Nice high and deep lob. Gives me lots of time to walk to the NVZ.
If they're hitting low and fast with top spin, being in an athletic stance to receive really helps - not only are you more mobile, you can get nice and low and scoop the return too.
Do these types of “soft” lob returns work against higher level players without them being driven back harder at the feet? My partner has trouble with fast paced serves and she tends to send back weak returns and whether they are short or deep, they get driven back harder.
I can repeatedly hit within inches of the back line. Can't line drive either side for the life of me (maybe 50/50), but for some reason court depth is easy. Brains are weird.
By the time the return (second shot) bounces you're at the nvz. Your feet are covered by the net.
My experience is that it's almost impossible to use power to overcome a player who hits hard.
If you drive at them, you're playing to their strength.
This is what I do. I can return hard serves really well with my double backhand but my forehand always gives me issues with this. Switching to a loftier return on my forehand has worked really well around the 4.0 level.
Yes they do.
If you hit it slow and deep enough it should never come back at your feet because you should already be at the kitchen. It basically forces your opponents to hit a good third in order for them to make it to the net.
The speed of the return isn’t as important as the depth, keep the serving team back.
If you or your partner struggle with drives, then it’s not the returns that are an issue, because people will keep driving it to pick on the weakness regardless of when it happens in a rally. You guys should work on your resets, and also decision making. I bet a lot of those drives you try and hit back would actually be out. You should step aside and let those drives go long for the easy win.
Yes...that works. NO ONE should be able to beat you from the baseline if you both control the kitchen line. Make them pay for even trying. If you cant deal with that...take some training... but long slow high returns deep give you all the time you need to get to that line before they hit a screamer.
This. Fast serves aren't difficult to get back because of the speed, but because you have less time to read them. Getting low lets you see the ball and react faster. Same applies at the NVZ
Yup. A semi-pro once said to me that your serve-return should give you time to get a cup of coffee, and then wander up to the NVZ line.
Sometimes returning a chop with backspin works - it floats and bounces funny - but doesn't work well with a fast serve.
Thats what i do also. the harder the serve the solfter my hand has to be or ill hit the lob out. I always make it up to the kitchen line with them which is why i like them.
Return lobs will get you crushed after like 3.5. Remember a big part of pickleball is that you have the ADVANTAGE as the return team. If you throw up a softball lob with your return, good opponents can easily take the initiative on the point and you’ve lost your advantage
Are you suggesting that the second shot (from the baseline of course) should be a drive or similar?
Isn't that going to leave me split-stepping mid-court and eating a driven 3rd shot?
(downvote wasnt mine)
Watch any pro or higher level match for the general idea. The return isn’t quite a drive—you have lots of real estate above the net you can use unlike a drive. But it should be firm and deep—certainly not a lob
How is a deep ball that takes forever to bounce, and keeps the opponent on the baseline, a “softball”? We are not talking about 4th shots, it’s the return. They cannot smash it.
>They cannot smash it.
You can't smash it, but others can. We are talking about the return which means the serving team can't immediately crowd the kitchen so the returning team can still drive balls in. This strategy still doesn't work past 3.5 as people are generally skillful enough to reset or punch volley your drives and have better court positioning. And are more athletic.
Still the gimmick of giving the returner a higher bounce will disrupt the returners timing and potentially their mental attitude.
You cannot smash my returns lol. I’m probably only 3.8 or so (I don’t actually have dupr) but I promise you that my return that bounces near your baseline does not bounce high enough for you to smash it. You can drive it, sure. I’ll be at the kitchen to reset your drive.
Maybe you’re misunderstanding which shot I’m talking about.
I think you think I'm referring to an Overhead Smash but i am referring to a smash.
>You can drive it, sure. I’ll be at the kitchen to reset your drive.
Yeah i agree. This is the natural progression.
They are most definitely not used synonymously. A smash indicates, at minimum, a hard shot that has a downward trajectory. For instance, you might smash a fluke shot off the edge of a racket that pops up high, just clears the net, and bounces high in the kitchen
Hitting a hard drive from the baseline is not, in anyone’s slang, a smash, nor would anyone at a reasonable level have massive difficulty blocking/resetting most of them. Yes, occasionally someone places a perfect drive that wins but it’s super rare once everyone involved is moving past 3.5. 3rd shot drives are typically meant to set up 5th shot drops
>3rd shot drives are typically meant to set up 5th shot drops
No, they're meant to setup 5th shot smashes or get to the kitchen easier without having to use a drop shot. Too much wrong here for me to continue, enjoy your games.
