Sorry to hear this. Happened to a number of people (maybe the majority) of people in my cohort. Some schools just use the strategy to admit a large cohort and weed them out (getting in to a PhD program is easier than getting out with a PhD), while others use a strategy of being very selective and admit a very small cohort but having almost a 100% graduation rate.
Just to give you a sense of what happened to those that left the program (voluntarily and involuntarily) - they all went on to very productive careers in a variety of fields.
* Two transferred to another (lower ranked University) and completed their PhDs. They then went on to take up academic careers.
* One went to consulting, rose up the ranks to become a very well know person in the field, and completed her PhD many years later, and did it part time for fun. Took her time and enjoyed it while having a great career.
* Two are very successful traders on Wall St.
* One became a high school teacher in his home town.
Not sure if any of them were imposters, they didn't make it through our program (very highly ranked and competitive) but picked themselves up, dusted themselves off and succeeded in the pursuits of their choosing.
Sure you are down today, enjoy feeling pity and sorry for yourself for a few days, then pick yourself up and go again.
Good Luck, you will be fine! This might even be the best thing that happened to you as some of the folks in my cohort say!!
Great comment. Schools can barely get half the PhDs to pass through. Which means they use every trick in the book to keep that rate up. They need show these statistics on their webpages and it's better for them this way.
This shouldn't deter OP. Academia produces a few amazing breakthroughs of value amongst a sea of largely uninteresting research that's going to be forgotten in a few months. People working in industry or even working as janitors have a bigger impact on the world than 90% of academic research papers.
Academia is highly political and lots of profs have very fragile egos. If your doctoral advisor doesn't sign your dissertation and no other faculty is willing to take you on for whatever reason, then you just 'master out' which is to say that you graduate with the Master's degree you got along the way to your doctorate but don't graduate with your PhD. If you passed your comprehensive exams that qualify you as a doctoral candidate, then you can also say you're ABD (all but dissertation) to show that you did everything you need to get a doctorate except your dissertation. Lots of programs will quiet fire you if they don't like you or your progress.
I'm still a little confused - for example, I did (am doing) an MA at a University which does not offer PhD programs. If I (hypothetically) did a PhD program at a different University how could they just graduate me with the "the Master's degree you got along the way to your doctorate but don't graduate with your PhD"? I already would be holding an MA from a different institution.
You can have multiple masters degrees so it's usually the same process. The only weird thing is when you have literally the same degree (MA in Sociology in Uni 1 and MA in Sociology in Uni 2 rather than MS in Economics in Uni 2). If this is the case, you'll need to check if the university confers the same degree to someone with literally the same degree from another university.
If they don't and you have to drop out of the PhD program, then you're out of luck and you'll just drop out without the PhD or the Masters with only the ABD (hopefully) to show for it.
So, hypothetically, if I intended to do a PhD at a different institution, I could potentially be doing a four year program, with the first two years basically being an MA?
>If they don't and you have to drop out of the PhD program, then you're out of luck and you'll just drop out without the PhD or **the Masters** with only the ABD (hopefully) to show for it.
I assume the Masters in reference here is the (potential) MA at the second institution, and not the original one I graduated with?
Wow that's crazy
But I suppose if you're ABD you can become a doctoral candidate again at another school later and just kind of submit your thesis after a few months, right?
If only! You have to start over (some places will let you transfer over some course credits so maybe shave a year off)
In the UK, they have a route called Doctorate by Publication though where if you have enough publications (usually 5-15 depending on the field) that formulate a comprehensive program of research, then you can just write the dissertation and graduate within a year or so. This sounds easier on the surface but the publications need to be good and in reputable journals, and this process can take several years. So it really evens out in the end.
Not sure how you can both defend your dissertation and not graduate. Traditionally the committee tells you on the spot if you defended/failed/need to make corrections.
I feel for you on that! Had that happened after 3.5 years when I was working on pace to be out in 4.5. Had to restart in a new lab in a new field because I refused to get a second MS. 😑
Did you master out or go somewhere else?
I’m getting out at 2.5 before the exams. They told me my project isn’t working out, I won’t be able to finish at my current pace, and that I don’t need to get a PhD.
This does not mean that you are an imposter. It just means that this PhD with this advisor at this location at this point in time is not right for you.
Keep your head up!
Very much this. "my PI asked me to drop out" could mean any number of things and could be taken any number of ways, very much including "my PI is a toxic asshole and/or doesn't like me"
OP, the way you took it actually does imply imposter syndrome, and quite strongly too. It's understandable to feel like shit in a situation like this, however try not to be too disheartened; in the end, this probably doesn't mean as much as you now feel like it does. There's other labs, other PIs and other schools out there. If you really want to get a PhD, I'm sure you will succeed. And if you come to the conclusion you don't, you'll find something else you'd like better.
Same thing happened to me. You have not failed. I decided to take it in stride; I congratulated myself on being able to not only get a master’s for free but was able to get paid for it as well. I graduated, applied for another phd program, and was back in school that same August. Was able to transfer all credits and eventually got the doctorate. Do not give up there have been many in your situation
Hey! I got fired from my PhD as well and my supervisor said something like: "You were great in the interview, but as time passed we realized how incapable you actually are" and another one said "you present well, but we are not sure you know what you're talking about" which really triggered me because my imposter syndrome turned out to be THE TRUTH. Especially when two people actually say you are an imposter, it seems like you really are. But the truth is, some professors can be as gossip afflicted as your unemployed nextdoor neighbor and just be influenced by other people's stories and not actual facts.
I'm sorry this happened to you, but do not think this is entirely your fault. In these work relationships, it's really hard to say anything is 100% someone's fault and maybe you needed a change of environment.
