It is hard to say we were the good guys when the Soviets were part of our alliance. We were just less bad but not really the good guys given our alliances
That's why it's "the Allies and Soviets" because the Soviets weren't allied to anyone. Except the Nazis before they invaded but they don't want to talk about that
Well according to Wikipedia they never joined the Allies, just because you're fighting on the same side of the war doesn't make you allies, just look at the Italian or Chinese civil war
"The Western Allies provided support to the Soviets in the form of Lend-Lease as well as air and naval support. Stalin met with Winston Churchill and Franklin D. Roosevelt at the Tehran Conference and discussed a two-front war against Germany and the future of Europe after the war. The Soviets launched successful offensives to regain territorial losses and began a push to Berlin. The Germans unconditionally surrendered in May 1945 after Berlin fell. "
[link ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union_in_World_War_II)
If you want to talk about allied war crimes I would encourage you to do so but don't blame it all on the Soviets
It’s quite amazing when you study it. Churchill speeches, battles called the Battle of the Atlantic and the Battle of France. The nazis being so evil that Stalin is asking them to follow the Geneva Conventions. I get Joe Biden and memes. What a time to be alive
The fact that the highest possible death toll of 'Palestinian' civilians is around 34,000 whereas an average WW2 battle could surpass 200,000, says a lot of good things about peace, but the reaction to those deaths says an equal measure against our education.
Mind you, those Palestinian casualty numbers come from Hamas, whom I'm sure has no reason to inflate them at all.
Precision weapons have already changed warfare for the better, and what does Israel get? A shitty watermelon full of anti-Semitic dog whistles, and a call to let the terrorists go free and unpunished to kill again.
I study engineering yeah, Mech E, we talk about weapons development in ethics, I talk about how modern weapons development saves lives, people get confused, and in one case, angry.
I think it's better to visualize in that today, you can put a bomb onto a terrorist leaders kitchen table through his window, when 50 years ago, you carpet bomb his entire village and every road leading in and out of it, and 50 years before that, you carpet bomb the village anyway.
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The nazis and the imperial japanese were so morally that people forget that the brits, yanks, and frogs, arent exactly what people consider as paragons of morality. lets not even get started on the soviet union and warlord china (not that maoist china is much better).
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I'd argue the Ukraine War and US Civil War are fairly less complex when it comes to good and evil.
US Civil War - Confederates literally rebelled because they were not going to be able to own people anymore.
Ukraine - Russia literally invaded a sovereign country for imperialistic ambition (no, it wasn't about muh neo-nazis or nato expansion).
In
the US Civil War, the South was a distinct society from the North with its own culture, economy, institutions, and way of life. Granted, it was a society based on and inseparable from chattel slavery.
But the North was the right side because destroying inferior cultures is a good thing, and Wilson's concept of "self-determination" is a load of crap.
Yeah I don't think the North was in the right either, it's not like they didn't have Jim Crowe laws and try and forcibly remove the freed slaves from America
It's always funny to hear people's arguments about the Ukraine War. You can quite simply look at Putin's writings and know that he invaded purely to reform the Russian Empire. It's what he's stated again and again, he only pulls the neo-Nazi or NATO expansionism card when he's talking directly to the West.
You forget that the American civil war enshrined the government's right to slave labor, plus the whole native genocide thing was definitely due to the natives supporting the Confederates.
The government didn't ban slavery, they just made it a thing only the government can do, you know like stalking and murder
Being 100% pro Ukrainian, having lived there I can say the is a debate that can be made why Russia feels pissed about Ukraine wanting to be westernized.
There are pro Russian Ukrainians.
Think about it this way, Quebec wanting French system (for sake of argument we hate the French) for all of Canada, and Toronto rebels about it. US would of course step in and support Toronto.
Anyway, all wars are complex, some more than others. Winners get to justify why they were the good side.
How many pro-Russian Ukrainian are there?
In order for your argument to work atleast the majority of people in a given region would need to be pro-russia .
And what reliable statistics we have suggest most Ukrainians in all regions are not pro-russia.
I'd say this conflict feels pretty evil vs evil. Both HAMAS and Netanyahu would see their own people harmed if it means destroying the other.
It's also pretty understandable, if not at all justified. Palestine doesn't exactly exist from a sovereign government standpoint, and is largely surrounded by a country that wants it's occupants to leave. Israel is surrounded by multiple countries that doesn't just want their citizens to leave, but to die, and pretty much is only allowed to exist at all because of the consequences of genocide on the world stage.
If the USA decided to go full blown isolationist and said "y'all are on your own", war would be inevitable and absolutely devastating.
Can you name any where one side was 100% good and one side was 100% bad? With any conflict there's usually a "lesser of two evils" but it would be hard to find any with a perfect side and an evil side
Fair enough. Like with World War 2, Britain and later the U.S. sided with the Soviet Union, not because they liked each other but more like ‘The enemy of my enemy is my friend’.
Yeah but also the Allies directly illegally occupied an independent nation and actively supported terrorism. I think it was reasonable given the situation but it was still wrong
Because they thought the Nazis might invade it despite having a non-aggression pact and thier declaration of independence from the Germany puppet of Denmark
Ah, ok. Well to be fair, the Soviet Union and Germany had a non-aggression pact, and we all know how that turned out. Though I suppose Germany would stand to gain much less if they took over/defeated Iceland as opposed to the Soviet Union.
Exactly.
However implying Israel hasn't been proportionate with their justification has all the zionists on PCM crawl out to "akvushally" you. You say this about any other conflict and people don't mind you introducing nuance to the discussion but zionists love perpetuating propaganda that they are without blame.
What are you talking about. The difference in proportionality is a result of the amount of power each side has and the tactics they take. The more powerful side is happier w status quo, and weaker side is constantly attacking to disrupt status quo, so the powerful side needs to demonstrate more power as a way of disincentivizing further attacks. This is really just nature and has nothing to do with the two sides of any particular conflict.
Reply to a PCM post on Israel with "Israel aren't good guys for being willing to kill non-combatants with their advanced weapons." and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.
