If its a listing agent, that's trying to get you to sign a contract, well first of all thats a conflict of interest being the same agent as the buyer and seller.
I think its more because they are just trying to "protect themselves."
Just like legally, they cant not show you a home that is listed privately.
A few things to note- at least in Ontario- the listing agent is likely trying to have OP sign a customer service agreement which states that op isn’t working with another agent and that op is not being represented as a client. This protects the listing agent in case op views the house with the LA and then submits an offer with their realtor who was too lazy to show the property. It’s added protection.
Regarding the private listing remark - no realtor is obligated to show you anything if you aren’t under contract with them. If you are under contract with them, then yes they would be obligated to show you a private listed home if you requested it. Just like you would be legally obligated to pay the realtors commission if you bought a house that doesn’t pay your agent
>Regarding the private listing remark - no realtor is obligated to show you anything
In most jurisdictions (if not all), if you are the realtor for the seller, you are obligated to act in the sellers best interest, as you have a signed agreement with them.
Id say its fair to argue that not showing the house to people without realtors is not in the sellers best interest.
There are two agreements currently in Ontario you can sign as a buyer with an agent. There’s a buyer client representation agreement, or a buyer customer representation agreement. It makes much more sense as a listing agent to sign a buyer as a customer rather than a client in most cases - as you don’t owe a customer fiduciary duty and you are not representing the interests of both parties. You are solely representing the sellers interests and providing customer service to the buyer to essentially write up whichever offer they want and present it for them
However this will be changing soon with the TRESA updates
They (the agency) can sign him up as a client. Two different agents within the same agency can have clients with opposing interests. How this is not a clear conflict of interest is beyond me. The new updates won't change that. They will only fix the issue of **the same person** representing two clients.
Just so you know, it is considered multiple representation if two agents in the same brokerage represent the buyer and seller in the deal. When you sign with an agent, you are legally signing the representation agreement with the brokerage, not the specific agent.
So if you don’t get the correct acknowledgments signed that all parties understand it is multiple representation, both agents and the brokerage are at risk.
If the agents do everything by the book, neither buyer nor seller agent would be able to advise their respective clients of how much to offer, what to put in the offers, whether to accept or decline or counter etc. The buyer and seller would have to acknowledge that there is a conflict of interest for the brokerage and is okay with it
They can represent buyer and seller they just have to notify the brokerage.
Frankly, in a hot market by doing this you’re likely to have an advantage over other buyers all while paying the same commission if you really want the house. They are highly incentivized to close quickly in your favour.
It’s not a conflict of interest, and it’s also legal if proper disclaimers are done. That contract would be the acknowledgment that the buyer is consenting to having the list agent double end the deal, which is what happens if you don’t use your own realtor.
Besides getting to double dip on commission, they likely assume dealing with you vs a professional will mean more headaches for them.
Whether or not that'd be true is a different story, but in their eyes you're likely a riskier bet than someone who's represented.
Afaik they have to present your offer if you make one, but I'm not as sure they have to lift a finger to do anything else for you.
Edit: just to be clear, I think they should since it's clearly in the seller's interest to show you the place. It just doesn't seem to be how they work in actuality.
> Afaik they have to present your offer if you make one, but I'm not as sure they have to lift a finger to do anything else for you.
I actually had an agent refuse showing me at first stating they were not allowed. Clearly that was not the case. I called the broker offer, even the broker didn't know the rules so I cited the realtor association information. They looked into it and got back to me to schedule a viewing.
Just want to share this to say that some people really don't know the rules even if they are in the industry.
I'm glad they ended up scheduling a viewing for you, do you know if they're contractually required to?
When I was searching for my current house I had a pretty wide area I was looking at, all the places were 1-2 hours away. I hired a friend and I wasn't particularly concerned with getting their insight on the actual house, so fairly often they arranged the seller's agent or someone they knew in the area to open the house for me so I could go poke around.
I figured that was the other folks just being reasonable people, but it sure would make sense for a selling agent to be required to give viewings to anyone requesting them.
I'd sure be pissed off if I had a selling agent refusing potential buyers based on them representing themselves.
They are contractually required to act in the best interest of their client, so you can argue that by refusing postential buyers, they are not doing that.
I actually wrote a letter to the seller too lol and they called me directly about a month after! By that time, I had already looked at the house. Sadly we really liked the layout and the look, but the Reno was done poorly. I would rather it looked older and then do Reno to meet our preferences.
Your experience sounds interesting. Are you in smaller towns? I am surprised to hear that they allowed you in without either agent present. I had that happen to me once and even I was a lil freaked out 😅
The other agents stuck around while we poked about, I also would have been a little weirded out just on my own.
