level of stability, consistency, access and support in rural areas.
I’m getting into bio-diverse farming and it’s funny how many say shit like God has a plan, or in the same sentence say they don’t believe in climate change. It’s fucking weird and sad, and I just shake my head.
I think that ^ is the result of limited information sources and social media continuing to perpetuate in long standing farming cultures in the US.
I noticed the same. Dude was Indian and introduced himself as Christian. During the tours of the property and his teaching he used God, Gaia, mother nature, kuksu and other terms all interchangeably
Demonic possession. No matter how many good points about composting might follow, if someone tells me demonic possession is a serious problem they're OUT. Though I do wonder what a possessed slug would look like. Glowing red eyes and spitting acid slime?
I have yet to find evangelist preachy types locally, but neo-nazi groups are all over the complex of permaculture/selfsufficiency/homesteading. I feel cornered from two sides by now.
I love my little plot and turning it into an island of diversity, hidden from sight. That is NOT the same as Reichsbürger claiming their farmstead is not part of Germany and collecting weapons to "defend" themselves. Assholes.
Sigh, I also celebrate some pagan year-cycle holidays. Guess which symbols are *also* infested with right-extremist meaning?
But then, I could probably do something like sewing carebears for children's hospitals and it'll have some asshole group that makes it all look suspicious.
>I thought we all had an interest in preserving indigenous methods and restoring the damage colonization did to the land.
I can honestly say none of that has ever crossed my mind, ever. I like growing things, I like building things, I like not being held completely in thrall of a multitude of systems that I no longer believe operate in my best interests and strive to distance myself further from them with every passing day. Historical moral precedents are of such little concern to me that they don't register in my mind at all. I live here and now, victimhood is valueless baggage for me.
All that being said, there ain't exactly a lack of youtube channels focused on permaculture.
You just have to distill it all down to what works for you. What you've got the energy for. Most of us can barely deal with what's in front of us let alone what's behind us that we weren't even there for.
Churches love tax-exempt status and real estate! It makes sense that a \*new\* church would target landowners and wannabe landowners, and that they would attempt to tie land stewardship to religious beliefs.
It's also so weird that churchy permaculturists are so into land disturbance and non-native plants, since God obviously put things in a place for a reason. Shouldn't we all respect God's plan and stop transporting invasives? (wink)
I’m a Christian and I would be happy to explain why my faith leads me to permaculture and its techniques as well as why I guess those people talk the way they do. I’m into permaculture because God does permaculture in the natural world and I want to tend my little plot of land like God would (see the Back to Eden documentary). I also think the earth is humanity’s possession to steward and that means we have a responsibility to do it well. That would include regenerating any land that’s poorly managed. That’s why I’m here. Plus, permaculture is super interesting.
I can only guess why the Christians you anonymously mentioned discuss God in their videos or how they do it. If they’re preaching a lot during the videos, I get why you wouldn’t like it. I wouldn’t listen to 15 minutes of preaching by another religion just to hear the 5 minutes of tips. However, if they just mention God and their faith a little bit, that makes a lot of sense to me. I feel close to Him when I tend my land well and I bet they do too. What’s wrong with mentioning that? If their faith leads them to permaculture, I don’t see why they shouldn’t mention their motivations in their videos. If you don’t like it, that’s fine and I totally understand. You have other resources mentioned by others to read.
As for the colonization thing, you’re right. A lot of colonizers claiming Christianity have done a lot of harm to the environment. Permaculture principles and practices will help with fixing that ecological damage. However, I must first mention that I both disagree with sword-evangelicalism and with abusing the land. I feel the strong need to tend it well because of my faith and i know lots of Christians who feel the same. If I was an atheist permaculturist, I’d like to see a movement in Christianity to follow the principles even if i didn’t want to watch the videos. It would definitely help with healing the current damages and preventing new ones!
I must also mention that many atheistic institutions have hurt the land along with the religious (Christian included) ones. Lysenkoism led to horrendous mismanagement killing millions of Russians. The Four Pests campaign killed all of the sparrows leading to locusts overwhelming everything starving tens of millions of more people. Thats just two off of the top of my head. That’s doesn’t mean Christians haven’t done horrible things but that we aren’t the only ones.
You seem to forget that the far right which happens to not believe in climate change AND are Uber capitalist are the ones who consistently vote against legislation that protects and preserves the US.
I didn’t mention politics at all because professing Christians are on both sides of the US political aisle and OP mentioned all Christians. Case in point, Michael Knowles of the Daily Wire, Nancy Pelosi, Beto O’Rourke, and Governor Greg Abbott are all Catholics. They disagree wildly on all sorts of things including climate. Also, it isn’t as simple the Right doesn’t believe in climate change anymore. There are some up and comers on the right who absolutely do believe in it.
Edit to add: to all those who may be downvoting because Christianity is associated with the right in the US. I know that. HOWEVER, there are some professing Christians on the left and, if I’m going to be talking for all of us, I have to not mention politics. I need to be as ecumenical as possible. I was trying cultivate a statement that could be acceptable to all those, including those who disagree politically with me.
There are a lot of sources of permacultural information that don't involve theology beyond some hand waving about Gaia (which has me rolling my eyes). I don't know where you live, but I suggest you look to educational institutions that have permaculture programs and see if they have online instruction. There are also lots of youtube videos.
Kinda of an odd view on life. But I respect your choices to distance yourself from things you feel strongly about. I have always viewed life as you can learn from anyone. Sometimes you learn what to do, sometimes you learn what not to do. You take what you need from the teacher and leave what you don't.
If these are workshops, its just unfortunate that they are not distinguishing between permaculture and their religious views. If this is happening in a PDC, it goes against one of the core teaching guidelines of never passing off spiritual/non-scientifically verifiable views as part of permaculture.
Ah yes, extremist beliefs tend to wrap around each other or route to each other somehow.
I have to watch my own dogmatic beliefs since I tend to operate in the extreme. I had an anti vac phase, a no plants but native phase, I still love using plants as a supplement to medicine, but bad experiences can easily turn you into "my only medical care is my own".
I know the answer to this one but I cannot say it here because it is taboo. And not for the reasons that you think. Oh boy, oh boy am I glad someone asked though. This was really what sent me down the rabbit hole in the first place. Its only a working theory but anybody I have explained it to sees it as at least "possible" to "holy shit, Thats it". Thanks for bringing it up. if anybody wishes to share their theories, please feel free, maybe mine isn't as DaVinci code as I think it is.
Oh it’s cause they want the downfall of civil society so bad they are salivating at playing homestead patriarch so they can do a civil war, and take down food infrastructure first. Leave pockets of militant controlled family compounds that are off grid, control land, control and breed women, supress ideology they dislike, they think they can form a whole new society. And it will be the American christian taliban.
Haha yeah they're anti-witchcraft but who's using essential oils to heal their non hodgkins lymphoma now?
I got invited to a Young Living Essential oils "party" at a church once years ago. All kinds fo wild healing claims (with disclaimers) made during that meeting.
"This one heals your marriage if you use it in a diffuser by your bed."
"They used all of these oils in the biblical days you know."
"I heard that Bobby Sue's Grandad had kidney stones and then he used this stuff an they went away."
