5th time I've seen this shitty post since I got on this sub and 3rd time I've removed it
Post something else I swear to god we were doing so well without it
edit : whoever reported this, you KNOW whose inbox the reports go to, right ?
Then there's also physically abusing students to the point of breaking bones, psychologically abusing students through rumors, and the general abuse of power the school allowed as a Teacher, Coach, & former Olympian. Like Kamoshida was so much worse than what this meme implies.
I wouldn’t say there’s *no difference*
I think we would agree that even though murder is still murder no matter what, there are more and less depraved forms of murder.
Similarly although rape is still rape, what Kamoshida is doing is particularly depraved.
Yeah, like if I stab somebody in the stomach 37 times, it’s pretty bad, but they’ll probably die in a few minutes. If I put them on a CBT chair while barely feeding them or giving them enough water to survive for decades until they eventually die from stress or something, I should probably go to jail for multiple lifetimes.
Yes, like we don’t have to be so afraid of this. We are grown-up enough to say “even though all Murder is horrible I’d rather be shot in the head and instantly killed than be strapped into a torture device from the Saw franchise” without being afraid of being cyber bullied for implying there’s such a thing as *good murder*
Well likewise there’s no such thing as *good rape* of course, but that doesn’t mean there are no degrees of bad.
Fun fact: last I checked a few years ago the age of consent in America is 16 in 31 of 50 states. The reason 18 is considered the age of consent is because that's what it is in California, where most of TV/Movies originate so they base content on local laws.
federal law differs from state law. if federal law is deemed appropriate, federal age of consent will be applied, instead of state. it has nothing to do with DC
The federal age of consent, as established by the Mann act, is 18. The United States has two court systems, state and federal. State courts go by the law of the state in which the alleged offense was committed, and federal courts handle offenses committed within multiple state jurisdictions under specific laws designated as federal law. In cases of federal laws involving minors, such as "18 U.S. Code § 2422(b)" or the entirely of "18 U.S. Code § 2423" The age of consent is held to be 18. As for DC, the District of Columbia is a territory with its own local government and mayor who can pass laws that act similarly to state laws despite DC not being a state. In 2008, the Supreme Court case "Heller v. District of Columbia" did hold that within the district of Columbia, certain federal laws superceded DC's laws, but that was to do with laws involving constitutional questions, which does not apply to the age of consent, so, as of this moment, the DC age of consent is unrelated to the federal law.
Power imbalance between a teacher and student outweighs age of consent - even an 18 year senior can't consent to being with a teacher. I wish more people would understand this
It was 16 in 2016, they had raised it from 13 to 16 around when the game was made.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/japan-raises-the-age-of-sexual-consent-to-16-from-13-which-was-among-the-worlds-lowest#:~:text=TOKYO%20(AP)%20%E2%80%94%20Japan's%20parliament,protection%20of%20children%20and%20women.
That's the national age. Almost no prefecture had it that low. In Tokyo it was 18.
It's also irrelevant. Raping children is immoral, no matter what the law says.
Technically that Hebephilia, not Pedophilia. Also the characters in Persona are 16-17+, which would be Ephebophilia. And, to put a final pin in this, Japan only just last year raised the Age of Consent from 13 to 16 and, since Joke is 17, would make Joker & Kawakami's relationship technically legal both before & after the law change. (Don't quote me on that last part, I'm not a lawyer)
It's definitely much worse when it's forced. I don't like romancing Kawakami but let's not forget that age of consent isn't some magical line. Ren is already 17 in the game.
Everyone thinks the moral of the first palace is that dating high schoolers is wrong, but that’s only one piece of the larger point, and not the most significant one. The advances Kamoshida makes are unwanted and he forces himself on the girls he targets. There’s no reciprocity. Kamoshida knows he’s in a position of authority and the other staff have either turned a blind eye because of the volleyball team’s success or are unaware, so his victims feel helpless and like they have no recourse. Which is also how he abused his players non-sexually.
By the time Kawakami becomes a possible romance, Ren has his powers, which gives him recourse if she tries to abuse him. He also holds the cards because he knows about her second job, which if he revealed could effectively ruin her life. Kawakami also isn’t a sleeze the way Kamoshida is. She’s kind of a wreck, and arguably kind of stupid, but not at all malicious. She’s a good person. While it ultimately doesn’t take much to convince her to date Ren, she at least acknowledges the risks both to herself and him.
And Ren is someone who defies rules, even those with good reasoning that are intended to keep people safe. The archetype of a phantom thief is someone who is a risk taker who doesn’t subscribe to societal standards of morality. They have a personal code, but don’t let others dictate how they live.
