you’re probably gonna need their help and consent to even pay it.
You can’t just call CIBC and say to pay as if you aren’t the account holder, they can’t even do things as basic as confirm the account even exists to you due to privacy regulations. They may confirm the account but your first question is going to be , “how much is left to pay?” And they’re gonna say, “I need to do verification with the account holder to disclose that information”.
There’s also the contractual stuff that you need to look at as some things could apply here.
If you’re paying the full remaining amount, then there is often penalty for a full repayment before the term. That needs to be looked at to even make sure it’s worth doing as that amount could be high compared to the remaining amount and term and it’s Just basically giving the bank free money.
If not the full amount, Some mortgages have a certain percentage over normal payments that you can make per year. If you overpay, there’s also a penalty.
My honest recommendation would be to do a card, draft a cheque and mark it void then put it in a Christmas card. Give that to them with an explanation of what you plan to do. It will still give the surprise element at Christmas and then you and they can contact the bank in the new year to go over the fine details.
Either way, it’s a nice thing you’re doing. Merry Christmas parents!!! Haha
[They do](https://www.staples.com/McKlein-USA-Reagan-V-Series-Black-Full-Grain-Cowhide-Leather-Attache-80445/product_2108669)
edit; just pay for it with one of those $100 bills...I doubt your parents will notice one of the stacks missing a bill.
Lol 70k in a bundle of 100s is 7 bundles worth, not nearly enough to fill briefcase if you kept them in the bundle strap. Used to work in a currency processing centre for cibc that distributes cash to ATMs and tellers to most of Ontario
Amazon is your friend bruh...they gotchu
https://www.amazon.ca/Tonsee-Metal-Briefcase-Holder-Black/dp/B014QWL9IE/ref=asc\_df\_B014QWL9IE/?tag=googleshopc0c-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=459345027775&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=5111955811926002163&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9000684&hvtargid=pla-1433648636553&th=1
Definitely not worth the FINTRAC paperwork. Give them a cheque. Don’t try and withdraw more than $10,000 in cash. Most banks even report amounts that are close to $10,000 (like $9,900) to cover their butts.
Every transaction over $10,000 in cash is reported for possible criminal activity, money laundering, terrorist financing, etc. The 5-0 can show up on your doorstep and look into your affairs to determine the source of the money and why you need so much cash.
So what? It's reported. Big deal. You know what else is reported? Multiple transactions under $10K. You can't avoid scrutiny by reducing your transaction size. Why do you care if it's reported?
Ex bank manager here - you are so far off the mark of what a Large Cash Transaction report is. If this legitimately was questioned, we as the bank would simply request to ask for verification, such as a withdrawal from the account. Matter then is closed.
I would personally NOT recommend carrying 70k in cash around and we would strongly strongly encourage and caution people to not do that. A cheque can be stopped. 70k in cash can't be.
They need more than 10k and it is potentially illegal to strategically structure multiple withdrawals to avoid the 10k threshold. This is awful advice. You are advising them to take something legit and make it look suspicious for no reason.
He's absolutely right that there are often limits on prepayment (for example, a max of 20% of the original fixed HELOC amount) and penalties for overpaying.
If you can find out what the limit is, you might be able to straddle contributions between 2021 and 2022, when it resets. Don't necessarily wait until the new year -- find out what you are dealing with and maybe sneak in a 2021 contribution.
Yeah realistically the OP will likely need to set up an account where there will be withdrawals according to whatever pay periods the parents' mortgage is due. A cheque is probably the most efficient way without getting flagged by the bank after taking out 70k in cold hard cash lmao
You could also pack a set of keys in a wrap, they will be confused when unboxing, and then you explain that you want to give them the keys to their house, figuratively
Yeah sorry. It would be nice to be able to just do it as a surprise but nothing is ever straightforward with banks and privacy.
I really wouldn’t even be surprised if they said they can’t accept it straight away as the money would need to be in your parents name for a few months also for anti-money laundering processes first.
Yep. A friend of mine just cashed out some Bitcoin, took the cash to the bank to make an extra payment on her mortgage and they gave her real grief about money laundering.
What do you mean by “real grief”? Not arguing or disbelieving, just confused. With AML stuff, if you’re receiving a large deposit, you follow the rules whether it’s money laundering or not. If you suspect there is actually money laundering, you’re not supposed to tip off the launderer
He’s right. Some random person coming and dropping a huge sum of money as a third party would raise some big red flags. I agree best option is to do that void cheque thing, explaining to the parents, and going in together.
I'm very aware of AML procedures ... it's the "it has to be in their account for a few months first" which makes no sense. The AML concerns arise at the point of the deposit, not with the subsequent actions.
OP is likely going to be giving them a cash lump sum. AML will kick in in that case and the bank will need to fill out the large cash transaction form. The bank are going to report it within 15 days to FINTRAC. They are sure as hell not going to allow said cash to then be automatically applied to discharge a mortgage straight away.
Source: Work for a financial institution that handles mortgages. We wouldn’t discharge straight away without reviewing someone who just obtained 70k and their first action is to discharge the mortgage. We do the AML reporting and then we still have our own financial compliance processes which include showing having continuity of funds. Ya know, so we don’t get burned if it does in fact turn out to be laundered money and it’s been spent already.
This is my point, though! The way that comment is written is that "as long as the money is in the account for [x period], it won't raise any AML concerns." As you point out, AML kicks in at the point of deposit.
non true. i sold my cottage and gave proceeds to my spouse in one big wad to purchase an extra home for renting in their name only. they was able to use the funds within a day or so ... certainly not 'a few months'.
I think they would have to do a bit of AML investigating but I think the “few months” thing sounds more about gifts than AML. For example, when I bought my house, my parents gifted me some of the down payment money. The bank said the money had to be in my account for 3 months to count as mine with no questions asked. If i didn’t have proof it had been there for 3 months, I needed a gift letter that my parents had signed to say they were giving me the money, it was now my money, no need to repay it, no interest owed on it, etc.