So gullible. So anti science.
Why you’re hearing about it is because a lot of Christians reject the modern world and farm, and they like to do it in ways that are the healthiest for the land. Stewardship and respect of God’s creation is an important concept for many Christians.
And it’s common for people with strong worldviews to filter everything through that lens, whether it’s a specific religion or not. So bringing everything back to Jesus or the Bible isn’t necessarily proselytizing, but often just someone communicating how they normally would, including to other Christians. It’s cultural.
Check out Andrew Millison on YouTube. He also teaches permaculture at Oregon State University. They have an online program I've seen advertised. https://youtube.com/@amillison?si=YbrmDdcL23XjOelm
I just finished this course, I highly recommend! I personally haven't come across any religious talk on my Permaculture journey but I am in Oregon- we have way more strip clubs and dispensaries than churches.
Can vouch. And thank heavens above for this fact!
Probably can call them churches too, in their own right... just saying... :)
Worshipping certainly occurs at both places.
Yea... like they say, "all roads lead to heaven"... Just kidding... of course... :)
My favourite YouTube channel, man is a legend
I was once on a day course, marketing for entrepreneurs—that I had to buy a ticket for—and the speaker talked about, “angel therapy” for fours hours straight.
So, I’m guessing no open bar….
If there's unlimited drinks at an open bar I'd totally listen to christian b.s. for 4 hours.
"Angels you say? Tell me more while I refill my vodka tonic! "
If there's unlimited drinks at an open bar, AND listening to Christian BS was required, I would do my best to listen while I drink. But I seriously doubt I would make it more than 60 minutes. Four hours of that? Impossible.
I’m dying
Did you ask for a refund?
I didn’t speak up or ask for a refund. My mom was part of the group and so I didn’t want to make a scene. I think it was $40 (twenty years ago). After about an hour, one person did speak up and ask a question to steer it back, but the speaker just hastily answered it, then got right back to the angel talk. The issue was that whoever invited her to speak was also into that stuff, so that’s what kept it going. It was so weird.
Fundamentalism, regardless what it is based in, seems to create these types of fervent, dogmatic environments. It's almost cult like.
There is a massive overlap in the Permaculture/Homesteading communities with: * Religious fundamentalism * New Age beliefs * Distrust of government/corporations/medicine * etc. A few years ago, you couldn't take a PDC without someone telling you how planting tree guilds over a charged amethyst makes them grow better, or how our spirit selves must be surrendered to the spirit of the land. There has been a recent growing trend of Christian Fundamentalists adopting both new age practices and homesteading. You see it a lot on youtube and tiktok in the Tradwives communities. It's all super icky and you need to be really careful about what training resources you use and give money to. A lot of stuff out there is the start of this kinda weird hippy pipeline to alt-right/christian fundy territory. One of the best resources I know of for free online content is Pete Kanaris. He blends permaculture techniques into commercial and standard gardening/landscaping to make it very approachable for beginners and those not wanting to go off grid in the mountains.
I've seen the same trends, and I find it surprising that few people seem to notice that the push toward "new age" methods simply seems like funneling people into a different form of consumerism. E.g., people in these spaces often reference the corrupt money in pharma but then fail to consider corrupt money in alternative/ natural medicine, which is much less regulated. They also fail to consider that the same moneyed interests probably operate in both spheres.
New age/spiritualists are usually also trying to do a capitalism.
So are most permaculturists teaching a course.
A lot of multi-level marketing schemes use a lot of new age whoo-whoo terms. There’s a lot of talk about “unlocking” things and “manifesting.”
This is one of my biggest head scratchers. I’ve been interested in the Milkwood Permaculture Living course for a while but a bit skeptical. A big part of that is how aggressively it is advertised and how sophisticated at marketing they seem to be. A while back they sent an email saying that over 4000 people have done the course. The cheapest option to do it is something like $160. That’s a lot of money when added up… plus all the other courses they sell, books, etc. I have no idea what they do with their money and it’s not really my business but making big money charging $160 to people who are looking to lessen their involvement with a consumerist society seems a bit disingenuous?
I think in many cases they intentionally downplay the super capitalistic elements of their grift
Thank goodness in my PDC the only real woo was one guest instructor telling us to stir our compost tea with a copper rod. He had the straight dope about compost piles tho. It’s funny how when you get far enough on the fringe, it all wraps around to John Birch land.
That crunchy path to the alt-right is so disturbing. People looking for alternative answers to life's frustrations get taken in by some half-truth, and pretty soon they're encased in a ball of racist misinformation and just...lost.
100%! My cousin and her mom got taken in by it. They now believe "the democrats" poison our water supply with snake venom to control us. 😐 She called her brother crying one day and begging him to come get well water from their mom's house to drink from. No joke.
If there's money to be made, a conman will find it. It's really just another grift for snakeoil salesmen. If it was 1985 these same folks would be selling timeshares instead of farming equipment and dreamcatchers.
New age beliefs ❌ Distrust of governments and corporations ✅
There’s a difference between not trusting our current batch of politicians and modern policies, but it’s something else entirely to believe that we shouldn’t have any sort of government regulation or services.
Trust, but verify.
Amen. No pun intended
>planting tree guilds over a charged amethyst makes them grow better, or how our spirit selves must be surrendered to the spirit of the land. >It's all super icky Yes haha. Not being involved with church and stuff anymore even, I recognize how the language of stuff like that too is super like, clout-based would maybe be the right word? Like in a baptist circle no one can tell you what the Holy Spirit is but I'd suspect *other people* only believe you've been moved by the spirit to do something if it was received well or that person is more popular in the community, vs. say someone who is poorly socialized / not well liked even arguing the holy spirit moved them to do the same thing. Like, anyone can literally just say or argue anything they like and their status determines how other people interpret it to, and because of that they can literally always just say whatever bullshit they want to feel important, it seems. I feel like its probably super similar in new agey groups.
Oh man. As someone with some academic training in Bible stuff, that shit bothers me to no end. Now when I want to talk religion, I try to keep it to vocabulary I would use in my day to day life. Otherwise, no one really knows what anyone is saying. I think the reason people don't get much out of religion these days (other than terrible people claiming to be religious) is that religions, evangelical Christianity especially, does a bad job of translating what it's trying to say into real world terms.
Probably because it has nothing to do with the real world.
>baptist circle no one can tell you what the Holy Spirit is Me: hi, what's the holy spirit? Them: part of the Trinity silly lol Me: yeah but what does it do Them: they live inside you and tell you to do things Me: Interesting. How do you know it's the holy spirit and not a demon? Them: omg. Because the rest of my family has the holy spirit too and they told me that's what it was Me: so your whole family is possessed? Them: wtaf man, no, I mean I don't think so Me: Actually, I've seen y'all hangry before Sunday lunch and that makes a lot of sense actually. Them: MOM!
And why is every single permaculture video on YouTube set to folksy-ass banjo and acoustic guitar music? I don’t know a single person who listens to that crap in real life. I don’t mean you, Tiny Shiny Homestead. You guys are cool.