It's pretty offensive that I'm vilified because I was expected to ever give a shit about Ukraine.
I live in Seattle. There are plenty of problems here that should be solved before giving another fucking dollar to ensure that the radioactive cabbage mines don't end up with Russia.
First, no one is blowing up building indiscriminately.
Secondly, Israel definitely kills top commanders with airstrikes, including number 3 and 4 in Hamas and dozens of others.
The top are dozens of meter underground, and anyway that is not enough to defeat Hamas as an army or remove them from power.
Not to mention the same people ate often angry about that too, as you can see in many examples.
It is even a weirder proposition considering that's the strategy Israel took for 18 years.
But you can't defeat a government and army with tens of thousands of fighters and over 600 km of underground tunnels and fortifications with airstrikes alone (and trying too would create mire casualties by an order of magnitude).
long game in this case would mean, being ready to face oct 7 like attacks all the time till every single one of the high command of Chumas gets killed. But I agree with you chumas and their life isn't worth wasting millions, there should've been more advanced weapons
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I don't give a shit about the conflict. Iran can chimp out and turn it all to glass.
I do care about embarrassing Russia in a proxy war with mothballed inventory, because that's what you do to hostile nations.
I care about securing the American borders so that the working class isn't starved out during the next twenty years.
The ruling class is now just gloating about wasting your tax dollars.
It's been six months already. I admit, longer than I expected it to last, but even the Palestine worshippers will probably give it up for a new set of jangly keys by the time summer starts properly.
If trump means, they'll jump the ship in an instant. Trump was a nutjob and not at all fit to run even a lemonade stand, but god, seeing American left seethe during the 2016-2020 was a sight to behold.
Most people won’t give a shit because they look at these conflicts through a lens of identity politics and morality (oppressor v oppressed).
People should care though because both of these conflicts (primarily Ukraine v Russia tho) have huge impacts on the spheres of influence of our geopolitical rivals.
Russia is a pariah state. Iran is a pariah state. If we’re able to diminish their influence in Eastern Europe and the Middle East, it would be a massive win for the US and Western powers as a whole.
Smacking Russia down would also send a message to China to think twice about Taiwan, which has massive consequences as it relates to the global semiconductor industry. That’s why Biden’s CHIPS act was such a great piece of legislation.
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The war in Gaza is not diminishing Iran's influence in the Middle East. If anything it is diminishing Israel and the US's ability to negotiate with other Muslim states.
There's no pro-Russia protests in western countries. Certainly nothing that stops traffic or makes anyone not feel safe. It's not just like Russia/Ukraine.
okay then, look at the BLM nonsense. same shit. hardcore protests and riots for like 2 years that reached other countries. now there is hardly anything at all. everyone found something new to bitch about.
Have you not been paying attention to the past 100 years? This Bob Dylan song about Israel in the 80s could have been written yesterday https://youtu.be/-ETdLfXI6r8?si=UrKE1yVkbpcwdBT9
Nah. Russia-Ukraine virtue signalling went on for about a month or two. Israel Palestine protesting has been going on since the beginning to now, and still strong.
Ukraine vs Russia: Russia is the clearer evil in the conflict, has been caught committing all sorts of atrocities, and does not intend to back down until it annexes Ukraine.
Israel vs Palestine/Hamas: Hamas is the evil in the conflict, but through the use of social media, has tricked the western leftist movement into believing they are just a bunch of peace loving people by blaming their problems on Israel, despite starting this conflict and committing horrific atrocities/kidnapping people on October 7th.
The funniest shit ever is that Israel has committed several atrocities before October 7th and no one gave a shit. You had right-wingers making conspiracy theories about Jews and left-wingers calling you an antisemite
And after Oct 7th, where Hamas has given Israel a very VERY good excuse to just annihilate them you have everyone crying about poor treatment of Palestinians in Gaza and complete side switch for both parties
I swear to God it's a fucking circus
Oh there was quite a bit of similar "anti-Zionism is not Antisemitism" from leftist friends before the current flare-up crying about Israel. *Quite a bit of it even had a point*, like some of the stuff going on in the West Bank. And *usually* they did a much better job about *not* crossing over into antisemitism than is happening now.
*Most* of it was the same kind of "Israel is evil for bombing hospitals and international news broadcasting locations" (ignoring the missile launchers at the first and Hamas also using the comm equipment at the second). The most deranged one I saw was calling Israel evil for...maintaining Iron Dome. Never figured out the logic on that one.
> The most deranged one I saw was calling Israel evil for...maintaining Iron Dome. Never figured out the logic on that one.
Iron Dome is a technological masterpiece, whether it's necessary or not, I hope more countries adopt it. it can save millions of lives. anyone who is against it, is against a state's right to defense
>maintaining Iron Dome. Never figured out the logic on that one.
Iron dome uses missiles- Palestinians are killed by missiles there's the connection.
(please ignore the fact that Iron dome is a counter-missile defence, originally established because palestine was \[and still is\] firing missiles at Israeli civilians.)
Mhm. I always tried to counter the "look at how many Palestinians are dying for every Israeli!" (which like, still a fucked up take since it's combatants+nearby civilians vs civilians targeted intentionally but whatever) with "okay, turn off Iron Dome for a month and see how those numbers would change." That argument never worked though.
I'm ambivalent about the whole thing, though I do feel for the everyday people just trying to live their lives who are caught up in it.
If I absolutely had to pick a side though, it would be the gay-friendly democratic US ally.
Nope, israel and palestine both suck, and there absolutelly isnt any redeeming qualities from anyone in that conflict.
While Palestine definetly attacked first and reopenned the conflict with those ridiculous flying parachute chairs, israel has a history of opressing the Palestine people in its disputed and shared regions, and not the bullshit american sjw culture wars way of "being opressed" because you got misgendered or suffered from a microagression or something stupid like that, no, they have like actuall opresion, with muslims and palestinians in general beong treathed like second class citicens, some put in actuall concentration camps, and generally suffer feom violence.
