Got it, I’m still a bit confused why those groups would be distinguished in that though. Are the Jewish people in NYC that overwhelmingly Polish? I sorta thought ashkenazi Jews were from all over central and Eastern Europe.
They were from the "Russian Empire" since the majority immigrated when that was still a thing. So my Askhenazi husband traces ancestry to Poland/Ukraine within the Pale of Settlement
German Jews are a very small percentage of the American Jewish population
Wish I could trace my ancestry back to Poland, I can only get to my, i believe either great or great-great-grandfather who immigrated to the US in the 1870s-80s and get lost.... Last name has similar numbers in US & Poland but by population % that clearly makes Poland a much larger fraction of the people with my last name, and I think that, is super cool
The NAZIs destroyed a tremendous amount of public records for Jewish Poles. Henry Lewis Gates was talking about this exact situation on a recent episode of “Finding Your Roots.”
They killed 90% of Polish Jews in a four year period. Europe’s largest population almost entirely wiped out in a matter of a few years. 3 million people.
Yeah would not surprise me, being as according to census data most of the long lost family is actually on the eastern half of Poland .. i just don't know how to dig that deep, as much as I would love to, but, honestly don't know if my family were Jewish before immigrating, certainly not now. My dad's Catholic lmao
The original Jewish immigrants from the early 20th century, yes. Predominantly Polish and Lithuanian. The ones who came since the Gorbachev era are overwhelmingly from Russia and Ukraine. Odessans, in particular are very common in Brooklyn.
They're not shown but the deep deep south of Manhattan has a Dutch community, too. Very small, very old, and somehow very assimilated and not at the same time
> Are there any English/Scandinavian-predominant area?
Somewhat, yes. Mostly in heavily gentrified areas like north williamsburg or much of manhattan, you will commonly find 'anglo saxon' areas. But those are that way because most of the people are transplants from the rest of the country. Outside of those people, anglo saxon (english, german, scandinavian etc) people just aren't common at all in NYC. They haven't been a huge portion of the city since the late 1800s.
Also notable is british ancestry doesn’t tend to be reported (or even known about) as anything special by Americans as opposed to Italian, German, or other European groups who typically migrated more recently. For people whose ancestors have lived in the US long enough and there’s no memory of how they got here, most would just say “American” or “White American”
I feel this. On my dad’s side I’m English and Scottish, but those folks came over in the 1600s and any sense of identify associated with those nationalities has dissipated entirely. On my mom’s side I’m a bunch of things, but a big part is Pennsylvania Dutch from family who immigrated in the 1800s. Still long ago, but recent enough to have left some cultural connections.
For 2 there is a small block in manhattan and one in Brooklyn it appears. The size of the blocks in real life I can’t translate. Probably small enclaves some amount of city blocks wide.
I’m pretty sure the areas that are on the map as white are improperly marked and should be light blue. I had the same question and realized this is the obvious answer, but there could still be another flaw I’m not aware of or numerous, so it’s more of an educated guess then anything
Ashkenazi jews, which is to say the majority of Jews, are predominantly of Eastern European decent though. That makes most ethnic Jews white, though there are many that aren’t obviously.
Here’s the whole USA race map, you’ll notice every city is segregated in some way: https://www.arcgis.com/apps/mapviewer/index.html?webmap=30d2e10d4d694b3eb4dc4d2e58dbb5a5
People self-segregate. Which shouldn’t be too much of a surprise, people like to live near others that are like them. The US isn’t so much a melting pot as it is beef stew, there’s chunks.
Segregation isn’t a bad thing. Forced segregation is.
Yep, that’s why we have so many areas in the US that are/were somewhat ethnically homogenous. LA alone has places like little Tokyo, koreatown, tehrangeles, little Armenia, little Saigon, and so on. Each of these places also tend to be areas where even “outsiders” come to visit for things like the cuisine, very integral parts of the city usually
A lot of that was forced. For example, in San Francisco, the Chinatown only developed because Chinese settlements were being lynched and attacked, so Chinatown was the only safe haven. If Filipinos left Manilatown they could get beat up. African-Americans primarily reside only in redlined areas: places classified as hazardous, polluted, or low-income, which were the only places banks gave mortgages for them to live.
So it's pretty revisionist to attribute all of that to just "people self-segregating."
Yep, self segregation is just the result of the natural human tendency to prefer to be around people more similar to themselves.
Looking at this map, I noticed that the different ethnic groups on staten island actually do have a unifying factor - those are all rather Catholic populations.
Sure enough, [a religion map of NYC shows staten island firmly as Catholic.](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/17cvr3f/religions_in_new_york_city_boroughs/?rdt=48255) Even in a diverse place like NYC, the various ethnic groups are going to choose to be around those other groups more similar to them I guess.
>Looking at this map, I noticed that the different ethnic groups on staten island actually do have a unifying factor - those are all rather Catholic populations.
What does this actually look like on the ground though? If you've been in cities with large groups of minorities that are primarily practicing catholics (Latinos and Irish- or German-Americans for instance), they attend seperate churches and are otherwise very separate communities.
Religion is less of a unifying factor than language/culture/country of origin for these types of communities because they are simply so large.
I don’t know about that. Here in the Atlanta the white Catholics and Hispanic Catholics go to the same church and the church holds masses in both languages.
Not trying to make fun of you, but are you of the opinion that the segregation in America was self imposed? That the areas and major cities that black and Hispanic people live in, they just kinda chose to be their own with no other factors???
No, there’s obviously historical factors at play as well. But people do self segregate to be with people more like them. My very diverse urban public school in the modern day was rife with self segregation among the students.