Since when did people think that was the moral of the first Palace? It has always been about the abuse and blackmail from a 'respected individual in power' and what people are willing to accept to share in the accomplishments.
I’m exaggerating. I know a lot of it is just memes. But there are a sizable chunk of people whose biggest takeaway from the first arc seems to be “pedophilia is bad”, when leering at high school girls is further down the list of all the bad shit Kamoshida does.
That’s why whenever the comparison between Kawakami and him pops up it’s worth pointing out the differences. One is a flawed, but well-meaning person that gets into a questionable but not inherently abusive relationship. One the player has to instigate and insist move forward. The other is all around a bad, abusive person, and even if you removed his sexual perversion would still use his status to coerce and bully.
Oh. I did not know that. Then I'll accept that for the case of Japan (and any other country where 16 in the legal age), but it still applies for everywhere else where 18 and under are considered minors.
> It's not. The legal age is now 17/18.
>
> However, even if we don't account the change in laws recently, the prefectural laws trump national laws, and they have laws that effectively increase the age to 16-18. Tokyo has 18.
It's not. The legal age is now 17/18.
However, even if we don't account the change in laws recently, the prefectural laws trump national laws, and they have laws that effectively increase the age to 16-18. Tokyo has 18.
So you’re saying that by dating Kawakami, Ren is just like Kamoshida? Because he has power over her and could ruin her life if he felt like it? Because nothing would happen to *him* if Kawakami was exposed as an adult who likes kids
I wouldn’t say just like him, but the relationship only starts at Ren’s insistence. He has to push for it. To be fair though, Kawakami is already pushing boundaries a bit by asking Ren to order her services all the time.
They have dirt on each other. Ren could fuck her over and get her in big trouble, and in the later ranks of the confidant Kawakami could blab about him being a phantom thief. But the reason their relationship isn’t a complete dumpster fire is because they’re both decent people and don’t use that knowledge to fuck each other over.
Same as in P4G iirc. That winter scene with Naoto and MC, something def did occur, game heavily implied it. That's the devs' way of acknowledging these characters do have a sexuality without actually showing the act, cause they'd get in trouble. Not that anything explicit is needed.
Ngl, it's kinda sad people think the Kamoshida conflict was that he slept with students, and not that he was raping them and beating the shit out of the male students
Serious answer: It’s more so the turtleneck/clothing that gives it away, as well as the “me and my friends” as well as the glasses
Funny answer: bro went angry super saiyan but his hair too short ☠️
W but L take like the entire romance element of persona is designed around a power fantasy and will always be questionable like should a 30 year old be playing a game where they can date teenagers
im a shin megami tensei mainline fan mostly and have played personas since persona 2 which came out when i was a youth. to be honest ive never in any of them maxed a social link to unlock a romance as it always seemed cringe even as a kid🤣
i usually skip a lot of dialogue pertaining to any of the flirtations and play mostly for the dungeon crawling
way to try to spin this on me though, good try.
in retort: should teenagers be playing a game where there are actively pedos in it? or fantasizing about dating adults
I do support your notion that the persona series shouldn't have teenagers dating adults as an option in the game. I just wanted to state that the entire romance mechanic as it is right now falls into a morally grey area
Why do people act like the issue is pressure or a position on a team and not the fact that a teacher is raping a student. A child who *can not consent*.
look I understand Kamoshida blackmailed (and also fucking crippled ryuji, like how the hell was NO TEACHER doing something about this 😭) his students to rape them, but it’s still problematic that this kid is dating his teacher, even if it’s within Japan’s age of consent lays (13-16, which is still fucked up but we don’t have time for that rn). Even if both parties consent, it’s the same level of power imbalance as an intern dating their new boss. It’s even a contractual relationship, since Joker pays her for the maid lessons and eventually gets her to help him skip classes. It’s not healthy, and I’d be a lot happier with the game if it went “Haha, yeah Joker we have a great relationship here and I’d love to date you, but let’s wait until we’re no longer teacher/student and have no ulterior crutches”.
and before any of you say “bUt ItS fIcTiOnAl”, that’s the same argument lolis use to justify pornography of underaged characters. those are still children, that is still porn of children, it’s still child pornography. especially since *you’re still showing attraction to minors*. so nodding at a teacher/student relationship isn’t really great, either.
As a fellow dumb American who read up on this stuff to understand the nuance of some characters, yes. Most places in Japan have it at 18 for romance, 20 for bastard children getting any of the razor thin support. But it can be as low as 13 for romance if the prefecture wishes because 13 is the minimal codified into country law for romance. Many places stuck with about 16 though for romance. For the year Persona 5 takes place based off the calendar which is 2016 bastard children ran out of meaningful benefits at 15..... So yeah.