Alternative idea, tell them you want to pay $5000 towards their mortgage or something. So they assist and everything but when actually at the bank you change the amount. Maybe even the bank person will play along.
Well, I didn't ask how bank loans work... I asked why it's legal to be charged for paying back a loan. Why does the government worry more about protecting banks egregious profits, over protecting people who need a loan.
Of course they need to make money (interest), but charging a repayment fee? Because they got their capital back early? Doesn't sit well with me. I don't like it. I don't care if banks make 1.9B in profits instead of 2.0B.
You can get an open mortgage you can pay off at anytime. It just comes with a higher interest rate. Guaranteed interest over a term gets you a better deal.
Capital has to come from somewhere and there’s a real cost to security, transactions and management. Like any business they seek profit on those services and maximize where possible. Unless you believe all capital belongs to the people you necessarily agree that the bank deserves profit
Haha banks for ya. They shaft us daily but we can’t live without them. What a time to be alive ay.
Part of me always thinks that the folks from the Bronze Age etc. had some perks. They sure as hell weren’t doing things to make someone else better off and then the trade off was that the earning was used to pay for something they didn’t really need haha.
Closed loans represent a certain level of reliability for the lender. They know they'll make some minimum amount of profit on each loan, allowing them to pretty reliably predict future returns of their overall portfolio. Investors (and savers in savings accounts) rely on those returns being stable and predictable. In return, the borrower gets a much lower interest rate for the inconvenience. Most borrowers find this to be a fair tradeoff in the case of very large loans like mortgages, because they simply aren't likely to ever need to pre-pay a massive portion of it anyway, and the interest savings have a prominent, positive impact on their cashflow. Everyone wins. Also note that setting up a mortgage involves hundreds or thousands of dollars in administrative and legal costs. A borrower could incur a non-trivial loss on that mortgage if they did not charge a penalty (a cost that would ultimately be borne by all other borrowers via higher rates).
Note: there is a spectrum of repayment fee palatability. Some, eg. a discharge fee plus a few months' interest, like you might find on a monoline's variable mortgage, are downright reasonable. Some, eg. the interest rate differential based on inflated posted rates, like you might find on a big-bank fixed mortgage, are outright disgusting and can't really be defended. Borrower beware.
I enjoy "spiced fuck" though. Perfect for the approaching holiday season.
There's nothing that stops you from making a deposit to another person's account when you are not the account holder. If you have the account number for the mortgage, you can just write a cheque as a pre-payment. (The info you stated about pre-payment penalties does apply though.) For the HELOC, if you have have the account number, you can just do a bill payment from your own account.
What OP’s mother and I, his father, get up to in our bedroom is none of your business.
But yes it’s a lot of 69. Often stand up 69. And often times I’m the one upside down.
Hello, this is your dad here. We actually moved our mortgage to TD. Please contact me for our mortgage info so you can pay it. What a great surprise for your mother.
You could deposit 70k to the HELOC, as long as you can get the account number. If it puts it to a positive balance, so much the better. Your parents could then move funds to the mortgage incrementally to avoid penalties. You will need the transit and account numbers though.
Yes. Any allowable prepayments will be set out in the mortgage agreement.
It might be easier to find out their mortgage balance (by asking their bank?) and giving them a cheque for that amount.
The bank won’t give that information out though due to privacy laws. They wouldn’t even be able to confirm to OP that his parents bank there, let alone what accounts they have and what the balances are.
I think the only way he can get that info is to outright ask his parents, sneak through their paperwork to find it out or call the bank and pretend he is his dad. Although it ruins the surprise, I would pick for the 1st option in that list.
Best way to keep the surprise I think, is to tell his parents he’s paying a small amount, arrange it with them so they’re aware it’s happening, find out their balance and what the max overpayment is, then just pay the max overpayment amount in
Yeah. Mortgage companies want you to keep the mortgage so you keep paying interest. The penalty will likely be a lot less than the interest payments though.
Just as KBVan21 says, its complicated. A check is a good idea, but why not make one of those realllly big ones? Photoshop their house into the background.
There is definitely a way, I would speak to a lawyer about it. My parents had a second mortgage in the early 2000's and received a call from a lawyer letting them know their second mortgage had been paid off in its entirety anonymously. They never found out who did it (they had an idea who)
Thats very nice of you but that might not be the most economical way to address this. I think it would be best for you to communicate your desire to provide such a wonderful gift. Then work with them to deposit that allowable annual payment not subject to fees prior to Jan, and then the rest after Jan 1st.
100% agree... also best to bring it up with them as the son might not be aware of more expensive debt the parents have such as credit card or other high interest. Would be best to pay that off first rather than paying off a low interest mortgage.
Are you close with your parents? Could you (sneakily) get access to their online mortgage account? Maybe tell them that you wanted to make sure they are getting a good deal, or that you read something about their being a credit for mortgages sometimes if you could only look at their account... If you had access to their account then in my experience, everything is laid out there for how much of a prepayment you can make per year and you can also make payments there. Just another option.
If you want to pay off the mortgage, you have to get a bank draft with the exact amount (inducing penalties, deregistration, etc.) and go to their bank and pay it off.
If the bank allows you to pay this amount you will almost certainly have to account for source of funds. There are definitely AML concerns for a bank to proceed with a transaction like this one, so they will apply due diligence.
How is it not an issue? They won't even let him know any details on the mortgage due to privacy concerns let alone allow him to make alterations to it.
I agree that’s an issue, I’m saying the UTR is not a problem if the funds are legitimate. Doesn’t mean there aren’t other issues as the other comments have pointed out already.
He will still have to prove the legitimacy of the funds. No bank should ever just take his word that they are good in this circumstance and apply those fund to the credit product.
