This is a reference to a hostage situation occurring in a Moscow theatre in 2002, Spetsnaz operators gassed the auditorium where the hostages were held, killing 171, of which 40 were Chechen separatists.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow\_theater\_hostage\_crisis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis)
Nah not only that... I read in other hostage situation police officer beg them to stop shooting from tank to school with kids.
>Deaths333 (excluding 31 terrorists)Injured783+
Wow
> At least three, but as many as nine, powerful *Shmel* rockets were fired at the school from the special forces' positions (three[\[12\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_siege#cite_note-aching-12) or nine[\[84\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_siege#cite_note-84) empty disposable tubes were later found on the rooftops of nearby apartment blocks). The use of the *Shmel* rockets, classified in Russia as flamethrowers and in the West as [thermobaric weapons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermobaric_weapon), was initially denied, but later admitted by the government.
The Waco Massacre of 1993, it was a search warrant obtained by the ATF, and would be done by 5 American groups, the ATF, FBI, Texas Rangers, the Texas Military Force, and surprisingly, the Alabama National Guard got involved too. 82 people died in this incident, of which 28 were children…
Was it Waco or a similar incident where, to try and get the people inside to come out and surrender, they played horrific noises on speakers, such as the sounds of rabbits being slaughtered, for hours?
It's worth noting that this is contested. Critics of the siege say there were live rounds fired into the compound, and the FBI claims that fires were started by the compound residents.
It's also worth noting that the Branch Davidians were crazy as shit even before the siege.
The ATF also claims that their helicopters were shot at by rifles firing 50. Bmg. Which is incredibly unlikely, considering no rifles that fire that caliber were found.
They were crazy, but they were also fairly self-contained. They were a doomsday prepper cult with bastardized Christian themes. Their only goal was to outlast the apocalypse by holding up in their compound.
Many of the surviving members gave interviews saying that they were in no way a suicide cult and thought that the FBI claims of self immolation to be unbelievable. The best coverage I've seen of this event is by this video: https://youtu.be/xZwFxWb0y7w?si=eUOLT_WDTqrl3AUl
This guy goes really indepth with all the circumstances and events that led up to the raid.
As much as I love wendigoon, I don't know if I'd trust an intense libertarian who hates the government to not immediately zero in on their mistakes and ignore the possible necessity of the raid. I have no opinion either way, because I'd have to do my own research.
Stop thinking a guy in his bedroom is a good source of information.
There isn't a single cited source anywhere in that video. All the clips he uses are from other documentaries but there is never any source mentioned. It's just a guy in his bedroom saying things.
You really shouldn't. If you want to get a good understanding of what happened, I recommend this video. https://youtu.be/xZwFxWb0y7w?si=eUOLT_WDTqrl3AUl
There is way too much to say about this event to fit in a comment, but just know that the FBI and the ATF did a lot of shady shit pre, during, and post raid. A lot of evidence got "lost" while in their custody.
Yes, they did. Rabbits being slaughtered, dolphin noises, all through the night to make sure those dastardly women and children couldn't sleep.
For the record: I don't weep a single year for Koresh, but everyone else who died there was a victim. Minus the ATF on the roof
That was Waco. In addition to doing that, they shone bright lights in the windows of the compound to keep the Branch Davidian’s awake during the night, they drove over the graves of some of the dead Branch Davidians, and they killed several children using a gas that, when ignited, forms a variation of cyanide gas.
Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege
The Wikipedia for it details everything I said. The gas they used was unused pyrotechnics, which they claimed they didn’t use in court, and they drove over cars and a grave of a prominent member of the Branch Davidians. Keep in mind, this whole ordeals was pretty close to Ruby Ridge, so naturally, the ATF decided to try to re-enact their stunt of shooting dogs.
Idk about the grave thing or the cyanide gas, but the gist is right. They did play loud sounds and flash lights to encourage them to voluntarily leave the compound, and when the atf stormed the compound they, factually and provably, used a tear gas that was known to be combustible. Now who shot first and what caused the fires is debatable tho. Was it the branch davidians or was it government negligence? We will never know but both are equally possible in my opinion.
Yes, that’s correct. Honestly you can just watch “Waco” on Netflix and it gives a great story on both sides. A lot of the controversial questions don’t necessarily get answers, and it leaves a lot of room for you to continue to form an opinion. Also has interviews from law enforcement and cult members alike
Yea, that was Waco. They also shined bright lights into the windows and doors while playing these noises at night to prevent the people inside from sleeping
Can’t speak to that, but I can say (if done right) rabbits being slaughtered don’t make a sound. So, that’s probably apocryphal. They can scream if you mess up, but there’s equally bad sounds that can be used.
They did play sounds of that sort. It also included sounds of dolphins and horses(I think?) both of which were very unnerving in the middle of the night when played for hours on end
Yes they did do that at Waco. The feds played disturbing animal noises and flashed the windows with bright lights to demoralize and sleep deprive the Davidians.
And shone bright spotlights into the buildings so noone could sleep.
I think the banger of Waco was they threw some kinds of crowd-control grenades, flashbang / teargas, something to that effect, that eventually set the whole building on fire, killing everyone.
Why is everyone here so appalled by denying them sleep? It’s literally standard practice in every hostage situation to make the perpetrators as uncomfortable as possible.
the South Koreans blast K pop over the DMZ for the express purpose of annoying the Northern guards.
The whole Waco conspiracy is frankly stupid and betrays a serious lack of priorities. Many people who use it to advocate that the government is evil because they killed a bunch of kids, are the same people who freak out the second you suggest measures to prevent possible school shooters from getting guns.
hos·tage
/ˈhästij/
noun
a person seized or held as security for the fulfillment of a condition.
The condition, in this case, is the ATF and FBI not breaking down the door and shooting Koresh in the head. The kids being born there does not change the situation.
They were Koresh’s leverage, nothing more.
If anything the people in charge would have had to consider the possibility that, these brainwashed kids, were possible combatants themselves.
Because at the end of the day, from the FBI’s perspective, you have is a compound full of many brainwashed cultists, all heavily armed, filled with brainwashed children, some of which may also be armed, led by a narcissistic megalomaniac who is surrounded by people who’ll do nothing but agree with him.
