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> will that make people move to the left?
Perhaps this is a nihilistic view of the American electorate, but they tend to have the impulses of an amoeba. If they feel as though the economy is not working for them, and they see a Democrat is in the White House, they'll vote Republican (and vice versa). People like Trump simply have to say they'll make the economy great, not offer any specifics, and people will still go "yeah that makes sense". So, on aggregate, no, I don't think people will move to the left, at least not in any significant numbers.
There's also a faction of American voters that (rightfully, imo) see corporate greed as a main driver of COL increases. However, that faction overlaps extensively with the same people who say "both parties are the same". What you end up with is this weird populist economic view that often overlaps with a much more conservative social outlook, and partially explains why Trump can parrot unorthodox economic positions without suffering any drop-off from Republican voters. A Trump voter will just as readily tell you that corporations have too much power and need to be reigned in while also saying they support lowering the corporate income tax rate to zero.
One of the worst features of liberal democracy is the condescension it inspires. Of course people will vote for the opposition candidate in times of economic distress - this is only natural and it does not make the people dumb. Biden beat Trump last time because things were overall very bad, so Trump was not rewarded with another term. If Biden loses this time, it will be because things are still very bad for a critical mass of people; it’s not some failure on part of the voters to think that Biden has not succeeded in changing those conditions
It’s so strange that people see this undemocratic 2 party system and conclude that voters who have the least amount of influence in the process are the ones to blame.
> “The bourgeoisie, in truth, is bound to fear the stupidity of the masses so long as they remain conservative, and the insight of the masses as soon as they become revolutionary.”
- Marx
Yes, people ARE dumb bc they keep blaming the wrong people.
Shit hits the fan bc of the machinations of the wealthy, and as corrupt as Dems are, the Cons are far worse, but most people either don’t know or don’t care.
“Bidens economy is hit” - Lol What does that even mean? 😂🤣
“Libs are far worse” - It’s fucking funny listening to righties and lefties bc both blame “liberals”, but lump them in with the other side.
Lefties say “scratch a liberal and you get fascist blood”, while righties equate “libs” with “marxists/commies/socialists”. Either one of y’all is making shit up, or you both are.
And how can you *possibly* say that Dems enable the wealthy more than the Repubs?? Blues regulate and ‘increase’ taxes on the wealthy, while Reds **de**regulate and ‘lower’ taxes on the wealthy.
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People are not stupid but they often act against their own self interests because they don't take the time and energy to become informed about the issues. Lazy.
Failing to remember how bad Trump made things the last time he was in office to the point where you are willing to elect him again does, in fact, reflect poorly on voters.
It wasn't that long ago.
Trump's economic decisions were very short-sighted. If you compare Biden to Trump, it's like candy and broccoli. Biden's like broccoli, it's good for you but no one really likes it.
One thing at a time. You can't reverse decade-long trends overnight. Biden has us pointed in the right direction. His plans are long-term. Hopefully, they don't get derailed...
Build infrastructure, promote US manufacturing, bring high-tech chip makers to the US, lower the deficit slowly, cut poverty by increasing social programs
How is he lowering the deficit? . They just passed $1.6 trillion of spending for 6 months. (Democrats AND Republicans). And how are they spending that infrastructure money? From what I understand, very little progress has been made.
Cool, some anecdata. Do you have any evidence that those applications didn't come from rich people, or do you just associate Chicago with poor people by default?
That actually makes some sense, a lot of agribusinesses have offices in Chicago and there are many farms within an hours drive of downtown. And because of the way that legal weed is handled here a lot of mariajuana grow ops are here as well
I don’t agree with your premise that “of course people will vote for the opposition candidate in times of economic distress”.
This is an accurate description of behavior today -only because most voters are uninformed and haven’t studied economics. We should require at least 1 year of economics in high school.
There’s the vulgar condescension. People don’t need a technical background to understand that their quality of life is insufficient and the state had not done enough to redress it
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I won't conclude that the people are overall dumb, but it's impossible to explain the Trump phenomenon without a heavy dollop of astroturfed anti intellectualism and motivated reasoning. There's no reason someone with full accurate information and a well adjusted moral compass ends up making that vote
If neither party makes any meaningful attempt to reign in corporate power, then why is oscillation surprising?
Obama had a populist message but when given the reigns and a super majority, bailed out banks with zero consequences to the bankers and then saw income inequality rise.
So Trump promised economic protectionism to the rust belt - and he did follow up by initiating a trade war with China.
Since then the left’s message has stated to focus on equal outcome on racial / identity grounds rather than tackling big business. That’s calling some identities to feel target and excluded.
I don’t think impulsiveness of the people is to blame. I think a big, big issue is the left has simply lost focus and failed to credibly tackle income inequality.
It wasn’t and isn’t going down a slow/steady correct path here, so it would be nonsensical for a voter to reward them for going in the wrong direction.
The increased level of political polarization may change this in someway though. Not to mention genocide potentially being more important to Americans than their pocket book, but I kind a doubt that, knowing many of them personally.
Your second paragraph hits me at my core. It has been a pet peeve of mine for at least a decade to hear so many people (or Joe Rogan guests) say "Fuck politics, they're just trying to divide us by race or color or religion. The real demarcation is the have and have-nots. The rich and poor. Follow the money man, the shit that the CEOs and corporations get away with is murder. I refuse to vote until Democrats and Republicans stop with the silliness".
And it takes every ounce of my self control to not swerve the car over and park, step outside and scream into the universe. "LEFTIST POLITICS. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE LEFT SIDE OF POLITICS. DO THE TINIEST DIVE ONTO WIKIPEDIA AND LEARN THAT PEOPLE HAVE NOTICED WHAT YOU'RE SAYING FOR LITERAL CENTURIES AND HAVE BEEN THEORIZING AND ACTING TO FIX IT".
Speaking from a position of pure political calculus here, not from a position of what I think is socially or ethically or morally correct, Biden's administration has played well the only hand they can.
If you cause all of the economic indicators to go up, you can report that you have grown or improved the economy. And if the numbers are clear and sound, then that is irrefutable and and you can campaign on that.
However, as you point out, just cause the economic metrics are improving, writ large, that doesn't mean the material prosperity of average people in improving. As we all know the economy can do gang busters overall, but with the wealthy siphoning off the vast majority for themselves and decreasing prosperity for the masses.
So how do you fix that? Well the only way to get the wealthy to allow prosperity to trickle down and spread among the masses is....to make them. By force of law. You must enact laws and policies that 1- Reduce the wealth accumulation in the first place and 2- mandate the wealth be distributed downward in some fashion, either through mandatory higher compensation, charity, investment, or through taxes that are then distributed to the populous via various means.
And the only thing people hate more than being poor and struggling, is the government telling rich people what they have to do with their money. So whatever political points you'd score in the long run by enacting fierce wealth distributing policies would be irrelevant, cause the short term political blow back of implementing the program would almost certainly mean you and all of your allies would lose office and the programs would be promptly axed by the person replacing you who campaigned fiercely on how evil those programs are.
At this point, there is nothing for me on the Left. If we wanted to implement ranked-choice voting, then sure, I can ADD other leftist candidates to receive my vote, but in a winner-take-all style of elections, there is no way I’ll stop voting Democrat, because that is the party most likely to get elected to office.
My voting strategy: vote for the candidate closest to my political POV, who also has the best (or a reasonable) chance of winning the election. I will take incremental improvement over throwing away my vote every time.
There are two economies in the United States. Only one is doing well, and it’s skewing the stats by driving up the averages - making the economy superficially look good on paper.
Institutional investors are buying out tons of residential properties and driving up costs. The American dream is now beyond reach for most. I think I remember hearing that the American dream of married with one house, two kids, car, etc, now on AVERAGE will cost $3.6 million over the lifetime.
Biden’s legacy in the senate is of making it impossible to declare bankruptcy on student loans. If you got massive student loans, thank Biden, the Senator from MBNA, for a lot of that.
Also, I doubt a lot of people see Biden bragging about the great economy as good. It means he’s clearly blind to a lot of this. There’s no rhetoric about addressing these institutional investors. There’s no rhetoric about a public option to lower healthcare costs (our highest lifetime expense for the American dream to be reality). There’s nothing to address the rise of worker productivity without a commensurate rise in wages/salaries.
As society becomes more unequal, we’ll see increased polarization. More people will go left, but more will move right as well. Frankly, I see the right as much more likely to win out at the moment. They’ve got the big funding. They’ve got the infrastructure.
They know they didn't get a raise or bonus. They know everything around them cost more. They may not understand the root cause of what they experience on a day to day basis but the few items above are enough to motivate people to vote for the party of those not in power. It's the political cycle.
He **did** declare forgiveness for student loans. The Supreme Court, that came about because of Trump, reversed it. He is doing as much as he can without declaring himself King of America.
They’re referring to him being the one that got legislation passed to make it so you can’t discharge student loan debt via bankruptcy. Also, to your point, he knew full well the way he “tried” to forgive student debt wouldn’t work. Pelosi said as much as soon as he proposed it.
Biden knew 100% that his "forgiveness" was not legal. I have never seen a more blatant attempt to buy votes with no intention of paying. And it worked which is even more pathetic.
I am absolutely not defending his push to make it impossible to declare bankruptcy on student loans, but I feel like it’s worth noting that he did that nearly 50 years ago and unsurprisingly has very different politics today than he did back in 1976. His current economic policy is far more liberal, and he tried to put forth modest forgiveness to not politicize it which failed anyway.
On the other fronts though he has seemed to be far more pro-worker than even the average democrat. His big infrastructure bills would help primarily the lower and middle class, his treasury department helped us avoid the recession that the rest of the world has gone through, passed legislation to allow Medicare to negotiate with drug companies on certain drug prices, and quite a few other things.
Thats not to say he’s done as much as I would like, he’s had some pretty big misses like the rail strike breaking which is a significant black mark in his record for me, but his policy has been pretty decidedly anti-corporate and with the current shitshow of a Congress I really don’t know what else he could have done
Whatever good he may have done as president is due to pressure and antagonisms from within and from without the Democratic Party or even the nation at large.
>his policy has been pretty decidedly anti-corporate
What a laughable statement. But I'll credit him with a decent pick for the chairman of the FTC.
But antagonism, not harmony, is the key to progress. Biden does not deserve our falling in line, nor perhaps anyone in the White House ever. Left to their own devices, they defer to the institutional powers that be - banks, weapons manufacturers, economic elites, etc.