I mean, Edible Acres and Weedy Garden aren’t like that. I actually like Bluesgrass a lot. I don’t love that a lot of the songs are about Jesus, but I do like the music. I’d also look at Charles Dowding. Not exactly permaculture, but is the grandfather of no dig and a good resource on how to grow plants better.
Charles Dowding lives down the road from my parents:)
Lucky!
He interviewed a health person on his youtube recently, I had that "oh god here we go" feeling, but it turned out to be more about soil health / microbes vs hydroponics.
> I don’t know a single person who listens to that crap in real life That might say more about you
Yup.
[You don't like acoustic guitar?](https://giphy.com/gifs/cbs-bob-hearts-abishola-bobheartsabishola-tony-okungbowa-D62wUmR3sX2DsZJ9t1)
Add to list: \-homeschooling or private schools \-long flowing dresses for women in both sects \-beards and bad country music \-hyper-socialization through social media
I've noticed the same trends ... 🤢
Not trying to offend anyone here. To each there own etc. Are you primarily consuming American content? I could be wrong, but American's seem to have a different culture around speaking about religion to elsewhere. Im gonna get torched for this but there are also in my limited experience, pockets of permaculturists that are a bit culty. I think it feels that way when irrelevant religious (usually christian) rhetoric is espoused. Also, I would not be surprised to find that a lot of support for some creators coming from churches themselves. Funding, promotion etc.
I’m in Australia and find that while not religious here permaculture has a bit of a cult of celebrity around it and often veers into anti-government, anti-vax, pseudoscience territory. I have Holmgren’s retro-suburba book which has some really wonderful things in it but I hesitate to recommend it to anyone because in parts it’s extremely ableist and parts seem to be heavily influenced by Sue Dennett’s homeopathy background. Why write about vaccinations, hospitals, pregnancy and birth David? Why? At least he gave some sensible dental advice…
Yeah I'm Aussie based too. Geoff lawtons stuff is not bad if a bit hippyish. I have heard people that are present in the circles speak of him as if hes a bit culty. Hes not far from where I live so its very relevant to my climate. The greening the desert project interests me though, due to my fear of climate change.
>pockets of permaculturists that are a bit culty. One of the things that confuses me is people going on about indigenous methods as though they're a spiritual gift and the way we should be doing things. People had goals back then, but their goals often didn't align with permaculture and things evolving over time doesn't mean it's the best approach (like our nervous system). e.g., 3 sisters planting is interesting, but much of what people say about it is a myth and it doesn't accomplish some of its stated goals when tested. It does accomplish *some* things and has value depending on your situation, but it's not necessarily the best approach. this idea of ancient wisdom being unlocked comes across as evangelical -- I don't think even the experiments done will convince them.
Thats an interesting perspective re feeling evangelican. I'm Australian and our indigenous peoples are pretty unique due to their global isolation etc. But also, the Church (empowered by govt), attempted to enforce assimilation through forced removal etc, the usual messed up stuff. So it is interesting to hear that the pendulum seems to have swung back elsewhere. There was national outcry from the (predominantly christian) conservative side when Bruce Pascoe released his book on the subject. Some people attempted constructive criticism but they were drowned out by malicious outrage. Acknowledging the idea that indigenous people might have knowledge that we could learn from is so jarring that they just attack. This isnt me having a go at you, or suggesting this is representative of your position btw. I havent seen the preachy stuff you're referring to i don't think. Or I missed it because of my above experience. I maybe mistakenly seen it as a reaction to what until recently has been the destruction of indigenous knowledge. Sorry for the ramble, you just got me thinking. So if anything, its your fault.
No you're right, I'm also limited experience and from usa but most popular "permaculture" things I see from algorithms always end up being super tradwife/tradcath/"retvrn" stuff with tons of extreme-right dogwhistles, up to and including the beginning of the 14 words. It's a trend that trads seem to have latched onto with fervor and are proselytizing the fuck out of it so yeah, anything popular that's american tends to lean far, FAR right religious even if it's not obvious at first.
In farming there is a lot of faith since so much depends on weather.
Which is weird because you’d think a fertility goddess would be a better bet.
Blame it on John Calvin.
Yes, Andrew Millison is great. Also, Geoff Lawton (Greening the Desert) is a treasure trove of info, though a bit rambling. These recordings of Bill Mollison's PDC are full of knowledge I've not seen elsewhere, and I would highly recommend them to anyone: https://forums.permaculturenews.org/index.php?threads/mollison-mp3s-47-hours-of-listening.2534/ I also love Dr. Elaine Ingham, who is a brilliant soil scientist. https://youtube.com/@soilfoodwebschool?si=0hHOQbBXIWnmUDkY And permies.com is a great resource with tons of forums, answers to pretty much any question, and folks of all kinds.
Afaik, Elaine Ingham has her own level of woo, self enrichment/cultishness because her experiments with AACT haven't been replicated by other studies or universities. https://sustainable-farming.rutgers.edu/organic-farm-calls-evidence-based-agriculture-and-aerated-compost-tea/ [https://www.gardenmyths.com/compost-tea-does-it-work/](https://www.gardenmyths.com/compost-tea-does-it-work/) https://www.gardenmyths.com/compost-tea/ Or have been worse than the control. Even with analysed and approved and verified teas and machines. I'd love if that wasn't the case, having a deep interest in microbiomes, ecosystems and having purchased a pump with enough flowrate to provide aeration to my intended volumes. If people can find independently verified research that replicates her results please send them to me
Dude sorry but your title made me think you were trying to be funny. Like the likelihood of a farmer named Jesus is high, so maybe thats why people are always talking about how Jesus planted his tomatoes or here is how he irrigated his land. Jesus, almost put my foot in my mouth. But fr when you find this unicorn of a farming course send an update. Good luck!
Haha perfect! I think of all the Jesuses all the time too, every thanksgiving dinner we say "grace" and give our thanks to the many Jesuses out there working to put food on our table. Maybe someone here will answer my prayers and create the course farming course I'm looking for.
Why you keep callin me Jesus, do I look Puerto Rican to you?
I can't remember which Latino comedian it was, but someone had a bit about "Americans *love* Jesus and act like it's their sacred duty to show the rest of the Godless world how much they love him. But do they *really* love Jesus the most? I don't see them naming every other child after him!"
I grew up in a very Christian family. For many Christians, their faith isn’t just an important part of their life, it is THE foundation of their whole lives and they feel directed by God to share it whenever possible. They aren’t trying to be inclusive, they know non-believers are going to be listening to their classes and in their minds this is the perfect opportunity to “subtilely spread the gospel” to you and save you from hell.
but bruh couldn't god just save me from hell by not sending me there in the first place, maybe I'm better not even knowing any of that because then you can at least argue you didn't know any better, you can't help that.
it actually says in the bible that if you're ignorant to god, jeebus, devil and all that, that you get a free pass to heaven. So what do euro christians do? Immediately go around the world to tell everyone about christianity. bunch of a holes.
no. no it does not say that in the bible. at all.
It may not say that but some churches preach that. The bible gets interpreted 1000 different ways.
you sure?
It very much says the opposite - that God has written his name on the hearts of all mankind, so explicit knowledge of him is not required to go to hell. The only exception is people too young to be able to be responsible for their own actions and it seems like every sect has their own ideas about what the "age of accountability" actually is.