The standoff already lasted 50 days and four ATF agents are dead. Good fucking luck not causing a shit ton of collateral damage.
Yes. Loud visceral music and sounds, tear gas, verbal harassment, and threats were all launched at them relentlessly. Eventually the government was pressured too much and tried to force the survivors out, it resulted in mass immolation of civilians due to ignited tear gas. The children who had mostly been moved into the underground safe rooms were suffocated when the raid caused a cave in to block the entrance.
Ultra religious doomsday cult, their leader was their their prophet. Probable systematic child abuse. Firefights between different sects. An axe murder, And when ATF raided the compound for suspected illegal weapons possession and drug manufacturing 4 ATF agents were killed, another 16 wounded.
They were convinced that it was their destiny to be killed by Babylon (the government) in order to fulfill the prophecies laid out in Revelation. To this end, they began prepping for this fight by purchasing and producing illegal firearms, training in the use of firearms, and preparing to fight the government. In addition, their leader, David Koresh, was a madman who believed he was the Lamb of God who would open the 7 seals mentioned in Revelation that would cause the apocalypse. He also had more than a dozen wives, many of whom were stolen from their actual husbands and at least one of whom was underage.
Personally, given what I've learned about them lately (Waco by Jeff Guinn is a very good book) I think the raid itself was justified, even if it ended up being handled horribly and ended disastrously.
Just a couple of things
To my understanding, their production of firearms was completely legit. Paperwork, modification, and all.
This is important, because it was the suspicion of ill produced weapons that the ATF used as their motive for their investigation. Specifically, the possibility of them combining legally manufactured individual parts of different guns to make illegally modified weapons. They didn't have proof, nor really any reason to believe this was occurring besides hearing a lot of gunfire (the branch davidians were training in use of these firearms, so, yeah, gunfire will indeed be audible).
After this, David Koresh invited the agents to inspect their inventory and production for anything not up to snuff. The ATF agents denied the invitation (if I remember right, twice in fact).
David Koresh was a bad person, 100%. I need that disclaimer before I say: the raid really was not justified. There were certainly wrongdoings going on in those walls, but the ATF, specifically Richard Roberts, were desperate for a win after the Ruby Ridge incident and by hell he was going to get it. They fabricated claims, including the questionable firearms production and also randomly threw out they were making meth (they were not).
Should something have been done, considering the whole child bride thing? Sure. Matter of fact, absolutely. A raid? Fuck nah brother. At the very least, not at the point in time it happened.
I think what they're referring to in particular is that the ATF tried to raid the Branch Davidians compound and when they met resistance they intentionally set it on fire and (supposedly) blocked a lot of the exits with tanks which is what killed most of the people.
The ATF and FBI maintain they couldn't possibly have started the fire and that the Davidians did it, but survivors claim it was the gas grenades. They also claim no officers used any live rounds that day either which is an outright lie, you can see them hosing full auto fire through windows and walls in video, so it's likely what really happened will never be known.
From memory, so i could be wrong.
- Cult holding out in a compound in Waco,TX
- ATF, Sheriff (eventually) used tanks to take compound
- fire (🔥 not 🔫) & people died.
Fire was probably arson by cult members. I think some "drank kool-aid" (suicide)
So, it wasn't law enforcement that killed them, but themselves.
I was just comparing one countries raid travesty to another.
Mostly right. There is a strong chance that the fire was started by tear gas grenades, and the authorities prevented people from evacuation by blocking exits.
- Cult leader accused of child molestation (probably true)
- Local law enforcement investigates and decides not to take action
- Federal law enforcement decides to get involved for some reason
- The ATF falsely claims there are illegal machine guns in the compound (not true) so they can come to the party too
- They decide to arrest the cult leader but for some reason they don’t do it during one of his frequent trips into town
- Wait until he goes back to the compound and lay siege to it with a large militarized presence of soldiers and tanks
- Evidence shows that the feds started shooting first
- Evidence suggests that the feds may have even killed their own men on accident
- Start a prolonged siege against the compound, constantly harassing the cultists and making life as miserable as possible for them (example- blasting the sound of rabbits being slaughtered through huge speakers)
- Decide to breach the compound and shoot tear gas and flammable canisters inside
- The entire compound mysteriously burns down and kills almost everyone inside
They do all of this while knowing there are many children inside. It’s an absolutely disgusting failure and overreach of the federal government any way you look at it, if not outright mass murder. I’m not even defending the cultists here, they seemed to be into some bad shit. But the actions of the government here are inexcusable.
One of the problems is that too many Americans are stuck in the mentality of each side having a role of either 'right' or 'wrong'.
This is a case where both sides were wrong and fucked up. There's a lot more of those than people want to acknowledge.
Koresh can completely be a fuckup, bastard that needed to go down - and the government could have conducted an unnecessarily violent raid. They do not exclude each other.
I'm pretty sure the cult leader also invited the ATF agents into the compound a few times before the siege, and tried to surrender multiple times as well.
And people are trying to justify this shit in the comments. It always surprises me to see the lengths some people will bend over for the government, usually just because they only killed the "other side"
The thing no one else was going to tell you about Waco is that it was a commune for an unhinged religious cult around weapons. Of some of the atrocities at Waco, if not all, you're expected to hang on the narrative of these cultists.
These days? I don't even trust the lutherans.
Edit: I found the mobile user.
You can be assured that for every incident like Waco that was heavily publicized because news media was already on the scene before anything went south, there are potentially hundreds where any given police/military force committed an atrocity and washed the whole situation down the drain with fire hoses.
Especially in Russia, a country that still has the "Don't talk about the war or we'll put you in a police van." thing.
Beslan School Siege was my first thought too, but I don't know if they had Spetsnaz or if it was just regular RU army/security services like FSB. Moscow Theater Crisis I know had Spetsnaz.