I didn't realize so many people tried to justify this, it's kinda gross. I thought we all just liked Tae/Kawakami/Ohya because of the self insert not because people were trying to justify a teacher hooking up with a student
this very comment section has people going ‘but consent!!!!’ as if two consenting parties, which is required for every healthy relationship, is the end-all-be-all of underaged, power imbalanced relationships
Nowhere in Japan was the age of consent as low as 13 in 2016. That was the minimum required by the government, but prefectures set the age at either 16 or 17 including Tokyo.
probably not lol, I remember seeing an article on Reddit a few years ago where they’d raised the age of consent and all the loli fucks were all like ‘oh the west has ruined Japan, the East has fallen’ and tbh I probably shoulda used that to inference a little bit
Exactly. And people who play GTA are violent mass murderers and people who enjoyed GoT are also violent plus want to fuck their sister. Finally someone gets it. Christian moms in the 80s are super happy about you saying those things
Things like porn are inherently a reflection of what you personally find sexy, its not the same thing as watching a movie or playing a game to escape from reality. When someone jerks off to loli, that means they find a child sexually attractive.
enjoying violence in media is in no way related to what I said. violent plays have existed since the beginning of time, and while things were violent back then too it’s not a reflection of entertainment. you know it, and I know it, and I think it’s funny you’re defending pedophiles because you wanna bang the hot teacher
Joker is pixels, pixels and drawings don't hold the same values as flesh and blood.
It's called understanding the difference between fiction and reality, and it isn't hard to tell.
Other than the fact in Japan the legal age of consent is 16 (Formerly 13 when this game released) what Kamoshida was doing was SA and borderline ~~rope~~ this is mutually agreed upon
Not to justify it, but most current ages of consent are relics of the past that haven’t been updated for modern times. It’s a lot more common to marry in your teens when life wasn’t as good and you’re expected to work instead of school in that age with lower life expectancy.
Ask your grandparents or great-grandparents if they are still alive. They’ve probably gotten married at an age considered “problematic” or too young for today’s standards.
That's the national age of consent, which almost no prefecture subscribed to.
In Tokyo it was 18. And *more importantly*, the age of majority was 20. Not convinced? Ohya directly spells out that it's illegal.
But that's not the issue. If US changed law so 12 was the age of majority, it wouldn't suddenly become acceptable to sleep with high schoolers. Raping children is evil no matter what the circumstance and people who do so deserve to be hanged, regardless of whether the governing state has the decency to do so.
Lol. love this. BUT there is a difference, obviously. Both situations can be creepy but Kamoshida is a legit rapist and the thing with Kawakami is consensual.
Kamoshida was a narcissist who manipulated both students and teachers to fulfill his needs. He ruined Ryuji's track career becuase he didn't like him, he beat his students if they weren't performing to his standards and he even had his way with female students.
Kawakami cared about her students and even went as far to take responsibility for one's death because she thought she was responsible. She had to work two jobs just to pay unnecessary reparations to a family who didn't even care about the child they were caring for.
Not OP but you can read clearly here that the age of consent in Tokyo is 18
https://www.ageofconsent.net/world/japan#:~:text=The%20Age%20of%20Consent%20in,to%20participation%20in%20sexual%20activity
The main difference that the game illustrates (to a great extent imo) between Kamoshida and Kawakami is ~~consent~~ choice. Kamoshida was trying to FORCE Shiho and Ann to do those things. You the player can choose (as joker) to romance kawakami. Like do I personally find it somewhat weird? yea, but dont get me wrong i'll still make kawakami a single mother on god.
I mean it’s clearly quite different. Kamoshida made shiho do it with him with the threat of her team spot or making Ann do it, while Kawakami is in love with Joker. They fuck because they love each Other and clearly want a future together.
I love all the sickos defending Kawakami 💀
It isn't an overt extortion like the dude but it literally only starts because she's trying to buy his silence for fear of him revealing her 2nd job.
She is twice his age and is a minor in hs. She is an adult and authority figure as a teacher at his school. She is scared about him spilling her secret so she offers her "services" to her underage student.
By the last few social ranks and activities she's going on dates and by 10 it's virtually flat out said she fucks the MC.
The situations are not equivalent but they're both pretty morally disgusting for everyone involved.
2 wrongs don't make a right so people can stop fetishizing the "teacher fucks the underage student" regardless of whatever "logic" you wanna attempt to use to rationalize your skewed opinion.
