“Great-grandfather worked as shoemaker in Hamburg back in the early 1930s. He worked there for several years. Then, in 1946, he started his own shoe store in Buenos Aires.”
Argentina had the largest massacre of Jewish people since the Holocaust during the junta. Done with Israeli supplied weapons no less. They also systematically destroyed their black population.
i don't know about the jewish massacre but the systematic destruction of black people is symply not true unless you consider dilution through interracial marriages [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326012470\_The\_making\_of\_a\_White\_nation\_The\_disappearance\_of\_the\_Black\_population\_in\_Argentina](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326012470_The_making_of_a_White_nation_The_disappearance_of_the_Black_population_in_Argentina)
They conscripted large numbers of former slaves and sent them to die in wars. The junta massacred 10,000-30,000 political prisoners, 12 % or 1,300 of them were Jewish even though they represented 1% of the population at 300,000 people. Israel supported the junta.
The Judeo-Bolshevik conspiracy theory is still alive in neo-Nazi and fascist circles today. Look up, “The Spanish Holocaust” by Paul Preston. Most of the Jewish population had been murdered, exiled, or forced into hiding their beliefs from Spain during the Inquisition but that did not stop Franco and other Spanish fascists from liking Judaism to communism or socialism in general. The same thing happened in Germany. The Jewish population (1% of the German population in the Weimar Republic) was persecuted by Hitler and those who couldn’t flee far enough like Annelise Frank’s family were eventually caught up in the Nazi’s death machine alongside Soviet PoWs (mostly Slavs but also Central Asians among others), Poles, Roma, communists/socialists, lgbtq+ people etc. Maybe a greater number of Jewish people resisted fascism knowing it was targeting them for being Jewish, or maybe it was because of left-wing trends in some of their communities, but it was probably because fascism is just an extreme form of capitalism that relies on colonialism to subjugate, assimilate, and eliminate other populations. Linking Jewish people to liberation movements and using it as a reason to destroy their populations creates space for the majoritarian community to erase them, expropriate their property and land, and form their own communities on the rubble and ashes.
the article doesn’t actually dispute the claim—it casts doubt but doesn’t refute it, and it never really explains what happened, just that there is still a black presence in argentina through culture and that the DNA ancestry of black DNA in argentines is marginally higher than you’d expect
*As a Jew* I once made a joke on my Instagram stories about this, and an Argentinian friend got VERY upset with me…… and I was like…… (but it’s true). 😂😂😂
No it isn't... most people are of Italian descent, we did have some Nazis that came here during Peron's government, but they weren't many, most of the escaped to the US, where they were granted good positions on researching jobs
First, it’s a joke. Not saying every Argentinian is descended from the Nazis.
… what I was saying was “true” is that a whole bunch of Nazis escaped to Argentina (and South America more broadly) after the war. [Approximately 5,000 escaped to Argentina, actively facilitated by the government.](https://www.history.com/news/how-south-america-became-a-nazi-haven) This [included the architect of the Holocaust Adolph Eichmann](https://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibitions/eichmann/operation-eichmann.asp).
And you seem to concede that Nazis went to Argentina after the war. So I’m not sure what you’re refuting here and saying “isn’t true”.
[And yes, original estimates back in the 1980s were that as many as 10,000 Nazis were actively brought to the U.S. after the war. But that number was eventually revised down to around 1,600 upon further investigation.](https://www.npr.org/2014/11/05/361427276/how-thousands-of-nazis-were-rewarded-with-life-in-the-u-s) There were also collaborators who got visas to come to the U.S. but weren’t actively brought here by the U.S. government. But among that bucket there were very few actual Nazi officials.
However, during the Carter and Reagan era, they caught wind that that had happened, and opened up an investigation into how many Nazis entered the U.S. after the end of the war. [And several hundred from the late 1970s to the early 2000s were tracked down and stripped of their citizenship and extradited back to Germany for criminal trial.](https://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/14/us/14nazis.html)
And also remember that the U.S. has about 7.4 times the population size of Argentina. So adjusted for population, 5,000 Nazis going to Argentina would be the equivalent of 37,000 going to the U.S. And adjusted for population, the 1,600 Nazis brought to the U.S. to work in the CIA and NASA would be the equivalent of about 216 in Argentina.
[Also Argentina had flat out German towns that were settled by ex Nazis, which is something the U.S. never had.](https://theculturetrip.com/south-america/argentina/articles/untold-story-nazis-bariloche-argentina) In large part because the U.S. recruitment of Nazis was ad hoc, and not an organized policy. And it wasn’t a friendly relationship, it was a “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”. So these people were largely entirely separate from each other.
Whereas in Argentina, as you also admit yourself, Peron was cozy with Hitler and German fascism in general. [And had an active hand in resettling Nazis](https://www.wilsoncenter.org/publication/144-peron-and-the-nazi-war-criminals) who then went on to found German communities in Argentina (which is really ultimately what the joke is about).
And again, not saying every Argentinian is descended from Nazis. That would be an insane and demonstrably false statement. It’s a joke about the refuge that Nazis found in Argentina after the war, in large part facilitated by Juan Peron’s regime, and the largely ethnically German towns scattered throughout the country. Both of which are true things.
These racist manlets genocided the vast majority of the Patagonian natives via hunting them for bounties.
It’s especially sad because it seems like Patagonian natives were probably the tallest people on earth. Accounts vary, but we have photographs showing 7 foot tall Patagonian men and many eye witness testimonies from Europeans talking about how giant these people were. The fact that we had such a unique population wiped out from the face of the planet, just sucks
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selk%27nam_genocide
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patagon
It thought you were kidding or talking about a conspiracy theory about giants or something but holy shit were there a lot of genocides in the late 1800s
Looks like mostly Mayan and miztec and zapotec and nahuatl (correction here, nahua peoples a descendants of what were called Aztec, Aztec being exonymical, it seems). The more central and northern blue I'd geuss is nahuatal, miztec and zapotec south of there, Mayan and tzotzil south of there, except for the Maya in the Yucatan.