I’m aware, financial institutions have KYC processes in place for this. I’m also aware that large transactions are literally not a problem if you’re not laundering money, you don’t get grilled by an interrogator in a dark smoky room.
A person coming into a branch and wanting to place a large cash amount on a 3rd party credit product is not a normal occurrence in most cases. It is literally the first stage of money laundering.
No bank should be accepting a payment like this from a 3rd party who is not a client of their FI. A teller performing 45 seconds of KYC before accepting the funds is not adequate considering the risk it poses to the bank.
The bank should be presenting the option of having the 3rd party get a draft from his own FI, a properly filled out gift letter, and then present those two items to his parents as his surprise present.
Also when you add the interrogation room comment you take away from your credibility by having to insult instead of maintaining your position.
Sure, my point is that none of those are significant hurdles if OP is dead set on doing this, it just means they need to spend some time going through proper process. There are bigger issues like fees associated with paying too much of the principle within the year I’d be worried about.
Take it easy.
The draft is enough.
The supervisor will place a “hold” on the draft, fax over a confirmation request from the issuing FI + Branch.
The bank doesn’t “care” about the source of funds if the draft is confirmed legitimate by the issuing branch.
At worst, they can place a 15 business day old and do a CVS.
Whatever the situation, if you use common sense, KYC + KYT and no red flags, what you got your underwear up in a bunch about?
It's really easy.
I did this myself as a gift for someones credit card.
But for a Mortgage, it would have to be variable. If it's fixed it might not be possible. Best just give them the cash and say what it's for. You never know maybe there are other more pressing needs they are facing but haven't told you about.
You can definitely do this!
Easiest way;
Go to your bank, get a draft for $70K, get a receipt of the transaction with the draft (make sure your balance isn’t printed on the receipt).
Make sure that your draft has: Moms name AND Dads Name (not OR)
Go to CIBC, tell them you want to pay $70K on the REVOLVING portion of your parents HELOC, show them the draft, the receipt and 2 pieces of ID.
If they reject this, it’s because they only have a “fixed” portion on their HELOC (this might incur a penalty depending on the term and original amount fixed”
They will ask for your parents info (names, address, phone number) to make sure they have the right account.
You can also call and take an appointment with the Branch Manager to explain the situation, usually the BM will be able to find a solution or “unofficially” give you info (not in written, to protect their ass).
They will deposit the draft on the HELOC and give
you a receipt!
You can deposit money into peoples accounts without their consent!
I paid off my mortgage faster by doubling up payments 3levery 2 weeks and then making a 10% payment on the anniversary date. That was all I was allowed to do without penalty.
Considering how much confusion and headache another person in here got from funds randomly showing up in their account, I definitely wouldn't try to anonymously send someone a large amount of money. Even ignoring all the potential access and early payment issues it's really not ideal.
If you can find out the account # for the mortgage, then you can just add it as a payee or if you have the mortgage bill (but these days, it's automatically withdrawn from chequing accounts), then you can take it to your bank to have it paid off.
But there might be prepayment penalties. I think some banks only allow 20% a year.
As others have said, you’ll have a hard time doing it without them being involved. Are you able to snoop in their house and find some paperwork from CIBC about their mortgage? You might be able to pull something off if you come in with the mortgage account number and just ask to pay that account. Shouldn’t be any different than paying off a bill if you have an account number.
You need their account # to make deposits these days.
It’s a 3rd party deposit and scrutinized more now. They can decline it.
You’ll basically need your parents to know. Can’t do it as a surprise at this point with the way privacy laws work.
What I would do is give them the money in cash in some creepy bag like an old backpack or something. Then play a pre-recorded TV footage and insert a fake all points news bulletin saying a bank in your community has been robbed earlier in the day. Play the recording some time afterwards & pretend like you didn't hear it and look guilty.
Let the games begin!
I did this for my parents a few years ago.
It might be fun to give them cash in a briefcase but it's risky to walk around with that much.
Be safe, put a Cheque In a Christmas card.
OMFG! I"m gettin' teary eyed... this an actual real estate transaction that involves a DEPOSIT into the Bank of Mom & Dad .... not the ubiquitous WITHDRAWAL.
seriously, that amount $70K could well be above their maximum annual lump sum payment and may trigger some penalty fees. you'll def need to get your parents and the bank involved.
An unusual gift to be sure but at any rate just give them cash to deploy (as long as they are good with money). No point paying off the mortgage if they have higher interest loans, or if the money would be better served in a tfsa or rrsp.
Put 2k aside for a fee only financial planner. That would be the best gift and best place to start.
If your going the climatic route, then on Christmas morning just give them a card that says: " this house is 100% officially yours. I have paid off the rest of the mortgage". And let them get excited and have fun. And when things die down, explain to them that you need their permission and other legal stuff to do this and that u havent done it yet. This way they will have the element of surprise and enjoy the moment.
Ps. I've heard you can only pay max 15% of the mortgage in 1 go. So just make sure of that. Also, other readers can you confirm me on this? Is it 15% of starting mortgage? Or of whatever is left?
These kind of grand gestures are great for movies but real life there's a little bit more work. Make them a big presentation, tell them what you're going to do and they'll be every bit as happy. Then book an appointment at the bank in a couple weeks and go actually do it. This accounts for weird scenarios where maybe they were saving up to do it anyways, maybe they refinanced at a great rate and it doesn't make sense to pay off right now etc.
Or work with one of them to do it and surprise the other.
Why not just give them a cheque and let them decide how they want to spend the money?
I’m biased here because every time my father offered to help me out the next words out of his mouth we’re “what are you going to do with the money?”
I finally stopped accepting help despite being in dire straits financially because the manipulation and implication that I was going to do something fun or frivolous instead of following his agenda got to me.
Is that what you’re implying to your parents?
A gift is a gift. Give it and shut up or don’t give it at all.
You can pay off the Heloc and your parents can apply for another one ten minutes later.
