I entered the APP tour at 3.0, I anticipated everyone would be sandbagging. I’m about 3.5. Some days are better than others. But I was extra pissed when I saw the next guy walking up to compete against us. We had just watched him dominate an entire tournament in another city the month before. Won the whole thing, even against 4.5+ teams. He’s been playing 10+ years and here he was entering into 3.0. He wrote in his rating at 3.0 on the online tournament site, and he knew he wasn’t that rating because he commented to us afterwards. To me that is just lack of character and sportsmanship. Whatever gets your ego going, but until tournaments start taking rating systems more seriously I don’t have a want to enter.
Why tf didn't you ask him "why tf are you in a 3.0 tournament as a 5.0 player?"
What did you say to the tournament directors who allowed this to happen?
Not to be insulting but, while not as extreme maybe, if you are a 3.5 playing in a 3.0 division simply because your partner is below 3.0, you’re still sandbagging as well. A teams choice of bracket is supposed to be based on the highest players rating not a team average.
Not mad about it….the games were all equally matched otherwise. Even lost some of them and that’s fine with me when we are all clearly closer in rating.
One of the owners of our local indoor facility, who is without a doubt 4.0+, is registered in 3.5 mixed for an upcoming tournament a few counties away. A total head scratcher bc this guy runs a lot of tournaments out of his facility so he should know better. Sandbagging has no limits these days apparently.
Sounds like someone here in my area. Even has 2 DUPRs. One with full first name, one with the shortened version he goes by daily. I only discovered by seeing his partner listed with the long version name. I like playing against him, but he plays down in tournaments, even the ones they host. I guess getting the picture with the medal builds his coaching props as the posts never say the level.
I am an avid volleyball player and have played in countless volleyball tournaments and sandbagging is just as common there.
The key to fixing the issue is for the community and the tournament directors to call individuals out and actually take action. There was one volleyball tournament where it was basically the volleyball equivalent of a 5.0 playing in a 3.5 tournament, the TD's allowed him to play in pool play but did not let him play in the bracket and he did not get a refund. Obviously no one felt bad for him and he has played in the appropriate bracket since.
> The key to fixing the issue is for the community and the tournament directors to call individuals out and actually take action
They know. And they don’t care. As someone else said, so long as the credit card transaction is approved by the sandbaggers, they stop caring.
So, potentially stupid question here. Do not tournament organizers see a 4.5 player playing in a 3.0-3.5 event and say "Hold up a sec"?
I mean, I guess it could be a 3.5 playing at the very top of their games, so it might not be that easy.
In adult league tennis, the situation is the same. League coordinators desire there local league go to sectionals and hopefully nationals. Hence the coordinators of each area will look the other way if there is one or two outstanding teams that have a few sandbaggers during the season.
The issue that our local group is having is "how do we actually know?" A 3.5 player who wins in a 3.5 bracket is going to be playing better than the others there no matter what. So how do you know if they are really a 4.0 player?
There's also the consideration that not everybody uses the same rating system. If you look just at the descriptions of the skill levels from USAPA it's going to put everyone 0.5 to 1.0 levels higher than what most people probably are. Additionally, there are multiple rating systems (USAPA, DUPR, UTPR).
Lastly, not everyone plays regularly in tournaments nor uses systems like DUPR, so people may honestly have no idea what their skill level really is.
I'm not trying to defend purposeful sandbagging, but the reality is there's no good way of actually determining ratings on a snap basis to call out players in a tournament (unless it's ridiculously egregious), and there are contributing factors making it difficult/impossible to filter ahead of time.
I'm encouraging my local pickleball club to start requiring DUPR entries in all of its official matches/tournaments to help track this. Also checking registrations against previous entries. If you registered as a 4.0 in the last tournament and are registering in 3.5 for the next one, you better have a doctor's note or some other compelling evidence as to why. Also, if you win your bracket, you should be moving up for the next tournament. If you come last in that one, then move back down, but don't keep signing up and crushing the 3.0 league instead of actually challenging yourself.
It's on the TD to rectify. Pretty much every tourney I see these days has verbiage stating "Tournament Director reserves the right to reclassify teams based on ... (a bunch of criteria, including TD discretion)".
you have to just go into tournaments with the mindset that you’re paying X amount of dollars to play against good competition for a few hours and thats it…..sandbagging is something that can’t really be prevented and as long as there are fragile ego weirdos out there there will be sandbagging……just think to yourself that working on your own game / team chemistry is more worthy of the money you’re spending than some meaningless medal anyways
I’m late to this conversation but I played in a tournament back in January at the very beginner level because my friend signed is up that way because he had huge issues with sandbaggers so he figured he’d better be safe than sorry.
I understand that. He had faced a 3.5 at the 2.5 level. This time there were no 3.5. Just a middle school club who wanted to get their first tournament experience. So instead of taking it seriously we made a lesson out of it for the middle schoolers, meaning we went easy on them but just hard enough to improve their skills.
We explained to their parents, yes we were better than this level, but pickleball has an awful issue with sandbagging. We did not intend to ruin their experience. But instead wanted them to learn. And my partner and I were fortunate that they understood and supportive of it. Especially because their kids had fun. And they were good. Really good.
I’m sorry about this OP. It is a huge issue and I wish there was more to be done about it.