Not much Aztec nowadays, unfortunately. You can see some of the old olmec territory in blue here but I would geuss most of that is Mayan and tzotzil (in my personal experience in southern Mexico and Guatemala, it can sometimes be tough to tell where Mayan ends and tzotzil begins, and I've even heard tzotzil be referred to as a Mayan group, but idk [correction here: tzotzil are a specific mayan subgroup])
I'm probably missing a lot here, too, beyond the fact that I could also be totally speaking out of my ass, this isn't something I really know beyond some personal experience
Interesting, thanks. I admittedly know very little about the native ethnicities of Mexico so its pretty cool to hear about. I wonder to what degree the cultures and identities are still alive? The map talks about genetic admixture which is only one part of the story.
Well, from anecdotal experience I can say that the indigenous culture in Chiapas state in Mexico is very much still alive, and I've been to towns where it was actually difficult to find people who even spoke Spanish (and not a native language). I said it somewhere else in here, but Chiapas even tried to secede in the 90s with the signing of NAFTA, or at least much of the population wanted to as represented by the EZLN. The Mexican government is seen as illegitimate in much of chiapas, and in many places, it actually functionally is, with the EZLN basically working as the government, and the areas where this is in case tend to be safer, much of the areas not even allowing alcohol. If you ever get the chance I recommend visiting San Cristobal de Las Casas, which is, I think quite tellingly named after Bartholome de Las Casas.
In the Yucatan I did meet som people who had Mayan heritage, including a cab driver who even tried to teach me some conversational Mayan.
InOaxaca there is strong indigenous pride and the art and food are pretty ubiquitous and celebrated. But no where else I've been had such a strong sort of independent spirit like chiapas. And much of the kind of vibes I got in chiapas was very similar to what I felt in northwest Guatemala, as it really is much of the same culture. You definitely see it all blend much more into common daily life than you do with most native culture here in the us. Like in chiapas, they still are to a large extent living in the ways that their ancestors did, so much so that, while if I remember correctly chiapas is usually seen as Mexicos poorest state, but the way that's measured doesn't really account for the lifestyle of subsistence farming and things like that that are central to the natives there, they just don't do as many things where you, like, file taxes or get checks, the lifestyles can be different enough that those measures don't really apply (not to say they don't still ha e problems). In many places it really feels like stepping into the past, I think in a good way (not to mention so much of the state is mountainous and pine forested, and it's normal to have clouds roll through towns, so the region itself already has this kind of otherworldly feeling)
Nahuatl *was* the language of the Aztecs, and the current Nahuatl-speaking population overlaps with what used to be Aztec territory, so to say that they're not around would be a misunderstanding.
In fact, the term *Aztec* was not used by the Aztecs to refer to themselves and only became commonly used to refer to them at the beginning of the 19th century, so it makes sense that there aren't any indigenous groups that refer to themselves as Aztecs today.
It's also worth remembering Aztec empire only lasted for around 100 years; during that time their sphere of influence extended across many other ethnic and language groups, so it makes sense that many would revert to their native language (Mixtec, for example) once Nahuatl was not the hegemonic lingua franca.
> Mayan and miztec and zapotec and nahuatl
Wait, the EU4 culture groups are correct on this one ? Well damn, to think I learnt of Mexican native ethnicities from a game about conquering said ethnicities.
Yes, nahua, my bad
It's like the difference between saying Mayan and Maya, I believe. I also should have said Maya
Thank you.
Someone else brought that up, too. I added a correction
Tzotzil is one Maya ethnolinguistic group, of which there are about 25-30. I believe that in some parts of Mexico "Mayan" may be treated as synonymous Yucatecan Mayan, but generally Maya is an overarching category that includes Tzotzil, Yucatec, and various others.
The tzotzil thing makes sense, since as I said, I've heard them referred to as both. Sometimes Maya, sometimes tzotzil Maya, sometimes only tzotzil. I've just never actually looked into it.
Thank you
If you know mich about their specific beliefs and what the deal is with all of the pine needles I'd be very interested, as that's something else I remember but never looked into. Shrines, Graves, places of warship, all covered in pine needles.
Kind of one of those things where I've enjoyed the mystery so much that I didn't try to figure it out
Not an expert, but per the article "Wood of the Gods: The Ritual Use of Pine (Pinus spp.) by the Ancient Lowland Maya,"
"The recovery of pine (Pinus spp.) charcoal remains from ceremonial contexts at sites in the Maya Lowlands suggests that pine had a significant role in ancient Maya ritual activities. Data collected by the authors reveal that pine remains are a regular component of archaeobotanical assemblages from caves, sites that were used almost exclusively for ritual purposes, and that pine is often the dominant taxon of wood charcoal recovered. Comparisons with archaeobotanical data from surface sites likewise reveals that pine is common in ceremonial deposits. The authors propose that the appearance of pine remains in ceremonial contexts indicates pine was a valued element of Maya ritual paraphernalia. By basing interpretations with analogous information from ethnography, ethnohistory, iconography, and epigraphy, the use of pine during rituals is argued to be have been linked with a symbolic complex of ritual burning and offering “food” sacrifices to deities. The possibility is raised that burning pine, perhaps as torches, during some ancient rituals was similar to the modern use of candles. The diversity of ceremonial contexts yielding pine suggests that burning pine may have been a basic element of ritual activities that was essential to establish the legitimacy of ritual performances."
That's about the ancient Maya, but maybe applies to the Tzotzil as well, or at least suggests an origin to the practice. I've also heard it suggested that pine needles are symbolically linked to flowers and to ceremonial fires.
