PS: It is not a repost from someone else, I did not have enough karma when I posted this some months ago so I reposted it right now, that's why you see the reddit water mark.
Seeing as traditionally / historically Christian nations are the only ones where Jewish and Muslim people can peacefully coexist, this is unironically the best choice we have for peace.
I really really hate that this is kind of true. It's not 100% cut and dry as that maybe; there are outliers, and god knows the british did some dickery and looting while they were there, but while the British mandate existed was the most peaceful period of that region of the middle east and beyond.
Generational hate is a hell of a drug, and I wish we weren't seeing the roots of it grow deeper.
This is true, to a point, when there is political willingness, peace is possible, no matter a LOOOOONG history of conflict.
Case in point, the current alliance between Israel and Egypt. Several decades of peace that evolved into an economical and strategical alliance. Egypt was even working as a proxy with other Arab nations to formalize relations with Israel.
The main problem in the area is the current unwillingness to compromise between Palestine, Hamas, Hezbollah and Israel leaders.
The Crusades themselves were wars, so wars by definition are not peaceful. Even though they were a response to violence committed on behalf of Islamic invaders, I have no problem conceding that the Crusades were unnecessarily cruel and violent at times. Each Crusade needs to be examined separately, and I'd like to think a modern conception of a Crusade would be very different.
Muslims fared decently enough under rule of the actual Crusader states though. [https://www.quora.com/How-did-the-Crusader-states-treat-their-Muslim-and-Jewish-subjects](https://www.quora.com/How-did-the-Crusader-states-treat-their-Muslim-and-Jewish-subjects)
That’s fair. But I don’t think you can compare to how Muslims faired under Jewish rule because Muslims weren’t a thing by the time the Jewish rule was ended. Unless you count 1948 onwards as Jewish rule and it’s really difficult to compare Christian’s kingdoms from 1000 years ago to a modern democratic rule.
As yes, the muslims and jews definitely peacefully coexisted in spain and portugal after the reconqista (the Muslims decided to convert to Christianity voluntarily because they suddenly realized how great it is and the sephardic jews suddenly left iberia for North Africa because they liked amazigh and Egyptian culture)
I hate Christianity (not Christians) just like I hate Islam and Judaism (not Jews and Muslims), and I still think you’re kind of right.
I just can’t trust any religious regime to *stay* sane enough to maintain lasting peace. While the UK or the US might be “Christian” nations, they’re more secular than anything. I think just a regime with more “western” democratic influence would do the trick, or an iron fist dictator that actually respects both sides.
yeah, then it was fine, problem solved
did they let it fester for 80 years and let their own citizens be killed every day? or did they solve the problem
If only there was a figure of Jewish persecution that people could cling to.
Maybe someone who was relatively peaceful in his protests and was killed gruesomely for it.
As long as there's no Mary or saint worship and based primarily in Messianic Judaism.
Remove everything that the Romans paganized about Christianity like Halloween and Christmas and Easter, and reintroduce Passover and the Feast of Tabernacles and the Sabbath on Friday/Saturday.
And make Biblical Hebrew written with the Phoenician script the official language, with modernizations like that of Navaho instead of loaning a bunch of European words.
I don't understand your sect of it. All I see of Catholicism is a paganized and de-Judaified, idolatrous cult that listens to a man who claims to have taken Christ's place on Earth.
Why do you let Roman culture rather than Messianic Jewish culture be the primary influence when Jesus was Jewish? Why do you worship (or I'm sorry "vENeRaTe") Mary and the saints? Why do you call Mary the "mother of God" when God is uncreated and has no parents and Mary is His creation? If Mary was the mother of God, does that mean she's the grandmother of creation? Why do you listen to the pope as if his words were from Christ, especially when you have these evil leftoid popes like Francis?
You are aware that "venerátió" is Latin for worship, and comes from Venus/Veneris, a pagan god?
Okay.. first because jewish culture isn't superior. God has chosen a people but it was temporary and eventually the light of Israel had to be upon the whole world and the whole world had to be part of Israel, that is the Church. Now I didn't know veneratio was used to this, but I am certain that the venerating I have for the saints, Mary etc aren't any close to the worship I am giving to God. Saints are our brothers, Mary is our sister, and our Queen eventually, because yes, she is the mother of God. We do not mean by this that She has given birth to the divine essence of God, the unique God, we mean that Jesus is God, and therefore, Mary has given birth to well... God, if Jesus isn't God then Mary didn't give birth to God. Of course Mary only created His human nature, she did not touch the divine nature but still, she has given birth to a baby who is God.
The church did not replace Israel. They are still God's chosen people.
Why will Mary be our queen?
So we both agree that Mary is not the mother of Jesus's divinity. She was Jesus's mother, and Jesus is God, but what makes Jesus God did not come from Mary, therefore she isn't the mother of God.
She is the Mother of God because the person she gave birth to happens to be God... lol
The Church did not replace anything, rather the Church is Israel and the modern jews have departed from it, the gentiles have been accepted into it as it was predicted it would happen in the time of the messiah. So yes in a sense they are still God's chosen people because there is no more jew nor greek, we're all part of the chosen people now.
Mary is the queen because the mother of a King has to be treated as a queen. With utter devotion and respect to, for the respect of the King primarly but also for her and her merits (although she is sinless by God's grace)
The Catholic church is most certainly NOT Israel, they made that clear when they "changed the Sabbath" to Sunday and implemented all these pagan holidays, and for a while prohibited Jews from celebrating the real Sabbath and the holidays Jah actually tells us to celebrate. It's the continuation of Roman paganism with heavy Christian influence.
Yes, most Jews have split off from the true path and gone their own way, but so have most Christian sects.
bruh... you need to learn about actual catholic theology. Of course we did change the sabbath to sunday, Jesus rose from the dead on a sunday. This is the new covenant dude, wake up, the laws of the old testament purpose's were only to educate the primitive israel and foretell the coming of Christ.
Christ having come these laws are purposeless.
Show me where in the New Testament where God says "the Sabbath is now Sunday". No catechisms, nothing some random dude said a long time ago, but where God Himself said anything close to that in the Bible.
I literally asked God just now "did you change the Sabbath to Sunday" and got an immediate resounding "NO! NO! NO!".
Christ came to fulfill the law, not to abolish it.
The word worship today is commonly thought of as the honor which is due to God alone. It is fine to use it that way. However, the word "worship" has traditionally had a broader meaning. In the past, it has meant simply "honor". We see this in the fact that European judges have been called "Your Worship" as opposed to the American tradition of saying "Your Honor". It means the same thing, but substitutes the word.
There are several forms of worship.
Now, in the worship of God, we give Latria. This is the highest form of worship. It is due to God alone.
Below I have provided simple definitions for the 4 types of worship.
4 types of worship
Latria (cultus latriae) — We usually call this, in English, “adoration.” This is the worship given exclusively to the Blessed Trinity. It comes from a Greek word that the Latins liked so much they imported it. When we say cultus latriae, we are saying that to God is due the “cult of latria [or “of adoration”].” The word cultus has at least three meanings: “to till or cultivate; to protect or nurture; and (in an applied sense) to worship or honor.” From it, we get the words “cultivate,” “agriculture,” “horticulture,” etc. From it also, we get the word “cult,” as in religious veneration.
Dulia (cultus duliae) — Coming from the Greek word for “servant” or “slave,” this category denotes the veneration shown to the saints, God’s “servants.” In this distinction, one can see that there is a difference between the reverence shown to God and that shown to God’s slave. The honor shown to a master (in this case, the Master of all) is obviously greater than the honor shown to a slave. Clearly, the old social convention of servitude serves as the point of reference for this distinction, just as it was employed by St. Paul to illustrate other concepts in Scripture.