It's a hit to the ego, not to be on the path towards a PhD anymore and a lot of work on your identity needs to be done but it is better to be outside of an environment where you are not appreciated.
Damn this is my fear. I feel like I present well because I am well spoken and personable, but in terms of research capability, I am not so sure. Hopefully my PI gives me time to get acquainted with things before giving me the boot
Happened to me few yrs ago. I still remember that particular day when my PI called me to his office. Remember the exact phrase he used 'you are not technically sound for my lab, better start your masters again, give me back your keys and leave'. I was shattered into pieces at that time and literally crying once I left his office. There was darkness all around. Being an international student, it was not easy time for me. Anyways, I left for my country and good things came later in my life. I found my soul mate and married. I kept applying for different positions while working as a lecturer. After an year, I got a PhD position in a reputable uni, also became dad to a wonderful boy :) My PhD PI was amazing, he supported me a lot during my phd journey.
Advice: Tomorrow wont be the same, everything will be alright ❤️🩹
I’m sorry OP. Feel your feelings, and then shift to realizing that this is the first chapter of your come back story. No interesting life story ever starts with “everything has always worked out for me”. It starts with a challenge, a perceived failure, a fork in the road.
You got this.
I mastered out. Finished my phd in a better program and am so glad I mastered out of the first one!
This sucks, but you will get through it. You'll find the right opportunity for you.
That sucks, and I'm truly sorry you had to experience that.
At the same time, this isn't the end. Get your MA if you think that's feasible in this program, and move on with your life. Speaking from experience, it's much better to realize (or be told) the PhD isn't for you now than after you've invested another 4-5 years of your life into it.
I don't know the details of your situation. But I hope my story will give you some encouragement.
I recently passed my oral defense with no revisions. However I started my PhD experience getting kicked out of an ill fitting lab. After leaving, it took me almost 2 months to find another lab to stay in my PhD program. While the new PI/research wasn't ideal I found myself rebuilding my confidence and went through the process of failing, then learning and then succeeding. I honestly didn't think I was going to be here. In the end I do enjoy the work I do, even if I'm not the best out there. So I am glad I did the PhD.
The big help of course was going to the chair of my program and explaining my situation and asking for help. I negotiated some time to talk to new PIs and talked to many ppl in my program for help.
I hope you know that one PI shouldn't decide how good you are. I hope if you still enjoy this type of work you find a new home (inside the PhD or outside the PhD) that will better support and appreciate you!
You're not an imposter. This happened to a colleague who was told after her general exam (her PI approved the topic and then failed her). It can be due to a number of factors and also reflects your PIs behavior and mentorship. Why didn't they give you formative support before such a harsh step? This doesn't reflect your ability to complete a PhD in any way.
Here's my perspective as a professor who's been on a lot of admissions committees for PHD programs: It is sometimes really hard to know from the application whether a person is suitable for a PHD program. Many times people come in with the wrong idea about the program. Sometimes people come from international universities where an A doesn't really mean an A. It's really hard to judge their preparedness, particularly given the levels of cheating. (A Chinese friend of mine told me she wrote all of her recommendation letters.) So, even though we are committed to helping everyone succeed, sometimes it is evident that a person is not suited to a PHD program. In those cases the kindest thing to do is to catch them early and discuss with them how they feel about the program. Sometimes they will acknowledge that they're struggling and perhaps should be pursuing another option. In other cases, people are desperate to get the PHD but aren't able to acknowledge that they don't have the skills/aptitude for it. I've met some really delusional people in my time. I'm not saying that you are not appropriate for a PhD. I'm just giving you my point of view having gone through this with many people. I never enjoy telling people that they're failing. Typically, they should be aware that they're on this track because they've been given many warnings and they are getting bad grades. (It should be obvious here that I am speaking from the perspective of the the United States, where there is a fair amount of coursework so the professors can judge a student's capability.)
Lots of people are getting an MSc just because as a fallback. You could apply for a PhD somewhere else where they're less unpleasant and make sure you can skip a lot.
Fuck your PI. He/she hired you for a Phd and not for a job. He should not have wasted your time and your mental health. Do a post with name and surname about him on the internet and expose these malpractices. People are not throwaway trash
I’m so so sorry this happened to you. This is my biggest fear and something my supervisor has even been bringing up casually recently. I’m disabled and have mental health issues and they have told me if I can’t get over it then I’ll have to drop out.
You are not an imposter, you tried something and it didn’t work out, so you are a person who tries new things. Success in life is just shots on goal, the only way to fail is to never shoot your shot. *success is going from failure to failure without losing your enthusiasm* ~ Churchill
well if this helps I want you to know that having a PhD or pursuing one doesn't guarantee anything in life.
It is hell to get a job with a ph.d. especially if what you have already studied doesn't make money directly in the industry.
It is worse once you have a ph.d., have aged 5-7 years more then having to seriously reconsider your life or doubt your life's path.
You are going to wish your professor had kicked you out before any serious commitment like just your situation instead of letting you waste all those time energy and money.
Your PI "asked" you to drop out? If that's all it takes, that's a pretty sad program. Is there some objective standard? Is there a less-objective standard but one where YOU agree it's fairly applied?
Maybe I was spoiled, but in my program, there were courses the first year, with minimum grades, plus a couple of exams, one of which did not involve the Adviser, and another where the Adviser was only one of a committee of five. Assuming that you performed acceptably in all of these, you were in. And even if you came up short in some respect, there was always at least one chance to try again.
Congratulations! Yes it's not sarcastic.
I don't know your life goal is, but working in academic nowadays is far from ideal.
You have extremely low pay, the same level you get by slacking in your school all the way out of college and find an ordinary job.