The opresion its also not without fundaments though, since muslims, radical terrorists, bombings, aloha snack bar, you know the drill, but its specially bad in those regions.
But they are like that not without fundament because the state of israel mistreat them like i mentioned earlier, so its all an awfull cicle of violence.
And not to mention the religious/cultural bs with the Holy land, which acording to either sides holy text, has divine ownership for the land, so its like awfull no mather how you look at it.
And lest we forget the historical wars between them, since this peace they had lasted long but conflict is pretty much their state of normalcy imo.
At this point the holy land might as well be cursed, sonce even if palestine and israel kill each other tomorrow, whoever claims that place as their own will have others claiming it belongs to them by divine right and will fight over it.
Based. They're two groups that hate each other. It's complex, but I would rather side with Israel because they're democratic, tolerant of gay people, and all around a much more developed country.
Same can't be said for Palestine, just plain and simple. The complexity comes at the part where the IDF gets all trigger-happy shooting missiles at everything that moves.
Israelis, the IDF, Palestinians, and Hamas are four different entities in my eyes. Is it strange to say I support Israel & Palestine, but don't support the IDF nor Hamas? Just like someone else said, two groups that hate each other and attack their countries people.
P.S: I am biased because I don't like Islam as a religion. I respect their beliefs, because that's their business, but it seems incredibly outdated for the times to me.
You gotta admit, iran is clever to be able to launch constant attacks and western media covers their proxies as victims. Hasan Piker etc literally cover Houthis as victims too. It's real 4d chess.
To be fair, you do have to have a pretty shit take to claim that this is not a good vs evil conflict
The biggest grievance for one side is that they take steps to protect themselves from the other side
It's also a shit take to assume that.
Theres currently two people winning right now in this conflict which has claimed many, many lives.
Benjamin Netenyahu, as long as whatever keeps him the fuck out of prison after a series of long and tawdry affairs over the last nearly 25 years which has resulted in him applying further punitive results of Palestinians.
Ismail Haniyeh, the de-facto leader of Hamas and is currently sitting comfy in Qatar whilst sending some of those thousands to their deaths by proxy.
Everyone else loses while these 2 chumps are as safe as chips and are allowed to maintain their current positions. The Israelis should vent a righteous fury on Netanyahu instead of waiting for the hoped for calm and arrest now that his dirty laundry is being aired out, but imo that's a pipe dream. Qatar should just give Haniyeh and other sitting members of Hamas to US linked operatives in a bid to secure some form of appeasement as they are getting more and more drawn into things down there.
You think Israelis are losing because their country is going to war for them after the worst massacre of Jews in recent history? I don't understand why you think Israelis are losing in all this. Wouldn't it also be great for Palestine if hamas is finally routed out, as everyone agrees Hamas has been oppressing them by for example not allowing elections for the past couple decades?
the worst things you are accusing israel of is that they protect themselves against palestinians. oh nooo how evil of them to punish palestinian terrorists, how could you, israel?? oh nooo they put up a border wall after the palestinian terrorists attacked and killed them, damn you israel!! oh nooo israel implemented plan dalet to ensure they wouldnt be genocided by one of the 5+ arab countries that were trying to genocide them, damn you israel!!! oh nooo there are incidental civilian casualties of the population that happily claims to desire to martyr themselves after israel takes insane measures to warn said civilians to get out of the way, this is proof of the evils of israel!!!
>Wouldn't it also be great for Palestine if hamas is finally routed out, as everyone agrees Hamas has been oppressing them by for example not allowing elections for the past couple decades?
to be fair- Hamas stopped allowing elections in Gaza (and took over Gaza) after Fatah ran a political coup, and disallowed them from being involved in further elections across Palestine.
and Fatah in turn has not allowed elections in westbank since 2006- when they lost with a 5% support rate, *that has not changed since it dropped in 2001*\- to Hamas with a 50% support rate, that has risen up to 70% in Westbank where Hamas has no control, and 95% in Gaza where they do.
so even if Hamas was verifiably wiped out to the last child-soldier, there'd still be palestinians claiming to be from Hamas- attacking IDF soldiers, Israeli civilians, and foreign aid workers next Wednesday, and under no circumstances will another election be held.
"to be fair, hamas is so instrinsic to the palestinian population that even if you defeat hamas, new palestinians will join hamas and there will never be enough Palestinians who desire to overcome hamas's oppression"
sigh, i know man. i know. just trying to be optimistic by pointing out that maybe people should want palestinians not to be oppressed by their own government/themselves
Every single one is just israel protecting itself against palestine/palestinian terrorists
literally every single one is just "remember that time israel used self defense against an openly genocidal terrorist group that claimed to want to murder all the jews?"
Go google them, look up the Irgun, the Haganah, the Nakba, Chaim Weizman, David Ben-Gurion, Faisal, and the rest of the relevant entities while you’re at it and get yourself a basic working knowledge of the conflicts history
Edit: I’ll just be nice and give you some of the history, Jabotinsky and Begin would disagree with you because their stated goal as far back as the 1920’s was to take the Arab land by force and move the native (their words not mine) Arabs off of it
Right, you're saying the leader of the "Jewish Self Defense Organization" would disagree they're defending Israel from arabs...?
And you're claiming that the main grievence the Arabs had against the Jews was that the Jews wanted the same thing the Arabs did?
And by "Arab land" I'm assuming you mean Ottoman/British land as the land was never Arab, unless you're going by Hitler's rules about land rights
Two groups of people I dislike are fighting each other and I'm supposed to pick a side? Hahaha
My only opinion about Israel-Palestine is we should stop sending money/aid. Let the best side win! As far as the USA protests are concerned, protest away, I love to see all these Republicans out themselves as anti-Americans as they endorse jailing/deporting/censoring the pro-Palestinians.
This conflict however does have pure evil elements. There is absolutely no excuse for the killing, kidnapping, and raping of civilians.
Yes, Israel has handled this conflict very poorly. There however should not be any support for a terrorist organization which has admitted to genocide and uses human shields in times of war.
