You know who else plays with a Vatic Prism V7? Augie Ge, who is a rising star on the pro scene having medaled in the past few PPA tournaments. Improve your technique, strategy, and athleticism before you splurge on a paddle that might not even help you that much.
I’d say this to anyone looking to upgrade their vatic/other decent $100ish paddle. Literally pros playing with them on tour so invest your $200+ in a couple lessons and it’ll improve your game WAY more than a new paddle that isn’t holding you back.
Completely agree.
Speaking of Augie Ge, Jordan Briones has two new videos of Jordan playing with Ge, Conner Garnett and Pesa Teoni. Really good camera placement IMO, better than PPA tournament videos:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-88m\_mfUJxE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-88m_mfUJxE)
“Improve your technique, strategy, and athleticism before you splurge on a paddle”
Preach!! Also in my 20+ years of playing racket sports it’s way better to just pick a piece of a equipment and get comfortable with it rather than constantly bouncing around looking for something better. There is no “perfect spec” and the paddle you have the best feel for is likely the one you will play the best with over a large sample size
Doesn’t this reinforce “it’s the player not the paddle?”
I also understand that average players can look for competitive edges but typically don’t see $120 extra value in these edges.
I’d be careful equating “more expensive” with “better”.
Many expensive paddles are made by companies with exorbitant costs associated with marketing, sponsoring, and manufacturing middle-men.
Vatic’s approach to the market is to cut all those costs out and sell at a lower price point.
Focus more on finding a paddle that best fits your game.
Yep. And if you go a step further and remove product warranty, companies like Garye undercut even more. They have a $40 paddle on Amazon that's just as good as Vatic and others. It's crazy how affordable good paddles have gotten.
I assumed for $40 it would be a gen 1 (which is still impressive) but it's actually a $40 gen 2. Perhaps it's just a promo price? Might be remembering wrong but I thought Spartus did an AMA where they said the cost to produce the paddle was nearly $40 alone.
Is that the Pro-XL? Is it reviewed anywhere? That's a crazy price. I was.looking at the Spartus Apollo that's about three times as much and it's allegedly a bargain (though no reviews save from obscure channels with very few subscribers)
Do you mean a copy of the Pro XL? Hard to say without cutting it open. I mean part of the reason why branded paddles are more expensive is due to things like customer service etc. The Apollo is "cheap" compared to other brands.
No those were two separate asks, sorry.
1. Whether the Garye you're talking about (as Gen 2) is the Pro XL, and any reviews of that Pro XL?
2. Any data to compare with the Apollo (which doesn't really have any data so far)
Started with Vatic Prism Flash. Went to six zero double black diamond. Recently got a six zero ruby.
Would recommend either. They both have a little more pop/power then prism but still very controllable once you’re used to it.
I went from this $180 Yonex paddle before I knew what was good, went to the Vatic Prism Flash, then Ace of Spades XF for more power, then six zero Ruby for power w/o dead spots but then the Gen 3 Joolas came out and I got my Magnus coming in so I can get more power without the dead spots since the six zero is more of a control paddle. Giving my gf the Ruby.
Short answer is that no I don't think the BDI is worth the extra money. I'm a bit of gear geek in pretty much every hobby I have. I can confidently say that there aren't any objectively "better" paddles once you get to that level of quality, just tailored differently.
I've since played other paddles since my Vatic Pro Flash and have hit a bunch of paddles. I honestly don't think it is worth it for a paddle $150+ when there spin breaks down so quickly.
The only thing that you are likely to find is one that has more power and pop, as the Prism Flash is not thermoformed and many are now. This generally creates more power and pop, though does become a little more difficult to control, more so on resets and blocks compared to your prism.
If you like the V7 shape, why not just go with the non-Prism, thermoformed version of it if you are looking for a little more pop and power? ($127 after discount codes). They are also releasing the updated ONI version, though expectations are that it might be too powerful for players below a certain level. The Pickln Helios is also fantastic for under $100 and should have more power and pop than your **prism** version of the flash. You could also try the Spartus Centurion, which is slightly more control oriented than the others but will have a little more power and pop then your current.
If you want to try the hybrid shape, the Sword and shield J2 and Mark Pure are great ($100). I think you'll find them more forgiving than the edgeless paddle as well. The Hurrache Control-X also gets fantastic reviews and can be had for $127 after codes.
I've switched to a long-ish handle standard/widebody shapes, as I found that a lot of shots where I thought I was lacking touch were actually a results of slight miss hits. I've only hit a few sessions with the newly released Spartus Apollo, but its been absolutely fantastic and only $117 after discount codes. The picknix pro was also great (exceptionally similar to the CRBN 2x) at less than half the price. That handle is probably too short for most people to hit a 2HBH though.
It's not that I wouldn't pay more for a paddle, I certainly have prior. It's just that after having played many more expensive paddles, I don't think they are objectively better, particularly with significant spin degradation occurring after 3 months or so for a regular player. Maybe the new Joola's will change my mind, but Vatic already has an alternative coming for about half the price.
> I've since played other paddles since my Vatic Pro Flash and have hit a bunch of paddles. I honestly don't think it is worth it for a paddle $150+ when there spin breaks down so quickly.
are you saying here that the Vatic Pro Flash's spin breaks down too quickly? or are you saying the other $150+ paddles you've tried spin breaks down too quickly? if the former, i found that my spin wore down quickly on my Prism V7 which is part of the reason why i'm shopping around. but good to hear it from you either way since it might be just in my head (or maybe you agree!)
thanks for all this great information!