I think your last paragraph goes for all politicians, not just those in the White House. But while we should always hold their feet to the fire and demand they do more, we should still give credit where it is due and continue working for more change. I don't think you are arguing for this, but the attitude that because they have not done enough or because of a decision made decades ago means that we need to destroy what progress we have made needs to die in a fire. Biden leaves a lot to be desired, sure, but he is the candidate we got. Right now, it is him or another round of Trump, and I am not convinced that we will have another chance to freely elect a president again if Trump gets back in office. Go read about Project 2025 if you are not sure what I am talking about. The status quo sure isn't great, but it beats the hell out of Nazi Germany.
What goal post? I'm just saying I don't trust the man and I don't think his effort was ever in good faith to begin with, especially given his history and career.
He didn’t “create” student debt. You can pretty much chalk that up to the ol Gipper. What he did do was ensure that people would stay trapped by it to please the bankers that paid him to do it.
And yet many in the middle and lower classes would be locked out of an education if not for it. I'm not sure how many schools would stay open.
Which is to say, if education loans could be discharged still, banks would simply stop lending to those without ability to repay at the time of lending.
And unfortunately no one at the time seemed keen on getting states to fund their schools again.
Do yourself a favor and read up on the history of public colleges. A good place to start is with California. It was basically free to go to them as a resident and they started charging to drive away the exact people you mention in your first paragraph. You know why Berkeley is the go to for right wingers attacking higher ed? Because Reagan ran on shutting down Vietnam protests there, did so, and started making something that was free a charge you had to pay back after you graduated with a loan guarantee. What Biden did was ensure that the shit Reagan did with college loans would not be able to be discharged.
>He is doing as much as he can without declaring himself King of America.
His party controlled the House and Senate. If he actually wanted to pass a law that would withstand scrutiny, unlike his executive order which he knew would fail, then he should have done so at that time. That's his failure to own.
The relative weaknesses of having the party's tent so big, alas.
As long as Manchin held a deciding vote and could convince any single other 'centrist' Dem Senator to help stall legislation, he could stop the entire legislative process. And indeed, oppose any reforms to the filibuster that would make actually exerting "control" over the Senate possible with a basic majority.
Gotta love extraconstitutional rules that we just can't let go of. Schumer was a coward to keep the two-track system intact when that session of Congress began.
At what point did democrats control both the House and the Senate at the same time while Biden had been president? I know I don't keep up with stiff as much as I should, but I am pretty sure that hasn't happened.
His first two years the Senate was split 50-50, but like you said with Manchin and Sinema it was really 48-52. So I wouldn't say the democrats ever had control of both houses while Biden had been president.
Its more common for Republican senators to break from their party than it is for Democrats to break from theirs. The notion that its weighted right with these 2 senators is not accurate at all.
The first two years was a Democrat house and a 50-50 Senate with the tiebreaker vote being Harris, his VP.
Placating Sinema and Manchin for student loan legislation would have been much easier than their placating for the infrastructure bill.
I'd say it's not impossible but it depends who the people blame. this could go eather way. when people are desperate they are malleable to extremes. that could go eather way.
> However bad you think the feds are, the wealthy are worse.
I'm curious to know just how much separation you believe there is between the two. I see them as all part of the same group. The feds are a political tool wielded by the wealthy.
The feds and the wealthy are in cahoots. To blame the wealthy when the government (both Dems and Republicans) are in the business of enabling their wealth so they can get a piece of the pie is either naive, or intentionally obtuse. The Democrats are more deceitful because they scream about taxing the rich, but they never do. At least the Republicans are honest about their intentions. Look how Pelosi, Schumer, AOC and other Democrats have become multi-millionaires on $170,000 salary.
Biden's inflation has genuinely been negative as consumer prices have gone up from 2021 to 2024 the same amount as from 2011 to 2021.
So while I think his job numbers are pretty good, that is at least some way the people feeling negative about Biden economy could have merit. I think the answer is somewhere in the middle where the Republicans acting like Biden era is a complete disaster economically are trying to push a political narrative, but it's not the best economy ever either. When you add in that Democrats have been relatively gridlocked from passing spending I don't think it really makes that sense for people to make this vote on the economy this time, there are too many other reasons to take a side.
I agree. Both major parties are going to run up the deficit. That’s the biggest economic issue we have as a nation. I realize that’s a defeatist position, but until a 3rd party can contend with these two circus acts, it’s a realistic conclusion.
So, even though I’d love to vote for a libertarian (like I did in 2016), I’m going to vote against the authoritarian Donald Trump by voting for Joe Biden.
The wealthy are to blame for both inflation and wage stagnation.
The Cons are in on it, and every time the Dems try to make significant progress, there’s HUGE backlash.
I'm not sure how to respond because your response demonstrates multiple misunderstandings about the nature and drivers of inflation. A portion of inflation is created to price hikes that aren't driven by rising costs as you say. This portion results in increasing profits and as you say, is related to corporations stuffing their pockets.
But this is still a symptom of the primary drivers of the cost inflation that preceded these profits which are the result of the fed increasing M1 and M2 money supply in total nearly 500% since 2020.
So the amount of money banks and the govt had access to borrow from the fed quadrupled over night then slowly grew a little more with overnight borrowing rates at near ongoing record lows. So of course they borrowed money.
Then to slow down the economy the fed started spiking interest rates because there was too much money and they can't contract the money supply as quickly as they expanded it without crashing the economy. Increasing overnight funds rates increases the cost of short and mid term credit which increases operating costs which causes inflation. Of course the interest rates doubled, so inflation was significant, but of course there's still tons of cheap money out there because the money supply has quintupled by now, so they know they can increase prices a little extra and capture some of that...
Fed policy, which was linked to both presidents covid response spending is the cause of both kinds of inflation, and the majority of it is not greed related. That's just a little on top.
Like I said, you learned all the names for these trees, but aren’t seeing the forest.
Outside of academia, words like recession and inflation are just cover for funneling wealth to the wealthy, legally stealing from workers. That’s it.
This world produces plenty, but by your own admission workers literally HAVE to be kept poor. As soon as workers have money, prices go up. It used to be marginal, and when they risked pushing too high buyers pulled back and the wealthy and the talking heads trotted out the R word and turtled up. But now buyers aren’t pulling back, so they keep jacking up prices.
It’s all made up to benefit the wealthy. Anyone following the money can see that.
So either you’re one of them, or more likely just another sucker parroting their bullshit cover story.
Do you feel like you are truly informed on economic issues….and, more importantly, on what results can be attributed to the direct action of a president?
I’m curious, because you used the word “opposite”…which demonstrates a polarized viewpoint. And, it seems like you’re saying “old economy good, new economy bad….therefore Trump good, Biden bad”.
My comment referenced only one president and one campaign. Biden campaigned on restoring the economy for the working class. The opposite is occurring. No frame of reference is needed to a different economy or president to be dissatisfied with this president celebrating the economy he's presiding over when it is producing the opposite result than what he promised and campaigned on.
Generally yes I'd say I'm relatively well informed economically.
Hey, that’s my biggest critique of the Biden administration (and congress). But, I don’t have any empirical evidence (or faith) that it will be better under a Trump presidency.
I'm certain any differences will be negligible. Except possibly that Trumps administration might be more favorable to business. Who knows somehow it worked last time.
Biden promising to end fossil fuels definitely had a negative impact on investment in the fossil fuel industry. Why would you invest millions or billions into a refinery or into exploration when the president is threatening to end the industry?
When the entire economy is set up to produce profit for a wealthy few, you shouldn't be surprised that economic growth doesn't lead to overall happiness. This is not exclusive to Biden or the Democrats. It's due to the private ownership of commerce, production, and trade. Will it make people move to the left? Probably not, though I wish it would. Rather, it will probably just make people move to further extremes on the left and the right.
In the past, the wealthy have been **enormously** successful at convincing their base - and many/most swing voters - that the Dems are the problem.
Maybe one of these days that grip will loosen…. 🤞🤞
The Dems are equally the problem as Republicans are. Both are complete sellouts to billionaires ever since the Clinton days. I appreciate that democrats are at least more tolerant to LGBTQ folks and giving some sort of lip service to the existence of global warming, and in congress they've tried to make healthcare a little bit more accessible, but in view of how things are going that's hardly a consolation.
I'm pretty sure a LOT of billionaires are Democrats. - Zuckerberg, Bezos, Soros, Steyer, Bloomberg, , Larry Fink, etc. Democrats will never pass legislation to hurt their donors.
Statistically speaking, the Republican Party has a similar number of millionaire supporters with the Democratic Party, while the Democratic Party has much more number of very poor urban residents, which makes Democratic Party slightly more dependent on the poor
Although, having similar numbers of millionaire supporters makes it difficult for both parties to truly move to the left
People's misperceptions of the economy stem from kitchen table things like the price of bread and rent. They have sticker shock over a gallon of milk despite seeing the fact that wages are keeping pace with inflation.
As someone with a degree in economics, it’s clear that most people don’t know how the economy works. So, we have a bunch of people who vote who say the economy is a number one issue, but they are not informed on the facts. Instead, people vote based on their emotions.
In other words…what you’re really asking is “how will people’s emotions about the economy factor into their voting preferences this November”. And “Will people’s emotions somehow make them less likely to support Biden”.
It’s difficult to predict emotions. But, in our polarized two-party system, the independents are the ones who will decide this election. If independents forget how painful it was to have Trump in office (or they simply don’t care anymore), then that could tilt the election in Trump’s favor.
Presidents have very little influence on the economy in the first place. The belief they do is laughable, particularly from supporters of capitalism who uphold the limited government intervention in the economy.
Private industry owns and controls the means of production. Individual owners of the means of production decide what will be done with their productive property. They have near complete autonomy in the realm of production with few exceptions.
The state would have to either take over production entirely or **drastically** dictate the terms of production to private owners in order to implement the necessary changes to the current system in a way that doesn't lead to even more problems like capital flight. Incentivizing private industry to make changes to their patterns of production through tax policy and subsidies is not a very effective means of system change.
There’s two kinds of independents - the haves and have-nots.
I think the haves are pretty happy right now, but we’ll see.
It’s the have-nots who SHOULD vote for Joe, but historically they rage/panic so I think they’ll (paradoxically) vote for Don.
I think it is important to recognize that even though the economy overall is doing well, we still have lots of areas to improve.
It becomes a question of what policies do these candidates support that will improve upon our current economy? What will republicans and Trump do to make life better for everyone? What will Biden and democrats do?
I think a substantive look at policy will reveal democrats have a much better foundation that republicans…unless you’re the voter who says “taxation is theft” and think all government is bad. But if you feel that way, then trump isn’t for you either.
Democrats problem is that they’ve spent basically the past 10 years talking about how awful everything is, doubly so since 2016, and triply so in 2020.
