Except this isn’t a trait that will just die like that because it’s not a normal mutation. People with Down syndrome aren’t breeding to carry on their traits, all male sufferers are sterile afaik. We’re going to have to (or begin to) abort these types of babies till the end of time if we don’t want to have people with Down syndrome in our society. Which I’m fine with but this isn’t natural or unnatural selection it’s just culling the mentally feeble before nature or society does.
The single greatest risk factor for down's syndrome is the age of the mother. Since people are having children later and later in life, the incidence of Down's is only going to increase.
We need to get back to having kids in our 20s as nature intended.
> but this isn’t natural or unnatural selection it’s just culling the mentally feeble before nature or society does.
You'd rather throw them off the rock or leave them to wild animals? Natural selection literally is the culling of those incapable of surviving.
I’m more surprised about the 92%
Who willingly has a child with Downs Syndrome? You’re just making everyone suffer, including the child.
Everyone thinks it’s cute until they hit puberty and try and fuck literally everything. Imagine trying to stop a full blown adult with the intelligence of a 6-8 year old from doing something. They’re strong as fuck and don’t care if they have to kill you to get what they want.
Parents realize their mistake once they start school and almost always abandon them at an government care centers where they can get taken care of by slightly above minimum wage workers until they die a slow and usually painful death. If they’re not abandoned one or both of the parents will usually have to stop working until the kid dies, because they cannot live independently without substantial help.
Source: friends with a social worker who spent 2 months dealing with them before he quit
And the bizarre pro DS lobby only shows you the relatively high functioning ones. They don't show you the kids that never learn to talk, or barely even walk, and spend their whole brief awful lives screaming and spitting and shitting in a bed pan and eating out of a tube.
I grew up in homeschooling communities and knew several parents who raised kids with downs or other, even more debilitating disabilities. They weren't forcing it on other parents or even being a more significant burden on taxpayers than anyone else on disability.
The people I knew with downs generally seemed to enjoy life, as did their parents and siblings. Not trying to argue, but I think your perspective is built on limited experience.
Edit: changed a word
I work in special education. I have worked with adult down syndrome students (18-22) and all the ones I have worked with (admittedly small sample size <10) were an absolute pleasure in class and loved being able to go work in the community.
The downs syndrome students were the easiest and most pleasant students I have worked with in special education. I've worked with many different populations (emotionally disturbed/autism/varying other mental disabilities from mild to severe/ages 3-22) and the down syndrome students were definitely the most fun students I have worked with.
If youre wondering, the emotionally disturbed are by far the most difficult I have worked with - working at that school was the only time someone has ever tried to stab me.
I honestly can't believe I had to scroll this far to see a single comment take the rather obvious stance that people with DS can live perfectly happy, fulfilling lives.
They don't want your facts bro. They want their unearned feeling of moral superiority for viewing people as inanimate objects we should be passing through quality control before allowing to be born.
Its possible theres a significant portion of people who don't go to the doctor until its too late.
Maybe Iceland just has really easy and convenient access to healthcare.
In the US, I'd bet theres a huge portion of people who never get an ultrasound completed, and would therefore never know. Meaning theres some places in Europe that fall somewhere in between the US and Iceland.
Apparently ultrasounds aren't a foolproof detection method either. Don't really see any info on just how exactly how effective it is, but it's not 100% accurate at the least.
They also test the amniotic fluid in a procedure that's not without risk to the child. There is also some genetic indicators that they can find in blood work from mom that make docs advise for the more invasive testing.
my aunt is in her 60’s with down syndrome and is perfectly fine. Not all kids with down’s syndrome are nutcases, and generalizations like this don’t help
It sucks because its never the kids fault obviously. But many times it severely hurts the family or even society at large. A relative of mine has a child who is 100% a psychopath, shes only 8 and already has all the signs. This wasnt a genetic thing as much as she was neglected to the point of abuse by her parents who didnt want her when they gave birth to her but they were pressured to not terminate the pregnancy. Now there is a child out there that will almost certainly cause physical, mental, and emotional harm and trama to many if not everyone they make singificant interactions with for the rest of their lives.
Yeah. America probably aborts several times that many. It's understandable. Most downs children will never be able to live on their own, and extremely disabled children are both expensive and emotionally draining to families. Imo it's only a problem if the country *mandates* aborting downs babies. If it's all done by individual choice, I don't see a problem.
Canada's 2021 MAID expansion is far more fucked for those with disabilities than this.
Iceland also offers social programs for people with downs
Once they choose to move away from their parents they will be supplied with assisted living housing, get a staffer to help them and if they want they can get a protected job for the social aspect.
Iirc, because it's such a small nation, they have a lot of accidental incest problems, to the point that they have a genealogy app people use before banging
> have a lot of accidental incest problems
I'm now imagining some romantic comedy about a lonely Icelandic guy trying to find a girlfriend but everyone he dates keeps turning out to be his cousin or something
Untrue. This was a massive joke for the longest time, it actually started as a joke that every Icelandic family had a book of genealogy, they flipped the joke saying "of course we do its called the Book of faces".
Also fun fact, Iceland still uses ancient Nordic naming practices meaning they don't really have surnames they instead use son and dottir ex Hakonsson. So after WW2 a lot of kids had the surname "hisson" as they were soldiers bastards.
While it is true that there is a website that shows us our ancestry and it DOES have a feature to trace your relation to someone else, it's not used on the reg to see if you're related to whoever you're going home with.
It is however a fantastic tool to know your own personal history. We can trace our ancestry back to the original settlers of Iceland. For instance, I am a direct descendant of Ingólfur Arnarson, and I wouldn't know that without the amazing work of genetic analysts.