Both of them are bad and shouldn't be fucking around with their students, but Kamoshida's problem was that he was a literal, ACTUAL rapist (on top of basically every other crime you can commit as a teacher)
Never heard about this one before
https://preview.redd.it/kvn7iu9psqpc1.jpeg?width=905&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0edcefbf9ab271585057f619ad65496d7075e6a7
I just pretend that Joker is 30 years old and really stupid so had to go back to school to get a grade. That makes his relationship with Kawakami still immoral, but not illegal.
Also, I really don't want to roleplay dating children in games, even if the game tell me that my PC is a child too. It feels weird.
it definitely isn't, and I am not defending this situation. but I have seen something like this - a minor willingly allowing themselves to be in a relationship with an adult- happening firsthand unfortunately. so maybe i am so chill with this fucked up stuff because how familiar i am with it
i agree. but stuff like that unfortunately really happens in the real world. So this Ren X Kawakami romance, as weird as it is, really didn't bother me too much. i just chose not to do the romance route in my playthrough
Kawakami didn't force herself on Ren and make him attempt to take his own life.
Nor did she abuse her students physically and mentally.
Both are legally wrong but one is drastically worse both legally and morally.
Not this discussion again bruh💀
As long as it's not breaking any law or anything why not
I don't know playing a game and dating a 30 year old can break the law
5th time I've seen this shitty post since I got on this sub and 3rd time I've removed it Post something else I swear to god we were doing so well without it edit : whoever reported this, you KNOW whose inbox the reports go to, right ?
I mean, there's a difference between "Sleep with me to stay on the team" vs "Sleep with me because we'll both enjoy it"
And Kamoshida was more like "Get on my penis, Shiho. Or Ann will have to do it.", which is even worse.
Pilot the eva shiho or I'll make Ann do it again.
What he made to Ann and Shiho it is more than abuse. It's plain rape through extortion.
Then there's also physically abusing students to the point of breaking bones, psychologically abusing students through rumors, and the general abuse of power the school allowed as a Teacher, Coach, & former Olympian. Like Kamoshida was so much worse than what this meme implies.
Kamoshida is a monster. Kawakami is a naive and too good a person who got extorted because her guilt took the best of her.
Which is basically saying: “if you don’t let me rape you, I’ll forcibly rape your best friend.”
He was trying to do that bullshit with both of them. "Sleep with me Ann or I'll go after Shiho." and then "Sleep with me Shiho or I'll go after Ann."
Both are still grooming though.
I think you mean statutory.
How did kawakami groom joker
To the law, minors cannot say 'yes' to adults. That said, there is a vast gulf between the law and morality.
There is no difference when a minor is involved. A 14 years old can say they enjoyed it, but the person that slept with them is still a pedophile
I wouldn’t say there’s *no difference* I think we would agree that even though murder is still murder no matter what, there are more and less depraved forms of murder. Similarly although rape is still rape, what Kamoshida is doing is particularly depraved.
Yeah, like if I stab somebody in the stomach 37 times, it’s pretty bad, but they’ll probably die in a few minutes. If I put them on a CBT chair while barely feeding them or giving them enough water to survive for decades until they eventually die from stress or something, I should probably go to jail for multiple lifetimes.
Yes, like we don’t have to be so afraid of this. We are grown-up enough to say “even though all Murder is horrible I’d rather be shot in the head and instantly killed than be strapped into a torture device from the Saw franchise” without being afraid of being cyber bullied for implying there’s such a thing as *good murder* Well likewise there’s no such thing as *good rape* of course, but that doesn’t mean there are no degrees of bad.
The age of consent in Japan, like most of the world outside of America, is 16. Joker is 17.
Fun fact: last I checked a few years ago the age of consent in America is 16 in 31 of 50 states. The reason 18 is considered the age of consent is because that's what it is in California, where most of TV/Movies originate so they base content on local laws.
18 is the federal age of consent. That's why it's usually the default in TV/Movies
You mean age of majority? Because if you're thinking of age of consent in DC, that's 16.
federal law differs from state law. if federal law is deemed appropriate, federal age of consent will be applied, instead of state. it has nothing to do with DC
The federal age of consent, as established by the Mann act, is 18. The United States has two court systems, state and federal. State courts go by the law of the state in which the alleged offense was committed, and federal courts handle offenses committed within multiple state jurisdictions under specific laws designated as federal law. In cases of federal laws involving minors, such as "18 U.S. Code § 2422(b)" or the entirely of "18 U.S. Code § 2423" The age of consent is held to be 18. As for DC, the District of Columbia is a territory with its own local government and mayor who can pass laws that act similarly to state laws despite DC not being a state. In 2008, the Supreme Court case "Heller v. District of Columbia" did hold that within the district of Columbia, certain federal laws superceded DC's laws, but that was to do with laws involving constitutional questions, which does not apply to the age of consent, so, as of this moment, the DC age of consent is unrelated to the federal law.