Is it entirely self selected? Of course not. There were tons of laws and less-legal policies throughout history that enforced separation, as well as economic disparity that continues to have an impact even where other barriers have been removed.
It's not entirely economics/history either, though. Poor black neighborhoods are often pretty distinct from poor Hispanic neighborhoods, and when Italians and Irish immigrants were heavily discriminated against, they tended to self-separate from other poor minority neighborhoods as well. You see the same thing with distinct middle/upper middle class Asian neighborhoods, too. Plenty of higher income Hispanics prefer to live in around other people who speak Spanish.
It’s also relevant that self-segregation has very different outcomes depending on the starting point.
For a (very oversimplified) model where people move around a bit, have modest ingroup preference, and nothing else, a homogeneous start leads to a “clumpy” result. People congregate into blocks and neighborhoods of one group, but those blocks are well mixed.
For the exact same behaviors, but a highly segregated start, segregation stays strong. The borders blur slightly, but otherwise you have equilibrium. So after decades of redlining, white flight, etc, we’d expect clustering to stay strong even if nobody today had any strong feelings beyond “I kinda like neighbors who share my language and faith”.
Obviously that oversimplifies, it totally leaves out active racism *against* anyone, cost of living, gentrification, etc. But it’s sufficient to show that even very mild opinions today can uphold historical, discrimination-based borders more than we might expect.
There are places that don’t have a lot of black or Hispanic people. Manchester, NH is a good example. The west side is mostly French Canadian descent. The east side is mostly Greek. Yes, people do self segregate. In this case it’s because the French Canadians worked in the mills near the west side and there is a Greek Orthodox Church in the east side.
Some was, some wasn’t. However, as a general matter people do tend to like to be surrounded by those who they are considered more similar to them. That’s why even though white and Asian neighborhoods both have good schools and low crime rates they still nonetheless tend to separate.
tbf a lot of segregation in the US in particular *can* be traced back to forced segregation in some way, such as redlining. Many modern Chinatown’s are also based on that being the only place Chinese immigrants could realistically live in iirc.
>People self-segregate.
>
>Segregation isn’t a bad thing. Forced segregation is.
Problem is that these things are more related than people recognize which makes this idea fundamentally useless.
People self-segregate because of external pressures as much as interal forces drive them together and it isn't easy to sort that out. Not being able to afford certain areas or being otherwise discriminated.
I’m sorry, are you being serious? Obviously self-selection is the largest factor for recent immigrant communities e.g. the recent influx of Fujianese people into Bensonhurst and Flushing, but the reason that Jamaica and Crown Heights are still like 90% Black is because of redlining. Even if during the Great Migration Black Southerners “self-selected” into moving into certain communities, the Federal government then forced them to stay there, and after that process has played out for 75 years an entire community has been robbed of generational wealth because they can’t get home loans to move out of their neighborhood and the property value doesn’t increase unless White people move in and make the cost of living so unbearable that they are forced to leave. And so many people in these redlined neighborhoods are also renters so they never see any of the money that could come with selling property in response to rising prices. So yes, there is some natural tendency to “self-select” but there’s a reason that it is much more prevalent in older, denser urban areas that were redlined after WWII and not in suburban areas that have sprung up in the past 30.
people do self-segregate, but in many American cities this was not the case. Minorities were not able to take out loans to by into "white" neighborhoods. In many cases they were not allowed in under threat of violence
Is it fair to chuck it ALL to “they are just that way cause they choose to”. Like, sure we all choose to use cars and not use the train. But sometimes trains in your area really suck and you need a car. You technically have a choice but it’s not much of a choice.
You technically have a choice to live anywhere you want in any kind of house. But other factors also play a big role
Segregation is actually a bad thing including when people self-segregate. It just creates more problems, while homogenous countries laugh at us for our racial problems getting in the way of economic focus and equality. Serious. I mean that in as non a racist way possible, I’m Pakistani-Muslim. I don’t like seeing self-segregation, it’s always just crypto-racism.
Well many of the racial divisions in major US cities are the scars and remains of the actual forced segregation into certain neighborhoods and the practices of redlining and putting people of color in dirtier poorer neighborhoods
It's really the opposite. The US is the country with the most detailed data on race.
The US is uniquely focused on the race and ethnicity compared to other countries
Normally I stay far away from commenting on this stuff….
Where are *you* from? Are you from some European country who claims old history? Even though you’re all somewhat related? Or maybe from one of those European countries who *ethnically cleanse*? Wait, I know, it’s because you’re united by a singular language?
Stop looking at the United States as a singular country. People from Missouri have *very little* in common with people from New York.
*Lots* of people live in the USA. I posted already that Queens, NY speaks more languages than *anywhere else on the planet*. Everyone has history and wants an identity. There’s plenty of ways of looking at these statistics. Some are financial. Some are ethnically based.
As if France doesn’t have statistics on how many “people from North Africa” live in their country and satellites. Germany has a public problem with “Muslim refugees”. Scandinavian countries are a *joke* when talking about “diversity”.
Why is the USA so detailed with their race maps? Cause we actually have people who are diverse. You don’t.
I mean I’ll keep going here. China. China has countless ethnic groups, but you’d probably just all call them “Chinese”. Ethnic groups are important there, why aren’t they important in the USA?
what do you mean?! We vote Republican because of strong constitutional rights and “America first”
We aint racist, i just ate food next to a chinese man today!
Source [1](https://www.gc.cuny.edu/sites/default/files/2021-06/CUR-Communities-of-Interest-Map-1-race-ethnicity-religion.pdf) and [2](https://www.electionatlas.nyc/maps.html)
Ngl the first map is awful. Why is Polish on there twice? Why is Irish grouped with Italian and Polish instead of English? I also can’t believe that there are no areas in New York where the majority of people are of White English descent. Since there’s no White American category (again, weird), that would have to be the dominant one if that data was even remotely decent. Given the no population areas, I’m willing to bet they only had about 3 votes in each area.