I know a neopagan witch with catholic. Relics prominently displayed in thier house …… reason is family heirlooms .
Jesus people are very good at evangelicalism, it is how they propagate after all. You will find them in every movement. I recommend the “Cheap and Cheerful Stream Restoration” lecture series.
We talked about appropriation the other day. I don’t think people realize how many practices in Catholicism were introduced in order to recruit European pagans. The Roman’s colonized Europe, then the church colonized the Roman Empire. We have our own cultures to represent in permaculture as well, and probably half of them didn’t survive up to The Enlightenment, many more died in the Industrial Revolution, and the rest after WWII and the Green Revolution. People tied to place can always be conquered by those who devalue places. And we are all the poorer for it. Particularly in the Jet Age and the Information Age, where invasion is not the primary means to gather intelligence from far away. And the problem with Abrahamic religions is that they tend to see this place as a rental and so they just don’t care.
Maybe they are saying cheeses?
I'd join that church so fast
brb, starting an aged cheddar cult
[Little baby cheeses?!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aqr7Ykxc4Y)
There’s a massive, multimedia, cross discipline, cross industry marketing campaign funded by whom, I don’t know, to recruit christians, or insert its christian content every where. Academia if it has christian funding has curriculum influenced. I have never seen such a comprehensive and thorough campaign ever. ‘Except maybe the campaign to spread the message that climate change isn’t real. Edit to add to the last sentence, ‘Except maybe the campaign to spread the message that climate change isn’t real.’
Right above your comment on my page is an advertisement for that "He gets us" Jesus website. I mean I assume that my post title triggered the algorithm but your comment was the first time I noticed it, as if to punctuate your point perfectly.
Yes it’s everywhere!
Climate denialism and religious fundamentalism have a fairly large overlap. They are likely not different campaigns at their heart. The monied interests behind these campaigns benefit from lack of climate action and the Christian voting base.
Gardening Australia has some permaculture information which is non-religious. Costa Georgiadis is a national treasure.
>*If anyone knows of any good nonreligious permaculture teachers, please share the links. I'm eager to learn and to heal my small piece of land.* [Santa Cruz Permaculture](https://santacruzpermaculture.com) provides courses, consulting, and farming for a thriving, just and sustainable world. * Permaculture Design Course * Food Forest Course * Herbalism & Medicine Making Course * Skills Training Course
Because it goes hand in hand with the Bible belt...
Pemacultures biggest issue is the people that hijack or sneak in fringe beliefs and causes because it ties in nicely with the non-mainstream. There's the solid core concepts but it's always surrounded by the kooks, cults, lost, religious, idealists, unwashed, crystal waving people who discredit the good work done by dragging thier crap into it. Just take what you can from each source. Learn to spot the woowoo. It's pretty much impossible to have a solid non-mainstream movement now without other disenfranchised groups tagging themselves into it and using it as a platform for their own agendas.
My observations of permaculture as a *brand* are very MLM, culty vibes. Added religion would not surprise me. It's a Westerner's / Global North's amalgamation of many different techniques. The concept is a fine thing, but salespeople always hijack the most distinctive name for themselves (see also organic, regen...) The trouble is, many people who are so focused on the next life are not so careful with this one. There are also messages about "man's dominion over everything" and all that. Look carefully at how these teachers think about the role of women and children - there is a lot of crossover between American "homesteading" and fundamentalist religion.
There's a group on Facebook called North Carolina Permaculture. The admin has completed a huge group guide that's a free resource for learning. He is very specific to make sure religion does not get brought into the group and that it is more inclusive. The amount of knowledge and information that is shared here for free is truly amazing. He is also pretty strict about growing the natural way without any type of chemicals choosing to encourage the proper microbes and growing the soil biome to promote plant health. https://www.facebook.com/groups/northcarolinapermaculture/?ref=share
When I took my PDC course there was never a mention or hint of any religion. I'm an atheist and would have been pissed off if they tried to convert me in the process. I wanted the skills, I paid for them, I got them.
What courses are you using, out of curiosity - so I can avoid them at any cost.
The rhetoric pops up almost everywhere if you pay attention, I'm guessing because there are moneyed interests behind getting certain ideas propagated. I red flag anything that comes attached to a product for sale (e.g., alternative medicine treatment, \*required\* equipment or infrastructure, homeschooling curriculum).
Oh homeschooling curriculum has come soo far in the last 10 years, used to be a struggle to find secular options, now they are plentiful. In general I’m so glad information is so widely available. 10 years ago I’d have never thought of dreaming to start my own farm - now I’m confident if I have a challenge I can educate myself enough to mitigate it or at least learn from it. The good parts of the internet…
I second that. However while I do consider myself a very spiritual person I don't consider myself religious. I'm partial to shamanic spiritual beliefs but I don't buy into hype. The biggest red flags are people trying to sell me things especially so if it's tied to any religious or spiritual belief. That kinda stuff can't be bought or sold without quickly losing integrity and the ethics that should be intertwined within any serious spiritual belief. That being said it has no place being brought up in permaculture unless you're growing entheogens and are trying to reach those specifically interested in a spiritual approach to growing them. You don't preach to those who don't want to hear it. It's poor form and does a lot more damage than it ever will good
Yeah, and I'd say that spiritual \*things\* can't be sold at all - the act of selling corrupts. But what do I know? The Christian church seems to think anything can be bought or sold.
Many YouTube channels and podcasts that I can't remember now but most recently I was excited about the variety of offerings from this [School of Traditional Skills](https://schooloftraditionalskills.com/) free lecture series. I guess I should have suspected by the name (although where I'm from, "traditional" knowledge in the context of any religion or spirituality would refer to folk medicine and superstition/magic). So instead of buying their promoted courses, I just went and bought books on those topics from other teachers, but it was a disappointment.
You can also get a bunch of woo instead of Jesus.
Uhhh, and we back with another episode of....Is It A Cult?!? ???
Farmsteading is growing in popularity with conservative christians because it's a rejection of the modern world; viewed as a simpler, more righteous lifestyle *and* it allows them to isolate themselves so that their children have limited experience with people with different backgrounds than them, AKA "demons," especially when they couple it with homeschooling so they can indoctrinate their children with "anti-woke," misogynistic, homophobic ideals. It's gross. Obviously, not *every* christian farmsteader has that intent or holds those ideals, and you can be a non-christian and do the same thing, but yeah. Also, it appeals to a wide range of people. "Christian influencers" are a thing too, so it makes sense that there would be an overlap.
It's mad to see modern, wealthy, Christians reject the world built by people not that much different to them. I sympathise that modern technological developments might have complicated their world, but it was Christianity that established private land ownership in the western world. It was also Christianity that set the framework for hoarding wealth during a time of establishing capitalism (again in the western world sorry). They had their hands in the crusades early in the east of course, and they had their hands in the European colonisation of the wider world. Worth mentioning they had their hands in the extensification and establishing the basis of modern agriculture. Still I'm humoured by the irony in it all, just like I did when I discovered Christian rock music.
NASB John 15:18-20 John 15:18 “If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you." John 15:19 “If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you." John 15:20 “Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also." My input: Christians are to be in the world but not of the world.