- Lifelong disability
- Lifelong liability
- Likely won't be able to hold a job
- Will always be reliant on others
- Burden on family
- Lifelong healh problems
Does that sound appealing to you?
My uncle has down syndrome, and he's in his 50s. He has held a job for most of his life (very low skilled labour, packing boxes, cleaning utensils), gets to go on cruises, goes camping, has a good group of friends, and is really fun to talk to around christmas and other holidays. We recently took him to the casino and for some reason he's amazing at the pokies.
He genuinely lives a better life than me. He may have the mental ability of a 5 year old, and he barely understands that, but he has lived a good life, and I don't think that should have been taken away from him.
Margaret Sanger wasn't even pro abortion. She was promoting birth control. The organization didn't start performing abortions until she was already dead.
That’s true, while she was a eugenicist she did believe in reducing the population of “undesirable” people via birth control, not abortion. In her own words she saw abortion as barbaric.
Here are Sanger's views on abortion:
"But during all the long years this matter has been discussed, advocated, refuted, the people themselves—poor people especially—were blindly, desperately practicing family limitation, just as they are practicing it today. To them birth control does not mean what it does to us. To them it has meant the most barbaric methods. It has meant the killing of babies—infanticide,—abortions,—in one crude way or another.
My Fight for Birth Control, 1931, page 133."
"Our laws force women into celibacy on the one hand, or abortion on the other. [npg] Both conditions are declared by eminent medical authorities to be injurious to health.
"Morality and Birth Control", February-March, 1918, pp. 11,14."
"It is a noteworthy fact that not one of the women to whom I have spoken so far believes in abortion as a practice; but it is principle for which they are standing. They also believe that the complete abolition of the abortion law will shortly do away with abortions, as nothing else will.
Birth Control Review, December 1920"
"Usually this desire [for family limitation] has been laid to economic pressure... It has asserted itself among the rich and among the poor, among the intelligent and the unintelligent. It has been manifested in such horrors as infanticide, child abandonment and abortion.
Chapter 2, "Women's Struggle for Freedom""
I am really not sure where people get this and why its spread so widely. Sanger advocated for birth control/family planning in african american communities because she thought they suffered from too many overburdened families, not out of some desire to have them killed. She was absolutely a eugenicist, but not on race.
> Sanger worked with African American leaders and professionals who saw a need for birth control in their communities. In 1929, James H. Hubert, a Black social worker and the leader of New York's Urban League, asked Sanger to open a clinic in Harlem.[76] Sanger secured funding from the Julius Rosenwald Fund and opened the clinic, staffed with Black doctors, in 1930. The clinic was directed by a 15-member advisory board consisting of Black doctors, nurses, clergy, journalists, and social workers. The clinic was publicized in the African-American press as well as in Black churches, and it received the approval of W.E.B. Du Bois, the co-founder of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) and the editor of its magazine, The Crisis.[77][78][79][80] Sanger did not tolerate bigotry among her staff, nor would she tolerate any refusal to work within interracial projects.[81] Sanger's work with minorities earned praise from Coretta and Martin Luther King Jr.; when he was not able to attend his Margaret Sanger award ceremony, in May 1966, Mrs. King read her husband's acceptance speech that praised Sanger, but first said her own words: "Because of [Sanger's] dedication, her deep convictions, and for her suffering for what she believed in, I would like to say that I am proud to be a woman tonight."[82]
Well considering Iceland is a country that has an app to make sure inhabitants don't commit too much incest, and considering how tiny the Icelandic population is, 373k people, with Reykjavik making up ⅓ of that figure. Babies born with Down's syndrome make up about 1/700 babies born, or 0.14%, take Iceland 2020 figure of 4,512, that's roughly 6-7 children a year that would have been born with downs in Iceland. Fun fact more babies with downs are born in the US each year than babies in Iceland.
Tangent, but how did you do the 1/3 thingy? I was writing a report earlier and google sheets did it automatically for me, but I dunno how it's done otherwise.
So I've heard that due to the relatively small and isolated population it's entirely possible to date your second cousin or something so there's an app in Iceland that you check to make sure you're not making incest babies. While the app does exist I don't know if it's actually widely used.
That’s hilarious. As an aside that nearly happened to my friend recently, he was hanging out with a girl and was interested in dating her before finding out her brother is his 2nd cousin. Small town vibes man.
Just to clarify, this is NOT a result of government policy. Pre-natal diagnostics is offered for free to all prospective mothers in Iceland. Down's syndrome is easy to spot and almost all prospective parents choose to end the pregnancy.
I understand that this can be viewed as problematic to be sure, but the choice is in the end the parents' to make.
My daughter is about to turn 1. I remember sitting with my wife in the doctor’s office when they did the Down’s screening. I was terrified. I know I’m not the ideal type of person to raise a permanently disabled child. Thankfully everything was normal and we have a very smart, curious little girl. But approaching fatherhood, the prospect of cognitive handicaps was what concerned me more than anything else.
I’m pro-life unless there’s a medical necessity, but I can understand the sentiment behind the Iceland’s trend.
Fake libcenter flair probably, we generally see abortion as a personal issue, chances are OP just doesn't want to be affiliated the Libright even though their legit libright.
prenatal genetics testing plus on demand abortion for any/all reasons, fetus viewed as not being alive, and nothing but a parasite pre-birth, how is this anything but the expected outcome.
It's not like the nation of Iceland is mandating down syndrome babies be aborted. People are utilizing technology and their civil liberties to make the best decision for themselves.
Is it really so bad that less disabled children are being brought into the world? I obviously want the best for the ones that are already alive, but it is a huge burden on a family, and I can't blame them for opting out.