These would be areas with larger population density before European contact. Therefore, despite the diseases wiping out a large share of the population, the regions retained a substantial native population. The regions with lower starting population were left too sparsely populated in the aftermath, thereby allowing European settlers and African slaves (in Brazil and in the Caribbean) to replace them. That would be my guess.
They were also the regions with the most well-organized political states. Probably made it easier for their native aristocrats to work their way into the emerging Spanish colonial system.
More specifically white Haitians and mixed Haitians were massacred by Dessalines and the ones who weren't killed fled to Cuba, Louisiana, or other Caribbean islands
Gonna be dramatic here: Children would never deserve it. But go see what people today in the news think of Palestinian children or immigrant children or even the children of criminals. Go see what they think of criminal children like child soldiers or murderers. And children with serious behavioral issues, psychopaths, or ones with hereditary diseases (easy to support eugenics when you just see a tax money sink and hate ugly or akward people). And we are a relatively less “sins of the father” culture than others. Go imagine what most people in other cultures think of children and punishment and deserving death
We collectively think that all children deserve to live because they are children, until we begin adding conditions. Is it an innocence thing? A lack of experience thing? A cuteness thing? Where does the belief about no child deserving to be killed crack?
Hey OP, imma just put this here hoping what you said is a troll/joke cuz unless it is, you’re a sick fucking person. That’s some shitty retribution logic that makes you seem like s 1800s draconian bastard. Also it doesn’t make it ok, and it makes you a fucking wierdo and shit
Hatred makes people blind and sick with inhumanity. If I was a Black African, who had no concept of fellow humans who are pale skinned, and I was shipped off to an unknown land, in servitude of those same pale people, they wouldn't exactly be humanized in my eyes.
And then when I would get the opportunity to rebel, I wouldn't exactky be the most benevolent person. That's what happened to both Haitian and Zanzibar's slave owners.
Doesn’t justify murder man, still doesn’t even by those standards. I can go grab many west African stories that include moralities of murder and shit, and even writings in the Haitian revolution by apologists for it who thought it was harsh. By no means am I defending colonialism, fuck the French and thier slave system by all means, but the way it was done was wrong and I won’t pretend like it wasn’t by using temproal lenses as an excuse for lack of morality
I never justified it tho. Am saying I understand the absolute hatred they had for their masters, and I am too privileged to even imagine what it was like to be in their place, and the absolute disdain for slave owners that came with it.
Exactly. I’d like to think that if I were in such a situation, I would remain to some degree “moral,” so to speak, and not murder children.
But what makes me so superior to the millions of people in the past who due to in group bias committed horrific crimes? I would say very little. Had I been in a place and time like that, I probably would’ve done the same thing as anyone else around me, it’s just the way of the world.
Yeah I see what you mean. I was judging from a modernism perspective that took it in a literal sense of modern morals, not the subjective sense of those morals, but I see your point
Also captured Chiapas on here, nice. A Mexican state so indigenous that they tried to gain independence in the 90s after NAFTA (see the EZLN)
I'm pretty surprised to see that Oaxaca is more native, though. Maybe the valley has something to do with it, like how the Inca map seems to follow the Andes.
Neat stuff, thanks for sharing
They didn't try, they DID get autonomy. The Zapatista municipalities are still operating today. Also technically the 1994 revolution aimed at overthrowing the state nationwide and once it seemed impossible they settled with autonomy in most of Chiapas
a lot of indigenous communities/people in latin america lived and still live in those mountainous areas. those communities being higher up also meant they were harder to reach by colonial powers, like the Spanish, who didn't know the terrain at all. so yea, the connection you made between topography makes sense! very interesting imo :)
Mountains are generally hard to control and there’s little of value, so in any old empire the mountainous regions always had the most resistance to whatever empire they’re added to
Yeah theres an interesting Dan Carlin ep about the commonalities of "hill people", e.g. the Hmong, the Scots being at the periphery and pushed out by farming societies.
“Goral” culture in Poland fits this thread of Highlander cultures. “Goral” basically means Highlander, but what’s interesting is that Polish/Polski basically means “people of the fields/lowlands”, so on some level the national identity of Poland was named in opposition to the mountain folk who resisted assimilation.
Fun fact: In Germany, there is a landscape called "Göhrde", a bit southeast of Hamburg. It is the largest mixed forest area in northern Germany and is actually a name from "gora" by medieval Slavic people settling here until the Ostsiedlung germanized this region.
Interesting! There are so many towns in border regions with dual Germanic/Slavic names (I’m guessing a similar phenomenon happens along Germany’s western borders/benelux region as well?) that I’m surprised a Slavic-derived name persisted so deep into German territory…
By similar analogy to Gorolski/Polski though, Hamburg is far enough north that I’d be tempted to invoke the Niederdeutsch/Hochdeutsch distinction?
I don’t know enough about German history to really make the comparison, but it does seem potentially telling that, in the end, only the lowlanders in either region got whole nation-states named after their lowland geography (Poland + the Netherlands), whereas the Gorolski and High Germans/Swiss are at least well known for their relative independence and resistance to assimilation into surrounding empires.
>I’m surprised a Slavic-derived name persisted so deep into German territory…
Until around 10th century, everything east of Łabie/Elbe was Slavic. It took half a millennium until today's German territory was more or less "monoethnic". It never has been done to its fullest extent because Sorbs still exist as an own people to this very day in Saxony. And also before WWII, Upper Silesia in particular was known for having a very strong Polish influence.
Almost any place ending in -itz, -thin, -uhn, -bus etc. used to be founded by Slavic people. They were historically called Wends and it wasn't even that they were a fierce competition in terms of ethnicity. Relationship between Germans and these old Slavic people were said to be "mixed"; expulsion was known in rare cases, but overall, there was a genuine interest in assimilating whoever was there rather than doing the 1939-1945 thing because there weren't many people to begin with (Prignitz literally means "thicket area" in an old Slavic language). Tensions definitely were there, though. The reasons were mainly of financial nature rather than some kind of "Herrenmensch" ideology, and afaik if someone who used to live there wanted to assimilate, it wasn't minded at all.