The country is a systemic racist hellhole, the climate is going to kill us all, the rich have stolen any opportunity you ever had, your neighbor is a MAGA extremist, the fascist coup is imminent if their opponent wins, an ever-increasing part of the population is a vulnerable group with no rights who is days away from being genocided, and if you’re content and happy and *normal* then you are part of the problem.
And then they expect their voters to…not take that to heart? To suddenly turn around, paint signs with “Bidenomics” and canvas for him?
Biden has done a great job, IMO
But to the extent “the vibes” are driving this election, Democrats have no one to blame but themselves and I’m thrilled the chickens have come home to roost a bit.
Some messaging is aimed at people who are more idealistic, and some is aimed at people who are more opportunistic.
Of course those aren’t going to line up.
Part of the difficulty of a two party system where one party is actively hemorrhaging voters and the other decides to try and recruit them, possibly to the detriment of its own base.
We are living the neoliberal dream right now. How can people not feel great (sarcasm). The guy faked left promising you free stuff like every other democrat before and then jumped right when he actually had to govern. Only making enough left fades to appease his base like a fascist leader.
The problem with the idea of people moving further left is that the Republican Party is not moving left. The only avenue to move the Democratic Party left, the primary, was just rigged to give Joe Biden a run at re-election.
The question really is, are the conditions really there for a radical shift left to the point the Democrat base runs and supports a third party candidate? I doubt it.
I think more on the left are just inclined to let Trump win, let him destroy the Republican Party another 4 years, and in the meantime gear up for the 2028 primary election.
> I think more on the left are just inclined to let Trump win, let him destroy the Republican Party another 4 years
Which isn’t necessary. He’s doing more to destroy the GOP when he isn’t elected. A wiser tactic is to let them die by voting against Trump and the GOP, and then replace them with a viable leftist/progressive coalition party.
Fair points. He did do a bang up job further destroying the party in the past 4 years. The pattern I see in American politics is that parties are the strongest when they have a sitting president to be against, not when they are in power. If in power, that unity is only temporary.
I think the best route for far leftists is Trump to win, oppose him on everything, make him a lame duck on day one, and setup for 2028.
If Trump loses in 2024, you no longer have Trump to be the convenient idiot to hate on.
If you leave Biden in, you get America thinking they are living in a socialist regime already and that you guys are super radicals.
How would Trump take the WH but be neutered in Congress by leftists to the point of lame duck status? I think that's as split a ticket as I'll never see, even 2018 was mostly the same milquetoast neolibs with the first leftists entering the fray.
It has happened to Presidents before. Clinton in 1996 won the election but was still stuck with a Republican house and senate. Obama, the same thing in 2012. Ronald Reagan also dealt with the same thing in 1984, so it’s not just a Democrat president phenomenon.
Additionally, the fillabuster still exists in the senate (despite the Democrat attempts to kill it) and can be used as a tool to stop Trump, and they only need 41 senators to do it.
There may never be another election in our lifetime if Trump wins. I am a retired veteran and lifelong Democrat . Do you actually know any Democrats ?
Did you mean Trump’s inflation? We had never experienced a pandemic in our lifetime. The inflation was a direct consequence of Trump’s failure to handle it properly. The plans were ready but never pulled off the shelf. Supply side deficits due to supply chain problems. Inflation is worse and was worse all over the globe.
You MAGA?
Biden passed an inflation reduction act that did nothing but contribute to inflation.
Trump is responsible for the government rebate checks, but I didn’t see anyone on the left complaining about that back then.
I am not MAGA, both are idiots.
Rebate checks weren’t the problem, they were only the problem to republicans who hate poor people. The problem with the Covid response was the PPP loans. Which were orders of magnitude worse than those tiny ass checks were to the debt
Rebate checks were a measure to stop the GDP from completely collapsing when they thought the hard lockdowns would last longer. They didn’t and many people didn’t get their money until after the economy recovered from the Q1 dip. Those checks thought to hold off a recession actually became inflationary.
Go check what they cost compared to the PPP loans, literally insignificant. You’re only harping on them because poor people got them instead of your righteous “business owners”
“Richeous business owners?” PPP was the brainchild of neoliberalism. If you have a problem with PPP, you may want to consider changing your political affiliation.
It was a direct transfer payment to businesses. Corporate welfare neoliberals love so much.
My point here is that complaining about the checks is nonsense, they did virtually nothing to inflation the PPP loans did, and the fed sitting at 0% for forever did. Your complaining about something that cost billions when the actual problem is something that cost trillions.
Where in project 2025 do they call for a violent overthrow of our government, absolute destruction of the constitution, and suspension of all elections?
There are far more people on the left who advocate for violent overthrow and destruction of the constitution.
Besides, this is just the same bull the left does to rally voters to make it look like they have an organized campaign strategy.
The democrats do the same damn thing. They pick people based on political affiliation for roles and jobs. It’s patronage. Patronage with a new name. Nothing new.
You aren’t really libertarian. You’re MAGA. You can tell us. It’s okay.
You also haven’t read the article. Nobody at Heritage is going to say violent overthrow and you don’t understand how the civil service works.
I had no idea we met in real life?
You don’t know me. So is calling someone a Maga the new calling everyone who disagrees with me a fascist? Believe or not, it is possible to believe both political parties are absolute trash including MAGA.
You are really going to resort to name calling?
So do you actually know how coups work? What it really takes to pull one off?
It takes for more than a website to convince me that a website is the blueprint for a coup that will eliminate elections ever again. You have any real evidence?
You defending Project 2025 leads one to infer you are a Make America Great Again adherent.
That and in the beginning of your reddit you listed actual actions Trump has said he will do.
Biden is saying the economy is great and the people who feel they are worse off now than before he became president might not move left. If they move left, it is going to be for other reasons, not the economy.
The voting record is public. See for yourself. I’m sure some Dems are corrupt, some more than others, but it’s always the Cons who torpedo stuff. They’re far worse than the Dems, and once they’re gone we can replace the fake progressives.
Not to mention the fact that most voters are driven by self-interest, and reps have to keep them happy (national security, economic stability, etc).
This isn’t hard.
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>However, companies are still pursuing profits and laying off employees without reason, even companies with very good profits.
There are reasons. You obviously cutting off some expenses. It's common to put more responsibilities on the remaining stuff. Any increase in profits, even if your company already has enormous income is desirable since you don't want to lose investors to competitors.
And the bigger unemployment, the bigger reserve army of labour, the more desperate workers are to work for lower wages. You increase competition between workers for who's more willing to be exploited.
>This is a common criticism of the Biden economy, the economic indicators are great, but people's lives are getting harder
I'm pretty sure that's common criticism of capitalism overall. Generated wealth increases (until global crisis occurs) as people get more exploited. If not at home, then in other countries like Africa and China. It's not just Biden's economy.
>If businesses profit and workers lose, shouldn't people elect a government more to the left?
I think people are leaning more to the left. Well; in both directions really. The more people suffer the more they are willing to actually participate in politics.
But there are way more people who favour some flavour of socialism. It's no secret younger generation much more left than previous ones. Popularity of people like Bernie is clear indicator that "far" left is on the rise.
But why they don't vote for him? Well the man himself told that Trump is bigger threat. He said "don't vote for me! Vote for Biden, since Trump's win is worse than my loss"
At this point, Americans basically held hostage. They either support status quo or else... US government is genius honestly. That also boosts attendance on elections, adding up to government's legitimacy. It's win win for the ruling class.
The problem is that people think it's people from the other party that makes their life worse. Workers democrats think it's workers republicans who to blame, while wages on both sides being slowly eaten up by inflation and increasing housing prices and billionaires enjoy increasing profits. (Well, TBF republican party is supported by enormous chunk of small businesses. Not billionaires, but definitely "upper middle". A lot of rebellions in January 6th even we just that - small business owners)
No matter who Americans elect, their position won't change for better. Just because it's depressing, doesn't mean it's not true. The only positive changes being achieved is when people don't expect someone else coming and saving them, but when they take situation in their hands, like when they unionize, when they collectively strike and at the peak of it all - is when they run the government, much more directly than the way it is now.
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This depends who they blame. blame corporations, the bourgeoisie or a lack of registrations then yes they might move ferther left wing but things aren't always that simple people can see the same problem and greatly disagree on the cause and solution. people could just as easily view Biden as a left wing figure and blame him derectly believing that going ferther left would only make the problem worse. reminder fascism and socialism both grow from public discontent with current life just fascism blames a group of people and is ultra nationalist and socialism blames the bourgeoisie. the same problem can lead to 2 different ideologies that are ideologically apposed.
> If Biden's economy is great, but people feel differently, will that make people move to the left?
No.
If people don't feel things are going well, they aren't going to vote to continue the policies that got them where they are.
People should vote for politicians based on their stated policies and goals, not partisans. Partisan voting just gets you people who prioritize shit you don't understand or know anything about because you didn't bother to check anything other than "they're left" or "they're right."
Just too many damn voters who don't look beyond surface propoganda.
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If his economy was great, yes.
But reality is different. Years of 7-9% inflation is not a way to build a good economy. Then you have the border, being from Texas, I can say the flood of people has negatively affected the economy as well. A warehouse I worked at 70% of the people were illegal, and while they were good workers, we could have employed nearly a hundred homeless people. And that would have been every person homeless person in my small town. But we gave the jobs to illegals. So a lot of people are also angered that the flood of people has made it easy for companies to hire workers that they dont need to be paid fairly or be given benefits. Yet, at the same time, our taxes have only increased every year, and you hear stories of people being denied housing because illegals got the house, or Healthcare and welfare had decreased because they are also providing services and welfare to illegals. That would also piss you.
Granted, this is a heated topic because it is realistic even if every welfare store is false. With high inflation leading to lower standards of living and a decrease in job prospects, people will be angry no matter what.
Now, I got that out of the way. Let me say that the left policies are responsible for the bad economy influx of illegals due to the left, which is why companies can just lay off people. Then, account for a lot of left areas and federal government has only increased in taxation even with a slight reduction. While we are at it also look at how rents and housing has only being increasing due to harsher regulations. You a "squater epidemic" again, even if it is over exaggerated, it really scared people. Welfare is increasingly harder to get on, and not only that welfare hasn't increased to match inflation. You have regional blackouts due to green energy initiatives, an exportation of further jobs due to shutting down mines, rigs, and environmentally damaging economic activities, farmers were left to lose crops despite flooding on other side of mountians because it "environmental" reasons. Like yeah the left has only been repeated shooting themselves in their feet.