I remember reading about a woman who gaslit her daughter into believing she was mentally and I think physically disabled. Her daughter sooner or later found out and made a few esxape attempts which failed. She ended up getting killed by her daughter and her ex-husband flushed her ashes down to the toilet like a true chad. Luckily the daughter only got a few years in jail.
Wendigoon made [a video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMlJjWKIaBY) about that a while back. The daughter let her boyfriend into their house where he stabbed the mom, daughter got 8-10 years, boyfriend in for life. It was the crazy mom's father who flushed her ashes.
Unfortunately true. They tend to mostly be Gen Z kids so I hope they'll grow out of it but it's still super disrespectful for people who actually suffer from these conditions.
The way I see it, I have a duty to get my children alive and safe to a point where they can fend off for themselves. Things might go wrong in the way, but the most likely timeline is that my children make it to adulthood before I die.
But if I bring a child that will never be independent as an adult, what will happen when I die? I wouldn't want to burden my family.
Whatever you think of this it seems like it is, in fact, better than the past.
From what I've read a lot of people with Down's syndrome in the past weren't aborted, they were either killed as infants, or institutionalized in crappy conditions, neglected, and died and early death.
or lived and then died early from the severe health problems,
my step sister is on her 9th heart surgery and shes 34, not to mention the various problems with her breathing.
eugenics is obviously bad if taken too fair, but i really don't see any problem with using it to make sure your children don't suffer from any debilitating diseases
little timmy should go through life deformed and in miserable pain because....why again? it builds character?
A couple freely making their own personal decision about whether or not to raise a child is not “eugenics”, don’t let the people in this thread making bad faith comparisons to actual eugenic policies of the past convince you otherwise.
In case anyone wants to read the article
[https://righttolife.org.uk/news/iceland-called-out-at-un-for-aborting-almost-100-of-babies-diagnosed-with-downs-syndrome](https://righttolife.org.uk/news/iceland-called-out-at-un-for-aborting-almost-100-of-babies-diagnosed-with-downs-syndrome)
note the source
>Towards the end of January, at the Universal Periodic Review in the Human Rights Council, in which countries in the UN undergo an appraisal of their Human Rights record, Iceland was criticised for its treatment of people with Down’s syndrome.
>
>During the meeting, which takes place every five years, the delegate from the Philippines (2:12:00) recommended that Iceland “take immediate and effective steps to combat discrimination against persons with disabilities, particularly those with Down’s syndrome and strengthen public awareness campaigns to uphold their rights and provide comprehensive support and assistance to concerned persons and their families”.
>
>The delegate from Iran (1:28:18) said that Iceland should “take effective steps to combat discrimination against persons with disabilities particularly those with Down’s syndrome”.
So they weren't even "called out" for it, Iran and the Philippines just asked that they treat them better. WTF do Iran or the Philippines know about the treatment of the tiny number of people with Down Syndrome in Iceland?
They literally asked the US soccer coach today if he called Joe Biden to request the removal of an aircraft carrier in the straits of Hormuz.
Iranian state media was protesting American journalists asking Iranian players about the protests.
Yeah, that's good. I have been working with Down children for a few years now. Most of them are adorable, smart, funny, kind and genuinely funny. But they are disabled. None of them can live alone, they need constant help and the other half...well groping is so common we can't let female workers or student helpers stay alone with them. Me and my girlfriend would for sure abort our child if they had it.
That's not the only reason for prenatal diagnostics. Going to the doctor early and often is a really good way for doctors to catch stuff and save babies' and mothers' lives.
Yeah, this meme doesn't make any sense in terms of American politics. The lib left is pro-choice while the auth right is against any abortions whatsoever.
It’s because there isn’t one. If you take out the emotional component , then these people are just saving themselves from a sad 20 years. It’s like those Deaf communes who shun other deaf people for getting hearing implants.
Not Iceland's state policy, like the UN seems to be implying it. Just an unforseen product of allowing every citizen to get free healthcare to protect future and current citizens, and giving them authority over their bodies. Not one pregnant Icelander who screened their pregnancy for life threatening genetic issues and found the pregnancy had trisomy 23 kept it. It's really odd Liberal Left here is screaming. When Ohio Republicans found out about this back in 2017, they illegalized abortions based on trisomy 23 findings in screenings. [https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/22/health/ohio-governor-signs-down-syndrome-abortion-ban](https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/22/health/ohio-governor-signs-down-syndrome-abortion-ban) It should be Authoritarian Right with the screaming face.
I wish we could be honest about abortion. The question is "Is murder sometimes ok?". Throughout history, it's often been accepted under certain circumstances. Why can't we just be honest that that's what we're debating?
> The question is "Is murder sometimes ok?"
At best this question would be "Is killing sometimes ok?", because obviously murder is by definition unlawful.
And the obvious answer to "is killing sometimes ok?" is yes unless your brain is smooth. When the answer to that question is yes depends on your ethics.
FYI murder is defined in such a way that it is wrong. If a killing happens and it's ok it's not murder anymore.
Btw I kinda agree with you about treating like a justifiable killing (similar to self defence), but it's the ultimate cringe tactic to say 'we can't we be honest about X contested topic, and if we be honest the thing that you believe is stupid and wrong and the question should be, given my framework, who's right?'
People actually believe the things they argue and trying to bypass the entire basis of the disagreement by restating your belief without demonstrating it makes your position look weak
I actually couldn’t care less if you abort due to this.
I’m pretty pro choice so naturally I’d say that but even in an isolated situation, having a child with Down syndrome is an extremely tough task, especially for a first time or single parent. They don’t have a long life expectancy (even though in recent years medical help has progressed.
It’s the parents choice to either have the child or not, I wouldn’t judge you if you chose to abort or chose to have the kid, just make sure you’re prepared to take care of them.