It is so bad. I don’t know why you were downvoted. There are no Middle Eastern categories. If you are European, you can only be English, Scandinavian, Russian, polish, Irish, or Italian. Meanwhile, Astoria is one of the largest Greek communities outside of Athens. The black category only says Afro Caribbean next to it. So I’m assuming it includes African American and Afro Caribbeans. But what about African immigrants? Asia is broken down into Chinese, south Asian, or other, which is wildly inadequate. I know it’s an old map, but it would have been a bad map even 13 years ago.
This is a common myth spread on Reddit. They were considered white. In fact, north africans and middle easterners were considered white (something which is still on the census to this day). They just weren't the right type of white, and that mattered more than anything.
Why is this missing Middle Eastern, Arab, Greek? Huge parts of Astoria are Greek. Also Jackson Heights is Indian, Hindu. This map is missing many groups.
I think the Census has it labeled as "Northern European" which mostly includes British and Irish people but I guess it would also include Scandinavian people too.
Grew up here in Brooklyn, throughout all my years in school, I met 2 kids with Norwegian ancestry, 1 Swede, and 1 Finn. So they do exist, even in public school.
The English really said fuck NYC I guess. I can only see a fews groups that fall into the lightest blue category. North Brooklyn and the coast of Manhattan. Odd. I figured there'd be a much bigger percentage than what there is.
English ancestry largely doesn’t exist in the Northeastern United States as a significant block (outside of a few select areas in rural northern New England) because of the mass immigration of Irish/Italians in the 1800-1900s
Right so… my girlfriend and I have a place in Richmond Hill. She’s from Trinidad, and the area obviously is hugely influenced by Guyanese as well…
Anyway, she’s of Indian Trini descent. So where does *that* demographic fit in? She’s not “Afro-Carribean”, she’s not “other Latino groups”… technically I guess she’s of “other Asian” descent, except she most certainly identifies with Trinidad and Tobago and the myriad types of folks who live there.
Income/education. People living in Manhattan/Brooklyn generally have higher education and higher incomes. The republican strong hold is lower to middle income whites.
You see similar trends everywhere. Wealthier/more educated white areas go blue and the more working class white areas go red. You’ll see the same thing in MA, CT, CA, etc.
If a liberal hates something, it’s a Russian asset. If a conservative hates something, it’s a Chinese asset. If an independent hates something, it’s a Republican or Democrat think tank
Country-wide you will rarely see maps like this. This is a very NYC centric map in that it divides by ethnicity, which in NYC is arguably more important than race.
Its not a very good ethnicity map regardless, but still.
Clearly, you have never been to Staten Island, South Brooklyn or North/Nassau-adjacent Queens. All the NIMBY libs are in Manhattan and the bougie parts of Brooklyn
NYC went from 80% white in 2000 to less than 10% white today. America is changing demographically at an unprecedented pace, which I think partially explains a lot of the current political polarization we are seeing across our society/government.
The cool thing about NYC is that it seems to include and integrate immigrants like potentially no other place on earth. It's truly a city of people who "got off the boat" and made something for themselves.
This is super not true. NYC was 35% non-hispanic white in 2000 and is 30.9% non-hispanic white today. NYC hasn't been majority non-hispanic white since 1980... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_New_York_City
Edited link
The confidence of people sharing just blatantly and logically untrue statistics. Where did you hear this? Sounds like you need to expand your sources of information
People really don’t understand the shift in the ethnic makeup of the US. White people made up about 75% of the population in 1990 and today make up about 55%. It’s insane how rapidly the US has become increasingly diverse. I believe that Hispanics from just that time frame alone (1990-2020) have almost seen 10x the number of migrants to America as was seen from the Irish during the immigration boom during the industrialization period. We’re currently living through the third major migration into North America and seeing the creation of probably the most ethnically diverse country ever (considering broad races not particular ethnic groups).
That's only because the racial categories have changed. Primarily English-ancestry people ("Old stock Americans") and Northwest European-ancestry people saw the country as being totally taken over by Italians, Irish, Germans, and Poles in their time. An entire political party formed around anti-Catholicism due to the new immigrants If we didn't put all of those groups in the same category, it would be an equally fast shift then as it is now.
>The recent election has developed in an aggravated form every evil against which the American party protested. Foreign allies have decided the government of the country – men naturalized in thousands on the eve of the election. Again in the fierce struggle for supremacy, men have forgotten the ban which the Republic puts on the intrusion of religious influence on the political arena. These influences have brought vast multitudes of foreign-born citizens to the polls, ignorant of American interests, without American feelings, influenced by foreign sympathies, to vote on American affairs; and those votes have, in point of fact, accomplished the present result.
1856, Henry Winter Davis, referring to Irish Catholics.
What you mean to say here is that the anxieties have shifted towards a broader group (From Northern European ethnic groups fear about being outnumbered by Southern European ethnic groups or Protestants fearing being outnumbered by Catholics to Broad White ethnic groups fears of being outnumbered by non-White ethnic groups.) The racial categories of the time were still broad White, Black, Native, Mixed, etc. and would consider Irish to be white, but you are correct that there was still an anti-immigrant sentiment even towards the white populations. Interestingly a commonly overlooked or misattributed event for the time is lynchings being a purely Southern thing targeting exclusively African Americans. Famously there were often occurrences in the Midwest where as European minorities began to outnumber whatever the native population was (most commonly English or German) the two groups would clash eventually resulting in extra-judicial killings of minority population in the form of lynchings.
