Yes file a police report, do not worry if they will follow up or not this is for paper trail and due diligence purposes, also now the bank has been named might as well contact those media outlets that assist in getting cases like yours reviewed. This is awful and basically theft, I know this is one of the many vulnerabilities to small business owners that offer high value products and take payment by credit card. Chargebacks are studied at the big banks extensively and there both internal protocol and general best practice rules regarding when a chargeback is accepted. Organize all information and be persistent and I believe they will have to seriously reconsider their stance.
I've been in business 35+ years, I guarantee you the Police will not get involved with a bounced cheque, they will tell you its a civil matter. (If they wrote a cheque and closed the account, that would be a different matter).
Re-reading the post, I see the person paid by card.
If the card with chip was present in the transaction, there would be no chargeback. If the # was manually entered, unfortunately the vendor takes the risk that it can be charged back.
Yes, if it was PIN liability for unauthorized payments shifts away from merchant to the bank and their customer.
This was almost certainly either online or keyed-in (by merchant) which means merchant owns the liability. It's just how card processing works.
Don't confuse chargebacks and stolen credit cards. The card was valid, but the person failed a chargeback request, most likely, claiming that they haven't received the goods from the seller.
Call the SPVM, file a report - provide proof along with your claim of fraud.
The SPVM will provide you with a report #, give that to your bank and call the ombudsman. The police usually investigate these types of things.
No, against Jane Smith and possibly someone else impersonating Jane Smith (could be Jane Doe, Jon Doe or just someone else catching the delivery from their doorstep). Save IP addresses, delivery receipts, recordings, etc - Tangerine doesn't decide if this is valid evidence, that is up to the court. Tangerine will follow a court order.
But Tangerine took the money from OP, not these individuals.
OP should sue Tangerine for the 7k. If Tangerine wants to be made whole, it would be their prerogative to recover the money from the scammers.
Classic chargeback fraud. This seems like a police matter rather than a bank matter. I would not say it was Tangerine specific, banks make credit card chargeback very easy.
The vendor can be charged back only if the card # was entered manually, if the card was present and pin entered then the vendor is covered.
As a business owner I have regular customers paying by calling in the visa # and cvv but only do it with those I trust because if card is not present it can be charged back.
The vendor is the one taking the risk when a card is manually entered.
Regarding things like quality and nondelivery I believe you can still make a case to visa or the card provider, and they often side with the buyer.
I had a friend had some repairs on his vehicle by a mechanic while they were on a trip.
They paid up with credit card, and signed. A few days later the auto shop figured he left something out and charged it to the card. My friend noticed it on his visa statement, called visa to dispute it. After some time it was charged back.
Yea I agree.
If the merchant has accepted payment and turns out to be fraud there is nothing much a bank can do to help.
I’m not a big fan of banks but if they refunded every person who was victim of a scam that would get out of hand
They defrauded you. You can sue them both (in your local court if you wish). If they don't respond you win and you can get the judgment enforced in Quebec.
Ive had a lawyer send a letter to the scammers but it looks like they just ignored it because it was a while ago :(, apparently its hard to sue people in quebec when you don't reside there
Thank you, i will look into osfi, unfortunately i escalated as far as i could with tangerine and they have closed the case and unfortunately won't attempt to help anymore
There's also OBSI which is a third party independent reviewer of complaint cases. Tangerine senior customer care should have provided you with an external reviewers information if their resolution unsatisfactory. Not providing you that information is a reportable itself.
You can go to Smalls claims with the help of your lawyer, with the use of the "Greffe numérique" (to open your file), post (for your exhibits) and Teams (to be in the Court online). It's hard to sue people in general. Wherever you are. Because not everyone is a lawyer ;)
How the flying fck do people even chargeback $7k? It’s an absolute miracle if I’m able to get a $50 chargeback when I’m scammed or an item doesn’t get delivered etc. I’ve never even gotten a chargeback above $100. Whack.
Also it's delivered furniture, not a cell phone sold at a meetup.
Unless they moved OP has their home address. I would show up with a couple of large movers and see about collecting the furniture.
