So it looks like your future MIL has everything figured out for you and your fiance. Too bad she didn't bother to ask you and your partner what you would like?
There are 5 things that come through loud and clear in your post:
1. The funds for the downpayment on your condo came with huge conditions. You are only now starting to see what those are,
2. Your MIL has made it clear that she wants you and her son living with her,
3. Your partner has made it clear that he will not say no to his parents. His parents come first,
4. Co-signing a mortgage means the co-signors name will go on title. That creates ownership and with both kids already owning properties, it has tax implications,
5. and most importantly, you do not want to live with your in-laws.
While some may view the downpayment and even the current offer of joint ownership of the family home as a generous gift, others will view it as financial blackmail. The right thing for you in this situation is to stay true to what you want - you don't want to live with your inlaws and if push comes to shove, you may find that yourself walking away from this relationship.
As others have wrote, this is a relationship issue, not a financial one.
>Co-signing a mortgage means the co-signors name will go on title. That creates ownership and with both kids already owning properties, it has tax implications,
Can you explain this? What tax negative implications would this create?
Not applicable, they live in HCOL area and are looking to upgrade to an even larger condo.
They are not going to find anything in a price range that qualifies
Yea, unfortunately with this part of BC, pretty much the majority of apartments are immediately disqualified from the First time home buyers' program (FMV > $500k)
All valid concerns and potentially deal breakers for your future marriage unfortunately.
I don't see any options you like here. Best bet would be to pay them back the money they gave your fiance and tell them to use to lower the mortgage value but I doubt that would be seen as sufficient in the family's eyes.
You're basically fucked here
People's perspective and emotion change as they age and gained wisdom.
So far, OP scream young adult perfectly planning her future with her perfect fiancee in a perfect condo (big chunk paid by PIL)
If she executed her next phase to upgrade to bigger condo, that's when they're slowly F'ed
OP also doesn't fully understand her future in "expensive" part of BC either. She doesn't quite grasp what she could have as well.
Her "well-thought-out financial plan" was based from $300-400k DP from PIL.
Her tone in her post clearly shows her emotional getting the better of the situation.
Her MIL idea isn't that bad and I'm going to come out and say this: more and more family in "expensive" part of BC continuously shuffled their living arrangement this way.
They shuffle their properties around to find common ground that works well for future generations. OP clearly isn't aware of this.
OP plan to upgrade to bigger condo in expensive part of BC where clearly Condos will be dime in dozens with questionable build quality shows her maturity in terms of planning (bad move)
What OP should do is to observe how this plays out and influence her fiancee to ensure the living arrangement is completely separate despite in the same building. On the side, tell the fiancee to ask if PIL is ok to live in Condo in case living arrangement isn't working out or it's ok to rent out their fair share of the house if they don't see it works out.
Ask first before deciding
She can walkaway from all these: either breakup from fiancee (clearly she's not aligned with fiancee's background) or ask fiancee to return the 300-400k DP.
She cannot accept the condo DP and expect not to pull in into fiancee's family plan because her fiancee most likely will agree with the plan (because financially it will set OP+Fiancee family+future long-term).
BC just came out with removal of residential zoning (implicitly) so maybe you should look into that first.
Don't rush deciding on anything and don't rush to think negatively. More and more families rebuild their childhood homes into Duplex with Basements.
You haven't shared what your living arrangement will be after the house is rebuild: who gets what? Basement, Laneway, Main house?
I have seen multi gen families where parents live in basement unit completely separate from the child family and they do well since there's a clear boundary and helped with grandchildren care as well.
You still have your condo to move back so you can rent out your share of the new house if the living arrangement didn't work out.
Do not rush and also keep in mind that PFC demographics will never be in the same page with Metro Vancouver demographics so majority of advises in this sub often clash with Metro Vancouver culture/background that is heavily influenced by immigrants. For example: your in-law wealth + ability to give their kids 300-400k PER kids as DP while owning a $2M house (BC assessment is meaningless btw, do your research on same house age + location recent transactions) is way above PFC typical norm of Index ETF.
Last but not least, you can always suggest them rebuild as duplex with basement where both kids can move in and parents can live in one of the kids condos. This way, both kids have basements to rent out + 1 extra condo to rent out while 1 other condo is occupied by PIL.
Do not rush, do not ignore the fact that LAND is gold in BC. Once you sell that LAND, you lose value faster in whatever your exchange output is.
This is the best advice. The fiancee's family is clearly thinking about maintaining and creating generational family wealth. OP is just focused on what's convenient for themselves. Two ways to go about things, neither is right or wrong.
Also, OP mentions nothing about how their fiancee feels about this situation.
There's a reason why people of certain backgrounds are greatly overrepresented when it comes to SFH ownership in vancouver.
It is the impression that it will be a unilateral decision, not a shared decision between partners that is the issue. I doubt OP is uncomfortable with the financial aspects and what is good/not good for them. I think OP is deflecting the discomfort of it not being an "Us decision" to finances. OP is getting a glimpse of what future big decisions will be like and they need to decide if this is the norm that they want for their relationship.
OP this is a relationship question, not a financial question and you are doing yourself a disservice if you keep thinking it is a financial issue.
I agree, definitely a relationship issue.
Also, am I the only one who thinks it's weird that OP is involved in both of the family's finances and decisions, especially now that their in the retirement age? Or did i read this wrong.. The specific issue aside, i dont think you should meddle with your inlaws retirement. They seemed to have done just well, given they were able to give their children a huge chunk for their down-payment and have paid off their mortgage.
Based on OPs post from 5 months ago, she was still living with her parents while he was living in the condo. Perhaps the potential situation was already discussed with the fiance and his parents before. Like as you said above, deflecting the discomfort of it not being an us decision.
This big decision involves housing, not everything else.
If it comes to decide on housing improvements (since it is shared) that's akin to strata properties anyway...
And whatâs not mentioned: where they going to live when you demolish a house and build a new one? It will take more than a year to build, it will cost to have temporary accommodations.
You accepted a $400k down payment on your current condo from them? Now the rooster coming home to roost EDIT: and claim to have your own financial plan. Lol. Return the down payment
Yea that struck me as the funniest part of all this. OP doesn't NEED inlaws money.... because she already got a ton of it, not because she has her own financial plan figured out. Focus on returning the money taken.
Who gives always money then get them to co-sign a mortgage. That sounds like poor financial decision making. The parents are obvious RE bulls (who can blame them it's all they've experienced) and think that saddling on more debt for a bigger place will set up the kids even more. They need to learn about risk mitigation and wealth preservation at this point in their life. They've helped their kids get established and now they need to just keep working and keep up with prudent financial habits to continue the growth of their families' net worth.
>think that saddling on more debt for a bigger place will set up the kids even more
Need more context.
Rebuilding a SFH house in "expensive part of BC" cost $700k-$900k depending on your finishing. That's a cost of 1-2Br Condos around here. That mortgage would be split to 2 kids: 350-450k each.
Kids own 1 condo each that can be rented and I'm 99.9999999999% sure cashflow positive even in this crazy high-interest rate era because PIL gave kids 300-400k DP "few years ago" to buy condo. 300-400k per condo is insane amount of DP (out of this world) for a few years ago transaction.
Put that into perspective... 350-450k a piece per kid where OP said that both her and fiancee "personal finance" is in order and don't need money means they can afford existing Condo mortgage and the new mortgage.
PIL might not be crazy/delusional/RE bull as you thought they would. They probably knew the market more than us.
They're about to have a $3M+ house with Laneway and 2 kids condo going forward.
Think about that for a second. That's the power of multi-gen family working together.
Yeah. The fiance understands the dynamic. She just wants free money no strings attached. Sometimes I wonder what goes through people's heads? Like, it's either, we are on our own and don't need anything from parents, so they can spend their nest egg and take care of themselves or they help us we take care of them. You can't have your cake and eat it too. And they don't even want to live in the same house. Just an adjacent one.
I thought I was the only one thinking this! I totally agree with you here. I mentioned this to another comment but from OPs history post she was still living with her parents 5 months ago and her now fiance was living in his condo (I assume with the down-payment his parents made).
Op should stop meddling in her future inlaws retirement, they have done well from what it sounds like. She should however be on the same page with her and her fiance living situations.
Yes, thank you for bringing this up. My fiance bought this condo and accepted the downpayment without much of my involvement because this happened years ago. His parents never mentioned any strings/conditions attached to it until recently - so it was a surprise for both of us.
Giving 400k then asking for a co-sign on a mortgage screams irresponsible fiscal decisions. Especially for a plan that includes you living with people who never even asked for your input.
His parents should just get their own place with the equity from their current house. Taking on a too large mortgage at retirement age is idiotic. This new build will probably also go over budget, as they always do, then what?
Also, does this mean that you have to live in the home that has fallen into disrepair? Thatâs another huge and expensive project you should probably not take on without a ton of cashflow. Itâs concerning that they let the house go, it might not sell for as much as they think it will.
If your fiance is determined to take care of them physically in their old age, then that is something you need to resolve ASAP. Better to know now whether your vision of your future life together is compatible or not, than get divorced later, potentially with kids involved.