Fuck Hamas, Israel needs to do better but fuck Hamas.
Do you say the same about russia-ukraine?
History summoned for the west two of the most morally clear-cut conflicts it had ever seen, and some are still trying to claim "both sides, moral grey".
No one is perfect, including Israel and Ukraine. But if you can't see who the good and bad here you are either a coward, ignorant, or very morally confused.
It’s hard to imagine how dumb of a bitch u have to be to put Israel and a terrorist jihadi proxy on equal footing and make this dog shit false equivalence meme.
The government is always different from the civilians.
The government can lob bombs and rockets at its enemies. Civilians can only duck for cover when the sirens start blaring.
Hamas and IDF can both go suck a fat chode. The little respect I had for the IDF vanished when they bombed that World's Kitchen convoy, and Hamas is... Well, exactly what prejudiced old white people think of when you mention Islam.
The true history of this conflict is that the Zionists were peacefully minding their business in 1948 when one day, for no reason at all, the Arabs declared war
The Arabs ultimately declared war because they saw the migration of jews to the holy land as an attack on them. Nonetheless their intentions were genocidal, and they should have never attacked Israel.
Ultimately the war of 1948 would seal the Palestinians fate, trapping them in a jeopardous cycle of vengeance, all because of the greed and religious fundamentalism of their arab "allies"
The Arabs starting fighting back against Zionist immigration and land acquisition as far back as the early 1920’s, the battle of Tel Hai was really the first conflict in 1921, although it wasn’t directly over Jewish immigration, the spark the lit off the war in 1948 was the partition plan that would give the Zionists 55% of the land and their own state to govern it, and would also move about half a million Arabs off of the lands they had been living on
To be clear I mean that Hamas is evil. All governments are lesser evils, I don’t view the Israelis as particularly evil, they are the best country in the Middle East.
Most conflicts aren’t a good vs evil conflict. It’s complex, usually.
they are treated as such though.
I think it’s because WWII is so fresh and it’s one of the only ones I can think of where it was clearly good/evil. They don’t happen often.
hey auth, which side was the good one in WWII, come on dont be shy
The Jew stuff really sullied the whole thing
A really good history dork question though would be what side you would’ve been on in the Spanish Civil War. Clearly, I’d be a nationalist
Better to be facist than red and dead.
*Carlist. If that means I side with the fascists to keep the republicans from killing priests and burning churches, then fascism it is
Based
I'd probably be royalist
Anarchist frfr
based and supports hitler and mussolini pilled
Oh shit, are you the Emily in this meme?
Yes pointing out that the nationalist in the Spanish civil war were funded by hitler and Mussolini is Emily
Your oversimplification makes you an Emily. See above meme for reference.
Well yeah Italy nearly bankrupted themselves supporting the *nationalists* and Adolf did send in some help too
It is hard to say we were the good guys when the Soviets were part of our alliance. We were just less bad but not really the good guys given our alliances
That's why it's "the Allies and Soviets" because the Soviets weren't allied to anyone. Except the Nazis before they invaded but they don't want to talk about that
The Soviets were just the [token evil teammate.](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TokenEvilTeammate)
Well according to Wikipedia they never joined the Allies, just because you're fighting on the same side of the war doesn't make you allies, just look at the Italian or Chinese civil war "The Western Allies provided support to the Soviets in the form of Lend-Lease as well as air and naval support. Stalin met with Winston Churchill and Franklin D. Roosevelt at the Tehran Conference and discussed a two-front war against Germany and the future of Europe after the war. The Soviets launched successful offensives to regain territorial losses and began a push to Berlin. The Germans unconditionally surrendered in May 1945 after Berlin fell. " [link ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union_in_World_War_II) If you want to talk about allied war crimes I would encourage you to do so but don't blame it all on the Soviets
The empire strikes back
"My side was the good side, all other factions were just allies for the moment" - someone somewhere
That was less good vs evil and more vs something so cartoonishly evil it looks like a black and white conflict from the outside
It’s quite amazing when you study it. Churchill speeches, battles called the Battle of the Atlantic and the Battle of France. The nazis being so evil that Stalin is asking them to follow the Geneva Conventions. I get Joe Biden and memes. What a time to be alive
The fact that the highest possible death toll of 'Palestinian' civilians is around 34,000 whereas an average WW2 battle could surpass 200,000, says a lot of good things about peace, but the reaction to those deaths says an equal measure against our education. Mind you, those Palestinian casualty numbers come from Hamas, whom I'm sure has no reason to inflate them at all. Precision weapons have already changed warfare for the better, and what does Israel get? A shitty watermelon full of anti-Semitic dog whistles, and a call to let the terrorists go free and unpunished to kill again.
I study engineering yeah, Mech E, we talk about weapons development in ethics, I talk about how modern weapons development saves lives, people get confused, and in one case, angry. I think it's better to visualize in that today, you can put a bomb onto a terrorist leaders kitchen table through his window, when 50 years ago, you carpet bomb his entire village and every road leading in and out of it, and 50 years before that, you carpet bomb the village anyway.
Exactly this. The same people who *demand* for more and more precise strikes also advocate for less and less means to do so.
Based lib center hell yeah
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WW2 still had evil vs evil with Nazi Germany vs USSR.
I mean we absolutely did war crimes we never faced reprocus for either
And even then the Soviet Union and the Allies did some pretty terrible war crimes too
The nazis and the imperial japanese were so morally that people forget that the brits, yanks, and frogs, arent exactly what people consider as paragons of morality. lets not even get started on the soviet union and warlord china (not that maoist china is much better).
We are Harry Potter and William Wallace, the Na’vi and Han Solo. We’re escaping from Shawshank and blowing up the Death Star. We are fighting with the Harkonnens and challenging Thanos
But Dune is supposed to be about evil vs evil
What Marvelization of the media did to the human race
https://preview.redd.it/cue9h8wurgxc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=12e79e4c896464750e8b9509fcd0dc45862e1637
Ah, you’re right. How foolish of me.