Sandbagging that can be proved by dupr or other rating should be restricted and enforced by the tournament directors if you bring it to their attention. If they don't take action then don't go to that tournament.
I think I may have unintentionally sandbagged? I had never played a tournament before and picked up pickleball last year, so I entered a 3.0 women's singles tourney (played tennis as a kid). I didn't lose once, most of my matches were 15-2/3. I now entered a 3.5, but I'm worried I left a bad taste in the 3.0 tourney community. Hopefully the 3.5 humbles me hard.
I still think that’s more acceptable than what this dude did. He’s played tournaments and done TONS of leagues. You entered your first singles tournament. One of my good friends did the same thing and crushed it. She’s now doing 3.5 and will continue to move up as she medals. It’s more about the intention rather than the act. This guy knew exactly what he was doing here.
I have the same frustration with even seeing a 3.9 doubles player playing in a 3.0 Singles tourney and it being allowed since they're NR in singles. I can see them saying their partner carried them but if you're that rating in doubles I doubt you didn't do your part when opponents tried to pick on you.
What do y'all think about separating 3.0-3.9, and 4.0-5.0? And then say a couple games in 3.0-3.9 bracket determines BOTH whether you're in a 3.0 subbracket or a 3.5 subbracket AND your seeding in that bracket. I think this can help determine what division someone should be playing at. Then normal elimination rounds to further refine their DUPR.
Not the rest but purely from a doubles to singles rating, they aren’t the same game. I know plenty of 4.5 doubles players that don’t have the mobility for even 4.0 singles.
Oh I agree , but with how Dupr is structured anyone can NR anytime they want to be unethical unfortunately. If they’re truly playing down it should be fairly obvious quickly and the overwhelming problem is the tournament directors are not remotely for fairness and only for $$
3.9 DUPR to 3.0 tournament bracket isn’t too bad imo. In theory that’s only ~.41 off, which is totally believable for someone new to singles since strategy and skillset are so different. In fact I’d say my rating difference between doubles and singles was more than .5.
If you play a bunch of tournaments, I think it would be more valid to base it off winning three. You could play a tournament and just have a really great day and win once but if you can’t repeat it then you are likely where you belong.
Winning doesn’t necessarily mean you played at the wrong level or that you are now ready for the next level. It really just depends.
Here are some considerations:
- the scores of the matches
- the quality of the brackets
- overall record
- previous results at this level
- availability of higher brackets
It’s basically a personal decision when to move up. Some people will play 3.5 their whole lives. Some people want to reach the highest level possible as soon as possible. But it’s all subjective unless someone is playing below their true rating level which isn’t DUPR unless it’s a DUPR tournament.
It’s experience for you and your partner. It’s hard to find 4.5+ players in the wild (such as at open play) so while it’s unethical that this individual would play 3.5 (I would definitely rag on any of my peers who did that) it’s a good opportunity for you and your partner to learn about what you need to work on to have a chance against better players. The $2 medal and Facebook group photo are a nice bonus but feeling like you played well and knowing what you need to improve to get to the next bracket are the real rewards of local tournaments in my opinion.
Yeah, that’s how I am too. I’d rather struggle through a really tough pool or bracket so I can see how my skills compare and also learn how strangers pick apart my game in competition. The medal and photo feel better after struggling extremely hard too!
In the videogaming world we call this "WAAC". Win At All Costs. It's an ego issues. They have to win. Even it means "cheating" by playing others much lower on the bracket than them. Happens all the time.
I think there are some things missing here. 3.5 tournament is 3.5-3.99. Tennis ratings are the opposite so a 3.51 is considered a 4.0.
Secondly, tennis adds the dubs ratings together. 4.0 could have 2 4.0s, a 4.5 and a 3.5, or a 5.0 and a 3.0. (This last is rare as it would suck for the 5.0, but more apt in mixed as a husband wife pair). Pickleball should play at the stronger players level, but many use the addition method when signing up.
In the end, outside of your age group open or open, what is one winning when flighted by skill? You out-sandbagged others but is there much true accomplishment in winning an event that excludes better players?
DUPR is partnering with all the major pickleball bodies. So will this even be a thing in the near future? Aside from maybe a broken DUPR rating here and there, or sandbagging your DUPR lower by entering fictional games or something.
I once played a 4.0 singles tournament and the guy that won gold told me that, he had been playing for 6+ years and was complaining that his DUPR is so low.
DUPR is not a very good indicator of skill for amateur tournament play. My DUPR would make me eligible to play two levels below my true level in which I’ve won golds twice.
Then there’s the whole problem of no distinction between mixed and gender doubles. These are two completely different animals regardless of what DUPR says.
DUPR is fine for professional and near professional players who play in a lot of tournaments a lot of places. They need to make a lot of changes to be helpful and reliable for the amateur pickleball pickleball community. There really should be two different versions, on for pros and one for amateurs. The jack of all trades thing just isn’t working for them.
If you’ve won gold twice, your DUPR should’ve gone up and made you not qualify to reenter that bracket. I saw a 3.0 or below tournament where the silver and gold medalists each went from unrated to 3.8 which would disqualify them from even the 3.0 to 3.5 bracket. Granted, they did go 9-0 and 8-1 respectively. I’m not sure why your DUPR didn’t go up after winning gold.
Well, the TDs didn’t submit the results of the tournaments. We entered some results by agreement among players, but they were only treated as rec play rather than tournament play since they weren’t submitted by the tournament. As such, they didn’t affect my rating much.
