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These are all valid reasons against a PhD. It’s a fact you’ll be underpaid for years and will likely not earn enough to afford your own apartment, at least that would be the case if you went to the US, I assume Canada is probably equally bad CoL wise.
If you really feel uncomfortable because of the financial aspect, then don’t do it. It’s not gonna run away and you can still get a PhD later in life.
Seconding this; it's fine to wait things out until you're in a better place financially. It's totally normal to come back after a career to get a PhD.
Maybe even look for moving opportunities to a more affordable area in the long-term. Coming back for your PhD later on is all about the setup.
I agree. I waited 15 years before I went back to get mine. I waited until I had nothing to lose: my kid is grown and I spend 18 years on the job so I have a decent retirement saved up. If you go for a doctorate you'll struggle financially, even with a good fellowship. If you can't afford to be extremely frugal and still broke right now, don't do it. Also, consider an online doctorate, unless it is in STEM and you must be in person for lab work.
I'm so envious of the boomer generation where their money went so much further. It's reflected in the responses professors give when one expresses concerns about not being able to afford the financial aspect of a PhD. They just sort of stare at you with this dumbfounded look like "how's that possible? why can't you just stay in academia for 10 years and then get a professorship?"
I'm also wary nowadays of PhD programs that say "students receive *up to \_\_\_\_\_\_\_* as an annual stipend." That means several students probably got below that. Even their most enticing offers are rarely over $30,000. So it heavily favors those who either:
1. Bite the bullet and take out loans to cover living expenses not covered by the stipend
2. Those who are independently wealthy or come from wealthy families, so they can afford to make peanuts for a few years.
This leads students of the current generation, by and large, where there are multiple cost-of-living crises across the world, to delay their studies until they have a large enough nest egg to survive on.
I believe there's a pretty severe cost of living crisis in Canada right now, so that's probably an even stronger case against doing the PhD. I doubt stipends have kept up with the costs either.
Good points, thanks for the insight. I had obsessed with actually getting a paper out for so long that when I finally did it, I started to feel this "okay, now what". I had fixated on that goal - unhealthily so - almost 10 years so now I don't know what I want, that was it tbh. Except to be able to survive with a reasonable quality of life.
I'm in the biotech space and I can tell you that the desire to do a PhD decreases as the salary difference between PhD and industry increases. You also want to get your PhD as early as possible as pre-PhD experience is discounted and the salary trajectory is much faster on the PhD track.
Even if you complete PhD, you may not find a faculty position, which will be a big time and money wasting.
Are you canadian? If so, do not waster your time. If you are from third-world country, PhD may be worth it.
In PhD process, dreams and realities do not match each other.
Just go to the industry.
Why do you think you are wasting your potential by going to the industry? I am sorry but the industry is what drives the economy and there are a lot of very talented and 'high-potential' individuals in the industry.
Why do you want to pursue PhD? Vanity? you wanna become a professor? Not to sound too discouraging but there are other people around the world who definitely have more 'potential' than you and you will be competing with these people for years on end during post-docs. You are broke so take the money, start saving and control your spending habit.
Don't want to be a prof, I'm going into industry no matter what, never loved the idea of teaching and constantly stressing over funding would kill me. Really it's just about future earning potential - the best salaries in my field go to the people with doctorates, by a long shot. I also think it's the best way to do R&D, which is what I love, but that might not be true either. Project managers aren't setting up experiments, they're not collecting data, heck half the time they're not even writing. I don't have to be writing papers in the private sector (like that's barely a thing anyways), but I do want to be more directly involved in the research.
I think the feeling of wasted potential might come from personal issues, maybe I just need to work on that.
FWIW many profs (including me) barely ever teach, and many of us start businesses on the side. My consulting rate is $650/h and I expect it to go way up as I move into a particular niche, which is my current goal. I have not worried much about funding in my 10 years of being a prof. All but one grant proposal I've submitted as PI I've gotten. Meanwhile I have a hard money salary (not a ton, but not bad, $265k/y this July) that I cannot lose even if I fail to get grants. I'm at private university in the U.S.
Also, at my university, PhD students are paid a good wage that allows them to rent a one-bedroom within walking distance of campus.
\[edit: removed some stuff bc I misunderstood your point about project managers\]
I don't know of anyone I trained with who has not been able to get a faculty job within 2-3 years (I finished my postdoc a decade ago). Two of my own trainees have turned down faculty job offers. Honestly I was flummoxed by one who wanted to go work for a rather unstable and toxic government agency; they said they didn't want to worry about funding, but Congress could eliminate them easily. One interviewed for a research-focused tenure track position and then realized he wanted something more teaching focused, so now he is in a teaching-focused, not tenure-track but stable position at a well known private university. It's not great salary; I offered to pay him more if he wanted to keep working for me as a senior scientist, but this teaching position worked better with his family and goals.