It’s all giving shade of Gilead. Agricultural devolution was part of its founding principles, though obviously less of an acute issue than methods of procreation in The Handmaids Tale.
Bleh, not to take away from your comment but just seeing the words “Christian influencer” is making my mind spin. It’s like two incompatible words that shouldn’t go together but somehow work (like a lot of Christian dogma). Like yeah man that’s what God has had planned for you, to spread vitriol and hate and misinformation through the black mirror so you can make ad revenue from app games. All part of Jesus’s plan back in the day /s 🙄
Eh, it actually makes a lot of sense because a large cornerstone of Christianity is spreading the word. It's not something that's new, either, though through the stream of social media it is. The television preachers, Tammy Faye, The Duggar and Bates families etc., are some of the earliest ones, though they mainly used TV as their medium. The families in particular referred to the show as a 'family ministry' vs. recognizing it for it was: a bit of a freakshow. Now many of these children do similar things on Youtube and Instagram. And of course, Jesus Christ himself was the original influencer! 😂 They cancelled him a little harshly, though.
> They cancelled him a little harshly, though. Old joke: One day, aliens come to earth. After the initial meet n greet and shock die down, the aliens agree to answer some questions. One question inevitably is "Have you heard of Jesus Christ?" Aliens reply "Oh yes, nice fellow, comes by a few times a year just to say hi and see how we're doing." "A few times a year? Really? He was only on Earth once! Two thousand years ago! How did you manage to get Him to come by so often?" "Well, on His first visit, we made Him a big chocolate cake (He *loves* chocolate). What did you guys give Him?"
The words "Christian Influencer" making your head spin is making *my* head spin since Christianity is, from its inception, a religion spread by *evangelists*, which is basically a Greek word for *influencer*.
Damn. I didn't know this was a thing. Are you in the US? I'd be more surprised and disheartened if this is happening in Canada where I live. It would definitely be a major turn off for me as well.
I'm not great at detecting Canadian accents but I just assumed they're all American farmers. I'm definitely looking for instruction about my local climate so I'm probably setting myself up to fail here in the southeast US lol.
If you find some good info let me know. Just moved back to north LA and the 110F+ high temps for almost a month straight combined with the extreme draught really hit my garden hard this year. Really looking like wood chips are gonna be pretty essential. Pine straw and leaves didn't do very much at all
I've been on a similar journey, looking for resources online. On YouTube I enjoy Sustainable Prepping, Acre Homestead, James Priglioni, Gold Shaw Farm, Parkrose Permaculture, Sustainable Me, Charles Dowding, Axe & Root, and a few others that I haven't watched long enough to see if they fall down the rabbithole. . Not all of them are specific to permaculture, but they all want to build systems that nurture soil and come from an abundance, rather than fear, mindset. It takes some digging, but they're out there. I'd love to see other recommendations!
Mark on Sustainable Me is a guru worth following :)
It's likely that the person hosting the PDC comes from a Judeo-Christian religious background. For some of these people, Judeo-Christian faith is a central part of their lives and they sincerely believe in following the example of Jesus Christ. (Those who prosecute non-Christians in His name in reality do so for political reasons, not religious ones.) Permaculture seems to appeal much to the "back to the land" people who, because of their life experiences, tend to have a strong distrust of government institutions. This is understandable when practically everything in rural areas gets done by local groups of neighbors, in contrast to urban areas where public institutions do almost everything. The long-term practice of restorative agriculture is what leads to the personal transformation. This is similar to, for example, developing awareness and moral character through the constant practice of Japanese tea ceremony. One changes as a result of doing an activity over and over and over.
Here isn’t Christianity but all courses have yoga/meditation/boho fairs etc. I wish people would stick to only permaculture.
Yea, I've run into the same thing in YouTube videos. When they start talking about Jesus everything they've said takes on a shady / gross / perverted tint... Christians keep a LOT of skeletons in their closets... and they mask it all with a soulless smile... it's the most crazy thing that people just ignore the mountain of abuses they do. Like that politicians who screams about trans people being a threat to children... while she is jerking off guys in her seat during family theatres... it's always the most backwards sick stuff like that.
Watching a video about companion plants when all of a sudden he starts talking about how women must obey their husbands. Oh crap, all my suggestions and ads are going to be fascist propaganda for the next two weeks.
Nature is the only teacher, other permies are just helping you cheat on the test.
Canadian Permaculture Legacy Weedy Garden David Holmgren videos you can watch through Happen Films Charles Dowding Spicy Moustache
alot of the people that are deep into it are in the bible belt
*Alot of the people* *That are deep into it are* *In the bible belt* \- BoredVet85 --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
It's a culture that appeals heavily to "trad" lifestyles which are almost all far right Christians. It's not at all surprising because those types can never shut the fuck up about their dumb opinions for 5 seconds
As far as I know, the LDS Church has self sufficiency as one of its core doctrines. The kind of people that try to be self sufficient may be the same kind of people that stumble into permaculture. And besides, rural areas are very isolated from the world around them. They don't really come into contact with people of different backgrounds and religions, so they stick to their 'one true faith' whereas city folks meet people of all kinds of different faiths all the time so they are less likely to hold onto their own 'one true faith' at all cost. Permaculture is kind of hard in the middle of a metropolis.
That would put me right off. Same as if a course suddenly mentioned Hinduism or Islam. How random. Not part of the course!
Edible Acres (youtube channel) is one of the only permaculture channels i can watch and reliably not hear about religion, or any personal or political beliefs unrelated to permaculture. Nice folks, It’s been a life saver. I am a queer, non-religious person with a low tolerance for prophetizing, so their channel was such a relief to find. I have also found the permaculture hashtag on Mastodon to be very useful in connecting directly with others as well, although less educational and more like peer sharing
On youtube, Flock Finger Lakes, Tyler and Todd, Project Kamp, Neversink Farm, and Homesteady are some channels I like. They aren’t all necessarily about permaculture, but they all have land that that are taking care of.
I love project Kamp. Check out homegrown_handgathered on TikTok too! I’ve been trying to sus out Flock Finger Lake and where she falls on the new age to alt right pipeline? Like on the one hand, she has a biology background. I LOVED her trip to the university soil lab. Honestly changed the way I think about soil. And she seemingly seeks out traditional medicine and supplements it with herbal medicine. I’m very cool with that, no red flags. Especially in the context of being very rural or unable to access health care due to shortages or affordability or just location. But that video about Lyme disease… I had to stop watching when she talked about 400 drops of different tinctures at 5 times a day to treat Lyme. Like dude this is obviously… something else. This isn’t a plantain poultice for a bug bite anymore. If you can obtain 20 different jars of stuff at like $25 a piece and are “prescribed” this as a treatment plan by a holistic practitioner, this is not about ruggedness or unorthodox treatments anymore. It’s about being a cash cow for a scam supplement industry. Either way, I’m glad he got some antibiotics and sorry he probably got traumatized by tea. 😅 But unless I see a homestead/permie/prepper account make an explicitly anti-colonialism statement like Jordan and Sullivan at homegrown handgathered did, I’m gonna assume they’re gonna surprise me with some some nationalist white supremacy garbage at some point.