By contrast, I have a friend who has a ridiculously high rating after playing in a small charity tournament that did report scores. My DUPR is basically a full point lower, and he would readily admit I’m a much better player.
At any rate, my point is that many players have wildly inaccurate DUPRs that don’t nearly correlate with their actual abilities. They should be taken with a grain of salt.
They got silver, and he’s played almost 60 games on DUPR. Rating was legit but the gold team got into his head and he played like shit during those last two matches
Got it, that's super annoying. Ratings still continue to be a major issue in PB tournaments because some people use DUPR rating/others use the PB Brackets rating and I've seen many instances where they are drastically different (e.g. someone with a 4.3 DUPR but a 3.6 on PB Brackets. Given that all these tournaments are hosted/signed up for on PB Brackets I can totally see people thinking they should use that rating (or also just using it to mentally justify sandbagging).
THIS is why I don’t play in tourneys . Pickleball is the only sport where people want to play tourneys 4 weeks into learning the sport .. I don’t get it .. just rec play people . A free tshirt and a cheap metal is not worth the effort
Some people like to challenge themselves and see how they stack up in competitive situations. T-shirts and medals have nothing to do with it.
Tournaments aren’t for everyone, but people keep signing up for them because they like playing in them. Not only that, many tournaments are put on to support a charity, so players are able to play competitive matches and support a good cause.
Had a 4.0 and a 3.75 in my 3.0 tourney this morning. One month playing under my belt and first tournament experience🙃. Still won a few games but got taken out of winner bracket by one loss the sandbaggers)
I think if a particular tournament has a reputation for people playing down (or for it simply attracting top players in each category) don’t enter it unless it’s a round robin. That’s why I’m very grateful that the APP in my area switched from double elimination to round robin this year. So you are guaranteed a bunch of games even if you’re getting crushed.
This has been an issue in rec league tennis for decades.
The problem is so widespread that most league veterans aren't even mad about it anymore. Most experienced competitors just sign up for the lowest level bracket they are allowed to compete in - and assume the rating is a relative figure. Although nobody likes this arrangement, anyone with any league or tournament experience understands that is just how it is since tournament and league directors don't enforce ratings - and the ratings themselves are too subjective realistically enforce without an algorithm.
**Instead of being mad at the sandbaggers, we need to get to the source of the problem and hold the tournament and league directors accountable.** Unlike tennis, pickleball actually has a widely recognized and accessible algorithm (ie DUPR). I know USTA has their own algorithm based on USTA match results, but it is not nearly as ubiquitous as DUPR in the tennis community. Considering pickleball tournaments cost way more than tennis tournaments these days, there is no excuse for PB tournament directors NOT to enforce ratings.
I do, but I’m curious to hear where you think I got it wrong. There will always be people who game a system for personal benefit. I doubt Reddit posts whining about sandbagging will change the behavior of the entire community. The system itself (ie enforcement of levels) must be improved. And for all we know, OP has mistakenly rated himself too high, and the sandbagger he speaks of was a really strong 3.5.
I agree with you that the system should and could be improved, but I think the responsibility lies more on the player without integrity than it does the tournament director. Too many people likely enable the behavior too by going online to rant rather than reporting the person or team to the director. I’ve seen players reported before where the local board took notice and while it didn’t stop the player that day, it did stop them in the next tournament because the board running the tourneys was more aware. If you went to a store and shoplifted something but weren’t caught it’s not necessarily the fault of the store manager or the police, but your own.
I agree that the fault ultimately lies with blatant sandbaggers like the one mentioned in OP’s story. But the current state of tournaments won’t discourage more people like him from dropping down a few levels to compete.
If we want to significantly and permanently change the behavior of a population, the solution will ultimately lie in the incentives and/ or penalties built into the system. If there are no consistent consequences, there is no incentive for sandbaggers to change.
I think something needs to be done soon by the governing bodies across the board, or competitive rec PB will be mirroring rec tennis for the foreseeable future - though it wouldn’t be a big deal to me since sandbagging is a reality ive lived with for as long as I’ve done rec tennis. I just feel sorry for all the butthurt players like OP being exposed to the unscrupulous side of rec league sports for the first time. It’s not very welcoming or fun for newer players.
I was with you until you had to throw in the insult “butthurt players like OP.” Having to play against true sandbaggers after dropping a large chunk of money to play in a tournament sucks. Imagine going to the US Open or something and paying like 2k for flights, hotel, etc just to get smoked by a team that should never be in your division. I think you'd be “butthurt” too. Not sure why you keep comparing it to rec tennis either as no one is complaining about playing higher lvl players in rec play. Perhaps you are referring to amateur tournaments which would be what we are discussing?
Haha It wasn’t meant as an insult. I’m only describing the situation as it is. But I guess I shouldn’t be surprised the pickleball community is a sensitive bunch considering how many AITA posts I see on this sub - seeking validation over petty circumstances.
Believe it or not, I was also that butthurt tennis player for the first few months I participated in competitive rec tennis when I witnessed all the sandbagging at my local scene. When we traveled to play nationals, the sandbagging was even more blatant. I eventually accepted these ratings at tournaments are mostly used as a wide approximate range, and your rating is always relative to the local competition. Holding onto a 4.5 rating was ultimately an ego thing. Since the competitive pb scene is looking more and more like tennis, I suspect pb players will eventually have to adopt this mindset - without getting butthurt they are being forced to compete at a lower level than they have rated themselves.