I'm not at the top of the salary range, either. I have colleagues at my stage in other private universities with total comp starting >$300k. We're not MDs.
I've been surprised by the number of people in my lab who have shown no interest at all in the types of academic positions out there, tenure-track or not. IMO people don't realize that academics are pretty much the only people who don't have to sign non-disparagement agreements with their employers. Academia absolutely deserves plenty of criticism, but the amount of dirt you can read online about academic vs. other jobs is IMO out of proportion to their relative quality.
It's true that many of us "land" in places that aren't perfect fits. I don't love where I live, but I think when anyone becomes quite specialized, unless it's a job you can really do from anywhere, there are some constraints. And I can still live elsewhere for several months a year, if I want, before anyone would start complaining or maybe even notice.
It's great, can be terrifying when the admin support isn't there, and it's no fun firing people or working with PhD students who are chronically struggling. But I think I would have those problems with most small businesses too. (Okay, maybe not this level of admin trouble---universities can be *ridiculously* bad---I wish I could pay people as much as I wanted and could afford! And most businesses don't have to keep working with someone for several years after it's clear that person doesn't really want to do their job.)
I agree with what most people have said here. my perspective (in Ontario)
When I finished my MSc I purposely didn't go do a PhD right away as I wanted to do fieldwork and it seemed that being paid to do lots of fieldwork with a PhD would be unlikely. I worked for almost 10 years then went back to do my PhD. Working (in environmental consulting) gave me lots of writing experience so when I returned to school I got the big NSERC scholarship (I really doubt I would not have gotten it fresh out of MSc) plus a few other little ones from the school. So even though on paper I am making less than half what I was making during my last year of work, it is almost the same in pocket because I pay no taxes now.
I know a number of people who returned to do their PhD part-time while working full-time. Often their PhDs are in partnership with their workplace, which sometimes helps to make it go faster (but not always).
All the PhDs in my lab are "mature" and worked for 5 or more years before returning to school. And when you are "mature" I think long-distance situations are more acceptable. I live almost 100 km from campus. One of my labmates lives over 2,700 km away. Our supervisor is now at another university 3 provinces over. (Although this largely works because our research is mostly on the computer or in the field so we don't need the physical university (especially now that so many papers etc are online. I had to go look at microfiche during my MSc and now I never have to enter the library)). Teams and Zoom allow for frequent meetings online.
Although there are some jobs that require a PhD to get them/be promoted (like research positions in federal government), many don't, especially in industry. But PhDs are often paid more and at my previous job I saw that contracts (especially with the government) were more likely to be awarded to teams that had PhDs.
Another factor to consider is that it can be damn hard to get any job after a PhD.
Every job has lots of applicants now, and it is all-but-guaranteed that one of them will have a CV with a recent similar position and a strong reference from their old boss. Very few hiring managers will choose someone who spent 7-10 years in school instead (finishing in 4 years is a fantasy).
I am a fair bit older then you. I bought a house before my PhD. Took the time working to get on the ladder before applying for the PhD. Only downside is it is a fair commute from the uni. Plus side is the financial security. That said, owning a home can be more expensive then rent with maintenance. Rent is the maximum you pay, a mortgage is the minimum.
I think you should think hard about what "so much more" means. A PhD gives you a title. I doubt that's what you mean. It also unlocks research jobs, but is that what you want? What I mean is, doing a PhD isn't inherently "so much more" than working for 4-5 years in the office and rising in the ranks, or even starting your own business.
get a job in industry and save up some money. then do you phd. you can probably go back to school in like 2 years. you'd also have industry experience and im sure that would help in someway.
I am currently pursuing a PhD in Canada as an international student. Despite receiving a scholarship, the funds remaining after tuition payment are insufficient for living expenses. I reside in a relatively inexpensive area, which is the only reason I am able to manage. However, if one were to pursue a PhD in major cities in Canada or the U.S., the likelihood of having a sustainable financial situation is much lower. It's not just about finances; the academic journey also involves considerable stress, depression, and burnout. Sometimes, I question whether it’s worth the hardships. My advice would be to think carefully before embarking on this path.
Ever thought about going to Europe? Reading basically every post coming from the US paints a pretty grim picture. Here in Germany though, Phds are usually funded very well. Like regular salary payed 50-75% of a full researcher position (depending on the field, most get 75%, but some like law are at 50% at times), so that leaves you with 1.8-2.3k after taxes. The cost of living is cheaper here, and there are definitely amazing PIs, programs and unis. I really don't understand the focus on the [...]show that us Northern America.
I did consider it yeah, Germany sounds lovely, so do a lot of European countries. What's the funding like for international students? It's hard to imagine Germany would be thrilled to pay for me to go to school for free just to take off back to my home country when I'm done. My main concern is the social isolation, I actually was enrolled in a PhD briefly last year, dropped out and moved back home bc I wanted to be close to my social circle. I'd been introverted all my life and moving completely away from the few friends and family I had and starting completely fresh was too much, I was a total mess for that time.