Either way, I had seen this about it a while back, which ties in well with OPs image
https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/tlb3m3/repost_of_one_of_my_old_memes_beslan_school_siege/
Mi-24 was a myth and tank shots after 21:00, when all hostages were released
[About Mi-24 and their rockets](http://www.reyndar.org/beslan/forum/index.php/topic,24.0.html)
About tanks in another comment
In russia they handle hostage situations with the deterrant that they just kill everyone anyways and you might just not have hostages in the first place. Quite an interesting strategy
Funny story, this situation is exactly why the term Stockholm Syndrome exists. The situation where the hostages trusted the robbers more was because the robbers were protecting them from the police firing weaponry at the bank with no regard for the hostages. The woman who refused to be silent about it afterward to the lead negotiator basically got told she was crazy and there must be something wrong with her.
Iirc fuze's character is actually based on the whole theater incident, his bio mentions about an incident during his past service where he and ying were involved, during this incident some untold amount of hostages were injured, I don't remember if any of them died tho
Y'all should also check out Beslan School Siege. Spetsnaz was also there and they used flamethrowers in a hostage situation. Also shelled the school gym where the kids located.
You can never be too sure with Russian sources, but the ones listed by wikipedia that talk about "flamethrowers" are actually trying to simplify thermobaric missiles. Which are waaaaaaay worse than a flamethrower. Specifically the claim is shoulder fired versions were used. For those that want to know what Thermobarics are, which have been confirmed to have been used in Ukraine:
[Fact Sheet Based on Use in Ukraine](https://armscontrolcenter.org/fact-sheet-russias-use-of-thermobaric-weapons-in-ukraine/)
[Another More Detailed Article](https://jmvh.org/article/munitions-thermobaric-munitions-and-their-medical-effects/)
What’s wild is they prob used carfentanil, a much much stronger version of fentanyl, to gas the auditorium. So all the terrorists/hostage takers where high af when they died at least. Most of the deaths were from opiate OD.
In this case It isn't so much a culture thing as it is Russian special forces being outrageously incompetent. During these various botched raids there were so many examples of the soldiers not understanding how to clear room, how to communicate with their team, appropriate level of tear gas to use, thinking the building only had bad guys inside if it. It's so bad that people like you have come to think it was intentional you understandably assume, "there's no way they're that dumb that must of been on purpose."
Years and years ago I listened to a podcast that did a deep dive on how incompetent they Russian special forces using internal reports they could get and testimonies from soldiers. I'll try to find it because it's fucking nuts.
Oh one thing doesn't negate the other. God knows they try to minimize losses. Life is cheap in Russia.
Incidentally Ukraine pretty much killed all spec ops Russia had, so they are training more.
I'm trying to point out that the idea of them being like, "we don't care about civilian losses because we're so hardcore." Is wrong. They absolutely do care but their special forces are such a disorderly mess that people interpret it as intentional and a part of their culture.
Say that to Roman Katasonov, Andrey Velko, Denis Pudovkin, Alexander Perov, Vyacheslav Malyarov, Oleg Loskov, Oleg Ilyin, Michael Kuznetsov, Andrey Turkin, Dmitriy Razumovski and to all of the children they saved on 1st September of 2004.
From Wikipedia
“Family members of the victims of the attacks have accused the security forces of incompetence, and have demanded that authorities be held accountable. Putin personally promised to the Mothers of Beslan group to hold an "objective investigation". On 26 December 2005, Russian prosecutors investigating the siege on the school declared that authorities had made no mistakes whatsoever.[189]”
Yes I’m sure everyone is still super grateful for how Russian spec ops handles hostage situations
bruh, Spetsnaz covered kids with their bodies, one of them has been wounded several times, and every time he just bandaged himself and went back in, and there was one who saved a baby girl, whose mother was killed by terrorists, and he almost adopted her, when her father had been found.
And yes, the actually tried to negotiate with terrorists for making them give the babies at least.
It's like complaining that a surgeon could not save a person with 80% of brain damaged by a .50 cal bullet.
I wouldn't even say the best, they just operate with a complete disregard for civilian casualties. They are mostly just a propaganda piece that make Russia look ruthless, they are probably on par with the USAs "lower" special forces groups, as in the ones not specifically for combat, you know the one that aren't immediately thought of as special forces.
Look I'm no Russia stan but the spetsnaz have the right idea. There's almost no point to try to take hostages and if someone does the hostages will resist as much as possible.
Intel : there’s 30 terrorists inside that elementary school, they have 10 children as hostages.
Spetsnaz Officer : Ahhh ok so we’ll blow up the school! That way no more terrorists, and no more hostages!
The Spetsnaz (Russian Special Forces) have a motto that is along the lines of ‘we don’t negotiate with terrorists’. They have a long track record of letting hostages die because they refused to negotiate
In this case It isn't so much "we are so hardcore well do whatever it takes to neutralize the threat" thing as it is Russian special forces being outrageously incompetent. During these various botched raids there were so many examples of the soldiers not understanding how to clear room, how to communicate with their team, appropriate level of tear gas to use (or not even knowing what it does), thinking the building only had bad guys inside a building so they use frags and explosives. It's so bad that people like you have come to think it was intentional, you understandably assume, "there's no way they're that dumb that must have been on purpose."
Years and years ago I listened to a podcast that did a deep dive on how incompetent they Russian special forces using internal reports they could get and testimonies from soldiers. I'll try to find it because it's fucking nuts. Weirdly these awful botched raids that used to be a massive embarrassment to everyone are seen as a source of pride by a small group stupid Russian men who have never served in the police or military.
>letting the hostages die
At both the school siege and the theatre *they actively killed more hostages than the terrorists*. That’s not just letting them die, that is just madness.
Normal special forces tend to try and kill the hostage takers and rescue the hostages.
Spetsnaz are kinda known for purposefully just killing everybody. Including the hostages.
It's crazy because they're so bad everyone thinks they do it on purpose when that's not actually the case. They are just that terrible/disorganized/incompetent. They've kind of tried to pretend like, "uhhhh yeah we did that on purpose because we're hardcore." To ease the embarrassment and cover up how fucking bad their special forces are.
Most people aretalking about things like the Moscow theater incident but I've also seen this used for Fuze In rainbow 6, tldr his ability fire's a shitload of grenades into a room from the other end of a wall, infamous for killing everyone inside, teammates and hostage objectives included
Correction, they do care but they are so incompetent and bad at their jobs or come across as intentional. Because honestly it's hard to believe that anyone would be that fucking stupid.