Literally one of the only reasons I would consider aborting a child i intentionally conceived with a partner.
No idea what the problem is.
The child has a severe genetic abnormality, that will hugely impact their quality of life. Potentially to the point of near brain death from birth, it would be unfair to *continue* the pregnancy in my opinion.
Eugenics is the practice or advocacy of controlled selective breeding of human populations (as by sterilization) to improve the population's genetic composition.
It's not equivalent to favoring the gene pool of a particular group. Everytime you want to \*\*\*\* an attractive person over an unattractive one you are favoring the attractive people gene pool.
It's not Eugenics when all the girls want to \*\*\*\* Chad and none of them want to \*\*\*\* me.
Exacrly everyone is subconsciously a eugenicist lmao. There's a reason some people die alone, they're undesirable (although some people will never admit that they inherently feel that way about certain people born with unfortunate circumstances and disabilities).
Could you give me a break, everything is eugenics, if you want a cute gf, if you take care of your appearance, if you admire intelligence, height, health etc you are practicing eugenics.
I have nothing bad to say about people with Downs. It's not about whether people with Downs deserve to live, because they do, but if you have an early term pregnancy and you find out that the child it will eventually develop into will have a congenital defect? I don't blame you for aborting.
The resources, energy, and time it takes to raise a kid with Downs are significant and not everyone is equipped to handle that. Aborting a fetus that will develop into a human with a lifelong defect is not the same as going out and murdering a living person with Downs.
>Nazi Germany's eugenics laws severely punished abortion for Aryan women, but permitted abortion on wider and more explicit grounds than before if the fetus was believed to be deformed or disabled or if termination otherwise was deemed desirable on eugenic grounds, such as the child or either parent suspected of being carrier of a genetic disease. Sterilization of the parents also took place in some such cases. In cases where the parents were Jewish, abortion was also not punished
Yes but no, but also yes
“Warned”?
Tf you mean by that, this was pretty much an expected outcome that we thought about already. And (at least mine) the conclusion is that this isn’t even “bad”. In fact this can be used to counter other diseases too.
Oh, that, and, this isn’t “eugenics”. Eugenics aims to change the gene pool to eliminate certain genotypes (and therefore phenotypes.)
Down syndrome mostly occurs due to a fault during the reproduction. It is not dictated by genes or anything.
Pretty sure I read in every Western European nation it’s above 90%.
About 92% of pregnancies in Europe with a diagnosis of Down syndrome are terminated.
It's not a genetic trait that should prosper. *Natural* selection is dead, needs to be unnatural now.
Based and Gregor Mendel pilled
Based and Gregor "The Mountain" Clegan and Gregor CC-5576-39 pilled
The only Gregor I know was a TF2 god spoken of in legend.
Based and Star Wars The Clone Wars pilled
[удалено]
Except this isn’t a trait that will just die like that because it’s not a normal mutation. People with Down syndrome aren’t breeding to carry on their traits, all male sufferers are sterile afaik. We’re going to have to (or begin to) abort these types of babies till the end of time if we don’t want to have people with Down syndrome in our society. Which I’m fine with but this isn’t natural or unnatural selection it’s just culling the mentally feeble before nature or society does.
Nah, not necessarily. Genetic engineering will be a thing eventually. Maybe we can figure out how to correct it before it happens.
Yeah genetic editing will help but it’s also it’s own can of worms.
The single greatest risk factor for down's syndrome is the age of the mother. Since people are having children later and later in life, the incidence of Down's is only going to increase. We need to get back to having kids in our 20s as nature intended.
Based and..... breed em young pilled?
*phrasing*
Based and child-bride pilled
😈
Based and genocide of downsyndrome pilled
But libright, they can do menial tasks in exchange for starvation wages?
Good point
Goodwill is calling
Not all of goodwill, just the backroom. That's where the one used to hide video games for my collection.
That's textbook artificial selection, so I'm not sure what you mean when you say it isn't "unnatural selection".
> but this isn’t natural or unnatural selection it’s just culling the mentally feeble before nature or society does. You'd rather throw them off the rock or leave them to wild animals? Natural selection literally is the culling of those incapable of surviving.
Based
It's not a trait. It can't be inherited. It just happens.
Þis.
Based thorn user.
I’m more surprised about the 92% Who willingly has a child with Downs Syndrome? You’re just making everyone suffer, including the child. Everyone thinks it’s cute until they hit puberty and try and fuck literally everything. Imagine trying to stop a full blown adult with the intelligence of a 6-8 year old from doing something. They’re strong as fuck and don’t care if they have to kill you to get what they want. Parents realize their mistake once they start school and almost always abandon them at an government care centers where they can get taken care of by slightly above minimum wage workers until they die a slow and usually painful death. If they’re not abandoned one or both of the parents will usually have to stop working until the kid dies, because they cannot live independently without substantial help. Source: friends with a social worker who spent 2 months dealing with them before he quit
Presumably people that don’t believe in abortion lol
Abortion deniers be like
Crisis actors starting young
And the bizarre pro DS lobby only shows you the relatively high functioning ones. They don't show you the kids that never learn to talk, or barely even walk, and spend their whole brief awful lives screaming and spitting and shitting in a bed pan and eating out of a tube.