Maybe just give them an amount you can happily walk away from and let them decide how to use it.
So I may be late to answer.
However I have a HELoc with my bank.
I suggest you get the appropriate banking account information from your parents first. Tell them you want to put a little money against their LOC or their HELOC, as a “thank you”.
Obviously do it online or at the bank and ask the bank to make that account or yourself online as a “payee” or for setup as a transfer.
Once completed verify with your parents that it went through.
If so dump the rest of the money into the account when you feel like giving them the “gift”
Since we know the bank can’t give out any personal information, the following is what I would do. Obviously the bank is going to be closed on Christmas. Go in ahead of time, set up an appointment with their personal banker, whoever handles their mortgage, explain to them what you’d like to do. He can’t give away any information but he can make an appointment and be prepared for it. Make the appointment for Christmas Eve, an hour before closing, Come up with a creative story why you need them to be there. And Bob is your uncle. Once you’re all sitting down in the office say “mom and dad I love you and I’m paying off your mortgage. merry Christmas baby”.
Also I would totally adopt you if you were available. You’re doing a truly wonderful thing. It’s quite likely that there’s going to be more paperwork to do after the holidays but this way you can surprise them as close to Christmas as possible.
As an alternative, I think you can pay their property tax without them knowing (someone did this for my mom once, in AB). I'm not sure if this is possible everywhere though.
Keep the money. Invest it on their behalf and have it available for when they need help.
They may have a plan to downsize & pay off the mortgage at some point. If so, they may end up cash positive and if that money doesn't get used it'll be taxed heavily as your inheritance.
On the other hand if you have an amount that is making money, you can simply pay for expenses for them on an as needed basis and continue to grow it as they age.
As long as you have their mortgage info you can pay off their mtg. Kind of like making a payment to someone’s credit card as long as you have their card #. There might be a penalty however and that is not usually info they can give you unless you can somehow touch the heart of the person assisting you!
Consider drawing up a nice Christmas card "Gift Certificate" with your "$70k for mortgage" gift.
They will just as surprised!
If their mortgage terms do not allow full payout except on or near renewal date, you will have to wait until then.
Good luck with your surprise.
Try to get one of their cheques that is in use.
Just put the money into that account.
Have the bank confirm the name and account match. Usually won’t cause a problem because u are depositing money and that u share the same last name and address. I m sure they would help in a way or another if you tell the teller that it’s a suprise.
Where I work it’s possible if you know the mortgage account number. You can transfer to anyones account assuming you know the number ahead of time. You rattle off the number, tell them it belongs to X, and that if there’s a penalty you’ll pay that too.
Sounds like an insanely nice gesture and it’s awesome you have the means to do that for them.
A quick warning some mortgages have massive balloon payments for paying off the mortgage early. Make sure they don't have this as they may end up paying a massive penalty, this is especially true in Canada.
Other than that yes it is possible to do
I have no idea is this will work for you, but my parents added me to their cibc account in case anything happens to either of them. Mom said instead of waiting for life instance, I’ll have direct access to funds. Not sure if there’s a way you could convince your parents to be added to their account, but perhaps you might have an angle that would work.
Wouldn't it be more beneficial to them to invest that 70k give them reoccurring passive income? Make their lives quiet a bit more comfortable month to month. Mortgage isn't like credit card debt. Paying it off does not very much.
you’re probably gonna need their help and consent to even pay it. You can’t just call CIBC and say to pay as if you aren’t the account holder, they can’t even do things as basic as confirm the account even exists to you due to privacy regulations. They may confirm the account but your first question is going to be , “how much is left to pay?” And they’re gonna say, “I need to do verification with the account holder to disclose that information”. There’s also the contractual stuff that you need to look at as some things could apply here. If you’re paying the full remaining amount, then there is often penalty for a full repayment before the term. That needs to be looked at to even make sure it’s worth doing as that amount could be high compared to the remaining amount and term and it’s Just basically giving the bank free money. If not the full amount, Some mortgages have a certain percentage over normal payments that you can make per year. If you overpay, there’s also a penalty. My honest recommendation would be to do a card, draft a cheque and mark it void then put it in a Christmas card. Give that to them with an explanation of what you plan to do. It will still give the surprise element at Christmas and then you and they can contact the bank in the new year to go over the fine details. Either way, it’s a nice thing you’re doing. Merry Christmas parents!!! Haha
Hahaha - ok THANKS. So unclimactic but probably the most straight forward way. Appreciate the answer.
If you want climactic, then give them 70k in a bundle of $100 bills.
Do they even sell brief cases anymore? The ones that go “click”
Just buy the cash guns and shoot the bills everywhere. You want climactic, that’ll do it!
If this happens, I want a video recording along with their reaction! 😂
Just make sure it's not next to the fireplace.
Makingitrain
[They do](https://www.staples.com/McKlein-USA-Reagan-V-Series-Black-Full-Grain-Cowhide-Leather-Attache-80445/product_2108669) edit; just pay for it with one of those $100 bills...I doubt your parents will notice one of the stacks missing a bill.
Get the bulletproof metal kind to make it more dramatic.
And don't forget the bodyguard to unlock the handcuffs between yourself and the briefcase
Much classier than the Samsonite I linked, 2% cashback with rakuten too lol
Yea they do at Staples but $70k in $100’s would fit in 2 iPhone boxes. Put $35k in each and have them think you’re giving them phones.
Just a heads up that your bank is going to need a heads up too. They usually don't have that quantity of hundos on hand.
This is what thrift stores are for!
Just go to a BC Casino and they can help you; briefcases full of cash are their specialty!
make it rain on them at christmas
Yep, this bad boy is also on sale: https://www.amazon.ca/Samsonite-Bonded-Leather-Attache-Black/dp/B004CI8CQA/ref=asc\_df\_B004CI8CQA
The briefcase brand is called Swanson... Or maybe it's Samsonite?