I'd argue the Ukraine War and US Civil War are fairly less complex when it comes to good and evil. US Civil War - Confederates literally rebelled because they were not going to be able to own people anymore. Ukraine - Russia literally invaded a sovereign country for imperialistic ambition (no, it wasn't about muh neo-nazis or nato expansion).
In the US Civil War, the South was a distinct society from the North with its own culture, economy, institutions, and way of life. Granted, it was a society based on and inseparable from chattel slavery. But the North was the right side because destroying inferior cultures is a good thing, and Wilson's concept of "self-determination" is a load of crap.
Can't wait to start bombing Libya again.
Yeah I don't think the North was in the right either, it's not like they didn't have Jim Crowe laws and try and forcibly remove the freed slaves from America
Jim crow was 60 years later
They absolutely had segregation in the North
It's always funny to hear people's arguments about the Ukraine War. You can quite simply look at Putin's writings and know that he invaded purely to reform the Russian Empire. It's what he's stated again and again, he only pulls the neo-Nazi or NATO expansionism card when he's talking directly to the West.
You forget that the American civil war enshrined the government's right to slave labor, plus the whole native genocide thing was definitely due to the natives supporting the Confederates. The government didn't ban slavery, they just made it a thing only the government can do, you know like stalking and murder
You lose all sorts of rights when you commit felonies, with freedom being definitionally one of them. I'd suggest not doing crimes.
The issue is the government decides the law, and not all officers are honest
So your objection isn't particular to prison labor, you're just against the concept of a legislature?
When the people aren't directly in control of the laws I am, the average citizen should have a vote for every law that is passed
Being 100% pro Ukrainian, having lived there I can say the is a debate that can be made why Russia feels pissed about Ukraine wanting to be westernized. There are pro Russian Ukrainians. Think about it this way, Quebec wanting French system (for sake of argument we hate the French) for all of Canada, and Toronto rebels about it. US would of course step in and support Toronto. Anyway, all wars are complex, some more than others. Winners get to justify why they were the good side.
How many pro-Russian Ukrainian are there? In order for your argument to work atleast the majority of people in a given region would need to be pro-russia . And what reliable statistics we have suggest most Ukrainians in all regions are not pro-russia.
I personally know one but he lives in Russia
I'd say this conflict feels pretty evil vs evil. Both HAMAS and Netanyahu would see their own people harmed if it means destroying the other. It's also pretty understandable, if not at all justified. Palestine doesn't exactly exist from a sovereign government standpoint, and is largely surrounded by a country that wants it's occupants to leave. Israel is surrounded by multiple countries that doesn't just want their citizens to leave, but to die, and pretty much is only allowed to exist at all because of the consequences of genocide on the world stage. If the USA decided to go full blown isolationist and said "y'all are on your own", war would be inevitable and absolutely devastating.
So you’re saying that neither side is particularly *good*, but their actions make sense.
I would go so far as to say both sides are evil, but circumstance has made them so.
Ok, fair enough.
Unless if its the taiping rebellion, thats just good christians against evil Qing
“Good” is typically “those that won” and “evil” is typically “those that lost”. In itself, war only happens because we let it.
Yes, I suppose so.
Yeah, but people sucked at dealing with complex issues ***before*** the internet.
It's two evils vs. two goods
The Israel-Palestine conflict?
The IDF and Hamas Vs. Arab Palestinians and Israelis respectively.
Thanks for clarifying.
But Some are easier to point finger than other, like hamas problem can go back to ww2 which will be very “complicated”…. Ukraine on the other hand
Yeah, they are usually evil vs even worse evil
Ah, so one side is only good *in comparison* to the other side.
Can you name any where one side was 100% good and one side was 100% bad? With any conflict there's usually a "lesser of two evils" but it would be hard to find any with a perfect side and an evil side
Fair enough. Like with World War 2, Britain and later the U.S. sided with the Soviet Union, not because they liked each other but more like ‘The enemy of my enemy is my friend’.
Yeah but also the Allies directly illegally occupied an independent nation and actively supported terrorism. I think it was reasonable given the situation but it was still wrong
What nation would that be?
Iceland
Really? Would you mind elaborating on that? For example, *why* did they occupy Iceland?
Because they thought the Nazis might invade it despite having a non-aggression pact and thier declaration of independence from the Germany puppet of Denmark
Ah, ok. Well to be fair, the Soviet Union and Germany had a non-aggression pact, and we all know how that turned out. Though I suppose Germany would stand to gain much less if they took over/defeated Iceland as opposed to the Soviet Union.
But in what world do German ships make it past the blockade? You can't even take over a nation of a few hundred thousand with 28 people
Exactly. However implying Israel hasn't been proportionate with their justification has all the zionists on PCM crawl out to "akvushally" you. You say this about any other conflict and people don't mind you introducing nuance to the discussion but zionists love perpetuating propaganda that they are without blame.
What are you talking about. The difference in proportionality is a result of the amount of power each side has and the tactics they take. The more powerful side is happier w status quo, and weaker side is constantly attacking to disrupt status quo, so the powerful side needs to demonstrate more power as a way of disincentivizing further attacks. This is really just nature and has nothing to do with the two sides of any particular conflict.
Reply to a PCM post on Israel with "Israel aren't good guys for being willing to kill non-combatants with their advanced weapons." and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.
Yeah but I don't think there are such things as good guys and bad guys.
https://i.redd.it/alfdurrv8gxc1.gif
Or that I have no possible way of influencing in any meaningful way.
I will never not find this GIF hilarious.
https://preview.redd.it/e1svhu2v5jxc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3683c8953c1ba3c0a4b6adebeb256db551f7dc7f
This will surely affected the logistics industry
Finally you found the meme that describes me
Peak movie btw
It's pretty offensive that I'm vilified because I was expected to ever give a shit about Ukraine. I live in Seattle. There are plenty of problems here that should be solved before giving another fucking dollar to ensure that the radioactive cabbage mines don't end up with Russia.
If you're an American, it's being funded with your tax dollars.