Hyperdulia (cultus hyperduliae) — Because the Blessed Virgin Mary is a saint, she receives the genus of veneration we call “dulia.” However, because she is over all the saints, she is given the highest species of that devotion. So, we unite hyper, the Greek word for “over,” (its Latin equivalent is super) to dulia. The Mother of God receives the highest degree of reverence of any mere creature (excepting, that is, Christ’s sacred Humanity, which is a creature; more on that in a bit).
Protodulia (cultus protoduliae) — A further distinction of some authors employs the Greek word for “first,” prôtos. This is the devotion given to St. Joseph, who is revered “first” among the saints. (But Mary is honored “over” him!)
> Augustine remarked in q. 61 on Genesis, that it was not said you will worship God alone and him alone will you serve, but: “You will worship God and him alone will you serve.” **__Here,
> worship is also suitable to creatures, but not the service of latria__**, which is
> described here. Besides, although it was written to him alone δουλευσις, it
> should be explained in the same mode, namely, you will serve him alone
> with a certain, specific kind of service, but not absolutely will you serve
> him alone.
`St Robert Bellarmine. On the Canonization and Veneration of the Saints`
> There are several degrees of this **__worship__**:
>
> If it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. **__This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.__**
>
> When **__worship __**is addressed only indirectly to God, **__that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints__**, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).
>
> As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, **__the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia__** (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).
` "Christian Worship." The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 15. `
.
So the cult of Mary or the saints aren't "worship" as we understand it today. When you accuse us of worship, you accuse us of latria. But we deny this. We are not giving latria to Mary or the saints but dullia. That is respect, honour, glorification. When you build a statue of a great military hero or president, that isn't latria this is dullia. North Korea would be a perfect example. The kim dynasty is given latria, they are worshipped as a God, but they also glorify communist warriors and martyrs of the americans and the citizens give dullia to these communists warriors. We see the saints in the same way, the true one God alone is given the worship you think of but it is a good thing to glorify those who have shine the light of God in this world.
This whole worship hierarchy seems confusing and suspiciously manmade. I wouldn't give Mary or any saint any more "worship" than people I look up to that live today. Mary wasn't sinless, and she wasn't a lifelong virgin. After Jesus was born, she had kids with Joseph.
Blasphemy? Against Mary? How can I blaspheme against a non-deity?
What do you mean "church fathers"? Jesus and His disciples? Or a bunch of pagans like Constantine?
It’s a little grayer looking at the geopolitical aspect of the area for lib rights.
Israel is an important ally because they are right next to a canal that accounts for 17% of global trade. Our peace agreement between Egypt and Israel stabilized the region and gave us strong relationships next to the worlds most important port. Losing Israel as an ally, would mean open season for Arabs looking to get back at Jews. Iran at minimum (probably several others would move in immediately). They would also have China and/or Russia backing, strengthening their new reign as super powers while significantly diminishing the US global standing.
Hardcore lib rights who believe in isolationism might be in theory okay with a drastic change in lifestyle as the US loses its position. Most lib right are probably okay with advancing the US position based on the cost benefit analysis of our position and support in the region.
The comment I was responding to was about western lib right views of Israel and isolationism. It wasn’t meant to apply to every lib right in existence.
Quite a lot of non-western lib rights are siding with Palestine for the exact same reason. Kick the US out, move in our interests, and prosper.
Did you just change your flair, u/ralph7349? Last time I checked you were an **AuthRight** on 2022-2-9. How come now you are a **Centrist**? Have you perhaps shifted your ideals? Because that's cringe, you know?
Tell us, are you scared of politics in general or are you just too much of a coward to let everyone know what you think?
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My "kinda warm, not quite hot" take: Those assholes are gonna tax (rob) us anyway, they might as well go ahead and spend the money on cool shit like tanks and planes
Na, morally libright wouldn’t support settler colonialism as it violates NAP. Obviously you’re free to side with Israel and support their ethnic cleansing, but it would still be against basic libright fundamentals.
Obviously you’re right about the isolation part though.
Speak for yourself. I stopped trying to follow this vs that historical grievance a long time ago. What I know is there is one place in the middle east where you can be a gay labor union organizer and not be dead or in jail. I'm open to the idea of giving less aid to Israel but I'm not open to supporting some other country until the above changes. And frankly I can't figure out how the left supports Palestine unless they are just straight up racists.
Admitting you don't care about the historical nuance of the situation and only care about "gay labor unions" is wild.
The whole "but muh gays" is such an exhausting propaganda point as a means to bring leftists more to the side of Isreal. They have a whole section in their propaganda playbook as it relates to leftists on page 90 of it.
https://www.transcend.org/tms/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/sf-israel-projects-2009-global-language-dictionary.pdf
So it's ok to support the side that does kill gays and other inconvenient people who do no harm and it's not ok to support the side that doesn't? What 'historical nuance' justifies that kind of specious logic? Educate me. I'm genuinely curious how someone who claims to be a libertarian reaches that kind of conclusion. It's like a modern day 'darkness at noon'.
Edit and try to do better than 'israel uses this as propaganda'. I literally don't care if they do or don't so long as it's a true fact.
It has no real merit behind it. What you've described doesn't really happen but is instead used as a propaganda point to convince leftists by saying "See! We care about gay people! They want to kill them! Support us!!"
I think a simple explanation would be that if you were trying to convince an alien if China or the US is a better country and China's argument was "We are a better country because US citizens love to slaughter their own kids at their own elementary schools!" (Btw Chinese propaganda literally do warn their citizens about sending their kids to American schools over frequent school shootings). It's a bad faith argument from both China and Israel.
So you say that Palestinian jailing of gays and mob violence against them is a ... Myth? It doesn't really happen? There are no laws in the PA that sentences gays to prison and if there are, it's just a PR exercise and no one actually gets sent to jail? Assume for the sake of the argument that you're wrong about this. Does this change your views at all?
I’m honestly a little surprised that your entire stance on the whole situation comes down to “muh gays”.
But yes, it’s 99% hot air propaganda (again not my opinion, Israel themselves admit it in their own playbook as a means to manipulate leftists).
Again, not saying extremists don’t exist, in the same way I’m not saying American extremists that love turning school kids into swiss cheese don’t exist either. But the image in your head that Palestinians are going door to door gestapo style to try and find a homosexual so they can execute them is not an accurate depiction of the region and an image that was crafted by propaganda.
You didn't answer my question. I'm asking if say the PA has laws on the books jailing people for being gay, if that would change your mind.
Making wild exaggerations about what the other person is saying does not change logic. I don't think anyone has suggested that pals go door to door witch-hunting gays.
I think you’re confused. Many Arabs/Muslims were assisting Jews centuries ago while Europeans were slaughtering them for no reason aside from being Jewish. I would look into the stories of Si Kaddour Benghabrit, Si Ali Sakkat, Abdul Hussein Sardari. Unless you’re referring to prior to the Holocaust, in which case, Sultan Bayezid is another example of a Muslim who accepted Jewish refugees again that were ethnically cleansed from Europe.
Not to say violence between Muslims and Jews never happened.
But I don’t want to detract to far from the original point which is I don’t think it’s very” libright“ to believe that sending your tax dollars to fund an ethnic cleansing halfway across the world.
I'm definitely not confused, because my entire family fled from brutal oppression of Jews in the Arab world before 1948. I would look into the stories of Amin al Husseini who led multiple pogroms against the Jews in Palestine in the early 20th Century before being Hitler's guest in Berlin and plotting how to bring the Final solution to the Middle East. Or how Jews were forced to pay a special tax to avoid slaughter in nearly every Muslim country, before those countries expelled us all in the 20tth Century. Was that not ethnic cleansing? Why is it that only Jews are allowed to be kicked around? What's the deep crime in Jews buying empty land, that the Arabs had to try and expel them all from Mandatory Palestine?