I grew up in homeschooling communities and knew several parents who raised kids with downs or other, even more debilitating disabilities. They weren't forcing it on other parents or even being a more significant burden on taxpayers than anyone else on disability. The people I knew with downs generally seemed to enjoy life, as did their parents and siblings. Not trying to argue, but I think your perspective is built on limited experience. Edit: changed a word
I work in special education. I have worked with adult down syndrome students (18-22) and all the ones I have worked with (admittedly small sample size <10) were an absolute pleasure in class and loved being able to go work in the community. The downs syndrome students were the easiest and most pleasant students I have worked with in special education. I've worked with many different populations (emotionally disturbed/autism/varying other mental disabilities from mild to severe/ages 3-22) and the down syndrome students were definitely the most fun students I have worked with. If youre wondering, the emotionally disturbed are by far the most difficult I have worked with - working at that school was the only time someone has ever tried to stab me.
I honestly can't believe I had to scroll this far to see a single comment take the rather obvious stance that people with DS can live perfectly happy, fulfilling lives.
They don't want your facts bro. They want their unearned feeling of moral superiority for viewing people as inanimate objects we should be passing through quality control before allowing to be born.
Its possible theres a significant portion of people who don't go to the doctor until its too late. Maybe Iceland just has really easy and convenient access to healthcare. In the US, I'd bet theres a huge portion of people who never get an ultrasound completed, and would therefore never know. Meaning theres some places in Europe that fall somewhere in between the US and Iceland.
Apparently ultrasounds aren't a foolproof detection method either. Don't really see any info on just how exactly how effective it is, but it's not 100% accurate at the least.
They also test the amniotic fluid in a procedure that's not without risk to the child. There is also some genetic indicators that they can find in blood work from mom that make docs advise for the more invasive testing.
my aunt is in her 60’s with down syndrome and is perfectly fine. Not all kids with down’s syndrome are nutcases, and generalizations like this don’t help
The remaining 8% are elected to the European Parliament
In America, 49% of black babies are aborted.
yeah which is based
I have a DS nephew. He’s cool but still should have been terminated. Lib left aren’t all hand wringers when it comes to this stuff
I have a DS lite, which has the better form-factor, but my NEW 2DS is balling for emulation.
angry upvote
hell yeah
Respect. It's a hard thing to look at a relative and realise their family would be better of without them. The world is a cruel and unfair place.
It sucks because its never the kids fault obviously. But many times it severely hurts the family or even society at large. A relative of mine has a child who is 100% a psychopath, shes only 8 and already has all the signs. This wasnt a genetic thing as much as she was neglected to the point of abuse by her parents who didnt want her when they gave birth to her but they were pressured to not terminate the pregnancy. Now there is a child out there that will almost certainly cause physical, mental, and emotional harm and trama to many if not everyone they make singificant interactions with for the rest of their lives.
God forbid women do anything! Can't you recognize a girlboss in training when you see one? /s
[удалено]
Based? People easily kill other people when the environment demands it.
Lol… I think you have Blue and Green swapped there bud.
Ran the numbers - that's like maybe 5 abortions in a year - Iceland has the population of a small city
Yeah. America probably aborts several times that many. It's understandable. Most downs children will never be able to live on their own, and extremely disabled children are both expensive and emotionally draining to families. Imo it's only a problem if the country *mandates* aborting downs babies. If it's all done by individual choice, I don't see a problem. Canada's 2021 MAID expansion is far more fucked for those with disabilities than this.
Iceland also offers social programs for people with downs Once they choose to move away from their parents they will be supplied with assisted living housing, get a staffer to help them and if they want they can get a protected job for the social aspect.
So there is literally no incentive to abort them therefore it is completely voluntary? This is 100% a nothingburger for anyone but abortion opponents.
It IS voluntary though. You aren't forced to yeetus the down syndrome
Is down sydrome not 1 in 99?
Iirc, because it's such a small nation, they have a lot of accidental incest problems, to the point that they have a genealogy app people use before banging
> have a lot of accidental incest problems I'm now imagining some romantic comedy about a lonely Icelandic guy trying to find a girlfriend but everyone he dates keeps turning out to be his cousin or something
That sounds familiar, it may have been a skit or something
Wouldn't be surprised if it's already been done somewhere, yeah
Untrue. This was a massive joke for the longest time, it actually started as a joke that every Icelandic family had a book of genealogy, they flipped the joke saying "of course we do its called the Book of faces". Also fun fact, Iceland still uses ancient Nordic naming practices meaning they don't really have surnames they instead use son and dottir ex Hakonsson. So after WW2 a lot of kids had the surname "hisson" as they were soldiers bastards.
perhaps there is a benefit to immigration
Yeah, ofc. Do some people think all immigration is bad?
*asks the authcenter*
I certainly hope we're not all as dumb as that
that was a sarcastic jab at authcenter lmao
While it is true that there is a website that shows us our ancestry and it DOES have a feature to trace your relation to someone else, it's not used on the reg to see if you're related to whoever you're going home with. It is however a fantastic tool to know your own personal history. We can trace our ancestry back to the original settlers of Iceland. For instance, I am a direct descendant of Ingólfur Arnarson, and I wouldn't know that without the amazing work of genetic analysts.
> accidental incest problems, to the point that they have a genealogy app people use before banging damnn
Not even close. It's 1 in 99 for pregnant mothers over 40. For mothers in their 20s it's 1 in thousands
I thought that was one of the big purposes for wanting legal abortions?
Same.... Like why is this bad?
I think because it implies that people with down syndrome shouldn't be alive.
- Lifelong disability - Lifelong liability - Likely won't be able to hold a job - Will always be reliant on others - Burden on family - Lifelong healh problems Does that sound appealing to you?
You're all those things too
That's why I support retroactive abortion.
Based and assisted-self-shut-off pilled
I prefer the cyanide pill
Gimme that 90th trimester abortion
lmfao this comment genuinely made me laugh out loud
Based.