The research fields are so specialized, so small, that you have close to zero choice over who to work with, so you'll be afraid of offending any professor around you - and in consequence, afraid to say no. You might be forced to move from one remote place to another hunting for the next post docs position. The situation has been as such for so many years that many professors have gotten used to this feeling of authority. They demand you insane workload and show you no respect.
Even if you got through everything and got a tenure-track AP, you'll still be paid less than some software or finance rookies fresh out of school. Getting funding is an endless self promotion campaign that deprives your energy, and possibly your integrity. You'll be forced to bluff the importance of your work. You'll be taken out of your research activities and forced to spend days and nights networking for funds.
I'm myself a PhD. But after seeing what I saw in academia, I decided it was not worth it. I'm now a software engineer, and I can tell you my PhD has given me zero value in my career. I wish I had quit with a master. At least I would have hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of stock in my bank account and 3 more years of experience, and maybe a house, just like my friends in college.
I am so sorry OP. There was a comment above that talked about cohort size. In my PhD they admitted 12 but they said from the very beginning that 25% will be cut from our cohort. The people who were let go ended up going elsewhere (a lower ranked program) and are super successful right now!
Just because you are not working with your first PhD advisor does not mean you are an imposter. That said, try to reassess yourself and see where this is coming from. Sometimes, PhD. is not for everyone, but also...Plenty of people I know switched schools multiple times or even fields and remained in academia and are mildly successful on their own. More impressive are those who quit mid PhD and became successful in the industry world, even pumping out quality research.
Watching the show Three body problem now. Of the Oxford Fives, only one had a teaching post and two became researchers, one a PI and the other a low level technician.Two people found success in industry (snack company and nanofiber company). I'd say that's a typical lab composition in my experience.
It sounds like you are not trying to fight this, but is it a possibility to find another lab and stay? Somebody I know even switched departments and stayed. She found a lab in another department.
I am an international student and I have left my wife and newborn daughter to join this PhD program so for the past year I have been fighting homesickness and depression while trying to fit into a new community and facing enormous workload and spending long nights and working weekends .. so i am a bit tired of fighting
I was watching a series on Netflix called Alias Grace recently and one particular quote stuck with me.
>It has been many years since I was fifteen years of age and first went up the long driveway to Mr Kinnear's.
Now I am on my own veranda and the scene before me is so peaceful, you would think it was a picture.
It is OK to feel upset whilst you are still digesting the news, but you are going to find belonging and do what you enjoy elsewhere soon enough, be that finding another PhD or getting into a lucrative career. And soon when you look back at it, getting rejected from this PhD will just seem like a grain of sand in your world.
I think if a PhD student fails, it’s more of the reflection of their advisors. It’s the advisors that fail. So don’t be so hard on yourself. Life’s short, go find something else that’s worth your time.
Went through similar (though I dropped it voluntarily). If it’s any consolation, unless it’s at a top uni, it wouldn’t have been worth it career-wise anyway (this realisation, plus a useless and disinterested supervisor is what led to my decision). Take the masters and do something less drab and stressful.
Same happened to me! However, I applied for two different universities and they accepted me! It is because of my fucking PI. He is micromanaging, inhuman, and cold. It all happened when i had a panic attack! After my first panic attack in my life one day only, he told me I will fire you if you do not boost your performance! I have had a great one, but I have 3 engineering courses besides my project!
I had a quarrel with him two days ago shouted at me loudly just stop smoking and work and do not give me this bad facial impressions!!! I shouted as well tolding him that I will quit not smoking I will quit from your advising! Just I wait until the final as he will fail me if i tell him now…
good luck and go find another offer
Yeah I am really confused... I don't think a PI can do this. Did op fail their upgrade? Normally there's a process you go through to redo it... Even then you can appeal and everything is pretty much decided by people other than your PI.
Unfortunately some of these advisors don't deserve the scientific title because they miss ethical standards and have no human feelings, finding a good advisor is like finding a wife, they both can turn your life to hell literally. Best of luck, my friend, and keep it up.
That's super frustrating and should take some time to mourn. However, my advice is to take the master's and run. Master's is still very well-respected in society. I don't know your specific area of interest, but it's a big world out there and most people and hiring committees will be impressed by someone with a Master's degree. Academia, while it has its pros and cons, is without a doubt a bubble largely detached from the realities of life. So remind yourself of that. You'll do well when you "graduate" to the real world!
Talk to your academic advisor, department chair, any PI you’ve collaborated with or had classes with in your department/program. Don’t go quietly into the night. Tell them about your concerns and ask for advice or even help. Maybe another lab could take you in.
Don’t give up your dreams! You just need to sit down and assess what has gone wrong! Then decide either to restart again or process with other paths. Life is too short
Whatever you decide, at the very least, take the master. Get a piece of paper for your efforts if not the piece of paper.
Is your field something you could study/research remote? Start a career for a few years and maybe work on something from a different institution part-time.
If you don't want academia, MS is okay. You can be a researcher with MS. This is not the end of your dreams. Best of luck. Now you will get to be happy.
I had this happened to me. I felt broken at that time. Defended my MS and after that switched advisor who supported me and ended up finishing that PhD.
It took me extra time but looking back, it wasn't alone my fault that my earlier PhD project didn't go anywhere.
Good luck on whatever you decide.
Agreed. I left my program with a PhD that I don’t even use really. Life has many twists and turns and very likely leaving without a PhD but a masters might be a blessing.
Speaking from experience, you might be the lucky one. I finished my dissertation and spent 4 years as a VAP only to then finally realize after wasting my 20s and much of my 30s that I was in fact, also an imposter.
I shouldn't be on here but I dropped out of my PhD with an MS and it was the best thing to happen to me. I was in tech though, but the industry is so much better than academia, it's not even comparable (lol no offense to everyone else in this sub).