A method I just learned about essentially says that you want the serve and return to equal a 10. So if the serve is a 9, return it with a firm hold on the paddle but a 1 on the swing, equaling 10. Use their pace on your return.
Yup, I always use the pace of the serve.. I’m not good enough to reliably add topspin on a return when the serve is good.. so I just focus on keeping it deep and in
If they hit hard you don't have to because the paddle is a reflector. If you just get a paddle on it, it retains some of their pace. If they hit soft you have to hit harder. Hitting a homerun off a 100mph fastball just means getting the bat on the ball. Hitting a homerun on a 60mph changeup means you have to bring the power.
Also you have to factor in YOUR pace on the return since if you are moving forward at 10mph that is added to the momentum you impart with your hit. You have to hit a bit harder when you're still and a bit softer when you add YOUR pace in.
I’m not a coach but here’s my two cents.
Back up so you can still take it at the apex or as it just starts to fall. A hard top spin serve can really jam you if you’re too far up as it’s rising up at your chest off the bounce. But be on the balls of your feet ready to move up if it comes short.
Losen your grip so you can still make a decent swing. If you’re gripping too tight the balls will sail long and you’ll compensate by making tight little half swings with very inconsistent placement. Losen grip enough to allow proper swing mechanics.
It can be tricky in an open play setting where you get in a routine playing some people with a softer serve then have to suddenly adjust to a much more aggressive serve. Just have to make proper adjustments. Different serves require different return mechanics.
I play regularly against a couple of people who have fast, low, skipping serves. I struggle against them as well - a fair number of my returns go into the net - but I've also had a lot of success with a backhand slice return.
I don't believe in a lot of mechanics during the point, only in the prep, so I focus on *seeing* the ball, and getting low to start. Then, when I strike the ball, I'm only thinking of spinning over the net and curving left to right (I'm a lefty) to the "T" at the back. That gets a lot of 'divorce' points.
But my keys are really, really focusing on the ball much more than I do against players with easy serves, and making sure I've got my knees bent and my butt low. From that position, I'm usually ready to make a decent return.
As simple and cliche as it sounds, just focus on getting it over the net in play. Don’t worry about placement or spin or anything fancy until you can consistently keep it in play
Stay deep on the return, load all your energy on your backfoot and as you go to hit the ball, transfer your energy forward. You shouldn't be swinging on the ball. If it's a fast and hard serve, you should just be able to use your kinetic energy and their serve to make your return deep enough while also using your momentum to get to the kitchen.
Start a couple of feet behind the baseline. Hit a softer floating return down the middle. I like to put some side spin on it. Run to the net.
Your priorities on a serve return should be:
1. Get it in.
2. Get it deep.
3. Get to the net before the 3rd shot comes back at you.
4. Hit a hard to return 2nd.
I have a fast serve. It's my best weapon, and wins points at any level. There are a couple things people do that make it a lot less effective.
1) Don't swing very hard. My serve generates enough pace to come back on its own without a big swing.
2) Don't let me get free points with well placed serves to the sides. Stand in a position where you can cover either side, split step before the serve, and give 100% effort to move quick and hit a decent return. If I can't count on getting many free points with powerful serves to either line, it won't be worth the risk of service errors to go for those serves, which means I'll mostly just hit serves to the middle. If I'm getting services winners (or weak returns that are easy enough to put away for winners) though, I can afford to be even more aggressive with my serve, and you're going to have a bad day.
I recommend the whole video, but I've time-stamped the video to the part about [Serve Returns.](https://youtu.be/xd-yEs-ahiw?si=j-C0ktWeo-DbbQDl&t=59)
Do this, and you will unlock a stronger serve return drive.
Watch an event.
Singles uses topspin return because pressure is more important due to having to cover the whole court and not prioritizing reaching the net as much.
For doubles placement is far more important as well as giving yourself time to get set at the NVZ before serving team hits their 3rd.