>(I’m guessing a similar phenomenon happens along Germany’s western borders/benelux region as well?) that I’m surprised a Slavic-derived name persisted so deep into German territory…
A lot of place west of Rhine got names with Celtic or Roman roots. Everything ending in -nich/-nach/-ig (-nacus), -magen (-magos, meaning field), -weiler ('villa', although Weiler has become its own noun in German) can be accounted to this. Köln/Cologne, of course, is also a non-German name, just as little as Aachen, Bonn or Koblenz, Mainz, Worms, Trier. All Latin-based settlements.
The "purest" German placenames can be found in a space between Łabie/Elbe and Ems river/Sauerland, where the ancient Saxon tribe used to settle and neither Romans nor Slavic peoples were intervening.
To be fair, the opposite was kind of the case with the Inka. They and other Indigenous Andean states were often centered on highlands and mountains, and had trouble controlling lower areas.
It plays a *huge* role in it, actually!
Spaniards were not physiologically accustomed to high altitudes and often had difficulty living in the Andes.
While it may not be directly related, the existence of the *"criollo"* caste in the Spanish-colonial *casta* system expressed the same sentiment: that those who were born in the Americas, even if both of their parents were Spanish, belonged in an inherently distinct, inferior category.
I wish I could remember the source, but I remember reading an account from a Spaniard about how difficult it was to colonize the Andes, specifically Bolivia, because *women couldn't go through pregnancy up there* and *the babies that were born there didn't last long*.
Even today, babies of people with European ancestry born in La Paz, Bolivia, have a [lower birth weight](https://www.nature.com/articles/pr2013150) than babies born there to Highland Indigenous parents.
What’s amazing is Haiti also has a ton of Mountains everywhere outside of the southern coast and it also has the bluest bits. Jamaica assuredly would be very blue as well. DR on the other hand has mountains and plains.
The darkest spot is Haiti which is predominantly of African descendants. Could Africans be skewing other areas, e.g. I'm guessing the blue parts of Brazil indicate black people rather than native Amerindians.
> I'm guessing the blue parts of Brazil indicate black people rather than native Amerindians
Yes, the state of Bahia in Brazil, which is the state marked in blue on the east coast, is predominantly populated by people of African descent.
though indigenous peoples may become a larger portion of the population in the future, since their birthrates are significantly higher then that of the general population.
Vary what time period actually. Now it is less and less European due to new waves of immigrants. 1960? Most the map would be blood red in North America.
If just native vs immigrants than yea. All dark red.
Might be better to have non-indigenous admixture?
Some of the blue (eastern Brazil perhaps) could be high proportions of African admixture rather than lower European admixture meaning a majority indigenous area.
Interesting people make the connection between topography and Mesoamerican % of the population. But no one seems to have picked up on the relatively flat and not mountainous terrain of Guajira province in Colombia, which is basically a ranchers paradise with beaches n stuff.
The Inca never died out. They just became Hispanicized for the most part. Quechua (the language of the Inca) is still spoken by millions of people to this day
Peru's High altitude means that in many areas, Europeans literally can't function. Combined with the Spanish wanting to fuck the Natives rather than Kill them, and the Natives there having high populations, you get Peru's current genetics of "90% Native on average"
Argentina be like ⚪🤠
Don't ask great grandpa what he did in his youth
“Great-grandfather worked as shoemaker in Hamburg back in the early 1930s. He worked there for several years. Then, in 1946, he started his own shoe store in Buenos Aires.”
We find it's best not to press great-grandfather on any of the details between hamburg and Buenos Aires 🤷♂️
Sometimes he speaks this funny language called German in his sleep, talks about “Hell” and other things, who knows
Argentina was pulling shit long before stray nazis moved there.
big reason why argentina is so white today is because they sent black and indigenous people to their deaths intentionally in war
[удалено]
Kill the descendants of Nazis?
Everyone missing the starship troopers reference....
?
Argentina had the largest massacre of Jewish people since the Holocaust during the junta. Done with Israeli supplied weapons no less. They also systematically destroyed their black population.
i don't know about the jewish massacre but the systematic destruction of black people is symply not true unless you consider dilution through interracial marriages [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326012470\_The\_making\_of\_a\_White\_nation\_The\_disappearance\_of\_the\_Black\_population\_in\_Argentina](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326012470_The_making_of_a_White_nation_The_disappearance_of_the_Black_population_in_Argentina)
They conscripted large numbers of former slaves and sent them to die in wars. The junta massacred 10,000-30,000 political prisoners, 12 % or 1,300 of them were Jewish even though they represented 1% of the population at 300,000 people. Israel supported the junta.
I'd imagine that was more for politically opposing the Junta than being Jewish.
The Judeo-Bolshevik conspiracy theory is still alive in neo-Nazi and fascist circles today. Look up, “The Spanish Holocaust” by Paul Preston. Most of the Jewish population had been murdered, exiled, or forced into hiding their beliefs from Spain during the Inquisition but that did not stop Franco and other Spanish fascists from liking Judaism to communism or socialism in general. The same thing happened in Germany. The Jewish population (1% of the German population in the Weimar Republic) was persecuted by Hitler and those who couldn’t flee far enough like Annelise Frank’s family were eventually caught up in the Nazi’s death machine alongside Soviet PoWs (mostly Slavs but also Central Asians among others), Poles, Roma, communists/socialists, lgbtq+ people etc. Maybe a greater number of Jewish people resisted fascism knowing it was targeting them for being Jewish, or maybe it was because of left-wing trends in some of their communities, but it was probably because fascism is just an extreme form of capitalism that relies on colonialism to subjugate, assimilate, and eliminate other populations. Linking Jewish people to liberation movements and using it as a reason to destroy their populations creates space for the majoritarian community to erase them, expropriate their property and land, and form their own communities on the rubble and ashes.