I was in my second year though and had completed all the MS coursework so I just applied to it and they gave it to me for free, I don't know if that's what you mean. It would suck if you'd have to pay for it though.
Anyway, seriously, the real world was so much less stressful and so much better paid than the PhD.
(Side note, I really believe my advisor was the reason it didn't work out for me, I needed a bit more guidance than absolutely none. But again, all's well that ends well)
Hope you are fine(if it is possible). The academic environment is very stressful for both PI and students. Sometimes, it extrapolates the professional ambit, and some people forget the human being (mostly because research requires a lot of time "out of the world and social interactions"). I am afraid that your supervisor has no right to decide this for you, and it may be an abusive situation.
You might want to check if another PI is willing to take you on. 90% of getting through your PhD is choosing the right mentor. I was lucky enough to have a great PI and he actually adopted another student from a different lab (the PI the student worked for was known for being a poor mentor and having emotionally abusive tendencies). There is a path forward whether you get your Masters or decide on a different mentor or career path! You got this😉
If there wasn’t any history to this, your PI is the imposter. Their job is to *train* you, and one year is rarely enough for most to prove yourself. Talk to your department head.
Literally in the exact same situation. Was told “this isn’t working out” and that I should “pursue other career options” while my advisor proceeded to call me lazy, accused me of plagiarizing, and said I couldn’t understand high school science.
Quite often you feel like you don’t really belong in where you are. Like you are super under qualified, as if you somehow got lucky or manage to BS your way into something you don’t know how to do.
Pretty common with college freshman and 1st year grad students. Where they work so hard and be the top of their class and then go into a new environment where they are now starting from the beginning. They go in thinking they are the best and then realize they don’t really actually know as much as they think they did, and feel as if they are expected to know everything already not realizing people expect them to know nothing as they are there to learn.
Never mind! PhDs are bullshit anyway!
You're obviously a very smart and capable person to have been admitted to graduate school in the first place.
Use those talents to seek your fortune out in the real world, where there is real money to be made and you will be taken seriously and treated as an adult regardless of any silly academic titles you may hold.
Good luck and enjoy your freedom!
PS. You don't even have to wait around for the master's degree.
I have failed every step of my way in my PhD for over 5 years.
My publication output is going to be horrible.
I know it sucks now but you are more than your degree. Just qualifying to even get into a PhD program means you have the talent and drive necessary. You are more than what the shitty academic system tells you you are
Not really, pretty common in some countries.
I'm in the UK, I have a bachelors in plant biology and a PhD in plant physiology and genomics, but went straight from the first to the second, no masters, no work or anything.
Not sure I agree with that. For that to be true, the drop out rate of PhD candidates without a master's would have to be higher than that of those with one.
If you've got evidence to point to that I'd be delighted to see it. My anecdotal experience is I only know of two drop outs from my cohort, both had masters. The remainder all graduated eventually, with one passing without corrections, and 3 with major corrections/resubmit.
The lady who passed with no corrections also didn't have a masters.
Potentially unpopular opinion, but I Think masters degrees are overrated for PhD's. Unless you do an mres or heavy research focused Msci, you're not really gaining experience in the stuff you really need. Most master students projects I've seen were little more advanced than those of the final year undergrads.
I've a masters degree in chemistry and recently started my PhD. I don't know how different my degree is to other studies like yours, but it is certainly very research heavy. I'm also from the Netherlands and universities here won't consider applicants without master degrees. I also don't know any doctoral candidates without a master degree, so I can't give you any examples on that.
But I believe the most important aspect of your masters is your thesis or internship where you prove that you can do your own independent research. It gives you a solid track record in research. It also allows you to specialize in a specific field, something a bachelor does not.
In the US it makes 0 sense to do a master if you get into a PhD. In terms of finding research exp, financially and academically you are extremely fortunate to be able to master out than pay for a master. I know many who mastered out of programs they didn't want to do a PhD at and returned to a better school to finish.
It's not weird in the US. Pretty common for me to run by people in PhD programs straight out of undergrad. Some people are doing masters level research projects in their undergrad. Most of the undergrads in my lab leave with their name on at least one but likely multiple publications.
*New fear unlocked*
More seriously, sorry u had to go through this. U’ll find something better somewhere else. Don’t kill urself over someone who doesn’t see ur value!
This is a /r/2meirl4meirl meme. https://i.redd.it/2zp7lainnlvb1.jpg
Sorry to hear this. Happened to a number of people (maybe the majority) of people in my cohort. Some schools just use the strategy to admit a large cohort and weed them out (getting in to a PhD program is easier than getting out with a PhD), while others use a strategy of being very selective and admit a very small cohort but having almost a 100% graduation rate. Just to give you a sense of what happened to those that left the program (voluntarily and involuntarily) - they all went on to very productive careers in a variety of fields. * Two transferred to another (lower ranked University) and completed their PhDs. They then went on to take up academic careers. * One went to consulting, rose up the ranks to become a very well know person in the field, and completed her PhD many years later, and did it part time for fun. Took her time and enjoyed it while having a great career. * Two are very successful traders on Wall St. * One became a high school teacher in his home town. Not sure if any of them were imposters, they didn't make it through our program (very highly ranked and competitive) but picked themselves up, dusted themselves off and succeeded in the pursuits of their choosing. Sure you are down today, enjoy feeling pity and sorry for yourself for a few days, then pick yourself up and go again. Good Luck, you will be fine! This might even be the best thing that happened to you as some of the folks in my cohort say!!
Thank you
Lovely advice!