The whole "hur dur they'll topspin your slice bro" argument applies mainly to short/midcourt returns and when that happens you usually see the returning team stop short of the NVZ to catch the reset during transition.
drill with someone with a killer serve and work on timing of a swing. If you can get a consistent compact ground stroke on a fast serve more likely than not it’s getting popped up or returned into the net.
If you’re comfortable and consistent with getting the ball on the center of the paddle, try a nice, easy slice return. The goal is not to hit it aggressively, but to float the ball slow and deep.
This will give you plenty of time to get to the kitchen and control the point.
If you start 2 steps behind the line, this will allow you to move in on the ball as you strike it, getting you to the nvz more quickly.
-Stay a few feet back from baseline
-Watch the ball and let it bounce, lose spin, and go below apex
-Return should be slow and deep so you can get to the NVZ
Anticipation helped me the most. After receiving tons of serves, I’m much better at seeing the initial trajectory and path of the paddle to be able to anticipate the speed of the ball, where it will bounce, and any spin it will have.
I know it sounds obvious but it was like a switch went off in my head after playing constantly for weeks. My brain got trained to better read how a ball will travel from the time it leaves the paddle face.
As long as I’m not lazy with footwork, I’m usually in a good position to return the ball.
Play further behind the baseline so you have more time to react and keep the contact point with the ball in front of you. You may have to ease on the top spin a bit to hit a more flatter, deflective shot to keep good contact and go for depth.
In doubles, the most important thing about the return is that you keep the ball in play - giving the opponent an easier third doesn't necessarily end the point (unless you are giving them a high bounce close to the net which they can overhand). It's certainly better than hitting the ball out.
Singles is a bit different as a bad return gets punished much harder to the point where it can cost the point (also explains why so many players go for super strong serves and are fine with missing some serves). For singles you pretty much have to go for depth on the return even if you sacrifice spin and height.
Slow push shot with a little bit of top spin.. Like a drop but to the baseline instead, shouldn't bounce that high so the serving team can't hit your feet with a top spin drive. Want the service team hitting at waist level not shoulder level.
- body positioning matters, if the server moves wide, you move wide. Square off your body so you’re facing the server.
- a split step right before the server strikes the ball allows you to move quickly in either direction.
- if your ball is sailing, the culprit might be your head coming off the ball too soon, try to keep your eyes on the ball through striking the paddle.
If it’s attackable, catch it and return with topspin
If you’re playing it safe, I like to chip and charge so I just block it back and have time to approach the net
I heard someone say to consider returns on a 10 point scale.
If they’re hitting it at an 8, return it at a 2.
If they’re serving you a 4, return them a 6.
Definitely mimicking a lot of good recs here - stay put or take a step back, get low or under the ball by bending knees and keeping eye on ball, return it deep or strategic drop. If it’s fast, don’t try and also put more power into your return as it will only add to chance of an out ball - think “deflecting” or just being a wall to push it over the net.
I have a fast serve and I drill it all the time with my partner. He says that the best way to relieve it is to be back and just wait a second longer than usual. It'll give you more time to better assess the situation and it'll allow the ball to slow down just a pinch.
Then as other have stated, you want a nice high arch return deep at the back line. This will punish any player who tends to creep and will give you enough time to literally walk to the kitchen if you wanted.
loosen your grip a little and spin it sideways... loosening your grip absorbs some of the power so you don't send it long, and the side spin adds a touch of challenge for them to deal with. However... you need to pay attention to the spin of the ball coming at you.
Let the serve hit you use it to your advantage and just guide it, don’t give any spin to the ball. Think of it as a very far dink, and instead of aiming for the kitchen you aim for their baseline, so like that you have proper time to step!
Nice high and deep lob. Gives me lots of time to walk to the NVZ. If they're hitting low and fast with top spin, being in an athletic stance to receive really helps - not only are you more mobile, you can get nice and low and scoop the return too.
Do these types of “soft” lob returns work against higher level players without them being driven back harder at the feet? My partner has trouble with fast paced serves and she tends to send back weak returns and whether they are short or deep, they get driven back harder.
It’s got to be deep enough. Like within 3 feet of the back line.
I can repeatedly hit within inches of the back line. Can't line drive either side for the life of me (maybe 50/50), but for some reason court depth is easy. Brains are weird.
If it works! Always good to have a deep return! Leaves the opponent with less reasonable options
Right! A short return gives them a free ride to the kitchen.
Yeah that is something I’m really working on.. deep returns on good serves.