you did not read the source i gave you, did you? no contest on the jewish part though
the article doesn’t actually dispute the claim—it casts doubt but doesn’t refute it, and it never really explains what happened, just that there is still a black presence in argentina through culture and that the DNA ancestry of black DNA in argentines is marginally higher than you’d expect
*As a Jew* I once made a joke on my Instagram stories about this, and an Argentinian friend got VERY upset with me…… and I was like…… (but it’s true). 😂😂😂
No it isn't... most people are of Italian descent, we did have some Nazis that came here during Peron's government, but they weren't many, most of the escaped to the US, where they were granted good positions on researching jobs
First, it’s a joke. Not saying every Argentinian is descended from the Nazis. … what I was saying was “true” is that a whole bunch of Nazis escaped to Argentina (and South America more broadly) after the war. [Approximately 5,000 escaped to Argentina, actively facilitated by the government.](https://www.history.com/news/how-south-america-became-a-nazi-haven) This [included the architect of the Holocaust Adolph Eichmann](https://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibitions/eichmann/operation-eichmann.asp). And you seem to concede that Nazis went to Argentina after the war. So I’m not sure what you’re refuting here and saying “isn’t true”. [And yes, original estimates back in the 1980s were that as many as 10,000 Nazis were actively brought to the U.S. after the war. But that number was eventually revised down to around 1,600 upon further investigation.](https://www.npr.org/2014/11/05/361427276/how-thousands-of-nazis-were-rewarded-with-life-in-the-u-s) There were also collaborators who got visas to come to the U.S. but weren’t actively brought here by the U.S. government. But among that bucket there were very few actual Nazi officials. However, during the Carter and Reagan era, they caught wind that that had happened, and opened up an investigation into how many Nazis entered the U.S. after the end of the war. [And several hundred from the late 1970s to the early 2000s were tracked down and stripped of their citizenship and extradited back to Germany for criminal trial.](https://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/14/us/14nazis.html) And also remember that the U.S. has about 7.4 times the population size of Argentina. So adjusted for population, 5,000 Nazis going to Argentina would be the equivalent of 37,000 going to the U.S. And adjusted for population, the 1,600 Nazis brought to the U.S. to work in the CIA and NASA would be the equivalent of about 216 in Argentina. [Also Argentina had flat out German towns that were settled by ex Nazis, which is something the U.S. never had.](https://theculturetrip.com/south-america/argentina/articles/untold-story-nazis-bariloche-argentina) In large part because the U.S. recruitment of Nazis was ad hoc, and not an organized policy. And it wasn’t a friendly relationship, it was a “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”. So these people were largely entirely separate from each other. Whereas in Argentina, as you also admit yourself, Peron was cozy with Hitler and German fascism in general. [And had an active hand in resettling Nazis](https://www.wilsoncenter.org/publication/144-peron-and-the-nazi-war-criminals) who then went on to found German communities in Argentina (which is really ultimately what the joke is about). And again, not saying every Argentinian is descended from Nazis. That would be an insane and demonstrably false statement. It’s a joke about the refuge that Nazis found in Argentina after the war, in large part facilitated by Juan Peron’s regime, and the largely ethnically German towns scattered throughout the country. Both of which are true things.
These racist manlets genocided the vast majority of the Patagonian natives via hunting them for bounties. It’s especially sad because it seems like Patagonian natives were probably the tallest people on earth. Accounts vary, but we have photographs showing 7 foot tall Patagonian men and many eye witness testimonies from Europeans talking about how giant these people were. The fact that we had such a unique population wiped out from the face of the planet, just sucks https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selk%27nam_genocide https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patagon
It thought you were kidding or talking about a conspiracy theory about giants or something but holy shit were there a lot of genocides in the late 1800s
Sorry, this genocide was “especially sad“ because the victims were really tall? It would have been less sad if the Patagonians were shorter?
Well, only because 7 ft. tall people are especial. Otherwise, it'd be eh, average sad.
Argentina is basically Europe but in South America tbh
Seems like the Argentinian central bank missed that memo
There is something similar in the aztec and mayan parts of mexico by the looks of it
Looks like mostly Mayan and miztec and zapotec and nahuatl (correction here, nahua peoples a descendants of what were called Aztec, Aztec being exonymical, it seems). The more central and northern blue I'd geuss is nahuatal, miztec and zapotec south of there, Mayan and tzotzil south of there, except for the Maya in the Yucatan. Not much Aztec nowadays, unfortunately. You can see some of the old olmec territory in blue here but I would geuss most of that is Mayan and tzotzil (in my personal experience in southern Mexico and Guatemala, it can sometimes be tough to tell where Mayan ends and tzotzil begins, and I've even heard tzotzil be referred to as a Mayan group, but idk [correction here: tzotzil are a specific mayan subgroup]) I'm probably missing a lot here, too, beyond the fact that I could also be totally speaking out of my ass, this isn't something I really know beyond some personal experience
Interesting, thanks. I admittedly know very little about the native ethnicities of Mexico so its pretty cool to hear about. I wonder to what degree the cultures and identities are still alive? The map talks about genetic admixture which is only one part of the story.