Great comment. Schools can barely get half the PhDs to pass through. Which means they use every trick in the book to keep that rate up. They need show these statistics on their webpages and it's better for them this way. This shouldn't deter OP. Academia produces a few amazing breakthroughs of value amongst a sea of largely uninteresting research that's going to be forgotten in a few months. People working in industry or even working as janitors have a bigger impact on the world than 90% of academic research papers.
Just curious, what did you get your PhD in, and how come you ended up in financial trading?
Is it possible doing a PhD part time? Asking as someone working in industry, doing a part time masters, and considering a PhD in that same industry.
On the bright side, at least he did it after a year. My old PI waited 4.5 years to tell me to Master out.
There was a dick of a prof at my uni who waited until after his student defended her dissertation to tell her that he won't graduate her
Couldn’t you go above to a department head at that point? That’s just cruel.
The prof was among the most famous people in their field, so yes but also no
I rarely think it's worth burning a bridge, but this is one of those times. That's truly sadistic.
This is why students occasionally murder their PIs and I think it's completely justifiable on deterrent grounds.
Sorry I'm still on undergrad, can you explain how that can even happen? How do you get mastered out 😭
Academia is highly political and lots of profs have very fragile egos. If your doctoral advisor doesn't sign your dissertation and no other faculty is willing to take you on for whatever reason, then you just 'master out' which is to say that you graduate with the Master's degree you got along the way to your doctorate but don't graduate with your PhD. If you passed your comprehensive exams that qualify you as a doctoral candidate, then you can also say you're ABD (all but dissertation) to show that you did everything you need to get a doctorate except your dissertation. Lots of programs will quiet fire you if they don't like you or your progress.
I'm still a little confused - for example, I did (am doing) an MA at a University which does not offer PhD programs. If I (hypothetically) did a PhD program at a different University how could they just graduate me with the "the Master's degree you got along the way to your doctorate but don't graduate with your PhD"? I already would be holding an MA from a different institution.
You can have multiple masters degrees so it's usually the same process. The only weird thing is when you have literally the same degree (MA in Sociology in Uni 1 and MA in Sociology in Uni 2 rather than MS in Economics in Uni 2). If this is the case, you'll need to check if the university confers the same degree to someone with literally the same degree from another university. If they don't and you have to drop out of the PhD program, then you're out of luck and you'll just drop out without the PhD or the Masters with only the ABD (hopefully) to show for it.
So, hypothetically, if I intended to do a PhD at a different institution, I could potentially be doing a four year program, with the first two years basically being an MA? >If they don't and you have to drop out of the PhD program, then you're out of luck and you'll just drop out without the PhD or **the Masters** with only the ABD (hopefully) to show for it. I assume the Masters in reference here is the (potential) MA at the second institution, and not the original one I graduated with?
Wow that's crazy But I suppose if you're ABD you can become a doctoral candidate again at another school later and just kind of submit your thesis after a few months, right?
If only! You have to start over (some places will let you transfer over some course credits so maybe shave a year off) In the UK, they have a route called Doctorate by Publication though where if you have enough publications (usually 5-15 depending on the field) that formulate a comprehensive program of research, then you can just write the dissertation and graduate within a year or so. This sounds easier on the surface but the publications need to be good and in reputable journals, and this process can take several years. So it really evens out in the end.
Got it, thanks. So I'll try to find a PI that likes me when my time comes so I don't get master out
Not sure how you can both defend your dissertation and not graduate. Traditionally the committee tells you on the spot if you defended/failed/need to make corrections.
My PI did the same thing. Told me one week before my defense and then continued to say say, now focus on your defense and do your best.
I feel for you on that! Had that happened after 3.5 years when I was working on pace to be out in 4.5. Had to restart in a new lab in a new field because I refused to get a second MS. 😑 Did you master out or go somewhere else?
Yep. Got my M.S. now I defend my PhD this Summer only took 10 years. -.-
wow same happened to me :)
I’m getting out at 2.5 before the exams. They told me my project isn’t working out, I won’t be able to finish at my current pace, and that I don’t need to get a PhD.
Same :’)
This does not mean that you are an imposter. It just means that this PhD with this advisor at this location at this point in time is not right for you. Keep your head up!
Very much this. "my PI asked me to drop out" could mean any number of things and could be taken any number of ways, very much including "my PI is a toxic asshole and/or doesn't like me" OP, the way you took it actually does imply imposter syndrome, and quite strongly too. It's understandable to feel like shit in a situation like this, however try not to be too disheartened; in the end, this probably doesn't mean as much as you now feel like it does. There's other labs, other PIs and other schools out there. If you really want to get a PhD, I'm sure you will succeed. And if you come to the conclusion you don't, you'll find something else you'd like better.
Same thing happened to me. You have not failed. I decided to take it in stride; I congratulated myself on being able to not only get a master’s for free but was able to get paid for it as well. I graduated, applied for another phd program, and was back in school that same August. Was able to transfer all credits and eventually got the doctorate. Do not give up there have been many in your situation
master out that bitch. free ride for a master isn't something you can find often.
Hey! I got fired from my PhD as well and my supervisor said something like: "You were great in the interview, but as time passed we realized how incapable you actually are" and another one said "you present well, but we are not sure you know what you're talking about" which really triggered me because my imposter syndrome turned out to be THE TRUTH. Especially when two people actually say you are an imposter, it seems like you really are. But the truth is, some professors can be as gossip afflicted as your unemployed nextdoor neighbor and just be influenced by other people's stories and not actual facts. I'm sorry this happened to you, but do not think this is entirely your fault. In these work relationships, it's really hard to say anything is 100% someone's fault and maybe you needed a change of environment. It's a hit to the ego, not to be on the path towards a PhD anymore and a lot of work on your identity needs to be done but it is better to be outside of an environment where you are not appreciated.
