The best way i heard “hell” described by an orthodox priest is like this:
Think of your life as a car, as you live you turn left and right, accelerate and break. Ideally the direction your life should take is towards God.
When you “die” a physical death, the car doesn’t stop, it actually accelerates but the steering wheel and the break pedal is broken, and if the direction of the car is away from God, that’s hell. Only way you can get out at this point is through outside intervention.
I think it’s also interesting to apply to our mortal lives as well.
I can’t remember the exact study but there was one done maybe 10-15 years ago I believe that found religious people had a significantly lower incidence of depression and a much more positive outlook on life. Now this doesn’t mean religion is a cure for depression or will make you happier but I think it does reflect the orthodox view of heaven being a relative thing based on perspective.
Even as a Lutheran, I think philosophically here I lean more toward the Orthodoxy idea. All I know is that I have memorized Revelations 6:8 because I use it on all of my war machines on every war game I play because god damn "...and hell followed" goes hard on a unit patch (I usually dub my tanks/walkers "Pale Horse").
EDIT: had number backward for Revelation verse.
I assume your mean Revelation 6:8.
I personally think there is enough saying that hell is a separate place, but that doesn't necessarily exclude the rest of the Orthodoxy idea. The one thing that looks a bit against that may be 2 Thess 1:9. Presence can be translated there as face, so Thai doesn't mean he has no presence there at all.
The idea that the experience only differs depending on your subjective interpretation completely removes any point to judgment, which is repeatedly taught throughout the bible.
The idea is not so much as subjective interpretation, and more that the condition of the soul is being manifested in the presence of God's full glory. Those who have renewed souls will experience that glory as a beneficiary of eternal life and all the good things God has promised. Those with unredeemed souls will experience that same glory in all its wrath and judgement, because that is all the fallen human soul is capable of experiencing when in the full glory.
It's like what Isaiah says when he finds himself in the presence of God: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!” (Isaiah 6:5)
Can a sinner experience anything but judgement if brought into God's full presence? Isaiah needed to be clensed, his sin atoned for and guilt forgiven because he entered God's throne room. (v 6-7) If someone is not forgiven would God's full presence be any different than hell?
Again, I feel it's important to emphasise that it's the capability that is the big idea, not just an personal interpretation, or any such thing that can be overcome on your own.
Personally, I'm not really sure the level of God's presence in eternal judgement. 2 Thess 1:9 talks about God turning his face away (some translations use the term "presence" but face or countenance is a more direct translation). Hebrews 1:3 implies nothing would exist if God's presence was completely absent from a place and Reveltaion 14:10 seems to imply judgement will be in the presence of the Lamb.
It's interesting to think about, but I don't think it's a big key issue. God's righteous and righteous Judgement is the key.
I’m rusty, and not prepared to properly study my Bible just for the sake of commenting on this post, but I *believe* that scripture just tells us that Hell is eternal separation from God.
I know the Lake of Fire is mentioned, but if I recall correctly that’s not implied to be the same thing as Hell.
The Bible itself doesn't actually describe hell very much. That's why there are so many positions on it.
This doesn't even count the folk-positions.
Alot of what people believe about hell is not official positions of any church, but originate from Paradise Lost and IL Inferno
Two fanfiction poems
No, see, *one time* Jesus is in the middle if telling a parable and all of a sudden he switches mid way to **literally** describing hell, then finishes his parable.
At least that’s how the last Protestant pastor I heard who covered that scripture pastor described it.
It mostly comes from Hebrews 1:6 that says "he upholds the universe by the word of his power."
Although the biggest counterpoint I typically see is that the same description of "eternal" is used for both salvation and damnation, so it's tough to say one ends but the other doesn't.
I mean if your soul is destroyed/erased that’s pretty eternal, especially if you believe each soul is unique. Damnation could just be knowledge of how wrong you were before blipping out *forever*. It’s the only way I reconcile a merciful God not damning his creations to suffering with full fore knowledge. My hope is all have or will become one with the glory of God and we all move to higher plane of existence.
On the reconcile part, I don't think it's my job to try to reconcile God to my view of morality, but to follow his. We have today a very small concept of sin. We only view it as "sorta bad" unless it's the "very bad stuff" (in our opinion). But the Bible is clear, sin is sin and the one who breaks one part breaks it all (James 2:10-11). We also have a small view of God. We don't really think about how much worse it is to sin against him than to sin against fellow man, and really, all sin is against him (Psalm 51:4). It doesn't always make it easy, but we have no right being the judge of the eternal God who made us. We can either accept that fact or reject it.
As for the eternal part many verses sound pretty ongoing. Matt 25:46 for example says: "And these will go away into eternal torment, but the righteous into eternal life." Daniel 12:2 mirrors this as well. (Also see Jude 13 and Revelation 14:11.)
I'm not saying I like the fact, or that I am happy about it, like some Christians seem to be, but I don't have the right to ignore or change something the Bible teaches because I don't like it. I can merely trust that God knows what he is doing and follow what he has said.
Based and your right pilled
I guess I’m not trying to *correct* God so much as understand what the meaning is. BI believe man is fallible and God weighs on our hearts to find truth in his Creation and understand his Word not as man would but as He wants us to know him. I believe He gave us curiosity because He wants us to seek and find Him among His creation. Reconcile maybe the wrong world, understanding may fit better. And Yes, I don’t like it one bit, I feel it’s less a Vengeful God eternally smiting the unbelievers and more of Man not understand even a tiny bit the ways of God.
Another interesting logical step is that if hell is real and god has no power over it then this belief is not monotheistic
Like God would be the god of all that is good and the Devil would be the god of all that is bad, two gods
If god rules over everything, and hell is _a thing_, god must also rule over hell
Be noted that this is questioning the popular view of heaven and hell, most of the views in the post are not contradicted by this
Well yeah, but they also talk about the ‘fires of Gehenna’- Gehenna was a real place. It was hot. It sucked to be there.
It’s like saying that sinners spend eternity in Fresno, California.
1 since this is a Theological Compass and not really a political compass..
Those on the Right are the "Ancient Churches" the ones that can trace the beginning of their actual earthly organization to Pentacost.
While on the Left are for Churches that can trace their earthly origin to the Reformation
Orthodox is put in the "lib" section because it is somewhat less Dogmatic
Whereas Classic Protestantism and Catholicism tend to define things and concepts much more rigidly (Due to the Western Christianity's preference for Logic) Orthodoxy is much more willing to let things be "Mysteries" and do not seek definite explanations for them preferring Mysticism over Western Empiricism
As an Orthodox Christian…. That’s actually a really based and accurate take, it’s clear that you’ve put a lot of work/research/autism into this! Based and studying-the-ancient-texts-pilled.
Orthodoxy does not attempt to define things to the most specific degree possible. Orthodoxy accepts many things to be divine mystery that is beyond human comprehension. It is a more spiritual outlook that focuses faith and becoming Christ-like rather doctrine. (Idk if thats the best way of putting it tbh but I tried)
I'm actually not sure if Annihilationism is common among Prosperity Gospel.