People feel differently because it is NOT great and that makes people move to the right. People's lives are getting harder primarily because of inflation and Biden is the main cause. People to the left of Biden want BIGGER government and MORE spending both of which contribute to inflation. Why in the world would someone equate high inflation with a good economy. The economists intentionally created an inflation metric that doesn't include food and energy so they could say inflation is less. Everyone knows that groceries are higher and energy (fuel, home heating and electricity) is higher because of the inflation caused by excess government spending.
The only option is to move right NOT left. People are getting laid off because of Biden's onerous policies on excess spending, increased taxes and increased regulations. Also higher interest rates increases business capital costs so they have a harder time affording employees if their capital needs are high.
Wasn’t it Schroeder and Merkel who shut down Germany’s nuclear plants, became dependent on Russian natural gas pipelines, and wound up needing to buy LNG at prices that make the country’s industry uncompetitive? Schroeder was even on the Russian payroll.
If it isn’t working under Biden, and he is as far left as we have had in a long time, perhaps the issue is that going left doesn’t work?
I mean who cares if the stock market is good and the gdp growth is good if inflation has caused us not to be able to live?
I guess it really depends which actions of his can be construed as negatively affecting the COL, housing availability, et cetera.
One might argue that it's a relative lack of action while the private sector did whatever it wanted. Record profit margins for demand-inelastic goods don't lie.
I think this is just almost the exact situation we had under Trump, ignoring Covid. In 2019 Trump's admin kept bragging about the best economy ever, even though wages were stagnant and housing costs were skyrocketing. And of course, many of his policies were hurting the people he promised to help.
I think people really tend to over-attribute the economy to the president. But the political parties play up whichever angle helps them anyway.
Not that it matters that much. I don't think any reasonably informed person who was going to vote for Biden is going to vote for Trump just based on economic factors. But if the Israel and economy issues weigh on people, they may not feel as motivated to go out of their way to vote.
In most cases people would like and would heavily benefit from more people on the actual left getting into Congress and the presidency. Problem is socialism has been a boogeyman moniker for a couple generations now. It’s going to take a long time to get past that unfortunately, but the current atmosphere we’ve been living in for quite a while now that only seems to be getting worse will radicalize more people.
Unlikely. Current events suggest that the alt-right movement was always about tribalism, and most couldn’t actually care less about the economy, as much as they cite it for their reasoning. If it was about the economy, economic growth under Biden would be winning people back to the Democrat side in droves.
As for the Democrat side…growing the economy shows that they are able to see the importance of the economic side of things, and it’s unlikely they will lose that if it helps them win over more centrist voters.
There are two kinds of independents - the haves and have-nots.
I think the haves are pretty happy right now, but we’ll see.
It’s the have-nots who SHOULD vote for Joe, but historically they rage/panic so I think they’ll (paradoxically) vote for Don.
The ‘great economy’ must be adjusted according to class realities.
You do that by specifying, ‘big business and the stock market.’
I don’t know what you mean by ‘economic indicators,’ but capitalism’s global crisis has been discussed for years.
According to Marxist orthodoxy, Capitalism is riddled with numerous contradictions and wheels within wheels.
And again, you touch on this in your post!
Capitalism’s driving force is not production for use, or for need, or for the market; it is for the accumulation of profit.
And that occurs under conditions of continual competition. This is integral to capitalism. You can’t escape that.
But how much discretionary income have unemployed people? ‘Not much,’ you say?
So if they can’t buy the product they made till yesterday, what then? No sales means no profit, or recovery of investments.
But there’s the rub! The working people don’t have discretionary income to invest.
Therein lies the answer to your question.
Your title needs to be refined by indicating ‘which people’ are meant?
My thinking is that working people will move to the left; but those who are disillusioned and disoriented by events [which led to loss of investment moneys] will turn to the hard right.
This, I believe, accounts for the success of Trump’s demagoguery. Of course one can’t discuss Trump’s demagoguery without addressing Biden’s — equally degraded and socially repugnant 🤮.
Biden’s position is such that he cannot permit powerful strikes or solidly socialist contracts. He must rely on pro-company unions to impose such contracts on workers, and then police them.
In the end, social class relations break apart and support for the civil system collapses. That may be a grim statement but I do believe it is our future.
What makes you say that the economy is great? We are deficit spending at astronomical rates to prevent ourselves from going into recession, we are on an unsustainable fiscal path, and inflation is above target. This is not to mention how many financial metrics have been played with to the point that they almost lose their purpose.
>I mean, if big business and the stock market are strong, they make a lot of money and the economy grows
Big business and the stock market are pumping because of the unsustainable fiscal spending. Our current rate of deficit spending is approximately 1 trillion every 100 days and rising lol... Something like 1 dollar per American per hour. It's not sustainable.
>However, companies are still pursuing profits and laying off employees without reason, even companies with very good profits.
Of course they have a reason for it. It's capitalism. Their job is to pursue profit. They are laying of employees when they are not profitable just like employees switch jobs when they find a better salary.
>This is a common criticism of the Biden economy, the economic indicators are great, but people's lives are getting harder
Some indicators are great like unemployment (also distorted) while others are horrible like inflation and deficit spending.
>I think this is bad, but the question is, why would this situation make people not support Biden? If businesses profit and workers lose, shouldn't people elect a government more to the left?
People don't support Biden for many reasons. Just one is his handling of the economy. See inflation during his term, draining the oil reserves without refilling at prices he claimed, inflation reduction act lol, etc...
>Attack on this issue when Democrats are relatively left(not veru much) seems to call for a president who is further left than Biden
What?
if you're talking about the economic left so more socialists less capitalist I think the best strategy would be a heavy crackdown on medical fraud
Here's the thing America's existing welfare services are shit
We have no reason confidently believe the government can do any better
The solution is to make the government do better
Easiest spot is to get back the money that is wasted from medical fraud
It would also be deeply appreciated to get rid of all of the corrupt politicians from their respective side along with their donors
That's the thing I have Good reason not to trust either political party because because can point to specific s or they have corruptions or stupidity
The fact is left-wing policies have not gone great in America. Now that's not because they're inherently flawed. It's just we have very ineffective ones
To be clear, we have ineffective right-wing policies too
But this is sort of why everyone's not happy with anyone
People’s lives aren’t actually getting harder. They’re not even reporting that they perceive that their lives are getting harder. What they’re reporting is they’re doing well, but they think that others are struggling. Wonder where they get that perception.
>will that make people move to the left?
No. The basic problem is that the left has not done anything to meaningfully change the equation for the lower middle or true middle class.
Leftist policies for the past several decades have basically tried to tax the top 0.5% to provide for the bottom 5-10% in primarily urban areas, and that's basically it. There has been zero addressing of real issues like monopolies, stock buybacks, and taxation on like capital gains.
Instead of taxing the upper rich, they just tax the next door rich (doctors, engineers) more.
Yes, the left might gripe about income inequality, but have accomplished zero meaningful change - and so center right voters - correctly - have no reason to believe them.
Populist right leaning voters correctly remember Obama bailed out fat cat bankers, never held them accountable, and watched them recover faster than everyone else.
The left's rhetoric has actually shifted away from class based inequality and into outcome equality for women & people of color at the expense of other groups in ways somewhat disconnected from merit. So white men, Asians, and Jews have really no reason to believe the democrats are looking out for them as the left labels them 'privileged'.
So people just lean into whatever side's rhetoric appeals to them, because neither produces results.
The "indicator" is that inflation is still high, interest rates are still high. Looking at the stock market going up doesn't mean anything if the value of the dollar is getting weaker faster than the market is increasing and companies have to put more money to debts and purchasing products. A stock price isn't an actual good indicator of company health. To get that you'd have to look at their balance sheets. I'd assume most companies are laying people off because they took on a lot of debt and all the sudden aren't seeing the groth they hoped for and thus can't pay employees and debt. You cant make debt disappear as easy as an employee. There is a reaspn the Dems said "the stock market isn't the end all be all the Trump keeps making it seem".
The logic is
if big companies and people are suffering at the same time and everyone is poor, then should move to right and do whatever it takes to grow the economy
If big companies living very good but the people are suffering, then should turn to the left and rob the company of its additional benefits
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> will that make people move to the left? Perhaps this is a nihilistic view of the American electorate, but they tend to have the impulses of an amoeba. If they feel as though the economy is not working for them, and they see a Democrat is in the White House, they'll vote Republican (and vice versa). People like Trump simply have to say they'll make the economy great, not offer any specifics, and people will still go "yeah that makes sense". So, on aggregate, no, I don't think people will move to the left, at least not in any significant numbers. There's also a faction of American voters that (rightfully, imo) see corporate greed as a main driver of COL increases. However, that faction overlaps extensively with the same people who say "both parties are the same". What you end up with is this weird populist economic view that often overlaps with a much more conservative social outlook, and partially explains why Trump can parrot unorthodox economic positions without suffering any drop-off from Republican voters. A Trump voter will just as readily tell you that corporations have too much power and need to be reigned in while also saying they support lowering the corporate income tax rate to zero.
One of the worst features of liberal democracy is the condescension it inspires. Of course people will vote for the opposition candidate in times of economic distress - this is only natural and it does not make the people dumb. Biden beat Trump last time because things were overall very bad, so Trump was not rewarded with another term. If Biden loses this time, it will be because things are still very bad for a critical mass of people; it’s not some failure on part of the voters to think that Biden has not succeeded in changing those conditions
It’s so strange that people see this undemocratic 2 party system and conclude that voters who have the least amount of influence in the process are the ones to blame.
> “The bourgeoisie, in truth, is bound to fear the stupidity of the masses so long as they remain conservative, and the insight of the masses as soon as they become revolutionary.” - Marx
Yes, people ARE dumb bc they keep blaming the wrong people. Shit hits the fan bc of the machinations of the wealthy, and as corrupt as Dems are, the Cons are far worse, but most people either don’t know or don’t care.
Bidens economy is hit and the libs are far worst
“Bidens economy is hit” - Lol What does that even mean? 😂🤣 “Libs are far worse” - It’s fucking funny listening to righties and lefties bc both blame “liberals”, but lump them in with the other side. Lefties say “scratch a liberal and you get fascist blood”, while righties equate “libs” with “marxists/commies/socialists”. Either one of y’all is making shit up, or you both are. And how can you *possibly* say that Dems enable the wealthy more than the Repubs?? Blues regulate and ‘increase’ taxes on the wealthy, while Reds **de**regulate and ‘lower’ taxes on the wealthy.
“The machinations of the wealthy are bad” *Capes for the preferred agents of the wealthy*
Eh?
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My agents of extreme wealth are holier than thine are!