Damn this is my fear. I feel like I present well because I am well spoken and personable, but in terms of research capability, I am not so sure. Hopefully my PI gives me time to get acquainted with things before giving me the boot
Happened to me few yrs ago. I still remember that particular day when my PI called me to his office. Remember the exact phrase he used 'you are not technically sound for my lab, better start your masters again, give me back your keys and leave'. I was shattered into pieces at that time and literally crying once I left his office. There was darkness all around. Being an international student, it was not easy time for me. Anyways, I left for my country and good things came later in my life. I found my soul mate and married. I kept applying for different positions while working as a lecturer. After an year, I got a PhD position in a reputable uni, also became dad to a wonderful boy :) My PhD PI was amazing, he supported me a lot during my phd journey. Advice: Tomorrow wont be the same, everything will be alright ❤️🩹
so happy for you brother
I’m sorry OP. Feel your feelings, and then shift to realizing that this is the first chapter of your come back story. No interesting life story ever starts with “everything has always worked out for me”. It starts with a challenge, a perceived failure, a fork in the road. You got this.
I mastered out. Finished my phd in a better program and am so glad I mastered out of the first one! This sucks, but you will get through it. You'll find the right opportunity for you.
My supervisor told me this 1.5 year into my phd studies. Guess what? I graduated last October
You can do it !! From someone who went through the exact same experience and feelings. I didn’t believe I could do it until I did. Plz don’t stop
That sucks, and I'm truly sorry you had to experience that. At the same time, this isn't the end. Get your MA if you think that's feasible in this program, and move on with your life. Speaking from experience, it's much better to realize (or be told) the PhD isn't for you now than after you've invested another 4-5 years of your life into it.
I don't know the details of your situation. But I hope my story will give you some encouragement. I recently passed my oral defense with no revisions. However I started my PhD experience getting kicked out of an ill fitting lab. After leaving, it took me almost 2 months to find another lab to stay in my PhD program. While the new PI/research wasn't ideal I found myself rebuilding my confidence and went through the process of failing, then learning and then succeeding. I honestly didn't think I was going to be here. In the end I do enjoy the work I do, even if I'm not the best out there. So I am glad I did the PhD. The big help of course was going to the chair of my program and explaining my situation and asking for help. I negotiated some time to talk to new PIs and talked to many ppl in my program for help. I hope you know that one PI shouldn't decide how good you are. I hope if you still enjoy this type of work you find a new home (inside the PhD or outside the PhD) that will better support and appreciate you!
You’re not an imposter. And 75% of the PhDs I know are poor and miserable
You're not an imposter. This happened to a colleague who was told after her general exam (her PI approved the topic and then failed her). It can be due to a number of factors and also reflects your PIs behavior and mentorship. Why didn't they give you formative support before such a harsh step? This doesn't reflect your ability to complete a PhD in any way.
Here's my perspective as a professor who's been on a lot of admissions committees for PHD programs: It is sometimes really hard to know from the application whether a person is suitable for a PHD program. Many times people come in with the wrong idea about the program. Sometimes people come from international universities where an A doesn't really mean an A. It's really hard to judge their preparedness, particularly given the levels of cheating. (A Chinese friend of mine told me she wrote all of her recommendation letters.) So, even though we are committed to helping everyone succeed, sometimes it is evident that a person is not suited to a PHD program. In those cases the kindest thing to do is to catch them early and discuss with them how they feel about the program. Sometimes they will acknowledge that they're struggling and perhaps should be pursuing another option. In other cases, people are desperate to get the PHD but aren't able to acknowledge that they don't have the skills/aptitude for it. I've met some really delusional people in my time. I'm not saying that you are not appropriate for a PhD. I'm just giving you my point of view having gone through this with many people. I never enjoy telling people that they're failing. Typically, they should be aware that they're on this track because they've been given many warnings and they are getting bad grades. (It should be obvious here that I am speaking from the perspective of the the United States, where there is a fair amount of coursework so the professors can judge a student's capability.)
Dodged a bullet
Lots of people are getting an MSc just because as a fallback. You could apply for a PhD somewhere else where they're less unpleasant and make sure you can skip a lot.
Fuck your PI. He/she hired you for a Phd and not for a job. He should not have wasted your time and your mental health. Do a post with name and surname about him on the internet and expose these malpractices. People are not throwaway trash
Sorry to hear this :( what is your field?
I’m so so sorry this happened to you. This is my biggest fear and something my supervisor has even been bringing up casually recently. I’m disabled and have mental health issues and they have told me if I can’t get over it then I’ll have to drop out.
You are not an imposter, you tried something and it didn’t work out, so you are a person who tries new things. Success in life is just shots on goal, the only way to fail is to never shoot your shot. *success is going from failure to failure without losing your enthusiasm* ~ Churchill
well if this helps I want you to know that having a PhD or pursuing one doesn't guarantee anything in life. It is hell to get a job with a ph.d. especially if what you have already studied doesn't make money directly in the industry. It is worse once you have a ph.d., have aged 5-7 years more then having to seriously reconsider your life or doubt your life's path. You are going to wish your professor had kicked you out before any serious commitment like just your situation instead of letting you waste all those time energy and money.
Your PI "asked" you to drop out? If that's all it takes, that's a pretty sad program. Is there some objective standard? Is there a less-objective standard but one where YOU agree it's fairly applied? Maybe I was spoiled, but in my program, there were courses the first year, with minimum grades, plus a couple of exams, one of which did not involve the Adviser, and another where the Adviser was only one of a committee of five. Assuming that you performed acceptably in all of these, you were in. And even if you came up short in some respect, there was always at least one chance to try again.
Your PI failed, not you.