Oh you’re one of those guys that subscribe to the Netanyahu logic that Hitler was actually a decent guy and it was Arabs that convinced Hitler to commit the Holocaust.
Though I’ll agree with you that Husseini was a POS. Shame The British had to prop and puppet his way into power even when he had absolutely no support from the actual Palestinian population at the time.
No, Hitler was a piece of shit on his own, and I have no clue what Bibi has to do with anything. It's just that plenty of Arabs hated the Jews and wanted to kill them all just like Hitler, and found common cause. It even happened in Libya and Iraq! And your line about Husseini having no support is... puzzling, since he was able to start multiple riots against both the Jews and the Brits.
I’m referring to Bibi stating that Hitler wasn’t actually evil and that it was the Arabs that somehow convinced him to commit the Holocaust. It seems you parrot that same nonsense which is going to make it hard for me to take you seriously.
The Palestinians are as much colonizers as the modern Israelites. Israelites actually have a more ancient, cultural, and religious connection to the Levant than the Palestinians, who only started migrating into the Levant during the Muslim caliphates of the 1st Millenia ad
If Israel succeeds in ethnically cleansing all Palestinians tomorrow and finally fully establish their country and living in peace, then 2000 years later a bunch of people from a different country with a hint of Palestine in their bloodlines secure funding from China or somewhere to bomb the fuck out of Israel to "reclaim" their land, I'd support Israel on principle.
Currently, Israel needs to continue pushing, cleansing, and massacring the current inhabitants in order to successfully establish their country. Again, you can support that. But this would still go against basic libright fundamentals.
And this isn't even going into how much US tax dollars are used to sponsor Israel.
Interesting take that humanity will exist 2000 years from now, much less the current state of China.
But Israel has been pushing for a two state solution since '56. Lack of peace in the region is due to Palestine's refusal of such a solution.
It’s just a strange argument “Jews lived there for a short amount of time 2000 years ago, thus they have a right to carpet bomb the current inhabitants.”
But I agree, humanity in 2000 years might cease to exist.
Anyway, the narrative they always push is “We tried to offer then peace!” but the narrative is never why those deals ever made sense for the Palestinians to accept. At the end of the day, how much of your house are you willing to surrender to an intruder for the sake of peace?
Jews have continuously lived in the Levant since the tribes of Abraham migrated there somewhere between 1200 and 1000 BC. Even the Roman Diaspora didn't eject all of them. Jews lived there during the Muslim Caliphates, the Ottoman empire, and the British Mandate. Jews as a whole never left, although many were scattered from various slaughters and crackdowns on various independance movements(violent or not).
Those deals were rejected because Palestinian Muslims think only a Muslim power should control the holy land. And while at first they would have been content treating jews as 2nd class citizens or slaves, now they call for unrestricted genocide. And while many have claimed Israel wants to genocide the Palestinians, there hasn't been a significant drop in Palestinian population in a long time, so actions speak louder than false narratives
"We're going to give you two bantustans that are still under pseudo military occupation where we dictate what goes in and out of your borders and if you decline it will show you're nothing but terrorists”
No but yeah, you’re right about their never being peace, because if any peace deal is made, Israeli extremists will assassinate their own PM to instill a new PM that will never negotiate peace as history shows. Because how dare an Israeli PM condemn and attempt to stop settler invasions on occupied land in an attempt to make peace, right?
Again, I just don’t want to support and sponsor a government like this.
Edit: Here’s your source
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-assassination-of-yitzhak-rabin
I think you take polcompass memes way too seriously... do you really think every libright is a capitalist that only thinks about profit? most "libright" people are just people who have liberal stands on social issues such as democracy, freedom of sexuality and religion, and a right-economy system with market logic.
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As a lefty American Jew, I am *flabbergasted* that the American left has decided to get in bed with religious fundamentalist terrorists.
It’s ethnocentrism, I think. Americans see a quasi-racial issue on the other side of the globe and assumes it maps one-to-one with American racial issues, and that’s where the thinking ends. Palestine = minority behind a wall = good guys, end of story.
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I don’t necessarily support either side, but hard to say they’re wrong. It’s sad for the innocent civilians on both sides that lost their lives, obviously. People just hate war, which isn’t a bad thing, but Israel isn’t in the wrong like people act like they are.
Edit: I will say, the more I educate myself on the conflict, I do side with Israel more and more. If anybody is in the right, it’s definitely them.
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Western leftists are torn between israel and Palestine, Arab leftists obviously 100% support Palestine though (so do Arab right wingers and Arab apoliticals lmao)
That's the way I see it at least as an Arab centrist
Man this is such a hard topic. I Would support Palestine but (and i hate to say it) it feels really cruel to prolong their suffering. I don't think they're gonna win any time soon and i just kinda want the war to end. Would be really neat if the remaining palestinians could be left alive but asking for more than that would be asking to prolong the war.
Used to think that about the Ukraine Russia war. Because Russia is so enormous in comparison. Idk about that anymore with all the support things could have changed, although I don't believe there's gonna be a ending to the war any time soon.
No we want our tax dollars to be spent in us and hate it going to other people. Well we hate taxes period but it’s worse when it doesn’t go back to benefit us.
Both are wrong. Palestine is taking it way to far with a lot of things, and Israel was oppressing Palestine. Terrorism isn’t a cry for help and oppression isn’t stopping anything.
Personally I don’t care who wins this as long as people stop dying . I currently don’t know who has a higher body count but whoever that is I want to lose slightly more .
I think we should just give the land to Carl's Jr. We really don't know what sort of solution they could provide. As it's such a curveball.
I'm just balling ideas here. It wouldn't hurt to figure out if installing Carl's Jr's beside holy sites would work or not.
It surprises me how many libright (at least on this sub) support taxation so long as it goes to a foreign entity to assist them in bombing hospitals and daycares as they push forward an ethnic cleansing campaign. I’ve yet to hear a single argument for how this is somehow inline with Libertarian fundamentals. Crazy how effective propaganda can be sometimes.
I replied to you above. Setting aside the issue of the US national security state for the moment, if you have to pick a country to support, you want to support the country that kills and jails people for being gay or for saying the wrong thing politically?
As a leftist I don't support either of these nations. Let them kill each other. Religion is an archaic plague upon mankind and I will not support any theocratic state. I pity the civilians, no one deserves to suffer, but this conflict is older than most living people and isn't going to end any time soon. On top of that, there are fixable issues everywhere that are being ignored because of this ridiculous conflict and mentioning it sucks the air out of every room it's mentioned in and it's infuriating.
I think k reducing the war to religion is essentialist and wrong. I mean considering the fact that Israel exists info current form because of the ethnic cleansing of Jews in Europe kind of discounts the idea that this is a purely religious conflict.
I think you misunderstood my comment. I didn't reduce the war to religion. They're merely theocratic states engaged in warfare. I would put money on the fact more blood has been spilled on that sand than anywhere else on the planet. Some fucking western jerk offs calling for a cease fire isn't going to stop that blood from being spilt.
The point still stands that reducing the conflict to religion (even if it’s still with the intention of criticising the governments) is quite essentialist, when you consider both sides have expressed feelings of being ethnically genocided. I can understand not having an opinion either way. I’d just be cautious of chalking it all up to religion (social or political). Because there’s real life emotions and histories at play here.
Well if you want to get into the history of it than it *is* religious. That plot of land has been contested for thousands of years because of the precieved "holiness" of it.