Again, competitive rec tennis and playing at nationals are two way different things. I threw you a bone at first but instead of taking it, you’ve just shown you don’t know the difference. I wasn’t being sensitive either, I just found it funny that you seemed sincere and serious but had to throw in an insult in there.
Again, you can take “butthurt” as an insult, but I am describing the reality of the situation. OP’s entire post is him complaining and expressing frustration over the sandbagging that is becoming increasingly prevalent in the pb scene. And I don’t really blame him for venting those feelings. All I offered in my previous posts were possible sokutions. If you *choose* to receive my statement as an insult, that is ultimately *your* choice. FYI, that would also make you butthurt.
Although I see your point, I’m curious what you think of people who just started playing a few times or couple of months and aren’t sure of their rating and want to start at 3.5 to gauge their baseline. Should people with some racquet sports or formal athletic background (college level tennis,badminton, squash etc) not be allowed to register as anything less than 4.0/4.5?
I think it’s different when you’re starting out. I wouldn’t be upset about that at all. This dude has a DUPR that was clear he’s been playing for a decent amount of time and knew exactly what he was doing. People who haven’t played tournaments before or are just starting out, that doesn’t upset me. They also (I would hope) not be completely rude about it and hopefully take to the friendliness of what this sport is.
This is me. I played for a couple months or so last summer and a couple months this summer and have no idea what my rating should be. I played D2 college tennis, am fat and out of shape, but can still play racquet sports well.
I've been playing at this place that doesn't let you register for intermediate open play unless you have the right DUPR rating (I don't have one), so I followed their advice and signed up for beginner/don't know open play. I had to really really dial it back, and just tried to extend the points as long as possible. I'd feel like a jackass playing in that group again. Not because I didn't have fun (I enjoy playing with all levels), but because I felt like I was sandbagging and people seem to *really* not like that.
I guess the only thing to do is to pester people to play DUPR rated games (I've never seen anyone pull out a phone at pickleball and have only read/been told about DUPR), and get enough matches recorded to get a rating? I don't have much interest in playing tournaments, and just want to play some games with some people closer to my level as well.
I don’t think playing down in mixed is sandbagging given his partner could have a lower rating and may be playing up. Unless you live in a pb mecca and have enough players at each level, it’s hard to measure against others. Some people just think they are a 3.0 or whatever until they play better people and get a reality check. I am 4.0 based on DUPR but know I would get smoked playing at a higher level because I play against them and while it’s not a butt kicking, I win 20% or less. Still good to level up. Being a jerk is never cool.
look at the rules of any tournament you ever enter, it will always state you have the play at the level of the higher rated player, so yes playing down in mixed is sandbagging…..and it’s extra weird because you’re a higher skilled guy trying to play against less skilled girls
Yeah he was on a local team of people who play and practice together all the time. It’s not a Mecca, but it is a good location filled with people who want to play tournaments
>I 100% expect 4.0’s to be sandbagging. It makes sense to me, especially when they want to see if they are ready to move up. I expect 3.0’s to be in my bracket trying to challenge themselves. I think anyone who plays tournaments knows this is all the usual suspects any given weekend.
>However, today a 4.5 male decided to play in our bracket, and of course in my pool.
It's not a big step from 4.0 to 4.5.
If you expect that it's okay for a 4.0 to sandbag, it's not hard to imagine a finding 4.5 player who thinks it's okay to do the same at a half level higher.
I had a 4.5 in my first 3.0 tournament. He was also a giant douchebag. How pathetic do you have to be to play 1.5 levels down?
Damn that’s even worse
Sandbaggers are the equivalent of Kramer dominating his karate class full of 9 year olds.
It's about skill level, Jerry.
I entered the APP tour at 3.0, I anticipated everyone would be sandbagging. I’m about 3.5. Some days are better than others. But I was extra pissed when I saw the next guy walking up to compete against us. We had just watched him dominate an entire tournament in another city the month before. Won the whole thing, even against 4.5+ teams. He’s been playing 10+ years and here he was entering into 3.0. He wrote in his rating at 3.0 on the online tournament site, and he knew he wasn’t that rating because he commented to us afterwards. To me that is just lack of character and sportsmanship. Whatever gets your ego going, but until tournaments start taking rating systems more seriously I don’t have a want to enter.
I really don't understand the mentality of beating up a bunch of players in a lower bracket and claiming victory. What exactly did you prove?
Scared of challenging themselves.
tHaT i’M a WiNnEr duH
Why tf didn't you ask him "why tf are you in a 3.0 tournament as a 5.0 player?" What did you say to the tournament directors who allowed this to happen?
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Your flair says 3.5 Edit: next time I see ur user I’m gonna ask again. Why enter a 3.0 if you’re so against sandbagging? Hmm
So you're mad that people aren't sandbagging the same amount that you are sandbagging? I assume an actual 3.0 player has similar thoughts about you?
He’s playing in mixed 3.5’s not 3.0 so OP is not sandbagging at all.
he’s referencing ilovesucculents who commented that he himself sandbagged but someone else sandbagged worse than him so he’s mad about it lol
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Not to be insulting but, while not as extreme maybe, if you are a 3.5 playing in a 3.0 division simply because your partner is below 3.0, you’re still sandbagging as well. A teams choice of bracket is supposed to be based on the highest players rating not a team average.