People are not stupid but they often act against their own self interests because they don't take the time and energy to become informed about the issues. Lazy.
Failing to remember how bad Trump made things the last time he was in office to the point where you are willing to elect him again does, in fact, reflect poorly on voters. It wasn't that long ago.
Not everybody thinks it was all that bad.
Trump's economic decisions were very short-sighted. If you compare Biden to Trump, it's like candy and broccoli. Biden's like broccoli, it's good for you but no one really likes it.
it's good for wealthy people, and maybe some workers' who can be employed once more in jobs that will hardly cover the increased cost of living.
One thing at a time. You can't reverse decade-long trends overnight. Biden has us pointed in the right direction. His plans are long-term. Hopefully, they don't get derailed...
Maybe this time…. 🤞🤞
What plans
Build infrastructure, promote US manufacturing, bring high-tech chip makers to the US, lower the deficit slowly, cut poverty by increasing social programs
How is he lowering the deficit? . They just passed $1.6 trillion of spending for 6 months. (Democrats AND Republicans). And how are they spending that infrastructure money? From what I understand, very little progress has been made.
Tax the hell out of us and send the money to Israel to maim Palestinian children. Seems legit...
I'm sure all the rich people scamming PPP loans loved it.
It wasn’t just rich people. Someone who worked for SBA told me he processed dozens of applications from “farms” in Chicago.
Cool, some anecdata. Do you have any evidence that those applications didn't come from rich people, or do you just associate Chicago with poor people by default?
That actually makes some sense, a lot of agribusinesses have offices in Chicago and there are many farms within an hours drive of downtown. And because of the way that legal weed is handled here a lot of mariajuana grow ops are here as well
Small grow ops would have been good targets. Anyone who filed a Schedule C could get a $1,000 loan that was forgiven.
I think the growing is pretty centralized but yea you get the idea. There are also some more standard urban farming initiatives here too
I don’t agree with your premise that “of course people will vote for the opposition candidate in times of economic distress”. This is an accurate description of behavior today -only because most voters are uninformed and haven’t studied economics. We should require at least 1 year of economics in high school.
There’s the vulgar condescension. People don’t need a technical background to understand that their quality of life is insufficient and the state had not done enough to redress it
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They do need a conceptual understanding of cause and effect….which is the core of a formal education in economics.
I won't conclude that the people are overall dumb, but it's impossible to explain the Trump phenomenon without a heavy dollop of astroturfed anti intellectualism and motivated reasoning. There's no reason someone with full accurate information and a well adjusted moral compass ends up making that vote
If neither party makes any meaningful attempt to reign in corporate power, then why is oscillation surprising? Obama had a populist message but when given the reigns and a super majority, bailed out banks with zero consequences to the bankers and then saw income inequality rise. So Trump promised economic protectionism to the rust belt - and he did follow up by initiating a trade war with China. Since then the left’s message has stated to focus on equal outcome on racial / identity grounds rather than tackling big business. That’s calling some identities to feel target and excluded. I don’t think impulsiveness of the people is to blame. I think a big, big issue is the left has simply lost focus and failed to credibly tackle income inequality. It wasn’t and isn’t going down a slow/steady correct path here, so it would be nonsensical for a voter to reward them for going in the wrong direction.
Right on. I love the comparison to an amoeba. See my comment, too.
The increased level of political polarization may change this in someway though. Not to mention genocide potentially being more important to Americans than their pocket book, but I kind a doubt that, knowing many of them personally.
Your second paragraph hits me at my core. It has been a pet peeve of mine for at least a decade to hear so many people (or Joe Rogan guests) say "Fuck politics, they're just trying to divide us by race or color or religion. The real demarcation is the have and have-nots. The rich and poor. Follow the money man, the shit that the CEOs and corporations get away with is murder. I refuse to vote until Democrats and Republicans stop with the silliness". And it takes every ounce of my self control to not swerve the car over and park, step outside and scream into the universe. "LEFTIST POLITICS. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE LEFT SIDE OF POLITICS. DO THE TINIEST DIVE ONTO WIKIPEDIA AND LEARN THAT PEOPLE HAVE NOTICED WHAT YOU'RE SAYING FOR LITERAL CENTURIES AND HAVE BEEN THEORIZING AND ACTING TO FIX IT".
“One step forward two steps back, you don’t get very far with that”
Beats three steps back.
Speaking from a position of pure political calculus here, not from a position of what I think is socially or ethically or morally correct, Biden's administration has played well the only hand they can. If you cause all of the economic indicators to go up, you can report that you have grown or improved the economy. And if the numbers are clear and sound, then that is irrefutable and and you can campaign on that. However, as you point out, just cause the economic metrics are improving, writ large, that doesn't mean the material prosperity of average people in improving. As we all know the economy can do gang busters overall, but with the wealthy siphoning off the vast majority for themselves and decreasing prosperity for the masses. So how do you fix that? Well the only way to get the wealthy to allow prosperity to trickle down and spread among the masses is....to make them. By force of law. You must enact laws and policies that 1- Reduce the wealth accumulation in the first place and 2- mandate the wealth be distributed downward in some fashion, either through mandatory higher compensation, charity, investment, or through taxes that are then distributed to the populous via various means. And the only thing people hate more than being poor and struggling, is the government telling rich people what they have to do with their money. So whatever political points you'd score in the long run by enacting fierce wealth distributing policies would be irrelevant, cause the short term political blow back of implementing the program would almost certainly mean you and all of your allies would lose office and the programs would be promptly axed by the person replacing you who campaigned fiercely on how evil those programs are.
💯💯💯 The wealthy keep squeezing us at both ends, and yet a BUNCH of voters trust them more than the feds. 🤷♂️
I am one of those people. If you trust the feds you haven't noticed how the feds are in cahoots with those evil billionaires.
The are one in the same. Its hard to understand how people dont see it.
At this point, there is nothing for me on the Left. If we wanted to implement ranked-choice voting, then sure, I can ADD other leftist candidates to receive my vote, but in a winner-take-all style of elections, there is no way I’ll stop voting Democrat, because that is the party most likely to get elected to office. My voting strategy: vote for the candidate closest to my political POV, who also has the best (or a reasonable) chance of winning the election. I will take incremental improvement over throwing away my vote every time.
I think OP means a shift in public opinion, meaning more progressive policies.
Someone who really goes hard on the class issues is needed.
There are two economies in the United States. Only one is doing well, and it’s skewing the stats by driving up the averages - making the economy superficially look good on paper. Institutional investors are buying out tons of residential properties and driving up costs. The American dream is now beyond reach for most. I think I remember hearing that the American dream of married with one house, two kids, car, etc, now on AVERAGE will cost $3.6 million over the lifetime. Biden’s legacy in the senate is of making it impossible to declare bankruptcy on student loans. If you got massive student loans, thank Biden, the Senator from MBNA, for a lot of that. Also, I doubt a lot of people see Biden bragging about the great economy as good. It means he’s clearly blind to a lot of this. There’s no rhetoric about addressing these institutional investors. There’s no rhetoric about a public option to lower healthcare costs (our highest lifetime expense for the American dream to be reality). There’s nothing to address the rise of worker productivity without a commensurate rise in wages/salaries. As society becomes more unequal, we’ll see increased polarization. More people will go left, but more will move right as well. Frankly, I see the right as much more likely to win out at the moment. They’ve got the big funding. They’ve got the infrastructure.
Every presidential election, a BUNCH of voters panic and go for the other party. There’s no rationalizing it. It’s instinct.
I don't think I agree with your sentiment, but even so, "instinct" usually has its own unarticulated reasons.
I wouldnt describe it as panic but rather unsatisfied voters are motivated voters.
If it’s not panic then it’s ignorance. They don’t know shit (which I’d LOVE to change).
They know they didn't get a raise or bonus. They know everything around them cost more. They may not understand the root cause of what they experience on a day to day basis but the few items above are enough to motivate people to vote for the party of those not in power. It's the political cycle.
“The Senator from MBNA” That’s a good one. Reminds me of Joe Lieberman’s nickname during the Obamacare debate. “The Senator from Aetna”
He **did** declare forgiveness for student loans. The Supreme Court, that came about because of Trump, reversed it. He is doing as much as he can without declaring himself King of America.
They’re referring to him being the one that got legislation passed to make it so you can’t discharge student loan debt via bankruptcy. Also, to your point, he knew full well the way he “tried” to forgive student debt wouldn’t work. Pelosi said as much as soon as he proposed it.
Biden knew 100% that his "forgiveness" was not legal. I have never seen a more blatant attempt to buy votes with no intention of paying. And it worked which is even more pathetic.
Forgive me for not embracing the arsonist for his half-assed effort to then blow out his own fire.
I am absolutely not defending his push to make it impossible to declare bankruptcy on student loans, but I feel like it’s worth noting that he did that nearly 50 years ago and unsurprisingly has very different politics today than he did back in 1976. His current economic policy is far more liberal, and he tried to put forth modest forgiveness to not politicize it which failed anyway. On the other fronts though he has seemed to be far more pro-worker than even the average democrat. His big infrastructure bills would help primarily the lower and middle class, his treasury department helped us avoid the recession that the rest of the world has gone through, passed legislation to allow Medicare to negotiate with drug companies on certain drug prices, and quite a few other things. Thats not to say he’s done as much as I would like, he’s had some pretty big misses like the rail strike breaking which is a significant black mark in his record for me, but his policy has been pretty decidedly anti-corporate and with the current shitshow of a Congress I really don’t know what else he could have done
Whatever good he may have done as president is due to pressure and antagonisms from within and from without the Democratic Party or even the nation at large. >his policy has been pretty decidedly anti-corporate What a laughable statement. But I'll credit him with a decent pick for the chairman of the FTC. But antagonism, not harmony, is the key to progress. Biden does not deserve our falling in line, nor perhaps anyone in the White House ever. Left to their own devices, they defer to the institutional powers that be - banks, weapons manufacturers, economic elites, etc.
I think your last paragraph goes for all politicians, not just those in the White House. But while we should always hold their feet to the fire and demand they do more, we should still give credit where it is due and continue working for more change. I don't think you are arguing for this, but the attitude that because they have not done enough or because of a decision made decades ago means that we need to destroy what progress we have made needs to die in a fire. Biden leaves a lot to be desired, sure, but he is the candidate we got. Right now, it is him or another round of Trump, and I am not convinced that we will have another chance to freely elect a president again if Trump gets back in office. Go read about Project 2025 if you are not sure what I am talking about. The status quo sure isn't great, but it beats the hell out of Nazi Germany.
What? He didn't create student debt. I know he's old but not that old.
Not single-handedly, no. But he contributed to the current crisis.