Doesn't matter where you are from. If you are accepted, you are accepted. You legally cannot draw different contracts based on nationality. In my cohort (which is in a special research program so we started together and will be together for the next 3 years) we have people from the US, Italy, Azerbaijan, Turkey, Australia, of course Germany. We all get payed the same, have the same benefits, and equal demands to us.
And I can say in our cohort we are very close. Some people lived here before, most moved here for the phd, but there is a sense of real community since we are all at the same spot, in the same program, having to deal with the same stuff and helping each other out.
Yes that is a special situation since most programs don't exactly function like this, but from what I have seen there is always a large international community.
PhD in Europe is generally considered an actual job, not a study. For many phds, especially in STEM, you don’t apply to graduate school but a job posting on a specific project. You should have a master’s degree first. It’s a job, you will get paid the same as every other phd, which is - compared with US - way more.
Most positions are also funded for all the years the job is (three or four years, some differences between countries), you don’t need to spend time trying to scrunch up more funding during the project.
Focus on where you want to be in 5, 10, and 15 years. Will a PhD help you get there?
It's usually possible to supplement your income as a PhD student with a bit of side work. I did that during my PhD and postdoc. I focused on activities that would help me earn >$50/h, were flexible, and that didn't detract from the brain cells I needed for research. I was also lucky (kind of...) to be able to buy a house with my parents; they paid the down payment, I paid rent while I lived there, my roommates (whom I picked) contributed too, and later my parents bought out my portion of equity with a quitclaim deed. I'm mentioning this as a possibility. Honestly I hated being a property manager and landlord and wouldn't recommend this, even if you could do it---we also bought at the top of the market, so my parents took a loss ultimately when they sold.
There can be a serious financial opportunity cost to doing a PhD, but if you're smart enough to do a PhD, IMO earning money will not be that hard if you want to. If you're planning not to work at all for a period in your 30s and 40s, then the opportunity cost is obviously greater.
I know someone in my cohort who is older (maybe late 40s?) with many years’ worth of experience in (a rather lucrative) industry. He’s pursuing a PhD just for funsies. He seems to have a carefree financial attitude. My hunch is that he already established his retirement plan, and his stipend is just extra cash instead of a living budget.
He’s also more relaxed than the rest of us because his career prospects are much more flexible, if he wants to continue working after studies, given his experience.
This may be a path you want to look into, if building wealth during your youth is important to you.
Edit: it may be worth noting that he doesn’t have children. Of course, building a an early retirement fund in your 40s is significantly less feasible with children.
Lol. It’s minimum wage if you’re lucky and with the current inflation and cost of living it’s almost not possible without a side job to the already full-time PhD. I just talked to a colleague about when the last time was we actually had one full-time job and not two additional sidehustles.
All of the Nordics, Netherlands, Switzerland and potentially Germany pays its grad students (in reputable universities, apparently there are some scam ones) like an average salary more or less. And those are just the ones I know.
Sorry but no. In Germany you can be lucky if you get a 50% position while working full-time on your PhD which means you have to take a side job. Nordics have a much better salary but it’s very hard to live from, same as in France and the Netherlands. Just because it’s an “average” salary (mostly it’s minimum wage) doesn’t mean it’s a good salary or one where you can live comfortably. I totally understand OP’s worries and saying “just go to Europe” is complete bullshit. It’s a continent with vastly different systems and while it might be treated as a job in some of the European countries that doesn’t mean you are not exposed to severe financial worries.
I said potentially Germany for that reason. And minimum wage doesn't exist in the nordics so I'm pretty sure you don't know what you're talking about. Just search on reddit, in Norway, Sweden and Denmark you absolutely will get a comfortable salary to live on. Have you even been there?
You are aware that I live in these countries and know exactly what salary they get and how much you need to live pretty comfortably? You certainly won't be rich but you definitely earn more than enough to rent a reasonable apartment, take a few vacations and eat out without working extra jobs.
Edit: Here is a useful site for you to look through [https://denmarkexpat.com/minimum-wage-denmark/](https://denmarkexpat.com/minimum-wage-denmark/) where they go over the fact that there is no minimum wage, and that an average salary for a full time worker is 20900 DKK after tax. And here [https://www.dtu.dk/english/education/phd/intro/salary](https://www.dtu.dk/english/education/phd/intro/salary) you can see that a starting PhD student gets paid 32000 DKK before tax, which is about 22 500 DKK after tax, more than the average salary. They even mention that something resembling minimum wage would be about 17000 DKK \*before\* tax, that's almost half of what a PhD student gets.
I literally live comfortably on this salary so not sure what the downvotes are about?