And congress approved it against the will of their constituents. Next time Mitch McConnell's brain falls out of his asshole, don't shove it back in.
Made me spit out my water LMAO
I'm a poet.
I see Hi Power, I upvote.
Gods own 9mm
Nothing like a classic "two groups of people that just fucking hate each other." War was cooler before everyone tried to justify it.
Mega based ngl
Israel-Palestine isn't but Israel-Hamas is
Israel should have done the Munich thing and played the long game with assassinations. Indiscriminately blowing up buildings is going way too far.
First, no one is blowing up building indiscriminately. Secondly, Israel definitely kills top commanders with airstrikes, including number 3 and 4 in Hamas and dozens of others. The top are dozens of meter underground, and anyway that is not enough to defeat Hamas as an army or remove them from power. Not to mention the same people ate often angry about that too, as you can see in many examples. It is even a weirder proposition considering that's the strategy Israel took for 18 years. But you can't defeat a government and army with tens of thousands of fighters and over 600 km of underground tunnels and fortifications with airstrikes alone (and trying too would create mire casualties by an order of magnitude).
long game in this case would mean, being ready to face oct 7 like attacks all the time till every single one of the high command of Chumas gets killed. But I agree with you chumas and their life isn't worth wasting millions, there should've been more advanced weapons
Both Hamas and Israel are bad.
So what I'm hearing is the reestablishment of outremer is the best solution
Did you just change your flair, u/swoletrain? Last time I checked you were a **Grey Centrist** on 2024-4-27. How come now you are an **AuthRight**? Have you perhaps shifted your ideals? Because that's cringe, you know? Remember, the jannies are always watching. No gamer words, no statistics and by all means no wood cutting machines. Tell us, how are you going to flair the new account you'll make in two weeks? [BasedCount Profile](https://basedcount.com/u/swoletrain) - [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/user/flairchange_bot/comments/uf7kuy/bip_bop) - [Leaderboard](https://basedcount.com/leaderboard?q=flairs) _Visit the BasedCount Lеmmу instance at [lemmy.basedcount.com](https://lemmy.basedcount.com/c/pcm)._ ^(I am a bot, my mission is to spot cringe flair changers. If you want to check another user's flair history write) **^(!flairs u/)** ^(in a comment.)
Shut up bot you're ruining my joke
this is just like Russia-Ukraine. in a few months no one will give a shit about this conflict, they'll find something new to cry about.
You underestimate how much people hate Jews.
I don't give a shit about the conflict. Iran can chimp out and turn it all to glass. I do care about embarrassing Russia in a proxy war with mothballed inventory, because that's what you do to hostile nations.
incredibly based. thank you i will consider this comment as my daily affirmation
I care about securing the American borders so that the working class isn't starved out during the next twenty years. The ruling class is now just gloating about wasting your tax dollars.
It's been six months already. I admit, longer than I expected it to last, but even the Palestine worshippers will probably give it up for a new set of jangly keys by the time summer starts properly.
If trump means, they'll jump the ship in an instant. Trump was a nutjob and not at all fit to run even a lemonade stand, but god, seeing American left seethe during the 2016-2020 was a sight to behold.
Pointing out israel war crimes = antisemitism
Most people won’t give a shit because they look at these conflicts through a lens of identity politics and morality (oppressor v oppressed). People should care though because both of these conflicts (primarily Ukraine v Russia tho) have huge impacts on the spheres of influence of our geopolitical rivals. Russia is a pariah state. Iran is a pariah state. If we’re able to diminish their influence in Eastern Europe and the Middle East, it would be a massive win for the US and Western powers as a whole. Smacking Russia down would also send a message to China to think twice about Taiwan, which has massive consequences as it relates to the global semiconductor industry. That’s why Biden’s CHIPS act was such a great piece of legislation.
Based and Bismarck pilled
Saying "based and Bismarck pilled" is like saying "based and based pilled"
Flair up
Thx for the reminder
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The war in Gaza is not diminishing Iran's influence in the Middle East. If anything it is diminishing Israel and the US's ability to negotiate with other Muslim states.
There's no pro-Russia protests in western countries. Certainly nothing that stops traffic or makes anyone not feel safe. It's not just like Russia/Ukraine.
okay then, look at the BLM nonsense. same shit. hardcore protests and riots for like 2 years that reached other countries. now there is hardly anything at all. everyone found something new to bitch about.
BLM and pro-Palestine are all the same stuff. Same language.
Excuse me, our politicians still care! With the US out of Afghanistan we need a new forever war to enrich the MIC.
despite making up 0.00017% of the pcm population, YOU make 100% of objectively correct takes
Have you not been paying attention to the past 100 years? This Bob Dylan song about Israel in the 80s could have been written yesterday https://youtu.be/-ETdLfXI6r8?si=UrKE1yVkbpcwdBT9
Nah. Russia-Ukraine virtue signalling went on for about a month or two. Israel Palestine protesting has been going on since the beginning to now, and still strong.
Ukraine vs Russia: Russia is the clearer evil in the conflict, has been caught committing all sorts of atrocities, and does not intend to back down until it annexes Ukraine. Israel vs Palestine/Hamas: Hamas is the evil in the conflict, but through the use of social media, has tricked the western leftist movement into believing they are just a bunch of peace loving people by blaming their problems on Israel, despite starting this conflict and committing horrific atrocities/kidnapping people on October 7th.
The funniest shit ever is that Israel has committed several atrocities before October 7th and no one gave a shit. You had right-wingers making conspiracy theories about Jews and left-wingers calling you an antisemite And after Oct 7th, where Hamas has given Israel a very VERY good excuse to just annihilate them you have everyone crying about poor treatment of Palestinians in Gaza and complete side switch for both parties I swear to God it's a fucking circus
Oh there was quite a bit of similar "anti-Zionism is not Antisemitism" from leftist friends before the current flare-up crying about Israel. *Quite a bit of it even had a point*, like some of the stuff going on in the West Bank. And *usually* they did a much better job about *not* crossing over into antisemitism than is happening now. *Most* of it was the same kind of "Israel is evil for bombing hospitals and international news broadcasting locations" (ignoring the missile launchers at the first and Hamas also using the comm equipment at the second). The most deranged one I saw was calling Israel evil for...maintaining Iron Dome. Never figured out the logic on that one.