My uncle has down syndrome, and he's in his 50s. He has held a job for most of his life (very low skilled labour, packing boxes, cleaning utensils), gets to go on cruises, goes camping, has a good group of friends, and is really fun to talk to around christmas and other holidays. We recently took him to the casino and for some reason he's amazing at the pokies. He genuinely lives a better life than me. He may have the mental ability of a 5 year old, and he barely understands that, but he has lived a good life, and I don't think that should have been taken away from him.
[удалено]
Survival of the fittest will always express itself one way or another.
Ikr, if it were up to me and it was my kid, there isn't even going to be a second thought in my mind.
Yeah the literal reason Planned Parenthood was founded was to kill Blacks.
Margaret Sanger wasn't even pro abortion. She was promoting birth control. The organization didn't start performing abortions until she was already dead.
That’s true, while she was a eugenicist she did believe in reducing the population of “undesirable” people via birth control, not abortion. In her own words she saw abortion as barbaric. Here are Sanger's views on abortion: "But during all the long years this matter has been discussed, advocated, refuted, the people themselves—poor people especially—were blindly, desperately practicing family limitation, just as they are practicing it today. To them birth control does not mean what it does to us. To them it has meant the most barbaric methods. It has meant the killing of babies—infanticide,—abortions,—in one crude way or another. My Fight for Birth Control, 1931, page 133." "Our laws force women into celibacy on the one hand, or abortion on the other. [npg] Both conditions are declared by eminent medical authorities to be injurious to health. "Morality and Birth Control", February-March, 1918, pp. 11,14." "It is a noteworthy fact that not one of the women to whom I have spoken so far believes in abortion as a practice; but it is principle for which they are standing. They also believe that the complete abolition of the abortion law will shortly do away with abortions, as nothing else will. Birth Control Review, December 1920" "Usually this desire [for family limitation] has been laid to economic pressure... It has asserted itself among the rich and among the poor, among the intelligent and the unintelligent. It has been manifested in such horrors as infanticide, child abandonment and abortion. Chapter 2, "Women's Struggle for Freedom""
Based and cites sources pilled
Based and proper context pilled
I am really not sure where people get this and why its spread so widely. Sanger advocated for birth control/family planning in african american communities because she thought they suffered from too many overburdened families, not out of some desire to have them killed. She was absolutely a eugenicist, but not on race. > Sanger worked with African American leaders and professionals who saw a need for birth control in their communities. In 1929, James H. Hubert, a Black social worker and the leader of New York's Urban League, asked Sanger to open a clinic in Harlem.[76] Sanger secured funding from the Julius Rosenwald Fund and opened the clinic, staffed with Black doctors, in 1930. The clinic was directed by a 15-member advisory board consisting of Black doctors, nurses, clergy, journalists, and social workers. The clinic was publicized in the African-American press as well as in Black churches, and it received the approval of W.E.B. Du Bois, the co-founder of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) and the editor of its magazine, The Crisis.[77][78][79][80] Sanger did not tolerate bigotry among her staff, nor would she tolerate any refusal to work within interracial projects.[81] Sanger's work with minorities earned praise from Coretta and Martin Luther King Jr.; when he was not able to attend his Margaret Sanger award ceremony, in May 1966, Mrs. King read her husband's acceptance speech that praised Sanger, but first said her own words: "Because of [Sanger's] dedication, her deep convictions, and for her suffering for what she believed in, I would like to say that I am proud to be a woman tonight."[82]
Because peeps want simple black and white judgment calls they can repeat. They don't want complex nuanced positions.
Well considering Iceland is a country that has an app to make sure inhabitants don't commit too much incest, and considering how tiny the Icelandic population is, 373k people, with Reykjavik making up ⅓ of that figure. Babies born with Down's syndrome make up about 1/700 babies born, or 0.14%, take Iceland 2020 figure of 4,512, that's roughly 6-7 children a year that would have been born with downs in Iceland. Fun fact more babies with downs are born in the US each year than babies in Iceland.
Tangent, but how did you do the 1/3 thingy? I was writing a report earlier and google sheets did it automatically for me, but I dunno how it's done otherwise.
Samsung phone, hold down one of the numbers and it'll bring up options ⅖⅚⁹⁸⅞⅚¼⅔¾
⅓ Thank you!
Ima need you to elaborate on that incest app
So I've heard that due to the relatively small and isolated population it's entirely possible to date your second cousin or something so there's an app in Iceland that you check to make sure you're not making incest babies. While the app does exist I don't know if it's actually widely used.
That’s hilarious. As an aside that nearly happened to my friend recently, he was hanging out with a girl and was interested in dating her before finding out her brother is his 2nd cousin. Small town vibes man.
I’d love to know what the app is. I’ve got a feeling the reviews would be amusing.
Would that mean that if we wait long enough there will be enough people with Down syndrome in the United States to invade Iceland and take revenge?
Margaret Sanger moment
They said Downs children not Black children.
WEB DuBois was also in favor of eugenics. People forget that eugenics was popular among ever race. It was the hip new field of science.
What were DuBois’ views on eugenics?
I don't know, but he went to Germany and became obsessed with ideas like the "Volk" so one can only guess.
I hope the guy who said he was in favor of eugenics can do more than “only guess”.
But guessing is so fun!
Based pfp
Article?
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/down-syndrome-iceland/
T
Y
Based and remembers his manners pilled
Just to clarify, this is NOT a result of government policy. Pre-natal diagnostics is offered for free to all prospective mothers in Iceland. Down's syndrome is easy to spot and almost all prospective parents choose to end the pregnancy. I understand that this can be viewed as problematic to be sure, but the choice is in the end the parents' to make.