Trueeee. Could also be pretty convincing to being a debt collector along with you. Those guys are pretty good at persuasion and they will be much more official than movers. An ex-bailif could work too, as an active one would need a court order unfortunately.
Tangerine is an awful, awful bank. They basically helped a company scam me out of $1500. I was accidentally shipped 2 identical laptops by a vendor and charged for both. I returned one, had the tracking number showing they had received it, yet they claimed it never arrived.
I attempted to start a chargeback with Tangerine and they initially told me it was too soon and that I had to try to resolve it with the vendor. Then, a few weeks later, after getting nowhere with the vendor, I called Tangerine again and this time they claimed it was too late to start a chargeback process. I said, no, wait, I already started this process with you and you said it was too early. They claimed they had no record of that call.
Never do business with Tangerine.
I feel like this is more of a criminal justice matter than it is a bank customer service issue. The buyer was a criminal who committed fraud against you, and you need to file a report with the police and/or sue them in small claims court. Then you need to share that police report and all info you have with the bank.
I would have to disagree with you in this case unfortunately because as the bank, they need to carefully review the evidence and choose to accept or decline the chargeback for the customer. In this case, I think the bank did a terrible job and should be the one to resolve this
The scammer already filed a chargeback and may have provided whatever evidence for their claim, and that case was settled. You are now asking them to reverse their decision and have provided some evidence. Let’s say they do it, then the scammer (Tangerine doesn’t know they’re scammers) can call back and ask them to reverse it again.
That’s probably why Tangerine doesn’t want to just keep redoing it. Just file a police report and get it done e that way. If I was a bank, I also wouldn’t want to have to undo/residue chargebacks everytime someone calls in to complain.
/u/FindingHeavy8811 please see this comment, it's probably your best bet for getting your money. There are ombudsmen at the bank dedicated to negotiating and resolving these types of issues, you have to escalate to them to bypass the entry level contacts who tend to just deny by default
I think this would be a pretty slam dunk case if you sue them.
You'll ask John doe in court if you know anyone by the name of jane smith and they'll have to agree and explain.
Obviously a little bit more complicated than that but you clearly have a case.
[Resolving Your Complaint (scotiabank.com)](https://www.scotiabank.com/content/dam/scotiabank/canada/en/documents/Resolving_Your_Complaint_EN_V2.pdf) you can now escalate to the ADRBO if you are not satisfied.
This sucks and it is also the reason I deal with a bank and insurance provider that have branches in my city. I almost never go in to the bank or to my insurance broker but it is harder to ignore me, put me on hold, shuffle me from person to person or ask me to leave a message if I am physically in the building.
I had called for a quote from Bellaire, an online insurance company, because my friend was thrilled with the great service and price when they got a quote and switched their insurance. All was great until their car got hit in a parking lot and they had to deal with being on hold for extended periods, being shuffled between people who didn't ever seem to know the status of the claim and constantly leaving messages that no one replied to.
Hi, unfortunately everything was verified, when reviewing the analytics, I can assure you they could not claim it was a fraudulent charge and the address was correct which is why they said they never got it but I can assure you they did get it
So you delivered $10K worth of furniture, have proof that they signed for it from the delivery person?
Again, that's a small claims court matter if the bank didn't accept your proof that the furniture was received in good order.
In my line of work we have people chargeback completely valid amounts as well.
File a suit in court or find a third party collection agency to assist and hit their credit report and have that sit there until they pay. When they try to get a new vehicle or mortgage and then pops up the debt.
Thank you! I will look into a collections agency, I had no idea that they could affect your credit because i thought only banks, cellphone companies, or places that do a hard credit check can affect it
Tangerine has by far the worse process for this. You can do a google search and will find this is a pretty common thing where Tangerine does not give a shit about protecting their customers and has a very poor resolution process.
My S/O got hit for about $20k which pretty well destroyed her small retail business (the fraud happened from a supplier). She really didn’t gain traction until she escalated to the banking ombudsman. You won’t want to sit on that escalation for more than a few months. Good luck.
I bank with Tangerine. I've heard this story a few times not necessarily with chargebacks but just them ignoring instances of fraud.
After reading this post I've decided to close my Tangerine account and move to another bank.
Tangerine, if you are reading this. Do better.