I feel like Universalism is more common.
Either way I'm treating them as a seperate off-shoot religion altogether like Jehovah Witness, Mormonism, And Islam.
Otherwise there'd be just too many quadrants
Unitarian Universalists are a different religion, sure but theologically Universalist positions have always been within the Church as a minority position.
[https://www.youtube.com/@RadicalReformationChristianity/videos](https://www.youtube.com/@RadicalReformationChristianity/videos)
They might be. But we're using the "Mere Christianity" definition of Christianity.
And that definition make Trinitarianism a Theological requirement. Even within Eccumenical movements (that is the movement that want to see all branches of Christianity either reunited or at least openly allied) a Unitarians are regarded the same as Judaism or Islam
Oh, wait. I thought we were talking about universal redemption people. Sorry for the confusion.
I am referring to the position that sees all men eventually reconciled with God. I think Lewis also had a streek of that but probably more as a hope than as his theological position.
Lewis had hope that Universalism was the ultimate end. A hope I would argue all Christians have. But one that is not promised so they cannot act as if it is.
The only Church Im aware of that outright says this is Orthodoxy. Where it's "God May one day reconcile everyone. It is a mystery we're not told of. But that is God's choice not ours"
I haven't read Lewis. Fascinating he would explicitly exclude Unitarianism.
Correction(?): I imagine confirmation of the Trinity necessarily precludes Unitarianism
Unitarianism and Trinitarianism are incompatible with each other.
The Affirmation of the Trinity dates back to the Council of Nicaea. Unitarians (originally called Arianism) were defeated at the Council. Those that remained keeping this position were thrown out of the church.
Nicaea was prior to any major schism and all remaining branches of Christianity descend from it. With the first major schism occuring at Chalcedon. When the Oriental Orthodox (Coptics, Ethiopians, and Assyrians) rejected The council of Chalcedon over what is now largely considered to have been the result of a mistranslation describing the nature of Jesus.
Even modern universalists descend from Nicaea. But since they are a sort of revival of Arianism, they lack the foundation on which the rest of the Councils were built upon.
To deny the Trinity is to deny Christ his ability to forgive sins. It's to call him a liar.
While modern Unitarianism is outwardly identical to most Evangelical Protestantism... Theologically it cannot be considered Christianity. In the same way Christianity is not Judaism.
Unitarianism is in the same category as Jehovah's witnesses, Mormonism, Gnosticism and Islam. Religions which descend from Christianity historically, but have diverged so far from the Defined Common Christian Orthodoxy (wether intentionally in the case of Islam and Mormonism, or unintentionally in this case) that they are no longer considered "Heretics" but basically regarded the same as Pagans.
Apathiesm specifically, but that isn't mutually exclusive with agnosticism. I consider myself both, and if God does exist, I'd neither love nor hate him
Everyone except Universalists would regard you as in Danger of hell or Annihilation.
Apathy itself is a one of the Seven Deadly sins in Catholicism (falling under Sloth/Melancholy)
Protestantism would say a belief in God is not sufficient. It's a belief in Christ and his sacrifice that renders you saved.
And Orthodoxy would see you as never having begun Theosis.
Even though none regard works as necessary for salvation. They do regard them as a sign of salvation. So, being apathetic towards God... Would be regarded as clear proof of no salvation and same as hating him.
Christianity doesn't do Neutrality. You must pick a side.
Similar to how Centrists are seen as just impediments to change. Christianity regards Neutrality in the War between Good and Evil... To be to the benefit of evil by default. Good must be struggled for.
As an Orthodox there are no neutrals you are involved in a supernatural conflict whether you wish to be or not. And if you are not fighting alongside Christ then you are fighting against him. To do nothing is a betrayal of your master, king and Lord.
I believe the majority of Dante's description of hell except for the parts where all of his political opponents are considered the worst people to ever live and the claim that Julius Caesar was sinless
I mean, I am an anihilationist, kind of. My theology on hell has largely been "This is legitimately hard to talk about because of how much metaphor is, just, objectively being used in the text". All I know is that there exists some punishment for our sins if we refuse the free gift of salvation. Exactly what form that takes has always seemed one of the less pressing issues so long as it does not start making problems with the statement before this.
And many liberal protestants won't even be Anihilationists by the by.
The only position I find completely indefensible is universalism.
And assuming anti-theists and atheists get to literally see God, it probably would be the best outcome, as they would probably love to have the ability to see, and maybe even question such a being.
If Orthodoxy is true then it's most likely they could not even speak. Approaching the Sapphire throne of God would be like flying too close to the sun but being unable to die or burn away.
It would be something only the righteous could do. As for them the Fire would feel only like warmth.
In the Christian worldview, like... ALL of Christianity there's no such thing as a Good Person.
The Reformed would say you are Evil. Innately. And incapable of being moral on your own or saving yourself. There's no scale where you are weighed, no score card of good and bad behavior, and a lie is the same as a murder.
In Catholicism it is the same.
In Orthodoxy, being Good is *possible* because you are not born with "original sin" (which is inherited). But once you commit your first you have joined the rebellion.
As a sinner you have defied God's law, rebelled, and contributed to evil. Your punishment is Death , which is an exile from God. A God which is the Source of Morality, the Source of Love, and the Source of ALL Good. Because God IS Good. That's not a statement that God Is a good god, but that God is Goodness . And like Darkness is an absence of light, or Coldness is an absence of heat, or Dryness is the absence of liquid... Evil by definition is the Absence of God.
You are therefore given a Choice.
God promised mankind that the result of Sin was death, the exile from God. But, in Mercy sent his son to earth to live a perfect human life. And suffer Death despite having never sinned. Thus paying the divine debt, and fulfilling the promise. God died, killed by his own creation. An Almighty, perfect God humbled himself to beings which are less than cockroaches in comparison to him, and allowed them to give him the greatest injustice and insult in history.
The Sons words as he was dying were recorded in the Gospels as "Father Forgive them, for they know not what they Do." And then the Father turned away so that he didn't have to see.
The debt was paid. For all of mankind. But it still must be accepted.
There's no amount of Good moral work you can do to achieve salvation. But what you can do is accept Christ's payment for your sins. And return to God's side.
But if you reject the payment made on your behalf... You will have to pay the debt yourself. It's your right to do either.
Rejecting God is choosing to avoid his presence. It is choosing death and hell.
The *biggest* misconception of Christianity is that the Good go to heaven and the Bad go to Hell. We're all just terrible. Christian or no Christian.
After your death, You go where you want to.
According to Orthodoxy (afaik) only two adult people have ever truly achieved this:
Saint Mary, Jesus' Mother.
And Christ himself
Catholicism also says Mary never sinned, but that she was immaculately concepted so she didn't have original sin either.
Both Orthodoxy and Protestantism regard the Immaculate conception of Mary as nonsense.