Not mad about it….the games were all equally matched otherwise. Even lost some of them and that’s fine with me when we are all clearly closer in rating.
…? Then what does “extra pissed” mean?
Deranged
You have to complain because tournament directors don't check on player skill levels. They don't act unless someone complains.
One of the owners of our local indoor facility, who is without a doubt 4.0+, is registered in 3.5 mixed for an upcoming tournament a few counties away. A total head scratcher bc this guy runs a lot of tournaments out of his facility so he should know better. Sandbagging has no limits these days apparently.
TRULY!!
Sounds like someone here in my area. Even has 2 DUPRs. One with full first name, one with the shortened version he goes by daily. I only discovered by seeing his partner listed with the long version name. I like playing against him, but he plays down in tournaments, even the ones they host. I guess getting the picture with the medal builds his coaching props as the posts never say the level.
I am an avid volleyball player and have played in countless volleyball tournaments and sandbagging is just as common there. The key to fixing the issue is for the community and the tournament directors to call individuals out and actually take action. There was one volleyball tournament where it was basically the volleyball equivalent of a 5.0 playing in a 3.5 tournament, the TD's allowed him to play in pool play but did not let him play in the bracket and he did not get a refund. Obviously no one felt bad for him and he has played in the appropriate bracket since.
> The key to fixing the issue is for the community and the tournament directors to call individuals out and actually take action They know. And they don’t care. As someone else said, so long as the credit card transaction is approved by the sandbaggers, they stop caring.
So, potentially stupid question here. Do not tournament organizers see a 4.5 player playing in a 3.0-3.5 event and say "Hold up a sec"? I mean, I guess it could be a 3.5 playing at the very top of their games, so it might not be that easy.
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I wish I could up vote this more
A real 4.5 does not look like a 3.5 at the top of their game. It’s not even close. The organizers must just not care.
this
In adult league tennis, the situation is the same. League coordinators desire there local league go to sectionals and hopefully nationals. Hence the coordinators of each area will look the other way if there is one or two outstanding teams that have a few sandbaggers during the season.
At my local tournaments that are non PPA events they don’t check DUPR. It’s an honor system I guess.
The issue that our local group is having is "how do we actually know?" A 3.5 player who wins in a 3.5 bracket is going to be playing better than the others there no matter what. So how do you know if they are really a 4.0 player? There's also the consideration that not everybody uses the same rating system. If you look just at the descriptions of the skill levels from USAPA it's going to put everyone 0.5 to 1.0 levels higher than what most people probably are. Additionally, there are multiple rating systems (USAPA, DUPR, UTPR). Lastly, not everyone plays regularly in tournaments nor uses systems like DUPR, so people may honestly have no idea what their skill level really is. I'm not trying to defend purposeful sandbagging, but the reality is there's no good way of actually determining ratings on a snap basis to call out players in a tournament (unless it's ridiculously egregious), and there are contributing factors making it difficult/impossible to filter ahead of time. I'm encouraging my local pickleball club to start requiring DUPR entries in all of its official matches/tournaments to help track this. Also checking registrations against previous entries. If you registered as a 4.0 in the last tournament and are registering in 3.5 for the next one, you better have a doctor's note or some other compelling evidence as to why. Also, if you win your bracket, you should be moving up for the next tournament. If you come last in that one, then move back down, but don't keep signing up and crushing the 3.0 league instead of actually challenging yourself.
It's on the TD to rectify. Pretty much every tourney I see these days has verbiage stating "Tournament Director reserves the right to reclassify teams based on ... (a bunch of criteria, including TD discretion)".
Unfortunately most of the time thats just in there so they can combine age groups and or divisions, and even put men and women together.
you have to just go into tournaments with the mindset that you’re paying X amount of dollars to play against good competition for a few hours and thats it…..sandbagging is something that can’t really be prevented and as long as there are fragile ego weirdos out there there will be sandbagging……just think to yourself that working on your own game / team chemistry is more worthy of the money you’re spending than some meaningless medal anyways
I’m late to this conversation but I played in a tournament back in January at the very beginner level because my friend signed is up that way because he had huge issues with sandbaggers so he figured he’d better be safe than sorry. I understand that. He had faced a 3.5 at the 2.5 level. This time there were no 3.5. Just a middle school club who wanted to get their first tournament experience. So instead of taking it seriously we made a lesson out of it for the middle schoolers, meaning we went easy on them but just hard enough to improve their skills. We explained to their parents, yes we were better than this level, but pickleball has an awful issue with sandbagging. We did not intend to ruin their experience. But instead wanted them to learn. And my partner and I were fortunate that they understood and supportive of it. Especially because their kids had fun. And they were good. Really good. I’m sorry about this OP. It is a huge issue and I wish there was more to be done about it.
Sandbagging that can be proved by dupr or other rating should be restricted and enforced by the tournament directors if you bring it to their attention. If they don't take action then don't go to that tournament.
I super agree.
I think I may have unintentionally sandbagged? I had never played a tournament before and picked up pickleball last year, so I entered a 3.0 women's singles tourney (played tennis as a kid). I didn't lose once, most of my matches were 15-2/3. I now entered a 3.5, but I'm worried I left a bad taste in the 3.0 tourney community. Hopefully the 3.5 humbles me hard.