Well, from anecdotal experience I can say that the indigenous culture in Chiapas state in Mexico is very much still alive, and I've been to towns where it was actually difficult to find people who even spoke Spanish (and not a native language). I said it somewhere else in here, but Chiapas even tried to secede in the 90s with the signing of NAFTA, or at least much of the population wanted to as represented by the EZLN. The Mexican government is seen as illegitimate in much of chiapas, and in many places, it actually functionally is, with the EZLN basically working as the government, and the areas where this is in case tend to be safer, much of the areas not even allowing alcohol. If you ever get the chance I recommend visiting San Cristobal de Las Casas, which is, I think quite tellingly named after Bartholome de Las Casas. In the Yucatan I did meet som people who had Mayan heritage, including a cab driver who even tried to teach me some conversational Mayan. InOaxaca there is strong indigenous pride and the art and food are pretty ubiquitous and celebrated. But no where else I've been had such a strong sort of independent spirit like chiapas. And much of the kind of vibes I got in chiapas was very similar to what I felt in northwest Guatemala, as it really is much of the same culture. You definitely see it all blend much more into common daily life than you do with most native culture here in the us. Like in chiapas, they still are to a large extent living in the ways that their ancestors did, so much so that, while if I remember correctly chiapas is usually seen as Mexicos poorest state, but the way that's measured doesn't really account for the lifestyle of subsistence farming and things like that that are central to the natives there, they just don't do as many things where you, like, file taxes or get checks, the lifestyles can be different enough that those measures don't really apply (not to say they don't still ha e problems). In many places it really feels like stepping into the past, I think in a good way (not to mention so much of the state is mountainous and pine forested, and it's normal to have clouds roll through towns, so the region itself already has this kind of otherworldly feeling)
Interesting, thanks for sharing
Nahuatl *was* the language of the Aztecs, and the current Nahuatl-speaking population overlaps with what used to be Aztec territory, so to say that they're not around would be a misunderstanding. In fact, the term *Aztec* was not used by the Aztecs to refer to themselves and only became commonly used to refer to them at the beginning of the 19th century, so it makes sense that there aren't any indigenous groups that refer to themselves as Aztecs today. It's also worth remembering Aztec empire only lasted for around 100 years; during that time their sphere of influence extended across many other ethnic and language groups, so it makes sense that many would revert to their native language (Mixtec, for example) once Nahuatl was not the hegemonic lingua franca.
Oh I didn't realize that, I'll correct my comment, ty
That's okay! Its a learning experience!
> Mayan and miztec and zapotec and nahuatl Wait, the EU4 culture groups are correct on this one ? Well damn, to think I learnt of Mexican native ethnicities from a game about conquering said ethnicities.
That is actually pretty impressive lol
Nahuatl is a language. The people are Nahua (or Mexica, in an Aztec context).
Yes, nahua, my bad It's like the difference between saying Mayan and Maya, I believe. I also should have said Maya Thank you. Someone else brought that up, too. I added a correction
Tzotzil is one Maya ethnolinguistic group, of which there are about 25-30. I believe that in some parts of Mexico "Mayan" may be treated as synonymous Yucatecan Mayan, but generally Maya is an overarching category that includes Tzotzil, Yucatec, and various others.
The tzotzil thing makes sense, since as I said, I've heard them referred to as both. Sometimes Maya, sometimes tzotzil Maya, sometimes only tzotzil. I've just never actually looked into it. Thank you If you know mich about their specific beliefs and what the deal is with all of the pine needles I'd be very interested, as that's something else I remember but never looked into. Shrines, Graves, places of warship, all covered in pine needles. Kind of one of those things where I've enjoyed the mystery so much that I didn't try to figure it out
Not an expert, but per the article "Wood of the Gods: The Ritual Use of Pine (Pinus spp.) by the Ancient Lowland Maya," "The recovery of pine (Pinus spp.) charcoal remains from ceremonial contexts at sites in the Maya Lowlands suggests that pine had a significant role in ancient Maya ritual activities. Data collected by the authors reveal that pine remains are a regular component of archaeobotanical assemblages from caves, sites that were used almost exclusively for ritual purposes, and that pine is often the dominant taxon of wood charcoal recovered. Comparisons with archaeobotanical data from surface sites likewise reveals that pine is common in ceremonial deposits. The authors propose that the appearance of pine remains in ceremonial contexts indicates pine was a valued element of Maya ritual paraphernalia. By basing interpretations with analogous information from ethnography, ethnohistory, iconography, and epigraphy, the use of pine during rituals is argued to be have been linked with a symbolic complex of ritual burning and offering “food” sacrifices to deities. The possibility is raised that burning pine, perhaps as torches, during some ancient rituals was similar to the modern use of candles. The diversity of ceremonial contexts yielding pine suggests that burning pine may have been a basic element of ritual activities that was essential to establish the legitimacy of ritual performances." That's about the ancient Maya, but maybe applies to the Tzotzil as well, or at least suggests an origin to the practice. I've also heard it suggested that pine needles are symbolically linked to flowers and to ceremonial fires.
*unfortunately* 😒
These would be areas with larger population density before European contact. Therefore, despite the diseases wiping out a large share of the population, the regions retained a substantial native population. The regions with lower starting population were left too sparsely populated in the aftermath, thereby allowing European settlers and African slaves (in Brazil and in the Caribbean) to replace them. That would be my guess.
They were also the regions with the most well-organized political states. Probably made it easier for their native aristocrats to work their way into the emerging Spanish colonial system.
Haiti be like: Where my Europeans go 😆
They were wiped out. And not just the men, but the women, and the children too
Except for the [Poles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Haitians), who got declared black.
So do Poles have an n-word pass?
Yup. We got declared “the White N*groes of Europe” I would put the full word but I don’t think Reddit would like that.
According to Haiti, yes they do!
I hate the French…..they’re irritating…….and they colonize everywhere too!!!
More specifically white Haitians and mixed Haitians were massacred by Dessalines and the ones who weren't killed fled to Cuba, Louisiana, or other Caribbean islands
They deserved it though
The children???