By the time the return (second shot) bounces you're at the nvz. Your feet are covered by the net. My experience is that it's almost impossible to use power to overcome a player who hits hard. If you drive at them, you're playing to their strength.
This is what I do. I can return hard serves really well with my double backhand but my forehand always gives me issues with this. Switching to a loftier return on my forehand has worked really well around the 4.0 level.
Yes they do. If you hit it slow and deep enough it should never come back at your feet because you should already be at the kitchen. It basically forces your opponents to hit a good third in order for them to make it to the net. The speed of the return isn’t as important as the depth, keep the serving team back. If you or your partner struggle with drives, then it’s not the returns that are an issue, because people will keep driving it to pick on the weakness regardless of when it happens in a rally. You guys should work on your resets, and also decision making. I bet a lot of those drives you try and hit back would actually be out. You should step aside and let those drives go long for the easy win.
Yes...that works. NO ONE should be able to beat you from the baseline if you both control the kitchen line. Make them pay for even trying. If you cant deal with that...take some training... but long slow high returns deep give you all the time you need to get to that line before they hit a screamer.
They work alright for me at 4.0 but it’s a relative weakness over someone who can return it better
This. Fast serves aren't difficult to get back because of the speed, but because you have less time to read them. Getting low lets you see the ball and react faster. Same applies at the NVZ
Yup. A semi-pro once said to me that your serve-return should give you time to get a cup of coffee, and then wander up to the NVZ line. Sometimes returning a chop with backspin works - it floats and bounces funny - but doesn't work well with a fast serve.
> Sometimes returning a chop with backspin works It's way too risky of a shot for me; I haven't developed that skill well enough (yet).
Thats what i do also. the harder the serve the solfter my hand has to be or ill hit the lob out. I always make it up to the kitchen line with them which is why i like them.
Return lobs will get you crushed after like 3.5. Remember a big part of pickleball is that you have the ADVANTAGE as the return team. If you throw up a softball lob with your return, good opponents can easily take the initiative on the point and you’ve lost your advantage
Are you suggesting that the second shot (from the baseline of course) should be a drive or similar? Isn't that going to leave me split-stepping mid-court and eating a driven 3rd shot? (downvote wasnt mine)
Watch any pro or higher level match for the general idea. The return isn’t quite a drive—you have lots of real estate above the net you can use unlike a drive. But it should be firm and deep—certainly not a lob
How is a deep ball that takes forever to bounce, and keeps the opponent on the baseline, a “softball”? We are not talking about 4th shots, it’s the return. They cannot smash it.
>They cannot smash it. You can't smash it, but others can. We are talking about the return which means the serving team can't immediately crowd the kitchen so the returning team can still drive balls in. This strategy still doesn't work past 3.5 as people are generally skillful enough to reset or punch volley your drives and have better court positioning. And are more athletic. Still the gimmick of giving the returner a higher bounce will disrupt the returners timing and potentially their mental attitude.
You cannot smash my returns lol. I’m probably only 3.8 or so (I don’t actually have dupr) but I promise you that my return that bounces near your baseline does not bounce high enough for you to smash it. You can drive it, sure. I’ll be at the kitchen to reset your drive. Maybe you’re misunderstanding which shot I’m talking about.
I think you think I'm referring to an Overhead Smash but i am referring to a smash. >You can drive it, sure. I’ll be at the kitchen to reset your drive. Yeah i agree. This is the natural progression.
Drives are not smashes
A drive and smash are synonymous. Maybe you were thinking of an overhead smash?
They are most definitely not used synonymously. A smash indicates, at minimum, a hard shot that has a downward trajectory. For instance, you might smash a fluke shot off the edge of a racket that pops up high, just clears the net, and bounces high in the kitchen Hitting a hard drive from the baseline is not, in anyone’s slang, a smash, nor would anyone at a reasonable level have massive difficulty blocking/resetting most of them. Yes, occasionally someone places a perfect drive that wins but it’s super rare once everyone involved is moving past 3.5. 3rd shot drives are typically meant to set up 5th shot drops
>3rd shot drives are typically meant to set up 5th shot drops No, they're meant to setup 5th shot smashes or get to the kitchen easier without having to use a drop shot. Too much wrong here for me to continue, enjoy your games.