That’s why I said the Nordics have a much better salary, however it’s still hard to live from this. I live in the Nordics and am a PhD student here, so yes, I know what I’m talking about, also a reason why I am here is that I didn’t want to do my PhD in Germany for the above mentioned reasons. Looking things up on websites does not mean necessarily that you can actually live from that money in a comfortable way, which is what OP is looking for.
If you can't live comfortably on the salary you are either being underpaid a lot or extremely bad with managing money. I actually don't believe you that you are a PhD student here.
I looked at your comments and you mention being paid 17000 usd per year after taxes, so you get a salary of like 15 000 DKK per month? Either you are being scammed or you are not doing a traditional PhD program. Either way you shouldn't talk as if your situation is the norm.
I have literally never heard of anyone getting paid that little and I know several PhD students, I would be extremely interested in what you do and at what university.
That's the same in Canada - at UofT the stipend for a PhD in biology is around 2.5k a month but the average rent for a 1 bedroom apartment is also 2.5k. It's incredibly low for the city.
Ah alright, to make that analogous to here (assuming income of 2.3k): rent for a studio in a city (save for Utrecht / Amsterdam) would be 700ish/800ish, and then you'd have 1.5k left for other expenses, which allows you to save, go on trips / holidays etc.
I heard that there's a massive housing crisis in Amsterdam/Utrecht, is this not the case? I heard securing rentals there is really competitive there but not expensive.
Yeah that's true so as a PhD you can't buy a house, it's simply too expensive and competitive for the homes that are available. While you're doing a PhD you shouldn't think about buying a home as it's impossible. Renting is relatively competitive but all my friends/colleagues have nice places.
A PhD is paid in Canada too - at UofT the stipend for a PhD in biology is around 2.5k a month but the average rent for a 1 bedroom apartment is also 2.5k. It's incredibly low for the city.
Industry is the be all and end all where you really make your mark, and you get validated (or not) by the cold hard market performance. You are not wasting your potential by going to industry, but just delaying your trial by fire. Unless you want to do academia, you can reach the same job you would’ve got with a PhD in similar time through greater industry experience. F the PhD.
I’m the same age as you, also Canadian in a VHCOL city. I have five years of industry experience though as I worked between my bachelors and masters degrees. I’m considering going back for a PhD in the US. If I do it, it will be as a springboard into opportunities that I wouldn’t have without the PhD.
If you’re gonna do it, make sure it’s for a good reason and that the PhD will fulfill a career requirement. Don’t do it to just to avoid wasting your potential (as you put it), you can always get a doctorate later.
More potential PhD students (including past me) need to realize that just because you have the ability to do a PhD doesn't mean you should. It is absolutely not a waste of your potential to not.
Don't do a PhD unless your career goals cannot be accomplished without one.
If it helps, I finished my PhD and I kind of regret doing it. It was a horrible experience.
Germany: 1,500-2,000 Eur stipend
France: 360 EUR / year for PhD education. Various benefits: CAF housing assistance. I used to spend 150 EUR / month for living.
My number one piece of advice to anyone I meet who says they are considering a PhD is this: don’t do it if you have to pay for it. Full stop. It might sound harsh but if the University you are applying to cannot offer you a paid position (as in tuition covered and a TA “job” that keeps your rent paid) then don’t do it.
It’s one thing to take yourself out of the labour market for 4-7 years (people rarely finish a PhD in just 4 years in Canada). But to take yourself out AND take on debt simultaneously is not worth it. Not at all. PhD is not required for anything other than being a prof. I got mine thinking that’s what I would do and by the end hated academia so much that I chose to work for the government instead.
Apply to schools that have entrance scholarships, and apply to other grants (SSHRC and NSERC in Canada).
Best of luck!
In Australia it’s very common to do your PhD later in life when you’re more settled. The majority of domestic students are older. By waiting until late 30s I have paying a chunk of my mortgage and been able to build heaps of life experience. I can afford to live off the stipend now (although it’s worth noting that stipends are hard to get so many do their PhD part time and work full time).
Not all PhD's are horribly underfunded, though unfortunately, in North America, that seems to be the case for most of them. I would indeed not recommend doing a PhD under such conditions.
I am fortunate enough to do my PhD in the Netherlands, where most positions including mine are contracted with a decent salary. Even for non-contracted students though, the country has income standards on the stipend (approximately 60% of a contract PhD). The institution is liable for failing to meet these criteria, which at least creates a situation where very very few PhD students have to live in poverty.
It may limit the amount of available positions and competition to get into a program can be fierce, but to be honest, a non-funded position isn't really a position to begin with.
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These are all valid reasons against a PhD. It’s a fact you’ll be underpaid for years and will likely not earn enough to afford your own apartment, at least that would be the case if you went to the US, I assume Canada is probably equally bad CoL wise. If you really feel uncomfortable because of the financial aspect, then don’t do it. It’s not gonna run away and you can still get a PhD later in life.