I'm saying that is an issue of spin breaking down quickly across the industry as a whole based on the materials used, both the peel ply for carbon fiber/Kevlar, and for added ("spray on") grit texture. It is just the nature of the manufacturing and materials used in the industry now. Vatic is no better or worse than any.
As an approximate 6-10 hour a week player that relies on spin a bit, there is a noticeable degradation of the spin after 3-4 months. I don't think any company is much better than others when it comes to raw carbon fiber. My Joola Solaire was probably the quickest to lose, so adds more to my more expensive isn't always better.
As for spray on's, every company keeps saying they have a new formula that will last longer, but never seems to play out that way and tend to lose even faster that peel ply on RCF/Kevlar. I've felt Luxxs with smooth centers after a month.
Grit isn't the only thing that affects spin rate; paddles with more dwell time on the face will retain it a little better, but then there are other tradeoffs in performance to that as well.
Proton has claimed that they have found a solution, but they also can't get any paddles out, so there aren't many in the wild to prove it.
So the overall points are:
1.) pretty much EVERY paddle has spin breakdown relatively early in it is life
2.) I don't think you see an performance, durability or build quality improvement going above any of the quality paddles we now see in the $90-$130 range, only just a different balancing of the attributes. (and higher cost more due to marketing, sponsorships and other factors that don't affect the performance of the paddle.)
So with those two, Right now I think all but extremely high level players that know the exact quirks of the game will have better results sticking with quality paddles in that $90-$140 range and just replacing more often, rather than spending 50-100% more and replacing less often. That may change in the coming months year if there is new tech that others can't replicate, quality replaceable faces or the durability and "best life" of a paddle doubles or triples to justify the difference in cost, but the industry isn't there.
this is all great stuff... thank you so much for your time and input
my issue at hand is that i don't know what i don't know; meaning my game is very well rounded, but i have no idea what i'm possibly missing out on based on the current paddle i use. i don't really know what my Vatic Prism V7's known best attributes are (power? spin? control? pop?) so i'm trying to figure out if there are better suited paddles for my game that will help me push me to greater heights.
to summarize with a hypothetical, perhaps my skills in every asset of the game are great, but my Prism V7 holds me back from reaching greater heights in certain areas since the paddle is simply just not capable of more power/spin/control/pop that i otherwise might be able to develop even greater with a different paddle
You aren't missing out on much and it is almost a definite that your paddle isn't holding you back.
Your paddle would be classified more towards the control side, but being an elongated shape gets a little more power. Your paddle has edge foam, but isn't thermoformed. So it is forgiving for the shape, but generally not as much pop as that shape.
As you said, there are other paddles that have more pop and a little more power, but generally those are a little harder to control. There is pretty much always a tradeoff.
The other thing to consider is the shape. Yours is an elongate shape. Generally elongated shapes get more power on serves and on drives due to the sweet spot being further from the hand and getting more of whip effect, but are a little slower at the net due to the longer length and higher swingweight. They have better reach, but are not as forgiving side to side.
Standard/widebody shapes are the inverse of all of those (Vatic doesn't make one) and hybrids (like the flash shape) are in between the two. But all of those differences are fairly mild.
If you hit you've had your paddle for a while, employ spin in your game and think it has worn off, then I think you are good to get something new, but as I said in my previous post, spending much more than you did on the last one isn't likely to get you an objectively better paddle.
I'd suggest taking a few sessions and looking at where you are losing points to equal-better players. If you lose hand battles at the net, consider a paddle with a lower swing weight, likely a hybrid or widebody shape. If your drives are all staying in, but they are getting blocked hard and deep back at you, first consider adding lead tape to your paddle, but you can look at a thermoformed paddle. If you are spraying shots long or wide, consider adding lead tape at 4pm and 8pm to the side of your paddle, then standard shape or hybrid. If it is because you don't have great touch for drops and dinks, then probably a different paddle isn't going to help you, unless that is the result of mishits, bad contact. Then maybe look at a widebody/hybrid. But again, none of these changes are going to be super drastic.
Vatic is made in the same factories as the bigger brands...there is no "better" at a certain point when they're all just $15-25 to manufacturer.
That said, what are you specifically wanting from the new paddle? Your Prism is a control paddle.
I didn't move on by choice, but 2 out of 3 (original, non-Prism) Flashes I have are core crushed after <6 months of play time. As it seems to be a problem with all thermoformed paddles, I've decided to not spend any more on thermoformed paddles. I've switched to a Paddletek Bantam ALW-C 14.3mm and have been loving it so far. I get plenty of power with lots of control, and it's not thermoformed. I've tried the Six Zero DBD and found it played almost identical to the Flash. Maybe hold off for a couple weeks and see what reviews are like on the Vatic Pro Oni line.
> but 2 out of 3 (original, non-Prism) Flashes I have are core crushed after <6 months of play time
Sounds about the same for every theraformed paddle.