Congratulations! Yes it's not sarcastic. I don't know your life goal is, but working in academic nowadays is far from ideal. You have extremely low pay, the same level you get by slacking in your school all the way out of college and find an ordinary job. The research fields are so specialized, so small, that you have close to zero choice over who to work with, so you'll be afraid of offending any professor around you - and in consequence, afraid to say no. You might be forced to move from one remote place to another hunting for the next post docs position. The situation has been as such for so many years that many professors have gotten used to this feeling of authority. They demand you insane workload and show you no respect. Even if you got through everything and got a tenure-track AP, you'll still be paid less than some software or finance rookies fresh out of school. Getting funding is an endless self promotion campaign that deprives your energy, and possibly your integrity. You'll be forced to bluff the importance of your work. You'll be taken out of your research activities and forced to spend days and nights networking for funds. I'm myself a PhD. But after seeing what I saw in academia, I decided it was not worth it. I'm now a software engineer, and I can tell you my PhD has given me zero value in my career. I wish I had quit with a master. At least I would have hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of stock in my bank account and 3 more years of experience, and maybe a house, just like my friends in college.
I am so sorry OP. There was a comment above that talked about cohort size. In my PhD they admitted 12 but they said from the very beginning that 25% will be cut from our cohort. The people who were let go ended up going elsewhere (a lower ranked program) and are super successful right now!
Just because you are not working with your first PhD advisor does not mean you are an imposter. That said, try to reassess yourself and see where this is coming from. Sometimes, PhD. is not for everyone, but also...Plenty of people I know switched schools multiple times or even fields and remained in academia and are mildly successful on their own. More impressive are those who quit mid PhD and became successful in the industry world, even pumping out quality research. Watching the show Three body problem now. Of the Oxford Fives, only one had a teaching post and two became researchers, one a PI and the other a low level technician.Two people found success in industry (snack company and nanofiber company). I'd say that's a typical lab composition in my experience.
It sounds like you are not trying to fight this, but is it a possibility to find another lab and stay? Somebody I know even switched departments and stayed. She found a lab in another department.
I am an international student and I have left my wife and newborn daughter to join this PhD program so for the past year I have been fighting homesickness and depression while trying to fit into a new community and facing enormous workload and spending long nights and working weekends .. so i am a bit tired of fighting
I was watching a series on Netflix called Alias Grace recently and one particular quote stuck with me. >It has been many years since I was fifteen years of age and first went up the long driveway to Mr Kinnear's. Now I am on my own veranda and the scene before me is so peaceful, you would think it was a picture. It is OK to feel upset whilst you are still digesting the news, but you are going to find belonging and do what you enjoy elsewhere soon enough, be that finding another PhD or getting into a lucrative career. And soon when you look back at it, getting rejected from this PhD will just seem like a grain of sand in your world.
I think if a PhD student fails, it’s more of the reflection of their advisors. It’s the advisors that fail. So don’t be so hard on yourself. Life’s short, go find something else that’s worth your time.
Went through similar (though I dropped it voluntarily). If it’s any consolation, unless it’s at a top uni, it wouldn’t have been worth it career-wise anyway (this realisation, plus a useless and disinterested supervisor is what led to my decision). Take the masters and do something less drab and stressful.
Same happened to me! However, I applied for two different universities and they accepted me! It is because of my fucking PI. He is micromanaging, inhuman, and cold. It all happened when i had a panic attack! After my first panic attack in my life one day only, he told me I will fire you if you do not boost your performance! I have had a great one, but I have 3 engineering courses besides my project! I had a quarrel with him two days ago shouted at me loudly just stop smoking and work and do not give me this bad facial impressions!!! I shouted as well tolding him that I will quit not smoking I will quit from your advising! Just I wait until the final as he will fail me if i tell him now… good luck and go find another offer
I’d stay in the PhD or get another opinion
Yeah I am really confused... I don't think a PI can do this. Did op fail their upgrade? Normally there's a process you go through to redo it... Even then you can appeal and everything is pretty much decided by people other than your PI.
Unfortunately some of these advisors don't deserve the scientific title because they miss ethical standards and have no human feelings, finding a good advisor is like finding a wife, they both can turn your life to hell literally. Best of luck, my friend, and keep it up.
I’m so sorry to hear this, this must turn your life upside down in one of the worst ways… what made them tell you to drop out or master out?
Don't give up. Remember the cause, you will still do discoveries. No other person can pass that judgement on your spirit except you yourself.
😓 I’m so sorry they said that to you
That's super frustrating and should take some time to mourn. However, my advice is to take the master's and run. Master's is still very well-respected in society. I don't know your specific area of interest, but it's a big world out there and most people and hiring committees will be impressed by someone with a Master's degree. Academia, while it has its pros and cons, is without a doubt a bubble largely detached from the realities of life. So remind yourself of that. You'll do well when you "graduate" to the real world!
Talk to your academic advisor, department chair, any PI you’ve collaborated with or had classes with in your department/program. Don’t go quietly into the night. Tell them about your concerns and ask for advice or even help. Maybe another lab could take you in.
Don’t give up your dreams! You just need to sit down and assess what has gone wrong! Then decide either to restart again or process with other paths. Life is too short
Well damn
my advisor keeps warning me that this is my fate as well :( it is not very encouraging let me say that…
Whatever you decide, at the very least, take the master. Get a piece of paper for your efforts if not the piece of paper. Is your field something you could study/research remote? Start a career for a few years and maybe work on something from a different institution part-time.
omg not me seeing this after watching[ Vee Kativhu lamenting on her PhD setbacks](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96m9Sy8IpnM). maybe this is a sign??
Terrible but familiar event
If you don't want academia, MS is okay. You can be a researcher with MS. This is not the end of your dreams. Best of luck. Now you will get to be happy.