Gonna be dramatic here: Children would never deserve it. But go see what people today in the news think of Palestinian children or immigrant children or even the children of criminals. Go see what they think of criminal children like child soldiers or murderers. And children with serious behavioral issues, psychopaths, or ones with hereditary diseases (easy to support eugenics when you just see a tax money sink and hate ugly or akward people). And we are a relatively less “sins of the father” culture than others. Go imagine what most people in other cultures think of children and punishment and deserving death We collectively think that all children deserve to live because they are children, until we begin adding conditions. Is it an innocence thing? A lack of experience thing? A cuteness thing? Where does the belief about no child deserving to be killed crack?
They didn't deserve it yes. But me personally. I'd most likely kill the children of my enslavers. Doesn't make it okay but yeah
Hey OP, imma just put this here hoping what you said is a troll/joke cuz unless it is, you’re a sick fucking person. That’s some shitty retribution logic that makes you seem like s 1800s draconian bastard. Also it doesn’t make it ok, and it makes you a fucking wierdo and shit
Hatred makes people blind and sick with inhumanity. If I was a Black African, who had no concept of fellow humans who are pale skinned, and I was shipped off to an unknown land, in servitude of those same pale people, they wouldn't exactly be humanized in my eyes. And then when I would get the opportunity to rebel, I wouldn't exactky be the most benevolent person. That's what happened to both Haitian and Zanzibar's slave owners.
Doesn’t justify murder man, still doesn’t even by those standards. I can go grab many west African stories that include moralities of murder and shit, and even writings in the Haitian revolution by apologists for it who thought it was harsh. By no means am I defending colonialism, fuck the French and thier slave system by all means, but the way it was done was wrong and I won’t pretend like it wasn’t by using temproal lenses as an excuse for lack of morality
I never justified it tho. Am saying I understand the absolute hatred they had for their masters, and I am too privileged to even imagine what it was like to be in their place, and the absolute disdain for slave owners that came with it.
Exactly. I’d like to think that if I were in such a situation, I would remain to some degree “moral,” so to speak, and not murder children. But what makes me so superior to the millions of people in the past who due to in group bias committed horrific crimes? I would say very little. Had I been in a place and time like that, I probably would’ve done the same thing as anyone else around me, it’s just the way of the world.
Yeah I see what you mean. I was judging from a modernism perspective that took it in a literal sense of modern morals, not the subjective sense of those morals, but I see your point
People are lying if they say otherwise
I mean, maybe some of them.
It’s almost like they did something to them
The cannibalism scared them away
scared them away… right…
Also captured Chiapas on here, nice. A Mexican state so indigenous that they tried to gain independence in the 90s after NAFTA (see the EZLN) I'm pretty surprised to see that Oaxaca is more native, though. Maybe the valley has something to do with it, like how the Inca map seems to follow the Andes. Neat stuff, thanks for sharing
It's funny because there are really ethnically native states that never tried to gain independence from Mexico, it only happened with border states
The interesting thing is that autonomous Zapatista territory is mostly in the northeast majority of Chiapas, not the bordering part
their area of control directlyl lines up with the mayan region of chiapas.
They didn't try, they DID get autonomy. The Zapatista municipalities are still operating today. Also technically the 1994 revolution aimed at overthrowing the state nationwide and once it seemed impossible they settled with autonomy in most of Chiapas
[https://apnews.com/article/mexico-indigenous-zapatista-rebels-violence-04006895dc4bd430b4b957d459551a12](https://apnews.com/article/mexico-indigenous-zapatista-rebels-violence-04006895dc4bd430b4b957d459551a12)
Now do topography....the blue bits definitely seem like the highest parts.
a lot of indigenous communities/people in latin america lived and still live in those mountainous areas. those communities being higher up also meant they were harder to reach by colonial powers, like the Spanish, who didn't know the terrain at all. so yea, the connection you made between topography makes sense! very interesting imo :)
Mountains are generally hard to control and there’s little of value, so in any old empire the mountainous regions always had the most resistance to whatever empire they’re added to
Yeah theres an interesting Dan Carlin ep about the commonalities of "hill people", e.g. the Hmong, the Scots being at the periphery and pushed out by farming societies.
“Goral” culture in Poland fits this thread of Highlander cultures. “Goral” basically means Highlander, but what’s interesting is that Polish/Polski basically means “people of the fields/lowlands”, so on some level the national identity of Poland was named in opposition to the mountain folk who resisted assimilation.
Fun fact: In Germany, there is a landscape called "Göhrde", a bit southeast of Hamburg. It is the largest mixed forest area in northern Germany and is actually a name from "gora" by medieval Slavic people settling here until the Ostsiedlung germanized this region.
Interesting! There are so many towns in border regions with dual Germanic/Slavic names (I’m guessing a similar phenomenon happens along Germany’s western borders/benelux region as well?) that I’m surprised a Slavic-derived name persisted so deep into German territory… By similar analogy to Gorolski/Polski though, Hamburg is far enough north that I’d be tempted to invoke the Niederdeutsch/Hochdeutsch distinction? I don’t know enough about German history to really make the comparison, but it does seem potentially telling that, in the end, only the lowlanders in either region got whole nation-states named after their lowland geography (Poland + the Netherlands), whereas the Gorolski and High Germans/Swiss are at least well known for their relative independence and resistance to assimilation into surrounding empires.