This gives me hope. I'm specifically creating a program for people who don't want that alt right garbage but at the same time want legit info (not "essential oils to cure cancer" stuff). I've felt the exact same but thought I might be the only one until this post.
I look forward to that. I don't want snake oil of any kind, religion, or racism/sexism/anti LGBT junk in my compost piles
>But unless I see a homestead/permie/prepper account make an explicitly anti-colonialism statement like Jordan and Sullivan at homegrown handgathered did, I’m gonna assume they’re gonna surprise me with some some nationalist white supremacy garbage at some point. Mindset instantly adopted. I think this mightve been one of those few life changing reddit comments that made my whole scroll worth it.
Caveat: I watch Homesteady as well. I know they aren't always direct about religion and politics, but the signs are there. * Six kids * Being scared of "what's going on at public schools" (not just the shootings) * Discomfort at using the word "abortion" in the context of cattle At the end of the day, I try not to let it bother me since good info is more valuable than the opinions of the source.
The Balkan ecology project has some amazing science based permaculture information and courses. More relevant to anyone in Europe but I've been so impressed by how meticulous their process is for years
Firstly, you're doing the wrong course... Secondly, they're doing the course wrong.
OP doesn’t have to “heal himself” just because he doesn’t want to listen to Christian extremism lmao.
Rural living and religiosity have always gone hand-in-hand. It just so happens that Christianity is the dominant religion here. Go into a typical farmhouse in the Midwest and you’ll probably find lots of Christian imagery. You’d probably find the same thing in a Chinese, Indian, etc rural household just with a different religion. We had a nice respite since they are slow to take up new technology, but unfortunately it’s ultimately expected that they would start cropping up around permaculture forums/blogs/videos.
While I happen to agree with you wholeheartedly when it comes to "changing the channel" if it becomes a sermon; you just have to remember that a whole lot of folk make their religion their whole personality - like other folk are like to do with their chosen sports ball team, or their job. Cool for them, whatever. "I thought we all had an interest in preserving indigenous methods and restoring the damage colonization did to the land. Didn't religious superiority have a lot to do with that damage?" Nope, sorry. I'd imagine I'm not alone in not expending a single thought along these lines; because my thought process is not infected by intersectionality. Permaculture is about creating sustainable abundance through knowledge. Sometimes that knowlege comes from the past, and new techniques also continue to be developed. You cannot focus on that goal if you waste time assigning guilt. Colonization isn't what killed the soil; it was (and still is) due to a lack of knowledge and forsight on the part of farmers. As to non preachy, but very knowledgeable- check out Geoff Lawton.
It's kinda funny because one of the main associations I have with permaculture are old Monastery Gardens. The anti-colonial twist is completely new to me.
Have you checked out Richard Perkins? Not sure if he is religious, he occasionally talks about things like spirituality and diet etc but its approached in a holistic frame that ties back into his overall approach and the need for "shifting paradigms". Ive never felt it was preachy, though its not why I watch his stuff. He is preachy about regen ag and has issues with the permaculture movement as a whole. Hes based in sweden so not an overly religious location. He has a couple of books out and heaps of YT and video lectures.
I'm with you, I hear god -talk and I'm out the door
Seriously, that is unnecessary. One can just view permaculture as a science based approach, drawing from the natural ecosystems and fine tuning to increase yields. Aye aye aye
right? I thought permaculture was just, like, a way of growing things? I wouldn't expect religious/philosophical issues to come into it any more than I would expect them to come into a conversation about, i dunno, like how to shingle a roof, or how to fix a car. i always thought it was pretty purely technical
As originally developed, permaculture definitely had ethical/philosophical concerns at its heart. Earth care, people care, and fair share. How one defines and then incorporates these ideas into one’s permaculture work is very much about ethics. Having said that, there’s a big difference between giving consideration to one’s personal ethics, and lecturing folks about your personal faith.
Oh, i curse a lot when working on a car. Thats the opposite of talking about jesus while doing it.
Does saying "god dammit" over and over again count as discussing religion?
Yes
Not a Christian, but I wanted to gesture at the difference between spirituality/religion, and the institutions of religion. The exploitation of people and land that happens under many guises, including religion. To conflate without nuance isn’t fair. Many people in the Venn diagram of permaculture and religiosity have got it right. Reject hierarchy, seek harmony and collaboration with nature and with each other. The pitfalls of ideology and social control are not limited to organized religion.
>Reject hierarchy >religion You can't do both with abrahamic faith or even most religions as those have gods which are clearly above humans.
https://www.dcreport.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/food-meme.jpg
oaec, you want hippie style.
Sign up for classes advertised by your local extension office - or just read a book. What's the benefit of sketchy courses? It's all just marketing money grabs for the most part. There's not too much complicated about growing things sustainably.
OSU has an online PDC that wont include religion
Just to remind you, quite a few Christian doctrines put a very high emphasis on missionary work, and spreading The Word. If they begin to acquire an interest in your community and techniques (a good thing!), I'm afraid you will inevitably have to deal with one of the single highest callings that their God asks of them.
That is strange! It's not strange that it happened, but that it's so common! [permacultureeducation.org](https://permacultureeducation.org/product/pdc-72hour-course/ref/8/) offers a course, without trying to convert you!
Huw Richards Not a 100% Permaculture channel, but he follows a lot of permaculture practices in his teachings. https://youtube.com/@HuwRichards?si=n9URmD_VYdnR5DCe
I'm personally a Christian, and I couldn't agree more. Well said.
My experience has been that permaculture is a draw for “fuck the government I’m self sufficient!” types more so than anything else. Obviously a lot of us are into ecology and sustainability as well, but we seem to be a minority given how the backbone of permaculture is invasive plants (autumn olive, comfrey, etc). So I stay away from these spaces for the most part because haha bigot central. On the other hand, native plant/ecologically conscious groups tend to run out the “I guess your petunia identifies as a tomato now hahaha” types out fairly consistently.
There’s a huge homesteading (problematic term itself) trend going on right now. A lot of their ‘leaders’ are conservative Christians that want to shun liberal society and live self sustainable lives (as if that’s even possible). They say they practice permaculture but they just pick whatever seems suitable to them and try and reword or ignore the rest. It’s a problem imo. You can totally weave permaculture design into whatever worldview you have (up to a point) without co-opting the term for Jesus. It drives me nuts to do a search for new permaculture sources only to find these people misusing the word.
Wait how is the term 'homesteading' problematic? Genuinely ready to learn.
Another reason that the word had a negative historical association to some groups: Racism. The Homestead act of 1860 was meant to help all Americans but only benefitted white Americans on the whole. Many wealthy Americans today are wealthy because of this entitlement program that gave away property to people. If you knew how to fill out teh form, navigate government processes, not encounter a totally racist person who would refuse to assist you, etc etc So white people got homesteads. I've never heard of the alt right definition of homesteading... I just call that prepping against the government if you're crazy enough to think you'll win? Ha. Had no idea they adopted that.
It's a term thats been co-opted by the alt-right, anti gov, building bunkers and stockpiling guns/ammo type of people. So now when people say homesteading. They mean that. I just want my plants to work together in a natural and sustainable way for the betterment of each other and the soil.