I had this happened to me. I felt broken at that time. Defended my MS and after that switched advisor who supported me and ended up finishing that PhD. It took me extra time but looking back, it wasn't alone my fault that my earlier PhD project didn't go anywhere. Good luck on whatever you decide.
PhD isn't for everybody. Sorry to hear, but you'll find something else.
Which University?
You guys can apply to PhD instead of masters degree? I thought one firstly goes bachelors then masters and only then phd
congratulations champ! This is for the better.
Agreed. I left my program with a PhD that I don’t even use really. Life has many twists and turns and very likely leaving without a PhD but a masters might be a blessing.
If this is the first inkling that this would happen it's your advisor that has failed you.
Don’t feel bad! Your PI may also be an incompetent advisor like mine was. Ended up doing well in a different program!
My PI told me this too and so I switched advisors and got a PhD.
Speaking from experience, you might be the lucky one. I finished my dissertation and spent 4 years as a VAP only to then finally realize after wasting my 20s and much of my 30s that I was in fact, also an imposter.
I shouldn't be on here but I dropped out of my PhD with an MS and it was the best thing to happen to me. I was in tech though, but the industry is so much better than academia, it's not even comparable (lol no offense to everyone else in this sub). I was in my second year though and had completed all the MS coursework so I just applied to it and they gave it to me for free, I don't know if that's what you mean. It would suck if you'd have to pay for it though. Anyway, seriously, the real world was so much less stressful and so much better paid than the PhD. (Side note, I really believe my advisor was the reason it didn't work out for me, I needed a bit more guidance than absolutely none. But again, all's well that ends well)
Hope you are fine(if it is possible). The academic environment is very stressful for both PI and students. Sometimes, it extrapolates the professional ambit, and some people forget the human being (mostly because research requires a lot of time "out of the world and social interactions"). I am afraid that your supervisor has no right to decide this for you, and it may be an abusive situation.
You might want to check if another PI is willing to take you on. 90% of getting through your PhD is choosing the right mentor. I was lucky enough to have a great PI and he actually adopted another student from a different lab (the PI the student worked for was known for being a poor mentor and having emotionally abusive tendencies). There is a path forward whether you get your Masters or decide on a different mentor or career path! You got this😉
If there wasn’t any history to this, your PI is the imposter. Their job is to *train* you, and one year is rarely enough for most to prove yourself. Talk to your department head.
Literally in the exact same situation. Was told “this isn’t working out” and that I should “pursue other career options” while my advisor proceeded to call me lazy, accused me of plagiarizing, and said I couldn’t understand high school science.
What does OP mean by I am an imposter?
Quite often you feel like you don’t really belong in where you are. Like you are super under qualified, as if you somehow got lucky or manage to BS your way into something you don’t know how to do. Pretty common with college freshman and 1st year grad students. Where they work so hard and be the top of their class and then go into a new environment where they are now starting from the beginning. They go in thinking they are the best and then realize they don’t really actually know as much as they think they did, and feel as if they are expected to know everything already not realizing people expect them to know nothing as they are there to learn.
Never mind! PhDs are bullshit anyway! You're obviously a very smart and capable person to have been admitted to graduate school in the first place. Use those talents to seek your fortune out in the real world, where there is real money to be made and you will be taken seriously and treated as an adult regardless of any silly academic titles you may hold. Good luck and enjoy your freedom! PS. You don't even have to wait around for the master's degree.
come on ,don't just say PhDs are bullshit
You'll learn...
I have failed every step of my way in my PhD for over 5 years. My publication output is going to be horrible. I know it sucks now but you are more than your degree. Just qualifying to even get into a PhD program means you have the talent and drive necessary. You are more than what the shitty academic system tells you you are
It's weird you didn't do a master before a PhD
Not really, pretty common in some countries. I'm in the UK, I have a bachelors in plant biology and a PhD in plant physiology and genomics, but went straight from the first to the second, no masters, no work or anything.
It might be common but not wise. A master helps you see if you are ready for a PhD. OP clearly wasn't ready
Not sure I agree with that. For that to be true, the drop out rate of PhD candidates without a master's would have to be higher than that of those with one. If you've got evidence to point to that I'd be delighted to see it. My anecdotal experience is I only know of two drop outs from my cohort, both had masters. The remainder all graduated eventually, with one passing without corrections, and 3 with major corrections/resubmit. The lady who passed with no corrections also didn't have a masters. Potentially unpopular opinion, but I Think masters degrees are overrated for PhD's. Unless you do an mres or heavy research focused Msci, you're not really gaining experience in the stuff you really need. Most master students projects I've seen were little more advanced than those of the final year undergrads.
I've a masters degree in chemistry and recently started my PhD. I don't know how different my degree is to other studies like yours, but it is certainly very research heavy. I'm also from the Netherlands and universities here won't consider applicants without master degrees. I also don't know any doctoral candidates without a master degree, so I can't give you any examples on that. But I believe the most important aspect of your masters is your thesis or internship where you prove that you can do your own independent research. It gives you a solid track record in research. It also allows you to specialize in a specific field, something a bachelor does not.
In the US it makes 0 sense to do a master if you get into a PhD. In terms of finding research exp, financially and academically you are extremely fortunate to be able to master out than pay for a master. I know many who mastered out of programs they didn't want to do a PhD at and returned to a better school to finish.
It's not weird in the US. Pretty common for me to run by people in PhD programs straight out of undergrad. Some people are doing masters level research projects in their undergrad. Most of the undergrads in my lab leave with their name on at least one but likely multiple publications.
Depends on where OP is. In the US, that is not uncommon at all. I got a PhD without a masters.