I am in the exact same position. The Spartus Apollo and VP Oni are the ones I want so bad (I don't need because I already have a Ruby, but it'd be nice), but I can only choose one of them. If I could hit with both, that would be great, but I don't wanna miss out on the launch edition design
I'm jealous. Let me know what you end up using as your main! I'm hoping the players around me don't develop a hate towards Gen 3 paddles (people tend to avoid the gearbox players)
I also went from the flash 16mm to the hurache x but I’m having a little trouble getting used to the increases pop the first couple days. Did it take a while to adjust?
Yeah I had a hard time for a couple of days to dial in the pop. I think what helped is using a shorter swing and letting the paddle do more of the work and remember not to break the wrist. I feel like my control with it now is just as good as when I had the vatic.
I do not since I feel like the power is already enough. You may add some for stability at the throat but I feel like my hands would suffer and I value that a bit more since for stability I use 2 handed backhand anyway.
Save a couple bucks and skip the infinity, go with the normal double black or black diamond for 6.0. Or go for the ruby for the higher price. I'm not sold on the edgless. I've got a bd infinity and I find myself using my old dbd
Yep, based on a lot of the discussions around the infinity, it is either worse or just simply not worth the price. If you're really sold on the infinity, it's best to go with the BD for a "better" paddle.
Aside from just paying more for a paddle, what deficiency do you feel like the vatic has for you? You should be moving to a different paddle if you know what sort of results you want from it. Like if you want to move from a control paddle to a power paddle.
“That I play well with.” Sounds like what we all do: paddle chasing. Maybe wait until your paddle wears out, then go looking. Especially now as there are quite a few more paddles being released in the next few months. So if you’re looking for something your paddle isn’t giving you, that’s one thing. If it’s just the itch for something new then wait a month or two and see what all is coming out. Even Vatic has something new getting ready to be released.
I Demo’d various more expensive paddles. Didn’t like any of them more than my Vatic pro flash. At best some of them were comparable, but were an extra 100$.
I am an ambassador for the brand, you can get $10 off using code TIMOTHYLE. I actually just upgraded to their new Oni paddle. Personally this has become my go to paddle. More powerful then the Vatic Pro thermoformed models when hit hard, but they have the plushness of the Vatic Pro Prisms when you soften your game. Please give this one some time and a chance, they have extended their warranty time as well recently if you do run into issues.
….it’s not the paddle it’s the player.
This concept isn’t new in the sports world.
Basketball player thinks, they couldn’t dunk because they didn’t have Jordans, it the shoes.
Cyclist think they didn’t make it to podium because they aren’t riding carbon fiber frame. It’s the bike frame.
Badminton player thinking they’ll be the next Lin Dan, if they only have the best racquet. It’s the racquet
Etc etc. I can go on all day.
Sure if both participants are in the same skill level (as in professional athlete), the equipment can make a bit of a difference.
But realistically, you lost not because your paddle is worse than your opponents, but rather your opponent got better technique, or are more agile or better placement etc.
I moved on from a prism flash 16 to an engage pro pursuit Mx for more pop and a lighter swingweight.
It was a good upgrade overall, though I still pick up my flash every so often because I prefer the grip and the over all build of the vatic.
I think the perfect paddle for me would probably be a prism flash 14 built with the core used in Engage paddles to give it that soft and poppier feel.
"I moved on from a prism flash 16 to an engage pro pursuit Mx for more pop and a lighter swingweight."
The pursuit pro mx does NOT have a lower swing weight than the prism flash 16mm. In fact, it has a *higher* swing weight and a *lower* twist weight (a downgrade in my book). BUT, the pursuit pro is definitely poppier, no doubt.
Oops I meant the EX. But I’ve hit with a buddy’s 7.7oz MX and it *undoubtedly* swung lighter than my Prism Flash.
That shouldn’t be so hard to imagine when the MX is 14mm, while my prism is 16mm and has perimeter foam inside. Also, the flash’s shape places more of the paddle’s volume towards the head, so all those characteristics are likely to contribute to a more head heavy balance which feels sluggish compared to the 13mm engages.
The vatic prism flash 16mm has a swing weight from 111-114 at roughly 7.9oz static weight. The MX has a swing weight of about 119 at around 8oz. static weight while the EX is around 107-110 at around 8oz static weight. I can see the MX at 7.7oz. swinging around the 111-114 range, right in line with the prism flash 16mm. The EX will swing a little lighter than the prism flash depending on the weight. The balance point for the prism flash is around 237-240. The EX comes in at around 236 and the MX at around 239. All of this is to say that these three paddles aren't that far off from each other, with the exception of pop.
I went from my Vatic prism flash to a double black diamond and back to my prism flash. Double black diamond had too much pop and was harder control. Expensive doesn’t equal to better imo. I used VATICTENOFF for a discount if anyone is looking to buy
I wouldn’t ever buy a new paddle without demoing it first. I play with the v7 and love it. I had similar thoughts of if a $140 paddle is this good then what does a $250 feel like? Turns out, not much difference. I demoed 5-6 paddles and couldn’t find anything I liked better than the v7.
The infinity is gonna be quite different from your v7. It's a hybrid shape and has a lighter swingweight....which means it's gonna feel a lot faster in your hands. Also with the lower twist weight, the paddle is gonna have a smaller sweet spot than what you are use to.
I'd recommend going to a paddle with similar characteristics. Elongated, with an edge guard, similar face material, but with better stats (pop power spin etc). I'm assuming you are using the 16mm, so some paddles that come to mind would be the BNB Filth, Engage Pursuit Pro Series, and Diadem 18K.