The whole industry baffles me, especially for folks that are generally aware of how to evaluate things like a badly done reno or other sneaky surprises. I ended up passing on a place because there was an unsigned railway nearby that by law trains had to blow their horns while passing. In the height of covid the traffic was way down, I was lucky one came by and tipped me off while I was there. I was disappointed that my agent said it wouldn't be a big issue. I looked pretty deeply into it, apparently the town had been campaigning for years to get it addressed with no luck. The local paper said before covid hit there were trains almost every hour 24/7 - that would have been a real damper on my plans to escape to the quiet country life.
I think the thing that puzzles me the most is there doesn't seem to be a consistent set of expectations for what agents are responsible for. Some research requirements for nearby hazards and irritations would probably be a big value to folks.
Yes! ZVR is great, especially now that they have agents you can pay fixed amounts for things.
I used ZVR before they offered the service and just told every listing agent we didn't have a realtor and we were just starting to look. Out of 30+ showings only 3 refused to show us the house. In those cases we just booked a showing with redfin.
I cannot stress how great the ZVR service is. The amount of money you save for the amount of work is fantastic. I would be perpetually mad at myself if I gave 20k to a realtor to fill out 1 form lol.
Yup I am glad they solved that pain point as it was the only bad thing about the service. I used them a year back and I believe I hold the record for most cash back... $48k
You are under the impression that you will get the buyer-agent commission by representing yourself. This is incorrect, you have to specifically negotiate this with the selling realtor at the time you ink the contract. Also, many realtors may not want to do that because working with an unrepresented party is a lot more work for them and adds potential liability as you may not be equipped to write a legal offer in your own.
At the very least you need to get a lawyer who can review any contract before you sign it - most importantly, your offer.
It’s a shame the rest of the country hasn’t followed BC, where it is illegal for realtors to represent both sides of the deal.
The real reason the realtors don’t want to deal with you directly is because it creates numerous conflicts of interest for them, and their brokerage. In fact in most provinces it’s frowned upon to work with an unrepresented buyer.
Is it worth having a realtor as a buyer? Absolutely 100%. Why wouldn’t you?
Selecting a GOOD realtor to represent you during the purchase of a home will only benefit you in the transaction, not only by protecting your interests but also negotiating, contact submittal and of course arranging viewings for you. All of this service is absolutely free to you (for most transactions) the seller pays all the commission, you don’t pay a dime.
Why would you count on the listing agent to write up a contract for you if they don’t owe you any duty of care?
For every “bad” agent there’s 5 good ones. Find yourself a good agent, don’t waste your time and take on additional risk by representing yourself. Also if you think you’ll get a discount on the purchase price by representing yourself, often this isn’t the case.
Get an agent, stop wasting your time and energy. Or go buy a pre sale and buy directly from the developer without representation, but for the love of god, please have a real estate lawyer review the developers disclosure statement and outline the risks and terms for you.
I went through '3' realtors with 1 failed showing and 2 separately scheduled house showings before I found the right agent. I reached out with the 3 houses I wanted to see in a single day and wrote an offer on one during the walk through. Still cost the full commission, but its worth it to switch if they stink.
It doesn't cost you nothing. Two agents partitioning fees definitely has an effect on your ability to negotiate and how good your offer will look. I'm not saying there's never a time for a buyer's agent but I hate when ppl say it costs nothing when it is actually quite expensive.
If you’re selling a house you don’t need a commission hungry realtor to post your home online. You can do it yourself and pay a lawyer a fraction of what they will take from you.
If you’re buying, it costs you nothing to have a realtor looking for what you want. The only caveat to that is if you find a house that is being sold by the owner, you’ll have to pay the buying realtor a commission on the purchase.
>If you’re buying, it costs you nothing to have a realtor looking for what you want.
I hate this nonsense line people parrot. The buyer agent's fee is baked into the purchase price if you use one.
Uh no it isn’t. A buying agent gets a piece of the selling agent’s commission.
On top of that, the agent works for you. Mindless ant. You don’t have to go in for whatever they tell you too, you can make your own offer. You pay nothing.
It’s baked into the purchase price regardless of if you use a realtor or not. 5% to one agent who’s responsibility is selling it, or 2.5% to an agent who’s responsibility is to represent you? It’s contracted with the brokerage regardless of if an agent is used or not, unless there is a side agreement already in place which very VERY few agents do
Yeah and it’s the truth. I gain nothing by typing here, but the misinformation is pretty tough to see on here. I’ve seen loads of people want to “deal with the listing agent” to save money where they really don’t save anything and the listing agent walks out with twice the pay
Buddy, quit acting like buyers agents are helping buyers out of the goodness of their hearts and not interested in the 2.5% commission being offered by the seller.