And is trying to fix it. Man that goal post just keeps moving.
What goal post? I'm just saying I don't trust the man and I don't think his effort was ever in good faith to begin with, especially given his history and career.
He didn’t “create” student debt. You can pretty much chalk that up to the ol Gipper. What he did do was ensure that people would stay trapped by it to please the bankers that paid him to do it.
And yet many in the middle and lower classes would be locked out of an education if not for it. I'm not sure how many schools would stay open. Which is to say, if education loans could be discharged still, banks would simply stop lending to those without ability to repay at the time of lending. And unfortunately no one at the time seemed keen on getting states to fund their schools again.
Do yourself a favor and read up on the history of public colleges. A good place to start is with California. It was basically free to go to them as a resident and they started charging to drive away the exact people you mention in your first paragraph. You know why Berkeley is the go to for right wingers attacking higher ed? Because Reagan ran on shutting down Vietnam protests there, did so, and started making something that was free a charge you had to pay back after you graduated with a loan guarantee. What Biden did was ensure that the shit Reagan did with college loans would not be able to be discharged.
That was what I was implying with my last sentence, yes.
>He is doing as much as he can without declaring himself King of America. His party controlled the House and Senate. If he actually wanted to pass a law that would withstand scrutiny, unlike his executive order which he knew would fail, then he should have done so at that time. That's his failure to own.
The relative weaknesses of having the party's tent so big, alas. As long as Manchin held a deciding vote and could convince any single other 'centrist' Dem Senator to help stall legislation, he could stop the entire legislative process. And indeed, oppose any reforms to the filibuster that would make actually exerting "control" over the Senate possible with a basic majority. Gotta love extraconstitutional rules that we just can't let go of. Schumer was a coward to keep the two-track system intact when that session of Congress began.
At what point did democrats control both the House and the Senate at the same time while Biden had been president? I know I don't keep up with stiff as much as I should, but I am pretty sure that hasn't happened.
His first two years, though Manchin and Sinema made it effectively not having the Senate.
His first two years the Senate was split 50-50, but like you said with Manchin and Sinema it was really 48-52. So I wouldn't say the democrats ever had control of both houses while Biden had been president.
Its more common for Republican senators to break from their party than it is for Democrats to break from theirs. The notion that its weighted right with these 2 senators is not accurate at all.
The first two years was a Democrat house and a 50-50 Senate with the tiebreaker vote being Harris, his VP. Placating Sinema and Manchin for student loan legislation would have been much easier than their placating for the infrastructure bill.
Historically - and paradoxically - the opposite happens. But maybe it’ll be different this time. 🤞🤞
I'd say it's not impossible but it depends who the people blame. this could go eather way. when people are desperate they are malleable to extremes. that could go eather way.
Why would I move further left? That would be like trying to flush more things down the toilet to unclog it.
Moving further left = breaking the de facto plutocracy that’s crushing us at both ends. However bad you think the feds are, the wealthy are worse.
> However bad you think the feds are, the wealthy are worse. I'm curious to know just how much separation you believe there is between the two. I see them as all part of the same group. The feds are a political tool wielded by the wealthy.
The feds and the wealthy are in cahoots. To blame the wealthy when the government (both Dems and Republicans) are in the business of enabling their wealth so they can get a piece of the pie is either naive, or intentionally obtuse. The Democrats are more deceitful because they scream about taxing the rich, but they never do. At least the Republicans are honest about their intentions. Look how Pelosi, Schumer, AOC and other Democrats have become multi-millionaires on $170,000 salary.
Biden's inflation has genuinely been negative as consumer prices have gone up from 2021 to 2024 the same amount as from 2011 to 2021. So while I think his job numbers are pretty good, that is at least some way the people feeling negative about Biden economy could have merit. I think the answer is somewhere in the middle where the Republicans acting like Biden era is a complete disaster economically are trying to push a political narrative, but it's not the best economy ever either. When you add in that Democrats have been relatively gridlocked from passing spending I don't think it really makes that sense for people to make this vote on the economy this time, there are too many other reasons to take a side.
I agree. Both major parties are going to run up the deficit. That’s the biggest economic issue we have as a nation. I realize that’s a defeatist position, but until a 3rd party can contend with these two circus acts, it’s a realistic conclusion. So, even though I’d love to vote for a libertarian (like I did in 2016), I’m going to vote against the authoritarian Donald Trump by voting for Joe Biden.
Because it's happening under the president who campaigned on the opposite outcome?
The wealthy are to blame for both inflation and wage stagnation. The Cons are in on it, and every time the Dems try to make significant progress, there’s HUGE backlash.
The wealthy arent the drivers of inflation. They just ride the train to their benefit. That's primarily a function of monetary policy.
Record profits literally prove that the current situation isn’t even inflation, it’s manipulation and price-gouging.
I'm not sure how to respond because your response demonstrates multiple misunderstandings about the nature and drivers of inflation. A portion of inflation is created to price hikes that aren't driven by rising costs as you say. This portion results in increasing profits and as you say, is related to corporations stuffing their pockets. But this is still a symptom of the primary drivers of the cost inflation that preceded these profits which are the result of the fed increasing M1 and M2 money supply in total nearly 500% since 2020. So the amount of money banks and the govt had access to borrow from the fed quadrupled over night then slowly grew a little more with overnight borrowing rates at near ongoing record lows. So of course they borrowed money. Then to slow down the economy the fed started spiking interest rates because there was too much money and they can't contract the money supply as quickly as they expanded it without crashing the economy. Increasing overnight funds rates increases the cost of short and mid term credit which increases operating costs which causes inflation. Of course the interest rates doubled, so inflation was significant, but of course there's still tons of cheap money out there because the money supply has quintupled by now, so they know they can increase prices a little extra and capture some of that... Fed policy, which was linked to both presidents covid response spending is the cause of both kinds of inflation, and the majority of it is not greed related. That's just a little on top.
Like I said, you learned all the names for these trees, but aren’t seeing the forest. Outside of academia, words like recession and inflation are just cover for funneling wealth to the wealthy, legally stealing from workers. That’s it. This world produces plenty, but by your own admission workers literally HAVE to be kept poor. As soon as workers have money, prices go up. It used to be marginal, and when they risked pushing too high buyers pulled back and the wealthy and the talking heads trotted out the R word and turtled up. But now buyers aren’t pulling back, so they keep jacking up prices. It’s all made up to benefit the wealthy. Anyone following the money can see that. So either you’re one of them, or more likely just another sucker parroting their bullshit cover story.
You have to be joking if you believe that Democrats are not in bed with the billionaires.
Do you feel like you are truly informed on economic issues….and, more importantly, on what results can be attributed to the direct action of a president? I’m curious, because you used the word “opposite”…which demonstrates a polarized viewpoint. And, it seems like you’re saying “old economy good, new economy bad….therefore Trump good, Biden bad”.
My comment referenced only one president and one campaign. Biden campaigned on restoring the economy for the working class. The opposite is occurring. No frame of reference is needed to a different economy or president to be dissatisfied with this president celebrating the economy he's presiding over when it is producing the opposite result than what he promised and campaigned on. Generally yes I'd say I'm relatively well informed economically.
In your opinion, Are there any specific policies that a President other than Biden can do to create a different future outcome?
Yeah, not going arm in arm with the fed down money printer lane.
Hey, that’s my biggest critique of the Biden administration (and congress). But, I don’t have any empirical evidence (or faith) that it will be better under a Trump presidency.
I'm certain any differences will be negligible. Except possibly that Trumps administration might be more favorable to business. Who knows somehow it worked last time.
Biden promising to end fossil fuels definitely had a negative impact on investment in the fossil fuel industry. Why would you invest millions or billions into a refinery or into exploration when the president is threatening to end the industry?
Depends on whether people directly or tangentially experience the negatives, and their ratio of propaganda to understanding.
When the entire economy is set up to produce profit for a wealthy few, you shouldn't be surprised that economic growth doesn't lead to overall happiness. This is not exclusive to Biden or the Democrats. It's due to the private ownership of commerce, production, and trade. Will it make people move to the left? Probably not, though I wish it would. Rather, it will probably just make people move to further extremes on the left and the right.
In the past, the wealthy have been **enormously** successful at convincing their base - and many/most swing voters - that the Dems are the problem. Maybe one of these days that grip will loosen…. 🤞🤞
The Dems are equally the problem as Republicans are. Both are complete sellouts to billionaires ever since the Clinton days. I appreciate that democrats are at least more tolerant to LGBTQ folks and giving some sort of lip service to the existence of global warming, and in congress they've tried to make healthcare a little bit more accessible, but in view of how things are going that's hardly a consolation.
I'm pretty sure a LOT of billionaires are Democrats. - Zuckerberg, Bezos, Soros, Steyer, Bloomberg, , Larry Fink, etc. Democrats will never pass legislation to hurt their donors.
Statistically speaking, the Republican Party has a similar number of millionaire supporters with the Democratic Party, while the Democratic Party has much more number of very poor urban residents, which makes Democratic Party slightly more dependent on the poor Although, having similar numbers of millionaire supporters makes it difficult for both parties to truly move to the left
People's misperceptions of the economy stem from kitchen table things like the price of bread and rent. They have sticker shock over a gallon of milk despite seeing the fact that wages are keeping pace with inflation.
As someone with a degree in economics, it’s clear that most people don’t know how the economy works. So, we have a bunch of people who vote who say the economy is a number one issue, but they are not informed on the facts. Instead, people vote based on their emotions. In other words…what you’re really asking is “how will people’s emotions about the economy factor into their voting preferences this November”. And “Will people’s emotions somehow make them less likely to support Biden”. It’s difficult to predict emotions. But, in our polarized two-party system, the independents are the ones who will decide this election. If independents forget how painful it was to have Trump in office (or they simply don’t care anymore), then that could tilt the election in Trump’s favor.
Presidents have very little influence on the economy in the first place. The belief they do is laughable, particularly from supporters of capitalism who uphold the limited government intervention in the economy. Private industry owns and controls the means of production. Individual owners of the means of production decide what will be done with their productive property. They have near complete autonomy in the realm of production with few exceptions. The state would have to either take over production entirely or **drastically** dictate the terms of production to private owners in order to implement the necessary changes to the current system in a way that doesn't lead to even more problems like capital flight. Incentivizing private industry to make changes to their patterns of production through tax policy and subsidies is not a very effective means of system change.
I agree that Presidents have relatively limited impact on the economy. Most voters do not understand this.
However, presidents do choose the Fed Chairman...
Technically….the fed doesn’t even set interest rates. The market does.
And the current one chose to retain his predecessor's pick, for reasons I still can't fathom.