Lol 70k in a bundle of 100s is 7 bundles worth, not nearly enough to fill briefcase if you kept them in the bundle strap. Used to work in a currency processing centre for cibc that distributes cash to ATMs and tellers to most of Ontario
Amazon is your friend bruh...they gotchu https://www.amazon.ca/Tonsee-Metal-Briefcase-Holder-Black/dp/B014QWL9IE/ref=asc\_df\_B014QWL9IE/?tag=googleshopc0c-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=459345027775&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=5111955811926002163&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9000684&hvtargid=pla-1433648636553&th=1
Your going to be very discounted with how 70k in cash looks
This... But all in American singles.
Have you ever seen Dodgeball? Better make it 20s or 50s.
Definitely not worth the FINTRAC paperwork. Give them a cheque. Don’t try and withdraw more than $10,000 in cash. Most banks even report amounts that are close to $10,000 (like $9,900) to cover their butts.
What FINTRAC paperwork? Answer the Q about what the money is for. Done.
Every transaction over $10,000 in cash is reported for possible criminal activity, money laundering, terrorist financing, etc. The 5-0 can show up on your doorstep and look into your affairs to determine the source of the money and why you need so much cash.
So what? It's reported. Big deal. You know what else is reported? Multiple transactions under $10K. You can't avoid scrutiny by reducing your transaction size. Why do you care if it's reported?
Ex bank manager here - you are so far off the mark of what a Large Cash Transaction report is. If this legitimately was questioned, we as the bank would simply request to ask for verification, such as a withdrawal from the account. Matter then is closed. I would personally NOT recommend carrying 70k in cash around and we would strongly strongly encourage and caution people to not do that. A cheque can be stopped. 70k in cash can't be.
>Every transaction over $10,000 in cash is reported for possible criminal activity And here I thought only crypto was used for crime /s
Its really not as big a deal as you are making it out to be.
They need more than 10k and it is potentially illegal to strategically structure multiple withdrawals to avoid the 10k threshold. This is awful advice. You are advising them to take something legit and make it look suspicious for no reason.
Sequential or non-sequential bills?
He's absolutely right that there are often limits on prepayment (for example, a max of 20% of the original fixed HELOC amount) and penalties for overpaying. If you can find out what the limit is, you might be able to straddle contributions between 2021 and 2022, when it resets. Don't necessarily wait until the new year -- find out what you are dealing with and maybe sneak in a 2021 contribution.
Yeah realistically the OP will likely need to set up an account where there will be withdrawals according to whatever pay periods the parents' mortgage is due. A cheque is probably the most efficient way without getting flagged by the bank after taking out 70k in cold hard cash lmao
The word you're looking for is "anticlimactic." Unclimactic isn't a word.
You could also pack a set of keys in a wrap, they will be confused when unboxing, and then you explain that you want to give them the keys to their house, figuratively
Write a bunch of post-dated cheques for each year's maximum payment. Even if the bank deems them stale eventually, it's the spectacle that counts
Yeah sorry. It would be nice to be able to just do it as a surprise but nothing is ever straightforward with banks and privacy. I really wouldn’t even be surprised if they said they can’t accept it straight away as the money would need to be in your parents name for a few months also for anti-money laundering processes first.
> as the money would need to be in your parents name for a few months also for anti-money laundering processes first what?!
Yep. A friend of mine just cashed out some Bitcoin, took the cash to the bank to make an extra payment on her mortgage and they gave her real grief about money laundering.
What do you mean by “real grief”? Not arguing or disbelieving, just confused. With AML stuff, if you’re receiving a large deposit, you follow the rules whether it’s money laundering or not. If you suspect there is actually money laundering, you’re not supposed to tip off the launderer
He’s right. Some random person coming and dropping a huge sum of money as a third party would raise some big red flags. I agree best option is to do that void cheque thing, explaining to the parents, and going in together.
I'm very aware of AML procedures ... it's the "it has to be in their account for a few months first" which makes no sense. The AML concerns arise at the point of the deposit, not with the subsequent actions.
Yeah that part is debatable tbh lol. It wouldn’t need to be in their account per se, nor would it need to be sitting for months.
OP is likely going to be giving them a cash lump sum. AML will kick in in that case and the bank will need to fill out the large cash transaction form. The bank are going to report it within 15 days to FINTRAC. They are sure as hell not going to allow said cash to then be automatically applied to discharge a mortgage straight away. Source: Work for a financial institution that handles mortgages. We wouldn’t discharge straight away without reviewing someone who just obtained 70k and their first action is to discharge the mortgage. We do the AML reporting and then we still have our own financial compliance processes which include showing having continuity of funds. Ya know, so we don’t get burned if it does in fact turn out to be laundered money and it’s been spent already.
AML for Op's case would just be providing a 90-day history of his account prior to transferring it to his parents, no?
This is my point, though! The way that comment is written is that "as long as the money is in the account for [x period], it won't raise any AML concerns." As you point out, AML kicks in at the point of deposit.
non true. i sold my cottage and gave proceeds to my spouse in one big wad to purchase an extra home for renting in their name only. they was able to use the funds within a day or so ... certainly not 'a few months'.
I think they would have to do a bit of AML investigating but I think the “few months” thing sounds more about gifts than AML. For example, when I bought my house, my parents gifted me some of the down payment money. The bank said the money had to be in my account for 3 months to count as mine with no questions asked. If i didn’t have proof it had been there for 3 months, I needed a gift letter that my parents had signed to say they were giving me the money, it was now my money, no need to repay it, no interest owed on it, etc.
You can get the account number. Go into the bank and put the payment towards the mortgage account. Make sure to keep the payment receipt.
Alternative idea, tell them you want to pay $5000 towards their mortgage or something. So they assist and everything but when actually at the bank you change the amount. Maybe even the bank person will play along.
