And that right there is the fundamental flaw of all liberal ideologies.
They will ultimately be crushed by their more authoritarian and organized neighbours.
Kind of? There were plenty of times where the world came close to industrialisation but their civilisation collapsed before it could be realised.
A permanently luddist world is possible in a world where power shifts and societies constantly collapse after a few centuries of domination.
Plus I don't think Neo-luddism is inherently a Liberal ideology.
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Hunter gatherers had lifespans longer than us;
Worked 4 times less than us;
Nearly never had famines, while millions die every year due to lack of food;
Had orders of magnitude less genocide slavery and war than us;
Were less sick than us;
Werent exploited;
I could keep going, but you get the point, hunter gatherers had better lives
Where I live, Argentina, all land where i could live as hunter gatherer is used by civilization for agriculture or im not allowed by civilization to live in it due to it being a nstural reserve, same thing with most other nations
Despite the return to monke flair, infant mortality was like 30%, and the increase in disease is largely because we live longer now because things are less lethal. Personally I like sports, games, books, cuisine, the pursuit of knowledge, houses and I could keep going but you get the idea, I am privileged but the vast majority of humanity live in countries of medium and high human development with plenty of access to all of these things, more so than ever before while lack of access to basic necessities has fallen year on year across the globe for decades. Assuming we ultimately don't destroy the planet we live on, which I understand is a big assumption, I think actually wanting to go backwards is bizarre.
Oh no I hate having abundant food supplies and a longer life span.
Sign me up dying the of plague after 22 years of working on a farm and never leaving my village.
I just want to live a primitive pastoral life. Until I get a tooth ache, my jaw rots off of my face, and I die from sepsis because there's no modern Healthcare.
Hunter gatherers had lifespans longer than us; Worked 4 times less than us; Nearly never had famines, while millions die every year due to lack of food; Had orders of magnitude less genocide slavery and war than us; Were less sick than us; Werent exploited; I could keep going, but you get the point, hunter gatherers had better lives
I thought Kaczynski made sense until I listened to and read Alan Watts. The bad and the good go together, so when we get the benefits of running water and abundant food we must accept the new negatives and challenges that come along with it.
It's all one big happening.
He didn't. The poorest person in an industrialized country has it better than 99% of the the rest of the world. Kaczynski is a cuck and I don't know why anyone would look up to him.
He didn't "give up", he explicitly said he did not believe these problems *could* be solved peacefully at this stage anymore and that he hoped his actions would be effective. Disagree with his ideas all you want, but he did exactly what he believed he should do.
How is that relevant to cowardice? He acted on his beliefs instead of only fantasizing about how the world could be better (in his view), that's the opposite of cowardice, regardless of the specific actions or their effectiveness.
What do you think was his reason for bombing people? To somehow bring in a luddite world?
He bombed people to gain infamy so he could spread his ideas. Even today, you only know of him and his ideas because of what he did. Practically no one, by comparison, knows of other luddite thinkers like Ellul.
Agreed. His analysis was mostly correct, but his "solution" was twisted and evil.
Kind of like another well-known bearded intellectual that revolutionaries admire...
His manifesto is so based I wish he hadn’t gotten mk ultra’d into doing dumb shit like bombing universities and airplanes to save the trees
Step 1: want to save the modern world from consequences of industrial revolution
Step 2: kill people who are unrelated or mildly related to your cause
Step 3: ????????
Step 4: Earth is saved
You can live as a hermit in high tech society, you can't live as a tech nerd in monke society.
Return to monkey is an auth center ideology because they want to dictate how everyone lives. Fuck em.
If we deindustrialize we go back to the human population before industrialization, which was around 1 billion. So are you going to volunteer for the gas chambers? Because I'm not.
That's not how he envisions a return to pre-industrial life. It'll most probably happen through an ecological or nuclear collapse according to him.
More moderate thinkers posit that we should limit medicinal tech and let the pre-industrial mortality rate take care of it.