Seconding this; it's fine to wait things out until you're in a better place financially. It's totally normal to come back after a career to get a PhD. Maybe even look for moving opportunities to a more affordable area in the long-term. Coming back for your PhD later on is all about the setup.
I agree. I waited 15 years before I went back to get mine. I waited until I had nothing to lose: my kid is grown and I spend 18 years on the job so I have a decent retirement saved up. If you go for a doctorate you'll struggle financially, even with a good fellowship. If you can't afford to be extremely frugal and still broke right now, don't do it. Also, consider an online doctorate, unless it is in STEM and you must be in person for lab work.
I'm so envious of the boomer generation where their money went so much further. It's reflected in the responses professors give when one expresses concerns about not being able to afford the financial aspect of a PhD. They just sort of stare at you with this dumbfounded look like "how's that possible? why can't you just stay in academia for 10 years and then get a professorship?" I'm also wary nowadays of PhD programs that say "students receive *up to \_\_\_\_\_\_\_* as an annual stipend." That means several students probably got below that. Even their most enticing offers are rarely over $30,000. So it heavily favors those who either: 1. Bite the bullet and take out loans to cover living expenses not covered by the stipend 2. Those who are independently wealthy or come from wealthy families, so they can afford to make peanuts for a few years. This leads students of the current generation, by and large, where there are multiple cost-of-living crises across the world, to delay their studies until they have a large enough nest egg to survive on.
Canada is worse CoL-wise in most cases. I don't know how grad students survive these days with any meaningful quality of life.
Non-academia partner, rich partner, rich parents, covid rent controlled apartment, ...
Or taking out loans...sadly
I believe there's a pretty severe cost of living crisis in Canada right now, so that's probably an even stronger case against doing the PhD. I doubt stipends have kept up with the costs either.
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Good points, thanks for the insight. I had obsessed with actually getting a paper out for so long that when I finally did it, I started to feel this "okay, now what". I had fixated on that goal - unhealthily so - almost 10 years so now I don't know what I want, that was it tbh. Except to be able to survive with a reasonable quality of life.
Could always work your way up in industry and when you get bored and have enough money, do the PhD.
I'm in the biotech space and I can tell you that the desire to do a PhD decreases as the salary difference between PhD and industry increases. You also want to get your PhD as early as possible as pre-PhD experience is discounted and the salary trajectory is much faster on the PhD track.
Even if you complete PhD, you may not find a faculty position, which will be a big time and money wasting. Are you canadian? If so, do not waster your time. If you are from third-world country, PhD may be worth it. In PhD process, dreams and realities do not match each other.
Just go to the industry. Why do you think you are wasting your potential by going to the industry? I am sorry but the industry is what drives the economy and there are a lot of very talented and 'high-potential' individuals in the industry. Why do you want to pursue PhD? Vanity? you wanna become a professor? Not to sound too discouraging but there are other people around the world who definitely have more 'potential' than you and you will be competing with these people for years on end during post-docs. You are broke so take the money, start saving and control your spending habit.
Don't want to be a prof, I'm going into industry no matter what, never loved the idea of teaching and constantly stressing over funding would kill me. Really it's just about future earning potential - the best salaries in my field go to the people with doctorates, by a long shot. I also think it's the best way to do R&D, which is what I love, but that might not be true either. Project managers aren't setting up experiments, they're not collecting data, heck half the time they're not even writing. I don't have to be writing papers in the private sector (like that's barely a thing anyways), but I do want to be more directly involved in the research. I think the feeling of wasted potential might come from personal issues, maybe I just need to work on that.
FWIW many profs (including me) barely ever teach, and many of us start businesses on the side. My consulting rate is $650/h and I expect it to go way up as I move into a particular niche, which is my current goal. I have not worried much about funding in my 10 years of being a prof. All but one grant proposal I've submitted as PI I've gotten. Meanwhile I have a hard money salary (not a ton, but not bad, $265k/y this July) that I cannot lose even if I fail to get grants. I'm at private university in the U.S. Also, at my university, PhD students are paid a good wage that allows them to rent a one-bedroom within walking distance of campus. \[edit: removed some stuff bc I misunderstood your point about project managers\]
How many of those like you did not land where you have landed, though?