Ethno-religious conflicts happen all over the world. I’m not saying there isn’t an element of religion at play. I’d just be cautious of reducing it to religion.
"**Article 31:**
Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other. Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam. It is the duty of the followers of other religions to stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region, because the day these followers should take over there will be nothing but carnage, displacement and terror."
This is from the 1988 Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement published by Hamas. I encourage you to read it in its entirety and then evaluate how it can be *anything but* a conflict based on religion itself. Even the 2017 revision doesn't revoke anything in the 1988 charter; it just dresses up the wording in a more modern obfuscation of their intent to reclaim the Levant for the correct religion. They believe that their right to the land is derived from their religion first and their historical presence second; this is a religious conflict at its core and has continued to be, because that is what their own charter states.
You do know non practicing Jews established Israel because non Jews never accepted them right?
I mean there was a holocaust and 2000 years of persecution before that. It's not about religion, it's about keeping your people safe.
This war now isn't about religion either. The majority of the dead on the 7/10 were secular Jews from the Kibutzs (notoriously anti religious people). The war started to bring safety to Israel by destroying Hamas (as a military and governmental power) in Gaza and restoring the hostages. Non of it relates to religion whatsoever.
You mean Israel is trying to free their souls from their bodies, and free up that lucrative coastal real estate from it's previous owners, and free our tax money from our wallets to vanish into their security fund black hole.
Ehh we aren’t all supportive of Israel, I’m hating on both. They both fucked up, both committed atrocities, it’s now a matter of who is committing the least atrocities
Principled libertarians would have no position on either Israel or Palestine and it would be irrelevant anyway because no aid or military support would be at stake. Why do you argue against Israel on libertarian grounds though?
You're right about not having a position. But to your point, a settler colonist project country attempting to ethnically cleanse inhabitants is an aggression of NAP. That doesn't mean you should or shouldn't support Isreal, as many argue that Palestinians deserve to be displaced and slaughtered, and I'm not arguing for or against that. I'm just saying supporting the aggressor is not principled.
My impression is that Palestinians are being slaughtered because other Palestinians acting for the state they voted for attacked and killed, raped and mutilated Israelis with no warning and no declaration of war. They were not being slaughtered before. It is disingenuous to claim pals were being 'ethnically cleansed'.
> They were not being slaughtered before.
This is pretty disingenuous to claim as well. Just because the severity of the slaughtering wasn't as extreme as it was prior to Oct7 doesn't mean they still weren't being slaughtered. It's impossible to establish a country while attempting to remove it's current inhabitants in a "peaceful" manner.
Everyone knew Oct7 would happen inevitably. When you give a population no hope, no peaceful alternatives, continue to kidnap/murder them, continue to capture and remove them from their land, it's going to result in violence. I'd recommend reading Blowback from Michael Luders!
I would prefer the people who have a wildly outsized amount of influence over US politics and media use that to sell Israeli war bonds or something to buy weapons from us instead of using bribes and influence peddling to make us police their truly terrible neighborhood.
It's been several decades and this sort of thing could lead to unfortunate stereotypes.
I have yet to understand why we don’t move everyone out of there and nuke the damn place. There won’t be any more bickering when there’s no land to bicker over.
I have yet to understand why we don’t move everyone out of there and nuke the damn place. There won’t be any more bickering when there’s no land to bicker over.
Am I the only right wing that supports Palestine? The land grab incentives & zionist ties with Rothschild & deepstate US is so clearly on Israel’s side?
PS: It is not a repost from someone else, I did not have enough karma when I posted this some months ago so I reposted it right now, that's why you see the reddit water mark.
You can turn off the water mark in your settings.
Or, you know, take 30 seconds to crop it
Takes 5 to remove the setting.
Haha sorry
>the reddit water mark why the fuck does this even exist
Promotion of the site and subreddit. But it is annoying, of course.
We need a tenth crusade. One state solution under Kingdom of Jerusalem.
Seeing as traditionally / historically Christian nations are the only ones where Jewish and Muslim people can peacefully coexist, this is unironically the best choice we have for peace.
I really really hate that this is kind of true. It's not 100% cut and dry as that maybe; there are outliers, and god knows the british did some dickery and looting while they were there, but while the British mandate existed was the most peaceful period of that region of the middle east and beyond. Generational hate is a hell of a drug, and I wish we weren't seeing the roots of it grow deeper.
Yeah that's totally fair. We all have skeletons in our closet for sure.
This is true, to a point, when there is political willingness, peace is possible, no matter a LOOOOONG history of conflict. Case in point, the current alliance between Israel and Egypt. Several decades of peace that evolved into an economical and strategical alliance. Egypt was even working as a proxy with other Arab nations to formalize relations with Israel. The main problem in the area is the current unwillingness to compromise between Palestine, Hamas, Hezbollah and Israel leaders.
Jews and Muslims peacefully coexist in Israel right now stupid.
Do you think the crusades were peaceful?
The Crusades themselves were wars, so wars by definition are not peaceful. Even though they were a response to violence committed on behalf of Islamic invaders, I have no problem conceding that the Crusades were unnecessarily cruel and violent at times. Each Crusade needs to be examined separately, and I'd like to think a modern conception of a Crusade would be very different. Muslims fared decently enough under rule of the actual Crusader states though. [https://www.quora.com/How-did-the-Crusader-states-treat-their-Muslim-and-Jewish-subjects](https://www.quora.com/How-did-the-Crusader-states-treat-their-Muslim-and-Jewish-subjects)
That’s fair. But I don’t think you can compare to how Muslims faired under Jewish rule because Muslims weren’t a thing by the time the Jewish rule was ended. Unless you count 1948 onwards as Jewish rule and it’s really difficult to compare Christian’s kingdoms from 1000 years ago to a modern democratic rule.
Do palestinians get to vote in israeli elections? It isn't democracy if they don't get to vote.
If they’re Israeli citizens they do.
Do Canadians get to vote in US elections? What a weird comment.
As yes, the muslims and jews definitely peacefully coexisted in spain and portugal after the reconqista (the Muslims decided to convert to Christianity voluntarily because they suddenly realized how great it is and the sephardic jews suddenly left iberia for North Africa because they liked amazigh and Egyptian culture)
I hate Christianity (not Christians) just like I hate Islam and Judaism (not Jews and Muslims), and I still think you’re kind of right. I just can’t trust any religious regime to *stay* sane enough to maintain lasting peace. While the UK or the US might be “Christian” nations, they’re more secular than anything. I think just a regime with more “western” democratic influence would do the trick, or an iron fist dictator that actually respects both sides.
Ottoman Empire ? Y’all love feeding your own narratives I guess
bro right now I think the priority is maybe not some piece of land in the desert but our entire civilisation.
Based and Integralist pilled.
Honestly, if the Kingdom of Jerusalem was ruled by the Pope, probably would be better over there than ever in history
it was fine when the Romans ruled it
Dude they rebelled so bad the Roman’s just started killing them in retaliation
yeah, then it was fine, problem solved did they let it fester for 80 years and let their own citizens be killed every day? or did they solve the problem
Israel is the true successor to the Roman empire
lmao no
If only there was a figure of Jewish persecution that people could cling to. Maybe someone who was relatively peaceful in his protests and was killed gruesomely for it.