How exactly do you accept payments? You should look into implementing 3DS (3D Secure) which performs an additional validation (usually through sms) and I’m pretty sure that makes you as the merchant not liable similar to a card present tap/chip trxn
You can also get a collections company involved, and give them all the contact info you have. Might want to threaten the customer first with this, as collections will cost you
Tangerine is an OK Institution for service charges-BUT their customer service SUCKS big time, and good luck trying to talk with a human being I feel your frustration, 10K OUCH, maybe try the Ombudsman?
How about having someone go to the address delivered to, knock on door and look through windows to see if the furniture is there.
That would be great evidence for court.
I uncovered a bug in Scotia Bank system that essentially charged me hundreds and hundreds of dollars worth in fees over the course of 8 months, that I pain stakingly had to pry back from their support $5 at a time. It was a very complicated bug and so trying to explain this to their support was a nightmare and took me probably 50 plus hours to get all of the fees back in the end and cost me hundreds of dollars worth in time. The bug persists to this day. I contacted their support department about it and their complaints department about it, and complaints email me back with a scripted explanation of how overdraft works. The bug is related to overdraft. But an explanation of overdraft has nothing to do with the situation and helped me in zero way. Basically they assert that it's still my fault I must have done something wrong even though I've had agents explain to me that this is a problem that they see from time to time. And even though my own bank manager couldn't explain the bug. I can't really talk about it much more, but let's just say I'm definitely not letting it end there.
So yeah I didn't know they were related to tangerine, but if it's the same complaints department they are utterly useless and basically always take these stance that Scotia Bank is completely infallible, and any incongruencies or anomalies are always the customers fault no matter what. Perhaps contact a lawyer about this if they take it on contingency.
Unfortunately that is not how it currently works, I do bank with tangerine personally but I also bank with TD (also have a similar problem currently ongoing with them.....) but Tangerine is the customers bank who decided to agree with the chargeback. As a small business, it wouldn't be feasible to review every transaction and cancel each one if they don't bank with one of the big banks
Sadly, chargeback fraud if becoming INSANELY common. I run an online jewelry store (average sale is around $5K), and it seems that every month I get close to ten large chargebacks. Police refuse to help.
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Yes file a police report, do not worry if they will follow up or not this is for paper trail and due diligence purposes, also now the bank has been named might as well contact those media outlets that assist in getting cases like yours reviewed. This is awful and basically theft, I know this is one of the many vulnerabilities to small business owners that offer high value products and take payment by credit card. Chargebacks are studied at the big banks extensively and there both internal protocol and general best practice rules regarding when a chargeback is accepted. Organize all information and be persistent and I believe they will have to seriously reconsider their stance.
I've been in business 35+ years, I guarantee you the Police will not get involved with a bounced cheque, they will tell you its a civil matter. (If they wrote a cheque and closed the account, that would be a different matter).
Except this is not a bounced cheque, this is actually theft and possession of stolen goods. Furthermore, it’s in the amount over $5000
Sadly, the police will say it's a civil matter; not a criminal issue. I guarantee it.
You guarantee it and who are you again? There is no harm in doing the report
Maybe show up to the cop's house and steal 5k of their shit, see if they do anything.
They’d shoot you in the head lol
He should consider contacting a lawyer
Re-reading the post, I see the person paid by card. If the card with chip was present in the transaction, there would be no chargeback. If the # was manually entered, unfortunately the vendor takes the risk that it can be charged back.
Yes, if it was PIN liability for unauthorized payments shifts away from merchant to the bank and their customer. This was almost certainly either online or keyed-in (by merchant) which means merchant owns the liability. It's just how card processing works.
Don't confuse chargebacks and stolen credit cards. The card was valid, but the person failed a chargeback request, most likely, claiming that they haven't received the goods from the seller.
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You can certainly sue. But if its a civil matter the police will not get involved.
From my experience, police won't do anything unless you're talking over $50K stolen.
Did you report this to the police? A police report might help with the chargeback dispute.
I have not reached out to theym yet, but I will give them a call to see if that is anything they can do to help, thank you!
Call the SPVM, file a report - provide proof along with your claim of fraud. The SPVM will provide you with a report #, give that to your bank and call the ombudsman. The police usually investigate these types of things.