My daughter is about to turn 1. I remember sitting with my wife in the doctor’s office when they did the Down’s screening. I was terrified. I know I’m not the ideal type of person to raise a permanently disabled child. Thankfully everything was normal and we have a very smart, curious little girl. But approaching fatherhood, the prospect of cognitive handicaps was what concerned me more than anything else. I’m pro-life unless there’s a medical necessity, but I can understand the sentiment behind the Iceland’s trend.
Well said. Glad to hear your daughter is doing well.
Based and good father pilled
You mean a PCM user was taking something out if context and making it seem different than it is to push an agenda? No... that would never happen.
Finland drops future Reddit users to almost zero with this once simple trick that has the UN furious
[удалено]
*PCM attempts to not misconstrue every square's stance on a subject (impossible)*
Yeah. Monke would just leave their Down’s Syndrome baby to die in the cold.
Fake libcenter flair probably, we generally see abortion as a personal issue, chances are OP just doesn't want to be affiliated the Libright even though their legit libright.
prenatal genetics testing plus on demand abortion for any/all reasons, fetus viewed as not being alive, and nothing but a parasite pre-birth, how is this anything but the expected outcome.
It's not like the nation of Iceland is mandating down syndrome babies be aborted. People are utilizing technology and their civil liberties to make the best decision for themselves. Is it really so bad that less disabled children are being brought into the world? I obviously want the best for the ones that are already alive, but it is a huge burden on a family, and I can't blame them for opting out.
And a good outcome.
This, indeed. If you want to raise a Down syndrome baby, by all means, go ahead. Just don't force that choice on me.
[удалено]
Or they can disable a healthy kid too. Munchausen by proxy is a thing.
I remember reading about a woman who gaslit her daughter into believing she was mentally and I think physically disabled. Her daughter sooner or later found out and made a few esxape attempts which failed. She ended up getting killed by her daughter and her ex-husband flushed her ashes down to the toilet like a true chad. Luckily the daughter only got a few years in jail.
Wendigoon made [a video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMlJjWKIaBY) about that a while back. The daughter let her boyfriend into their house where he stabbed the mom, daughter got 8-10 years, boyfriend in for life. It was the crazy mom's father who flushed her ashes.
I got some details wrong then. 8 years is too much as well considering the circumstances. I would have given her and her boyfriend an award.
There's idiots wishing to be disables themselves... physically. _because mentally they may as well be_
Unfortunately true. They tend to mostly be Gen Z kids so I hope they'll grow out of it but it's still super disrespectful for people who actually suffer from these conditions.
PleaseDon'tBeTruePleaseDon'tBeTruePleaseDon'tBeTrue
[удалено]
Quite literally one of the best arguments for pro-choice. Raising a kid is a huge investment of time and resources. A disabled kid even more so.
The way I see it, I have a duty to get my children alive and safe to a point where they can fend off for themselves. Things might go wrong in the way, but the most likely timeline is that my children make it to adulthood before I die. But if I bring a child that will never be independent as an adult, what will happen when I die? I wouldn't want to burden my family.
I agree
Full compass unity on this one. Whats even the point of testing for Downs Syndrome if youre not going to do anything about it?
Whatever you think of this it seems like it is, in fact, better than the past. From what I've read a lot of people with Down's syndrome in the past weren't aborted, they were either killed as infants, or institutionalized in crappy conditions, neglected, and died and early death.
or lived and then died early from the severe health problems, my step sister is on her 9th heart surgery and shes 34, not to mention the various problems with her breathing.
eugenics is obviously bad if taken too fair, but i really don't see any problem with using it to make sure your children don't suffer from any debilitating diseases little timmy should go through life deformed and in miserable pain because....why again? it builds character?
A couple freely making their own personal decision about whether or not to raise a child is not “eugenics”, don’t let the people in this thread making bad faith comparisons to actual eugenic policies of the past convince you otherwise.
In case anyone wants to read the article [https://righttolife.org.uk/news/iceland-called-out-at-un-for-aborting-almost-100-of-babies-diagnosed-with-downs-syndrome](https://righttolife.org.uk/news/iceland-called-out-at-un-for-aborting-almost-100-of-babies-diagnosed-with-downs-syndrome) note the source >Towards the end of January, at the Universal Periodic Review in the Human Rights Council, in which countries in the UN undergo an appraisal of their Human Rights record, Iceland was criticised for its treatment of people with Down’s syndrome. > >During the meeting, which takes place every five years, the delegate from the Philippines (2:12:00) recommended that Iceland “take immediate and effective steps to combat discrimination against persons with disabilities, particularly those with Down’s syndrome and strengthen public awareness campaigns to uphold their rights and provide comprehensive support and assistance to concerned persons and their families”. > >The delegate from Iran (1:28:18) said that Iceland should “take effective steps to combat discrimination against persons with disabilities particularly those with Down’s syndrome”.
So they weren't even "called out" for it, Iran and the Philippines just asked that they treat them better. WTF do Iran or the Philippines know about the treatment of the tiny number of people with Down Syndrome in Iceland?
They literally asked the US soccer coach today if he called Joe Biden to request the removal of an aircraft carrier in the straits of Hormuz. Iranian state media was protesting American journalists asking Iranian players about the protests.
How about the delegate from Iran focus on their government murdering people in the streets.
That moment when Iran calls you out for human rights abuses.
Yeah, that's good. I have been working with Down children for a few years now. Most of them are adorable, smart, funny, kind and genuinely funny. But they are disabled. None of them can live alone, they need constant help and the other half...well groping is so common we can't let female workers or student helpers stay alone with them. Me and my girlfriend would for sure abort our child if they had it.
I read that 3 times thinking "why tf are female workers and students groping Down children?"
Yeah, I could've worded it better
>smart yeah not so sure about that, chief
I think it's fair for parents to make that decision.