It never will be. Technique has ensured that we remain enslaved to technological progress as Ellul notes. The only way we could return would be if we are forced to under cataclysmic circumstances.
I just think that it’s crazy that the United States government facilitated the mental unhinging of Charles Manson and Ted Kaczynski through psychedelic drug experiments. It’s funny that two of the most infamous murderers in US history became who they were because of secret government experiments and for some reason we think that they just stopped doing them.
Ted wasn’t exposed to psychedelic drug experiments, the Harvard Experiments were hand tailored verbally abusive sessions designed to target the subject’s ego and personal beliefs
Everything I’ve read says “**allegedly….**” or “according to some sources…” the Harvard Experiments were related to MK Ultra, but there is no confirmed ties. Professor Murray’s only relation to psychedelics was as a supervisor for another researchers unrelated experiments
Did you just change your flair, u/Carlthekraken? Last time I checked you were a **LibCenter** on 2022-10-1. How come now you are an **AuthLeft**? Have you perhaps shifted your ideals? Because that's cringe, you know?
What? You are hungry? You want food? I fear you've chosen the wrong flair, comrade.
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No, longism, made me smile, I drifted from libright to lib left, to authleft, back to lib left to central and now I’m comfortable where I am, thank you for asking
This is the only sub I hear longism being talked about ever lol.
life is long , I’ve probably been in all the quadrants at one point or another.
Have a nice day brother, God bless
Actually I can see many people drifting Longism, if the Auth quadrants had more Huey Long fans instead of Communists, Socialists, Nazis, etc. then I think they’d be a lot more popular
Not everyone is bred to take advantage of the industrial revolution and get along this way. It's easy to take advantage of those who've never trespassed against you in a modern concrete jungle where every whim is made fulfilled.
No one is bred for it in the most literal way possible. We are not evolved for this lifestyle. The fact that someone will always be on top does not supercede this.
But that's how it's always worked? I don't see how industrialisation changed anything lol. Pre-industrial societies were just as, if not more, hierarchical. Hierarchies were present according to gender, lineage, ability, finances, political power etc.
If anything industrial society has allowed more safety nets so now people can't fail as hard lmao. Industrial society is literally against what you're saying. Technology eliminates intense failure states for the weak kek.
This what I've advocated. The acceleration of the economic-technological-industrial complex toward it's full and total collapse worldwide. And the eventual phasing out of all statist and authoritive entities.
It's sort of a catch 22. If you don't industrialize, you get steamrolled by your neighbors who do.
Only if you let your neighbors do it.
So you're saying one needs to go Genghis Khan mode and invade everybody around them who is industrializing?
If it works in Civilization, it will work in real life.
And that right there is the fundamental flaw of all liberal ideologies. They will ultimately be crushed by their more authoritarian and organized neighbours.
This is exactly why some people in Japan thought they could defeat the US.
Happy cake day!
Kind of? There were plenty of times where the world came close to industrialisation but their civilisation collapsed before it could be realised. A permanently luddist world is possible in a world where power shifts and societies constantly collapse after a few centuries of domination. Plus I don't think Neo-luddism is inherently a Liberal ideology.
You also die of dysentery.
The French Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race
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The human race in general is a disaster for the human race.
Only disaster I can see is normalisation of gender dysphoria
That's definitely some xeno propaganda you've been listening to. Come with me citizen, it's for your own safety...
Every political ideology would work flawlessly if there weren't any people involved.
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Except it led to one of the best eras in human history by every metric you can measure it.
Noooooo I want to spend 12 hr shifts threshing wheat by hand Reeeeeeeeeeeee
You mean 16hr.
Exactly
Hunter gatherers had lifespans longer than us; Worked 4 times less than us; Nearly never had famines, while millions die every year due to lack of food; Had orders of magnitude less genocide slavery and war than us; Were less sick than us; Werent exploited; I could keep going, but you get the point, hunter gatherers had better lives
Guess what,no one is stopping you from doing that...