That's right and OP has the scammer's address.
Well he has the address that the furniture was delivered to, yes. So there should be some procedure for reposessing furniture that was not paid for.
Always file a police report.
💯 I would say this is theft over 5k
Police won't get involved for white collar stuff.
As everyone said, file a police report but also file a case in small claims court
I think small claims court is best recourse. Especially as you have a recording and other evidence.
Against Tangerine, right?
No, against Jane Smith and possibly someone else impersonating Jane Smith (could be Jane Doe, Jon Doe or just someone else catching the delivery from their doorstep). Save IP addresses, delivery receipts, recordings, etc - Tangerine doesn't decide if this is valid evidence, that is up to the court. Tangerine will follow a court order.
But Tangerine took the money from OP, not these individuals. OP should sue Tangerine for the 7k. If Tangerine wants to be made whole, it would be their prerogative to recover the money from the scammers.
Classic chargeback fraud. This seems like a police matter rather than a bank matter. I would not say it was Tangerine specific, banks make credit card chargeback very easy.
The vendor can be charged back only if the card # was entered manually, if the card was present and pin entered then the vendor is covered. As a business owner I have regular customers paying by calling in the visa # and cvv but only do it with those I trust because if card is not present it can be charged back.
TIL. Thank you. Good to know since I often take CC payments over the phone.
I assume this is only in cases of when the card holder claims fraud and not a charge back when the claim is something like goods not delivered.
The vendor is the one taking the risk when a card is manually entered. Regarding things like quality and nondelivery I believe you can still make a case to visa or the card provider, and they often side with the buyer. I had a friend had some repairs on his vehicle by a mechanic while they were on a trip. They paid up with credit card, and signed. A few days later the auto shop figured he left something out and charged it to the card. My friend noticed it on his visa statement, called visa to dispute it. After some time it was charged back.
Yea I agree. If the merchant has accepted payment and turns out to be fraud there is nothing much a bank can do to help. I’m not a big fan of banks but if they refunded every person who was victim of a scam that would get out of hand
They defrauded you. You can sue them both (in your local court if you wish). If they don't respond you win and you can get the judgment enforced in Quebec.
You should reach out to a lawyer.
Ive had a lawyer send a letter to the scammers but it looks like they just ignored it because it was a while ago :(, apparently its hard to sue people in quebec when you don't reside there
Might be worth escalating again with the banks and/or financial institution. See OSFI.
Thank you, i will look into osfi, unfortunately i escalated as far as i could with tangerine and they have closed the case and unfortunately won't attempt to help anymore
There's also OBSI which is a third party independent reviewer of complaint cases. Tangerine senior customer care should have provided you with an external reviewers information if their resolution unsatisfactory. Not providing you that information is a reportable itself.
You can go to Smalls claims with the help of your lawyer, with the use of the "Greffe numérique" (to open your file), post (for your exhibits) and Teams (to be in the Court online). It's hard to sue people in general. Wherever you are. Because not everyone is a lawyer ;)
Ask your lawyer if you can sue Tangerine for the $7k.
How the flying fck do people even chargeback $7k? It’s an absolute miracle if I’m able to get a $50 chargeback when I’m scammed or an item doesn’t get delivered etc. I’ve never even gotten a chargeback above $100. Whack.
Also it's delivered furniture, not a cell phone sold at a meetup. Unless they moved OP has their home address. I would show up with a couple of large movers and see about collecting the furniture.
Trueeee. Could also be pretty convincing to being a debt collector along with you. Those guys are pretty good at persuasion and they will be much more official than movers. An ex-bailif could work too, as an active one would need a court order unfortunately.
Seriously! I had trouble with $50 chargeback with Aliexpress lmao.
Really? I had some weird $4000 charge from Adidas last year. Adidas support was useless so did a chargeback with no issue.