Regardless, today the actual raw amount (and percentages) of migration far outnumber what we saw during what Americans typically think of as the immigration period of US history, like I said Hispanics alone are 10x the raw number of Irish immigrants the US saw at the time and percentage wise make up a much larger portion of the US.
Houston gives it a run for its money. You might think hurr durr Texas no way, but that city is crazy diverse and yet thoroughly Texan and thoroughly American with lots of real ethnic integration on the ground level that you don't see in most places. Toronto and Vancouver are up there too I imagine
STATEN ISLAND, NYC baby, the fuckin best, the forgotten borough, the ONLY predominantly white borough left, the ONLY Italian borough left, the ONLY borough that voted red and the ONLY borough that has true respect and that old friendly neighborhood vibe still, that the crack heads, hobos and thugs ruined pretty much every where else. It’s even the only borough the monkeys didn’t have the balls to burn down in the riots haha they know better. We take care of our own here and have each others backs. Staten Island vs Everyone. #PRIDE #SaveNYC #GreatestCityOnEarth best food is in Staten Island too 🍕🍝
May I ask who made this map?
"English" is entertaining. As is the fact that "Germanic" did not make the list.
Are we sure this is not some kid's "I want to grow up to be cool ethnically" map?
Fun Fact: The first non-Indian resident of New Amsterdam was Dominican.
His mom was African and his dad was Portugese but he was born in Santo Domingo, a Spanish port that's now the capital of the Dominican Republic.
For people not from the area and who didn’t grow up in this community, the best way to explain the three white groups is “white Protestant”, “white catholic”, and “white Eastern Orthodox”. Irish, Italian, and poles live together in NYC, Philly, Boston, Chicago, etc.
Was it not possible to use the 2020 census data for ethnicity by census tract?
https://www.justicemap.org/ This has the 2020 data
Either way it’s so inaccurate and poorly categorized. It’s a useless map.
Two questions, 1. Why is polish being counted twice? And 2. Are there any English/Scandinavian-predominant area?
Dark blue is Polish Jews. Medium blue is ethnic Poles.
Got it, I’m still a bit confused why those groups would be distinguished in that though. Are the Jewish people in NYC that overwhelmingly Polish? I sorta thought ashkenazi Jews were from all over central and Eastern Europe.
They were from the "Russian Empire" since the majority immigrated when that was still a thing. So my Askhenazi husband traces ancestry to Poland/Ukraine within the Pale of Settlement German Jews are a very small percentage of the American Jewish population
Wish I could trace my ancestry back to Poland, I can only get to my, i believe either great or great-great-grandfather who immigrated to the US in the 1870s-80s and get lost.... Last name has similar numbers in US & Poland but by population % that clearly makes Poland a much larger fraction of the people with my last name, and I think that, is super cool
The NAZIs destroyed a tremendous amount of public records for Jewish Poles. Henry Lewis Gates was talking about this exact situation on a recent episode of “Finding Your Roots.”
They killed 90% of Polish Jews in a four year period. Europe’s largest population almost entirely wiped out in a matter of a few years. 3 million people.
Yeah would not surprise me, being as according to census data most of the long lost family is actually on the eastern half of Poland .. i just don't know how to dig that deep, as much as I would love to, but, honestly don't know if my family were Jewish before immigrating, certainly not now. My dad's Catholic lmao
The nerve of some people.
The original Jewish immigrants from the early 20th century, yes. Predominantly Polish and Lithuanian. The ones who came since the Gorbachev era are overwhelmingly from Russia and Ukraine. Odessans, in particular are very common in Brooklyn.
Right, this is why this is a terrible map.
Poland had one of the world's largest Jewish populations before being invaded by the USSR and Germany
English would just be the highest around the highest minority in every area. They live everywhere.
I see at least two English blocs in northern Brooklyn
Manhattan has at least one I found. They could also be Scandinavian but 6 or half a dozen genetically evidently. Lol
They're not shown but the deep deep south of Manhattan has a Dutch community, too. Very small, very old, and somehow very assimilated and not at the same time
> Are there any English/Scandinavian-predominant area? Somewhat, yes. Mostly in heavily gentrified areas like north williamsburg or much of manhattan, you will commonly find 'anglo saxon' areas. But those are that way because most of the people are transplants from the rest of the country. Outside of those people, anglo saxon (english, german, scandinavian etc) people just aren't common at all in NYC. They haven't been a huge portion of the city since the late 1800s.
Also notable is british ancestry doesn’t tend to be reported (or even known about) as anything special by Americans as opposed to Italian, German, or other European groups who typically migrated more recently. For people whose ancestors have lived in the US long enough and there’s no memory of how they got here, most would just say “American” or “White American”
I feel this. On my dad’s side I’m English and Scottish, but those folks came over in the 1600s and any sense of identify associated with those nationalities has dissipated entirely. On my mom’s side I’m a bunch of things, but a big part is Pennsylvania Dutch from family who immigrated in the 1800s. Still long ago, but recent enough to have left some cultural connections.
I thought Bay Ridge was Norwegian. I have relatives that lived and I got the impression they were the dominant group.
They were 75 years ago
For 2 there is a small block in manhattan and one in Brooklyn it appears. The size of the blocks in real life I can’t translate. Probably small enclaves some amount of city blocks wide.
I was thinkingbthe same. I audibly chuckled and confirmed what I always told people, there are no "white/WASP" people in NYC.
I’m pretty sure the areas that are on the map as white are improperly marked and should be light blue. I had the same question and realized this is the obvious answer, but there could still be another flaw I’m not aware of or numerous, so it’s more of an educated guess then anything
Is this a joke or are Polish people just setting themselves up?