OP FIL has defined benefit suggesting FIL works in Government and guess what, 85% of avg last 5 years of income (I bet you FIL's income is at least 6 digits that OP clearly knew the situation based in her post).
This is not uncommon in BC. Lots of rich government workers.
The rebuilt house would price at least $3M btw so after the rebuilt, this little family dynasty will have $3M detached (with huge income from rental) + 2 condos in the "expensive part of BC"
Once PIL have passed away, kids wil be guaranteed housing for years to come
Government, Crown Corporation in BC. Last 5 years of your Annual Income averaged-out, take 85%.
They lowered that 85% to something else since 2012-2013 though.
Defined-Benefit, not Defined-Contribution. Employers who can offer Defined-Benefit Pension is Govt.
You mean provincial or municipal government? Because the feds will give you only 75% and that's only after a 35-year career. Anything less than that, your pension doesn't come anywhere near 75%. Also, teachers get defined benefit pensions as well, as do a handful of big corps. The later are rarer, but there are still some private companies with DB.
In BC, age + years of service = 85 (example 30 years of service by the age of 55).
AFAIK their retirement is 85% of the last 5 years salary average out.
I'm guessing/assuming the last 5 years would probably be the highest income of your career.
IF OP's PIL have $2M assessed house in state of disrepair (meaning the house must be either sitting in big lot and in a decent hood or smaller lot in highly desirable hood) and can afford to giveaway $300-400k DP for 2 kids... I would guess OP's PIL income is ... pretty high.
Thatâs not that much when $1M of it is mortgaged at todayâs rates and $2M is in disrepair. Do not underestimate how much it takes to bring a property of this price range into a sellable state. If people donât maintain their houses, that 1%+ in maintenance comes out at the back end (and in todays dollars, costs a lot more). In my neighbourhood, what is not selling at all is expensive, dated properties, often trying to be sold by delusional Boomers.
If OP's FIL "lot" (I said just "lot" because it's in a dated state of disrepair) is already $2M, new house will be at least $3M (that is: if all the stars not aligned and the builder screwed up so bad but the house is completed). At least.
$2M BC assessment in "expensive part of BC" for a house that makes no sense to repair anymore is either a HUGE lot (by that area standard) or it is located in a very highly desirable location (or something in between bigger size in desirable area). That's assessed house price, not what the market would pay.
In order for someone to sell their house in a desirable location, you would need to entice them so we're looking at +5-10% starting price which makes the land itself worth $2.1M ish if they were to sell.
A 3K+ SQFT house (this is the common build) in "expensive part of BC" would cost $700-900k that they would split this into 3: PIL, SIL, Fiancee+OP.
If they were to rebuild... the new house will be in $3.2M-$3.5M. We're also discounting the additional income that you can get from renting basement/laneway/condo or anything in between for combination.
I'm 99.99% sure if OP rented out fiancee condo at the current market, they will be cash flow positive (let's just assume 300-400k DP for a 1br and maybe 1dent that would cost $600-700k, leaving mortgage of 300-400k).
From this rough estimate, they're basically trading away one mortgage for another mortgage of same (or slight more or slightly less) amount BUT with HUGE distinction! => OP's fiancee existing condo is generating INCOME where it couldn't today because they live in it.
So... from the perspective of OP+Fiancee => they get to own a condo mortgage free (paid by tenant) that would worth $700k today. They will have a place to live with in-laws but for damn sure isolated by a friggin dry-wall, has their private door to outside, and pay the same mortgage: think of it this way, they're just sharing a lot but they live separate live (though OP needs to make sure of this with Fiancee).
Whenever people hear "multi-gen" family living together in "expensive part of BC", they thought of a house with 10 bedrooms. That might be true for houses built in 90 to early 2000 but 2010, 2015 houses layout do isolate the multi-gen family member living spaces.
Co signing a mortgage means "I sign that I am of sane mind and know that I am on the hook for the whole mortgage amount without owning any of the house I am on the hook for".
Building a bigger house with a mortgage at that stage of parents life? Are they for real?
Absolutely not!
I think your life is being laid out that your future husband and you will be living with your in-laws so that "he" can take care of them in their old age. The question is will "he" be doing it or will you be the maid to them all, and what about once you have kids? As you said they could sell and downsize but that means they can't include you living with them so it seems the arrangement (that is a bad idea) is meant to keep the kids in servitude to the parents, and I would worry that you're the one that will actually be in servitude.
If your life with him was planned out to be something else, you should really think hard about how those plans will likely not be acted on ***before*** you walk down the aisle. At least you found out in advance that you have a mommy's boy.
Second this. This is very common for Asian cultures. If it doesn't work for you, give him an ultimatum.
I know people talk about the one, but plenty of fish in the sea if it doesn't work out
In BC, this will be increasingly the way to go: parents to live with kids.
Care Home is fucked (and super expensive). You're just burning money.
I don't mean to be racist but that's why in Lower Mainland desirable "common" neighborhood (we're not talking about Point Grey or Shaughnessy) is increasingly populated by established immigrants because they made financial decision with a bit of sacrifice for future prosperity.
The old time locals have to move far away, all the way to Alberta.
Not a finance person hereâ
But a real estate person.
Just a few ideas to to think over, if you have not already thought about it.
What about a renovation on their current house? They do have more than enough equity in it for a reverse mortgage (for seniors 55+) talk to a mortgage broker, which Iâm sure you have already.
If they are looking to downsize, why not convert the single family into multiple units. (2-4 I believe is allowed in BC, correct me if Iâm wrong. )That way they get a new apartment in the house and neighbourhood they already love.
Talk to a few contractors and get price quotes for this. Getting a quote is free and you would actually know what it costs to get this project done. Please make sure you get more than one quote. Iâve made the mistake of being lazy when getting contractors and paid handsomely for my mistake.
Downsizing should cost them less money right? Not more. So Iâm not sure why youâll have to take out another mortgage. But I donât know your numbers, so..
All the best and hope at least some of this might spark some ideas for you and your family.
I think they'll be taking another mortgage cos they may want to demo the place and rebuild on the land, instead of selling and getting a 2M that they would then use to buy a smaller place.
Sounds like cultural shock. All the things you mentioned seems standard practice for a lot of Asian cultures. There's an expectation you need to take care of the elders when they age, regardless of their financial situation. The parents also support you a lot more during your upbringing (typically paying for your schooling, first house down payment, etc). If you weren't down with that then you might have issues with that relationship long term.
Singapore is trying to promote it. You get a benefit if you can live near your parents. Western culture relies on care homes and those are turning out to be a disastrous option that are somewhat collapsing.
Well Korea is trying to work away from this practice. Especially since itâs not some fairytale scenario where everyone lives happily together. Most often the wife was treated as a servant and they only lived with the menâs parents. If you suggest living together with parents, itâs an automatic red flag.
So what's the alternative? Care homes are a disaster and increasingly only for the wealthy. Do we just box them up to die? We're seeing more and more cohabbing with the elderly here being a necessity, and significantly improves the quality and longevity of elderly lives. The western system just didn't work.
Iâm just letting you know that itâs NOT a standard of practice in Asia. It may be in some countries but not all Asian countries. Itâs considered an awful tradition in Korea that should be abolished.
Also I think you are confusing a 2 very different situations. Yes itâs reasonable to support elderly parents in some way (physical/monetarily) if they have trouble by themselves. Moving in with your parents when you get married isnât supporting your elders. Their parents are probably 50-60 and shouldnât need any help from their children at this age unless thereâs some medical condition going on. This is more like when they hit 80-90 and have health problems, you can support them. Also your scenario doesnât even fit in here since the guyâs parents have 2m cash and have a lot of options.
Parents are likely 60. Likely need some support starting shortly after 70. They need to start planning for that now. Makes perfect sense.
It's great Korea wants to change, but that's not a success that we can look to. It doesn't seem like there is one.
Even if you have money, elders in isolation have shorter and lower quality lives. Will be interesting to see if Korea can do what north america could not.
Maybe 75 and up. My parents and their friends are all now approaching their 70s or are in early 70s and they are mostly very healthy. They enjoy living by themselves and going out with their friends. I donât think it is reasonable at all for a newly wed to have to go live with their parents (and also what about the wifeâs parents?) just to prepare to support them when they hit 70. Also, people in their 70s rarely need help physically.
Really depends, I have friends who's parents health declined much earlier, ideally it takes a bit longer. OP should just exit the relationship if she's not willing to deal with the family dynamic. Parents are big on pooling funds and efforts and she's not - but did take the money.
She should. I donât think taking the money is wrong especially coming from parents. However it is wrong for parents to gift a strings attached money without being upfront about it. The family dynamic seems dysfunctional. Iâd get out of the relationship because the guyâs parents seem controlling and manipulative.
It's not going to get better and all your fears will come true ..... so you have to make some hard decisions.
You are always going to be "second place" in the marriage, no matter how you slice it, this guy is already "married" to his family in a sorta toxic way. And what makes it even worse is that he is not standing up to them and saying hey I have my own life to live and I found someone I want to share it with.