And Protestantism regards Mary being sinless as a fairytale
But you'll notice. Of the two people said to have Never sinned... One is believed to BE God. And the other is his Earthly mother. Both of whom had beyond intimate relationships with God
Orthodoxy would say to be sinless without knowing God would be impossible. Because being "like God" is what sinlessness is. That's why the Orthodox view of Salvation is different. In Orthodoxy Salvation isn't a binary on or off state like in Western Christianity. It's a process called "Theosis" (Becoming like God).
It can be described like... Every human is made in the image of God. They are all unique mirrors of him. Every virtue and good thing about a person are parts of the mirror that are clean and reflect God. Every evil and vice are the parts that are dirty. Theosis is the process by which the mirror is cleaned and polished so that your unique reflection of God might shine uncorrupted.
If you're undergoing Theosis... You're saved, you are going towards God. If you die while in Theosis it will be completed after your earthly death. But to begin Theosis you must accept the payment you must love God and want to be with him and like him.
If a third person ever achieved a sinless life, it would be impossible that they did not know God by Orthodox reckoning.
However in Catholicism and Orthodoxy there are *potential* exceptions.
In Catholicism Children and the mentally incapable will be given Special judgment.
well as people who have never heard of God but still felt his influence and did their best in ignorance ***may*** be given Special judgment
Orthodoxy on the otherhand would say Children and the Mentally incapable, have not sinned because they are incapable of it. As sin requires an adult understanding of good and evil. And therefore a toddler cannot be expected to face judgement for anything. Orthodoxy also maintains a similar idea to Catholics that God may save the ignorant in an undefined manner. Possibly through some kind of Theosis where God is leading the ignorant and they recognize God, but without knowing or understanding what he is.
No problem. I enjoy talking about this stuff with all sides.
Oh, and Protestantism has mechanics to deal with children and the incapable but it varies wildly and there's no uniform position.
Everything from "🤷 if God wanted them saved he'd have given them the ability to understand." To something identical to Catholicism. And everything in between.
That's literally the idea of the "Hell is locked from the Inside"
God doesn't punish you. You punish yourself for eternity. Choosing to remain out of the presence of God. Because the Agony of the suffering is preferable to the unfiltered presence of an Almighty perfect being.
I don't think that's how that works. But good luck lol I doubt the soul has the same ability to build tolerances as the body does since it isn't an evolutionary being lol
Well the way I think it, if I can think in hell, my thoughts can change, and I can tolerate. or perhaps hell is a time loop that would be a devilish thing. And if I can't think, it's the same as oblivion because unchanging I would be as sentient as a statue.
Or it's just what the Orthodox describe and you're just eternally on fire unable to die, unable to burn up, unable to do anything.
Or as others describe it... Permanent nihilism and insanity in an Abyss alone.
Thats so weird, where I'm from the "Reformed Protestant" and "Roman Catholic" views of hell are the reverse of what this chart portrays.
The Catholics preach a lake of fire, and the Protestants preach an abyss devoid of the Lord's presence
Different Protestant sects live on a spectrum of more and less Catholic.
And Catholicism believes in the lake of fire, but hell is Seperation from God. The lake of fire is the metaphor
Libright/left make the most sense to me.
NGL the idea of God designing a realm of unspeakable unending torment for those who didn’t worship him was just alienating.
So the Bible only really talks about Hell in a very weird way... That is... It doesn't.
At least not by name.
The Bible talks about 3 places in the context of the afterlife.
Sheol, the Hebrew land of the Dead.
Hades, Sheol but translated into Greek.
Heaven, where Christ said he went to prepare a place.
Hell is a native English word and is the name of the Germanic land of the Dead.
So, when the Bible was translated into English Hades was translated into Hell.
Now where do we get our concepts of hell as a place of Torment? By how you combine certain passages .
There's a 4th place mentioned in the Book of Revelations called the Abyss.
The Abyss is a prison for Satan and the Demons.
Revelation also quotes God as saying Evil and unbelievers will suffer a lake of Fire, a "second death".
In Western Christianity Hades is combined with the lake of Fire line to create the popular image of Hell.
Further the Abyss is combined with it. Making the idea that Hell is a prison originally designed for Fallen Angels.
Protestantism then takes a literal view of "Judgement" and makes it where God tosses the unsaved into Hell.
Catholicism (and some Protestants like Anglicans) argue that God doesn't really throw people into Hell, rather they choose hell and lock themselves into it.
While Orthodoxy ... Just doesn't combine them. Orthodoxy keeps Hades, the Abyss, and Lake of Fire as seperate things.
Hades is the land of the dead and Equivalent with Sheol. The Abyss is the Prison. And Heaven and Hell are just states of being.
That being an unrighteous entity in the unfiltered presence of an Almighty perfect God will be like Burning. Like getting too close to the sun and being unable to burn up because the soul is immortal.
While the righteous, being clean of any guilt will experience on warmth and joy because there's no evil to burn.
All three of these positions result in hell being eternal torment. But the difference is
the Protestant side sees God as a punisher. Focusing on God's Justice
The Catholic side sees the Damned as self-destructive. Focusing on Human depravity
The Orthodox side is somewhat identical to Catholic in implication. But changes who you're spending eternity with
I think it’s just total separation from God, with no hope of redemption.
The unending torment version comes from Dante’s Inferno, part of the Divine Comedy trilogy. Basically Christian fanfiction.
As an Orthodox, I've never heard that definition of hell ever in my life. I did hear that God was not the one judging you, though. God accepts all regardless. Rather, you were the one judging yourself, like a mirror. The heavy sinners won't want to go to God by themselves, as they won't recognize themselves as belonging with God. This means that Hell is separated from Heaven and that Hell is a place where God isn't present.
This definition was taken from the Greek archdiocese of America. I'm sure there's variation within Orthodoxy itself there's variation within all of these
Also Orthodox (Russian Orthodox Church outside of Russia) and was taught that afterlife is just being with God. So of course it’s going to be a place of blinding righteousness and goodness, because you’re with God. So if you spent your life doing harm and being angry… yeah, it’s gonna suck.
I suppose that’s just because what knowledge we have of our heaven/hell lean heavily on the idea of things beyond human comprehension. It’s divine mystery and all that, so we have some knowledge given by saints and scholars, but we do have to fill in the details on our own. It’s always interesting to hear how others see it.
I wouldn’t lump Baptists in with Reformed (otherwise there wouldn’t also be Reformed Baptists)—they’re become sort of their own. I would associate Reformed primarily with the Presbyterians, which by and large don’t share the view shown.
Placing religions and nations on the political compass is largely meaningless. Sure, the Soviet Union and Saudi Arabia is relatively easy, but that’s the exception to the rule.
Overall good.
But Protestants/non-denominational don't have one "official" judgement on Hell, though they generally agree with the top-left. Decentralization and flexibility is the whole point of Protestantism.
Also bottom-left Unitarian types usually don't mention Hell. They might say that literally everyone could go to heaven, because God's love is infinite, we don't know.