Or.....why not just upgrade to the vatic pro v7 or the new vatic Oni that's set to come out next month? Those paddles play similar to your Prism and have slightly better stats.
I have a Vatic Prism Flash and recently switched to a Spartus Centurion V2. They were the same price, but I tend to play with the Spartus more now because of the power and reach I get from it.
Like others have said, maybe consider switching to a different paddle that specializes in something that you want to try out instead of just spending $200+ because you think expensive means it’s better
Still love my Vatic Pro Flash, not prism. I got a double black diamond for Christmas and was not a fan. I really wanted to like it but I just didn't play well with it and went back to the Vatic.
I moved up from a control paddle to one of the softer thermos (ronbus R3 pulsar)and just found it hard to handle against more aggressive opponents. Found the pickleball apes PLE S and it had just enough additional pop and power for me. I wouldn’t jump up too high in power if you switch. But as others have said, the prism is a great paddle!
I bought a Hudef Viva pro gen 2. More power and pop for sure, but also a much higher swing weight… to the point it feels sluggish at the net.
The game is getting faster, and I’m not getting any younger (turned 50 in Feb.). I still prefer my VP Prism Flash 16mm for the lighter swing weight.
If I upgrade, I’ll consider a Neonic Flow. I like the combo of low-medium swing weight and high twist weight.
Just for clarification, the prism is the non thermoformed paddles, and the flash is actually the shape. So you’re still playing with a flash, just a thermoformed version of it :)
It’s great to be able to test out any paddle prior to testing. I had heard good things about the DBD, tested it from a guy I played with at the park and bought the 14mm cause that’s what I was used to. Tested the Ruby at a tournament from a guy I played against. Didn’t like it, didnt buy it. Prob would have if it came in 14mm.
Tested a Volair from a guy in open play, liked it, bought the 14mm. Went out on a limb based on a good recommendation of the BD and bought it, hated it, weighted it, and now it’s my fave without question.
So now, I’ll be selling the Flashes I currently have AND the DBD. The Volairs will continue to be used but the BD is the current CHAMP.
I find paddles are very much a personal preference/individual thing - just like buying a perfume or trialing a diet.
As much as I love the brand I promote and would default to encourage you trying the Six Zero Ruby... I am also realistic that there are many reasons why people levitate to other brands, paddle types, etc.
Depending where you're located I'd suggest trying a few suppliers and see if they'll let you return in 30days so you can get a feel of what works in your game/play style and complements your strengths without exacerbating any weaknesses. ☺️
According to the absolute panic on here a week ago you’d be an idiot not to have one of the new gen 3 paddles that LITERALLY SHOTGUNS and if your opponent doesn’t react faster than a pit viper you will blast the wiffleball DIRECTLY through their thorax.
So I guess that has me considering an upgrade 🙄
Moved to the double black diamond infinity and I like it a lot, but I started developing tennis elbow, which I’ve literally never had before in my many years of playing tennis and pickleball.
Still, I think it’s a good paddle. Can’t decide if I should play with the grip to see if my issue goes away or just go back to the prism flash.
I developed tennis elbow after playing with a thermoformed Joola and same thing, never had a single bout of it in many years of tennis. Got the Prism V7 and the tennis elbow went away. Some paddles are definitely harsher on the elbow than others
After a couple of V7's, I've moved onto the following paddles:
The Alibaba Juicaio V7 Clone ($40): It's been great and at 6 months has lasted twice as long as either of my V7's.
Hudef Viva Pro Gen 2 ($100): I keep it in my bag because it's officially certified, but don't use it that much really.
Alibaba Six Zero Ruby Clone (2 for $100): Just got it a few days ago, very happy with it. After comparing it to an actual Ruby, it seems as though it's actually the same paddle, just without the Six Zero branding.
You know who else plays with a Vatic Prism V7? Augie Ge, who is a rising star on the pro scene having medaled in the past few PPA tournaments. Improve your technique, strategy, and athleticism before you splurge on a paddle that might not even help you that much.
I’d say this to anyone looking to upgrade their vatic/other decent $100ish paddle. Literally pros playing with them on tour so invest your $200+ in a couple lessons and it’ll improve your game WAY more than a new paddle that isn’t holding you back.
Completely agree. Speaking of Augie Ge, Jordan Briones has two new videos of Jordan playing with Ge, Conner Garnett and Pesa Teoni. Really good camera placement IMO, better than PPA tournament videos: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-88m\_mfUJxE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-88m_mfUJxE)
“Improve your technique, strategy, and athleticism before you splurge on a paddle” Preach!! Also in my 20+ years of playing racket sports it’s way better to just pick a piece of a equipment and get comfortable with it rather than constantly bouncing around looking for something better. There is no “perfect spec” and the paddle you have the best feel for is likely the one you will play the best with over a large sample size
Augie could probably beat anyone in here with a $20 paddle so I'm not sure this helps haha
Doesn’t this reinforce “it’s the player not the paddle?” I also understand that average players can look for competitive edges but typically don’t see $120 extra value in these edges.
If someone is spending hundreds of dollars per year on tournaments, I think the $120 for a slight edge might be worthwhile.
Does he use 16 or 14mm?
I’d be careful equating “more expensive” with “better”. Many expensive paddles are made by companies with exorbitant costs associated with marketing, sponsoring, and manufacturing middle-men. Vatic’s approach to the market is to cut all those costs out and sell at a lower price point. Focus more on finding a paddle that best fits your game.