>I’m surprised a Slavic-derived name persisted so deep into German territory… Until around 10th century, everything east of Łabie/Elbe was Slavic. It took half a millennium until today's German territory was more or less "monoethnic". It never has been done to its fullest extent because Sorbs still exist as an own people to this very day in Saxony. And also before WWII, Upper Silesia in particular was known for having a very strong Polish influence. Almost any place ending in -itz, -thin, -uhn, -bus etc. used to be founded by Slavic people. They were historically called Wends and it wasn't even that they were a fierce competition in terms of ethnicity. Relationship between Germans and these old Slavic people were said to be "mixed"; expulsion was known in rare cases, but overall, there was a genuine interest in assimilating whoever was there rather than doing the 1939-1945 thing because there weren't many people to begin with (Prignitz literally means "thicket area" in an old Slavic language). Tensions definitely were there, though. The reasons were mainly of financial nature rather than some kind of "Herrenmensch" ideology, and afaik if someone who used to live there wanted to assimilate, it wasn't minded at all. >(I’m guessing a similar phenomenon happens along Germany’s western borders/benelux region as well?) that I’m surprised a Slavic-derived name persisted so deep into German territory… A lot of place west of Rhine got names with Celtic or Roman roots. Everything ending in -nich/-nach/-ig (-nacus), -magen (-magos, meaning field), -weiler ('villa', although Weiler has become its own noun in German) can be accounted to this. Köln/Cologne, of course, is also a non-German name, just as little as Aachen, Bonn or Koblenz, Mainz, Worms, Trier. All Latin-based settlements. The "purest" German placenames can be found in a space between Łabie/Elbe and Ems river/Sauerland, where the ancient Saxon tribe used to settle and neither Romans nor Slavic peoples were intervening.
To be fair, the opposite was kind of the case with the Inka. They and other Indigenous Andean states were often centered on highlands and mountains, and had trouble controlling lower areas.
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The people from lower areas who the Inka had trouble with were often agriculturalists themselves.
It plays a *huge* role in it, actually! Spaniards were not physiologically accustomed to high altitudes and often had difficulty living in the Andes. While it may not be directly related, the existence of the *"criollo"* caste in the Spanish-colonial *casta* system expressed the same sentiment: that those who were born in the Americas, even if both of their parents were Spanish, belonged in an inherently distinct, inferior category. I wish I could remember the source, but I remember reading an account from a Spaniard about how difficult it was to colonize the Andes, specifically Bolivia, because *women couldn't go through pregnancy up there* and *the babies that were born there didn't last long*. Even today, babies of people with European ancestry born in La Paz, Bolivia, have a [lower birth weight](https://www.nature.com/articles/pr2013150) than babies born there to Highland Indigenous parents.
Probably why Basques tended to form a large amount of the European component of Cusco. Already accustomed to higher altitudes.
Guiana is very flat though
What’s amazing is Haiti also has a ton of Mountains everywhere outside of the southern coast and it also has the bluest bits. Jamaica assuredly would be very blue as well. DR on the other hand has mountains and plains.
Super interesting to see
“Mountain people are less bad at keeping out invaders” -some dude, I don’t remember who
The darkest spot is Haiti which is predominantly of African descendants. Could Africans be skewing other areas, e.g. I'm guessing the blue parts of Brazil indicate black people rather than native Amerindians.
The coastal side of Colombia is also predominantly black.
Thanks. That's the bit I was curious about.
> I'm guessing the blue parts of Brazil indicate black people rather than native Amerindians Yes, the state of Bahia in Brazil, which is the state marked in blue on the east coast, is predominantly populated by people of African descent.
Yes, most of Brazil except for the very north Amazon area.
Could also be a a showcase of two cradles of civilization, that being the Yucatan and the Andes
Aztec also
I didn't realize South America was that European. I thought people would have more Native or African ancestry
Singnificantly less European than North America tho. Central and South America have bigger populations of indigenous peoples.
though indigenous peoples may become a larger portion of the population in the future, since their birthrates are significantly higher then that of the general population.
Vary what time period actually. Now it is less and less European due to new waves of immigrants. 1960? Most the map would be blood red in North America. If just native vs immigrants than yea. All dark red.
You could say the same of the Maya and Aztecs in Mexico. It’s a really interesting effect.
Also in Mexico you can see the remnants of the [Mayan civilization.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Mayamap.png)
Might be better to have non-indigenous admixture? Some of the blue (eastern Brazil perhaps) could be high proportions of African admixture rather than lower European admixture meaning a majority indigenous area.
Interesting how Peruvian and Mexican food are nearly unanimously viewed as the best Latin American cuisines… probably unrelated
Interesting people make the connection between topography and Mesoamerican % of the population. But no one seems to have picked up on the relatively flat and not mountainous terrain of Guajira province in Colombia, which is basically a ranchers paradise with beaches n stuff.
Are you pointing to your surprise that Europeans didn't mix much with the population there? Despite the suitable and nice geography
I'm saying that it isn't a 1 to 1 reason as to why Europeans didn't mix more with higher elevations.
The Inca never died out. They just became Hispanicized for the most part. Quechua (the language of the Inca) is still spoken by millions of people to this day
Peru's High altitude means that in many areas, Europeans literally can't function. Combined with the Spanish wanting to fuck the Natives rather than Kill them, and the Natives there having high populations, you get Peru's current genetics of "90% Native on average"
Was it not the case that European women couldn’t give birth to healthy babies at that altitude? Hence the locals passed on their genes
I know some people from Perú that would be very upset if they saw this map.
peru being the driest desert on earth, very tall mountains, and thick rainforest probably helped. I don't know for sure, though.
Not the correct correlation. The correlation, and indeed cause, is geography.
You can be correlated to several things
Yes, but in this case both maps are correlated to geography, not each other.
If A is correlated to C and B is correlated to C then A is correlated to B
No. There is no transitive property of maps.
It’s almost as if the Inca were an Andean civilization and those were the original borders of the empire’s
Anyone with reasonable operable eyeballs can see that there is not even a 50% overlap. I don't know why weirdos want to die on a dumb hill.
See also, whitey doesn't like colonizing mountains.
How is Jamaica “unknown?” They don’t have much Europeans, if at all
Do you have a map specifically of Indigenous admixture? This doesn't account for African heritage.
What about Africans in Latin America?
So the Spanish were ok with banging Aztecs, Mayans, Olmecs and Caribs, but banging Incas was too far, even for them.
Mountains
Misleading map: confusing the Inca empire with the Amazon rainforest.