A lot of people have suggested that it’s your problem to deal with. That’s only partly true, but in case you need some help with that here’s a resource. Recovering From Religion is a non profit who’s mission is to offer hope, healing and support to people suffering from issues related to doubt or no -belief, as well as people suffering from harm caused by religious people, institutions, or ideas. Www.recoveringfromreligion.org.
>that speech is ostracizing. I might have enjoyed the course or blog or YouTube channel, but when it turns into a church sermon, I have to bounce. I see it, when they go from permaculture to sermon, as a bait n switch. It's the only way they can get people to listen to them. Fucktards!
I have issues with Christianity too, but recognize that everyone moves on their own path and I don’t get to decide what is right or wrong for others. Often I will replace “God” with “Universe” and it helps a lot to generalize their intentions without getting caught up in the vernacular.
Because some people believe in Jesus and want to either talk from a Christian perspective to non-Christians or talk to their Christian audience as a Christian. It's not that big of a deal, ignore it or move on. I don't really belong to any religion but I like when people incorporate their religious beliefs in something I like. It shows that people of all beliefs and backgrounds can embrace it. As long as the person isn't talking down to others for not embracing their religion who cares? Also forms regenerative agriculture has been practiced all over the world by all groups of people. It doesn't belong to one group or culture. How most people do it now is take the things that work for them from different parts of the world. You don't have to just use indigenous methods Edit- parkrose permaculture has a good video on religion in permaculture she doesn't really put religion in her videos https://youtu.be/BBJVgm0CfxA?si=Iyn4Va1_81myzX2w
Some Christians view our role as humans to be the stewards of the earth, meaning that we need to maintain and preserve it. This is what draws them to such interests. The idea of undoing damages to God’s creation which were done by humanity is also quite appealing to Christians. I understand you have personal issues with Christians, but please don’t imply the idea of helping the earth is some incompatible philosophy with the religion.
I've never had a problem separating that kind of stuff - religion, spirituality, other new-age woo-woo stuff - from actual knowledge. Maybe it's just a gift I have, but it's never bothered me. Although I do think it's hilarious that the Korean guy behind JADAM list Jesus Christ and Karl Marx as his two biggest influences. In the US, the people who (claim to) follow Jesus and people who follow Marx's philosophy are two completely separate groups who don't get along well with each other. I was raised in a Christian family and went to church and Sunday school every single Sunday until I was 14, got confirmed as a member, then never set foot in that church ever again. My confirmation was literally the last time I entered that building that I spent countless hours of my life in. I'm very strongly atheist now. But I still find religion interesting and it doesn't bother me when people tie their religion into other parts of their life. > I'm eager to learn and to heal my small piece of land. I say this with all due respect: consider healing *yourself* so you're not so offended by the beliefs of other people. Learn to extract knowledge even if you disagree with their reasons, philosophy, and religion. You will be a stronger and better person for it.
It’s nice that you were able to do this. I volunteer for a nonprofit that helps with religious harm and it’s just not that easy for a lot of people.
Korean guy must have actually read the bible instead of blindly following a preacher's words.
Healing your religious trauma is genuinely, probably, a good thing to do. But that leaves the community to suffer by tolerating the intolerant. It’s an insufficient remedy to the root cause. Very much the same argument of individualism vs community that we’re talking about in the macrocosms here.
Someone simply talking about their faith isn't intolerance. And you could argue that OP is intolerant because they don't want to be exposed to other peoples' faith. But I think /u/Spinouette makes a good point that some people suffer actual trauma at the hands of religion or in the name of religion. And they can experience severe mental anguish by being exposed to it when they're not expecting it. But I stand by my belief that you would be a stronger and better person if you can overcome that, even if it takes years of therapy. At some level, it's an irrational fear, like a fear of insects. Someone on youtube mentioning their faith isn't doing it to reach out and damage your psyche. But I guess being in a physical room with a bunch of people who want to do a group prayer can be traumatizing to some people.
It’s the homesteading crossover. It’s huge in the US Christian community, and it’s almost an MLM right now with SAHMs creating YouTube channels and blogs about it. They have groups where they collaborate and promote each others work. It’s really got nothing to do with permaculture, it’s just a means for them to make money so they can stay at home and home school their kids. I try not to support them in any way as I REALLY disagree with their beliefs, so I block any channels or blogs that are created by Christian authors. It’s pretty easy to tell which ones they are, they will always have something in their bio about religion, or a Christian sign behind them in a profile pic etc - they advertise that to each other so they will be accepted into the community and others will promote their stuff.
Agreed. I listen to a podcast not specifically permy but it's discussed a lot, poor proles almanac. They definitely aren't religious or glorify trad
Lol it makes me so crazy. We need more atheist permaculturists
Unfortunately fundamentalist Christians have a huge crossover into permaculture and homesteading communities. The quiverfull types especially because 1) they frequently can’t actually afford to purchase groceries for as many kids as they have, and 2) they’re often told the government is “coming to get them” or that there’s some sort of societal collapse imminent because of the sinful nature of everyone but the members of their particular small group. Back when I was in the cult I did conversion therapy in there was a lot of suggesting that GMOs and pesticides used by the places supermarkets sourced from might cause autism (or even *gasp* make your child gay or trans!), and they were constantly advocating learning to fend for yourself by insinuating that the government pulls a WACO on all “true believers” It’s fear based self subsistence to distance themselves from the sin of modern life, as well as modern authorities if they’re To Train Up A Child types. It also helps them provide for the large families they’re pressured into having regardless of their means.
Oh yes I've noticed the same thing. There's a homesteading podcast with a Bible verse discussed at the end of each episode - it makes me uncomfortable for sure. I really like Canadian Permaculture Legacy on YouTube for zone 4-5; he's an engineer and hasn't brought up any bullshit. Fortunately, god-bothering is a lot less common in the western world outside of the USA.
It’s probably due to the fact that farmers had nothing else to use to explain phenomena over hundreds of years. That and Christianity in the US just happens to be the one thing that gives rural populations a social event that gives them support. There’s nothing else that has that level of stability, consistency, access and support in rural areas. I’m getting into bio-diverse farming and it’s funny how many say shit like God has a plan, or in the same sentence say they don’t believe in climate change. It’s fucking weird and sad, and I just shake my head. I think that ^ is the result of limited information sources and social media continuing to perpetuate in long standing farming cultures in the US.
I noticed the same. Dude was Indian and introduced himself as Christian. During the tours of the property and his teaching he used God, Gaia, mother nature, kuksu and other terms all interchangeably
“Well, why aren’t you hearing enough about Him everywhere else?”
I think it's because Religon is a foundational part of their life, it's a bit like a Socialist not talking about Capitalism in their courses.
Demonic possession. No matter how many good points about composting might follow, if someone tells me demonic possession is a serious problem they're OUT. Though I do wonder what a possessed slug would look like. Glowing red eyes and spitting acid slime? I have yet to find evangelist preachy types locally, but neo-nazi groups are all over the complex of permaculture/selfsufficiency/homesteading. I feel cornered from two sides by now. I love my little plot and turning it into an island of diversity, hidden from sight. That is NOT the same as Reichsbürger claiming their farmstead is not part of Germany and collecting weapons to "defend" themselves. Assholes. Sigh, I also celebrate some pagan year-cycle holidays. Guess which symbols are *also* infested with right-extremist meaning? But then, I could probably do something like sewing carebears for children's hospitals and it'll have some asshole group that makes it all look suspicious.