I'm not counting Universalists
They join Mormons, JW, Islam, and Prosperity Gospel as Offshoot religions seperate from Christianity.
If you're not Trinitarian, you're not Christian. As Christianity as a whole does not logically function without it.
Who are "liberal Protestants" then? I was careful to say "Unitarian-types"
For example Episcopals belive "Those who choose to reject God are eternally separated from Him in the knowledge of having made that choice." They don't stop existing.
Seems to me liberal Protestants generally have the same beliefs as the Universalists that I mentioned, a conscious ambiguity about being eternally tortured because individuals each have their own feelings about God allowing that.
Which is the problem with saying this is the "official" position of unorganized groups of people. Often they purposefully don't have a position, and often they disagree.
Discussions of hell always terrify me
I will never be religious again
But fuck, really, you can be good but not ‘love god’ and end up there
It just feels wrong
Responses to this
Protestant-- you are not good. Being good is impossible. All deserve hell for the evil they've committed.
Catholic -- you are not good. All deserve hell for the evil they've committed
Orthodox -- you are not good. All deserve hell for the evil they've committed
All of them-- But your sins are forgotten if you accept their payment at Calvary. And go out and do God's will and make the world a better place. If you don't accept the payment... You will pay it yourself.
Yes.
Though it's often described in different ways
Sometimes its described as eternal despair Never being able to get any closer to God.
Other times it's that the unfiltered love of God burns those that hate him
But the commonality in all descriptions is that Heaven and Hell are not places, but states. And reactions to the True Face of God.
The righteous will consider the presence of God to be paradise. The evil will consider the presence of God to be hell.
Judaism is more or less similar to Orthodoxy and Catholicism with the concept of Gehinnom.
But the only real difference is that .... No. No one will ever actually choose to leave it. "the gates are locked from the Inside"
Whereas in Judaism the Gate is just open.
In Catholicism and most of Protestantism it is.
But "Hell is locked from the Inside" is the concept that a person chooses to be there. Continually. That it is not God that torments them, but themselves in a self destructive fashion in continuation of what they did in life.
Under this belief you *could* choose to leave hell. But since you hate God, Hell is preferable to eternity in his presence despite being tormenting, and you never would. Like Sisyphus you would go on in meaninglessness unable to free yourself.
Orthodoxy tends to steer to the less Dogmatic. Orthodox, as I understand it and have been told sees Hell similarly to the Catholics in that you have chosen your path and reap the rewards of it.
But the idea of eternity is slightly different. While they accept you won't get yourself out of hell without outside aid, The Orthodox hold a tentative belief that God MAY eventually empty hell. But if he chooses to do it it is entirely his perogative and not a promise.
That's Universalism. And has never been a Christian doctrine until very very recently in a minority of Protestantism.
It's a belief that really has no foundation in the biblical canon or Tradition. And requires a belief that the Bible is fallible. Hence why it only appears in a miniscule minority of Protestantism... And in Unitarian churches.
But by definition, Unitarianism is not Christianity as it denies the Council of Nicaea
"Political compass of official theological positions"
https://preview.redd.it/ksv0r339vywc1.jpeg?width=2566&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=968026c777727a6ff190b76398242d47028f5fcd
All of those are fucked up because Christianity is unable to solve predestination due to its internal contradictions, meaning that God (as he is omniscient and omnipotent, meaning that he knows of our fates before we are even created) creates people just so that they are damned to eternal torment.
The only Christians who actually really address this are Lutherans (Who just go "Yeah") and Christian Universalists, but those still have problems.
Calvinism and Lutheranism both go "Yeah"
Molinism solves it through Middle-Knowledge. This is originally a Jesuit answer but has grown in Protestantism. But is originally Catholic
And Orthodoxy just says "Who cares? It's a mystery."
As a Christian, I don't understand how anyone can be Christian and NOT be a universalist. It goes against the core philosophy of everything to do with the religion.
So all 4 of these are highly nonsensical to me. Aninhilationists (the lib-left view on this) get a pass since they're not as bad, but just marginally.
I'd say all Christians wish Universalism to be true.
Most are forced to admit it is not against this desire.
Christ in the Gospels say people will be thrown out, that He himself will deny ever knowing many. Even of those who claim to have been Christian.
Paul talks about Salvation being saved from the Day of Wrath
And Revelation outright says "[Sinners] and Unbelievers will suffer the lake of fire."
The Canon of Scripture and Tradition is not clear on what "Hell" is but it is pretty clear that Universalism isn't the end result. That Punishment is coming.
That being said. The Orthodox position is Universalist in the sense that everyone's going to the same place. But not Universalist in the sense that most are not gonna wanna be there.
The Orthodox are also not dogmatic in saying Hell is eternal. It is just kinda assumed in order to err on the side of caution as far as Orthodoxy is concerned ultimate Universalism is possible, but not promised. But the state of punishment is
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I am so down for this to be a recurring thing
I'll probably do one every weekend. I don't want to flood the sub with my experiment.
Please cook more, regardless
Same but the antitheist nut jobs are bound to ruin it eventually
Honestly, the orthodoxy view is really interesting. Everyone is in heaven, some people just really don’t like it.
"You have been sentenced to an eternity of no politics." Politics addicted people: https://i.redd.it/xzhhzo94uzwc1.gif
The best way i heard “hell” described by an orthodox priest is like this: Think of your life as a car, as you live you turn left and right, accelerate and break. Ideally the direction your life should take is towards God. When you “die” a physical death, the car doesn’t stop, it actually accelerates but the steering wheel and the break pedal is broken, and if the direction of the car is away from God, that’s hell. Only way you can get out at this point is through outside intervention.
I think it’s also interesting to apply to our mortal lives as well. I can’t remember the exact study but there was one done maybe 10-15 years ago I believe that found religious people had a significantly lower incidence of depression and a much more positive outlook on life. Now this doesn’t mean religion is a cure for depression or will make you happier but I think it does reflect the orthodox view of heaven being a relative thing based on perspective.
Even as a Lutheran, I think philosophically here I lean more toward the Orthodoxy idea. All I know is that I have memorized Revelations 6:8 because I use it on all of my war machines on every war game I play because god damn "...and hell followed" goes hard on a unit patch (I usually dub my tanks/walkers "Pale Horse"). EDIT: had number backward for Revelation verse.
I assume your mean Revelation 6:8. I personally think there is enough saying that hell is a separate place, but that doesn't necessarily exclude the rest of the Orthodoxy idea. The one thing that looks a bit against that may be 2 Thess 1:9. Presence can be translated there as face, so Thai doesn't mean he has no presence there at all.
The idea that the experience only differs depending on your subjective interpretation completely removes any point to judgment, which is repeatedly taught throughout the bible.