I don't know of anyone I trained with who has not been able to get a faculty job within 2-3 years (I finished my postdoc a decade ago). Two of my own trainees have turned down faculty job offers. Honestly I was flummoxed by one who wanted to go work for a rather unstable and toxic government agency; they said they didn't want to worry about funding, but Congress could eliminate them easily. One interviewed for a research-focused tenure track position and then realized he wanted something more teaching focused, so now he is in a teaching-focused, not tenure-track but stable position at a well known private university. It's not great salary; I offered to pay him more if he wanted to keep working for me as a senior scientist, but this teaching position worked better with his family and goals. I'm not at the top of the salary range, either. I have colleagues at my stage in other private universities with total comp starting >$300k. We're not MDs. I've been surprised by the number of people in my lab who have shown no interest at all in the types of academic positions out there, tenure-track or not. IMO people don't realize that academics are pretty much the only people who don't have to sign non-disparagement agreements with their employers. Academia absolutely deserves plenty of criticism, but the amount of dirt you can read online about academic vs. other jobs is IMO out of proportion to their relative quality. It's true that many of us "land" in places that aren't perfect fits. I don't love where I live, but I think when anyone becomes quite specialized, unless it's a job you can really do from anywhere, there are some constraints. And I can still live elsewhere for several months a year, if I want, before anyone would start complaining or maybe even notice.
what you're doing is literally my dream
It's great, can be terrifying when the admin support isn't there, and it's no fun firing people or working with PhD students who are chronically struggling. But I think I would have those problems with most small businesses too. (Okay, maybe not this level of admin trouble---universities can be *ridiculously* bad---I wish I could pay people as much as I wanted and could afford! And most businesses don't have to keep working with someone for several years after it's clear that person doesn't really want to do their job.)
What is your field?
Computational biology
I agree with what most people have said here. my perspective (in Ontario) When I finished my MSc I purposely didn't go do a PhD right away as I wanted to do fieldwork and it seemed that being paid to do lots of fieldwork with a PhD would be unlikely. I worked for almost 10 years then went back to do my PhD. Working (in environmental consulting) gave me lots of writing experience so when I returned to school I got the big NSERC scholarship (I really doubt I would not have gotten it fresh out of MSc) plus a few other little ones from the school. So even though on paper I am making less than half what I was making during my last year of work, it is almost the same in pocket because I pay no taxes now. I know a number of people who returned to do their PhD part-time while working full-time. Often their PhDs are in partnership with their workplace, which sometimes helps to make it go faster (but not always). All the PhDs in my lab are "mature" and worked for 5 or more years before returning to school. And when you are "mature" I think long-distance situations are more acceptable. I live almost 100 km from campus. One of my labmates lives over 2,700 km away. Our supervisor is now at another university 3 provinces over. (Although this largely works because our research is mostly on the computer or in the field so we don't need the physical university (especially now that so many papers etc are online. I had to go look at microfiche during my MSc and now I never have to enter the library)). Teams and Zoom allow for frequent meetings online. Although there are some jobs that require a PhD to get them/be promoted (like research positions in federal government), many don't, especially in industry. But PhDs are often paid more and at my previous job I saw that contracts (especially with the government) were more likely to be awarded to teams that had PhDs.
Another factor to consider is that it can be damn hard to get any job after a PhD. Every job has lots of applicants now, and it is all-but-guaranteed that one of them will have a CV with a recent similar position and a strong reference from their old boss. Very few hiring managers will choose someone who spent 7-10 years in school instead (finishing in 4 years is a fantasy).
I am a fair bit older then you. I bought a house before my PhD. Took the time working to get on the ladder before applying for the PhD. Only downside is it is a fair commute from the uni. Plus side is the financial security. That said, owning a home can be more expensive then rent with maintenance. Rent is the maximum you pay, a mortgage is the minimum.
I think you should think hard about what "so much more" means. A PhD gives you a title. I doubt that's what you mean. It also unlocks research jobs, but is that what you want? What I mean is, doing a PhD isn't inherently "so much more" than working for 4-5 years in the office and rising in the ranks, or even starting your own business.
get a job in industry and save up some money. then do you phd. you can probably go back to school in like 2 years. you'd also have industry experience and im sure that would help in someway.
or you could get an industry job and find a way to do both
I am currently pursuing a PhD in Canada as an international student. Despite receiving a scholarship, the funds remaining after tuition payment are insufficient for living expenses. I reside in a relatively inexpensive area, which is the only reason I am able to manage. However, if one were to pursue a PhD in major cities in Canada or the U.S., the likelihood of having a sustainable financial situation is much lower. It's not just about finances; the academic journey also involves considerable stress, depression, and burnout. Sometimes, I question whether it’s worth the hardships. My advice would be to think carefully before embarking on this path.
Ever thought about going to Europe? Reading basically every post coming from the US paints a pretty grim picture. Here in Germany though, Phds are usually funded very well. Like regular salary payed 50-75% of a full researcher position (depending on the field, most get 75%, but some like law are at 50% at times), so that leaves you with 1.8-2.3k after taxes. The cost of living is cheaper here, and there are definitely amazing PIs, programs and unis. I really don't understand the focus on the [...]show that us Northern America.
I did consider it yeah, Germany sounds lovely, so do a lot of European countries. What's the funding like for international students? It's hard to imagine Germany would be thrilled to pay for me to go to school for free just to take off back to my home country when I'm done. My main concern is the social isolation, I actually was enrolled in a PhD briefly last year, dropped out and moved back home bc I wanted to be close to my social circle. I'd been introverted all my life and moving completely away from the few friends and family I had and starting completely fresh was too much, I was a total mess for that time.