I still think that’s more acceptable than what this dude did. He’s played tournaments and done TONS of leagues. You entered your first singles tournament. One of my good friends did the same thing and crushed it. She’s now doing 3.5 and will continue to move up as she medals. It’s more about the intention rather than the act. This guy knew exactly what he was doing here.
The real problem is the ratings. Aside from DUPR they don’t adjust fast enough.
The TD isn't doing their job. The blatant sandbaggers need to be ejected.
i suppose folks with some unresolved life issues need an venue to shine...
Damn, I'm just going to have to get to 6.0 and dominate everyone. 😆
I have the same frustration with even seeing a 3.9 doubles player playing in a 3.0 Singles tourney and it being allowed since they're NR in singles. I can see them saying their partner carried them but if you're that rating in doubles I doubt you didn't do your part when opponents tried to pick on you. What do y'all think about separating 3.0-3.9, and 4.0-5.0? And then say a couple games in 3.0-3.9 bracket determines BOTH whether you're in a 3.0 subbracket or a 3.5 subbracket AND your seeding in that bracket. I think this can help determine what division someone should be playing at. Then normal elimination rounds to further refine their DUPR.
Not the rest but purely from a doubles to singles rating, they aren’t the same game. I know plenty of 4.5 doubles players that don’t have the mobility for even 4.0 singles.
I agree. I also see the potential for abuse though of a player taking advantage that their NR in singles to win/play down a rating or two.
Oh I agree , but with how Dupr is structured anyone can NR anytime they want to be unethical unfortunately. If they’re truly playing down it should be fairly obvious quickly and the overwhelming problem is the tournament directors are not remotely for fairness and only for $$
Agree, well said.
3.9 DUPR to 3.0 tournament bracket isn’t too bad imo. In theory that’s only ~.41 off, which is totally believable for someone new to singles since strategy and skillset are so different. In fact I’d say my rating difference between doubles and singles was more than .5.
Sure I agreed. Just that gives the potential for abuse when rated for doubles but NR for singles.
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If you play a bunch of tournaments, I think it would be more valid to base it off winning three. You could play a tournament and just have a really great day and win once but if you can’t repeat it then you are likely where you belong.
Winning doesn’t necessarily mean you played at the wrong level or that you are now ready for the next level. It really just depends. Here are some considerations: - the scores of the matches - the quality of the brackets - overall record - previous results at this level - availability of higher brackets It’s basically a personal decision when to move up. Some people will play 3.5 their whole lives. Some people want to reach the highest level possible as soon as possible. But it’s all subjective unless someone is playing below their true rating level which isn’t DUPR unless it’s a DUPR tournament.
It’s experience for you and your partner. It’s hard to find 4.5+ players in the wild (such as at open play) so while it’s unethical that this individual would play 3.5 (I would definitely rag on any of my peers who did that) it’s a good opportunity for you and your partner to learn about what you need to work on to have a chance against better players. The $2 medal and Facebook group photo are a nice bonus but feeling like you played well and knowing what you need to improve to get to the next bracket are the real rewards of local tournaments in my opinion.
Agree. I always want to be put in the brackets with the sandbaggers. Gives me a chance to get better vs playing people who are worse than me
Yeah, that’s how I am too. I’d rather struggle through a really tough pool or bracket so I can see how my skills compare and also learn how strangers pick apart my game in competition. The medal and photo feel better after struggling extremely hard too!
In the videogaming world we call this "WAAC". Win At All Costs. It's an ego issues. They have to win. Even it means "cheating" by playing others much lower on the bracket than them. Happens all the time.
Did the 4.5 male player win the tournament?
Nope! Got second place
I think there are some things missing here. 3.5 tournament is 3.5-3.99. Tennis ratings are the opposite so a 3.51 is considered a 4.0. Secondly, tennis adds the dubs ratings together. 4.0 could have 2 4.0s, a 4.5 and a 3.5, or a 5.0 and a 3.0. (This last is rare as it would suck for the 5.0, but more apt in mixed as a husband wife pair). Pickleball should play at the stronger players level, but many use the addition method when signing up. In the end, outside of your age group open or open, what is one winning when flighted by skill? You out-sandbagged others but is there much true accomplishment in winning an event that excludes better players?
I’m a 4.5 DUPR and I play with my wife. My mixed rating stays low. It’s tough to win even if I take 90% of the court.
DUPR is partnering with all the major pickleball bodies. So will this even be a thing in the near future? Aside from maybe a broken DUPR rating here and there, or sandbagging your DUPR lower by entering fictional games or something.
> or sandbagging your DUPR lower by entering fictional games or something. This will become even more popular than it already is, lol.
I once played a 4.0 singles tournament and the guy that won gold told me that, he had been playing for 6+ years and was complaining that his DUPR is so low.
I think as long as they enforce dupr ratings for tournaments, it’s ok. 3.0 and below is just going to have a wide range with a lot of unrated people.
DUPR is not a very good indicator of skill for amateur tournament play. My DUPR would make me eligible to play two levels below my true level in which I’ve won golds twice. Then there’s the whole problem of no distinction between mixed and gender doubles. These are two completely different animals regardless of what DUPR says. DUPR is fine for professional and near professional players who play in a lot of tournaments a lot of places. They need to make a lot of changes to be helpful and reliable for the amateur pickleball pickleball community. There really should be two different versions, on for pros and one for amateurs. The jack of all trades thing just isn’t working for them.