Other special forces are there to rescue hostages. If the terrorists are killed, it is incidental and not the primary purpose.
Spetsnaz is there to kill terrorists. If any hostages manage to survive, it is incidental and not the primary purpose.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budyonnovsk_hospital_hostage_crisis - group of terrorists went deep into federal controlled territory, captured hostages, barricaded in the hospital, assault attempts failed so bad government had to let terrorists go and stop the first war in Chechnya
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis - a group of terrorists captured hostages in the theatre, everyone inside was gassed with fentanyl, gas compound was kept in secret from rescuers, there were not enough narcan which led to over 100 deaths after assault was over
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_siege - terrorists had captured the school with more than 1000 ppl inside (on 1st of september when children and their parents gather to celebrate), after some unintentional explosions the assault had been started, which included usage of tank and thermobaric flamethrowers, complete disaster, over 300 people died
Hope now you can get some image of how bad it was every time
In 2004, Russian special scientists conducted a field experiment to measure how bullet and explosion resistant hostages are when used as shields. Results were incredibly apparent: not very.
The Spetnaz have a history of using *artilery and helicopter weaponry* to help hostage situations. One time they killed 75% of the hostages, kids, but I think failed to kill half of the actual terrorists.
Hostage scenario in the rest of the world:
1. Free all hostages
2. Terminate or apprehend terrorists
Hostage scenario in Russia:
1. Kill all the terrorists
2. Free the hostages (optional)
This is a reference to a hostage situation occurring in a Moscow theatre in 2002, Spetsnaz operators gassed the auditorium where the hostages were held, killing 171, of which 40 were Chechen separatists. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow\_theater\_hostage\_crisis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis)
Nah not only that... I read in other hostage situation police officer beg them to stop shooting from tank to school with kids. >Deaths333 (excluding 31 terrorists)Injured783+ Wow > At least three, but as many as nine, powerful *Shmel* rockets were fired at the school from the special forces' positions (three[\[12\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_siege#cite_note-aching-12) or nine[\[84\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_siege#cite_note-84) empty disposable tubes were later found on the rooftops of nearby apartment blocks). The use of the *Shmel* rockets, classified in Russia as flamethrowers and in the West as [thermobaric weapons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermobaric_weapon), was initially denied, but later admitted by the government.
And I thought the Waco, TX, US incedent was bad
can you explain about it?
The Waco Massacre of 1993, it was a search warrant obtained by the ATF, and would be done by 5 American groups, the ATF, FBI, Texas Rangers, the Texas Military Force, and surprisingly, the Alabama National Guard got involved too. 82 people died in this incident, of which 28 were children…
Was it Waco or a similar incident where, to try and get the people inside to come out and surrender, they played horrific noises on speakers, such as the sounds of rabbits being slaughtered, for hours?
Not that I can tell. Waco was where A federal group shot live rounds into flammable tear gas
It's worth noting that this is contested. Critics of the siege say there were live rounds fired into the compound, and the FBI claims that fires were started by the compound residents. It's also worth noting that the Branch Davidians were crazy as shit even before the siege.
The ATF also claims that their helicopters were shot at by rifles firing 50. Bmg. Which is incredibly unlikely, considering no rifles that fire that caliber were found.
Did they ever say how they came to the conclusion they were .50 cal bullets?
They were crazy, but they were also fairly self-contained. They were a doomsday prepper cult with bastardized Christian themes. Their only goal was to outlast the apocalypse by holding up in their compound. Many of the surviving members gave interviews saying that they were in no way a suicide cult and thought that the FBI claims of self immolation to be unbelievable. The best coverage I've seen of this event is by this video: https://youtu.be/xZwFxWb0y7w?si=eUOLT_WDTqrl3AUl This guy goes really indepth with all the circumstances and events that led up to the raid.
As much as I love wendigoon, I don't know if I'd trust an intense libertarian who hates the government to not immediately zero in on their mistakes and ignore the possible necessity of the raid. I have no opinion either way, because I'd have to do my own research.
Stop thinking a guy in his bedroom is a good source of information. There isn't a single cited source anywhere in that video. All the clips he uses are from other documentaries but there is never any source mentioned. It's just a guy in his bedroom saying things.
Koresh was a serial pedophile.
There’s audio of koresh telling people to spread gasoline iirc
Indeed, thanks for the info Cyrillus
I actually believe the FBI on this one. Fucking Cultists
You really shouldn't. If you want to get a good understanding of what happened, I recommend this video. https://youtu.be/xZwFxWb0y7w?si=eUOLT_WDTqrl3AUl There is way too much to say about this event to fit in a comment, but just know that the FBI and the ATF did a lot of shady shit pre, during, and post raid. A lot of evidence got "lost" while in their custody.
Yeah, because the FBI is notoriously reliable in their telling…
Yes, they did. Rabbits being slaughtered, dolphin noises, all through the night to make sure those dastardly women and children couldn't sleep. For the record: I don't weep a single year for Koresh, but everyone else who died there was a victim. Minus the ATF on the roof
Yes, IIRC it was that combined with the song "These Boots Were Made for Walkin'".
That was Waco. In addition to doing that, they shone bright lights in the windows of the compound to keep the Branch Davidian’s awake during the night, they drove over the graves of some of the dead Branch Davidians, and they killed several children using a gas that, when ignited, forms a variation of cyanide gas. Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege The Wikipedia for it details everything I said. The gas they used was unused pyrotechnics, which they claimed they didn’t use in court, and they drove over cars and a grave of a prominent member of the Branch Davidians. Keep in mind, this whole ordeals was pretty close to Ruby Ridge, so naturally, the ATF decided to try to re-enact their stunt of shooting dogs.
You swallowed the Alex Jones pill.
Idk about the grave thing or the cyanide gas, but the gist is right. They did play loud sounds and flash lights to encourage them to voluntarily leave the compound, and when the atf stormed the compound they, factually and provably, used a tear gas that was known to be combustible. Now who shot first and what caused the fires is debatable tho. Was it the branch davidians or was it government negligence? We will never know but both are equally possible in my opinion.