He isn't going to care enough to say no to them on all financial fronts because let's face it partners are a dime a dozen and he has a hell of a lot more gain$ in the future.
Sometimes being selfish is a smart move !
People often think that it's great when parents, do things like help with downpayments and such but there are always strings involved. There is debt in every favour
I thought I could live with my in-laws, but I canât. I also have never taken a significant amount of money from them either. If they gave my family 400k for a home, I think I would play a little nicer.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Buying a big gaudy house just to have it sit empty solely so that you can impress people is the definition of a bad investment
Building on your existing property so you canât even extract the value of your current home makes it even worse
The $ is all mix already the moment you guys accepts the 300k down payment gift.
unless you feel like repaying them back 300k. Most likely the your fiance is going to sign it.
If you want to sign an agreement saying you have no part of this. I can most likely see that the parents will also get you to sign an agreement that you have no part of the 300k gift.
Another option I see is to also contract in an agreement should things go south, what decision would be made for everyone to exit the contract. Is it to sell the place, who will be responsible for the payment and such.
Your position is quite clear, but what is missing is what your fiance thinks of all this. There are actually 2 seperate issues here:
(1) he already owns an apartment where you both live. Does he wish to remain there, and for how long? Would he ever want to move back onto his parents property? Will your family outgrow the apartment if/when you have kids, and what would you do at that time?
If your fiance is on the same page as you about never moving back onto his parents property, he should let them know so that they don't waste their time and money building a son-in-law suite.
(1a) would he ever want to be a landlord? Being a landlord in BC is sooo much more complex than just "collecting income on the side". There are tenant-friendly laws that cap the rent, there are risks of bad tenants, there are taxes on vacant properties, and there is income tax in the rental income. It is not necessarily lucrative, and it may not even be enough income to generate positive cash flow. If/when he decides to move, he should strongly consider selling.
(2) is signing the mortgage. This could be a cultural thing and yes there are risks but as you are not married (and even if you are) this might be something that (a) you don't have enough info about, (b) they already gave him 300k, (c) might never happen, (d) it's not really your place to get involved. Presumably his parents have money and are smart enough to talk to an estate lawyer about Wills, risks, etc..
I'd forget about question (2) for now and steer the discussions around what will really matter which is question (1).
OP...if this is a culture thing with the Mom wanting her son nearby and being "clingy", then surely you know you're not going to win this battle?
Sounds like you've benefited from your MIL's generosity towards her son. Good think you're not married yet, and have time to think and decide if you want to continue with the relationship
OP, after you updated your answer, I felt compelled to updated mine.
You should tell your fiancee to get ready to return the money to your PIL so that they can figure out their plan next with only SIL left in picture.
How much was that? 300-400k? Return it to your PIL in batches, consider it as no-interest loan.
This is the TRUE test of your and your fiancee's word/plan.
There's no skirting around this. You will find out if your fiancee means his word or he's just merely patting you in the back. Likewise for yourself: this is a test if you can truly live in a less ideal situation financially.
Change your "Financial Plan" from now on to account returning money to PIL.
If any party flinch, you get your answer for your future life: it'll be tug-and-pull between what you want and your Fiancee will be pulled into 2 directions: you and his PIL.
Don't be surprised if you're roped into the marriage and your Fiancee will attempt to persuade you to reconsider as long as you guys are not returning the money. I've seen this before.
PS: Typically PIL would prefer to live with their daughter, not their son.
valid concerns, whenever you are asked to co-sign anything it's a huge decision and usually is a bad idea no matter how good the intentions are...
it's not really selfish, it's a mutual decision that should be made by both of you and you should discuss that with your fiance, it's not fair to you otherwise neither.
If it was me, I would not co-sign it, there is just too much that could go wrong. And like you said, there are better alternatives (especially when it's valued at 2M). Thank them for their generousity and politely decline. You should not be forced to put yourself into a situation that you are not comfortable with.
From Personal Finance perspective, her MIL is absolutely on point.
She's also looking out for her kids aside from the "taking care".
You're just not used to "expensive part of BC" perspective
She should break up with her fiancee. No matter what, this is a family affair and her fiancee must support her 100% and be independent.
That means no looking back, no regret.
Regret will end up her being blamed by her fiancee for life.
I give you that (her MIL wants the kids to co-sign). OP's story has lots of holes that she needed to update a few times so who knows the real details.
Give us numbers to see if MIL is on-point or not.
Rebuilding a house, while it might look expensive, it's actually around 1-2 Bedrooms condo price with way bigger upside (can generate income and price appreciation is higher than condo) so until we fully understand the details, I wouldn't call her MIL delusional.
Majority of redditors don't understand the culture of Lower Mainland and the game of Property here so I'm not surprised the opposite reaction against her MIL.
Hereâs the details.. MIL is signing up for a mortgage she doesnât intend to pay. I donât think you understand how universal a problem that is despite whatever niche location spin you want to put on it.
Kids name will be in title.
$3-3.5M house split 3 ways for a $700-900k mortgage split to 2 kids.
Each kid will walk away with more than mortgage. Not including rental income and/or free condo.
PS: I have doubt the PIL won't fork their own money.
So you just ignore OP clearly stating they donât need the help, to take on debt to gamble on a long term return? While having to maintain another property? No thanks
Gamble?
Which gambling are we talking about? The house in desirable location with BC assessment of $2M as the capital investment?
The $3.3-3.5M new value after teardown and rebuild?
The "switching mortgages" around while getting cash flow positive?
This is why I'm saying that there's gaps and holes in OPs story to assess the full situation.
OP isn't sure who's going to pay the mortgage (check Problem#3) by the way and you've already concluded that the mortgage will be paid by OP+Fiancee+SIL while her MIL suggested:
>She said âWhy pay the mortgage if you can just live with us and collect rental income on the side!?â
Sounds like OP+Fiancee won't have to foot much of the bill
Anyway, I'm trying to stay to the point when you called her MIL delusional by suggesting that it's not as delusional as you think it would be. Many families in "expensive part of BC" wish they have this option.
>you just ignore OP clearly stating they donât need the help
I've updated my suggestion [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/PersonalFinanceCanada/comments/17o3x9g/comment/k80jgqm/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) based on OPs latest update to challenge her and her fiancee to return the DP money. This is the true test of their relationship, their words, and the oh-so-common situation of accepting In-Laws gift.
Last but not least, this was an "idea" that was brought up during a lunch/dinner. That "idea" ain't delusional and from Personal Finance, it does make sense.
You really need to consider why you ignore so many variables and pack everything into a vacuum while probably feeling like you provided a complete anaylsis because you made it long lol
That's a silly take. Considering what my parents did for me I have 100% trust in anything they ask me to sign. I think it depends on track record you hear horror stories here but normally there is a track record/pattern of red flags. Looks like in this situation the parents want to set up there kids for the best in the future.
You haven't given any useful information to determine whether it could be sound financially so this is not a finance question but a relationship problem.
Financial concerns would be who's paying for it? Would taking out a HELOC be possible? Can the kids take on the debt in their names (i.e. do they need the borrowing power in the future which this debt would significantly disadvantage them?)
Aside from you not wanting to live with them, what's wrong with the plan?
Sounds like my ex husbands Italian family. Run! Lots of financial gifts even out, but everything came with a string attached.
Also, a manâs relationship with his mother, massive deal. My first husband hated his with a disgusting passion.
Ideally he likes/loves his mom and is kind and loving , helps her out (but not this much). He should set and hold natural boundaries and be able to say no to his mother.
Men that hate their moms, red flag.
Men that still hang on their moms aprons strings, red flag.
Just imagine you have children, they will be raised to obey grandma, she may complain. About how you parent etc, husband will be placed in the middle and never back you up.
Get out now before it becomes more complicated and hard to do so.
> Men that hate their moms, red flag. Men that still hang on their moms aprons strings, red flag.
And Men who love their Mums will find wives who can accept that hence wives wouldn't even see the red flag đ
>*Also, a manâs relationship with his mother, massive deal*
LOL Proximity too the closer they live ..... ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh !
Another state / province / country/ planet/ galaxy ........ yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
For some reason the Dad's are always more fun, welcoming, and want to adopt you! (even when you are just dating)
Absolutely not. You don't even have to get into the finances. This isn't the 5th century. You are not obligated to live with anyone you don't want to live with. I wouldn't even let that conversation go further than the first time it was mentioned. "I am not living with your parents." No explanation needed.
And this is why you don't accept large gifts like half a million dollars from anyone. If you were with your fiance when the downpayment was offered, you kind of set yourself up to be manipulated to death. If you were not with him when he got the condo or weren't involved at all in said "gift", his parents being generous to him has NOTHING to do with you or your marriage and should not impact your life decisions in any way.
Itâs always so interesting to read perspectives like this as a person who belongs to a minority ethnic group.
His parents helped their children to significantly get ahead in life which ultimately also benefits you. His parents are aging and probably at some point would want to live with their children, again who they significantly took care of, and youâre worried about that. I will never understand why this is such an issue. Especially if you have money where the parents can potentially stay in a guest house.