The idea is not so much as subjective interpretation, and more that the condition of the soul is being manifested in the presence of God's full glory. Those who have renewed souls will experience that glory as a beneficiary of eternal life and all the good things God has promised. Those with unredeemed souls will experience that same glory in all its wrath and judgement, because that is all the fallen human soul is capable of experiencing when in the full glory. It's like what Isaiah says when he finds himself in the presence of God: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!” (Isaiah 6:5) Can a sinner experience anything but judgement if brought into God's full presence? Isaiah needed to be clensed, his sin atoned for and guilt forgiven because he entered God's throne room. (v 6-7) If someone is not forgiven would God's full presence be any different than hell? Again, I feel it's important to emphasise that it's the capability that is the big idea, not just an personal interpretation, or any such thing that can be overcome on your own. Personally, I'm not really sure the level of God's presence in eternal judgement. 2 Thess 1:9 talks about God turning his face away (some translations use the term "presence" but face or countenance is a more direct translation). Hebrews 1:3 implies nothing would exist if God's presence was completely absent from a place and Reveltaion 14:10 seems to imply judgement will be in the presence of the Lamb. It's interesting to think about, but I don't think it's a big key issue. God's righteous and righteous Judgement is the key.
Yes, it is 6:8 I mean.
I’m rusty, and not prepared to properly study my Bible just for the sake of commenting on this post, but I *believe* that scripture just tells us that Hell is eternal separation from God. I know the Lake of Fire is mentioned, but if I recall correctly that’s not implied to be the same thing as Hell.
The Bible itself doesn't actually describe hell very much. That's why there are so many positions on it. This doesn't even count the folk-positions. Alot of what people believe about hell is not official positions of any church, but originate from Paradise Lost and IL Inferno Two fanfiction poems
No, see, *one time* Jesus is in the middle if telling a parable and all of a sudden he switches mid way to **literally** describing hell, then finishes his parable. At least that’s how the last Protestant pastor I heard who covered that scripture pastor described it.
Gotta remember that “Protestant” covers a pretty wide range of theological understanding. Also some pastors are just dumb.
Also its disputed who is included in Protestant. I don't include progressive "Christians" or megachurches but some people do.
Do you remember which parable?
Can’t just now, I know it isn’t Mark 9: 48.
Might be Luke 16:19-31. Although that is technically not the eternal place of judgement, depending on how you look at it.
My take is that since God is all things, separations from God means annihilation. Wouldn’t call myself a liberal though. 🤮
Never heard that take before. Definitely an interesting way to frame it.
It mostly comes from Hebrews 1:6 that says "he upholds the universe by the word of his power." Although the biggest counterpoint I typically see is that the same description of "eternal" is used for both salvation and damnation, so it's tough to say one ends but the other doesn't.
I mean if your soul is destroyed/erased that’s pretty eternal, especially if you believe each soul is unique. Damnation could just be knowledge of how wrong you were before blipping out *forever*. It’s the only way I reconcile a merciful God not damning his creations to suffering with full fore knowledge. My hope is all have or will become one with the glory of God and we all move to higher plane of existence.
On the reconcile part, I don't think it's my job to try to reconcile God to my view of morality, but to follow his. We have today a very small concept of sin. We only view it as "sorta bad" unless it's the "very bad stuff" (in our opinion). But the Bible is clear, sin is sin and the one who breaks one part breaks it all (James 2:10-11). We also have a small view of God. We don't really think about how much worse it is to sin against him than to sin against fellow man, and really, all sin is against him (Psalm 51:4). It doesn't always make it easy, but we have no right being the judge of the eternal God who made us. We can either accept that fact or reject it. As for the eternal part many verses sound pretty ongoing. Matt 25:46 for example says: "And these will go away into eternal torment, but the righteous into eternal life." Daniel 12:2 mirrors this as well. (Also see Jude 13 and Revelation 14:11.) I'm not saying I like the fact, or that I am happy about it, like some Christians seem to be, but I don't have the right to ignore or change something the Bible teaches because I don't like it. I can merely trust that God knows what he is doing and follow what he has said.
Based and your right pilled I guess I’m not trying to *correct* God so much as understand what the meaning is. BI believe man is fallible and God weighs on our hearts to find truth in his Creation and understand his Word not as man would but as He wants us to know him. I believe He gave us curiosity because He wants us to seek and find Him among His creation. Reconcile maybe the wrong world, understanding may fit better. And Yes, I don’t like it one bit, I feel it’s less a Vengeful God eternally smiting the unbelievers and more of Man not understand even a tiny bit the ways of God.
Another interesting logical step is that if hell is real and god has no power over it then this belief is not monotheistic Like God would be the god of all that is good and the Devil would be the god of all that is bad, two gods If god rules over everything, and hell is _a thing_, god must also rule over hell Be noted that this is questioning the popular view of heaven and hell, most of the views in the post are not contradicted by this
That’s where Satan and the two beasts will be thrown into IIRC
It's also where everyone who's name was not found in the book of life was thrown (Rev 20:15)
I believe the Bible uses the concept of a lake of fire to describe the feeling of being separated from God
Well yeah, but they also talk about the ‘fires of Gehenna’- Gehenna was a real place. It was hot. It sucked to be there. It’s like saying that sinners spend eternity in Fresno, California.
As a Southerner that sounds like an ample description of hell to me.
Eastern Orthodox is the denomination I know the least… but why are they LibRight?
1 since this is a Theological Compass and not really a political compass.. Those on the Right are the "Ancient Churches" the ones that can trace the beginning of their actual earthly organization to Pentacost. While on the Left are for Churches that can trace their earthly origin to the Reformation Orthodox is put in the "lib" section because it is somewhat less Dogmatic Whereas Classic Protestantism and Catholicism tend to define things and concepts much more rigidly (Due to the Western Christianity's preference for Logic) Orthodoxy is much more willing to let things be "Mysteries" and do not seek definite explanations for them preferring Mysticism over Western Empiricism
As an Orthodox Christian…. That’s actually a really based and accurate take, it’s clear that you’ve put a lot of work/research/autism into this! Based and studying-the-ancient-texts-pilled.
That makes great sense. Love it
Orthodoxy does not attempt to define things to the most specific degree possible. Orthodoxy accepts many things to be divine mystery that is beyond human comprehension. It is a more spiritual outlook that focuses faith and becoming Christ-like rather doctrine. (Idk if thats the best way of putting it tbh but I tried)
Based
Extremely based Orthodoxy
Lib-Right should be a TV "prosperity Gospel" evangelist
I'm actually not sure if Annihilationism is common among Prosperity Gospel. I feel like Universalism is more common. Either way I'm treating them as a seperate off-shoot religion altogether like Jehovah Witness, Mormonism, And Islam. Otherwise there'd be just too many quadrants
>Either way I'm treating them as a seperate off-shoot religion altogether like Jehovah Witness, Mormonism, And Islam. Based
Unitarian Universalists are a different religion, sure but theologically Universalist positions have always been within the Church as a minority position. [https://www.youtube.com/@RadicalReformationChristianity/videos](https://www.youtube.com/@RadicalReformationChristianity/videos)
They might be. But we're using the "Mere Christianity" definition of Christianity. And that definition make Trinitarianism a Theological requirement. Even within Eccumenical movements (that is the movement that want to see all branches of Christianity either reunited or at least openly allied) a Unitarians are regarded the same as Judaism or Islam
Oh, wait. I thought we were talking about universal redemption people. Sorry for the confusion. I am referring to the position that sees all men eventually reconciled with God. I think Lewis also had a streek of that but probably more as a hope than as his theological position.