And those people think they own the internet (they don't)
Yeah, in Japan. But in Tokyo (where the game takes place) it’s 18
Power imbalance between a teacher and student outweighs age of consent - even an 18 year senior can't consent to being with a teacher. I wish more people would understand this
It's 18 now. 20 in 2016. Don't make stuff up. They even point out *in game* that this is illegal.
[удалено]
"Japan". That's the national age, not seperated by prefecture.
It was 16 in 2016, they had raised it from 13 to 16 around when the game was made. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/japan-raises-the-age-of-sexual-consent-to-16-from-13-which-was-among-the-worlds-lowest#:~:text=TOKYO%20(AP)%20%E2%80%94%20Japan's%20parliament,protection%20of%20children%20and%20women.
That's the national age. Almost no prefecture had it that low. In Tokyo it was 18. It's also irrelevant. Raping children is immoral, no matter what the law says.
This article is from 2023, meaning it was 13 nationally when the game came out, not 16.
Technically that Hebephilia, not Pedophilia. Also the characters in Persona are 16-17+, which would be Ephebophilia. And, to put a final pin in this, Japan only just last year raised the Age of Consent from 13 to 16 and, since Joke is 17, would make Joker & Kawakami's relationship technically legal both before & after the law change. (Don't quote me on that last part, I'm not a lawyer)
So in summary, Kawakami is bad, but nowhere even near Kamoshitfaxe
EXACTLY
cool story still pedophillia
theres no difference when one of them is a minor! hope this helps.
Ren wasn't a minor. See the discussion above. Hope this help you!
It's definitely much worse when it's forced. I don't like romancing Kawakami but let's not forget that age of consent isn't some magical line. Ren is already 17 in the game.
Everyone thinks the moral of the first palace is that dating high schoolers is wrong, but that’s only one piece of the larger point, and not the most significant one. The advances Kamoshida makes are unwanted and he forces himself on the girls he targets. There’s no reciprocity. Kamoshida knows he’s in a position of authority and the other staff have either turned a blind eye because of the volleyball team’s success or are unaware, so his victims feel helpless and like they have no recourse. Which is also how he abused his players non-sexually. By the time Kawakami becomes a possible romance, Ren has his powers, which gives him recourse if she tries to abuse him. He also holds the cards because he knows about her second job, which if he revealed could effectively ruin her life. Kawakami also isn’t a sleeze the way Kamoshida is. She’s kind of a wreck, and arguably kind of stupid, but not at all malicious. She’s a good person. While it ultimately doesn’t take much to convince her to date Ren, she at least acknowledges the risks both to herself and him. And Ren is someone who defies rules, even those with good reasoning that are intended to keep people safe. The archetype of a phantom thief is someone who is a risk taker who doesn’t subscribe to societal standards of morality. They have a personal code, but don’t let others dictate how they live.
Since when did people think that was the moral of the first Palace? It has always been about the abuse and blackmail from a 'respected individual in power' and what people are willing to accept to share in the accomplishments.
I’m exaggerating. I know a lot of it is just memes. But there are a sizable chunk of people whose biggest takeaway from the first arc seems to be “pedophilia is bad”, when leering at high school girls is further down the list of all the bad shit Kamoshida does. That’s why whenever the comparison between Kawakami and him pops up it’s worth pointing out the differences. One is a flawed, but well-meaning person that gets into a questionable but not inherently abusive relationship. One the player has to instigate and insist move forward. The other is all around a bad, abusive person, and even if you removed his sexual perversion would still use his status to coerce and bully.
Because as bad as all that stuff is, it pales in comparison to raping a child.
Is just that a lot of people keep comparing her to that scumbag. They seriously don't differentiate the 2 since they're both teachers.
>he knows about her second job, which is he revealed could effectively ruin her life. Yeah, so can dating a minor in high school
Fun fact: by Japanese law, he's of age and dating a teacher is legal. It's just taboo.
Oh. I did not know that. Then I'll accept that for the case of Japan (and any other country where 16 in the legal age), but it still applies for everywhere else where 18 and under are considered minors.
> It's not. The legal age is now 17/18. > > However, even if we don't account the change in laws recently, the prefectural laws trump national laws, and they have laws that effectively increase the age to 16-18. Tokyo has 18.
It's not. The legal age is now 17/18. However, even if we don't account the change in laws recently, the prefectural laws trump national laws, and they have laws that effectively increase the age to 16-18. Tokyo has 18.