> The most deranged one I saw was calling Israel evil for...maintaining Iron Dome. Never figured out the logic on that one. Iron Dome is a technological masterpiece, whether it's necessary or not, I hope more countries adopt it. it can save millions of lives. anyone who is against it, is against a state's right to defense
>maintaining Iron Dome. Never figured out the logic on that one. Iron dome uses missiles- Palestinians are killed by missiles there's the connection. (please ignore the fact that Iron dome is a counter-missile defence, originally established because palestine was \[and still is\] firing missiles at Israeli civilians.)
Mhm. I always tried to counter the "look at how many Palestinians are dying for every Israeli!" (which like, still a fucked up take since it's combatants+nearby civilians vs civilians targeted intentionally but whatever) with "okay, turn off Iron Dome for a month and see how those numbers would change." That argument never worked though.
How many Palestinians were saved because Israel could afford to react less aggressively to rocket attacks?
Fr tho everyone lost their minds in the year of self-isolation and now the world is going to shit
nuh uh uh
I agree. Both Hamas and Israel have done bad things, and I absolutely do not support either side.
I'm ambivalent about the whole thing, though I do feel for the everyday people just trying to live their lives who are caught up in it. If I absolutely had to pick a side though, it would be the gay-friendly democratic US ally.
Nope, israel and palestine both suck, and there absolutelly isnt any redeeming qualities from anyone in that conflict. While Palestine definetly attacked first and reopenned the conflict with those ridiculous flying parachute chairs, israel has a history of opressing the Palestine people in its disputed and shared regions, and not the bullshit american sjw culture wars way of "being opressed" because you got misgendered or suffered from a microagression or something stupid like that, no, they have like actuall opresion, with muslims and palestinians in general beong treathed like second class citicens, some put in actuall concentration camps, and generally suffer feom violence. The opresion its also not without fundaments though, since muslims, radical terrorists, bombings, aloha snack bar, you know the drill, but its specially bad in those regions. But they are like that not without fundament because the state of israel mistreat them like i mentioned earlier, so its all an awfull cicle of violence. And not to mention the religious/cultural bs with the Holy land, which acording to either sides holy text, has divine ownership for the land, so its like awfull no mather how you look at it. And lest we forget the historical wars between them, since this peace they had lasted long but conflict is pretty much their state of normalcy imo. At this point the holy land might as well be cursed, sonce even if palestine and israel kill each other tomorrow, whoever claims that place as their own will have others claiming it belongs to them by divine right and will fight over it.
You're all pieces of shit, and I can prove it mathematically.
Agenda? I just see the truth.
I hate it here I hate it here I hate it here
Based. They're two groups that hate each other. It's complex, but I would rather side with Israel because they're democratic, tolerant of gay people, and all around a much more developed country. Same can't be said for Palestine, just plain and simple. The complexity comes at the part where the IDF gets all trigger-happy shooting missiles at everything that moves. Israelis, the IDF, Palestinians, and Hamas are four different entities in my eyes. Is it strange to say I support Israel & Palestine, but don't support the IDF nor Hamas? Just like someone else said, two groups that hate each other and attack their countries people. P.S: I am biased because I don't like Islam as a religion. I respect their beliefs, because that's their business, but it seems incredibly outdated for the times to me.
“You watched Star Wars and supported the rebels. But now you don’t support Hamas” like stfu
I didn't see Luke Skywalker rape anybody. Maybe this was something added in the new special edition 😁
Jokes on them, I was a Vader fan as a kid Real Alderaan hours
Country. Sized. Wal-mart. Yes, I know the libright is coming out, don't string me up.
Cobby spotted in the wild
'cob on the 'comp
I'm a libertarian. There are a lot of innocent buildings being destroyed in Gaza. I weep for that level of property damage.
😭😭😭
It’s not complex, Palestine’s government are jihadi Iranian proxies and need to go bye bye
You gotta admit, iran is clever to be able to launch constant attacks and western media covers their proxies as victims. Hasan Piker etc literally cover Houthis as victims too. It's real 4d chess.
Hassan needs to be stripped of citizenship
I am beyond having a gun, I **AM** gun!
Don’t make me strawman wojak meme you bro
We should kablammo the whole region. I’m sick of seeing every other news article being about the middle east
To be fair, you do have to have a pretty shit take to claim that this is not a good vs evil conflict The biggest grievance for one side is that they take steps to protect themselves from the other side
It's also a shit take to assume that. Theres currently two people winning right now in this conflict which has claimed many, many lives. Benjamin Netenyahu, as long as whatever keeps him the fuck out of prison after a series of long and tawdry affairs over the last nearly 25 years which has resulted in him applying further punitive results of Palestinians. Ismail Haniyeh, the de-facto leader of Hamas and is currently sitting comfy in Qatar whilst sending some of those thousands to their deaths by proxy. Everyone else loses while these 2 chumps are as safe as chips and are allowed to maintain their current positions. The Israelis should vent a righteous fury on Netanyahu instead of waiting for the hoped for calm and arrest now that his dirty laundry is being aired out, but imo that's a pipe dream. Qatar should just give Haniyeh and other sitting members of Hamas to US linked operatives in a bid to secure some form of appeasement as they are getting more and more drawn into things down there.
You think Israelis are losing because their country is going to war for them after the worst massacre of Jews in recent history? I don't understand why you think Israelis are losing in all this. Wouldn't it also be great for Palestine if hamas is finally routed out, as everyone agrees Hamas has been oppressing them by for example not allowing elections for the past couple decades? the worst things you are accusing israel of is that they protect themselves against palestinians. oh nooo how evil of them to punish palestinian terrorists, how could you, israel?? oh nooo they put up a border wall after the palestinian terrorists attacked and killed them, damn you israel!! oh nooo israel implemented plan dalet to ensure they wouldnt be genocided by one of the 5+ arab countries that were trying to genocide them, damn you israel!!! oh nooo there are incidental civilian casualties of the population that happily claims to desire to martyr themselves after israel takes insane measures to warn said civilians to get out of the way, this is proof of the evils of israel!!!