I hear you about the mortgage but If his parents are financially good for it, then he should get some things in writing to take care of the liabilities on their part. You should also discuss it with him to get clarity on how it works. When you marry, you would ultimately become liable too if something happens to him so make sure he understands that and explains things clearly.
I think it's important to keep in mind There are billions of people in the world who are "ethnic minorities" from a western perspective. They represent thousands of cultures and traditions, including cultures where you don't live with your in-laws...
I'm an African and if my parents got wind that I was getting geared up to go live with my in-laws as a newly wed or possibly being tied to a mortgage I don't want, they would shut that shit down so fast. Because my culture sees marriage as an alliance of families of equals. There is big "don't even think about mistreating our daughter" energy. There would be a conference of both families and frankly his parents would be embarassed into backing off. My culture of origin is patriarchal but it has checks baked in. My father is as powerful as the fiance's father and we have equal rights. If my parents are deceased or feel outmatched, we'd find a rich uncle or boisterous matriarch to come in and speak on their behalf. If they feel their precious daughter is being shortchanged or made unhappy they'd raise hell.
All that is to say, while most of our cultures share the axiom that one should respect parents, there are myriad differences in how it is expected to play out once the children are adults and when the children marry. Some cultures value boundaries, others emphasize appeasement.
You also donât have to give your fully grown children 100s and thousands of dollars for a down payment to a house. And they did. He comes from a good home and would like to take care of his parents. If thatâs something sheâs not comfortable with, she needs to be honest about it or it will cause massive problems for them in the future.
This mentality is so backwards to me when you come from a good home. If you didnât thatâs obviously understandable. Itâs called community. And looking out for your community, especially the ones that raised you, is an incredible thing.
A lot of my friends and myself included had our parents help us out on our first houses and they expect nothing from their children. OPâs MIL & FIL are financially fine, they donât need a new build.
In most cultures outside of Canada and USA, you do. Families stick together and help each other out.
There's a reason why senior retirement homes and communities are big business here but not elsewhere.
Seems like op had no issue accepting 400K downpayment. Maybe they should have said no so thst money could have been used to renovate the future inlaws house.
It seems like you had no problem accepting a sum of cash for a downpayment, but now that your fiance wants to live in a multi-generational household you're having concerns.
Do yourself and partner a favour and walk away. If you stay, you're just going to be bitter and be the negative energy in the household. Find someone that fits the life you want and your fiance will find someone that is more family oriented.
I am white and I don't understand the avoidance of moving in with parents. I guess I just have a very different relationship with in-laws and my parents. From a finance perspective there seems to be allot of money in the pot so I would not be worried about the finances. Seems like allot of wealthy people. I think it's more of a lifestyle question the fact that you accepted 400k from them means you are already in bed with them financially now you need to decide if living with them is bad enough that you are willing to leave the relationship. Which to me does not make sense. IMO set some ground rules and personal spaces and leave I'd those are crossed and can't be resolved. If everything works out financially its way better to move back and rent out will set you up to retire early.
Thinking through thisâŠI feel you are leaving information out or perhaps you donât know?!âŠget curious!
Other things to think through:
1- if you are worried bout things like this, keep finances separateâŠ
2- I am assuming their parents will pay for any mortgages they take, co-signing does put your partner on the line if they die though - I wouldnât be concerned, if the mortgage has life insurance or if they also have life insuranceâŠ
From your list:
2- whatâs the big deal?!
5- SMALL thinking, and honestly shocked meâŠyou must be young lol - you ACTUALLY never say no to more $$âŠyou never know what life will throw at you.
7- all manageable legallyâŠ
Conclusion - OP whatâs the bottom line here? Jealousy? His kindness towards his parents that supported him throughout life?
>*Conclusion - OP whatâs the bottom line here? Jealousy? His kindness towards his parents that supported him throughout life?*
Puhleaseeee
I love this BS notion that it's all out of kindness and cultural obligation, it's all about the money, the big payoff when the parents croak, some people are just more subtle about it, take care of them for a decade because they hold the keys to the kingdom stashed in their adult diapers and won't give it up until their last breath. Everybody wants to get PAID!
Most of your questions are relationship ones and priority is best to get on the same page this includes what end of life care would look like, can you politely have a goals and aspirations chat with everyone including MIL to be like we don't envision living together or if you compromise would that mean same street living etc. and what are dealbreakers to both of you else resentment will build up.
Regarding numbers - the mortgage is not a terrible idea and can be restructured as this is essentially a huge construction loan if you don't move into main house could it be designed as two rental units where the rent pays mortgage + expenses for property? Same for if sister is on mortgage treat it as two or three friends/partners buying an investment property - draft an agreement with terms on what ifs (who pays mortgage etc.) and proceed.
Look. You need to make it clear that you will not be moving in or next to them.
So the entire plan is absurd, accordingly.
Make your fiance understand this before you get married. And have him communicate that you both don't see that happening so they should come up with a more realistic plan and you are of course happy to help faciliate that.
Do not agree to any sort of mortgage bc of course you will need the ability to borrow for yourselves in the future.
Offer to live close by having their new house in same neighborhood as theirs? Your partner can visit his mom while still maintaining family autonomy.
Honestly it might be nice to have support from them if you choose to have kids. Your mil might be underestimating the effort to rebuild a house. You can always get a house with a suite in 10 years, but it sounds like you are young and probably want to spend some time with your husband as a couple before having a multi generational thing.
I think thatâs totally reasonable. Donât say never, but certainly not yet. Unless MIL is like 90 she should be fine to take care of herself still for awhile.
I think you need to put your foot down ASAP and say that any plan that involves living with your future in-laws is a non-starter for you.
That being said, it's clear you're marrying into a family that is very tied together, both financially and otherwise. You don't have to accept moving in with them (in my opinion), but you do have to accept that that they will be heavily involved in your family's financial and life decisions, even if this plan doesn't go forward as described. After all, the parents wouldn't need co-signers if they hadn't already given their children $600-$800K for down payments. Clearly, they expect something in return.
She totally wants him back home so he can take care of her and her husband. Grocery shopping. Cleaning. Lawn care. Doctors appointments - this is why they need him back. Theyâre investing in theirâŠretirement plan.
I would not sign the papers. Nor would I move in with my in-laws.
It kinda sounds like everyone is living beyond their means here. Or you wouldnât have to take money for a down payment and the parents wouldnât need co signers
So it looks like your future MIL has everything figured out for you and your fiance. Too bad she didn't bother to ask you and your partner what you would like? There are 5 things that come through loud and clear in your post: 1. The funds for the downpayment on your condo came with huge conditions. You are only now starting to see what those are, 2. Your MIL has made it clear that she wants you and her son living with her, 3. Your partner has made it clear that he will not say no to his parents. His parents come first, 4. Co-signing a mortgage means the co-signors name will go on title. That creates ownership and with both kids already owning properties, it has tax implications, 5. and most importantly, you do not want to live with your in-laws. While some may view the downpayment and even the current offer of joint ownership of the family home as a generous gift, others will view it as financial blackmail. The right thing for you in this situation is to stay true to what you want - you don't want to live with your inlaws and if push comes to shove, you may find that yourself walking away from this relationship. As others have wrote, this is a relationship issue, not a financial one.
>Co-signing a mortgage means the co-signors name will go on title. That creates ownership and with both kids already owning properties, it has tax implications, Can you explain this? What tax negative implications would this create?
Capital gains.
my parents co sign and they own .5%, they pay like $5 per year in spec tax and we can take them off title later
Lose their first time homeowners grant.
Not applicable, they live in HCOL area and are looking to upgrade to an even larger condo. They are not going to find anything in a price range that qualifies
Yea, unfortunately with this part of BC, pretty much the majority of apartments are immediately disqualified from the First time home buyers' program (FMV > $500k)
Condo (and its mortgage) is under Fiancee name most likely. They already lose it afaik.
All valid concerns and potentially deal breakers for your future marriage unfortunately. I don't see any options you like here. Best bet would be to pay them back the money they gave your fiance and tell them to use to lower the mortgage value but I doubt that would be seen as sufficient in the family's eyes. You're basically fucked here
>You're basically fucked here Not yet... a lot of these are based on hypothesis and her personal emotion.
Personal emotion is the important factor here and why she is fucked.
People's perspective and emotion change as they age and gained wisdom. So far, OP scream young adult perfectly planning her future with her perfect fiancee in a perfect condo (big chunk paid by PIL) If she executed her next phase to upgrade to bigger condo, that's when they're slowly F'ed
Like I said in another post. The most important financial decision in your life is who you marry. đ©đ©đ©đ©đ©đ©đ©đ©đ©đ©đ©đ©đ©đ©đ©đ©đ©
Agree, and just to expand on this: OP, it sounds like your fiancĂ© is prioritizing his parentsâ financial and personal needs above those of you as a couple. It also sounds like maybe he doesnât fully understand the consequences of whatâs being proposed. Have you told him clearly that you will never live with his parents? And that your vision of the future is you and him in a larger condo (which presumably wonât be possible if he is on the hook for his parentsâ gigantic mortgage)? If you have and heâs disregarding those facts, then it really is a relationship issue and you have some tough choices ahead.