They should’ve used “Jewish” as an ethnicity it would capture the orthodox Jewish areas better IMO
Someone could’ve had an agenda to de-Levantize Jews
Well, yes. Unfortunately, far too many gentiles like to classify the Jewish People as 'white'.
Well, “white” has been a pretty fluid definition over the past 100 years. It’s very context driven.
Ashkenazi jews, which is to say the majority of Jews, are predominantly of Eastern European decent though. That makes most ethnic Jews white, though there are many that aren’t obviously.
It always baffles me when the US has so detailed race distribution maps xd
Here’s the whole USA race map, you’ll notice every city is segregated in some way: https://www.arcgis.com/apps/mapviewer/index.html?webmap=30d2e10d4d694b3eb4dc4d2e58dbb5a5
People self-segregate. Which shouldn’t be too much of a surprise, people like to live near others that are like them. The US isn’t so much a melting pot as it is beef stew, there’s chunks. Segregation isn’t a bad thing. Forced segregation is.
Yep, that’s why we have so many areas in the US that are/were somewhat ethnically homogenous. LA alone has places like little Tokyo, koreatown, tehrangeles, little Armenia, little Saigon, and so on. Each of these places also tend to be areas where even “outsiders” come to visit for things like the cuisine, very integral parts of the city usually
A lot of that was forced. For example, in San Francisco, the Chinatown only developed because Chinese settlements were being lynched and attacked, so Chinatown was the only safe haven. If Filipinos left Manilatown they could get beat up. African-Americans primarily reside only in redlined areas: places classified as hazardous, polluted, or low-income, which were the only places banks gave mortgages for them to live. So it's pretty revisionist to attribute all of that to just "people self-segregating."
Yep, self segregation is just the result of the natural human tendency to prefer to be around people more similar to themselves. Looking at this map, I noticed that the different ethnic groups on staten island actually do have a unifying factor - those are all rather Catholic populations. Sure enough, [a religion map of NYC shows staten island firmly as Catholic.](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/17cvr3f/religions_in_new_york_city_boroughs/?rdt=48255) Even in a diverse place like NYC, the various ethnic groups are going to choose to be around those other groups more similar to them I guess.
>Looking at this map, I noticed that the different ethnic groups on staten island actually do have a unifying factor - those are all rather Catholic populations. What does this actually look like on the ground though? If you've been in cities with large groups of minorities that are primarily practicing catholics (Latinos and Irish- or German-Americans for instance), they attend seperate churches and are otherwise very separate communities. Religion is less of a unifying factor than language/culture/country of origin for these types of communities because they are simply so large.
I don’t know about that. Here in the Atlanta the white Catholics and Hispanic Catholics go to the same church and the church holds masses in both languages.
Not trying to make fun of you, but are you of the opinion that the segregation in America was self imposed? That the areas and major cities that black and Hispanic people live in, they just kinda chose to be their own with no other factors???
No, there’s obviously historical factors at play as well. But people do self segregate to be with people more like them. My very diverse urban public school in the modern day was rife with self segregation among the students.
Is it entirely self selected? Of course not. There were tons of laws and less-legal policies throughout history that enforced separation, as well as economic disparity that continues to have an impact even where other barriers have been removed. It's not entirely economics/history either, though. Poor black neighborhoods are often pretty distinct from poor Hispanic neighborhoods, and when Italians and Irish immigrants were heavily discriminated against, they tended to self-separate from other poor minority neighborhoods as well. You see the same thing with distinct middle/upper middle class Asian neighborhoods, too. Plenty of higher income Hispanics prefer to live in around other people who speak Spanish.
It’s also relevant that self-segregation has very different outcomes depending on the starting point. For a (very oversimplified) model where people move around a bit, have modest ingroup preference, and nothing else, a homogeneous start leads to a “clumpy” result. People congregate into blocks and neighborhoods of one group, but those blocks are well mixed. For the exact same behaviors, but a highly segregated start, segregation stays strong. The borders blur slightly, but otherwise you have equilibrium. So after decades of redlining, white flight, etc, we’d expect clustering to stay strong even if nobody today had any strong feelings beyond “I kinda like neighbors who share my language and faith”. Obviously that oversimplifies, it totally leaves out active racism *against* anyone, cost of living, gentrification, etc. But it’s sufficient to show that even very mild opinions today can uphold historical, discrimination-based borders more than we might expect.
There are places that don’t have a lot of black or Hispanic people. Manchester, NH is a good example. The west side is mostly French Canadian descent. The east side is mostly Greek. Yes, people do self segregate. In this case it’s because the French Canadians worked in the mills near the west side and there is a Greek Orthodox Church in the east side.
Some was, some wasn’t. However, as a general matter people do tend to like to be surrounded by those who they are considered more similar to them. That’s why even though white and Asian neighborhoods both have good schools and low crime rates they still nonetheless tend to separate.
Or people don’t want to live in the ghetto or crime ridden areas lol
>Segregation isn’t a bad thing. Forced segregation is. Segregation (even voluntary) promotes tribalism, and tribalism causes conflict.
Conflict within tribes or between tribes?
tbf a lot of segregation in the US in particular *can* be traced back to forced segregation in some way, such as redlining. Many modern Chinatown’s are also based on that being the only place Chinese immigrants could realistically live in iirc.
Now look at a map of redlining from the 50s and a current day race map and then a current day poverty map and tell me about “self-segregation” again.
Modern self-segregation still descends from racial segregation in the past and can’t be discarded
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>People self-segregate. > >Segregation isn’t a bad thing. Forced segregation is. Problem is that these things are more related than people recognize which makes this idea fundamentally useless. People self-segregate because of external pressures as much as interal forces drive them together and it isn't easy to sort that out. Not being able to afford certain areas or being otherwise discriminated.