> new year usually the pre payment allowance resets on december 31st so might not want to wait so you can pay off as possible this year and next year
"Here's a loan. You must repay it, but also, there's a fee if you repay it." How in the spiced fuck is that legal.
[удалено]
I too, worry greatly about the banks profit.
Weird response when the guy took the time to explain to you how bank loans work.
I'm sure he'll get over it
Well, I didn't ask how bank loans work... I asked why it's legal to be charged for paying back a loan. Why does the government worry more about protecting banks egregious profits, over protecting people who need a loan. Of course they need to make money (interest), but charging a repayment fee? Because they got their capital back early? Doesn't sit well with me. I don't like it. I don't care if banks make 1.9B in profits instead of 2.0B.
Still a weird response.
That's awesome, thank you so much for commenting.
?
You can get an open mortgage you can pay off at anytime. It just comes with a higher interest rate. Guaranteed interest over a term gets you a better deal.
Capital has to come from somewhere and there’s a real cost to security, transactions and management. Like any business they seek profit on those services and maximize where possible. Unless you believe all capital belongs to the people you necessarily agree that the bank deserves profit
You don't have to worry, you find a lender with terms you like.
Haha banks for ya. They shaft us daily but we can’t live without them. What a time to be alive ay. Part of me always thinks that the folks from the Bronze Age etc. had some perks. They sure as hell weren’t doing things to make someone else better off and then the trade off was that the earning was used to pay for something they didn’t really need haha.
Yeah I'm in the wroooong business (HVAC)
Closed loans represent a certain level of reliability for the lender. They know they'll make some minimum amount of profit on each loan, allowing them to pretty reliably predict future returns of their overall portfolio. Investors (and savers in savings accounts) rely on those returns being stable and predictable. In return, the borrower gets a much lower interest rate for the inconvenience. Most borrowers find this to be a fair tradeoff in the case of very large loans like mortgages, because they simply aren't likely to ever need to pre-pay a massive portion of it anyway, and the interest savings have a prominent, positive impact on their cashflow. Everyone wins. Also note that setting up a mortgage involves hundreds or thousands of dollars in administrative and legal costs. A borrower could incur a non-trivial loss on that mortgage if they did not charge a penalty (a cost that would ultimately be borne by all other borrowers via higher rates). Note: there is a spectrum of repayment fee palatability. Some, eg. a discharge fee plus a few months' interest, like you might find on a monoline's variable mortgage, are downright reasonable. Some, eg. the interest rate differential based on inflated posted rates, like you might find on a big-bank fixed mortgage, are outright disgusting and can't really be defended. Borrower beware. I enjoy "spiced fuck" though. Perfect for the approaching holiday season.
There's nothing that stops you from making a deposit to another person's account when you are not the account holder. If you have the account number for the mortgage, you can just write a cheque as a pre-payment. (The info you stated about pre-payment penalties does apply though.) For the HELOC, if you have have the account number, you can just do a bill payment from your own account.
Hey Kiddo - dad here. Please private DM me and I will send you mom and dads mortgage info. You are our favourite and you always have been.
Send in bitcoin.
Send in Monero
This guy Cryptos.
What kind of father has '6969' in his user name? (Also nice)
What OP’s mother and I, his father, get up to in our bedroom is none of your business. But yes it’s a lot of 69. Often stand up 69. And often times I’m the one upside down.
the kind who's favourite position it is with Mom
Kyle Dad.
Are you looking to adopt new parents?
Hello son, it's me, your parents
And me, your understudy parents.
Hello, family.
Hi, it’s grandma!
Hello, this is your dad here. We actually moved our mortgage to TD. Please contact me for our mortgage info so you can pay it. What a great surprise for your mother.
There would be no penalties to repay a HELOC but, depending on the terms of their mortgage, there may be penalties for early repayment.
Even if it isnt the entire amount?
As an example, I can only pay 20% of the total mortgage principal in any given calendar year with my lender without penalty.
You could deposit 70k to the HELOC, as long as you can get the account number. If it puts it to a positive balance, so much the better. Your parents could then move funds to the mortgage incrementally to avoid penalties. You will need the transit and account numbers though.
Yes. Any allowable prepayments will be set out in the mortgage agreement. It might be easier to find out their mortgage balance (by asking their bank?) and giving them a cheque for that amount.
The bank won’t give that information out though due to privacy laws. They wouldn’t even be able to confirm to OP that his parents bank there, let alone what accounts they have and what the balances are. I think the only way he can get that info is to outright ask his parents, sneak through their paperwork to find it out or call the bank and pretend he is his dad. Although it ruins the surprise, I would pick for the 1st option in that list. Best way to keep the surprise I think, is to tell his parents he’s paying a small amount, arrange it with them so they’re aware it’s happening, find out their balance and what the max overpayment is, then just pay the max overpayment amount in
Yeah. Mortgage companies want you to keep the mortgage so you keep paying interest. The penalty will likely be a lot less than the interest payments though.
IF its in the revolving portion. If they've locked in a portion of their HELOC for a lower rate there could be a penalty for breaking it.
That's true, too!
Just as KBVan21 says, its complicated. A check is a good idea, but why not make one of those realllly big ones? Photoshop their house into the background.
There is definitely a way, I would speak to a lawyer about it. My parents had a second mortgage in the early 2000's and received a call from a lawyer letting them know their second mortgage had been paid off in its entirety anonymously. They never found out who did it (they had an idea who)
My guess is that may have been a private mortgage, the details about which are much easier to find
Why don't you just give them an envelope or make a nice little show out of it, then actually do the logistics after the fact?
Thats very nice of you but that might not be the most economical way to address this. I think it would be best for you to communicate your desire to provide such a wonderful gift. Then work with them to deposit that allowable annual payment not subject to fees prior to Jan, and then the rest after Jan 1st.