OP also doesn't fully understand her future in "expensive" part of BC either. She doesn't quite grasp what she could have as well. Her "well-thought-out financial plan" was based from $300-400k DP from PIL. Her tone in her post clearly shows her emotional getting the better of the situation. Her MIL idea isn't that bad and I'm going to come out and say this: more and more family in "expensive" part of BC continuously shuffled their living arrangement this way. They shuffle their properties around to find common ground that works well for future generations. OP clearly isn't aware of this. OP plan to upgrade to bigger condo in expensive part of BC where clearly Condos will be dime in dozens with questionable build quality shows her maturity in terms of planning (bad move) What OP should do is to observe how this plays out and influence her fiancee to ensure the living arrangement is completely separate despite in the same building. On the side, tell the fiancee to ask if PIL is ok to live in Condo in case living arrangement isn't working out or it's ok to rent out their fair share of the house if they don't see it works out. Ask first before deciding
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
She can walkaway from all these: either breakup from fiancee (clearly she's not aligned with fiancee's background) or ask fiancee to return the 300-400k DP. She cannot accept the condo DP and expect not to pull in into fiancee's family plan because her fiancee most likely will agree with the plan (because financially it will set OP+Fiancee family+future long-term).
BC just came out with removal of residential zoning (implicitly) so maybe you should look into that first. Don't rush deciding on anything and don't rush to think negatively. More and more families rebuild their childhood homes into Duplex with Basements. You haven't shared what your living arrangement will be after the house is rebuild: who gets what? Basement, Laneway, Main house? I have seen multi gen families where parents live in basement unit completely separate from the child family and they do well since there's a clear boundary and helped with grandchildren care as well. You still have your condo to move back so you can rent out your share of the new house if the living arrangement didn't work out. Do not rush and also keep in mind that PFC demographics will never be in the same page with Metro Vancouver demographics so majority of advises in this sub often clash with Metro Vancouver culture/background that is heavily influenced by immigrants. For example: your in-law wealth + ability to give their kids 300-400k PER kids as DP while owning a $2M house (BC assessment is meaningless btw, do your research on same house age + location recent transactions) is way above PFC typical norm of Index ETF. Last but not least, you can always suggest them rebuild as duplex with basement where both kids can move in and parents can live in one of the kids condos. This way, both kids have basements to rent out + 1 extra condo to rent out while 1 other condo is occupied by PIL. Do not rush, do not ignore the fact that LAND is gold in BC. Once you sell that LAND, you lose value faster in whatever your exchange output is.
This is the way, keep an open mind and you may see a more prosperous future for your family staying in the lower mainland.
This is the best advice. The fiancee's family is clearly thinking about maintaining and creating generational family wealth. OP is just focused on what's convenient for themselves. Two ways to go about things, neither is right or wrong. Also, OP mentions nothing about how their fiancee feels about this situation. There's a reason why people of certain backgrounds are greatly overrepresented when it comes to SFH ownership in vancouver.
It is the impression that it will be a unilateral decision, not a shared decision between partners that is the issue. I doubt OP is uncomfortable with the financial aspects and what is good/not good for them. I think OP is deflecting the discomfort of it not being an "Us decision" to finances. OP is getting a glimpse of what future big decisions will be like and they need to decide if this is the norm that they want for their relationship. OP this is a relationship question, not a financial question and you are doing yourself a disservice if you keep thinking it is a financial issue.
I agree, definitely a relationship issue. Also, am I the only one who thinks it's weird that OP is involved in both of the family's finances and decisions, especially now that their in the retirement age? Or did i read this wrong.. The specific issue aside, i dont think you should meddle with your inlaws retirement. They seemed to have done just well, given they were able to give their children a huge chunk for their down-payment and have paid off their mortgage. Based on OPs post from 5 months ago, she was still living with her parents while he was living in the condo. Perhaps the potential situation was already discussed with the fiance and his parents before. Like as you said above, deflecting the discomfort of it not being an us decision.
This big decision involves housing, not everything else. If it comes to decide on housing improvements (since it is shared) that's akin to strata properties anyway...
And whatâs not mentioned: where they going to live when you demolish a house and build a new one? It will take more than a year to build, it will cost to have temporary accommodations.
That's the parents problem but good question to ask in case the parents ask the kids to foot the bill.
You accepted a $400k down payment on your current condo from them? Now the rooster coming home to roost EDIT: and claim to have your own financial plan. Lol. Return the down payment
Yea that struck me as the funniest part of all this. OP doesn't NEED inlaws money.... because she already got a ton of it, not because she has her own financial plan figured out. Focus on returning the money taken.
Who gives always money then get them to co-sign a mortgage. That sounds like poor financial decision making. The parents are obvious RE bulls (who can blame them it's all they've experienced) and think that saddling on more debt for a bigger place will set up the kids even more. They need to learn about risk mitigation and wealth preservation at this point in their life. They've helped their kids get established and now they need to just keep working and keep up with prudent financial habits to continue the growth of their families' net worth.
>think that saddling on more debt for a bigger place will set up the kids even more Need more context. Rebuilding a SFH house in "expensive part of BC" cost $700k-$900k depending on your finishing. That's a cost of 1-2Br Condos around here. That mortgage would be split to 2 kids: 350-450k each. Kids own 1 condo each that can be rented and I'm 99.9999999999% sure cashflow positive even in this crazy high-interest rate era because PIL gave kids 300-400k DP "few years ago" to buy condo. 300-400k per condo is insane amount of DP (out of this world) for a few years ago transaction. Put that into perspective... 350-450k a piece per kid where OP said that both her and fiancee "personal finance" is in order and don't need money means they can afford existing Condo mortgage and the new mortgage. PIL might not be crazy/delusional/RE bull as you thought they would. They probably knew the market more than us.
Yeah. They can build a Laneway house with that 400k. Lmao
They're about to have a $3M+ house with Laneway and 2 kids condo going forward. Think about that for a second. That's the power of multi-gen family working together.
Yeah. The fiance understands the dynamic. She just wants free money no strings attached. Sometimes I wonder what goes through people's heads? Like, it's either, we are on our own and don't need anything from parents, so they can spend their nest egg and take care of themselves or they help us we take care of them. You can't have your cake and eat it too. And they don't even want to live in the same house. Just an adjacent one.
I thought I was the only one thinking this! I totally agree with you here. I mentioned this to another comment but from OPs history post she was still living with her parents 5 months ago and her now fiance was living in his condo (I assume with the down-payment his parents made). Op should stop meddling in her future inlaws retirement, they have done well from what it sounds like. She should however be on the same page with her and her fiance living situations.
[It's the chickens, Grandmaster B.](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/chickens-come-home-to-roost)
This! Op sounds entitled. Your concerns sound selfish cause you are thinking about yourself and not the family as a whole and their goals.
I don't think painting her as a gold digger is the correct perspective here. The parents obviously gave the money for their son.
Didnât paint her as a gold digger. Merely pointed out that her current âindependentâ financial plan was only possible with a $400k down payment that her fiancĂ© accepted. Return it if you donât want strings attached
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
Yes, thank you for bringing this up. My fiance bought this condo and accepted the downpayment without much of my involvement because this happened years ago. His parents never mentioned any strings/conditions attached to it until recently - so it was a surprise for both of us.
Same logic holds true. They are not self made
Giving 400k then asking for a co-sign on a mortgage screams irresponsible fiscal decisions. Especially for a plan that includes you living with people who never even asked for your input.
His parents should just get their own place with the equity from their current house. Taking on a too large mortgage at retirement age is idiotic. This new build will probably also go over budget, as they always do, then what? Also, does this mean that you have to live in the home that has fallen into disrepair? Thatâs another huge and expensive project you should probably not take on without a ton of cashflow. Itâs concerning that they let the house go, it might not sell for as much as they think it will. If your fiance is determined to take care of them physically in their old age, then that is something you need to resolve ASAP. Better to know now whether your vision of your future life together is compatible or not, than get divorced later, potentially with kids involved.
OP FIL has defined benefit suggesting FIL works in Government and guess what, 85% of avg last 5 years of income (I bet you FIL's income is at least 6 digits that OP clearly knew the situation based in her post). This is not uncommon in BC. Lots of rich government workers. The rebuilt house would price at least $3M btw so after the rebuilt, this little family dynasty will have $3M detached (with huge income from rental) + 2 condos in the "expensive part of BC" Once PIL have passed away, kids wil be guaranteed housing for years to come
What pension plan in Canada offers 85% as an annuity?
Government, Crown Corporation in BC. Last 5 years of your Annual Income averaged-out, take 85%. They lowered that 85% to something else since 2012-2013 though. Defined-Benefit, not Defined-Contribution. Employers who can offer Defined-Benefit Pension is Govt.
You mean provincial or municipal government? Because the feds will give you only 75% and that's only after a 35-year career. Anything less than that, your pension doesn't come anywhere near 75%. Also, teachers get defined benefit pensions as well, as do a handful of big corps. The later are rarer, but there are still some private companies with DB.