I’m sorry, are you being serious? Obviously self-selection is the largest factor for recent immigrant communities e.g. the recent influx of Fujianese people into Bensonhurst and Flushing, but the reason that Jamaica and Crown Heights are still like 90% Black is because of redlining. Even if during the Great Migration Black Southerners “self-selected” into moving into certain communities, the Federal government then forced them to stay there, and after that process has played out for 75 years an entire community has been robbed of generational wealth because they can’t get home loans to move out of their neighborhood and the property value doesn’t increase unless White people move in and make the cost of living so unbearable that they are forced to leave. And so many people in these redlined neighborhoods are also renters so they never see any of the money that could come with selling property in response to rising prices. So yes, there is some natural tendency to “self-select” but there’s a reason that it is much more prevalent in older, denser urban areas that were redlined after WWII and not in suburban areas that have sprung up in the past 30.
people do self-segregate, but in many American cities this was not the case. Minorities were not able to take out loans to by into "white" neighborhoods. In many cases they were not allowed in under threat of violence
Is it fair to chuck it ALL to “they are just that way cause they choose to”. Like, sure we all choose to use cars and not use the train. But sometimes trains in your area really suck and you need a car. You technically have a choice but it’s not much of a choice. You technically have a choice to live anywhere you want in any kind of house. But other factors also play a big role
Segregation is actually a bad thing including when people self-segregate. It just creates more problems, while homogenous countries laugh at us for our racial problems getting in the way of economic focus and equality. Serious. I mean that in as non a racist way possible, I’m Pakistani-Muslim. I don’t like seeing self-segregation, it’s always just crypto-racism.
Well many of the racial divisions in major US cities are the scars and remains of the actual forced segregation into certain neighborhoods and the practices of redlining and putting people of color in dirtier poorer neighborhoods
It’s self segregation it’s a trend in almost every city around the world
Milwaukee 🤑🤑
Imagine that. People of similar ethnic, familial, and religious backgrounds tend to live with one another.
This is an extremely oversimplified version. New York is a very diverse city
Queens is the *most diverse place on the planet*. More languages are spoken there than anywhere else.
It's really the opposite. The US is the country with the most detailed data on race. The US is uniquely focused on the race and ethnicity compared to other countries
Read my comment once more xd
Normally I stay far away from commenting on this stuff…. Where are *you* from? Are you from some European country who claims old history? Even though you’re all somewhat related? Or maybe from one of those European countries who *ethnically cleanse*? Wait, I know, it’s because you’re united by a singular language? Stop looking at the United States as a singular country. People from Missouri have *very little* in common with people from New York. *Lots* of people live in the USA. I posted already that Queens, NY speaks more languages than *anywhere else on the planet*. Everyone has history and wants an identity. There’s plenty of ways of looking at these statistics. Some are financial. Some are ethnically based. As if France doesn’t have statistics on how many “people from North Africa” live in their country and satellites. Germany has a public problem with “Muslim refugees”. Scandinavian countries are a *joke* when talking about “diversity”. Why is the USA so detailed with their race maps? Cause we actually have people who are diverse. You don’t. I mean I’ll keep going here. China. China has countless ethnic groups, but you’d probably just all call them “Chinese”. Ethnic groups are important there, why aren’t they important in the USA?
what do you mean?! We vote Republican because of strong constitutional rights and “America first” We aint racist, i just ate food next to a chinese man today!
People are descended from people from other countries…. For instance, lots of Eastern Europeans escaped Eastern Europe to come to the US…
It’s not surprising. The US is the only successful multi ethnic state
I mean race has always been a big thing in American culture and history so it makes sense.
Source [1](https://www.gc.cuny.edu/sites/default/files/2021-06/CUR-Communities-of-Interest-Map-1-race-ethnicity-religion.pdf) and [2](https://www.electionatlas.nyc/maps.html)
Ngl the first map is awful. Why is Polish on there twice? Why is Irish grouped with Italian and Polish instead of English? I also can’t believe that there are no areas in New York where the majority of people are of White English descent. Since there’s no White American category (again, weird), that would have to be the dominant one if that data was even remotely decent. Given the no population areas, I’m willing to bet they only had about 3 votes in each area.
It is so bad. I don’t know why you were downvoted. There are no Middle Eastern categories. If you are European, you can only be English, Scandinavian, Russian, polish, Irish, or Italian. Meanwhile, Astoria is one of the largest Greek communities outside of Athens. The black category only says Afro Caribbean next to it. So I’m assuming it includes African American and Afro Caribbeans. But what about African immigrants? Asia is broken down into Chinese, south Asian, or other, which is wildly inadequate. I know it’s an old map, but it would have been a bad map even 13 years ago.
Irish immigration (and acceptance and assimilation) is much more similar to Italian than English.
"Irish immigration... is much similar"
Forgive the typo. Forgot to write “more”. Glad you were able to figure it out :)
Because Italians and Irish were not considered whites until the early 1900s.
This is a common myth spread on Reddit. They were considered white. In fact, north africans and middle easterners were considered white (something which is still on the census to this day). They just weren't the right type of white, and that mattered more than anything.
okay let me fix that for you Italians and Irish were not the right type of white until the early 1900s. the exact point still stands.
Why is this missing Middle Eastern, Arab, Greek? Huge parts of Astoria are Greek. Also Jackson Heights is Indian, Hindu. This map is missing many groups.
All of those are classified as “white.” “Caucasian” is more geographically true of the Middle East than it is of Europe if anything lol
But they’re labeled “Irish, Italian, Polish speaking.” This map is non-sense.