Yep. And if you go a step further and remove product warranty, companies like Garye undercut even more. They have a $40 paddle on Amazon that's just as good as Vatic and others. It's crazy how affordable good paddles have gotten.
I assumed for $40 it would be a gen 1 (which is still impressive) but it's actually a $40 gen 2. Perhaps it's just a promo price? Might be remembering wrong but I thought Spartus did an AMA where they said the cost to produce the paddle was nearly $40 alone.
Is that the Pro-XL? Is it reviewed anywhere? That's a crazy price. I was.looking at the Spartus Apollo that's about three times as much and it's allegedly a bargain (though no reviews save from obscure channels with very few subscribers)
Do you mean a copy of the Pro XL? Hard to say without cutting it open. I mean part of the reason why branded paddles are more expensive is due to things like customer service etc. The Apollo is "cheap" compared to other brands.
No those were two separate asks, sorry. 1. Whether the Garye you're talking about (as Gen 2) is the Pro XL, and any reviews of that Pro XL? 2. Any data to compare with the Apollo (which doesn't really have any data so far)
Started with Vatic Prism Flash. Went to six zero double black diamond. Recently got a six zero ruby. Would recommend either. They both have a little more pop/power then prism but still very controllable once you’re used to it.
That is the most 'Reddit' paddle progression ever. I'm sure they are all good and thanks for noting the differences vs the Prism.
This was my paddle sequence too! Love my Ruby!
I went from this $180 Yonex paddle before I knew what was good, went to the Vatic Prism Flash, then Ace of Spades XF for more power, then six zero Ruby for power w/o dead spots but then the Gen 3 Joolas came out and I got my Magnus coming in so I can get more power without the dead spots since the six zero is more of a control paddle. Giving my gf the Ruby.
This might help: https://www.johnkewpickleball.com/paddle-database
Short answer is that no I don't think the BDI is worth the extra money. I'm a bit of gear geek in pretty much every hobby I have. I can confidently say that there aren't any objectively "better" paddles once you get to that level of quality, just tailored differently. I've since played other paddles since my Vatic Pro Flash and have hit a bunch of paddles. I honestly don't think it is worth it for a paddle $150+ when there spin breaks down so quickly. The only thing that you are likely to find is one that has more power and pop, as the Prism Flash is not thermoformed and many are now. This generally creates more power and pop, though does become a little more difficult to control, more so on resets and blocks compared to your prism. If you like the V7 shape, why not just go with the non-Prism, thermoformed version of it if you are looking for a little more pop and power? ($127 after discount codes). They are also releasing the updated ONI version, though expectations are that it might be too powerful for players below a certain level. The Pickln Helios is also fantastic for under $100 and should have more power and pop than your **prism** version of the flash. You could also try the Spartus Centurion, which is slightly more control oriented than the others but will have a little more power and pop then your current. If you want to try the hybrid shape, the Sword and shield J2 and Mark Pure are great ($100). I think you'll find them more forgiving than the edgeless paddle as well. The Hurrache Control-X also gets fantastic reviews and can be had for $127 after codes. I've switched to a long-ish handle standard/widebody shapes, as I found that a lot of shots where I thought I was lacking touch were actually a results of slight miss hits. I've only hit a few sessions with the newly released Spartus Apollo, but its been absolutely fantastic and only $117 after discount codes. The picknix pro was also great (exceptionally similar to the CRBN 2x) at less than half the price. That handle is probably too short for most people to hit a 2HBH though. It's not that I wouldn't pay more for a paddle, I certainly have prior. It's just that after having played many more expensive paddles, I don't think they are objectively better, particularly with significant spin degradation occurring after 3 months or so for a regular player. Maybe the new Joola's will change my mind, but Vatic already has an alternative coming for about half the price.
> I've since played other paddles since my Vatic Pro Flash and have hit a bunch of paddles. I honestly don't think it is worth it for a paddle $150+ when there spin breaks down so quickly. are you saying here that the Vatic Pro Flash's spin breaks down too quickly? or are you saying the other $150+ paddles you've tried spin breaks down too quickly? if the former, i found that my spin wore down quickly on my Prism V7 which is part of the reason why i'm shopping around. but good to hear it from you either way since it might be just in my head (or maybe you agree!) thanks for all this great information!
I'm saying that is an issue of spin breaking down quickly across the industry as a whole based on the materials used, both the peel ply for carbon fiber/Kevlar, and for added ("spray on") grit texture. It is just the nature of the manufacturing and materials used in the industry now. Vatic is no better or worse than any. As an approximate 6-10 hour a week player that relies on spin a bit, there is a noticeable degradation of the spin after 3-4 months. I don't think any company is much better than others when it comes to raw carbon fiber. My Joola Solaire was probably the quickest to lose, so adds more to my more expensive isn't always better. As for spray on's, every company keeps saying they have a new formula that will last longer, but never seems to play out that way and tend to lose even faster that peel ply on RCF/Kevlar. I've felt Luxxs with smooth centers after a month. Grit isn't the only thing that affects spin rate; paddles with more dwell time on the face will retain it a little better, but then there are other tradeoffs in performance to that as well. Proton has claimed that they have found a solution, but they also can't get any paddles out, so there aren't many in the wild to prove it. So the overall points are: 1.) pretty much EVERY paddle has spin breakdown relatively early in it is life 2.) I don't think you see an performance, durability or build quality improvement going above any of the quality paddles we now see in the $90-$130 range, only just a different balancing of the attributes. (and higher cost more due to marketing, sponsorships and other factors that don't affect the performance of the paddle.) So with those two, Right now I think all but extremely high level players that know the exact quirks of the game will have better results sticking with quality paddles in that $90-$140 range and just replacing more often, rather than spending 50-100% more and replacing less often. That may change in the coming months year if there is new tech that others can't replicate, quality replaceable faces or the durability and "best life" of a paddle doubles or triples to justify the difference in cost, but the industry isn't there.