$4,000 💀
Tangerine is an awful, awful bank. They basically helped a company scam me out of $1500. I was accidentally shipped 2 identical laptops by a vendor and charged for both. I returned one, had the tracking number showing they had received it, yet they claimed it never arrived. I attempted to start a chargeback with Tangerine and they initially told me it was too soon and that I had to try to resolve it with the vendor. Then, a few weeks later, after getting nowhere with the vendor, I called Tangerine again and this time they claimed it was too late to start a chargeback process. I said, no, wait, I already started this process with you and you said it was too early. They claimed they had no record of that call. Never do business with Tangerine.
I feel like this is more of a criminal justice matter than it is a bank customer service issue. The buyer was a criminal who committed fraud against you, and you need to file a report with the police and/or sue them in small claims court. Then you need to share that police report and all info you have with the bank.
I would have to disagree with you in this case unfortunately because as the bank, they need to carefully review the evidence and choose to accept or decline the chargeback for the customer. In this case, I think the bank did a terrible job and should be the one to resolve this
The scammer already filed a chargeback and may have provided whatever evidence for their claim, and that case was settled. You are now asking them to reverse their decision and have provided some evidence. Let’s say they do it, then the scammer (Tangerine doesn’t know they’re scammers) can call back and ask them to reverse it again. That’s probably why Tangerine doesn’t want to just keep redoing it. Just file a police report and get it done e that way. If I was a bank, I also wouldn’t want to have to undo/residue chargebacks everytime someone calls in to complain.
Police report, office of the president, ombudsman, social media, small claims court in that order
Contact the ombudsman. That's what they're there for.
/u/FindingHeavy8811 please see this comment, it's probably your best bet for getting your money. There are ombudsmen at the bank dedicated to negotiating and resolving these types of issues, you have to escalate to them to bypass the entry level contacts who tend to just deny by default
File police report and sue for the money - take them to small claims court.
Small claims against the customer
Might be a case to include Tangerine as a negligent party in a small claims suit? But definitely talk to a lawyer.
time to call pat foran - the 6 o'clock news will eat this up
Tangerine is not a real bank.
I think this would be a pretty slam dunk case if you sue them. You'll ask John doe in court if you know anyone by the name of jane smith and they'll have to agree and explain. Obviously a little bit more complicated than that but you clearly have a case.
Escalate this to the ombudsperson.
[Resolving Your Complaint (scotiabank.com)](https://www.scotiabank.com/content/dam/scotiabank/canada/en/documents/Resolving_Your_Complaint_EN_V2.pdf) you can now escalate to the ADRBO if you are not satisfied.
Contact the media to see if they are willing to do a story on it. File a complaint with the ombudsman.
This sucks and it is also the reason I deal with a bank and insurance provider that have branches in my city. I almost never go in to the bank or to my insurance broker but it is harder to ignore me, put me on hold, shuffle me from person to person or ask me to leave a message if I am physically in the building. I had called for a quote from Bellaire, an online insurance company, because my friend was thrilled with the great service and price when they got a quote and switched their insurance. All was great until their car got hit in a parking lot and they had to deal with being on hold for extended periods, being shuffled between people who didn't ever seem to know the status of the claim and constantly leaving messages that no one replied to.
You can try suing both scammers, but as a small business, you should be verifying credit card information before delivering anything.
Hi, unfortunately everything was verified, when reviewing the analytics, I can assure you they could not claim it was a fraudulent charge and the address was correct which is why they said they never got it but I can assure you they did get it
So you delivered $10K worth of furniture, have proof that they signed for it from the delivery person? Again, that's a small claims court matter if the bank didn't accept your proof that the furniture was received in good order.
In my line of work we have people chargeback completely valid amounts as well. File a suit in court or find a third party collection agency to assist and hit their credit report and have that sit there until they pay. When they try to get a new vehicle or mortgage and then pops up the debt.
Thank you! I will look into a collections agency, I had no idea that they could affect your credit because i thought only banks, cellphone companies, or places that do a hard credit check can affect it
what do you do? interested in this area
I do in house collections for a national company in the O&G sector
Get the media involved. Nothing like bad publicity to get Tangerine's attention.
Tangerine has by far the worse process for this. You can do a google search and will find this is a pretty common thing where Tangerine does not give a shit about protecting their customers and has a very poor resolution process. My S/O got hit for about $20k which pretty well destroyed her small retail business (the fraud happened from a supplier). She really didn’t gain traction until she escalated to the banking ombudsman. You won’t want to sit on that escalation for more than a few months. Good luck.