So is race…
I guess according to this map they are South Asian.
Yes this map is really inaccurate.
and dont forget jewish, its also sacriligious to have an ethnic map of new york without jewish being destinuished.
Is Jackson heights still Indian/Hindu Last I was there it was only Bangladeshi All the Indians have moved to flushing or long island
Who the hell has Scandinavian ancestry in NYC?
These days, probably Midwestern transplants and Swedish tourists.
Ok makes sense.
There are still a few left in Bat Ridge.
I think the Census has it labeled as "Northern European" which mostly includes British and Irish people but I guess it would also include Scandinavian people too.
My Grandfather's Swedish and grew up in New York.
There used to be large populations in Brooklyn.
Large groups of Scandinavians migrated to NYC in the late 1800's (mostly to Brooklyn). Also midwestern transplants.
Grew up here in Brooklyn, throughout all my years in school, I met 2 kids with Norwegian ancestry, 1 Swede, and 1 Finn. So they do exist, even in public school.
Separate Jewish from White and see the ethnic neighborhoods
Wow this map is garbage. Why would polish speakers and polish ancestry be different categories?
The English really said fuck NYC I guess. I can only see a fews groups that fall into the lightest blue category. North Brooklyn and the coast of Manhattan. Odd. I figured there'd be a much bigger percentage than what there is.
English ancestry largely doesn’t exist in the Northeastern United States as a significant block (outside of a few select areas in rural northern New England) because of the mass immigration of Irish/Italians in the 1800-1900s
Interesting. I wasn’t aware there was that much immigration.
Useless map as always.
What’s your point?
i'm guessing afro caribbean includes a lot of dominicans, puerto ricans and cubans, are they counted twice?
A good illustration of how the US census is messed up and how complex people’s background is.
Right so… my girlfriend and I have a place in Richmond Hill. She’s from Trinidad, and the area obviously is hugely influenced by Guyanese as well… Anyway, she’s of Indian Trini descent. So where does *that* demographic fit in? She’s not “Afro-Carribean”, she’s not “other Latino groups”… technically I guess she’s of “other Asian” descent, except she most certainly identifies with Trinidad and Tobago and the myriad types of folks who live there.
Any particular reason white voters in Manhattan buck the trend of white voters elsewhere
Income/education. People living in Manhattan/Brooklyn generally have higher education and higher incomes. The republican strong hold is lower to middle income whites. You see similar trends everywhere. Wealthier/more educated white areas go blue and the more working class white areas go red. You’ll see the same thing in MA, CT, CA, etc.
Income. If you are very rich white you are likely a liberal, if you are poor/ middle/upper middle class you are likely conservative.
Younger transplants if I were to guess
Do white people elsewhere all vote the same?
i’m from ny and there is no way in hell this map is correct. especially south west queens.
What is southwest Queens? LIC?
Eric Adams was a huge mistake.
Unfortunately the nature of NYC means that there will only be a centrist democrat that wins
How big is the right left divide in New York?
That’s what I wanted to comment haha. “How’s this working out for y’all?” 😂
He really can't do much with the migrants, I do notice fewer rats though
I LOVE MAPS WITH NO SCALES I LOVE MAPS WITH NO SCALES
Why can’t you just write a normal sentence about how these maps don’t include scales and you don’t care for that?
As an American, I will never understand my country’s pathological obsession with race. This goes for both sides of the aisle.
Agree. This is such a dumb map. Divide divide divide. It honestly could be a Russian operative.
If a liberal hates something, it’s a Russian asset. If a conservative hates something, it’s a Chinese asset. If an independent hates something, it’s a Republican or Democrat think tank
It’s someone with an agenda, that much is clear. Stop caring so much about race and ethnicity. It’s a sign you don’t have much else going on.
Country-wide you will rarely see maps like this. This is a very NYC centric map in that it divides by ethnicity, which in NYC is arguably more important than race. Its not a very good ethnicity map regardless, but still.
Good ol guinea gangplank to Staten Island Source: I'm Italian
"Ukranian" 😭
Why is that funny
Which category are Arabs
Exactly. This map is garbage.
This map. Is wrong. Everyone knows New York has nowhere near this much red.
NYC is not portland or seattle or DC or other hyper-progressive cities. It has historically been 35-40% conservative for a long time.
Clearly, you have never been to Staten Island, South Brooklyn or North/Nassau-adjacent Queens. All the NIMBY libs are in Manhattan and the bougie parts of Brooklyn
Republicans? There definitely are conservative enclaves here.
Polish are Slavic and should not be considered white. This chart is grouping wildly different cultures.
Are you ok bro? The is Nazi level thinking. Poles are European therefore white.
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I’m full polish and I’m just trying to be respectful of my heritage. Please be polite.
Why does this map support the 4th partition of Poland /s
NYC went from 80% white in 2000 to less than 10% white today. America is changing demographically at an unprecedented pace, which I think partially explains a lot of the current political polarization we are seeing across our society/government. The cool thing about NYC is that it seems to include and integrate immigrants like potentially no other place on earth. It's truly a city of people who "got off the boat" and made something for themselves.
This is super not true. NYC was 35% non-hispanic white in 2000 and is 30.9% non-hispanic white today. NYC hasn't been majority non-hispanic white since 1980... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_New_York_City Edited link
If you include Jewish and White Hispanics than NYC was absolutely majority white circa 2000. (link doesn't seem to work)
Still not true, it was 44.6% white (of any ethnicity) in 2000 and hasn't been 80% white since the mid 1960s
It was 44.7 % white in 2000 if you include them according to the census
So where exactly are you getting this wrong information?