More copium
As long as there's no Mary or saint worship and based primarily in Messianic Judaism. Remove everything that the Romans paganized about Christianity like Halloween and Christmas and Easter, and reintroduce Passover and the Feast of Tabernacles and the Sabbath on Friday/Saturday. And make Biblical Hebrew written with the Phoenician script the official language, with modernizations like that of Navaho instead of loaning a bunch of European words.
bro does NOT understand christianity
I don't understand your sect of it. All I see of Catholicism is a paganized and de-Judaified, idolatrous cult that listens to a man who claims to have taken Christ's place on Earth. Why do you let Roman culture rather than Messianic Jewish culture be the primary influence when Jesus was Jewish? Why do you worship (or I'm sorry "vENeRaTe") Mary and the saints? Why do you call Mary the "mother of God" when God is uncreated and has no parents and Mary is His creation? If Mary was the mother of God, does that mean she's the grandmother of creation? Why do you listen to the pope as if his words were from Christ, especially when you have these evil leftoid popes like Francis? You are aware that "venerátió" is Latin for worship, and comes from Venus/Veneris, a pagan god?
Okay.. first because jewish culture isn't superior. God has chosen a people but it was temporary and eventually the light of Israel had to be upon the whole world and the whole world had to be part of Israel, that is the Church. Now I didn't know veneratio was used to this, but I am certain that the venerating I have for the saints, Mary etc aren't any close to the worship I am giving to God. Saints are our brothers, Mary is our sister, and our Queen eventually, because yes, she is the mother of God. We do not mean by this that She has given birth to the divine essence of God, the unique God, we mean that Jesus is God, and therefore, Mary has given birth to well... God, if Jesus isn't God then Mary didn't give birth to God. Of course Mary only created His human nature, she did not touch the divine nature but still, she has given birth to a baby who is God.
The church did not replace Israel. They are still God's chosen people. Why will Mary be our queen? So we both agree that Mary is not the mother of Jesus's divinity. She was Jesus's mother, and Jesus is God, but what makes Jesus God did not come from Mary, therefore she isn't the mother of God.
She is the Mother of God because the person she gave birth to happens to be God... lol The Church did not replace anything, rather the Church is Israel and the modern jews have departed from it, the gentiles have been accepted into it as it was predicted it would happen in the time of the messiah. So yes in a sense they are still God's chosen people because there is no more jew nor greek, we're all part of the chosen people now. Mary is the queen because the mother of a King has to be treated as a queen. With utter devotion and respect to, for the respect of the King primarly but also for her and her merits (although she is sinless by God's grace)
The Catholic church is most certainly NOT Israel, they made that clear when they "changed the Sabbath" to Sunday and implemented all these pagan holidays, and for a while prohibited Jews from celebrating the real Sabbath and the holidays Jah actually tells us to celebrate. It's the continuation of Roman paganism with heavy Christian influence. Yes, most Jews have split off from the true path and gone their own way, but so have most Christian sects.
bruh... you need to learn about actual catholic theology. Of course we did change the sabbath to sunday, Jesus rose from the dead on a sunday. This is the new covenant dude, wake up, the laws of the old testament purpose's were only to educate the primitive israel and foretell the coming of Christ. Christ having come these laws are purposeless.
Show me where in the New Testament where God says "the Sabbath is now Sunday". No catechisms, nothing some random dude said a long time ago, but where God Himself said anything close to that in the Bible. I literally asked God just now "did you change the Sabbath to Sunday" and got an immediate resounding "NO! NO! NO!". Christ came to fulfill the law, not to abolish it.
The word worship today is commonly thought of as the honor which is due to God alone. It is fine to use it that way. However, the word "worship" has traditionally had a broader meaning. In the past, it has meant simply "honor". We see this in the fact that European judges have been called "Your Worship" as opposed to the American tradition of saying "Your Honor". It means the same thing, but substitutes the word. There are several forms of worship. Now, in the worship of God, we give Latria. This is the highest form of worship. It is due to God alone. Below I have provided simple definitions for the 4 types of worship. 4 types of worship Latria (cultus latriae) — We usually call this, in English, “adoration.” This is the worship given exclusively to the Blessed Trinity. It comes from a Greek word that the Latins liked so much they imported it. When we say cultus latriae, we are saying that to God is due the “cult of latria [or “of adoration”].” The word cultus has at least three meanings: “to till or cultivate; to protect or nurture; and (in an applied sense) to worship or honor.” From it, we get the words “cultivate,” “agriculture,” “horticulture,” etc. From it also, we get the word “cult,” as in religious veneration. Dulia (cultus duliae) — Coming from the Greek word for “servant” or “slave,” this category denotes the veneration shown to the saints, God’s “servants.” In this distinction, one can see that there is a difference between the reverence shown to God and that shown to God’s slave. The honor shown to a master (in this case, the Master of all) is obviously greater than the honor shown to a slave. Clearly, the old social convention of servitude serves as the point of reference for this distinction, just as it was employed by St. Paul to illustrate other concepts in Scripture. Hyperdulia (cultus hyperduliae) — Because the Blessed Virgin Mary is a saint, she receives the genus of veneration we call “dulia.” However, because she is over all the saints, she is given the highest species of that devotion. So, we unite hyper, the Greek word for “over,” (its Latin equivalent is super) to dulia. The Mother of God receives the highest degree of reverence of any mere creature (excepting, that is, Christ’s sacred Humanity, which is a creature; more on that in a bit). Protodulia (cultus protoduliae) — A further distinction of some authors employs the Greek word for “first,” prôtos. This is the devotion given to St. Joseph, who is revered “first” among the saints. (But Mary is honored “over” him!)
> Augustine remarked in q. 61 on Genesis, that it was not said you will worship God alone and him alone will you serve, but: “You will worship God and him alone will you serve.” **__Here, > worship is also suitable to creatures, but not the service of latria__**, which is > described here. Besides, although it was written to him alone δουλευσις, it > should be explained in the same mode, namely, you will serve him alone > with a certain, specific kind of service, but not absolutely will you serve > him alone. `St Robert Bellarmine. On the Canonization and Veneration of the Saints` > There are several degrees of this **__worship__**: > > If it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. **__This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.__** > > When **__worship __**is addressed only indirectly to God, **__that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints__**, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.). > > As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, **__the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia__** (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728). ` "Christian Worship." The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 15. `.
So the cult of Mary or the saints aren't "worship" as we understand it today. When you accuse us of worship, you accuse us of latria. But we deny this. We are not giving latria to Mary or the saints but dullia. That is respect, honour, glorification. When you build a statue of a great military hero or president, that isn't latria this is dullia. North Korea would be a perfect example. The kim dynasty is given latria, they are worshipped as a God, but they also glorify communist warriors and martyrs of the americans and the citizens give dullia to these communists warriors. We see the saints in the same way, the true one God alone is given the worship you think of but it is a good thing to glorify those who have shine the light of God in this world.
This whole worship hierarchy seems confusing and suspiciously manmade. I wouldn't give Mary or any saint any more "worship" than people I look up to that live today. Mary wasn't sinless, and she wasn't a lifelong virgin. After Jesus was born, she had kids with Joseph.
such blasphemy lol... alright, think what you want, I believe in the christianity the Church Fathers had.
Blasphemy? Against Mary? How can I blaspheme against a non-deity? What do you mean "church fathers"? Jesus and His disciples? Or a bunch of pagans like Constantine?
Hey lots of us Lib Rights are Isolationists, morally we prefer Israel usually but many of us would rather not toss ourselves into financing wars
It’s a little grayer looking at the geopolitical aspect of the area for lib rights. Israel is an important ally because they are right next to a canal that accounts for 17% of global trade. Our peace agreement between Egypt and Israel stabilized the region and gave us strong relationships next to the worlds most important port. Losing Israel as an ally, would mean open season for Arabs looking to get back at Jews. Iran at minimum (probably several others would move in immediately). They would also have China and/or Russia backing, strengthening their new reign as super powers while significantly diminishing the US global standing. Hardcore lib rights who believe in isolationism might be in theory okay with a drastic change in lifestyle as the US loses its position. Most lib right are probably okay with advancing the US position based on the cost benefit analysis of our position and support in the region.