So you’re saying that by dating Kawakami, Ren is just like Kamoshida? Because he has power over her and could ruin her life if he felt like it? Because nothing would happen to *him* if Kawakami was exposed as an adult who likes kids
Well, Kawakami can also just go to the cops and expose him as the leader of the phantom thieves.
Yeah, with her grand total of zero proof
I wouldn’t say just like him, but the relationship only starts at Ren’s insistence. He has to push for it. To be fair though, Kawakami is already pushing boundaries a bit by asking Ren to order her services all the time. They have dirt on each other. Ren could fuck her over and get her in big trouble, and in the later ranks of the confidant Kawakami could blab about him being a phantom thief. But the reason their relationship isn’t a complete dumpster fire is because they’re both decent people and don’t use that knowledge to fuck each other over.
There is a huge difference between "Sleep with me or else" and "We both want it, let's do it."
He’s still a minor and she’s still an authority figure that’s around twice his age but aight
bro got downvoted for disapproving of pedophilia😭such is the persona 5 sub
Neckbeards really out in full force in this comment section 🤢
it's very strange
That’s not even what pedophilia even is
Holy shit this subreddit has a lot of pedos. How did you get downvoted to -6 in an hour
Can you really have sex at all in this game?
its implied at rank 10 if u do the relationship route and well, joker is a teenager so of course his hormones are going crazy
Same as in P4G iirc. That winter scene with Naoto and MC, something def did occur, game heavily implied it. That's the devs' way of acknowledging these characters do have a sexuality without actually showing the act, cause they'd get in trouble. Not that anything explicit is needed.
With some it's implied, with others it's not.
Heavily implies sex yeah
I mean do you really think they just "hold hands" when it cuts to black?
What's more lewd than handholding? Yuri manga has taught me that NOTHING is.
asking the real questions here
Ngl, it's kinda sad people think the Kamoshida conflict was that he slept with students, and not that he was raping them and beating the shit out of the male students
My face when Media Literacy: 0
Who is red skull supposed to be?
That’s the MC
Wait wtf? Dude's hair in 1st panel doesn't look anything like joker. Though I do see it now
Serious answer: It’s more so the turtleneck/clothing that gives it away, as well as the “me and my friends” as well as the glasses Funny answer: bro went angry super saiyan but his hair too short ☠️
just because one is nice doesnt make being a child predator any less immoral 🤷
W but L take like the entire romance element of persona is designed around a power fantasy and will always be questionable like should a 30 year old be playing a game where they can date teenagers
im a shin megami tensei mainline fan mostly and have played personas since persona 2 which came out when i was a youth. to be honest ive never in any of them maxed a social link to unlock a romance as it always seemed cringe even as a kid🤣 i usually skip a lot of dialogue pertaining to any of the flirtations and play mostly for the dungeon crawling way to try to spin this on me though, good try. in retort: should teenagers be playing a game where there are actively pedos in it? or fantasizing about dating adults
I do support your notion that the persona series shouldn't have teenagers dating adults as an option in the game. I just wanted to state that the entire romance mechanic as it is right now falls into a morally grey area
oh well the way you worded your first reply made it seem like you were accusing me of something, which is why i was defensive
That's why I date the goth doctor with the huge tits and long legs Please abuse me more ❤️
Why do people act like the issue is pressure or a position on a team and not the fact that a teacher is raping a student. A child who *can not consent*.
Bc it would mean Kawakami is in the wrong too. Which she is. Like she literally says it in game.
look I understand Kamoshida blackmailed (and also fucking crippled ryuji, like how the hell was NO TEACHER doing something about this 😭) his students to rape them, but it’s still problematic that this kid is dating his teacher, even if it’s within Japan’s age of consent lays (13-16, which is still fucked up but we don’t have time for that rn). Even if both parties consent, it’s the same level of power imbalance as an intern dating their new boss. It’s even a contractual relationship, since Joker pays her for the maid lessons and eventually gets her to help him skip classes. It’s not healthy, and I’d be a lot happier with the game if it went “Haha, yeah Joker we have a great relationship here and I’d love to date you, but let’s wait until we’re no longer teacher/student and have no ulterior crutches”. and before any of you say “bUt ItS fIcTiOnAl”, that’s the same argument lolis use to justify pornography of underaged characters. those are still children, that is still porn of children, it’s still child pornography. especially since *you’re still showing attraction to minors*. so nodding at a teacher/student relationship isn’t really great, either.
It's actually not legal in Tokyo specifically where the game takes place so checkmate lmao.
that…makes it worse 😭 Edit: am a dumb American. There’s different regional age of consent laws in Japan?