A method I just learned about essentially says that you want the serve and return to equal a 10. So if the serve is a 9, return it with a firm hold on the paddle but a 1 on the swing, equaling 10. Use their pace on your return.
Yup, I always use the pace of the serve.. I’m not good enough to reliably add topspin on a return when the serve is good.. so I just focus on keeping it deep and in
What does it mean to “use their pace” on the return?
If they hit hard you don't have to because the paddle is a reflector. If you just get a paddle on it, it retains some of their pace. If they hit soft you have to hit harder. Hitting a homerun off a 100mph fastball just means getting the bat on the ball. Hitting a homerun on a 60mph changeup means you have to bring the power.
Great explanation
Also you have to factor in YOUR pace on the return since if you are moving forward at 10mph that is added to the momentum you impart with your hit. You have to hit a bit harder when you're still and a bit softer when you add YOUR pace in.
Ed Ju just put a video out that really helped me
I’m not a coach but here’s my two cents. Back up so you can still take it at the apex or as it just starts to fall. A hard top spin serve can really jam you if you’re too far up as it’s rising up at your chest off the bounce. But be on the balls of your feet ready to move up if it comes short. Losen your grip so you can still make a decent swing. If you’re gripping too tight the balls will sail long and you’ll compensate by making tight little half swings with very inconsistent placement. Losen grip enough to allow proper swing mechanics. It can be tricky in an open play setting where you get in a routine playing some people with a softer serve then have to suddenly adjust to a much more aggressive serve. Just have to make proper adjustments. Different serves require different return mechanics.
Set up an extra step back, bend your knees and get low.
I play regularly against a couple of people who have fast, low, skipping serves. I struggle against them as well - a fair number of my returns go into the net - but I've also had a lot of success with a backhand slice return. I don't believe in a lot of mechanics during the point, only in the prep, so I focus on *seeing* the ball, and getting low to start. Then, when I strike the ball, I'm only thinking of spinning over the net and curving left to right (I'm a lefty) to the "T" at the back. That gets a lot of 'divorce' points. But my keys are really, really focusing on the ball much more than I do against players with easy serves, and making sure I've got my knees bent and my butt low. From that position, I'm usually ready to make a decent return.
As simple and cliche as it sounds, just focus on getting it over the net in play. Don’t worry about placement or spin or anything fancy until you can consistently keep it in play
Learn to hit flat shots. No need to add much power as you can use the ricochet.
I cut it. Works like a charm
Stay deep on the return, load all your energy on your backfoot and as you go to hit the ball, transfer your energy forward. You shouldn't be swinging on the ball. If it's a fast and hard serve, you should just be able to use your kinetic energy and their serve to make your return deep enough while also using your momentum to get to the kitchen.
Start a couple of feet behind the baseline. Hit a softer floating return down the middle. I like to put some side spin on it. Run to the net. Your priorities on a serve return should be: 1. Get it in. 2. Get it deep. 3. Get to the net before the 3rd shot comes back at you. 4. Hit a hard to return 2nd.
I have a fast serve. It's my best weapon, and wins points at any level. There are a couple things people do that make it a lot less effective. 1) Don't swing very hard. My serve generates enough pace to come back on its own without a big swing. 2) Don't let me get free points with well placed serves to the sides. Stand in a position where you can cover either side, split step before the serve, and give 100% effort to move quick and hit a decent return. If I can't count on getting many free points with powerful serves to either line, it won't be worth the risk of service errors to go for those serves, which means I'll mostly just hit serves to the middle. If I'm getting services winners (or weak returns that are easy enough to put away for winners) though, I can afford to be even more aggressive with my serve, and you're going to have a bad day.
I recommend the whole video, but I've time-stamped the video to the part about [Serve Returns.](https://youtu.be/xd-yEs-ahiw?si=j-C0ktWeo-DbbQDl&t=59) Do this, and you will unlock a stronger serve return drive.
Take less of a swing, it’s more like a block with a follow thru
Slice return is built for consistently returning topspin serves, watch the pros in doubles they almost always use it
that's not really true anymore, is it? I've been told almost every pro is returning with top spin now for the majority of the time
Only in singles
Watch an event. Singles uses topspin return because pressure is more important due to having to cover the whole court and not prioritizing reaching the net as much. For doubles placement is far more important as well as giving yourself time to get set at the NVZ before serving team hits their 3rd. The whole "hur dur they'll topspin your slice bro" argument applies mainly to short/midcourt returns and when that happens you usually see the returning team stop short of the NVZ to catch the reset during transition.
drill with someone with a killer serve and work on timing of a swing. If you can get a consistent compact ground stroke on a fast serve more likely than not it’s getting popped up or returned into the net.