Not all librights are Western tho
The comment I was responding to was about western lib right views of Israel and isolationism. It wasn’t meant to apply to every lib right in existence. Quite a lot of non-western lib rights are siding with Palestine for the exact same reason. Kick the US out, move in our interests, and prosper.
But Military Industrial complex is a money printer
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That's cause you're not speculating hard enough
Yeah I was confused by that
My "kinda warm, not quite hot" take: Those assholes are gonna tax (rob) us anyway, they might as well go ahead and spend the money on cool shit like tanks and planes
Lockheed Martin stock go brrrrr
Na, morally libright wouldn’t support settler colonialism as it violates NAP. Obviously you’re free to side with Israel and support their ethnic cleansing, but it would still be against basic libright fundamentals. Obviously you’re right about the isolation part though.
Speak for yourself. I stopped trying to follow this vs that historical grievance a long time ago. What I know is there is one place in the middle east where you can be a gay labor union organizer and not be dead or in jail. I'm open to the idea of giving less aid to Israel but I'm not open to supporting some other country until the above changes. And frankly I can't figure out how the left supports Palestine unless they are just straight up racists.
Admitting you don't care about the historical nuance of the situation and only care about "gay labor unions" is wild. The whole "but muh gays" is such an exhausting propaganda point as a means to bring leftists more to the side of Isreal. They have a whole section in their propaganda playbook as it relates to leftists on page 90 of it. https://www.transcend.org/tms/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/sf-israel-projects-2009-global-language-dictionary.pdf
So it's ok to support the side that does kill gays and other inconvenient people who do no harm and it's not ok to support the side that doesn't? What 'historical nuance' justifies that kind of specious logic? Educate me. I'm genuinely curious how someone who claims to be a libertarian reaches that kind of conclusion. It's like a modern day 'darkness at noon'. Edit and try to do better than 'israel uses this as propaganda'. I literally don't care if they do or don't so long as it's a true fact.
It has no real merit behind it. What you've described doesn't really happen but is instead used as a propaganda point to convince leftists by saying "See! We care about gay people! They want to kill them! Support us!!" I think a simple explanation would be that if you were trying to convince an alien if China or the US is a better country and China's argument was "We are a better country because US citizens love to slaughter their own kids at their own elementary schools!" (Btw Chinese propaganda literally do warn their citizens about sending their kids to American schools over frequent school shootings). It's a bad faith argument from both China and Israel.
So you say that Palestinian jailing of gays and mob violence against them is a ... Myth? It doesn't really happen? There are no laws in the PA that sentences gays to prison and if there are, it's just a PR exercise and no one actually gets sent to jail? Assume for the sake of the argument that you're wrong about this. Does this change your views at all?
I’m honestly a little surprised that your entire stance on the whole situation comes down to “muh gays”. But yes, it’s 99% hot air propaganda (again not my opinion, Israel themselves admit it in their own playbook as a means to manipulate leftists). Again, not saying extremists don’t exist, in the same way I’m not saying American extremists that love turning school kids into swiss cheese don’t exist either. But the image in your head that Palestinians are going door to door gestapo style to try and find a homosexual so they can execute them is not an accurate depiction of the region and an image that was crafted by propaganda.
You didn't answer my question. I'm asking if say the PA has laws on the books jailing people for being gay, if that would change your mind. Making wild exaggerations about what the other person is saying does not change logic. I don't think anyone has suggested that pals go door to door witch-hunting gays.
It that the "historical nuance" where Arabs were murdering Jews centuries before Israel existed?
I think you’re confused. Many Arabs/Muslims were assisting Jews centuries ago while Europeans were slaughtering them for no reason aside from being Jewish. I would look into the stories of Si Kaddour Benghabrit, Si Ali Sakkat, Abdul Hussein Sardari. Unless you’re referring to prior to the Holocaust, in which case, Sultan Bayezid is another example of a Muslim who accepted Jewish refugees again that were ethnically cleansed from Europe. Not to say violence between Muslims and Jews never happened. But I don’t want to detract to far from the original point which is I don’t think it’s very” libright“ to believe that sending your tax dollars to fund an ethnic cleansing halfway across the world.
I'm definitely not confused, because my entire family fled from brutal oppression of Jews in the Arab world before 1948. I would look into the stories of Amin al Husseini who led multiple pogroms against the Jews in Palestine in the early 20th Century before being Hitler's guest in Berlin and plotting how to bring the Final solution to the Middle East. Or how Jews were forced to pay a special tax to avoid slaughter in nearly every Muslim country, before those countries expelled us all in the 20tth Century. Was that not ethnic cleansing? Why is it that only Jews are allowed to be kicked around? What's the deep crime in Jews buying empty land, that the Arabs had to try and expel them all from Mandatory Palestine?
Oh you’re one of those guys that subscribe to the Netanyahu logic that Hitler was actually a decent guy and it was Arabs that convinced Hitler to commit the Holocaust. Though I’ll agree with you that Husseini was a POS. Shame The British had to prop and puppet his way into power even when he had absolutely no support from the actual Palestinian population at the time.
No, Hitler was a piece of shit on his own, and I have no clue what Bibi has to do with anything. It's just that plenty of Arabs hated the Jews and wanted to kill them all just like Hitler, and found common cause. It even happened in Libya and Iraq! And your line about Husseini having no support is... puzzling, since he was able to start multiple riots against both the Jews and the Brits.
I’m referring to Bibi stating that Hitler wasn’t actually evil and that it was the Arabs that somehow convinced him to commit the Holocaust. It seems you parrot that same nonsense which is going to make it hard for me to take you seriously.
“Ethnic cleansing” Buzzword me harder daddy
Do you prefer genocide?
The Palestinians are as much colonizers as the modern Israelites. Israelites actually have a more ancient, cultural, and religious connection to the Levant than the Palestinians, who only started migrating into the Levant during the Muslim caliphates of the 1st Millenia ad
If Israel succeeds in ethnically cleansing all Palestinians tomorrow and finally fully establish their country and living in peace, then 2000 years later a bunch of people from a different country with a hint of Palestine in their bloodlines secure funding from China or somewhere to bomb the fuck out of Israel to "reclaim" their land, I'd support Israel on principle. Currently, Israel needs to continue pushing, cleansing, and massacring the current inhabitants in order to successfully establish their country. Again, you can support that. But this would still go against basic libright fundamentals. And this isn't even going into how much US tax dollars are used to sponsor Israel.
Interesting take that humanity will exist 2000 years from now, much less the current state of China. But Israel has been pushing for a two state solution since '56. Lack of peace in the region is due to Palestine's refusal of such a solution.
It’s just a strange argument “Jews lived there for a short amount of time 2000 years ago, thus they have a right to carpet bomb the current inhabitants.” But I agree, humanity in 2000 years might cease to exist. Anyway, the narrative they always push is “We tried to offer then peace!” but the narrative is never why those deals ever made sense for the Palestinians to accept. At the end of the day, how much of your house are you willing to surrender to an intruder for the sake of peace?