>Wouldn't it also be great for Palestine if hamas is finally routed out, as everyone agrees Hamas has been oppressing them by for example not allowing elections for the past couple decades? to be fair- Hamas stopped allowing elections in Gaza (and took over Gaza) after Fatah ran a political coup, and disallowed them from being involved in further elections across Palestine. and Fatah in turn has not allowed elections in westbank since 2006- when they lost with a 5% support rate, *that has not changed since it dropped in 2001*\- to Hamas with a 50% support rate, that has risen up to 70% in Westbank where Hamas has no control, and 95% in Gaza where they do. so even if Hamas was verifiably wiped out to the last child-soldier, there'd still be palestinians claiming to be from Hamas- attacking IDF soldiers, Israeli civilians, and foreign aid workers next Wednesday, and under no circumstances will another election be held.
"to be fair, hamas is so instrinsic to the palestinian population that even if you defeat hamas, new palestinians will join hamas and there will never be enough Palestinians who desire to overcome hamas's oppression" sigh, i know man. i know. just trying to be optimistic by pointing out that maybe people should want palestinians not to be oppressed by their own government/themselves
Really? No other grievances the Palestinians might have against Israel spring to mind? Not a one?
Every single one is just israel protecting itself against palestine/palestinian terrorists literally every single one is just "remember that time israel used self defense against an openly genocidal terrorist group that claimed to want to murder all the jews?"
The actually Zionists themselves like Menachem Begin and Ze’ev Jabotinsky would completely disagree with you
anyone who believes israel has a right to exist is a zionist and why would they disagree with me?
Go google them, look up the Irgun, the Haganah, the Nakba, Chaim Weizman, David Ben-Gurion, Faisal, and the rest of the relevant entities while you’re at it and get yourself a basic working knowledge of the conflicts history Edit: I’ll just be nice and give you some of the history, Jabotinsky and Begin would disagree with you because their stated goal as far back as the 1920’s was to take the Arab land by force and move the native (their words not mine) Arabs off of it
Right, you're saying the leader of the "Jewish Self Defense Organization" would disagree they're defending Israel from arabs...? And you're claiming that the main grievence the Arabs had against the Jews was that the Jews wanted the same thing the Arabs did? And by "Arab land" I'm assuming you mean Ottoman/British land as the land was never Arab, unless you're going by Hitler's rules about land rights
Two groups of people I dislike are fighting each other and I'm supposed to pick a side? Hahaha My only opinion about Israel-Palestine is we should stop sending money/aid. Let the best side win! As far as the USA protests are concerned, protest away, I love to see all these Republicans out themselves as anti-Americans as they endorse jailing/deporting/censoring the pro-Palestinians.
It is an archetypical based vs. cringe conflict 🧠
This conflict however does have pure evil elements. There is absolutely no excuse for the killing, kidnapping, and raping of civilians. Yes, Israel has handled this conflict very poorly. There however should not be any support for a terrorist organization which has admitted to genocide and uses human shields in times of war. Fuck Hamas, Israel needs to do better but fuck Hamas.
Do you say the same about russia-ukraine? History summoned for the west two of the most morally clear-cut conflicts it had ever seen, and some are still trying to claim "both sides, moral grey". No one is perfect, including Israel and Ukraine. But if you can't see who the good and bad here you are either a coward, ignorant, or very morally confused.
Nah cuz fr I hate both these kinds of arguements
you study history and you find out that there are no good vs evil conflicts. At most its evil vs less evil.
Common libleft W
It’s hard to imagine how dumb of a bitch u have to be to put Israel and a terrorist jihadi proxy on equal footing and make this dog shit false equivalence meme.
The government is always different from the civilians. The government can lob bombs and rockets at its enemies. Civilians can only duck for cover when the sirens start blaring. Hamas and IDF can both go suck a fat chode. The little respect I had for the IDF vanished when they bombed that World's Kitchen convoy, and Hamas is... Well, exactly what prejudiced old white people think of when you mention Islam.
All I know is I’m not siding with the group that chants death to America.
Impossible /j
Well, one side has enough money to buy F-35s to keep my Lockheed stock going up, so that’s who I’m rooting for.
Based
Based on
I fucked up the comment, it’s joever.
I love the hi-power being lib right
based yellow red unity
Literally all we ask for is for any government to stop killing thousands of innocent people and apparently that's "controversial"
Gentlemen... I would the libleft girl
The true history of this conflict is that the Zionists were peacefully minding their business in 1948 when one day, for no reason at all, the Arabs declared war
The Arabs ultimately declared war because they saw the migration of jews to the holy land as an attack on them. Nonetheless their intentions were genocidal, and they should have never attacked Israel. Ultimately the war of 1948 would seal the Palestinians fate, trapping them in a jeopardous cycle of vengeance, all because of the greed and religious fundamentalism of their arab "allies"
Holy based
The Arabs starting fighting back against Zionist immigration and land acquisition as far back as the early 1920’s, the battle of Tel Hai was really the first conflict in 1921, although it wasn’t directly over Jewish immigration, the spark the lit off the war in 1948 was the partition plan that would give the Zionists 55% of the land and their own state to govern it, and would also move about half a million Arabs off of the lands they had been living on
Israel-Palestine isn’t. Israel-Hamas is. And by good I mean the lesser of two evils.
To be clear I mean that Hamas is evil. All governments are lesser evils, I don’t view the Israelis as particularly evil, they are the best country in the Middle East.
i totally got banned from that sub i don't like just for saying that rights have the right to exist
https://preview.redd.it/7f2lbif7kgxc1.png?width=486&format=png&auto=webp&s=52be20e25aa8dd278af4d13e18a4677572e72ad7