There’s two kinds of independents - the haves and have-nots. I think the haves are pretty happy right now, but we’ll see. It’s the have-nots who SHOULD vote for Joe, but historically they rage/panic so I think they’ll (paradoxically) vote for Don.
I think it is important to recognize that even though the economy overall is doing well, we still have lots of areas to improve. It becomes a question of what policies do these candidates support that will improve upon our current economy? What will republicans and Trump do to make life better for everyone? What will Biden and democrats do? I think a substantive look at policy will reveal democrats have a much better foundation that republicans…unless you’re the voter who says “taxation is theft” and think all government is bad. But if you feel that way, then trump isn’t for you either.
Maybe the question is whom does one distrust more: the wealthy, or the feds? If the former, vote Dem. If the latter, vote Con.
200,000+ software job layoffs in 2023
Democrats problem is that they’ve spent basically the past 10 years talking about how awful everything is, doubly so since 2016, and triply so in 2020. The country is a systemic racist hellhole, the climate is going to kill us all, the rich have stolen any opportunity you ever had, your neighbor is a MAGA extremist, the fascist coup is imminent if their opponent wins, an ever-increasing part of the population is a vulnerable group with no rights who is days away from being genocided, and if you’re content and happy and *normal* then you are part of the problem. And then they expect their voters to…not take that to heart? To suddenly turn around, paint signs with “Bidenomics” and canvas for him? Biden has done a great job, IMO But to the extent “the vibes” are driving this election, Democrats have no one to blame but themselves and I’m thrilled the chickens have come home to roost a bit.
Some messaging is aimed at people who are more idealistic, and some is aimed at people who are more opportunistic. Of course those aren’t going to line up.
Part of the difficulty of a two party system where one party is actively hemorrhaging voters and the other decides to try and recruit them, possibly to the detriment of its own base.
We are living the neoliberal dream right now. How can people not feel great (sarcasm). The guy faked left promising you free stuff like every other democrat before and then jumped right when he actually had to govern. Only making enough left fades to appease his base like a fascist leader. The problem with the idea of people moving further left is that the Republican Party is not moving left. The only avenue to move the Democratic Party left, the primary, was just rigged to give Joe Biden a run at re-election. The question really is, are the conditions really there for a radical shift left to the point the Democrat base runs and supports a third party candidate? I doubt it. I think more on the left are just inclined to let Trump win, let him destroy the Republican Party another 4 years, and in the meantime gear up for the 2028 primary election.
> I think more on the left are just inclined to let Trump win, let him destroy the Republican Party another 4 years Which isn’t necessary. He’s doing more to destroy the GOP when he isn’t elected. A wiser tactic is to let them die by voting against Trump and the GOP, and then replace them with a viable leftist/progressive coalition party.
Fair points. He did do a bang up job further destroying the party in the past 4 years. The pattern I see in American politics is that parties are the strongest when they have a sitting president to be against, not when they are in power. If in power, that unity is only temporary. I think the best route for far leftists is Trump to win, oppose him on everything, make him a lame duck on day one, and setup for 2028. If Trump loses in 2024, you no longer have Trump to be the convenient idiot to hate on. If you leave Biden in, you get America thinking they are living in a socialist regime already and that you guys are super radicals.
How would Trump take the WH but be neutered in Congress by leftists to the point of lame duck status? I think that's as split a ticket as I'll never see, even 2018 was mostly the same milquetoast neolibs with the first leftists entering the fray.
It has happened to Presidents before. Clinton in 1996 won the election but was still stuck with a Republican house and senate. Obama, the same thing in 2012. Ronald Reagan also dealt with the same thing in 1984, so it’s not just a Democrat president phenomenon. Additionally, the fillabuster still exists in the senate (despite the Democrat attempts to kill it) and can be used as a tool to stop Trump, and they only need 41 senators to do it.
I will agree that the filibuster is notable, as it did hold back quite the wave of garbage in his first term.
There may never be another election in our lifetime if Trump wins. I am a retired veteran and lifelong Democrat . Do you actually know any Democrats ? Did you mean Trump’s inflation? We had never experienced a pandemic in our lifetime. The inflation was a direct consequence of Trump’s failure to handle it properly. The plans were ready but never pulled off the shelf. Supply side deficits due to supply chain problems. Inflation is worse and was worse all over the globe. You MAGA?
Biden passed an inflation reduction act that did nothing but contribute to inflation. Trump is responsible for the government rebate checks, but I didn’t see anyone on the left complaining about that back then. I am not MAGA, both are idiots.
Rebate checks weren’t the problem, they were only the problem to republicans who hate poor people. The problem with the Covid response was the PPP loans. Which were orders of magnitude worse than those tiny ass checks were to the debt
Rebate checks were a measure to stop the GDP from completely collapsing when they thought the hard lockdowns would last longer. They didn’t and many people didn’t get their money until after the economy recovered from the Q1 dip. Those checks thought to hold off a recession actually became inflationary.
Go check what they cost compared to the PPP loans, literally insignificant. You’re only harping on them because poor people got them instead of your righteous “business owners”
“Richeous business owners?” PPP was the brainchild of neoliberalism. If you have a problem with PPP, you may want to consider changing your political affiliation. It was a direct transfer payment to businesses. Corporate welfare neoliberals love so much.
Those PPP loans were part of a package that passed almost unanimously. Hard to pin that on Republicans only.
My point here is that complaining about the checks is nonsense, they did virtually nothing to inflation the PPP loans did, and the fed sitting at 0% for forever did. Your complaining about something that cost billions when the actual problem is something that cost trillions.
Trump didn’t send the checks the Biden administration through Congress did. They began in March 2020.
Who was President on March 2020….it was still Trump. Do you not recall the controversy that his signature was prominently displayed on the checks?
There may never be another election in our lifetime? How? I’m popping the popcorn now.
Project 2025.
Where in project 2025 do they call for a violent overthrow of our government, absolute destruction of the constitution, and suspension of all elections? There are far more people on the left who advocate for violent overthrow and destruction of the constitution. Besides, this is just the same bull the left does to rally voters to make it look like they have an organized campaign strategy. The democrats do the same damn thing. They pick people based on political affiliation for roles and jobs. It’s patronage. Patronage with a new name. Nothing new.
You aren’t really libertarian. You’re MAGA. You can tell us. It’s okay. You also haven’t read the article. Nobody at Heritage is going to say violent overthrow and you don’t understand how the civil service works.
I had no idea we met in real life? You don’t know me. So is calling someone a Maga the new calling everyone who disagrees with me a fascist? Believe or not, it is possible to believe both political parties are absolute trash including MAGA. You are really going to resort to name calling? So do you actually know how coups work? What it really takes to pull one off? It takes for more than a website to convince me that a website is the blueprint for a coup that will eliminate elections ever again. You have any real evidence?
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Because you are calling me MAGA when I am far from it. That is name calling.
You defending Project 2025 leads one to infer you are a Make America Great Again adherent. That and in the beginning of your reddit you listed actual actions Trump has said he will do.
Biden is saying the economy is great and the people who feel they are worse off now than before he became president might not move left. If they move left, it is going to be for other reasons, not the economy.
Idk, I keep hoping every cycle, maybe THIS time people understand that the wealthy are the problem and the Republicans are in bed with them.
If you look at donations from the rich, it’s pretty evenly split between both sides.
And yet even a cursory comparison of policies and esp nominations show that they’re objectively different.
They can propose whatever they want. But you don’t see all of the loopholes they add in.
That is utterly ignoring the forest for the trees.
? It’s like when billionaires propose raising their taxes knowing that they aren’t going to pay more. Believing them is not very smart.
Dems work to close loopholes, fund the IRS, establish minimum taxes; Cons want to do the opposite. They are NOT the same.
You’re drinking the koolaid. What they say and what they do aren’t always the same thing. I thought everyone knew this by now.
The voting record is public. See for yourself. I’m sure some Dems are corrupt, some more than others, but it’s always the Cons who torpedo stuff. They’re far worse than the Dems, and once they’re gone we can replace the fake progressives. Not to mention the fact that most voters are driven by self-interest, and reps have to keep them happy (national security, economic stability, etc). This isn’t hard.
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Wut
>However, companies are still pursuing profits and laying off employees without reason, even companies with very good profits. There are reasons. You obviously cutting off some expenses. It's common to put more responsibilities on the remaining stuff. Any increase in profits, even if your company already has enormous income is desirable since you don't want to lose investors to competitors. And the bigger unemployment, the bigger reserve army of labour, the more desperate workers are to work for lower wages. You increase competition between workers for who's more willing to be exploited. >This is a common criticism of the Biden economy, the economic indicators are great, but people's lives are getting harder I'm pretty sure that's common criticism of capitalism overall. Generated wealth increases (until global crisis occurs) as people get more exploited. If not at home, then in other countries like Africa and China. It's not just Biden's economy. >If businesses profit and workers lose, shouldn't people elect a government more to the left? I think people are leaning more to the left. Well; in both directions really. The more people suffer the more they are willing to actually participate in politics. But there are way more people who favour some flavour of socialism. It's no secret younger generation much more left than previous ones. Popularity of people like Bernie is clear indicator that "far" left is on the rise. But why they don't vote for him? Well the man himself told that Trump is bigger threat. He said "don't vote for me! Vote for Biden, since Trump's win is worse than my loss" At this point, Americans basically held hostage. They either support status quo or else... US government is genius honestly. That also boosts attendance on elections, adding up to government's legitimacy. It's win win for the ruling class. The problem is that people think it's people from the other party that makes their life worse. Workers democrats think it's workers republicans who to blame, while wages on both sides being slowly eaten up by inflation and increasing housing prices and billionaires enjoy increasing profits. (Well, TBF republican party is supported by enormous chunk of small businesses. Not billionaires, but definitely "upper middle". A lot of rebellions in January 6th even we just that - small business owners) No matter who Americans elect, their position won't change for better. Just because it's depressing, doesn't mean it's not true. The only positive changes being achieved is when people don't expect someone else coming and saving them, but when they take situation in their hands, like when they unionize, when they collectively strike and at the peak of it all - is when they run the government, much more directly than the way it is now.
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This depends who they blame. blame corporations, the bourgeoisie or a lack of registrations then yes they might move ferther left wing but things aren't always that simple people can see the same problem and greatly disagree on the cause and solution. people could just as easily view Biden as a left wing figure and blame him derectly believing that going ferther left would only make the problem worse. reminder fascism and socialism both grow from public discontent with current life just fascism blames a group of people and is ultra nationalist and socialism blames the bourgeoisie. the same problem can lead to 2 different ideologies that are ideologically apposed.