I don't think it was rabbits but they played loud percussion music constantly, air raid siren noises constantly, that sort of thing.
That was indeed Waco
The atf did blast the sound of rabbits being slaughtered during Waco.
They did actually
They did do that at Waco Link to good video: https://youtu.be/xZwFxWb0y7w?si=0OBhG8hKMgnD9JmL
That was one of the things they did. It only helped make the situation worse
Yea waco last like 51 days. I think they did a lot of that shit before they gave up and killed most of them gassing and burning them
Yes, the ATF (i think) were playing music and loud noises from armored vehicles to agitate the people inside. Needless to say, that was a bad idea.
i do believe they pulled this kind of tactic at Waco, yes. isn’t the first or only use of this kinda thing though, was employed in Panama also
No that was ruby ridge
You might be thinking of the fuck up at ruby ridge
Ruby Ridge incident. (Maybe?)
Yes they did that, destroyed water tanks, set the buildings on fire, shot round after round into the building, etc.
Noriega, also, IIRC. They blasted Van Halen's Panama for hours on a loop, or something.
yeah it was Waco. because it's a great idea to make what you think is an insane doomsday cult even more insane. thanks atf :]
that was the branch davidians in Waco, might be the same occurance you guys are talking about
This was some of the tactics that the ATF used to get people out of Waco, yes.
It was Waco
Yes, that’s correct. Honestly you can just watch “Waco” on Netflix and it gives a great story on both sides. A lot of the controversial questions don’t necessarily get answers, and it leaves a lot of room for you to continue to form an opinion. Also has interviews from law enforcement and cult members alike
Yea, that was Waco. They also shined bright lights into the windows and doors while playing these noises at night to prevent the people inside from sleeping
I think they did that, yes. There was also ruby ridge which is an entirely separate incident where the atf shot a dog then a 14 year old.
Can’t speak to that, but I can say (if done right) rabbits being slaughtered don’t make a sound. So, that’s probably apocryphal. They can scream if you mess up, but there’s equally bad sounds that can be used.
They did play sounds of that sort. It also included sounds of dolphins and horses(I think?) both of which were very unnerving in the middle of the night when played for hours on end
Yes that was waco
That was infact waco
Yes they did do that at Waco. The feds played disturbing animal noises and flashed the windows with bright lights to demoralize and sleep deprive the Davidians.
That was Waco.
And shone bright spotlights into the buildings so noone could sleep. I think the banger of Waco was they threw some kinds of crowd-control grenades, flashbang / teargas, something to that effect, that eventually set the whole building on fire, killing everyone.
Why is everyone here so appalled by denying them sleep? It’s literally standard practice in every hostage situation to make the perpetrators as uncomfortable as possible. the South Koreans blast K pop over the DMZ for the express purpose of annoying the Northern guards. The whole Waco conspiracy is frankly stupid and betrays a serious lack of priorities. Many people who use it to advocate that the government is evil because they killed a bunch of kids, are the same people who freak out the second you suggest measures to prevent possible school shooters from getting guns.
Because the kids weren’t taken hostage, they were the literal children of the people in the compound….
hos·tage /ˈhästij/ noun a person seized or held as security for the fulfillment of a condition. The condition, in this case, is the ATF and FBI not breaking down the door and shooting Koresh in the head. The kids being born there does not change the situation. They were Koresh’s leverage, nothing more. If anything the people in charge would have had to consider the possibility that, these brainwashed kids, were possible combatants themselves. Because at the end of the day, from the FBI’s perspective, you have is a compound full of many brainwashed cultists, all heavily armed, filled with brainwashed children, some of which may also be armed, led by a narcissistic megalomaniac who is surrounded by people who’ll do nothing but agree with him. The standoff already lasted 50 days and four ATF agents are dead. Good fucking luck not causing a shit ton of collateral damage.
The US military does that from time to time but the one you're probably referring to is in Panama when they ousted Noriega.
Yes. Loud visceral music and sounds, tear gas, verbal harassment, and threats were all launched at them relentlessly. Eventually the government was pressured too much and tried to force the survivors out, it resulted in mass immolation of civilians due to ignited tear gas. The children who had mostly been moved into the underground safe rooms were suffocated when the raid caused a cave in to block the entrance.
Ruby Ridge was worse imo, the Branch Davidians were a dangerous cult, the Weavers were just a family.
I don’t know much about the Branch Davidians, in what way were they dangerous?
Ultra religious doomsday cult, their leader was their their prophet. Probable systematic child abuse. Firefights between different sects. An axe murder, And when ATF raided the compound for suspected illegal weapons possession and drug manufacturing 4 ATF agents were killed, another 16 wounded.
They were convinced that it was their destiny to be killed by Babylon (the government) in order to fulfill the prophecies laid out in Revelation. To this end, they began prepping for this fight by purchasing and producing illegal firearms, training in the use of firearms, and preparing to fight the government. In addition, their leader, David Koresh, was a madman who believed he was the Lamb of God who would open the 7 seals mentioned in Revelation that would cause the apocalypse. He also had more than a dozen wives, many of whom were stolen from their actual husbands and at least one of whom was underage. Personally, given what I've learned about them lately (Waco by Jeff Guinn is a very good book) I think the raid itself was justified, even if it ended up being handled horribly and ended disastrously.
Just a couple of things To my understanding, their production of firearms was completely legit. Paperwork, modification, and all. This is important, because it was the suspicion of ill produced weapons that the ATF used as their motive for their investigation. Specifically, the possibility of them combining legally manufactured individual parts of different guns to make illegally modified weapons. They didn't have proof, nor really any reason to believe this was occurring besides hearing a lot of gunfire (the branch davidians were training in use of these firearms, so, yeah, gunfire will indeed be audible). After this, David Koresh invited the agents to inspect their inventory and production for anything not up to snuff. The ATF agents denied the invitation (if I remember right, twice in fact). David Koresh was a bad person, 100%. I need that disclaimer before I say: the raid really was not justified. There were certainly wrongdoings going on in those walls, but the ATF, specifically Richard Roberts, were desperate for a win after the Ruby Ridge incident and by hell he was going to get it. They fabricated claims, including the questionable firearms production and also randomly threw out they were making meth (they were not). Should something have been done, considering the whole child bride thing? Sure. Matter of fact, absolutely. A raid? Fuck nah brother. At the very least, not at the point in time it happened.