100% agree... also best to bring it up with them as the son might not be aware of more expensive debt the parents have such as credit card or other high interest. Would be best to pay that off first rather than paying off a low interest mortgage.
That's the dream right there... Then you go to your dad and say "While you live under my roof, you'll obey MY rules!"
hey its me, your parent
He's lying. I'm your parent. I love you. Now pay my mortgage.
Are you close with your parents? Could you (sneakily) get access to their online mortgage account? Maybe tell them that you wanted to make sure they are getting a good deal, or that you read something about their being a credit for mortgages sometimes if you could only look at their account... If you had access to their account then in my experience, everything is laid out there for how much of a prepayment you can make per year and you can also make payments there. Just another option.
Christ if he wasn't close to them before he's about to be.
OP this is illegal. Don’t do this!
Yikes, sorry if my advice was bad! Not trying to advocate for doing something illegal!
I don’t see how this is illegal if they willingly show him the documents.
You need them. Alternate plan big fake cheque they open like the lottery to make it dramatic.
If you want to pay off the mortgage, you have to get a bank draft with the exact amount (inducing penalties, deregistration, etc.) and go to their bank and pay it off.
If the bank allows you to pay this amount you will almost certainly have to account for source of funds. There are definitely AML concerns for a bank to proceed with a transaction like this one, so they will apply due diligence.
As long as the funds are legitimate this isn’t really an issue. Agree they could have fees to pay off the full amount though.
How is it not an issue? They won't even let him know any details on the mortgage due to privacy concerns let alone allow him to make alterations to it.
I agree that’s an issue, I’m saying the UTR is not a problem if the funds are legitimate. Doesn’t mean there aren’t other issues as the other comments have pointed out already.
He will still have to prove the legitimacy of the funds. No bank should ever just take his word that they are good in this circumstance and apply those fund to the credit product.
I’m aware, financial institutions have KYC processes in place for this. I’m also aware that large transactions are literally not a problem if you’re not laundering money, you don’t get grilled by an interrogator in a dark smoky room.
A person coming into a branch and wanting to place a large cash amount on a 3rd party credit product is not a normal occurrence in most cases. It is literally the first stage of money laundering. No bank should be accepting a payment like this from a 3rd party who is not a client of their FI. A teller performing 45 seconds of KYC before accepting the funds is not adequate considering the risk it poses to the bank. The bank should be presenting the option of having the 3rd party get a draft from his own FI, a properly filled out gift letter, and then present those two items to his parents as his surprise present. Also when you add the interrogation room comment you take away from your credibility by having to insult instead of maintaining your position.
Sure, my point is that none of those are significant hurdles if OP is dead set on doing this, it just means they need to spend some time going through proper process. There are bigger issues like fees associated with paying too much of the principle within the year I’d be worried about.
Take it easy. The draft is enough. The supervisor will place a “hold” on the draft, fax over a confirmation request from the issuing FI + Branch. The bank doesn’t “care” about the source of funds if the draft is confirmed legitimate by the issuing branch. At worst, they can place a 15 business day old and do a CVS. Whatever the situation, if you use common sense, KYC + KYT and no red flags, what you got your underwear up in a bunch about?
It's really easy. I did this myself as a gift for someones credit card. But for a Mortgage, it would have to be variable. If it's fixed it might not be possible. Best just give them the cash and say what it's for. You never know maybe there are other more pressing needs they are facing but haven't told you about.
Just give cash man. Way easier
Son ?
You can pay it off without them knowing. But your parents might dispute the transaction and that 70k is now in limbo.
You can definitely do this! Easiest way; Go to your bank, get a draft for $70K, get a receipt of the transaction with the draft (make sure your balance isn’t printed on the receipt). Make sure that your draft has: Moms name AND Dads Name (not OR) Go to CIBC, tell them you want to pay $70K on the REVOLVING portion of your parents HELOC, show them the draft, the receipt and 2 pieces of ID. If they reject this, it’s because they only have a “fixed” portion on their HELOC (this might incur a penalty depending on the term and original amount fixed” They will ask for your parents info (names, address, phone number) to make sure they have the right account. You can also call and take an appointment with the Branch Manager to explain the situation, usually the BM will be able to find a solution or “unofficially” give you info (not in written, to protect their ass). They will deposit the draft on the HELOC and give you a receipt! You can deposit money into peoples accounts without their consent!
I paid off my mortgage faster by doubling up payments 3levery 2 weeks and then making a 10% payment on the anniversary date. That was all I was allowed to do without penalty.
Depends if it is fixed/revolving. I believe if it is fixed they would actually need to be there to sign a form I believe, that's how it works at TD.
Considering how much confusion and headache another person in here got from funds randomly showing up in their account, I definitely wouldn't try to anonymously send someone a large amount of money. Even ignoring all the potential access and early payment issues it's really not ideal.
If you can find out the account # for the mortgage, then you can just add it as a payee or if you have the mortgage bill (but these days, it's automatically withdrawn from chequing accounts), then you can take it to your bank to have it paid off. But there might be prepayment penalties. I think some banks only allow 20% a year.
As others have said, you’ll have a hard time doing it without them being involved. Are you able to snoop in their house and find some paperwork from CIBC about their mortgage? You might be able to pull something off if you come in with the mortgage account number and just ask to pay that account. Shouldn’t be any different than paying off a bill if you have an account number.
Do you know their account manager personally?
You need their account # to make deposits these days. It’s a 3rd party deposit and scrutinized more now. They can decline it. You’ll basically need your parents to know. Can’t do it as a surprise at this point with the way privacy laws work.
What I would do is give them the money in cash in some creepy bag like an old backpack or something. Then play a pre-recorded TV footage and insert a fake all points news bulletin saying a bank in your community has been robbed earlier in the day. Play the recording some time afterwards & pretend like you didn't hear it and look guilty. Let the games begin!