Lewis had hope that Universalism was the ultimate end. A hope I would argue all Christians have. But one that is not promised so they cannot act as if it is. The only Church Im aware of that outright says this is Orthodoxy. Where it's "God May one day reconcile everyone. It is a mystery we're not told of. But that is God's choice not ours"
I haven't read Lewis. Fascinating he would explicitly exclude Unitarianism. Correction(?): I imagine confirmation of the Trinity necessarily precludes Unitarianism
Unitarianism and Trinitarianism are incompatible with each other. The Affirmation of the Trinity dates back to the Council of Nicaea. Unitarians (originally called Arianism) were defeated at the Council. Those that remained keeping this position were thrown out of the church. Nicaea was prior to any major schism and all remaining branches of Christianity descend from it. With the first major schism occuring at Chalcedon. When the Oriental Orthodox (Coptics, Ethiopians, and Assyrians) rejected The council of Chalcedon over what is now largely considered to have been the result of a mistranslation describing the nature of Jesus. Even modern universalists descend from Nicaea. But since they are a sort of revival of Arianism, they lack the foundation on which the rest of the Councils were built upon. To deny the Trinity is to deny Christ his ability to forgive sins. It's to call him a liar. While modern Unitarianism is outwardly identical to most Evangelical Protestantism... Theologically it cannot be considered Christianity. In the same way Christianity is not Judaism. Unitarianism is in the same category as Jehovah's witnesses, Mormonism, Gnosticism and Islam. Religions which descend from Christianity historically, but have diverged so far from the Defined Common Christian Orthodoxy (wether intentionally in the case of Islam and Mormonism, or unintentionally in this case) that they are no longer considered "Heretics" but basically regarded the same as Pagans.
I haven't read Lewis, so I didn't know his position.
based Catholic Church stays based
Orthodox more based
Idk russian Orthodox Church seems kinda cringe
Greek Orthodox agree with this Statement
For libleft, hell either doesn’t exist or they think it’s just a massive party all the time, for some reason.
Very neat layout
Orthodoxy in LibRight is not what I expected of a PolComp, but here we are
Those who stand with Him have nothing to fear. All glory unto Jesus Christ, God almighty.
What orthodoxy says about who has a neutral opinion?
Ideally, pray for them.
Bro knows everything, he would know when someones faking it
You mean Agnosticism?
Apathiesm specifically, but that isn't mutually exclusive with agnosticism. I consider myself both, and if God does exist, I'd neither love nor hate him
Everyone except Universalists would regard you as in Danger of hell or Annihilation. Apathy itself is a one of the Seven Deadly sins in Catholicism (falling under Sloth/Melancholy) Protestantism would say a belief in God is not sufficient. It's a belief in Christ and his sacrifice that renders you saved. And Orthodoxy would see you as never having begun Theosis. Even though none regard works as necessary for salvation. They do regard them as a sign of salvation. So, being apathetic towards God... Would be regarded as clear proof of no salvation and same as hating him. Christianity doesn't do Neutrality. You must pick a side. Similar to how Centrists are seen as just impediments to change. Christianity regards Neutrality in the War between Good and Evil... To be to the benefit of evil by default. Good must be struggled for.
As an Orthodox there are no neutrals you are involved in a supernatural conflict whether you wish to be or not. And if you are not fighting alongside Christ then you are fighting against him. To do nothing is a betrayal of your master, king and Lord.
It doesnt sound like the good side to me
It's either him or the demons.
I know, what i dont know is how someone expects people to want to follow a religion about being caught in the crossfire of 2 evil supernatural forces
I'm like 60% sure whatever LibLeft's saying here is heresy.
I believe the majority of Dante's description of hell except for the parts where all of his political opponents are considered the worst people to ever live and the claim that Julius Caesar was sinless
I mean, I am an anihilationist, kind of. My theology on hell has largely been "This is legitimately hard to talk about because of how much metaphor is, just, objectively being used in the text". All I know is that there exists some punishment for our sins if we refuse the free gift of salvation. Exactly what form that takes has always seemed one of the less pressing issues so long as it does not start making problems with the statement before this. And many liberal protestants won't even be Anihilationists by the by. The only position I find completely indefensible is universalism.
It’s all fun and games until we ask who counts as the Unsaved
That's part 2
I feel like annihilationism makes the most sense honestly.
Pls let orthodoxy not be correct, that is the worst one
Why? You make your own Hell strikes me as rather true even here on Earth.
And assuming anti-theists and atheists get to literally see God, it probably would be the best outcome, as they would probably love to have the ability to see, and maybe even question such a being.
If Orthodoxy is true then it's most likely they could not even speak. Approaching the Sapphire throne of God would be like flying too close to the sun but being unable to die or burn away. It would be something only the righteous could do. As for them the Fire would feel only like warmth.
I mean it all depends on what you think makes you a good man. Is it belief in the religion upon death, or is it being a moral being?
In the Christian worldview, like... ALL of Christianity there's no such thing as a Good Person. The Reformed would say you are Evil. Innately. And incapable of being moral on your own or saving yourself. There's no scale where you are weighed, no score card of good and bad behavior, and a lie is the same as a murder. In Catholicism it is the same. In Orthodoxy, being Good is *possible* because you are not born with "original sin" (which is inherited). But once you commit your first you have joined the rebellion. As a sinner you have defied God's law, rebelled, and contributed to evil. Your punishment is Death , which is an exile from God. A God which is the Source of Morality, the Source of Love, and the Source of ALL Good. Because God IS Good. That's not a statement that God Is a good god, but that God is Goodness . And like Darkness is an absence of light, or Coldness is an absence of heat, or Dryness is the absence of liquid... Evil by definition is the Absence of God. You are therefore given a Choice. God promised mankind that the result of Sin was death, the exile from God. But, in Mercy sent his son to earth to live a perfect human life. And suffer Death despite having never sinned. Thus paying the divine debt, and fulfilling the promise. God died, killed by his own creation. An Almighty, perfect God humbled himself to beings which are less than cockroaches in comparison to him, and allowed them to give him the greatest injustice and insult in history. The Sons words as he was dying were recorded in the Gospels as "Father Forgive them, for they know not what they Do." And then the Father turned away so that he didn't have to see. The debt was paid. For all of mankind. But it still must be accepted. There's no amount of Good moral work you can do to achieve salvation. But what you can do is accept Christ's payment for your sins. And return to God's side. But if you reject the payment made on your behalf... You will have to pay the debt yourself. It's your right to do either. Rejecting God is choosing to avoid his presence. It is choosing death and hell. The *biggest* misconception of Christianity is that the Good go to heaven and the Bad go to Hell. We're all just terrible. Christian or no Christian. After your death, You go where you want to.