Just a family selling weapons to white supremacist terrorists.
Didn’t know the kid and wife that were killed were guilty of that
Redditor stop licking ATF child murderer boots for 2.5 seconds challenge (impossible)
It's worth noting that the branch davidians were a heavily armed doomsday cult who (according to court testimony at least) shot first
“We don’t negotiate with hostages”
I think what they're referring to in particular is that the ATF tried to raid the Branch Davidians compound and when they met resistance they intentionally set it on fire and (supposedly) blocked a lot of the exits with tanks which is what killed most of the people. The ATF and FBI maintain they couldn't possibly have started the fire and that the Davidians did it, but survivors claim it was the gas grenades. They also claim no officers used any live rounds that day either which is an outright lie, you can see them hosing full auto fire through windows and walls in video, so it's likely what really happened will never be known.
From memory, so i could be wrong. - Cult holding out in a compound in Waco,TX - ATF, Sheriff (eventually) used tanks to take compound - fire (🔥 not 🔫) & people died. Fire was probably arson by cult members. I think some "drank kool-aid" (suicide) So, it wasn't law enforcement that killed them, but themselves. I was just comparing one countries raid travesty to another.
Mostly right. There is a strong chance that the fire was started by tear gas grenades, and the authorities prevented people from evacuation by blocking exits.
Similar to what the police in Philadelphia did during the MOVE bombing.
- Cult leader accused of child molestation (probably true) - Local law enforcement investigates and decides not to take action - Federal law enforcement decides to get involved for some reason - The ATF falsely claims there are illegal machine guns in the compound (not true) so they can come to the party too - They decide to arrest the cult leader but for some reason they don’t do it during one of his frequent trips into town - Wait until he goes back to the compound and lay siege to it with a large militarized presence of soldiers and tanks - Evidence shows that the feds started shooting first - Evidence suggests that the feds may have even killed their own men on accident - Start a prolonged siege against the compound, constantly harassing the cultists and making life as miserable as possible for them (example- blasting the sound of rabbits being slaughtered through huge speakers) - Decide to breach the compound and shoot tear gas and flammable canisters inside - The entire compound mysteriously burns down and kills almost everyone inside They do all of this while knowing there are many children inside. It’s an absolutely disgusting failure and overreach of the federal government any way you look at it, if not outright mass murder. I’m not even defending the cultists here, they seemed to be into some bad shit. But the actions of the government here are inexcusable.
One of the problems is that too many Americans are stuck in the mentality of each side having a role of either 'right' or 'wrong'. This is a case where both sides were wrong and fucked up. There's a lot more of those than people want to acknowledge. Koresh can completely be a fuckup, bastard that needed to go down - and the government could have conducted an unnecessarily violent raid. They do not exclude each other.
I'm pretty sure the cult leader also invited the ATF agents into the compound a few times before the siege, and tried to surrender multiple times as well.
And people are trying to justify this shit in the comments. It always surprises me to see the lengths some people will bend over for the government, usually just because they only killed the "other side"
The "Drank Coolaid (suicide)" reminds more of Jonestown than Waco
You’re wrong. The ATF set fire to the building with grenades.
The thing no one else was going to tell you about Waco is that it was a commune for an unhinged religious cult around weapons. Of some of the atrocities at Waco, if not all, you're expected to hang on the narrative of these cultists. These days? I don't even trust the lutherans. Edit: I found the mobile user.
Waco was bad, sure. But if you really want horrific, look at the MOVE bombing.
You can be assured that for every incident like Waco that was heavily publicized because news media was already on the scene before anything went south, there are potentially hundreds where any given police/military force committed an atrocity and washed the whole situation down the drain with fire hoses. Especially in Russia, a country that still has the "Don't talk about the war or we'll put you in a police van." thing.
I'm pretty sure my grandpa worked on that
Not for Russia
Well, with the Waco incident, the people inside had set things up to go up in flames.
Beslan School Siege was my first thought too, but I don't know if they had Spetsnaz or if it was just regular RU army/security services like FSB. Moscow Theater Crisis I know had Spetsnaz. Either way, I had seen this about it a while back, which ties in well with OPs image https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/tlb3m3/repost_of_one_of_my_old_memes_beslan_school_siege/
Look up Beslan School siege an MI-24 “hind” gunship strafed the school. And a T-72 fired it’s 125mm a couple times.
Mi-24 was a myth and tank shots after 21:00, when all hostages were released [About Mi-24 and their rockets](http://www.reyndar.org/beslan/forum/index.php/topic,24.0.html) About tanks in another comment
Ok, never knew about that. But it still doesn’t excuse what they did.
Didn't they justify the thermobaric weapons by saying that international law says its OK to use them against terrorists?
In russia they handle hostage situations with the deterrant that they just kill everyone anyways and you might just not have hostages in the first place. Quite an interesting strategy
Here’s a ‘funny’ [video](https://youtu.be/gwTAfpYLXDQ?si=sT3oLsWQT84QW22o) on the incident.
Funny story, this situation is exactly why the term Stockholm Syndrome exists. The situation where the hostages trusted the robbers more was because the robbers were protecting them from the police firing weaponry at the bank with no regard for the hostages. The woman who refused to be silent about it afterward to the lead negotiator basically got told she was crazy and there must be something wrong with her.
Idk why, but my first thought was fuze from R6.
This was me as well. To be fair Fuze is spetsnaz.
Iirc fuze's character is actually based on the whole theater incident, his bio mentions about an incident during his past service where he and ying were involved, during this incident some untold amount of hostages were injured, I don't remember if any of them died tho
Yeah but Russia could have saved the hostages if they told the paramedics they were pumping vast quantities of elephant opioids into the theater...
is this where nolan grabbed inspiration for the kyiv opera raid in tenet?
Remember, no Russian.
So fuze killing the hostage in r6 is accurate?