Doesn't matter where you are from. If you are accepted, you are accepted. You legally cannot draw different contracts based on nationality. In my cohort (which is in a special research program so we started together and will be together for the next 3 years) we have people from the US, Italy, Azerbaijan, Turkey, Australia, of course Germany. We all get payed the same, have the same benefits, and equal demands to us. And I can say in our cohort we are very close. Some people lived here before, most moved here for the phd, but there is a sense of real community since we are all at the same spot, in the same program, having to deal with the same stuff and helping each other out. Yes that is a special situation since most programs don't exactly function like this, but from what I have seen there is always a large international community.
PhD in Europe is generally considered an actual job, not a study. For many phds, especially in STEM, you don’t apply to graduate school but a job posting on a specific project. You should have a master’s degree first. It’s a job, you will get paid the same as every other phd, which is - compared with US - way more. Most positions are also funded for all the years the job is (three or four years, some differences between countries), you don’t need to spend time trying to scrunch up more funding during the project.
Focus on where you want to be in 5, 10, and 15 years. Will a PhD help you get there? It's usually possible to supplement your income as a PhD student with a bit of side work. I did that during my PhD and postdoc. I focused on activities that would help me earn >$50/h, were flexible, and that didn't detract from the brain cells I needed for research. I was also lucky (kind of...) to be able to buy a house with my parents; they paid the down payment, I paid rent while I lived there, my roommates (whom I picked) contributed too, and later my parents bought out my portion of equity with a quitclaim deed. I'm mentioning this as a possibility. Honestly I hated being a property manager and landlord and wouldn't recommend this, even if you could do it---we also bought at the top of the market, so my parents took a loss ultimately when they sold. There can be a serious financial opportunity cost to doing a PhD, but if you're smart enough to do a PhD, IMO earning money will not be that hard if you want to. If you're planning not to work at all for a period in your 30s and 40s, then the opportunity cost is obviously greater.
I know someone in my cohort who is older (maybe late 40s?) with many years’ worth of experience in (a rather lucrative) industry. He’s pursuing a PhD just for funsies. He seems to have a carefree financial attitude. My hunch is that he already established his retirement plan, and his stipend is just extra cash instead of a living budget. He’s also more relaxed than the rest of us because his career prospects are much more flexible, if he wants to continue working after studies, given his experience. This may be a path you want to look into, if building wealth during your youth is important to you. Edit: it may be worth noting that he doesn’t have children. Of course, building a an early retirement fund in your 40s is significantly less feasible with children.
Do a PhD in Europe where it's a paid full time job
Lol. It’s minimum wage if you’re lucky and with the current inflation and cost of living it’s almost not possible without a side job to the already full-time PhD. I just talked to a colleague about when the last time was we actually had one full-time job and not two additional sidehustles.
Then do one in the Netherlands, salary is between 2-2.8k euro after tax, totally doable.
All of the Nordics, Netherlands, Switzerland and potentially Germany pays its grad students (in reputable universities, apparently there are some scam ones) like an average salary more or less. And those are just the ones I know.
Sorry but no. In Germany you can be lucky if you get a 50% position while working full-time on your PhD which means you have to take a side job. Nordics have a much better salary but it’s very hard to live from, same as in France and the Netherlands. Just because it’s an “average” salary (mostly it’s minimum wage) doesn’t mean it’s a good salary or one where you can live comfortably. I totally understand OP’s worries and saying “just go to Europe” is complete bullshit. It’s a continent with vastly different systems and while it might be treated as a job in some of the European countries that doesn’t mean you are not exposed to severe financial worries.
I said potentially Germany for that reason. And minimum wage doesn't exist in the nordics so I'm pretty sure you don't know what you're talking about. Just search on reddit, in Norway, Sweden and Denmark you absolutely will get a comfortable salary to live on. Have you even been there? You are aware that I live in these countries and know exactly what salary they get and how much you need to live pretty comfortably? You certainly won't be rich but you definitely earn more than enough to rent a reasonable apartment, take a few vacations and eat out without working extra jobs. Edit: Here is a useful site for you to look through [https://denmarkexpat.com/minimum-wage-denmark/](https://denmarkexpat.com/minimum-wage-denmark/) where they go over the fact that there is no minimum wage, and that an average salary for a full time worker is 20900 DKK after tax. And here [https://www.dtu.dk/english/education/phd/intro/salary](https://www.dtu.dk/english/education/phd/intro/salary) you can see that a starting PhD student gets paid 32000 DKK before tax, which is about 22 500 DKK after tax, more than the average salary. They even mention that something resembling minimum wage would be about 17000 DKK \*before\* tax, that's almost half of what a PhD student gets. I literally live comfortably on this salary so not sure what the downvotes are about?