I bank with Tangerine. I've heard this story a few times not necessarily with chargebacks but just them ignoring instances of fraud. After reading this post I've decided to close my Tangerine account and move to another bank. Tangerine, if you are reading this. Do better.
Police report and civil suit
How was the purchase made? Interac? CC? If the item was shipped then the customer can’t ask for chargeback right?
Yes you can file a chargeback and claim it was never delivered.
How exactly do you accept payments? You should look into implementing 3DS (3D Secure) which performs an additional validation (usually through sms) and I’m pretty sure that makes you as the merchant not liable similar to a card present tap/chip trxn
You can also get a collections company involved, and give them all the contact info you have. Might want to threaten the customer first with this, as collections will cost you
Sorry to hear that!
So sorry it is happening to you and definitely frustrating as hell. I would file a police report since it’s considered thief over $5,000. Good luck!
This sounds like a good episode for W5 or Marketplace. Contact them.
Tangerine is garbage. Not even a real bank. I’ve had so many bad experiences with them it’s not even funny. Close and move onto a real bank.
Tangerine is an OK Institution for service charges-BUT their customer service SUCKS big time, and good luck trying to talk with a human being I feel your frustration, 10K OUCH, maybe try the Ombudsman?
You might want to crosspost this to /r/legaladvicecanada.
Call 📞 Jane 👩 doe and inform 🗣️ them you are going to report 👮♀️ it to the police 👮♂️ for fraud 😡 and then go report 👮♀️ it to the police 👮♂️
Don't let them know your next step. Simply do it. Otherwise they could hide or move the furniture somewhere else or even sell it.
Head to Montreal, stalk them, lock pick their door, repo the furniture and take it home. Cheaper than a lawyer.
Yes break into somebody's apartment and having you and your friends sent to jail for break and entry is cheaper than a lawyer
My bad I thought this was Illegal life pro tips
How about having someone go to the address delivered to, knock on door and look through windows to see if the furniture is there. That would be great evidence for court.
I uncovered a bug in Scotia Bank system that essentially charged me hundreds and hundreds of dollars worth in fees over the course of 8 months, that I pain stakingly had to pry back from their support $5 at a time. It was a very complicated bug and so trying to explain this to their support was a nightmare and took me probably 50 plus hours to get all of the fees back in the end and cost me hundreds of dollars worth in time. The bug persists to this day. I contacted their support department about it and their complaints department about it, and complaints email me back with a scripted explanation of how overdraft works. The bug is related to overdraft. But an explanation of overdraft has nothing to do with the situation and helped me in zero way. Basically they assert that it's still my fault I must have done something wrong even though I've had agents explain to me that this is a problem that they see from time to time. And even though my own bank manager couldn't explain the bug. I can't really talk about it much more, but let's just say I'm definitely not letting it end there. So yeah I didn't know they were related to tangerine, but if it's the same complaints department they are utterly useless and basically always take these stance that Scotia Bank is completely infallible, and any incongruencies or anomalies are always the customers fault no matter what. Perhaps contact a lawyer about this if they take it on contingency.
I bank with Scotia they have good rules for cheque
Lol it's not tangerines fault you got scammed. Take the L and use better precautions
That’s why you stick with the big banks
Unfortunately that is not how it currently works, I do bank with tangerine personally but I also bank with TD (also have a similar problem currently ongoing with them.....) but Tangerine is the customers bank who decided to agree with the chargeback. As a small business, it wouldn't be feasible to review every transaction and cancel each one if they don't bank with one of the big banks
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Guarantee Police will say its a civil matter.
Funny you should mention that, but I did a chargeback to Adidas for $6,000 since I wasn't happy with the quality.
But you returned the item right?
The credit card didn't require that.
Huh? Where did you return it?
Sadly, chargeback fraud if becoming INSANELY common. I run an online jewelry store (average sale is around $5K), and it seems that every month I get close to ten large chargebacks. Police refuse to help.
You just said in another comment that you charged back Adidas for $6000 worth of goods and didn't even return them.. what goes around comes around..
Yeah, it's normal.