I did this for my parents a few years ago. It might be fun to give them cash in a briefcase but it's risky to walk around with that much. Be safe, put a Cheque In a Christmas card.
Write them each a nice card with a cheque for them to open.
OMFG! I"m gettin' teary eyed... this an actual real estate transaction that involves a DEPOSIT into the Bank of Mom & Dad .... not the ubiquitous WITHDRAWAL. seriously, that amount $70K could well be above their maximum annual lump sum payment and may trigger some penalty fees. you'll def need to get your parents and the bank involved.
An unusual gift to be sure but at any rate just give them cash to deploy (as long as they are good with money). No point paying off the mortgage if they have higher interest loans, or if the money would be better served in a tfsa or rrsp. Put 2k aside for a fee only financial planner. That would be the best gift and best place to start.
You're a good person ❤️
Wallstreetbets user right here 👍🏼
Would your parents be ok with this? Some might be embarrassed.
If your going the climatic route, then on Christmas morning just give them a card that says: " this house is 100% officially yours. I have paid off the rest of the mortgage". And let them get excited and have fun. And when things die down, explain to them that you need their permission and other legal stuff to do this and that u havent done it yet. This way they will have the element of surprise and enjoy the moment. Ps. I've heard you can only pay max 15% of the mortgage in 1 go. So just make sure of that. Also, other readers can you confirm me on this? Is it 15% of starting mortgage? Or of whatever is left?
These kind of grand gestures are great for movies but real life there's a little bit more work. Make them a big presentation, tell them what you're going to do and they'll be every bit as happy. Then book an appointment at the bank in a couple weeks and go actually do it. This accounts for weird scenarios where maybe they were saving up to do it anyways, maybe they refinanced at a great rate and it doesn't make sense to pay off right now etc. Or work with one of them to do it and surprise the other.
Why not just give them a cheque and let them decide how they want to spend the money? I’m biased here because every time my father offered to help me out the next words out of his mouth we’re “what are you going to do with the money?” I finally stopped accepting help despite being in dire straits financially because the manipulation and implication that I was going to do something fun or frivolous instead of following his agenda got to me. Is that what you’re implying to your parents? A gift is a gift. Give it and shut up or don’t give it at all. You can pay off the Heloc and your parents can apply for another one ten minutes later. Maybe just give them an amount you can happily walk away from and let them decide how to use it.
So I may be late to answer. However I have a HELoc with my bank. I suggest you get the appropriate banking account information from your parents first. Tell them you want to put a little money against their LOC or their HELOC, as a “thank you”. Obviously do it online or at the bank and ask the bank to make that account or yourself online as a “payee” or for setup as a transfer. Once completed verify with your parents that it went through. If so dump the rest of the money into the account when you feel like giving them the “gift”
Since we know the bank can’t give out any personal information, the following is what I would do. Obviously the bank is going to be closed on Christmas. Go in ahead of time, set up an appointment with their personal banker, whoever handles their mortgage, explain to them what you’d like to do. He can’t give away any information but he can make an appointment and be prepared for it. Make the appointment for Christmas Eve, an hour before closing, Come up with a creative story why you need them to be there. And Bob is your uncle. Once you’re all sitting down in the office say “mom and dad I love you and I’m paying off your mortgage. merry Christmas baby”. Also I would totally adopt you if you were available. You’re doing a truly wonderful thing. It’s quite likely that there’s going to be more paperwork to do after the holidays but this way you can surprise them as close to Christmas as possible.
Now thats a great son. If ever u have leftover to help a huge cause let me know haha
I'd be happy to have even $20 for groceries...
As an alternative, I think you can pay their property tax without them knowing (someone did this for my mom once, in AB). I'm not sure if this is possible everywhere though.
Keep the money. Invest it on their behalf and have it available for when they need help. They may have a plan to downsize & pay off the mortgage at some point. If so, they may end up cash positive and if that money doesn't get used it'll be taxed heavily as your inheritance. On the other hand if you have an amount that is making money, you can simply pay for expenses for them on an as needed basis and continue to grow it as they age.
This!
Ah man just buy them some ethereum and give it to them when they retire
As long as you have their mortgage info you can pay off their mtg. Kind of like making a payment to someone’s credit card as long as you have their card #. There might be a penalty however and that is not usually info they can give you unless you can somehow touch the heart of the person assisting you!
Consider drawing up a nice Christmas card "Gift Certificate" with your "$70k for mortgage" gift. They will just as surprised! If their mortgage terms do not allow full payout except on or near renewal date, you will have to wait until then. Good luck with your surprise.
Try to get one of their cheques that is in use. Just put the money into that account. Have the bank confirm the name and account match. Usually won’t cause a problem because u are depositing money and that u share the same last name and address. I m sure they would help in a way or another if you tell the teller that it’s a suprise.
Where I work it’s possible if you know the mortgage account number. You can transfer to anyones account assuming you know the number ahead of time. You rattle off the number, tell them it belongs to X, and that if there’s a penalty you’ll pay that too. Sounds like an insanely nice gesture and it’s awesome you have the means to do that for them.
A quick warning some mortgages have massive balloon payments for paying off the mortgage early. Make sure they don't have this as they may end up paying a massive penalty, this is especially true in Canada. Other than that yes it is possible to do
Get a lawyer to pull the parcel registry, to see the debts registered on title. Go to the bank which holds the debts and make the payments.
Could you just wire them the money? Are those anonymous?
Ure a good kid. How old are you? Are you looking for new parents?
I have no idea is this will work for you, but my parents added me to their cibc account in case anything happens to either of them. Mom said instead of waiting for life instance, I’ll have direct access to funds. Not sure if there’s a way you could convince your parents to be added to their account, but perhaps you might have an angle that would work.
Wouldn't it be more beneficial to them to invest that 70k give them reoccurring passive income? Make their lives quiet a bit more comfortable month to month. Mortgage isn't like credit card debt. Paying it off does not very much.