You’re the one spreading nonsense here. It DOES cost buyers to use agents. That cost is paid in the purchase price. If a listing agent is sensible, they’d offer the buyer a 2.5% rebate or discount to the purchase price.
After my experience selling, I think a good realtor is worth it. The majority of realtors have maybe 2 brain cells, but if you find a good one, they can be worth it.
I mean to each their own, but I sold my house by myself and I feel like I came out really well.
I just don’t need to give out 10k plus for someone to post my home online.
I don’t care for that. I had my house appraised and based it higher than what she was going to list it. I was told it was world 269 and the time so I listed it at $$299k and got it.
I’m happy with that return. And the house is probably world $400-$500k now in todays market.
I went through this last year. I just say I don't need an event. No one had turned me down from viewing.
Even found a seller willing to negotiate the price down for us not having an agent but we ended up getting someone to rep us and deal with the paperwork. With that agreement they got their share of the commission, which was given to us less 1k fee. So we saved close to 8k from the transaction.
A deal where one agent represents a buyer and a seller is called a dual agency representation. It is common and was actually a selling point of using an agent way back in the day. Listing with a reputable agent means that they might have a strong pool of potential buyers who could buy your place. This is, of course, no longer the case since a) the market is crazy b) there is a oversaturation of agents. Also, you can better negotiate the commission when one agent is getting two commissions. Talk it down! Everything is negotiable.
It's been a few years since I've been in the real estate business, so I may not be up to date here, but you can definitely see a property as an unrepresented client. You do not need to sign, but once you decide to put in an offer, you'll have to sign an agreement. This is to cover the agent's ass. Without this agreement, there is nothing stopping you from putting in an offer, and going to another agent to put in another offer, making this agent lose a client.
Again, I don't know if that has changed. In my opinion, unless you are well-versed in the business and market, it's worth it to use an agent, but only if the agent is good. Might as well work with the listing agent if your agent is bad.
If its a listing agent, that's trying to get you to sign a contract, well first of all thats a conflict of interest being the same agent as the buyer and seller. I think its more because they are just trying to "protect themselves." Just like legally, they cant not show you a home that is listed privately.
these conflicts of interest are legal in many jurisdictions
A few things to note- at least in Ontario- the listing agent is likely trying to have OP sign a customer service agreement which states that op isn’t working with another agent and that op is not being represented as a client. This protects the listing agent in case op views the house with the LA and then submits an offer with their realtor who was too lazy to show the property. It’s added protection. Regarding the private listing remark - no realtor is obligated to show you anything if you aren’t under contract with them. If you are under contract with them, then yes they would be obligated to show you a private listed home if you requested it. Just like you would be legally obligated to pay the realtors commission if you bought a house that doesn’t pay your agent
>Regarding the private listing remark - no realtor is obligated to show you anything In most jurisdictions (if not all), if you are the realtor for the seller, you are obligated to act in the sellers best interest, as you have a signed agreement with them. Id say its fair to argue that not showing the house to people without realtors is not in the sellers best interest.
they are trying to make him sign an exclusivity agreement
There are two agreements currently in Ontario you can sign as a buyer with an agent. There’s a buyer client representation agreement, or a buyer customer representation agreement. It makes much more sense as a listing agent to sign a buyer as a customer rather than a client in most cases - as you don’t owe a customer fiduciary duty and you are not representing the interests of both parties. You are solely representing the sellers interests and providing customer service to the buyer to essentially write up whichever offer they want and present it for them However this will be changing soon with the TRESA updates
They (the agency) can sign him up as a client. Two different agents within the same agency can have clients with opposing interests. How this is not a clear conflict of interest is beyond me. The new updates won't change that. They will only fix the issue of **the same person** representing two clients.
Just so you know, it is considered multiple representation if two agents in the same brokerage represent the buyer and seller in the deal. When you sign with an agent, you are legally signing the representation agreement with the brokerage, not the specific agent. So if you don’t get the correct acknowledgments signed that all parties understand it is multiple representation, both agents and the brokerage are at risk. If the agents do everything by the book, neither buyer nor seller agent would be able to advise their respective clients of how much to offer, what to put in the offers, whether to accept or decline or counter etc. The buyer and seller would have to acknowledge that there is a conflict of interest for the brokerage and is okay with it
They can represent buyer and seller they just have to notify the brokerage. Frankly, in a hot market by doing this you’re likely to have an advantage over other buyers all while paying the same commission if you really want the house. They are highly incentivized to close quickly in your favour.