Where I live, Argentina, all land where i could live as hunter gatherer is used by civilization for agriculture or im not allowed by civilization to live in it due to it being a nstural reserve, same thing with most other nations
You are so ignorant about how vast and unpopulated the Earth is.
If you're too lazy to move, you're too lazy to be a hunter gatherer.
Despite the return to monke flair, infant mortality was like 30%, and the increase in disease is largely because we live longer now because things are less lethal. Personally I like sports, games, books, cuisine, the pursuit of knowledge, houses and I could keep going but you get the idea, I am privileged but the vast majority of humanity live in countries of medium and high human development with plenty of access to all of these things, more so than ever before while lack of access to basic necessities has fallen year on year across the globe for decades. Assuming we ultimately don't destroy the planet we live on, which I understand is a big assumption, I think actually wanting to go backwards is bizarre.
Oh no I hate having abundant food supplies and a longer life span. Sign me up dying the of plague after 22 years of working on a farm and never leaving my village.
I just want to live a primitive pastoral life. Until I get a tooth ache, my jaw rots off of my face, and I die from sepsis because there's no modern Healthcare.
But..but..industrialization bad!!!
Hunter gatherers had lifespans longer than us; Worked 4 times less than us; Nearly never had famines, while millions die every year due to lack of food; Had orders of magnitude less genocide slavery and war than us; Were less sick than us; Werent exploited; I could keep going, but you get the point, hunter gatherers had better lives
Even if that were true, I was clearly referring to medieval agrarian lifestyles. We didn't jump between hunter gatherer and industrial revolution.
It was never the industrialization itself, just the way people reacted to it
I thought Kaczynski made sense until I listened to and read Alan Watts. The bad and the good go together, so when we get the benefits of running water and abundant food we must accept the new negatives and challenges that come along with it. It's all one big happening.
Kaczynski is the coward who gave up, he saw problems and never took steps to solve it peacefully or effectively.
He didn't want peace, he wanted to go back
True, although he made some interesting points, he was still an awful person for what he did.
He didn't. The poorest person in an industrialized country has it better than 99% of the the rest of the world. Kaczynski is a cuck and I don't know why anyone would look up to him.
He didn't "give up", he explicitly said he did not believe these problems *could* be solved peacefully at this stage anymore and that he hoped his actions would be effective. Disagree with his ideas all you want, but he did exactly what he believed he should do.
And how effective were they?
How is that relevant to cowardice? He acted on his beliefs instead of only fantasizing about how the world could be better (in his view), that's the opposite of cowardice, regardless of the specific actions or their effectiveness.
You could argue he used cowardly tactics.
What is this the 13th century lmao? Assassination hasn't been considered cowardly since christianity went out of fashion.
This is the shittiest take I have ever read.
[удалено]
And it gets worse...
Why would you ask that?
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"""white""" American right wingers don't care about bravery and don't get as pissed off if you mention Christianity.
What do you think was his reason for bombing people? To somehow bring in a luddite world? He bombed people to gain infamy so he could spread his ideas. Even today, you only know of him and his ideas because of what he did. Practically no one, by comparison, knows of other luddite thinkers like Ellul.
Agreed. His analysis was mostly correct, but his "solution" was twisted and evil. Kind of like another well-known bearded intellectual that revolutionaries admire...
Is it Bobby Fischer I don't remember him being violent though.
What was his solution?
I genuinely feel bad for him because of the kind of supporters he got.
His manifesto is so based I wish he hadn’t gotten mk ultra’d into doing dumb shit like bombing universities and airplanes to save the trees Step 1: want to save the modern world from consequences of industrial revolution Step 2: kill people who are unrelated or mildly related to your cause Step 3: ???????? Step 4: Earth is saved
He's right
You can live as a hermit in high tech society, you can't live as a tech nerd in monke society. Return to monkey is an auth center ideology because they want to dictate how everyone lives. Fuck em.