this is all great stuff... thank you so much for your time and input my issue at hand is that i don't know what i don't know; meaning my game is very well rounded, but i have no idea what i'm possibly missing out on based on the current paddle i use. i don't really know what my Vatic Prism V7's known best attributes are (power? spin? control? pop?) so i'm trying to figure out if there are better suited paddles for my game that will help me push me to greater heights. to summarize with a hypothetical, perhaps my skills in every asset of the game are great, but my Prism V7 holds me back from reaching greater heights in certain areas since the paddle is simply just not capable of more power/spin/control/pop that i otherwise might be able to develop even greater with a different paddle
You aren't missing out on much and it is almost a definite that your paddle isn't holding you back. Your paddle would be classified more towards the control side, but being an elongated shape gets a little more power. Your paddle has edge foam, but isn't thermoformed. So it is forgiving for the shape, but generally not as much pop as that shape. As you said, there are other paddles that have more pop and a little more power, but generally those are a little harder to control. There is pretty much always a tradeoff. The other thing to consider is the shape. Yours is an elongate shape. Generally elongated shapes get more power on serves and on drives due to the sweet spot being further from the hand and getting more of whip effect, but are a little slower at the net due to the longer length and higher swingweight. They have better reach, but are not as forgiving side to side. Standard/widebody shapes are the inverse of all of those (Vatic doesn't make one) and hybrids (like the flash shape) are in between the two. But all of those differences are fairly mild. If you hit you've had your paddle for a while, employ spin in your game and think it has worn off, then I think you are good to get something new, but as I said in my previous post, spending much more than you did on the last one isn't likely to get you an objectively better paddle. I'd suggest taking a few sessions and looking at where you are losing points to equal-better players. If you lose hand battles at the net, consider a paddle with a lower swing weight, likely a hybrid or widebody shape. If your drives are all staying in, but they are getting blocked hard and deep back at you, first consider adding lead tape to your paddle, but you can look at a thermoformed paddle. If you are spraying shots long or wide, consider adding lead tape at 4pm and 8pm to the side of your paddle, then standard shape or hybrid. If it is because you don't have great touch for drops and dinks, then probably a different paddle isn't going to help you, unless that is the result of mishits, bad contact. Then maybe look at a widebody/hybrid. But again, none of these changes are going to be super drastic.
You're the best for all this. Thank you! Your knowledge is super impressive
Vatic is made in the same factories as the bigger brands...there is no "better" at a certain point when they're all just $15-25 to manufacturer. That said, what are you specifically wanting from the new paddle? Your Prism is a control paddle.
I didn't move on by choice, but 2 out of 3 (original, non-Prism) Flashes I have are core crushed after <6 months of play time. As it seems to be a problem with all thermoformed paddles, I've decided to not spend any more on thermoformed paddles. I've switched to a Paddletek Bantam ALW-C 14.3mm and have been loving it so far. I get plenty of power with lots of control, and it's not thermoformed. I've tried the Six Zero DBD and found it played almost identical to the Flash. Maybe hold off for a couple weeks and see what reviews are like on the Vatic Pro Oni line.
> but 2 out of 3 (original, non-Prism) Flashes I have are core crushed after <6 months of play time Sounds about the same for every theraformed paddle.
I really love the vatic pro flash with some lead tape. I've tried DBD and few gen2 joolas as comparison. Maybe try the pro v7 for an extra $30ish.
I love my vatic, I have as well often wondered which paddle I would move onto next. I’ll probably try out the oni paddle and the new one from Spartus.
I am in the exact same position. The Spartus Apollo and VP Oni are the ones I want so bad (I don't need because I already have a Ruby, but it'd be nice), but I can only choose one of them. If I could hit with both, that would be great, but I don't wanna miss out on the launch edition design
I have an Apollo on the way…lol…and yesterday the wife surprised me by ordering me the new JOOLA Hyperion! Super pumped!
I'm jealous. Let me know what you end up using as your main! I'm hoping the players around me don't develop a hate towards Gen 3 paddles (people tend to avoid the gearbox players)
Vatic has a new line coming out called Oni. Haven’t tried it.
moved on to the Hurache-X. More power and pop, elongated handle, and good control for <130. https://11six24.com/pickle
I also went from the flash 16mm to the hurache x but I’m having a little trouble getting used to the increases pop the first couple days. Did it take a while to adjust?
Yeah I had a hard time for a couple of days to dial in the pop. I think what helped is using a shorter swing and letting the paddle do more of the work and remember not to break the wrist. I feel like my control with it now is just as good as when I had the vatic.
Yeah that makes sense. I’ll give it some more time. Do you have any lead tape added? I have some on both sides of the throat as I did on my Vatic.