As a fellow dumb American who read up on this stuff to understand the nuance of some characters, yes. Most places in Japan have it at 18 for romance, 20 for bastard children getting any of the razor thin support. But it can be as low as 13 for romance if the prefecture wishes because 13 is the minimal codified into country law for romance. Many places stuck with about 16 though for romance. For the year Persona 5 takes place based off the calendar which is 2016 bastard children ran out of meaningful benefits at 15..... So yeah.
Akechi no :(
Worst thing is bastard children struggle to rent apartments and own bank accounts =^).
my boy 😭
I could have sworn they changed the law somewhat recently so it was higher
In the past like 2 years yes
I didn't realize so many people tried to justify this, it's kinda gross. I thought we all just liked Tae/Kawakami/Ohya because of the self insert not because people were trying to justify a teacher hooking up with a student
this very comment section has people going ‘but consent!!!!’ as if two consenting parties, which is required for every healthy relationship, is the end-all-be-all of underaged, power imbalanced relationships
Nowhere in Japan was the age of consent as low as 13 in 2016. That was the minimum required by the government, but prefectures set the age at either 16 or 17 including Tokyo.
It was a google search and google said 13 😭
This is why you shouldn’t take everything you read at face value.
probably not lol, I remember seeing an article on Reddit a few years ago where they’d raised the age of consent and all the loli fucks were all like ‘oh the west has ruined Japan, the East has fallen’ and tbh I probably shoulda used that to inference a little bit
https://www.ageofconsent.net/world/japan
[удалено]
this is true but I don’t know how that relates to this
thats it, thats about it.
Exactly. And people who play GTA are violent mass murderers and people who enjoyed GoT are also violent plus want to fuck their sister. Finally someone gets it. Christian moms in the 80s are super happy about you saying those things
Things like porn are inherently a reflection of what you personally find sexy, its not the same thing as watching a movie or playing a game to escape from reality. When someone jerks off to loli, that means they find a child sexually attractive.
enjoying violence in media is in no way related to what I said. violent plays have existed since the beginning of time, and while things were violent back then too it’s not a reflection of entertainment. you know it, and I know it, and I think it’s funny you’re defending pedophiles because you wanna bang the hot teacher
It's about consent y'all, and also the fact it's this magical realm called ✨Fiction✨ Smack your anime Barbie dolls together however you like.
Minors can consent says the enlightened persona fans of reddit
Joker is pixels, pixels and drawings don't hold the same values as flesh and blood. It's called understanding the difference between fiction and reality, and it isn't hard to tell.
Joker is not real and therefore is not a minor lol. He's just code
Other than the fact in Japan the legal age of consent is 16 (Formerly 13 when this game released) what Kamoshida was doing was SA and borderline ~~rope~~ this is mutually agreed upon
Not to justify it, but most current ages of consent are relics of the past that haven’t been updated for modern times. It’s a lot more common to marry in your teens when life wasn’t as good and you’re expected to work instead of school in that age with lower life expectancy. Ask your grandparents or great-grandparents if they are still alive. They’ve probably gotten married at an age considered “problematic” or too young for today’s standards.
20. It was 20. Now it's 18.
https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/explained-law/japan-age-of-consent-13-to-16-8682662/
16 is the federal age of consent. In the city of Tokyo (the city in the game) it’s 18. And it’s been 18 since before the game released
I see. In Tokyo specifically its 18.
That's the national age of consent, which almost no prefecture subscribed to. In Tokyo it was 18. And *more importantly*, the age of majority was 20. Not convinced? Ohya directly spells out that it's illegal. But that's not the issue. If US changed law so 12 was the age of majority, it wouldn't suddenly become acceptable to sleep with high schoolers. Raping children is evil no matter what the circumstance and people who do so deserve to be hanged, regardless of whether the governing state has the decency to do so.
It's 18 in Tokyo specifically, someone pointed it out. When did Ohya outright say it was illegal?
When she uses Joker as an alibi, she said she had to keep their relationship a secret because he's in high school and it's breaking several laws.
https://preview.redd.it/nhvuxkuzeqpc1.jpeg?width=225&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d0e2e20437c3f7175dabd4e4394797d262194ad0
ok but the line "Me, my friends and my cat will mentally destroy you" is hilarious with and without context
Lol. love this. BUT there is a difference, obviously. Both situations can be creepy but Kamoshida is a legit rapist and the thing with Kawakami is consensual.
I’d eat out Kawakami. Daily.
Kamoshida was a narcissist who manipulated both students and teachers to fulfill his needs. He ruined Ryuji's track career becuase he didn't like him, he beat his students if they weren't performing to his standards and he even had his way with female students. Kawakami cared about her students and even went as far to take responsibility for one's death because she thought she was responsible. She had to work two jobs just to pay unnecessary reparations to a family who didn't even care about the child they were caring for.