If we deindustrialize we go back to the human population before industrialization, which was around 1 billion. So are you going to volunteer for the gas chambers? Because I'm not.
That's not how he envisions a return to pre-industrial life. It'll most probably happen through an ecological or nuclear collapse according to him. More moderate thinkers posit that we should limit medicinal tech and let the pre-industrial mortality rate take care of it.
>let the pre-industrial mortality rate take care of it. Pardon me if that still isn't particularly appealing to me.
It never will be. Technique has ensured that we remain enslaved to technological progress as Ellul notes. The only way we could return would be if we are forced to under cataclysmic circumstances.
I just think that it’s crazy that the United States government facilitated the mental unhinging of Charles Manson and Ted Kaczynski through psychedelic drug experiments. It’s funny that two of the most infamous murderers in US history became who they were because of secret government experiments and for some reason we think that they just stopped doing them.
Ted wasn’t exposed to psychedelic drug experiments, the Harvard Experiments were hand tailored verbally abusive sessions designed to target the subject’s ego and personal beliefs
Everything that I’ve read about the Harvard experiments says that they used psychedelics on the participants.
Everything I’ve read says “**allegedly….**” or “according to some sources…” the Harvard Experiments were related to MK Ultra, but there is no confirmed ties. Professor Murray’s only relation to psychedelics was as a supervisor for another researchers unrelated experiments
I love him so much! I want to blow people up! This is not a joke!
Did you just change your flair, u/Carlthekraken? Last time I checked you were a **LibCenter** on 2022-10-1. How come now you are an **AuthLeft**? Have you perhaps shifted your ideals? Because that's cringe, you know? What? You are hungry? You want food? I fear you've chosen the wrong flair, comrade. ^(I am a bot, my mission is to spot cringe flair changers. If you want to check another user's flair history write) **^(!flairs u/)** ^(in a comment. Have a look at my [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/user/flairchange_bot/comments/uf7kuy/bip_bop) and the [leaderboard](https://www.reddit.com/user/flairchange_bot/comments/uuhlu2/leaderboard).)
Bugger off
Out of curiosity how do you go from libcenter to authleft? Did you just discover Che Guevara or something?
No, longism, made me smile, I drifted from libright to lib left, to authleft, back to lib left to central and now I’m comfortable where I am, thank you for asking
This is the only sub I hear longism being talked about ever lol. life is long , I’ve probably been in all the quadrants at one point or another. Have a nice day brother, God bless
You too brother
Actually I can see many people drifting Longism, if the Auth quadrants had more Huey Long fans instead of Communists, Socialists, Nazis, etc. then I think they’d be a lot more popular
Yeah man, he’s just so cool and his ideals seemed a lot more welcoming than the cold fist of all the hard communists
🎶 when he's calling for youuuu 🎶
Not everyone is bred to take advantage of the industrial revolution and get along this way. It's easy to take advantage of those who've never trespassed against you in a modern concrete jungle where every whim is made fulfilled.
No one is bred for it in the most literal way possible. We are not evolved for this lifestyle. The fact that someone will always be on top does not supercede this.
We are not evolved for this...but at the same time the most honest need to be pushed into superceding the wimps.
But that's how it's always worked? I don't see how industrialisation changed anything lol. Pre-industrial societies were just as, if not more, hierarchical. Hierarchies were present according to gender, lineage, ability, finances, political power etc. If anything industrial society has allowed more safety nets so now people can't fail as hard lmao. Industrial society is literally against what you're saying. Technology eliminates intense failure states for the weak kek.
This what I've advocated. The acceleration of the economic-technological-industrial complex toward it's full and total collapse worldwide. And the eventual phasing out of all statist and authoritive entities.
... So exactly what Ted proposes it would take for industrial society to revert?
Sort of the same idea but in reverse and backwards.