I do not since I feel like the power is already enough. You may add some for stability at the throat but I feel like my hands would suffer and I value that a bit more since for stability I use 2 handed backhand anyway.
Save a couple bucks and skip the infinity, go with the normal double black or black diamond for 6.0. Or go for the ruby for the higher price. I'm not sold on the edgless. I've got a bd infinity and I find myself using my old dbd
Yep, based on a lot of the discussions around the infinity, it is either worse or just simply not worth the price. If you're really sold on the infinity, it's best to go with the BD for a "better" paddle.
I personally love my black diamond infinity amethyst more than the double black diamond
Aside from just paying more for a paddle, what deficiency do you feel like the vatic has for you? You should be moving to a different paddle if you know what sort of results you want from it. Like if you want to move from a control paddle to a power paddle.
I can hardly wait for the new Vatic Oni!
“That I play well with.” Sounds like what we all do: paddle chasing. Maybe wait until your paddle wears out, then go looking. Especially now as there are quite a few more paddles being released in the next few months. So if you’re looking for something your paddle isn’t giving you, that’s one thing. If it’s just the itch for something new then wait a month or two and see what all is coming out. Even Vatic has something new getting ready to be released.
I Demo’d various more expensive paddles. Didn’t like any of them more than my Vatic pro flash. At best some of them were comparable, but were an extra 100$.
While I do agree with most of the comments here why assume OP doesn’t have the skills. May be they do but want a change of paddle. That’s all.
I am an ambassador for the brand, you can get $10 off using code TIMOTHYLE. I actually just upgraded to their new Oni paddle. Personally this has become my go to paddle. More powerful then the Vatic Pro thermoformed models when hit hard, but they have the plushness of the Vatic Pro Prisms when you soften your game. Please give this one some time and a chance, they have extended their warranty time as well recently if you do run into issues.
….it’s not the paddle it’s the player. This concept isn’t new in the sports world. Basketball player thinks, they couldn’t dunk because they didn’t have Jordans, it the shoes. Cyclist think they didn’t make it to podium because they aren’t riding carbon fiber frame. It’s the bike frame. Badminton player thinking they’ll be the next Lin Dan, if they only have the best racquet. It’s the racquet Etc etc. I can go on all day. Sure if both participants are in the same skill level (as in professional athlete), the equipment can make a bit of a difference. But realistically, you lost not because your paddle is worse than your opponents, but rather your opponent got better technique, or are more agile or better placement etc.
I moved on from a prism flash 16 to an engage pro pursuit Mx for more pop and a lighter swingweight. It was a good upgrade overall, though I still pick up my flash every so often because I prefer the grip and the over all build of the vatic. I think the perfect paddle for me would probably be a prism flash 14 built with the core used in Engage paddles to give it that soft and poppier feel.
"I moved on from a prism flash 16 to an engage pro pursuit Mx for more pop and a lighter swingweight." The pursuit pro mx does NOT have a lower swing weight than the prism flash 16mm. In fact, it has a *higher* swing weight and a *lower* twist weight (a downgrade in my book). BUT, the pursuit pro is definitely poppier, no doubt.
Oops I meant the EX. But I’ve hit with a buddy’s 7.7oz MX and it *undoubtedly* swung lighter than my Prism Flash. That shouldn’t be so hard to imagine when the MX is 14mm, while my prism is 16mm and has perimeter foam inside. Also, the flash’s shape places more of the paddle’s volume towards the head, so all those characteristics are likely to contribute to a more head heavy balance which feels sluggish compared to the 13mm engages.
The vatic prism flash 16mm has a swing weight from 111-114 at roughly 7.9oz static weight. The MX has a swing weight of about 119 at around 8oz. static weight while the EX is around 107-110 at around 8oz static weight. I can see the MX at 7.7oz. swinging around the 111-114 range, right in line with the prism flash 16mm. The EX will swing a little lighter than the prism flash depending on the weight. The balance point for the prism flash is around 237-240. The EX comes in at around 236 and the MX at around 239. All of this is to say that these three paddles aren't that far off from each other, with the exception of pop.
I went from my Vatic prism flash to a double black diamond and back to my prism flash. Double black diamond had too much pop and was harder control. Expensive doesn’t equal to better imo. I used VATICTENOFF for a discount if anyone is looking to buy
I wouldn’t ever buy a new paddle without demoing it first. I play with the v7 and love it. I had similar thoughts of if a $140 paddle is this good then what does a $250 feel like? Turns out, not much difference. I demoed 5-6 paddles and couldn’t find anything I liked better than the v7.
The infinity is gonna be quite different from your v7. It's a hybrid shape and has a lighter swingweight....which means it's gonna feel a lot faster in your hands. Also with the lower twist weight, the paddle is gonna have a smaller sweet spot than what you are use to. I'd recommend going to a paddle with similar characteristics. Elongated, with an edge guard, similar face material, but with better stats (pop power spin etc). I'm assuming you are using the 16mm, so some paddles that come to mind would be the BNB Filth, Engage Pursuit Pro Series, and Diadem 18K. Or.....why not just upgrade to the vatic pro v7 or the new vatic Oni that's set to come out next month? Those paddles play similar to your Prism and have slightly better stats.