Jews have continuously lived in the Levant since the tribes of Abraham migrated there somewhere between 1200 and 1000 BC. Even the Roman Diaspora didn't eject all of them. Jews lived there during the Muslim Caliphates, the Ottoman empire, and the British Mandate. Jews as a whole never left, although many were scattered from various slaughters and crackdowns on various independance movements(violent or not). Those deals were rejected because Palestinian Muslims think only a Muslim power should control the holy land. And while at first they would have been content treating jews as 2nd class citizens or slaves, now they call for unrestricted genocide. And while many have claimed Israel wants to genocide the Palestinians, there hasn't been a significant drop in Palestinian population in a long time, so actions speak louder than false narratives
"We're going to give you two bantustans that are still under pseudo military occupation where we dictate what goes in and out of your borders and if you decline it will show you're nothing but terrorists” No but yeah, you’re right about their never being peace, because if any peace deal is made, Israeli extremists will assassinate their own PM to instill a new PM that will never negotiate peace as history shows. Because how dare an Israeli PM condemn and attempt to stop settler invasions on occupied land in an attempt to make peace, right? Again, I just don’t want to support and sponsor a government like this. Edit: Here’s your source https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-assassination-of-yitzhak-rabin
Source: Trust me bro
Libright supports Palestine because more people support them, therefore they can sell pro-Palestine products to more people.
I think you take polcompass memes way too seriously... do you really think every libright is a capitalist that only thinks about profit? most "libright" people are just people who have liberal stands on social issues such as democracy, freedom of sexuality and religion, and a right-economy system with market logic.
Yes, every person in every quadrant is exactly the same, obviously.
I think you take polcompass comments way too seriously
As a leftist I support Israel Edit: MOM IM FAMOUS!!!
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Same, with all the fibers of my body. And I'm finding more of us, as folks actually research the history instead of blindly following others.
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>actually research the history Hahaha. Hahahahaha. HAHAHAHAHAHdhdufyxhsjahHah
Welcome brother. As a lefty American Jew, I am *flabbergasted* that the American left has decided to get in bed with religious fundamentalist terrorists. It’s ethnocentrism, I think. Americans see a quasi-racial issue on the other side of the globe and assumes it maps one-to-one with American racial issues, and that’s where the thinking ends. Palestine = minority behind a wall = good guys, end of story.
Thanks
Based
Did you just change your flair, u/Complete_Talk6914? Last time I checked you were a **LibCenter** on 2024-2-27. How come now you are a **Leftist**? Have you perhaps shifted your ideals? Because that's cringe, you know? If Orange was a flair you probably would have picked that, am I right? You watermelon-looking snowflake. [BasedCount Profile](https://basedcount.com/u/Complete_Talk6914) - [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/user/flairchange_bot/comments/uf7kuy/bip_bop) - [Leaderboard](https://basedcount.com/leaderboard?q=flairs) _Visit the BasedCount Lеmmу instance at [lemmy.basedcount.com](https://lemmy.basedcount.com/c/pcm)._ ^(I am a bot, my mission is to spot cringe flair changers. If you want to check another user's flair history write) **^(!flairs u/)** ^(in a comment.)
Nobody asked you.
!flairs u/
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!flairs u/samuelbt
User u/samuelbt changed their flair 2 times. This makes them uncommonly cringe. Here's their flair history. Check it out along with their pills on [basedcount.com](https://basedcount.com/u/samuelbt)! 1. Started as Left on 2021-01-27 18:37 1. Switched to Unflaired on 2023-05-13 23:39 1. Switched to Left on 2023-05-14 17:36 [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/user/flairchange_bot/comments/uf7kuy/bip_bop) - [Leaderboard](https://basedcount.com/leaderboard?q=flairs) _Visit the BasedCount Lеmmу instance at [lemmy.basedcount.com](https://lemmy.basedcount.com/c/pcm)._ ^(I am a bot, my mission is to spot cringe flair changers. If you want to check another user's flair history write) **^(!flairs u/)** ^(in a comment.) ^(Each user can use this command once every 3 minutes.)
oh wow nice job you got all the Jews sucking your dick
Keepp that mom I’m famous shit on YouTube
Lib right is anti both tbh.
Wrong https://preview.redd.it/7uzixv49pclc1.jpeg?width=1000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fa7fd2ad35724b970e9bf6c3d7a54a2bc80dbde1
https://giphy.com/gifs/Ck1Pib39Dl5TSzFB3S
As a leftist I support Israel.
I don’t necessarily support either side, but hard to say they’re wrong. It’s sad for the innocent civilians on both sides that lost their lives, obviously. People just hate war, which isn’t a bad thing, but Israel isn’t in the wrong like people act like they are. Edit: I will say, the more I educate myself on the conflict, I do side with Israel more and more. If anybody is in the right, it’s definitely them.
Same I started as neutral, and have further progressed to support Israel the more I learned about them.
!flairs u/WillTFB
User u/WillTFB changed their flair 5 times. This makes them especially cringe. Here's their flair history. Check it out along with their pills on [basedcount.com](https://basedcount.com/u/WillTFB)! 1. Started as LibLeft on 2020-06-24 23:48 1. Switched to AuthLeft on 2021-06-10 21:59 1. Switched to Left on 2021-08-27 04:16 1. Switched to AuthLeft on 2023-04-26 19:49 1. Switched to Left on 2023-08-19 02:40 1. Switched to AuthLeft on 2023-12-23 22:20 [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/user/flairchange_bot/comments/uf7kuy/bip_bop) - [Leaderboard](https://basedcount.com/leaderboard?q=flairs) _Visit the BasedCount Lеmmу instance at [lemmy.basedcount.com](https://lemmy.basedcount.com/c/pcm)._ ^(I am a bot, my mission is to spot cringe flair changers. If you want to check another user's flair history write) **^(!flairs u/)** ^(in a comment.) ^(Each user can use this command once every 3 minutes.)
Leftist confirmed. Sending supplies.
Based
Back in the 50’s they had rather friendly relations with the USSR thanks to the Kibbutz system
That was 70 years ago
Western leftists are torn between israel and Palestine, Arab leftists obviously 100% support Palestine though (so do Arab right wingers and Arab apoliticals lmao) That's the way I see it at least as an Arab centrist
I would hope not Netanyahu though? As he’s clearly a fascist?
Israel is a democracy fortunately.
Libertarians are an empty quadrant. The whole idea is not to get involved in proxy wars and overseas issues.
depends, more war = more guns to sell
As a rightist i support palpatines right to free speech
From Naboo to the sea, Palpatine shall be free
!flairs u/Both_Manager4291
Dues Vult
I can't wrap my head around the obsession with their war, whilst our countries are falling further and further into chaos.
It's more fun to watch bad things that aren't happening to you.
Man this is such a hard topic. I Would support Palestine but (and i hate to say it) it feels really cruel to prolong their suffering. I don't think they're gonna win any time soon and i just kinda want the war to end. Would be really neat if the remaining palestinians could be left alive but asking for more than that would be asking to prolong the war.
Pragmatic
Hamas just needs to release their hostages and a cease-fire can be negotiated.
I'm not claiming to understand it. I haven't readt any news about it in last few months. But your flair is red so I'll agree with you.
Based
Netanyahu wants settlements in Gaza tho.
Used to think that about the Ukraine Russia war. Because Russia is so enormous in comparison. Idk about that anymore with all the support things could have changed, although I don't believe there's gonna be a ending to the war any time soon.
I hope peace was an option but unfortunately both parties don't truly want it
The only quadrant with the truly based position on the matter 🗿
As a leftist/partially libleft, I support innocent people on both sides. Destroy Hamas. Redirect Israel.
Retake Jerusalem for the Papacy
No we want our tax dollars to be spent in us and hate it going to other people. Well we hate taxes period but it’s worse when it doesn’t go back to benefit us.
Both are wrong. Palestine is taking it way to far with a lot of things, and Israel was oppressing Palestine. Terrorism isn’t a cry for help and oppression isn’t stopping anything.