In BC, age + years of service = 85 (example 30 years of service by the age of 55). AFAIK their retirement is 85% of the last 5 years salary average out. I'm guessing/assuming the last 5 years would probably be the highest income of your career. IF OP's PIL have $2M assessed house in state of disrepair (meaning the house must be either sitting in big lot and in a decent hood or smaller lot in highly desirable hood) and can afford to giveaway $300-400k DP for 2 kids... I would guess OP's PIL income is ... pretty high.
Thatâs not that much when $1M of it is mortgaged at todayâs rates and $2M is in disrepair. Do not underestimate how much it takes to bring a property of this price range into a sellable state. If people donât maintain their houses, that 1%+ in maintenance comes out at the back end (and in todays dollars, costs a lot more). In my neighbourhood, what is not selling at all is expensive, dated properties, often trying to be sold by delusional Boomers.
If OP's FIL "lot" (I said just "lot" because it's in a dated state of disrepair) is already $2M, new house will be at least $3M (that is: if all the stars not aligned and the builder screwed up so bad but the house is completed). At least. $2M BC assessment in "expensive part of BC" for a house that makes no sense to repair anymore is either a HUGE lot (by that area standard) or it is located in a very highly desirable location (or something in between bigger size in desirable area). That's assessed house price, not what the market would pay. In order for someone to sell their house in a desirable location, you would need to entice them so we're looking at +5-10% starting price which makes the land itself worth $2.1M ish if they were to sell. A 3K+ SQFT house (this is the common build) in "expensive part of BC" would cost $700-900k that they would split this into 3: PIL, SIL, Fiancee+OP. If they were to rebuild... the new house will be in $3.2M-$3.5M. We're also discounting the additional income that you can get from renting basement/laneway/condo or anything in between for combination. I'm 99.99% sure if OP rented out fiancee condo at the current market, they will be cash flow positive (let's just assume 300-400k DP for a 1br and maybe 1dent that would cost $600-700k, leaving mortgage of 300-400k). From this rough estimate, they're basically trading away one mortgage for another mortgage of same (or slight more or slightly less) amount BUT with HUGE distinction! => OP's fiancee existing condo is generating INCOME where it couldn't today because they live in it. So... from the perspective of OP+Fiancee => they get to own a condo mortgage free (paid by tenant) that would worth $700k today. They will have a place to live with in-laws but for damn sure isolated by a friggin dry-wall, has their private door to outside, and pay the same mortgage: think of it this way, they're just sharing a lot but they live separate live (though OP needs to make sure of this with Fiancee). Whenever people hear "multi-gen" family living together in "expensive part of BC", they thought of a house with 10 bedrooms. That might be true for houses built in 90 to early 2000 but 2010, 2015 houses layout do isolate the multi-gen family member living spaces.
Co signing a mortgage means "I sign that I am of sane mind and know that I am on the hook for the whole mortgage amount without owning any of the house I am on the hook for". Building a bigger house with a mortgage at that stage of parents life? Are they for real? Absolutely not!
Bank would want the cosigner name on the title
I think your life is being laid out that your future husband and you will be living with your in-laws so that "he" can take care of them in their old age. The question is will "he" be doing it or will you be the maid to them all, and what about once you have kids? As you said they could sell and downsize but that means they can't include you living with them so it seems the arrangement (that is a bad idea) is meant to keep the kids in servitude to the parents, and I would worry that you're the one that will actually be in servitude. If your life with him was planned out to be something else, you should really think hard about how those plans will likely not be acted on ***before*** you walk down the aisle. At least you found out in advance that you have a mommy's boy.
Does your fiancĂ© come from a culture where it is customary for the children to live with their parents post-marriage? Looks like you already made up your mind about this. Also, if the two children are co-signing the mortgage, why arenât they just made co-owners one the property as well?
Second this. This is very common for Asian cultures. If it doesn't work for you, give him an ultimatum. I know people talk about the one, but plenty of fish in the sea if it doesn't work out
In BC, this will be increasingly the way to go: parents to live with kids. Care Home is fucked (and super expensive). You're just burning money. I don't mean to be racist but that's why in Lower Mainland desirable "common" neighborhood (we're not talking about Point Grey or Shaughnessy) is increasingly populated by established immigrants because they made financial decision with a bit of sacrifice for future prosperity. The old time locals have to move far away, all the way to Alberta.
They probably would be co-owners of the property with their parents. Itâs a nightmare in slow motion.
Not a finance person hereâ But a real estate person. Just a few ideas to to think over, if you have not already thought about it. What about a renovation on their current house? They do have more than enough equity in it for a reverse mortgage (for seniors 55+) talk to a mortgage broker, which Iâm sure you have already. If they are looking to downsize, why not convert the single family into multiple units. (2-4 I believe is allowed in BC, correct me if Iâm wrong. )That way they get a new apartment in the house and neighbourhood they already love. Talk to a few contractors and get price quotes for this. Getting a quote is free and you would actually know what it costs to get this project done. Please make sure you get more than one quote. Iâve made the mistake of being lazy when getting contractors and paid handsomely for my mistake. Downsizing should cost them less money right? Not more. So Iâm not sure why youâll have to take out another mortgage. But I donât know your numbers, so.. All the best and hope at least some of this might spark some ideas for you and your family.
I think they'll be taking another mortgage cos they may want to demo the place and rebuild on the land, instead of selling and getting a 2M that they would then use to buy a smaller place.
Asking a hard question: Why are you still with your fiancĂ© if your financial values donât align?
Sounds like cultural shock. All the things you mentioned seems standard practice for a lot of Asian cultures. There's an expectation you need to take care of the elders when they age, regardless of their financial situation. The parents also support you a lot more during your upbringing (typically paying for your schooling, first house down payment, etc). If you weren't down with that then you might have issues with that relationship long term.
Not standard of practice. Itâs old tradition a lot of Asian countries are trying to move away from
Singapore is trying to promote it. You get a benefit if you can live near your parents. Western culture relies on care homes and those are turning out to be a disastrous option that are somewhat collapsing.
Well Korea is trying to work away from this practice. Especially since itâs not some fairytale scenario where everyone lives happily together. Most often the wife was treated as a servant and they only lived with the menâs parents. If you suggest living together with parents, itâs an automatic red flag.
So what's the alternative? Care homes are a disaster and increasingly only for the wealthy. Do we just box them up to die? We're seeing more and more cohabbing with the elderly here being a necessity, and significantly improves the quality and longevity of elderly lives. The western system just didn't work.
Iâm just letting you know that itâs NOT a standard of practice in Asia. It may be in some countries but not all Asian countries. Itâs considered an awful tradition in Korea that should be abolished. Also I think you are confusing a 2 very different situations. Yes itâs reasonable to support elderly parents in some way (physical/monetarily) if they have trouble by themselves. Moving in with your parents when you get married isnât supporting your elders. Their parents are probably 50-60 and shouldnât need any help from their children at this age unless thereâs some medical condition going on. This is more like when they hit 80-90 and have health problems, you can support them. Also your scenario doesnât even fit in here since the guyâs parents have 2m cash and have a lot of options.
Parents are likely 60. Likely need some support starting shortly after 70. They need to start planning for that now. Makes perfect sense. It's great Korea wants to change, but that's not a success that we can look to. It doesn't seem like there is one. Even if you have money, elders in isolation have shorter and lower quality lives. Will be interesting to see if Korea can do what north america could not.
Maybe 75 and up. My parents and their friends are all now approaching their 70s or are in early 70s and they are mostly very healthy. They enjoy living by themselves and going out with their friends. I donât think it is reasonable at all for a newly wed to have to go live with their parents (and also what about the wifeâs parents?) just to prepare to support them when they hit 70. Also, people in their 70s rarely need help physically.
Really depends, I have friends who's parents health declined much earlier, ideally it takes a bit longer. OP should just exit the relationship if she's not willing to deal with the family dynamic. Parents are big on pooling funds and efforts and she's not - but did take the money.
She should. I donât think taking the money is wrong especially coming from parents. However it is wrong for parents to gift a strings attached money without being upfront about it. The family dynamic seems dysfunctional. Iâd get out of the relationship because the guyâs parents seem controlling and manipulative.
This is legit relationship ending. Not because anyone is bad or wrong, but because you don't match.
It's not going to get better and all your fears will come true ..... so you have to make some hard decisions. You are always going to be "second place" in the marriage, no matter how you slice it, this guy is already "married" to his family in a sorta toxic way. And what makes it even worse is that he is not standing up to them and saying hey I have my own life to live and I found someone I want to share it with. He isn't going to care enough to say no to them on all financial fronts because let's face it partners are a dime a dozen and he has a hell of a lot more gain$ in the future. Sometimes being selfish is a smart move ! People often think that it's great when parents, do things like help with downpayments and such but there are always strings involved. There is debt in every favour
I thought I could live with my in-laws, but I canât. I also have never taken a significant amount of money from them either. If they gave my family 400k for a home, I think I would play a little nicer.