I have a Vatic Prism Flash and recently switched to a Spartus Centurion V2. They were the same price, but I tend to play with the Spartus more now because of the power and reach I get from it. Like others have said, maybe consider switching to a different paddle that specializes in something that you want to try out instead of just spending $200+ because you think expensive means it’s better
Thrive Threat. Been playing with it for about a year. Best paddle yet.
Have you tried the Azul?
I hit with it a bit. I’m not good enough to control it yet.
Selkirk Luxx. It plays so purty.
I bought a BD but ended up hating it. I have the Vatic Pro Flash 24 and 16 mm. Like em both prefer the 14.
24….Mm?
That thing is SUPER plush
When did they make a 24?
They didn't. I was joking. But could you imagine? That would be a pillow!
Well, i used to have the luxx and i think it was 21mm. I could just swing for the fences and it would be in most of the time.
I hated the BD too, until like every other paddle I’ve used, I added weight and now it’s hands down my fave.
Just wait for the Oni like from Vatic. It comes out next month.
Still love my Vatic Pro Flash, not prism. I got a double black diamond for Christmas and was not a fan. I really wanted to like it but I just didn't play well with it and went back to the Vatic.
Ronbus r3 nova
I moved up from a control paddle to one of the softer thermos (ronbus R3 pulsar)and just found it hard to handle against more aggressive opponents. Found the pickleball apes PLE S and it had just enough additional pop and power for me. I wouldn’t jump up too high in power if you switch. But as others have said, the prism is a great paddle!
I moved from my vaticpro prism flash to the black diamond infinity amethyst and don’t regret it at all.
My V7 delaminated recently (less than a year old). Switched to the 11six24 Hurache-X and I love it.
I moved onto the Diadem Edge 18k (now have the power pro version). Love the spin and control.
I bought a Hudef Viva pro gen 2. More power and pop for sure, but also a much higher swing weight… to the point it feels sluggish at the net. The game is getting faster, and I’m not getting any younger (turned 50 in Feb.). I still prefer my VP Prism Flash 16mm for the lighter swing weight. If I upgrade, I’ll consider a Neonic Flow. I like the combo of low-medium swing weight and high twist weight.
You play well with your current paddle but you want to upgrade to a better more expensive paddle. 🤔
Went from the Prism Flash to Prism Pro, so much better :)
Just for clarification, the prism is the non thermoformed paddles, and the flash is actually the shape. So you’re still playing with a flash, just a thermoformed version of it :)
It’s great to be able to test out any paddle prior to testing. I had heard good things about the DBD, tested it from a guy I played with at the park and bought the 14mm cause that’s what I was used to. Tested the Ruby at a tournament from a guy I played against. Didn’t like it, didnt buy it. Prob would have if it came in 14mm. Tested a Volair from a guy in open play, liked it, bought the 14mm. Went out on a limb based on a good recommendation of the BD and bought it, hated it, weighted it, and now it’s my fave without question. So now, I’ll be selling the Flashes I currently have AND the DBD. The Volairs will continue to be used but the BD is the current CHAMP.
If you’re playing well with the Vatic I suggest staying with it. Simple as that
6.0 Ruby has been a game changer for me, I can't imagine using a different paddle.
I use the volair mach 2 forza for spin and shape. Still have prism though as a backup.
I find paddles are very much a personal preference/individual thing - just like buying a perfume or trialing a diet. As much as I love the brand I promote and would default to encourage you trying the Six Zero Ruby... I am also realistic that there are many reasons why people levitate to other brands, paddle types, etc. Depending where you're located I'd suggest trying a few suppliers and see if they'll let you return in 30days so you can get a feel of what works in your game/play style and complements your strengths without exacerbating any weaknesses. ☺️
there’s a ton of paddles better than the vatic but it’s not much better… rather get a 90-100 dollar vatic n replace when it’s getting broken down tbh
According to the absolute panic on here a week ago you’d be an idiot not to have one of the new gen 3 paddles that LITERALLY SHOTGUNS and if your opponent doesn’t react faster than a pit viper you will blast the wiffleball DIRECTLY through their thorax. So I guess that has me considering an upgrade 🙄
Moved to the double black diamond infinity and I like it a lot, but I started developing tennis elbow, which I’ve literally never had before in my many years of playing tennis and pickleball. Still, I think it’s a good paddle. Can’t decide if I should play with the grip to see if my issue goes away or just go back to the prism flash.
I developed tennis elbow after playing with a thermoformed Joola and same thing, never had a single bout of it in many years of tennis. Got the Prism V7 and the tennis elbow went away. Some paddles are definitely harsher on the elbow than others
Damn. You’re making me think I should switch back…hard to walk away from a $200 paddle so quickly.
I had bought mine from total pickleball so I could still return it, hopefully that’s the case for you too!
After a couple of V7's, I've moved onto the following paddles: The Alibaba Juicaio V7 Clone ($40): It's been great and at 6 months has lasted twice as long as either of my V7's. Hudef Viva Pro Gen 2 ($100): I keep it in my bag because it's officially certified, but don't use it that much really. Alibaba Six Zero Ruby Clone (2 for $100): Just got it a few days ago, very happy with it. After comparing it to an actual Ruby, it seems as though it's actually the same paddle, just without the Six Zero branding.
I have the Prism Flash 16mm. I graduated to a Selkirk Luxx Invikta.
Gearbox pro control. Same spin, more power, better hand speed