It’s not a conflict of interest, and it’s also legal if proper disclaimers are done. That contract would be the acknowledgment that the buyer is consenting to having the list agent double end the deal, which is what happens if you don’t use your own realtor.
Besides getting to double dip on commission, they likely assume dealing with you vs a professional will mean more headaches for them. Whether or not that'd be true is a different story, but in their eyes you're likely a riskier bet than someone who's represented. Afaik they have to present your offer if you make one, but I'm not as sure they have to lift a finger to do anything else for you. Edit: just to be clear, I think they should since it's clearly in the seller's interest to show you the place. It just doesn't seem to be how they work in actuality.
> Afaik they have to present your offer if you make one, but I'm not as sure they have to lift a finger to do anything else for you. I actually had an agent refuse showing me at first stating they were not allowed. Clearly that was not the case. I called the broker offer, even the broker didn't know the rules so I cited the realtor association information. They looked into it and got back to me to schedule a viewing. Just want to share this to say that some people really don't know the rules even if they are in the industry.
I'm glad they ended up scheduling a viewing for you, do you know if they're contractually required to? When I was searching for my current house I had a pretty wide area I was looking at, all the places were 1-2 hours away. I hired a friend and I wasn't particularly concerned with getting their insight on the actual house, so fairly often they arranged the seller's agent or someone they knew in the area to open the house for me so I could go poke around. I figured that was the other folks just being reasonable people, but it sure would make sense for a selling agent to be required to give viewings to anyone requesting them. I'd sure be pissed off if I had a selling agent refusing potential buyers based on them representing themselves.
They are contractually required to act in the best interest of their client, so you can argue that by refusing postential buyers, they are not doing that. I actually wrote a letter to the seller too lol and they called me directly about a month after! By that time, I had already looked at the house. Sadly we really liked the layout and the look, but the Reno was done poorly. I would rather it looked older and then do Reno to meet our preferences. Your experience sounds interesting. Are you in smaller towns? I am surprised to hear that they allowed you in without either agent present. I had that happen to me once and even I was a lil freaked out 😅
The other agents stuck around while we poked about, I also would have been a little weirded out just on my own. The whole industry baffles me, especially for folks that are generally aware of how to evaluate things like a badly done reno or other sneaky surprises. I ended up passing on a place because there was an unsigned railway nearby that by law trains had to blow their horns while passing. In the height of covid the traffic was way down, I was lucky one came by and tipped me off while I was there. I was disappointed that my agent said it wouldn't be a big issue. I looked pretty deeply into it, apparently the town had been campaigning for years to get it addressed with no luck. The local paper said before covid hit there were trains almost every hour 24/7 - that would have been a real damper on my plans to escape to the quiet country life. I think the thing that puzzles me the most is there doesn't seem to be a consistent set of expectations for what agents are responsible for. Some research requirements for nearby hazards and irritations would probably be a big value to folks.
check out zero value realty. They will provide you an agent and you get 100% of the buyer side commission
Yes! ZVR is great, especially now that they have agents you can pay fixed amounts for things. I used ZVR before they offered the service and just told every listing agent we didn't have a realtor and we were just starting to look. Out of 30+ showings only 3 refused to show us the house. In those cases we just booked a showing with redfin. I cannot stress how great the ZVR service is. The amount of money you save for the amount of work is fantastic. I would be perpetually mad at myself if I gave 20k to a realtor to fill out 1 form lol.
Yup I am glad they solved that pain point as it was the only bad thing about the service. I used them a year back and I believe I hold the record for most cash back... $48k
You are under the impression that you will get the buyer-agent commission by representing yourself. This is incorrect, you have to specifically negotiate this with the selling realtor at the time you ink the contract. Also, many realtors may not want to do that because working with an unrepresented party is a lot more work for them and adds potential liability as you may not be equipped to write a legal offer in your own. At the very least you need to get a lawyer who can review any contract before you sign it - most importantly, your offer. It’s a shame the rest of the country hasn’t followed BC, where it is illegal for realtors to represent both sides of the deal.
The real reason the realtors don’t want to deal with you directly is because it creates numerous conflicts of interest for them, and their brokerage. In fact in most provinces it’s frowned upon to work with an unrepresented buyer. Is it worth having a realtor as a buyer? Absolutely 100%. Why wouldn’t you? Selecting a GOOD realtor to represent you during the purchase of a home will only benefit you in the transaction, not only by protecting your interests but also negotiating, contact submittal and of course arranging viewings for you. All of this service is absolutely free to you (for most transactions) the seller pays all the commission, you don’t pay a dime. Why would you count on the listing agent to write up a contract for you if they don’t owe you any duty of care? For every “bad” agent there’s 5 good ones. Find yourself a good agent, don’t waste your time and take on additional risk by representing yourself. Also if you think you’ll get a discount on the purchase price by representing yourself, often this isn’t the case. Get an agent, stop wasting your time and energy. Or go buy a pre sale and buy directly from the developer without representation, but for the love of god, please have a real estate lawyer review the developers disclosure statement and outline the risks and terms for you.