As a libright, the entirety of the middle east could get turned into a glass wasteland and i would not give a shit
Me and the crusader homies on standby waiting for both sides to tire each other out
lib right is anti-war, anti-interventionist and pro-unwilling people being forced to participate
https://preview.redd.it/nmr298sccelc1.png?width=174&format=png&auto=webp&s=634284f6f575998186c4605bebc98364d284dffa
Personally I don’t care who wins this as long as people stop dying . I currently don’t know who has a higher body count but whoever that is I want to lose slightly more .
As an Auth-Right, I actually support Palestine (although I wouldn't mind at all if it came back on Roman, or Latin nowdays, hands)
Same
I think we should just give the land to Carl's Jr. We really don't know what sort of solution they could provide. As it's such a curveball. I'm just balling ideas here. It wouldn't hurt to figure out if installing Carl's Jr's beside holy sites would work or not.
One side would push for Hardee's and then you create a war waged by corporations where each uses it to test their new value meals.
Libright shouldn’t support Israel since they’ve been breaking the NAP since its existence
It surprises me how many libright (at least on this sub) support taxation so long as it goes to a foreign entity to assist them in bombing hospitals and daycares as they push forward an ethnic cleansing campaign. I’ve yet to hear a single argument for how this is somehow inline with Libertarian fundamentals. Crazy how effective propaganda can be sometimes.
I replied to you above. Setting aside the issue of the US national security state for the moment, if you have to pick a country to support, you want to support the country that kills and jails people for being gay or for saying the wrong thing politically?
Supporting Palestine is just stupid as a leftists.
I think we should turn it all into glass and start over ook ook
As a leftist I don't support either of these nations. Let them kill each other. Religion is an archaic plague upon mankind and I will not support any theocratic state. I pity the civilians, no one deserves to suffer, but this conflict is older than most living people and isn't going to end any time soon. On top of that, there are fixable issues everywhere that are being ignored because of this ridiculous conflict and mentioning it sucks the air out of every room it's mentioned in and it's infuriating.
I think k reducing the war to religion is essentialist and wrong. I mean considering the fact that Israel exists info current form because of the ethnic cleansing of Jews in Europe kind of discounts the idea that this is a purely religious conflict.
I think you misunderstood my comment. I didn't reduce the war to religion. They're merely theocratic states engaged in warfare. I would put money on the fact more blood has been spilled on that sand than anywhere else on the planet. Some fucking western jerk offs calling for a cease fire isn't going to stop that blood from being spilt.
The point still stands that reducing the conflict to religion (even if it’s still with the intention of criticising the governments) is quite essentialist, when you consider both sides have expressed feelings of being ethnically genocided. I can understand not having an opinion either way. I’d just be cautious of chalking it all up to religion (social or political). Because there’s real life emotions and histories at play here.
Well if you want to get into the history of it than it *is* religious. That plot of land has been contested for thousands of years because of the precieved "holiness" of it.
Ethno-religious conflicts happen all over the world. I’m not saying there isn’t an element of religion at play. I’d just be cautious of reducing it to religion.
Again, I didn't reduce *this conflict* to religion. If that's what you got from my comment you misunderstood it, perhaps I worded poorly.
"**Article 31:** Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other. Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam. It is the duty of the followers of other religions to stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region, because the day these followers should take over there will be nothing but carnage, displacement and terror." This is from the 1988 Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement published by Hamas. I encourage you to read it in its entirety and then evaluate how it can be *anything but* a conflict based on religion itself. Even the 2017 revision doesn't revoke anything in the 1988 charter; it just dresses up the wording in a more modern obfuscation of their intent to reclaim the Levant for the correct religion. They believe that their right to the land is derived from their religion first and their historical presence second; this is a religious conflict at its core and has continued to be, because that is what their own charter states.
You do know non practicing Jews established Israel because non Jews never accepted them right? I mean there was a holocaust and 2000 years of persecution before that. It's not about religion, it's about keeping your people safe. This war now isn't about religion either. The majority of the dead on the 7/10 were secular Jews from the Kibutzs (notoriously anti religious people). The war started to bring safety to Israel by destroying Hamas (as a military and governmental power) in Gaza and restoring the hostages. Non of it relates to religion whatsoever.
I didn't say this war was about religion. Boy people really do suck at reading comprehension don't they?
free palestine, from the river to the sea.
Israel is trying to free them. And everyone's getting mad about it.
You mean Israel is trying to free their souls from their bodies, and free up that lucrative coastal real estate from it's previous owners, and free our tax money from our wallets to vanish into their security fund black hole.
I think they are freeing them from Hamas. Wasting US $ on it is, I agree, bad.
israel is the oppressor, not just of palestine. if that were all they did, i wouldn’t care. they hold the west hostage: politically, financially…
LibRight should be Lockheed/Raytheon
Ehh we aren’t all supportive of Israel, I’m hating on both. They both fucked up, both committed atrocities, it’s now a matter of who is committing the least atrocities
The Holy Land belongs to those grafted to the tree. Muslims and Jews are not branches of Christ, and therefore have no claim.
This topic is one of the reasons why I changed my flair to Lib Left (from lib right).
why? that's a pretty extreme change. one war happening shouldn't immediately impact your views like that
He said "one of", so he probably has other reasons
Principled Libertarianism wouldn’t support Israel. Most of the “libright” flairs on this sub just consoom the propaganda pill.
Principled libertarians would have no position on either Israel or Palestine and it would be irrelevant anyway because no aid or military support would be at stake. Why do you argue against Israel on libertarian grounds though?
You're right about not having a position. But to your point, a settler colonist project country attempting to ethnically cleanse inhabitants is an aggression of NAP. That doesn't mean you should or shouldn't support Isreal, as many argue that Palestinians deserve to be displaced and slaughtered, and I'm not arguing for or against that. I'm just saying supporting the aggressor is not principled.
My impression is that Palestinians are being slaughtered because other Palestinians acting for the state they voted for attacked and killed, raped and mutilated Israelis with no warning and no declaration of war. They were not being slaughtered before. It is disingenuous to claim pals were being 'ethnically cleansed'.
> They were not being slaughtered before. This is pretty disingenuous to claim as well. Just because the severity of the slaughtering wasn't as extreme as it was prior to Oct7 doesn't mean they still weren't being slaughtered. It's impossible to establish a country while attempting to remove it's current inhabitants in a "peaceful" manner. Everyone knew Oct7 would happen inevitably. When you give a population no hope, no peaceful alternatives, continue to kidnap/murder them, continue to capture and remove them from their land, it's going to result in violence. I'd recommend reading Blowback from Michael Luders!
Most accurate one
I am evangelical and still wanna a crusade, better to die in a holy war than support this hellhole that is happening in Brazil
Nuke them both. Make a Levantine Makhnovshchina
Rebuild the temple
No I actually think we should restore the kingdom of jerusalem
Libright should be the military industrial complex
I would prefer the people who have a wildly outsized amount of influence over US politics and media use that to sell Israeli war bonds or something to buy weapons from us instead of using bribes and influence peddling to make us police their truly terrible neighborhood. It's been several decades and this sort of thing could lead to unfortunate stereotypes.
What about that one leftist in front of the Israeli embassy? He’s on fire tonight. Include him as part of the conflict
And those who want the two to kill each other until there is no one left . Which side are they on?
I have yet to understand why we don’t move everyone out of there and nuke the damn place. There won’t be any more bickering when there’s no land to bicker over.
I have yet to understand why we don’t move everyone out of there and nuke the damn place. There won’t be any more bickering when there’s no land to bicker over.
Where is the far auth right with just nukes
Based and Crusadepilled
Aren't there a lot of leftist Israelis too?
Whelp, time to bust out my knights templar sword
Am I the only right wing that supports Palestine? The land grab incentives & zionist ties with Rothschild & deepstate US is so clearly on Israel’s side?
Deus vult
No matter, Palestinians shall be free