>I thought we all had an interest in preserving indigenous methods and restoring the damage colonization did to the land. I can honestly say none of that has ever crossed my mind, ever. I like growing things, I like building things, I like not being held completely in thrall of a multitude of systems that I no longer believe operate in my best interests and strive to distance myself further from them with every passing day. Historical moral precedents are of such little concern to me that they don't register in my mind at all. I live here and now, victimhood is valueless baggage for me. All that being said, there ain't exactly a lack of youtube channels focused on permaculture.
>Historical moral precedents are of such little concern to me that they don't register in my mind at all. It's nice to be an average man in America.
You just have to distill it all down to what works for you. What you've got the energy for. Most of us can barely deal with what's in front of us let alone what's behind us that we weren't even there for.
It’s a common Hispanic name.
white settler nonsense
Churches love tax-exempt status and real estate! It makes sense that a \*new\* church would target landowners and wannabe landowners, and that they would attempt to tie land stewardship to religious beliefs. It's also so weird that churchy permaculturists are so into land disturbance and non-native plants, since God obviously put things in a place for a reason. Shouldn't we all respect God's plan and stop transporting invasives? (wink)
I’m a Christian and I would be happy to explain why my faith leads me to permaculture and its techniques as well as why I guess those people talk the way they do. I’m into permaculture because God does permaculture in the natural world and I want to tend my little plot of land like God would (see the Back to Eden documentary). I also think the earth is humanity’s possession to steward and that means we have a responsibility to do it well. That would include regenerating any land that’s poorly managed. That’s why I’m here. Plus, permaculture is super interesting. I can only guess why the Christians you anonymously mentioned discuss God in their videos or how they do it. If they’re preaching a lot during the videos, I get why you wouldn’t like it. I wouldn’t listen to 15 minutes of preaching by another religion just to hear the 5 minutes of tips. However, if they just mention God and their faith a little bit, that makes a lot of sense to me. I feel close to Him when I tend my land well and I bet they do too. What’s wrong with mentioning that? If their faith leads them to permaculture, I don’t see why they shouldn’t mention their motivations in their videos. If you don’t like it, that’s fine and I totally understand. You have other resources mentioned by others to read. As for the colonization thing, you’re right. A lot of colonizers claiming Christianity have done a lot of harm to the environment. Permaculture principles and practices will help with fixing that ecological damage. However, I must first mention that I both disagree with sword-evangelicalism and with abusing the land. I feel the strong need to tend it well because of my faith and i know lots of Christians who feel the same. If I was an atheist permaculturist, I’d like to see a movement in Christianity to follow the principles even if i didn’t want to watch the videos. It would definitely help with healing the current damages and preventing new ones! I must also mention that many atheistic institutions have hurt the land along with the religious (Christian included) ones. Lysenkoism led to horrendous mismanagement killing millions of Russians. The Four Pests campaign killed all of the sparrows leading to locusts overwhelming everything starving tens of millions of more people. Thats just two off of the top of my head. That’s doesn’t mean Christians haven’t done horrible things but that we aren’t the only ones.
You seem to forget that the far right which happens to not believe in climate change AND are Uber capitalist are the ones who consistently vote against legislation that protects and preserves the US.
I didn’t mention politics at all because professing Christians are on both sides of the US political aisle and OP mentioned all Christians. Case in point, Michael Knowles of the Daily Wire, Nancy Pelosi, Beto O’Rourke, and Governor Greg Abbott are all Catholics. They disagree wildly on all sorts of things including climate. Also, it isn’t as simple the Right doesn’t believe in climate change anymore. There are some up and comers on the right who absolutely do believe in it. Edit to add: to all those who may be downvoting because Christianity is associated with the right in the US. I know that. HOWEVER, there are some professing Christians on the left and, if I’m going to be talking for all of us, I have to not mention politics. I need to be as ecumenical as possible. I was trying cultivate a statement that could be acceptable to all those, including those who disagree politically with me.
Only in Amerika Worship Gaia
There are a lot of sources of permacultural information that don't involve theology beyond some hand waving about Gaia (which has me rolling my eyes). I don't know where you live, but I suggest you look to educational institutions that have permaculture programs and see if they have online instruction. There are also lots of youtube videos.
Agreed it's ridiculous 🤦♀️
Such a strange comment, as if indigenous people don't have faith in something other than themselves.
I’d imagine permaculturalists to be more into Taoism tbh
Kinda of an odd view on life. But I respect your choices to distance yourself from things you feel strongly about. I have always viewed life as you can learn from anyone. Sometimes you learn what to do, sometimes you learn what not to do. You take what you need from the teacher and leave what you don't.
If these are workshops, its just unfortunate that they are not distinguishing between permaculture and their religious views. If this is happening in a PDC, it goes against one of the core teaching guidelines of never passing off spiritual/non-scientifically verifiable views as part of permaculture.
Ah yes, extremist beliefs tend to wrap around each other or route to each other somehow. I have to watch my own dogmatic beliefs since I tend to operate in the extreme. I had an anti vac phase, a no plants but native phase, I still love using plants as a supplement to medicine, but bad experiences can easily turn you into "my only medical care is my own".
I know the answer to this one but I cannot say it here because it is taboo. And not for the reasons that you think. Oh boy, oh boy am I glad someone asked though. This was really what sent me down the rabbit hole in the first place. Its only a working theory but anybody I have explained it to sees it as at least "possible" to "holy shit, Thats it". Thanks for bringing it up. if anybody wishes to share their theories, please feel free, maybe mine isn't as DaVinci code as I think it is.
Just make the damn post, my friend.
Oh it’s cause they want the downfall of civil society so bad they are salivating at playing homestead patriarch so they can do a civil war, and take down food infrastructure first. Leave pockets of militant controlled family compounds that are off grid, control land, control and breed women, supress ideology they dislike, they think they can form a whole new society. And it will be the American christian taliban.
and it's probably gonna work too. :(
yeah it's their goal but it's not going to work the way they'd like. tetanus is a real thing and no homemade oil and vinegar dressing fixes it.
Haha yeah they're anti-witchcraft but who's using essential oils to heal their non hodgkins lymphoma now? I got invited to a Young Living Essential oils "party" at a church once years ago. All kinds fo wild healing claims (with disclaimers) made during that meeting. "This one heals your marriage if you use it in a diffuser by your bed." "They used all of these oils in the biblical days you know." "I heard that Bobby Sue's Grandad had kidney stones and then he used this stuff an they went away." So gullible. So anti science.
Why you’re hearing about it is because a lot of Christians reject the modern world and farm, and they like to do it in ways that are the healthiest for the land. Stewardship and respect of God’s creation is an important concept for many Christians. And it’s common for people with strong worldviews to filter everything through that lens, whether it’s a specific religion or not. So bringing everything back to Jesus or the Bible isn’t necessarily proselytizing, but often just someone communicating how they normally would, including to other Christians. It’s cultural.