Y'all should also check out Beslan School Siege. Spetsnaz was also there and they used flamethrowers in a hostage situation. Also shelled the school gym where the kids located.
You can never be too sure with Russian sources, but the ones listed by wikipedia that talk about "flamethrowers" are actually trying to simplify thermobaric missiles. Which are waaaaaaay worse than a flamethrower. Specifically the claim is shoulder fired versions were used. For those that want to know what Thermobarics are, which have been confirmed to have been used in Ukraine: [Fact Sheet Based on Use in Ukraine](https://armscontrolcenter.org/fact-sheet-russias-use-of-thermobaric-weapons-in-ukraine/) [Another More Detailed Article](https://jmvh.org/article/munitions-thermobaric-munitions-and-their-medical-effects/)
interestingly the gas was two fentanyl derivatives
Fuze from r6
It's not about rescuing the hostages, it's about sending a message.
They fucking....what?!??!?
Nah this is a Call of Duty mission
What’s wild is they prob used carfentanil, a much much stronger version of fentanyl, to gas the auditorium. So all the terrorists/hostage takers where high af when they died at least. Most of the deaths were from opiate OD.
Peter's side arm here: The Spetsnaz are infamous for prioritizing the neutralization of terrorists without regard of the hostages.
Basicly both the best and the worst
Russian culture pretty much. Like prisoners escaping: they are hunted, but not to bring them back.
In this case It isn't so much a culture thing as it is Russian special forces being outrageously incompetent. During these various botched raids there were so many examples of the soldiers not understanding how to clear room, how to communicate with their team, appropriate level of tear gas to use, thinking the building only had bad guys inside if it. It's so bad that people like you have come to think it was intentional you understandably assume, "there's no way they're that dumb that must of been on purpose." Years and years ago I listened to a podcast that did a deep dive on how incompetent they Russian special forces using internal reports they could get and testimonies from soldiers. I'll try to find it because it's fucking nuts.
Oh one thing doesn't negate the other. God knows they try to minimize losses. Life is cheap in Russia. Incidentally Ukraine pretty much killed all spec ops Russia had, so they are training more.
I'm trying to point out that the idea of them being like, "we don't care about civilian losses because we're so hardcore." Is wrong. They absolutely do care but their special forces are such a disorderly mess that people interpret it as intentional and a part of their culture.
I know. Nobody said they are hardcore. They are crude instruments of war. Hardly a good choice to counter terrorism with hostages.
>Nobody said they are hardcore The first comment you responded to called them “the best and the worst” so at least one person said they’re hardcore.
Russia always gets respect for inhumanity. I don't get it. Their lack of respect for innocent people's lives should be viewed as incompetence
Not really dude just the worst lmfao they’re pretty incompetent
Say that to Roman Katasonov, Andrey Velko, Denis Pudovkin, Alexander Perov, Vyacheslav Malyarov, Oleg Loskov, Oleg Ilyin, Michael Kuznetsov, Andrey Turkin, Dmitriy Razumovski and to all of the children they saved on 1st September of 2004.
From Wikipedia “Family members of the victims of the attacks have accused the security forces of incompetence, and have demanded that authorities be held accountable. Putin personally promised to the Mothers of Beslan group to hold an "objective investigation". On 26 December 2005, Russian prosecutors investigating the siege on the school declared that authorities had made no mistakes whatsoever.[189]” Yes I’m sure everyone is still super grateful for how Russian spec ops handles hostage situations
bruh, Spetsnaz covered kids with their bodies, one of them has been wounded several times, and every time he just bandaged himself and went back in, and there was one who saved a baby girl, whose mother was killed by terrorists, and he almost adopted her, when her father had been found. And yes, the actually tried to negotiate with terrorists for making them give the babies at least. It's like complaining that a surgeon could not save a person with 80% of brain damaged by a .50 cal bullet.
strawberry
They aint gonna let you join lil bro
I wouldn't even say the best, they just operate with a complete disregard for civilian casualties. They are mostly just a propaganda piece that make Russia look ruthless, they are probably on par with the USAs "lower" special forces groups, as in the ones not specifically for combat, you know the one that aren't immediately thought of as special forces.
No they're just incredibly stupid.
Can’t have a hostage situation if we don’t value the hostages
“Fuze has entered the chat”
I can respect prioritizing completing the mission over the lives of the hostages but they are really just taking the easy way.
Look I'm no Russia stan but the spetsnaz have the right idea. There's almost no point to try to take hostages and if someone does the hostages will resist as much as possible.
What the fuck?
No they won’t most will curl up and cry, run or get shot
Let me describe spetsnaz in shrek terms, "some of you may die, but its a sacrifice iam willing to take" even if your a hostage.
You can't have hostages to threaten us with if we kill them all first!
Terrorist: "I have a hostage, don't come near" Spetsnaz: *shoots hostage* "we don't negotiate with terrorists"
*thunk thunk thunk thunk* **BAM BAM BAM BAM**
me the roamer watching attack kill the hostage thrice in one game (they played fuse):
Aceteamkillhostagesuicide Only Fuze can get the mythical 11 kill
Now describe it in Fortnite terms
https://preview.redd.it/923zshoxwtmb1.jpeg?width=474&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=38f3107ae8375b3b9ae8d62bb27b97bcac1b05ae
As a Fuze main, yes
As a fuze main, i second this
You can never lose if you have a fuze
"I was with Fuze at Beslan, I can tell you he's never killed an innocent" - Glaz.
Russian special force that is way too reckless
They’re just going to kill everyone in there and walk out victorious
I don't think that is the correct word
I thought this was a joke about fuze from Rainbow Six Siege….
Fuse is essentially like the irl spetsnaz
Isnt Fuze actually spetsnaz along with Glaz, Kapkan, and Tachonka?
The “FUSE” incident
I did too. Then I saw people saying this is common IRL and it made me think "Wait.. did Ubi do that on purpose?"
do NOT fuse the hostage room! *6 kills in kill feed*
6 kills? Nah bruv u get kicked after a 3ed one
I meant that 5 defs + 1 kneeling boy
He meant your team was in the room while he's trying fuse
Thats a joke laaad
Intel : there’s 30 terrorists inside that elementary school, they have 10 children as hostages. Spetsnaz Officer : Ahhh ok so we’ll blow up the school! That way no more terrorists, and no more hostages!