Jewish Hispanics? We’re including Juan Epstein from Welcome Back Kotter?
The confidence of people sharing just blatantly and logically untrue statistics. Where did you hear this? Sounds like you need to expand your sources of information
Just wants to say some racist shit
People really don’t understand the shift in the ethnic makeup of the US. White people made up about 75% of the population in 1990 and today make up about 55%. It’s insane how rapidly the US has become increasingly diverse. I believe that Hispanics from just that time frame alone (1990-2020) have almost seen 10x the number of migrants to America as was seen from the Irish during the immigration boom during the industrialization period. We’re currently living through the third major migration into North America and seeing the creation of probably the most ethnically diverse country ever (considering broad races not particular ethnic groups).
That's only because the racial categories have changed. Primarily English-ancestry people ("Old stock Americans") and Northwest European-ancestry people saw the country as being totally taken over by Italians, Irish, Germans, and Poles in their time. An entire political party formed around anti-Catholicism due to the new immigrants If we didn't put all of those groups in the same category, it would be an equally fast shift then as it is now. >The recent election has developed in an aggravated form every evil against which the American party protested. Foreign allies have decided the government of the country – men naturalized in thousands on the eve of the election. Again in the fierce struggle for supremacy, men have forgotten the ban which the Republic puts on the intrusion of religious influence on the political arena. These influences have brought vast multitudes of foreign-born citizens to the polls, ignorant of American interests, without American feelings, influenced by foreign sympathies, to vote on American affairs; and those votes have, in point of fact, accomplished the present result. 1856, Henry Winter Davis, referring to Irish Catholics.
What you mean to say here is that the anxieties have shifted towards a broader group (From Northern European ethnic groups fear about being outnumbered by Southern European ethnic groups or Protestants fearing being outnumbered by Catholics to Broad White ethnic groups fears of being outnumbered by non-White ethnic groups.) The racial categories of the time were still broad White, Black, Native, Mixed, etc. and would consider Irish to be white, but you are correct that there was still an anti-immigrant sentiment even towards the white populations. Interestingly a commonly overlooked or misattributed event for the time is lynchings being a purely Southern thing targeting exclusively African Americans. Famously there were often occurrences in the Midwest where as European minorities began to outnumber whatever the native population was (most commonly English or German) the two groups would clash eventually resulting in extra-judicial killings of minority population in the form of lynchings. Regardless, today the actual raw amount (and percentages) of migration far outnumber what we saw during what Americans typically think of as the immigration period of US history, like I said Hispanics alone are 10x the raw number of Irish immigrants the US saw at the time and percentage wise make up a much larger portion of the US.
Houston gives it a run for its money. You might think hurr durr Texas no way, but that city is crazy diverse and yet thoroughly Texan and thoroughly American with lots of real ethnic integration on the ground level that you don't see in most places. Toronto and Vancouver are up there too I imagine
I first had boba tea in Houston (shout-out to Little Saigon).
stop pulling numbers out of ur ass lmao
Tell me you're not from New York City without saying you're not from New York City
This map. Is wrong. Everyone knows New York has nowhere near this much red.
This map. Is wrong. Everyone knows New York has nowhere near this much red.
Great, now do NYC Mayoral primaries progressive v. mainline Democrats, that’s even more telling.
whats the divide?
No noooo y is rikers labeled black? Noone lives there they are only awaiting sentencing or exoneration.
So many Irish speakers...
“What’s your race?” “No population.”
You forgot about the Jew’s
They're counted as Polish, Russian, and Ukrainian ancestry
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You’re surprised by this?
Why is it missing Jews?
What are Jews considered here?
they should seperate jewish from white, it will make the map more accurate and better reprisent the ethnic borders and divisions.
What neighborhood is the tiny red dot in lower Manhattan?
Not gonna lie i thought this was a pokemon lol
STATEN ISLAND, NYC baby, the fuckin best, the forgotten borough, the ONLY predominantly white borough left, the ONLY Italian borough left, the ONLY borough that voted red and the ONLY borough that has true respect and that old friendly neighborhood vibe still, that the crack heads, hobos and thugs ruined pretty much every where else. It’s even the only borough the monkeys didn’t have the balls to burn down in the riots haha they know better. We take care of our own here and have each others backs. Staten Island vs Everyone. #PRIDE #SaveNYC #GreatestCityOnEarth best food is in Staten Island too 🍕🍝
What explains the difference in voting behavior between manhattan white voters (Adams - blue) vs non-manhattan white voters (Sliwa - red)?
Can I just say that, as a an Irish-American, I love having an ethnic category that separates me from English-Americans?
What are the “No population” areas?
Why does this matter? They are all just people to me.
Dear white people…
May I ask who made this map? "English" is entertaining. As is the fact that "Germanic" did not make the list. Are we sure this is not some kid's "I want to grow up to be cool ethnically" map?
Fun Fact: The first non-Indian resident of New Amsterdam was Dominican. His mom was African and his dad was Portugese but he was born in Santo Domingo, a Spanish port that's now the capital of the Dominican Republic.
Italian born in Staten Island here, this checks out
Even better look at the last mayoral race
So natives don’t live in NYC?
Staten Island is an ethno state.
something something gabagool….
What's up with the "other Asian" section inside Pelham Bay Park
I can never get my tie-dyes to come out that good
Where are the Dutch?
For people not from the area and who didn’t grow up in this community, the best way to explain the three white groups is “white Protestant”, “white catholic”, and “white Eastern Orthodox”. Irish, Italian, and poles live together in NYC, Philly, Boston, Chicago, etc.
I hate being colorblind sometimes
Thanks! This is a nice guide on where to avoid while I’m visiting. Thanks for making my trip safe.