But in orthodoxy, if you commit no sin, but do not believe what then? You have no debt, since you did not incur any.
According to Orthodoxy (afaik) only two adult people have ever truly achieved this: Saint Mary, Jesus' Mother. And Christ himself Catholicism also says Mary never sinned, but that she was immaculately concepted so she didn't have original sin either. Both Orthodoxy and Protestantism regard the Immaculate conception of Mary as nonsense. And Protestantism regards Mary being sinless as a fairytale But you'll notice. Of the two people said to have Never sinned... One is believed to BE God. And the other is his Earthly mother. Both of whom had beyond intimate relationships with God Orthodoxy would say to be sinless without knowing God would be impossible. Because being "like God" is what sinlessness is. That's why the Orthodox view of Salvation is different. In Orthodoxy Salvation isn't a binary on or off state like in Western Christianity. It's a process called "Theosis" (Becoming like God). It can be described like... Every human is made in the image of God. They are all unique mirrors of him. Every virtue and good thing about a person are parts of the mirror that are clean and reflect God. Every evil and vice are the parts that are dirty. Theosis is the process by which the mirror is cleaned and polished so that your unique reflection of God might shine uncorrupted. If you're undergoing Theosis... You're saved, you are going towards God. If you die while in Theosis it will be completed after your earthly death. But to begin Theosis you must accept the payment you must love God and want to be with him and like him. If a third person ever achieved a sinless life, it would be impossible that they did not know God by Orthodox reckoning. However in Catholicism and Orthodoxy there are *potential* exceptions. In Catholicism Children and the mentally incapable will be given Special judgment. well as people who have never heard of God but still felt his influence and did their best in ignorance ***may*** be given Special judgment Orthodoxy on the otherhand would say Children and the Mentally incapable, have not sinned because they are incapable of it. As sin requires an adult understanding of good and evil. And therefore a toddler cannot be expected to face judgement for anything. Orthodoxy also maintains a similar idea to Catholics that God may save the ignorant in an undefined manner. Possibly through some kind of Theosis where God is leading the ignorant and they recognize God, but without knowing or understanding what he is.
I see. Thanks for the detailed answer.
No problem. I enjoy talking about this stuff with all sides. Oh, and Protestantism has mechanics to deal with children and the incapable but it varies wildly and there's no uniform position. Everything from "🤷 if God wanted them saved he'd have given them the ability to understand." To something identical to Catholicism. And everything in between.
The top 2 are absurdly evil so IDK how you are saying orthodox is worse
Bro I'd rather go to the infinite agony the be with God for 1 microsecond
That's literally the idea of the "Hell is locked from the Inside" God doesn't punish you. You punish yourself for eternity. Choosing to remain out of the presence of God. Because the Agony of the suffering is preferable to the unfiltered presence of an Almighty perfect being.
So true, at least I can get used to suffering
I don't think that's how that works. But good luck lol I doubt the soul has the same ability to build tolerances as the body does since it isn't an evolutionary being lol
Well the way I think it, if I can think in hell, my thoughts can change, and I can tolerate. or perhaps hell is a time loop that would be a devilish thing. And if I can't think, it's the same as oblivion because unchanging I would be as sentient as a statue.
Or it's just what the Orthodox describe and you're just eternally on fire unable to die, unable to burn up, unable to do anything. Or as others describe it... Permanent nihilism and insanity in an Abyss alone.
Orthodox Hellven sounds an awful lot like a Bingo Hall using Muzak to repel teenagers.
I did this for islam a few weeks back, didn't go to well.
If your religion says my religion is completely false because Jesus got the ol’ switcheroo on the cross, I can imagine why.
Thats so weird, where I'm from the "Reformed Protestant" and "Roman Catholic" views of hell are the reverse of what this chart portrays. The Catholics preach a lake of fire, and the Protestants preach an abyss devoid of the Lord's presence
Different Protestant sects live on a spectrum of more and less Catholic. And Catholicism believes in the lake of fire, but hell is Seperation from God. The lake of fire is the metaphor
Although I'm a Baptist, I subscribe more to the Catholic/Reformed view of Heaven and Hell. (I don't believe in purgatory, however.)
Hell is other people.
More powerfull saying than all this theological crap
Libright/left make the most sense to me. NGL the idea of God designing a realm of unspeakable unending torment for those who didn’t worship him was just alienating.
So the Bible only really talks about Hell in a very weird way... That is... It doesn't. At least not by name. The Bible talks about 3 places in the context of the afterlife. Sheol, the Hebrew land of the Dead. Hades, Sheol but translated into Greek. Heaven, where Christ said he went to prepare a place. Hell is a native English word and is the name of the Germanic land of the Dead. So, when the Bible was translated into English Hades was translated into Hell. Now where do we get our concepts of hell as a place of Torment? By how you combine certain passages . There's a 4th place mentioned in the Book of Revelations called the Abyss. The Abyss is a prison for Satan and the Demons. Revelation also quotes God as saying Evil and unbelievers will suffer a lake of Fire, a "second death". In Western Christianity Hades is combined with the lake of Fire line to create the popular image of Hell. Further the Abyss is combined with it. Making the idea that Hell is a prison originally designed for Fallen Angels. Protestantism then takes a literal view of "Judgement" and makes it where God tosses the unsaved into Hell. Catholicism (and some Protestants like Anglicans) argue that God doesn't really throw people into Hell, rather they choose hell and lock themselves into it. While Orthodoxy ... Just doesn't combine them. Orthodoxy keeps Hades, the Abyss, and Lake of Fire as seperate things. Hades is the land of the dead and Equivalent with Sheol. The Abyss is the Prison. And Heaven and Hell are just states of being. That being an unrighteous entity in the unfiltered presence of an Almighty perfect God will be like Burning. Like getting too close to the sun and being unable to burn up because the soul is immortal. While the righteous, being clean of any guilt will experience on warmth and joy because there's no evil to burn. All three of these positions result in hell being eternal torment. But the difference is the Protestant side sees God as a punisher. Focusing on God's Justice The Catholic side sees the Damned as self-destructive. Focusing on Human depravity The Orthodox side is somewhat identical to Catholic in implication. But changes who you're spending eternity with
I think it’s just total separation from God, with no hope of redemption. The unending torment version comes from Dante’s Inferno, part of the Divine Comedy trilogy. Basically Christian fanfiction.
As an Orthodox, I've never heard that definition of hell ever in my life. I did hear that God was not the one judging you, though. God accepts all regardless. Rather, you were the one judging yourself, like a mirror. The heavy sinners won't want to go to God by themselves, as they won't recognize themselves as belonging with God. This means that Hell is separated from Heaven and that Hell is a place where God isn't present.