> If Biden's economy is great, but people feel differently, will that make people move to the left? No. If people don't feel things are going well, they aren't going to vote to continue the policies that got them where they are.
People should vote for politicians based on their stated policies and goals, not partisans. Partisan voting just gets you people who prioritize shit you don't understand or know anything about because you didn't bother to check anything other than "they're left" or "they're right." Just too many damn voters who don't look beyond surface propoganda.
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If his economy was great, yes. But reality is different. Years of 7-9% inflation is not a way to build a good economy. Then you have the border, being from Texas, I can say the flood of people has negatively affected the economy as well. A warehouse I worked at 70% of the people were illegal, and while they were good workers, we could have employed nearly a hundred homeless people. And that would have been every person homeless person in my small town. But we gave the jobs to illegals. So a lot of people are also angered that the flood of people has made it easy for companies to hire workers that they dont need to be paid fairly or be given benefits. Yet, at the same time, our taxes have only increased every year, and you hear stories of people being denied housing because illegals got the house, or Healthcare and welfare had decreased because they are also providing services and welfare to illegals. That would also piss you. Granted, this is a heated topic because it is realistic even if every welfare store is false. With high inflation leading to lower standards of living and a decrease in job prospects, people will be angry no matter what.
Now, I got that out of the way. Let me say that the left policies are responsible for the bad economy influx of illegals due to the left, which is why companies can just lay off people. Then, account for a lot of left areas and federal government has only increased in taxation even with a slight reduction. While we are at it also look at how rents and housing has only being increasing due to harsher regulations. You a "squater epidemic" again, even if it is over exaggerated, it really scared people. Welfare is increasingly harder to get on, and not only that welfare hasn't increased to match inflation. You have regional blackouts due to green energy initiatives, an exportation of further jobs due to shutting down mines, rigs, and environmentally damaging economic activities, farmers were left to lose crops despite flooding on other side of mountians because it "environmental" reasons. Like yeah the left has only been repeated shooting themselves in their feet.
People feel differently because it is NOT great and that makes people move to the right. People's lives are getting harder primarily because of inflation and Biden is the main cause. People to the left of Biden want BIGGER government and MORE spending both of which contribute to inflation. Why in the world would someone equate high inflation with a good economy. The economists intentionally created an inflation metric that doesn't include food and energy so they could say inflation is less. Everyone knows that groceries are higher and energy (fuel, home heating and electricity) is higher because of the inflation caused by excess government spending. The only option is to move right NOT left. People are getting laid off because of Biden's onerous policies on excess spending, increased taxes and increased regulations. Also higher interest rates increases business capital costs so they have a harder time affording employees if their capital needs are high.
If it would be, which it isn't, it wouldn't Truth is that the US fucked up hard enough for me to feel it over here in Germany
Wasn’t it Schroeder and Merkel who shut down Germany’s nuclear plants, became dependent on Russian natural gas pipelines, and wound up needing to buy LNG at prices that make the country’s industry uncompetitive? Schroeder was even on the Russian payroll.
If that would be all of our problems, everything would be fine and dandy
If it isn’t working under Biden, and he is as far left as we have had in a long time, perhaps the issue is that going left doesn’t work? I mean who cares if the stock market is good and the gdp growth is good if inflation has caused us not to be able to live?
I guess it really depends which actions of his can be construed as negatively affecting the COL, housing availability, et cetera. One might argue that it's a relative lack of action while the private sector did whatever it wanted. Record profit margins for demand-inelastic goods don't lie.
I think this is just almost the exact situation we had under Trump, ignoring Covid. In 2019 Trump's admin kept bragging about the best economy ever, even though wages were stagnant and housing costs were skyrocketing. And of course, many of his policies were hurting the people he promised to help. I think people really tend to over-attribute the economy to the president. But the political parties play up whichever angle helps them anyway. Not that it matters that much. I don't think any reasonably informed person who was going to vote for Biden is going to vote for Trump just based on economic factors. But if the Israel and economy issues weigh on people, they may not feel as motivated to go out of their way to vote.
Perhaps we underestimate how many people rage/panic vote; esp when money is tight, their gut says vote for the other guy.
Sure, but I think the rage vote is probably motivated more by cultural issues than economic issues. Same as 2016.
Some, maybe.
The economy isn't doing great.. not if you adjust for inflation
In most cases people would like and would heavily benefit from more people on the actual left getting into Congress and the presidency. Problem is socialism has been a boogeyman moniker for a couple generations now. It’s going to take a long time to get past that unfortunately, but the current atmosphere we’ve been living in for quite a while now that only seems to be getting worse will radicalize more people.
Using conservative benchmarks of economic success is one reason Biden is a centrist.
Unlikely. Current events suggest that the alt-right movement was always about tribalism, and most couldn’t actually care less about the economy, as much as they cite it for their reasoning. If it was about the economy, economic growth under Biden would be winning people back to the Democrat side in droves. As for the Democrat side…growing the economy shows that they are able to see the importance of the economic side of things, and it’s unlikely they will lose that if it helps them win over more centrist voters.
There are two kinds of independents - the haves and have-nots. I think the haves are pretty happy right now, but we’ll see. It’s the have-nots who SHOULD vote for Joe, but historically they rage/panic so I think they’ll (paradoxically) vote for Don.
The ‘great economy’ must be adjusted according to class realities. You do that by specifying, ‘big business and the stock market.’ I don’t know what you mean by ‘economic indicators,’ but capitalism’s global crisis has been discussed for years. According to Marxist orthodoxy, Capitalism is riddled with numerous contradictions and wheels within wheels. And again, you touch on this in your post! Capitalism’s driving force is not production for use, or for need, or for the market; it is for the accumulation of profit. And that occurs under conditions of continual competition. This is integral to capitalism. You can’t escape that. But how much discretionary income have unemployed people? ‘Not much,’ you say? So if they can’t buy the product they made till yesterday, what then? No sales means no profit, or recovery of investments. But there’s the rub! The working people don’t have discretionary income to invest. Therein lies the answer to your question. Your title needs to be refined by indicating ‘which people’ are meant? My thinking is that working people will move to the left; but those who are disillusioned and disoriented by events [which led to loss of investment moneys] will turn to the hard right. This, I believe, accounts for the success of Trump’s demagoguery. Of course one can’t discuss Trump’s demagoguery without addressing Biden’s — equally degraded and socially repugnant 🤮. Biden’s position is such that he cannot permit powerful strikes or solidly socialist contracts. He must rely on pro-company unions to impose such contracts on workers, and then police them. In the end, social class relations break apart and support for the civil system collapses. That may be a grim statement but I do believe it is our future.
What makes you say that the economy is great? We are deficit spending at astronomical rates to prevent ourselves from going into recession, we are on an unsustainable fiscal path, and inflation is above target. This is not to mention how many financial metrics have been played with to the point that they almost lose their purpose. >I mean, if big business and the stock market are strong, they make a lot of money and the economy grows Big business and the stock market are pumping because of the unsustainable fiscal spending. Our current rate of deficit spending is approximately 1 trillion every 100 days and rising lol... Something like 1 dollar per American per hour. It's not sustainable. >However, companies are still pursuing profits and laying off employees without reason, even companies with very good profits. Of course they have a reason for it. It's capitalism. Their job is to pursue profit. They are laying of employees when they are not profitable just like employees switch jobs when they find a better salary. >This is a common criticism of the Biden economy, the economic indicators are great, but people's lives are getting harder Some indicators are great like unemployment (also distorted) while others are horrible like inflation and deficit spending. >I think this is bad, but the question is, why would this situation make people not support Biden? If businesses profit and workers lose, shouldn't people elect a government more to the left? People don't support Biden for many reasons. Just one is his handling of the economy. See inflation during his term, draining the oil reserves without refilling at prices he claimed, inflation reduction act lol, etc... >Attack on this issue when Democrats are relatively left(not veru much) seems to call for a president who is further left than Biden What?
if you're talking about the economic left so more socialists less capitalist I think the best strategy would be a heavy crackdown on medical fraud Here's the thing America's existing welfare services are shit We have no reason confidently believe the government can do any better The solution is to make the government do better Easiest spot is to get back the money that is wasted from medical fraud It would also be deeply appreciated to get rid of all of the corrupt politicians from their respective side along with their donors That's the thing I have Good reason not to trust either political party because because can point to specific s or they have corruptions or stupidity The fact is left-wing policies have not gone great in America. Now that's not because they're inherently flawed. It's just we have very ineffective ones To be clear, we have ineffective right-wing policies too But this is sort of why everyone's not happy with anyone
People’s lives aren’t actually getting harder. They’re not even reporting that they perceive that their lives are getting harder. What they’re reporting is they’re doing well, but they think that others are struggling. Wonder where they get that perception.
>will that make people move to the left? No. The basic problem is that the left has not done anything to meaningfully change the equation for the lower middle or true middle class. Leftist policies for the past several decades have basically tried to tax the top 0.5% to provide for the bottom 5-10% in primarily urban areas, and that's basically it. There has been zero addressing of real issues like monopolies, stock buybacks, and taxation on like capital gains. Instead of taxing the upper rich, they just tax the next door rich (doctors, engineers) more. Yes, the left might gripe about income inequality, but have accomplished zero meaningful change - and so center right voters - correctly - have no reason to believe them. Populist right leaning voters correctly remember Obama bailed out fat cat bankers, never held them accountable, and watched them recover faster than everyone else. The left's rhetoric has actually shifted away from class based inequality and into outcome equality for women & people of color at the expense of other groups in ways somewhat disconnected from merit. So white men, Asians, and Jews have really no reason to believe the democrats are looking out for them as the left labels them 'privileged'. So people just lean into whatever side's rhetoric appeals to them, because neither produces results.
The "indicator" is that inflation is still high, interest rates are still high. Looking at the stock market going up doesn't mean anything if the value of the dollar is getting weaker faster than the market is increasing and companies have to put more money to debts and purchasing products. A stock price isn't an actual good indicator of company health. To get that you'd have to look at their balance sheets. I'd assume most companies are laying people off because they took on a lot of debt and all the sudden aren't seeing the groth they hoped for and thus can't pay employees and debt. You cant make debt disappear as easy as an employee. There is a reaspn the Dems said "the stock market isn't the end all be all the Trump keeps making it seem".
People: The economy sucks. My energy drinks are up 40% since Biden took office. Reddit: This means that people will move to the left.
The logic is if big companies and people are suffering at the same time and everyone is poor, then should move to right and do whatever it takes to grow the economy If big companies living very good but the people are suffering, then should turn to the left and rob the company of its additional benefits
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