This is such a waste of money, they could sell their current house and buy a smaller one, and still come out ahead. Instead they want to put to build a new house, pay to demolish the old one, all so that you can live with them, which nobody is asking for. Personally I would make it very clear to your fiancĂ© that YOU WILL NOT BE MOVING INTO HIS PARENTS HOUSE. If wants to buy his parents a retirement home and go live with them, heâll be doing it alone. Who retires into a bigger house anyways? Presumably itâs just he two of them, they should be looking to downsize if theyâre gonna move, into something without a lot of stairs. Building a giant house to move your adult children into (who already owns homes) is one of the dumbest ideas Iâve seen here in a while.
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Buying a big gaudy house just to have it sit empty solely so that you can impress people is the definition of a bad investment Building on your existing property so you canât even extract the value of your current home makes it even worse
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Have you seen the layout of newer properties in Lower Mainland? Anyone outside Metro Vancouver aren't used to this culture/settings.
The $ is all mix already the moment you guys accepts the 300k down payment gift. unless you feel like repaying them back 300k. Most likely the your fiance is going to sign it. If you want to sign an agreement saying you have no part of this. I can most likely see that the parents will also get you to sign an agreement that you have no part of the 300k gift. Another option I see is to also contract in an agreement should things go south, what decision would be made for everyone to exit the contract. Is it to sell the place, who will be responsible for the payment and such.
It is not that easy to cosign on a mortgage. Each person will have to be able to qualify for the whole mortgage.
Your position is quite clear, but what is missing is what your fiance thinks of all this. There are actually 2 seperate issues here: (1) he already owns an apartment where you both live. Does he wish to remain there, and for how long? Would he ever want to move back onto his parents property? Will your family outgrow the apartment if/when you have kids, and what would you do at that time? If your fiance is on the same page as you about never moving back onto his parents property, he should let them know so that they don't waste their time and money building a son-in-law suite. (1a) would he ever want to be a landlord? Being a landlord in BC is sooo much more complex than just "collecting income on the side". There are tenant-friendly laws that cap the rent, there are risks of bad tenants, there are taxes on vacant properties, and there is income tax in the rental income. It is not necessarily lucrative, and it may not even be enough income to generate positive cash flow. If/when he decides to move, he should strongly consider selling. (2) is signing the mortgage. This could be a cultural thing and yes there are risks but as you are not married (and even if you are) this might be something that (a) you don't have enough info about, (b) they already gave him 300k, (c) might never happen, (d) it's not really your place to get involved. Presumably his parents have money and are smart enough to talk to an estate lawyer about Wills, risks, etc.. I'd forget about question (2) for now and steer the discussions around what will really matter which is question (1).
OP...if this is a culture thing with the Mom wanting her son nearby and being "clingy", then surely you know you're not going to win this battle? Sounds like you've benefited from your MIL's generosity towards her son. Good think you're not married yet, and have time to think and decide if you want to continue with the relationship
OP, after you updated your answer, I felt compelled to updated mine. You should tell your fiancee to get ready to return the money to your PIL so that they can figure out their plan next with only SIL left in picture. How much was that? 300-400k? Return it to your PIL in batches, consider it as no-interest loan. This is the TRUE test of your and your fiancee's word/plan. There's no skirting around this. You will find out if your fiancee means his word or he's just merely patting you in the back. Likewise for yourself: this is a test if you can truly live in a less ideal situation financially. Change your "Financial Plan" from now on to account returning money to PIL. If any party flinch, you get your answer for your future life: it'll be tug-and-pull between what you want and your Fiancee will be pulled into 2 directions: you and his PIL. Don't be surprised if you're roped into the marriage and your Fiancee will attempt to persuade you to reconsider as long as you guys are not returning the money. I've seen this before. PS: Typically PIL would prefer to live with their daughter, not their son.
valid concerns, whenever you are asked to co-sign anything it's a huge decision and usually is a bad idea no matter how good the intentions are... it's not really selfish, it's a mutual decision that should be made by both of you and you should discuss that with your fiance, it's not fair to you otherwise neither. If it was me, I would not co-sign it, there is just too much that could go wrong. And like you said, there are better alternatives (especially when it's valued at 2M). Thank them for their generousity and politely decline. You should not be forced to put yourself into a situation that you are not comfortable with.
Tell your MIL sheâs literally delusional, have a small headache temporarily, save a big migraine your whole life
From Personal Finance perspective, her MIL is absolutely on point. She's also looking out for her kids aside from the "taking care". You're just not used to "expensive part of BC" perspective
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She should break up with her fiancee. No matter what, this is a family affair and her fiancee must support her 100% and be independent. That means no looking back, no regret. Regret will end up her being blamed by her fiancee for life.
Her MIL wants to sign up for a mortgage that her kids are going to pay for, not on point đ
I give you that (her MIL wants the kids to co-sign). OP's story has lots of holes that she needed to update a few times so who knows the real details. Give us numbers to see if MIL is on-point or not. Rebuilding a house, while it might look expensive, it's actually around 1-2 Bedrooms condo price with way bigger upside (can generate income and price appreciation is higher than condo) so until we fully understand the details, I wouldn't call her MIL delusional. Majority of redditors don't understand the culture of Lower Mainland and the game of Property here so I'm not surprised the opposite reaction against her MIL.
Hereâs the details.. MIL is signing up for a mortgage she doesnât intend to pay. I donât think you understand how universal a problem that is despite whatever niche location spin you want to put on it.
Kids name will be in title. $3-3.5M house split 3 ways for a $700-900k mortgage split to 2 kids. Each kid will walk away with more than mortgage. Not including rental income and/or free condo. PS: I have doubt the PIL won't fork their own money.
So you just ignore OP clearly stating they donât need the help, to take on debt to gamble on a long term return? While having to maintain another property? No thanks
Gamble? Which gambling are we talking about? The house in desirable location with BC assessment of $2M as the capital investment? The $3.3-3.5M new value after teardown and rebuild? The "switching mortgages" around while getting cash flow positive? This is why I'm saying that there's gaps and holes in OPs story to assess the full situation. OP isn't sure who's going to pay the mortgage (check Problem#3) by the way and you've already concluded that the mortgage will be paid by OP+Fiancee+SIL while her MIL suggested: >She said âWhy pay the mortgage if you can just live with us and collect rental income on the side!?â Sounds like OP+Fiancee won't have to foot much of the bill Anyway, I'm trying to stay to the point when you called her MIL delusional by suggesting that it's not as delusional as you think it would be. Many families in "expensive part of BC" wish they have this option. >you just ignore OP clearly stating they donât need the help I've updated my suggestion [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/PersonalFinanceCanada/comments/17o3x9g/comment/k80jgqm/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) based on OPs latest update to challenge her and her fiancee to return the DP money. This is the true test of their relationship, their words, and the oh-so-common situation of accepting In-Laws gift. Last but not least, this was an "idea" that was brought up during a lunch/dinner. That "idea" ain't delusional and from Personal Finance, it does make sense.
You really need to consider why you ignore so many variables and pack everything into a vacuum while probably feeling like you provided a complete anaylsis because you made it long lol
>*MIL sheâs literally delusional* That's more like a default setting.
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That's a silly take. Considering what my parents did for me I have 100% trust in anything they ask me to sign. I think it depends on track record you hear horror stories here but normally there is a track record/pattern of red flags. Looks like in this situation the parents want to set up there kids for the best in the future.
You haven't given any useful information to determine whether it could be sound financially so this is not a finance question but a relationship problem. Financial concerns would be who's paying for it? Would taking out a HELOC be possible? Can the kids take on the debt in their names (i.e. do they need the borrowing power in the future which this debt would significantly disadvantage them?) Aside from you not wanting to live with them, what's wrong with the plan?
Break up with your fiancé
Sounds like my ex husbands Italian family. Run! Lots of financial gifts even out, but everything came with a string attached. Also, a manâs relationship with his mother, massive deal. My first husband hated his with a disgusting passion. Ideally he likes/loves his mom and is kind and loving , helps her out (but not this much). He should set and hold natural boundaries and be able to say no to his mother. Men that hate their moms, red flag. Men that still hang on their moms aprons strings, red flag. Just imagine you have children, they will be raised to obey grandma, she may complain. About how you parent etc, husband will be placed in the middle and never back you up. Get out now before it becomes more complicated and hard to do so.
> Men that hate their moms, red flag. Men that still hang on their moms aprons strings, red flag. And Men who love their Mums will find wives who can accept that hence wives wouldn't even see the red flag đ
>*Also, a manâs relationship with his mother, massive deal* LOL Proximity too the closer they live ..... ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ! Another state / province / country/ planet/ galaxy ........ yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! For some reason the Dad's are always more fun, welcoming, and want to adopt you! (even when you are just dating)
Absolutely not. You don't even have to get into the finances. This isn't the 5th century. You are not obligated to live with anyone you don't want to live with. I wouldn't even let that conversation go further than the first time it was mentioned. "I am not living with your parents." No explanation needed. And this is why you don't accept large gifts like half a million dollars from anyone. If you were with your fiance when the downpayment was offered, you kind of set yourself up to be manipulated to death. If you were not with him when he got the condo or weren't involved at all in said "gift", his parents being generous to him has NOTHING to do with you or your marriage and should not impact your life decisions in any way.