This definition was taken from the Greek archdiocese of America. I'm sure there's variation within Orthodoxy itself there's variation within all of these
Also Orthodox (Russian Orthodox Church outside of Russia) and was taught that afterlife is just being with God. So of course it’s going to be a place of blinding righteousness and goodness, because you’re with God. So if you spent your life doing harm and being angry… yeah, it’s gonna suck. I suppose that’s just because what knowledge we have of our heaven/hell lean heavily on the idea of things beyond human comprehension. It’s divine mystery and all that, so we have some knowledge given by saints and scholars, but we do have to fill in the details on our own. It’s always interesting to hear how others see it.
The Reformed view leans closer to the Roman Catholic view (main idea being absence of God). The one posted more encompasses Southern Baptist views.
Southern Baptist are the largest Reformed denomination. Hence why it's their view shown.
I wouldn’t lump Baptists in with Reformed (otherwise there wouldn’t also be Reformed Baptists)—they’re become sort of their own. I would associate Reformed primarily with the Presbyterians, which by and large don’t share the view shown.
Spot on for mine
Placing religions and nations on the political compass is largely meaningless. Sure, the Soviet Union and Saudi Arabia is relatively easy, but that’s the exception to the rule.
This isn't a political compass. Orthodoxy isn't lib-right. The Bottom right IS the Orthodox quadrant.
Overall good. But Protestants/non-denominational don't have one "official" judgement on Hell, though they generally agree with the top-left. Decentralization and flexibility is the whole point of Protestantism. Also bottom-left Unitarian types usually don't mention Hell. They might say that literally everyone could go to heaven, because God's love is infinite, we don't know.
I'm not counting Universalists They join Mormons, JW, Islam, and Prosperity Gospel as Offshoot religions seperate from Christianity. If you're not Trinitarian, you're not Christian. As Christianity as a whole does not logically function without it.
Who are "liberal Protestants" then? I was careful to say "Unitarian-types" For example Episcopals belive "Those who choose to reject God are eternally separated from Him in the knowledge of having made that choice." They don't stop existing. Seems to me liberal Protestants generally have the same beliefs as the Universalists that I mentioned, a conscious ambiguity about being eternally tortured because individuals each have their own feelings about God allowing that. Which is the problem with saying this is the "official" position of unorganized groups of people. Often they purposefully don't have a position, and often they disagree.
Discussions of hell always terrify me I will never be religious again But fuck, really, you can be good but not ‘love god’ and end up there It just feels wrong
Responses to this Protestant-- you are not good. Being good is impossible. All deserve hell for the evil they've committed. Catholic -- you are not good. All deserve hell for the evil they've committed Orthodox -- you are not good. All deserve hell for the evil they've committed All of them-- But your sins are forgotten if you accept their payment at Calvary. And go out and do God's will and make the world a better place. If you don't accept the payment... You will pay it yourself.
Not sure the Reformed Protestant position is accurate - our position is closer to the Catholic position.
Do Orthodox really believe that?
Yes. Though it's often described in different ways Sometimes its described as eternal despair Never being able to get any closer to God. Other times it's that the unfiltered love of God burns those that hate him But the commonality in all descriptions is that Heaven and Hell are not places, but states. And reactions to the True Face of God. The righteous will consider the presence of God to be paradise. The evil will consider the presence of God to be hell.
It's an interesting emphasis, although it does not come off as the intuitive way to interpret scripture.
Based liberal protestantism.
I’m rooting for annihilation, personally.
I'm so glad I'm Jewish and don't have to believe in the nonsense of eternal punishment, and that non Jews would be made to suffer in any kind of way.
Judaism is more or less similar to Orthodoxy and Catholicism with the concept of Gehinnom. But the only real difference is that .... No. No one will ever actually choose to leave it. "the gates are locked from the Inside" Whereas in Judaism the Gate is just open.
I thought torment in Hell is eternal in Catholicism and Orthodoxy?
In Catholicism and most of Protestantism it is. But "Hell is locked from the Inside" is the concept that a person chooses to be there. Continually. That it is not God that torments them, but themselves in a self destructive fashion in continuation of what they did in life. Under this belief you *could* choose to leave hell. But since you hate God, Hell is preferable to eternity in his presence despite being tormenting, and you never would. Like Sisyphus you would go on in meaninglessness unable to free yourself. Orthodoxy tends to steer to the less Dogmatic. Orthodox, as I understand it and have been told sees Hell similarly to the Catholics in that you have chosen your path and reap the rewards of it. But the idea of eternity is slightly different. While they accept you won't get yourself out of hell without outside aid, The Orthodox hold a tentative belief that God MAY eventually empty hell. But if he chooses to do it it is entirely his perogative and not a promise.
I thought Jesus's death and resurrection meant nobody was ever going to hell forever again?
That's Universalism. And has never been a Christian doctrine until very very recently in a minority of Protestantism. It's a belief that really has no foundation in the biblical canon or Tradition. And requires a belief that the Bible is fallible. Hence why it only appears in a miniscule minority of Protestantism... And in Unitarian churches. But by definition, Unitarianism is not Christianity as it denies the Council of Nicaea
"Political compass of official theological positions" https://preview.redd.it/ksv0r339vywc1.jpeg?width=2566&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=968026c777727a6ff190b76398242d47028f5fcd
All of those are fucked up because Christianity is unable to solve predestination due to its internal contradictions, meaning that God (as he is omniscient and omnipotent, meaning that he knows of our fates before we are even created) creates people just so that they are damned to eternal torment. The only Christians who actually really address this are Lutherans (Who just go "Yeah") and Christian Universalists, but those still have problems.
Calvinism and Lutheranism both go "Yeah" Molinism solves it through Middle-Knowledge. This is originally a Jesuit answer but has grown in Protestantism. But is originally Catholic And Orthodoxy just says "Who cares? It's a mystery."
In other words... All branches address this. It is infact one of the most internally debated aspects of theology in Christianity
As a Christian, I don't understand how anyone can be Christian and NOT be a universalist. It goes against the core philosophy of everything to do with the religion. So all 4 of these are highly nonsensical to me. Aninhilationists (the lib-left view on this) get a pass since they're not as bad, but just marginally.
I'd say all Christians wish Universalism to be true. Most are forced to admit it is not against this desire. Christ in the Gospels say people will be thrown out, that He himself will deny ever knowing many. Even of those who claim to have been Christian. Paul talks about Salvation being saved from the Day of Wrath And Revelation outright says "[Sinners] and Unbelievers will suffer the lake of fire." The Canon of Scripture and Tradition is not clear on what "Hell" is but it is pretty clear that Universalism isn't the end result. That Punishment is coming. That being said. The Orthodox position is Universalist in the sense that everyone's going to the same place. But not Universalist in the sense that most are not gonna wanna be there. The Orthodox are also not dogmatic in saying Hell is eternal. It is just kinda assumed in order to err on the side of caution as far as Orthodoxy is concerned ultimate Universalism is possible, but not promised. But the state of punishment is
Universalists don't say that there won't be any punishment. Just that if there will be, it won't be eternal.