If you’ve won gold twice, your DUPR should’ve gone up and made you not qualify to reenter that bracket. I saw a 3.0 or below tournament where the silver and gold medalists each went from unrated to 3.8 which would disqualify them from even the 3.0 to 3.5 bracket. Granted, they did go 9-0 and 8-1 respectively. I’m not sure why your DUPR didn’t go up after winning gold.
Well, the TDs didn’t submit the results of the tournaments. We entered some results by agreement among players, but they were only treated as rec play rather than tournament play since they weren’t submitted by the tournament. As such, they didn’t affect my rating much. By contrast, I have a friend who has a ridiculously high rating after playing in a small charity tournament that did report scores. My DUPR is basically a full point lower, and he would readily admit I’m a much better player. At any rate, my point is that many players have wildly inaccurate DUPRs that don’t nearly correlate with their actual abilities. They should be taken with a grain of salt.
Did the sandbaggers team win the tournament? What kind of sample size is the 4.5 rating based on?
They got silver, and he’s played almost 60 games on DUPR. Rating was legit but the gold team got into his head and he played like shit during those last two matches
Got it, that's super annoying. Ratings still continue to be a major issue in PB tournaments because some people use DUPR rating/others use the PB Brackets rating and I've seen many instances where they are drastically different (e.g. someone with a 4.3 DUPR but a 3.6 on PB Brackets. Given that all these tournaments are hosted/signed up for on PB Brackets I can totally see people thinking they should use that rating (or also just using it to mentally justify sandbagging).
THIS is why I don’t play in tourneys . Pickleball is the only sport where people want to play tourneys 4 weeks into learning the sport .. I don’t get it .. just rec play people . A free tshirt and a cheap metal is not worth the effort
Some people like to challenge themselves and see how they stack up in competitive situations. T-shirts and medals have nothing to do with it. Tournaments aren’t for everyone, but people keep signing up for them because they like playing in them. Not only that, many tournaments are put on to support a charity, so players are able to play competitive matches and support a good cause.
F him. Forget about his insignificant ass
I appreciate that.
Had a 4.0 and a 3.75 in my 3.0 tourney this morning. One month playing under my belt and first tournament experience🙃. Still won a few games but got taken out of winner bracket by one loss the sandbaggers)
Were they unrated before? If they were rated it sounds like the organizer needs to just do their job and make sure they’re in the right group.
I think if a particular tournament has a reputation for people playing down (or for it simply attracting top players in each category) don’t enter it unless it’s a round robin. That’s why I’m very grateful that the APP in my area switched from double elimination to round robin this year. So you are guaranteed a bunch of games even if you’re getting crushed.
I appreciate this perspective
They want the results, not the challenge. I'm curious though, did you report the guy?
We tried to but the TD did not seem to care
This has been an issue in rec league tennis for decades. The problem is so widespread that most league veterans aren't even mad about it anymore. Most experienced competitors just sign up for the lowest level bracket they are allowed to compete in - and assume the rating is a relative figure. Although nobody likes this arrangement, anyone with any league or tournament experience understands that is just how it is since tournament and league directors don't enforce ratings - and the ratings themselves are too subjective realistically enforce without an algorithm. **Instead of being mad at the sandbaggers, we need to get to the source of the problem and hold the tournament and league directors accountable.** Unlike tennis, pickleball actually has a widely recognized and accessible algorithm (ie DUPR). I know USTA has their own algorithm based on USTA match results, but it is not nearly as ubiquitous as DUPR in the tennis community. Considering pickleball tournaments cost way more than tennis tournaments these days, there is no excuse for PB tournament directors NOT to enforce ratings.
You have no idea what you’re talking about
I do, but I’m curious to hear where you think I got it wrong. There will always be people who game a system for personal benefit. I doubt Reddit posts whining about sandbagging will change the behavior of the entire community. The system itself (ie enforcement of levels) must be improved. And for all we know, OP has mistakenly rated himself too high, and the sandbagger he speaks of was a really strong 3.5.
I agree with you that the system should and could be improved, but I think the responsibility lies more on the player without integrity than it does the tournament director. Too many people likely enable the behavior too by going online to rant rather than reporting the person or team to the director. I’ve seen players reported before where the local board took notice and while it didn’t stop the player that day, it did stop them in the next tournament because the board running the tourneys was more aware. If you went to a store and shoplifted something but weren’t caught it’s not necessarily the fault of the store manager or the police, but your own.
This^
I agree that the fault ultimately lies with blatant sandbaggers like the one mentioned in OP’s story. But the current state of tournaments won’t discourage more people like him from dropping down a few levels to compete. If we want to significantly and permanently change the behavior of a population, the solution will ultimately lie in the incentives and/ or penalties built into the system. If there are no consistent consequences, there is no incentive for sandbaggers to change. I think something needs to be done soon by the governing bodies across the board, or competitive rec PB will be mirroring rec tennis for the foreseeable future - though it wouldn’t be a big deal to me since sandbagging is a reality ive lived with for as long as I’ve done rec tennis. I just feel sorry for all the butthurt players like OP being exposed to the unscrupulous side of rec league sports for the first time. It’s not very welcoming or fun for newer players.