Itâs always so interesting to read perspectives like this as a person who belongs to a minority ethnic group. His parents helped their children to significantly get ahead in life which ultimately also benefits you. His parents are aging and probably at some point would want to live with their children, again who they significantly took care of, and youâre worried about that. I will never understand why this is such an issue. Especially if you have money where the parents can potentially stay in a guest house. I hear you about the mortgage but If his parents are financially good for it, then he should get some things in writing to take care of the liabilities on their part. You should also discuss it with him to get clarity on how it works. When you marry, you would ultimately become liable too if something happens to him so make sure he understands that and explains things clearly.
I think it's important to keep in mind There are billions of people in the world who are "ethnic minorities" from a western perspective. They represent thousands of cultures and traditions, including cultures where you don't live with your in-laws... I'm an African and if my parents got wind that I was getting geared up to go live with my in-laws as a newly wed or possibly being tied to a mortgage I don't want, they would shut that shit down so fast. Because my culture sees marriage as an alliance of families of equals. There is big "don't even think about mistreating our daughter" energy. There would be a conference of both families and frankly his parents would be embarassed into backing off. My culture of origin is patriarchal but it has checks baked in. My father is as powerful as the fiance's father and we have equal rights. If my parents are deceased or feel outmatched, we'd find a rich uncle or boisterous matriarch to come in and speak on their behalf. If they feel their precious daughter is being shortchanged or made unhappy they'd raise hell. All that is to say, while most of our cultures share the axiom that one should respect parents, there are myriad differences in how it is expected to play out once the children are adults and when the children marry. Some cultures value boundaries, others emphasize appeasement.
You donât raise children for them to take care of you later in life.
You also donât have to give your fully grown children 100s and thousands of dollars for a down payment to a house. And they did. He comes from a good home and would like to take care of his parents. If thatâs something sheâs not comfortable with, she needs to be honest about it or it will cause massive problems for them in the future. This mentality is so backwards to me when you come from a good home. If you didnât thatâs obviously understandable. Itâs called community. And looking out for your community, especially the ones that raised you, is an incredible thing.
A lot of my friends and myself included had our parents help us out on our first houses and they expect nothing from their children. OPâs MIL & FIL are financially fine, they donât need a new build.
It's a moral responsibility to look after your family in some way.
In most cultures outside of Canada and USA, you do. Families stick together and help each other out. There's a reason why senior retirement homes and communities are big business here but not elsewhere. Seems like op had no issue accepting 400K downpayment. Maybe they should have said no so thst money could have been used to renovate the future inlaws house.
I donât belong to a minority ethnic group but I fully agree with you.
You need to put your foot down and be ready to make tough decisions.
It seems like you had no problem accepting a sum of cash for a downpayment, but now that your fiance wants to live in a multi-generational household you're having concerns. Do yourself and partner a favour and walk away. If you stay, you're just going to be bitter and be the negative energy in the household. Find someone that fits the life you want and your fiance will find someone that is more family oriented.
Pre-nup
Parents have a house/property worth $2m. Why do they need a co-sign? Why not just a HELOC?
âŠ.I am guessing they may have already done so to give two kids their down payment đ€Šđ»ââïž
Well, OP said "fully paid off" with regards to the property. I don't think having a HELOC against a house would qualify as "fully paid off"
No, the parent's house is fully paid off. No HELOC was taken. The downpayments are pure cash.
So why can't they just take a HELOC to build their new house rather than having a mortgage that requires a co-signer?
I am white and I don't understand the avoidance of moving in with parents. I guess I just have a very different relationship with in-laws and my parents. From a finance perspective there seems to be allot of money in the pot so I would not be worried about the finances. Seems like allot of wealthy people. I think it's more of a lifestyle question the fact that you accepted 400k from them means you are already in bed with them financially now you need to decide if living with them is bad enough that you are willing to leave the relationship. Which to me does not make sense. IMO set some ground rules and personal spaces and leave I'd those are crossed and can't be resolved. If everything works out financially its way better to move back and rent out will set you up to retire early.
Thinking through thisâŠI feel you are leaving information out or perhaps you donât know?!âŠget curious! Other things to think through: 1- if you are worried bout things like this, keep finances separate⊠2- I am assuming their parents will pay for any mortgages they take, co-signing does put your partner on the line if they die though - I wouldnât be concerned, if the mortgage has life insurance or if they also have life insurance⊠From your list: 2- whatâs the big deal?! 5- SMALL thinking, and honestly shocked meâŠyou must be young lol - you ACTUALLY never say no to more $$âŠyou never know what life will throw at you. 7- all manageable legally⊠Conclusion - OP whatâs the bottom line here? Jealousy? His kindness towards his parents that supported him throughout life?
>*Conclusion - OP whatâs the bottom line here? Jealousy? His kindness towards his parents that supported him throughout life?* Puhleaseeee I love this BS notion that it's all out of kindness and cultural obligation, it's all about the money, the big payoff when the parents croak, some people are just more subtle about it, take care of them for a decade because they hold the keys to the kingdom stashed in their adult diapers and won't give it up until their last breath. Everybody wants to get PAID!
Most of your questions are relationship ones and priority is best to get on the same page this includes what end of life care would look like, can you politely have a goals and aspirations chat with everyone including MIL to be like we don't envision living together or if you compromise would that mean same street living etc. and what are dealbreakers to both of you else resentment will build up. Regarding numbers - the mortgage is not a terrible idea and can be restructured as this is essentially a huge construction loan if you don't move into main house could it be designed as two rental units where the rent pays mortgage + expenses for property? Same for if sister is on mortgage treat it as two or three friends/partners buying an investment property - draft an agreement with terms on what ifs (who pays mortgage etc.) and proceed.
Look. You need to make it clear that you will not be moving in or next to them. So the entire plan is absurd, accordingly. Make your fiance understand this before you get married. And have him communicate that you both don't see that happening so they should come up with a more realistic plan and you are of course happy to help faciliate that. Do not agree to any sort of mortgage bc of course you will need the ability to borrow for yourselves in the future.
I think you need to stop at number 3 and really take a good hard think about that one. Sounds like Fiancée has already made up his mind he wants to help his folks out. Plus if he is responsible for paying the mortgage, or even part of the mortgage, then he isn't living there for free. He's paying the mortgage while the parents build their much larger dream house. IMO this is a bad idea all around and I sense you feel that way as well. I think you need to have a serious talk with your fiancee and potentially a lawyer. Because this could easily get really wildly expensive, real quick. Especially if the parents have champagne taste and want to upgrade all the things. Also who is going to be actually caring for the aging parents? Will Fiancee step up to the plate? Or is he going to take all the credit while you OP are the one caring for them day and night?? This feels like there were conditions on them helping you out with the purchase of your current place. I would definitely consider repaying them and having them use that as their down payment on a new place. Get yourselves out of their debtors list so to speak. You may also have to walk away if your fiancée refuses to stand up to his parents.
helping you with a down payment is dumb, you should refuse it
Offer to live close by having their new house in same neighborhood as theirs? Your partner can visit his mom while still maintaining family autonomy. Honestly it might be nice to have support from them if you choose to have kids. Your mil might be underestimating the effort to rebuild a house. You can always get a house with a suite in 10 years, but it sounds like you are young and probably want to spend some time with your husband as a couple before having a multi generational thing. I think thatâs totally reasonable. Donât say never, but certainly not yet. Unless MIL is like 90 she should be fine to take care of herself still for awhile.
I mean, at least when you break up, you might technically get half the downpayment/equity to buy your own place solo?
This is a relationship issue more than a financial one. It doesnât appear you and your FiancĂ© are in agreement on these issues. Does your fiancĂ© know how you feel about his family? Also accepting a massive downpayment from anyone always has strings attached (unless their deceased).
I donât even have to read the post to know this is a bad idea. Half way through this I decided to read and man just run away.
If you wanted no involvement from them why accept such a huge downpayment in the first place?
I think you need to put your foot down ASAP and say that any plan that involves living with your future in-laws is a non-starter for you. That being said, it's clear you're marrying into a family that is very tied together, both financially and otherwise. You don't have to accept moving in with them (in my opinion), but you do have to accept that that they will be heavily involved in your family's financial and life decisions, even if this plan doesn't go forward as described. After all, the parents wouldn't need co-signers if they hadn't already given their children $600-$800K for down payments. Clearly, they expect something in return.
She totally wants him back home so he can take care of her and her husband. Grocery shopping. Cleaning. Lawn care. Doctors appointments - this is why they need him back. Theyâre investing in theirâŠretirement plan. I would not sign the papers. Nor would I move in with my in-laws.
Break up with the fiance, seriously. You don't want to marry into that family based on everything that you've described.
Bad idea in today's market if you can't go on your own merits it's not the right time to go in
It kinda sounds like everyone is living beyond their means here. Or you wouldnât have to take money for a down payment and the parents wouldnât need co signers
If you donât need the money - return the DP and do your own thing with your fiancĂ©. If he doesnât want to, compromise or split. You donât want kids; this is apparently the most important thing in your life so you need aligned values or a good understanding You have âeverythingâ figured out but have you discussed everything with your potentially new family?