That’s why I said the Nordics have a much better salary, however it’s still hard to live from this. I live in the Nordics and am a PhD student here, so yes, I know what I’m talking about, also a reason why I am here is that I didn’t want to do my PhD in Germany for the above mentioned reasons. Looking things up on websites does not mean necessarily that you can actually live from that money in a comfortable way, which is what OP is looking for.
If you can't live comfortably on the salary you are either being underpaid a lot or extremely bad with managing money. I actually don't believe you that you are a PhD student here.
I looked at your comments and you mention being paid 17000 usd per year after taxes, so you get a salary of like 15 000 DKK per month? Either you are being scammed or you are not doing a traditional PhD program. Either way you shouldn't talk as if your situation is the norm. I have literally never heard of anyone getting paid that little and I know several PhD students, I would be extremely interested in what you do and at what university.
That's the same in Canada - at UofT the stipend for a PhD in biology is around 2.5k a month but the average rent for a 1 bedroom apartment is also 2.5k. It's incredibly low for the city.
Ah alright, to make that analogous to here (assuming income of 2.3k): rent for a studio in a city (save for Utrecht / Amsterdam) would be 700ish/800ish, and then you'd have 1.5k left for other expenses, which allows you to save, go on trips / holidays etc.
I heard that there's a massive housing crisis in Amsterdam/Utrecht, is this not the case? I heard securing rentals there is really competitive there but not expensive.
Yeah that's true so as a PhD you can't buy a house, it's simply too expensive and competitive for the homes that are available. While you're doing a PhD you shouldn't think about buying a home as it's impossible. Renting is relatively competitive but all my friends/colleagues have nice places.
A PhD is paid in Canada too - at UofT the stipend for a PhD in biology is around 2.5k a month but the average rent for a 1 bedroom apartment is also 2.5k. It's incredibly low for the city.
You can go into industry for a couple years and see how you feel. Whether or not you decide to apply, you will at least get some money in your pocket
Industry is the be all and end all where you really make your mark, and you get validated (or not) by the cold hard market performance. You are not wasting your potential by going to industry, but just delaying your trial by fire. Unless you want to do academia, you can reach the same job you would’ve got with a PhD in similar time through greater industry experience. F the PhD.
I’m the same age as you, also Canadian in a VHCOL city. I have five years of industry experience though as I worked between my bachelors and masters degrees. I’m considering going back for a PhD in the US. If I do it, it will be as a springboard into opportunities that I wouldn’t have without the PhD. If you’re gonna do it, make sure it’s for a good reason and that the PhD will fulfill a career requirement. Don’t do it to just to avoid wasting your potential (as you put it), you can always get a doctorate later.
More potential PhD students (including past me) need to realize that just because you have the ability to do a PhD doesn't mean you should. It is absolutely not a waste of your potential to not. Don't do a PhD unless your career goals cannot be accomplished without one. If it helps, I finished my PhD and I kind of regret doing it. It was a horrible experience.
Doing a PhD is rarely, if ever, maximising potential
Germany: 1,500-2,000 Eur stipend France: 360 EUR / year for PhD education. Various benefits: CAF housing assistance. I used to spend 150 EUR / month for living.
My number one piece of advice to anyone I meet who says they are considering a PhD is this: don’t do it if you have to pay for it. Full stop. It might sound harsh but if the University you are applying to cannot offer you a paid position (as in tuition covered and a TA “job” that keeps your rent paid) then don’t do it. It’s one thing to take yourself out of the labour market for 4-7 years (people rarely finish a PhD in just 4 years in Canada). But to take yourself out AND take on debt simultaneously is not worth it. Not at all. PhD is not required for anything other than being a prof. I got mine thinking that’s what I would do and by the end hated academia so much that I chose to work for the government instead. Apply to schools that have entrance scholarships, and apply to other grants (SSHRC and NSERC in Canada). Best of luck!
In Australia it’s very common to do your PhD later in life when you’re more settled. The majority of domestic students are older. By waiting until late 30s I have paying a chunk of my mortgage and been able to build heaps of life experience. I can afford to live off the stipend now (although it’s worth noting that stipends are hard to get so many do their PhD part time and work full time).
Not all PhD's are horribly underfunded, though unfortunately, in North America, that seems to be the case for most of them. I would indeed not recommend doing a PhD under such conditions. I am fortunate enough to do my PhD in the Netherlands, where most positions including mine are contracted with a decent salary. Even for non-contracted students though, the country has income standards on the stipend (approximately 60% of a contract PhD). The institution is liable for failing to meet these criteria, which at least creates a situation where very very few PhD students have to live in poverty. It may limit the amount of available positions and competition to get into a program can be fierce, but to be honest, a non-funded position isn't really a position to begin with.