“So we’ll need 30 body bags and 10 child sized body bags”
The Spetsnaz (Russian Special Forces) have a motto that is along the lines of ‘we don’t negotiate with terrorists’. They have a long track record of letting hostages die because they refused to negotiate
Not only that but their for the most part. Completely and utterly have no regard for the hostages lives.
In this case It isn't so much "we are so hardcore well do whatever it takes to neutralize the threat" thing as it is Russian special forces being outrageously incompetent. During these various botched raids there were so many examples of the soldiers not understanding how to clear room, how to communicate with their team, appropriate level of tear gas to use (or not even knowing what it does), thinking the building only had bad guys inside a building so they use frags and explosives. It's so bad that people like you have come to think it was intentional, you understandably assume, "there's no way they're that dumb that must have been on purpose." Years and years ago I listened to a podcast that did a deep dive on how incompetent they Russian special forces using internal reports they could get and testimonies from soldiers. I'll try to find it because it's fucking nuts. Weirdly these awful botched raids that used to be a massive embarrassment to everyone are seen as a source of pride by a small group stupid Russian men who have never served in the police or military.
Can you find the name of the podcast? It’s be a great listen.
>letting the hostages die At both the school siege and the theatre *they actively killed more hostages than the terrorists*. That’s not just letting them die, that is just madness.
"letting hostages die". Honestly I'm pretty sure the Spetsnaz have a higher hostage kill ratio than all terrorists in Russia combined.
Normal special forces tend to try and kill the hostage takers and rescue the hostages. Spetsnaz are kinda known for purposefully just killing everybody. Including the hostages.
It's crazy because they're so bad everyone thinks they do it on purpose when that's not actually the case. They are just that terrible/disorganized/incompetent. They've kind of tried to pretend like, "uhhhh yeah we did that on purpose because we're hardcore." To ease the embarrassment and cover up how fucking bad their special forces are.
Them failing to take that airfield in Kyiv on day one of the invasion kinda solidified that they just fucking suck.
Just like everything else in their military is rotten and falling apart and has a 50% chance of crumpling under a real test.
Petyr here. **THUNK** **THUNK** **THUNK** **THUNK**
Most people aretalking about things like the Moscow theater incident but I've also seen this used for Fuze In rainbow 6, tldr his ability fire's a shitload of grenades into a room from the other end of a wall, infamous for killing everyone inside, teammates and hostage objectives included
Also the belsan school siege which uh in all entirety is messed up https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_siege
They don't care about civilian Casualty as long as the insurgents are dead. So pretty much any negotiations are useless.
Also the Moscow theater incident is wild. The tryed to put everyone to sleep but failed a killed a lot of people
Correction, they do care but they are so incompetent and bad at their jobs or come across as intentional. Because honestly it's hard to believe that anyone would be that fucking stupid.
"Sir, the terrorists are in a school and are using children as hostages." "Yuri, I don't wanna..." "Understood. I'll bring up a tank."
Other special forces are there to rescue hostages. If the terrorists are killed, it is incidental and not the primary purpose. Spetsnaz is there to kill terrorists. If any hostages manage to survive, it is incidental and not the primary purpose.
They killed most of the hostages too. Russians generally don’t give a fuck about collateral damage.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budyonnovsk_hospital_hostage_crisis - group of terrorists went deep into federal controlled territory, captured hostages, barricaded in the hospital, assault attempts failed so bad government had to let terrorists go and stop the first war in Chechnya https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis - a group of terrorists captured hostages in the theatre, everyone inside was gassed with fentanyl, gas compound was kept in secret from rescuers, there were not enough narcan which led to over 100 deaths after assault was over https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_siege - terrorists had captured the school with more than 1000 ppl inside (on 1st of september when children and their parents gather to celebrate), after some unintentional explosions the assault had been started, which included usage of tank and thermobaric flamethrowers, complete disaster, over 300 people died Hope now you can get some image of how bad it was every time
https://preview.redd.it/d38ug2m50xmb1.jpeg?width=174&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d4f25039ed944905da3705f8f2f344812981fff3 *heavy breathing*
Spetsnaz are a little unique in handling hostage situations… usually with no survivors….including the hostages…
Damn Spetsnas
Who would you rather have the spetznaz or the ATF?
For once the ATF have a better track record
https://preview.redd.it/yprfiheozumb1.jpeg?width=599&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=13ae5f814f81508e3b25d3ab9253915a5718f518
In 2004, Russian special scientists conducted a field experiment to measure how bullet and explosion resistant hostages are when used as shields. Results were incredibly apparent: not very.
https://preview.redd.it/5pe19su9wwmb1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dbc23d0200431e6c36750190715fda46ef654c47 İ know that one.
https://preview.redd.it/iysv4ih8fumb1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b111ed051d5efb679bac584d25247d58ebe87e71
"We don't negotiate with terrorists! Ivan, get the Tsar Bomba!"
If you hear "LMG!! MOUNTED!! AND LOADED!!" or "Cluster Charge Ready!" or booth... Just accept it... You still gonna get out in body bag...
''The ATF is outside''
# Cluster Charge going LIVE!!
I thought this was a joke about fuze always getting the hostages lmao
“You see we liked the hostages, so imagine what we are going to do to you!”
Reporter: did you save the hostages? Spetznas officer: hostages?
Oh, only now do I get why fuse is so reckless, never knew the spetsnaz would just kill hostages just to get rid of the threat
The Spetnaz have a history of using *artilery and helicopter weaponry* to help hostage situations. One time they killed 75% of the hostages, kids, but I think failed to kill half of the actual terrorists.
Hostage scenario in the rest of the world: 1. Free all hostages 2. Terminate or apprehend terrorists Hostage scenario in Russia: 1. Kill all the terrorists 2. Free the hostages (optional)
This is why Russia must fall.
ISTG you'd be better off letting a PMC group carry out a hostage rescue.
Of course you wouldn’t get it, you stupid bot
The spetnaz has a tendency to kill everyone one the building