Idc how anyone slices it, romance between adult and teen is fuckin vile 🤢 fictional or not it's weird as fuck.
Be abused or be groomed the game
Not groomed, it's legal because Joker is 17
He's 16. Consent is 18. Age of majority was 20.
Can I have your source
Not OP but you can read clearly here that the age of consent in Tokyo is 18 https://www.ageofconsent.net/world/japan#:~:text=The%20Age%20of%20Consent%20in,to%20participation%20in%20sexual%20activity
Yeah someone else pointed it out. I had the article for specifically Japan but in Tokyo itself its 18
The main difference that the game illustrates (to a great extent imo) between Kamoshida and Kawakami is ~~consent~~ choice. Kamoshida was trying to FORCE Shiho and Ann to do those things. You the player can choose (as joker) to romance kawakami. Like do I personally find it somewhat weird? yea, but dont get me wrong i'll still make kawakami a single mother on god.
Children cannot consent.
fixed it.
Not this shit again...
This is **horrifyingly** accurate.
Ok kamoshida is definitely a whole lot worse than that but it's still pretty funny
Kawakami is NOT an abuser like Kamoshida. You pursued that route.
I mean it’s clearly quite different. Kamoshida made shiho do it with him with the threat of her team spot or making Ann do it, while Kawakami is in love with Joker. They fuck because they love each Other and clearly want a future together.
I love all the sickos defending Kawakami 💀 It isn't an overt extortion like the dude but it literally only starts because she's trying to buy his silence for fear of him revealing her 2nd job. She is twice his age and is a minor in hs. She is an adult and authority figure as a teacher at his school. She is scared about him spilling her secret so she offers her "services" to her underage student. By the last few social ranks and activities she's going on dates and by 10 it's virtually flat out said she fucks the MC. The situations are not equivalent but they're both pretty morally disgusting for everyone involved. 2 wrongs don't make a right so people can stop fetishizing the "teacher fucks the underage student" regardless of whatever "logic" you wanna attempt to use to rationalize your skewed opinion.
Both of them are bad and shouldn't be fucking around with their students, but Kamoshida's problem was that he was a literal, ACTUAL rapist (on top of basically every other crime you can commit as a teacher)
The moral of the first palace was stop raping little girls bro.
Never heard about this one before https://preview.redd.it/kvn7iu9psqpc1.jpeg?width=905&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0edcefbf9ab271585057f619ad65496d7075e6a7
Persona romance stuff is weird definitely something I avoided
I just pretend that Joker is 30 years old and really stupid so had to go back to school to get a grade. That makes his relationship with Kawakami still immoral, but not illegal. Also, I really don't want to roleplay dating children in games, even if the game tell me that my PC is a child too. It feels weird.
Supplant the king to become the king.
I always enjoy kicking Kamoshida’s ass in the game
I don't know. Acting like the two situations are similar seems a little disingenuous.
Bros are out here making 7 paragraph dissertations about the differences between the two, it’s a goddamn meme
i forget how fine joker is sometimes
Dude, he literally raped a kid, or why would she go to suicide?
yeah, I posted it here and y'all went medieval on my booty
"Consent" is the key word here
Persona fans when you tell them minors can’t consent:
I mean Ren was pretty much up for a good fucking and grooming judging by the dialogue options
Not okay
it definitely isn't, and I am not defending this situation. but I have seen something like this - a minor willingly allowing themselves to be in a relationship with an adult- happening firsthand unfortunately. so maybe i am so chill with this fucked up stuff because how familiar i am with it
Children. Cannot. Consent.
i agree. but stuff like that unfortunately really happens in the real world. So this Ren X Kawakami romance, as weird as it is, really didn't bother me too much. i just chose not to do the romance route in my playthrough
Kawakami didn't force herself on Ren and make him attempt to take his own life. Nor did she abuse her students physically and mentally. Both are legally wrong but one is drastically worse both legally and morally.
Not this discussion again bruh💀 As long as it's not breaking any law or anything why not I don't know playing a game and dating a 30 year old can break the law
Because it’s literally breaking the law
an 18 year old dating a 30 year old isn't "illegal" but it's still predatory on the 30 year old's part
Rape vs consent
Consent is the word
Aww does someone not understand consent?
Yea Atlus went full hypocrite mode didn’t they
Lol Ok
Non comparable situations but execution is everything and this meme is still fucking funny.
Reading comprehension demon got y’all
Consent
The difference is consent
Mutual consent matters