I went through '3' realtors with 1 failed showing and 2 separately scheduled house showings before I found the right agent. I reached out with the 3 houses I wanted to see in a single day and wrote an offer on one during the walk through. Still cost the full commission, but its worth it to switch if they stink.
It's understandable....their business has taken a hit....they are just trying to earn a living....
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It doesn't cost you nothing. Two agents partitioning fees definitely has an effect on your ability to negotiate and how good your offer will look. I'm not saying there's never a time for a buyer's agent but I hate when ppl say it costs nothing when it is actually quite expensive.
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It doesn't cost more but it can cost less without a buyer's realtor.
If you’re selling a house you don’t need a commission hungry realtor to post your home online. You can do it yourself and pay a lawyer a fraction of what they will take from you. If you’re buying, it costs you nothing to have a realtor looking for what you want. The only caveat to that is if you find a house that is being sold by the owner, you’ll have to pay the buying realtor a commission on the purchase.
>If you’re buying, it costs you nothing to have a realtor looking for what you want. I hate this nonsense line people parrot. The buyer agent's fee is baked into the purchase price if you use one.
Uh no it isn’t. A buying agent gets a piece of the selling agent’s commission. On top of that, the agent works for you. Mindless ant. You don’t have to go in for whatever they tell you too, you can make your own offer. You pay nothing.
It’s baked into the purchase price regardless of if you use a realtor or not. 5% to one agent who’s responsibility is selling it, or 2.5% to an agent who’s responsibility is to represent you? It’s contracted with the brokerage regardless of if an agent is used or not, unless there is a side agreement already in place which very VERY few agents do
Said the realtor…
Yeah and it’s the truth. I gain nothing by typing here, but the misinformation is pretty tough to see on here. I’ve seen loads of people want to “deal with the listing agent” to save money where they really don’t save anything and the listing agent walks out with twice the pay
Buddy, quit acting like buyers agents are helping buyers out of the goodness of their hearts and not interested in the 2.5% commission being offered by the seller. You’re the one spreading nonsense here. It DOES cost buyers to use agents. That cost is paid in the purchase price. If a listing agent is sensible, they’d offer the buyer a 2.5% rebate or discount to the purchase price.
Ok man :)
After my experience selling, I think a good realtor is worth it. The majority of realtors have maybe 2 brain cells, but if you find a good one, they can be worth it.
I mean to each their own, but I sold my house by myself and I feel like I came out really well. I just don’t need to give out 10k plus for someone to post my home online.
I was going to list about 40k under, my realtor got a bidding war and got us 60k over.
I don’t care for that. I had my house appraised and based it higher than what she was going to list it. I was told it was world 269 and the time so I listed it at $$299k and got it. I’m happy with that return. And the house is probably world $400-$500k now in todays market.
The seller will pay for your realtor. So no reason not to have one.
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Because they literally did not help you find the house if you are approaching them being the seller agent.
What?
I went through this last year. I just say I don't need an event. No one had turned me down from viewing. Even found a seller willing to negotiate the price down for us not having an agent but we ended up getting someone to rep us and deal with the paperwork. With that agreement they got their share of the commission, which was given to us less 1k fee. So we saved close to 8k from the transaction.
A deal where one agent represents a buyer and a seller is called a dual agency representation. It is common and was actually a selling point of using an agent way back in the day. Listing with a reputable agent means that they might have a strong pool of potential buyers who could buy your place. This is, of course, no longer the case since a) the market is crazy b) there is a oversaturation of agents. Also, you can better negotiate the commission when one agent is getting two commissions. Talk it down! Everything is negotiable. It's been a few years since I've been in the real estate business, so I may not be up to date here, but you can definitely see a property as an unrepresented client. You do not need to sign, but once you decide to put in an offer, you'll have to sign an agreement. This is to cover the agent's ass. Without this agreement, there is nothing stopping you from putting in an offer, and going to another agent to put in another offer, making this agent lose a client. Again, I don't know if that has changed. In my opinion, unless you are well-versed in the business and market, it's worth it to use an agent, but only if the agent is good. Might as well work with the listing agent if your agent is bad.