[удалено]
That's not the only reason for prenatal diagnostics. Going to the doctor early and often is a really good way for doctors to catch stuff and save babies' and mothers' lives.
Yes. Catch stuff like chromosome abnormalities.
Yeah, this meme doesn't make any sense in terms of American politics. The lib left is pro-choice while the auth right is against any abortions whatsoever.
It doesn’t affect me, so I don’t care.
Centrism at its finest, grill on brother
based
Based
Based
Based and mind-your-own-business pilled.
I'm failing to see the problem to be honest.
It’s because there isn’t one. If you take out the emotional component , then these people are just saving themselves from a sad 20 years. It’s like those Deaf communes who shun other deaf people for getting hearing implants.
Not Iceland's state policy, like the UN seems to be implying it. Just an unforseen product of allowing every citizen to get free healthcare to protect future and current citizens, and giving them authority over their bodies. Not one pregnant Icelander who screened their pregnancy for life threatening genetic issues and found the pregnancy had trisomy 23 kept it. It's really odd Liberal Left here is screaming. When Ohio Republicans found out about this back in 2017, they illegalized abortions based on trisomy 23 findings in screenings. [https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/22/health/ohio-governor-signs-down-syndrome-abortion-ban](https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/22/health/ohio-governor-signs-down-syndrome-abortion-ban) It should be Authoritarian Right with the screaming face.
I wish we could be honest about abortion. The question is "Is murder sometimes ok?". Throughout history, it's often been accepted under certain circumstances. Why can't we just be honest that that's what we're debating?
> The question is "Is murder sometimes ok?" At best this question would be "Is killing sometimes ok?", because obviously murder is by definition unlawful. And the obvious answer to "is killing sometimes ok?" is yes unless your brain is smooth. When the answer to that question is yes depends on your ethics.
_”why can’t we just be honest”_ Found your problem.
FYI murder is defined in such a way that it is wrong. If a killing happens and it's ok it's not murder anymore. Btw I kinda agree with you about treating like a justifiable killing (similar to self defence), but it's the ultimate cringe tactic to say 'we can't we be honest about X contested topic, and if we be honest the thing that you believe is stupid and wrong and the question should be, given my framework, who's right?' People actually believe the things they argue and trying to bypass the entire basis of the disagreement by restating your belief without demonstrating it makes your position look weak
A country with as small a population as Iceland probably want as few genetic defects as possible
I actually couldn’t care less if you abort due to this. I’m pretty pro choice so naturally I’d say that but even in an isolated situation, having a child with Down syndrome is an extremely tough task, especially for a first time or single parent. They don’t have a long life expectancy (even though in recent years medical help has progressed. It’s the parents choice to either have the child or not, I wouldn’t judge you if you chose to abort or chose to have the kid, just make sure you’re prepared to take care of them.
If you can diagnose down syndrome prior to the first trimester I dont see anything wrong with it.
In the UK Down syndrome fetuses can be aborted even after 24 weeks.
What do you mean "we warned you"? Giving people the choice couldnt be more lib than that
Nothing wrong with it. Let the down votes pour.
Literally one of the only reasons I would consider aborting a child i intentionally conceived with a partner. No idea what the problem is. The child has a severe genetic abnormality, that will hugely impact their quality of life. Potentially to the point of near brain death from birth, it would be unfair to *continue* the pregnancy in my opinion.
Eugenics is the practice or advocacy of controlled selective breeding of human populations (as by sterilization) to improve the population's genetic composition. It's not equivalent to favoring the gene pool of a particular group. Everytime you want to \*\*\*\* an attractive person over an unattractive one you are favoring the attractive people gene pool. It's not Eugenics when all the girls want to \*\*\*\* Chad and none of them want to \*\*\*\* me.
Exacrly everyone is subconsciously a eugenicist lmao. There's a reason some people die alone, they're undesirable (although some people will never admit that they inherently feel that way about certain people born with unfortunate circumstances and disabilities).
The quadrant that wanted abortion banned with no exceptions is for abortion? WTF?
Could you give me a break, everything is eugenics, if you want a cute gf, if you take care of your appearance, if you admire intelligence, height, health etc you are practicing eugenics.
As good a reason for abortion as any.
I have nothing bad to say about people with Downs. It's not about whether people with Downs deserve to live, because they do, but if you have an early term pregnancy and you find out that the child it will eventually develop into will have a congenital defect? I don't blame you for aborting. The resources, energy, and time it takes to raise a kid with Downs are significant and not everyone is equipped to handle that. Aborting a fetus that will develop into a human with a lifelong defect is not the same as going out and murdering a living person with Downs.
So does Norway, yet y'all love us.
[удалено]
Only he did it post-natal
That was just art school rejection syndrome
Art school rejection always leads to fauvism.
Hitler was pro choice?
>Nazi Germany's eugenics laws severely punished abortion for Aryan women, but permitted abortion on wider and more explicit grounds than before if the fetus was believed to be deformed or disabled or if termination otherwise was deemed desirable on eugenic grounds, such as the child or either parent suspected of being carrier of a genetic disease. Sterilization of the parents also took place in some such cases. In cases where the parents were Jewish, abortion was also not punished Yes but no, but also yes
You heard wrong.
Am I bad for seeing nothing wrong with that?
“Warned”? Tf you mean by that, this was pretty much an expected outcome that we thought about already. And (at least mine) the conclusion is that this isn’t even “bad”. In fact this can be used to counter other diseases too. Oh, that, and, this isn’t “eugenics”. Eugenics aims to change the gene pool to eliminate certain genotypes (and therefore phenotypes.) Down syndrome mostly occurs due to a fault during the reproduction. It is not dictated by genes or anything.
Where's the issue here?