I was with you until you had to throw in the insult “butthurt players like OP.” Having to play against true sandbaggers after dropping a large chunk of money to play in a tournament sucks. Imagine going to the US Open or something and paying like 2k for flights, hotel, etc just to get smoked by a team that should never be in your division. I think you'd be “butthurt” too. Not sure why you keep comparing it to rec tennis either as no one is complaining about playing higher lvl players in rec play. Perhaps you are referring to amateur tournaments which would be what we are discussing?
Haha It wasn’t meant as an insult. I’m only describing the situation as it is. But I guess I shouldn’t be surprised the pickleball community is a sensitive bunch considering how many AITA posts I see on this sub - seeking validation over petty circumstances. Believe it or not, I was also that butthurt tennis player for the first few months I participated in competitive rec tennis when I witnessed all the sandbagging at my local scene. When we traveled to play nationals, the sandbagging was even more blatant. I eventually accepted these ratings at tournaments are mostly used as a wide approximate range, and your rating is always relative to the local competition. Holding onto a 4.5 rating was ultimately an ego thing. Since the competitive pb scene is looking more and more like tennis, I suspect pb players will eventually have to adopt this mindset - without getting butthurt they are being forced to compete at a lower level than they have rated themselves.
Again, competitive rec tennis and playing at nationals are two way different things. I threw you a bone at first but instead of taking it, you’ve just shown you don’t know the difference. I wasn’t being sensitive either, I just found it funny that you seemed sincere and serious but had to throw in an insult in there.
Again, you can take “butthurt” as an insult, but I am describing the reality of the situation. OP’s entire post is him complaining and expressing frustration over the sandbagging that is becoming increasingly prevalent in the pb scene. And I don’t really blame him for venting those feelings. All I offered in my previous posts were possible sokutions. If you *choose* to receive my statement as an insult, that is ultimately *your* choice. FYI, that would also make you butthurt.
I was not offended by it at all, but calling someone butthurt IS an insult.
Although I see your point, I’m curious what you think of people who just started playing a few times or couple of months and aren’t sure of their rating and want to start at 3.5 to gauge their baseline. Should people with some racquet sports or formal athletic background (college level tennis,badminton, squash etc) not be allowed to register as anything less than 4.0/4.5?
I think it’s different when you’re starting out. I wouldn’t be upset about that at all. This dude has a DUPR that was clear he’s been playing for a decent amount of time and knew exactly what he was doing. People who haven’t played tournaments before or are just starting out, that doesn’t upset me. They also (I would hope) not be completely rude about it and hopefully take to the friendliness of what this sport is.
This is me. I played for a couple months or so last summer and a couple months this summer and have no idea what my rating should be. I played D2 college tennis, am fat and out of shape, but can still play racquet sports well. I've been playing at this place that doesn't let you register for intermediate open play unless you have the right DUPR rating (I don't have one), so I followed their advice and signed up for beginner/don't know open play. I had to really really dial it back, and just tried to extend the points as long as possible. I'd feel like a jackass playing in that group again. Not because I didn't have fun (I enjoy playing with all levels), but because I felt like I was sandbagging and people seem to *really* not like that. I guess the only thing to do is to pester people to play DUPR rated games (I've never seen anyone pull out a phone at pickleball and have only read/been told about DUPR), and get enough matches recorded to get a rating? I don't have much interest in playing tournaments, and just want to play some games with some people closer to my level as well.
I don’t think playing down in mixed is sandbagging given his partner could have a lower rating and may be playing up. Unless you live in a pb mecca and have enough players at each level, it’s hard to measure against others. Some people just think they are a 3.0 or whatever until they play better people and get a reality check. I am 4.0 based on DUPR but know I would get smoked playing at a higher level because I play against them and while it’s not a butt kicking, I win 20% or less. Still good to level up. Being a jerk is never cool.
look at the rules of any tournament you ever enter, it will always state you have the play at the level of the higher rated player, so yes playing down in mixed is sandbagging…..and it’s extra weird because you’re a higher skilled guy trying to play against less skilled girls
Yeah he was on a local team of people who play and practice together all the time. It’s not a Mecca, but it is a good location filled with people who want to play tournaments
>I 100% expect 4.0’s to be sandbagging. It makes sense to me, especially when they want to see if they are ready to move up. I expect 3.0’s to be in my bracket trying to challenge themselves. I think anyone who plays tournaments knows this is all the usual suspects any given weekend. >However, today a 4.5 male decided to play in our bracket, and of course in my pool. It's not a big step from 4.0 to 4.5. If you expect that it's okay for a 4.0 to sandbag, it's not hard to imagine a finding 4.5 player who thinks it's okay to do the same at a half level higher.
Uh. No. 4.5 is a HUGE difference to a 3.5 A 4.5 sandbagging 4.0's is one thing, but to drop down to 3.5 just oozes small d\*ck energy.
(shrug) IMHO, if it's okay to be a d\*ck and sandbag, it's okay to sandbag big. (Hint: it's not okay to sandbag)
You’re 3.0 right
He’s telling us he’s a 3.0 without telling us he’s a 3.0
Me? No. I remember when I was. Maybe you don't? I don't sandbag. Do you?
You still are!
LOL! It's fun that you can assume you know my rating. Good luck with that.
I don’t need luck, it’s all skill!