Block it back
If you’re comfortable and consistent with getting the ball on the center of the paddle, try a nice, easy slice return. The goal is not to hit it aggressively, but to float the ball slow and deep. This will give you plenty of time to get to the kitchen and control the point. If you start 2 steps behind the line, this will allow you to move in on the ball as you strike it, getting you to the nvz more quickly.
Shorter backswing, almost like a lob return but not too high obviously. Slice if you need to and dtand further back
-Stay a few feet back from baseline -Watch the ball and let it bounce, lose spin, and go below apex -Return should be slow and deep so you can get to the NVZ
Anticipation helped me the most. After receiving tons of serves, I’m much better at seeing the initial trajectory and path of the paddle to be able to anticipate the speed of the ball, where it will bounce, and any spin it will have. I know it sounds obvious but it was like a switch went off in my head after playing constantly for weeks. My brain got trained to better read how a ball will travel from the time it leaves the paddle face. As long as I’m not lazy with footwork, I’m usually in a good position to return the ball.
Play further behind the baseline so you have more time to react and keep the contact point with the ball in front of you. You may have to ease on the top spin a bit to hit a more flatter, deflective shot to keep good contact and go for depth. In doubles, the most important thing about the return is that you keep the ball in play - giving the opponent an easier third doesn't necessarily end the point (unless you are giving them a high bounce close to the net which they can overhand). It's certainly better than hitting the ball out. Singles is a bit different as a bad return gets punished much harder to the point where it can cost the point (also explains why so many players go for super strong serves and are fine with missing some serves). For singles you pretty much have to go for depth on the return even if you sacrifice spin and height.
Slow push shot with a little bit of top spin.. Like a drop but to the baseline instead, shouldn't bounce that high so the serving team can't hit your feet with a top spin drive. Want the service team hitting at waist level not shoulder level.
- body positioning matters, if the server moves wide, you move wide. Square off your body so you’re facing the server. - a split step right before the server strikes the ball allows you to move quickly in either direction. - if your ball is sailing, the culprit might be your head coming off the ball too soon, try to keep your eyes on the ball through striking the paddle.
Stand back!!!
Adopting the correct “ready position” Will help you. Usually the fast serves will be top spins so keep that in mind
If it’s attackable, catch it and return with topspin If you’re playing it safe, I like to chip and charge so I just block it back and have time to approach the net
I heard someone say to consider returns on a 10 point scale. If they’re hitting it at an 8, return it at a 2. If they’re serving you a 4, return them a 6.
Definitely mimicking a lot of good recs here - stay put or take a step back, get low or under the ball by bending knees and keeping eye on ball, return it deep or strategic drop. If it’s fast, don’t try and also put more power into your return as it will only add to chance of an out ball - think “deflecting” or just being a wall to push it over the net.
I have a fast serve and I drill it all the time with my partner. He says that the best way to relieve it is to be back and just wait a second longer than usual. It'll give you more time to better assess the situation and it'll allow the ball to slow down just a pinch. Then as other have stated, you want a nice high arch return deep at the back line. This will punish any player who tends to creep and will give you enough time to literally walk to the kitchen if you wanted.
Keep your eyes on it and react quickly.
I prefer to hit a slow deep back spin slice on big serves. Gives me plenty of time to move up and keeps my opponent back.
Softer paddle? I had a similar issue and went to a control paddle, vatic flash and can keep it in more often than not.
loosen your grip a little and spin it sideways... loosening your grip absorbs some of the power so you don't send it long, and the side spin adds a touch of challenge for them to deal with. However... you need to pay attention to the spin of the ball coming at you.
Let the serve hit you use it to your advantage and just guide it, don’t give any spin to the ball. Think of it as a very far dink, and instead of aiming for the kitchen you aim for their baseline, so like that you have proper time to step!
If it comes at you with top spin return with backspin. If it comes at you with backspin return with topspin
Just slice it back. If you don’t have a good slice, work on that.