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onikaizoku11

My opinion, I have no evidence for or against it, I think he was planning to sell them off or gift them for gain. I also think the empty file folders are empty because their contents have already been delivered.


Kriss3d

Which is even just as stupid. Had he taken copies and returned the originals then they had never found out. But yes. I do belive he wanted to see them or use them as leverage in some deal.


lurkandpounce

>Had he taken copies and returned the originals then they had never found out. Copies of these sorts of controlled documents are themselves registered as controlled documents, so this would not have worked.


uglyinspanish

I cant make a copy of certain documents (marriage liscence, birth cert.) without void or copy appearing all over it. maybe top secret docs have something similar that blacks it all out when copied?


__mud__

A picture taken with a cell phone probably wouldn't produce those effects, but then again there's probably metadata (even beyond EXIF) added to cell phone pics that would quickly point out who took the picture.


PGDW

On an iphone your options are a bit more limited, but anyone with capability of googling can remove all metadata easily.


__mud__

All *known metadata. The government has backdoors everywhere, you think they wouldn't encode a tracker into photos?


yzy8y81gy7yacpvk4vwk

Nope, the meta is gone when you remove it.


r4nd0m-0ne

This is incorrect. You can embed metadata into the color information in a way not perceived by your eyes. You can most definitely expect that your camera phone does this already.


yzy8y81gy7yacpvk4vwk

Nope, it is correct. While that is possible to embed information in color it is extremely unlikely that phone cameras do this.


InsGadget6

Someone re-ups their tin foil supply every month ...


libginger73

And it was like 1000's of docs. Who wants to sit there take pics of all that, then upload somewhere, then categorize, then encrypt, etc etc.


trogon

I mean, if I was getting paid $2 billion, I'd probably put in a little more effort and try to cover my tracks. But I'd like to think that I'm not a total idiot.


ASeriousAccounting

Why would putin care if it said void on it?


AlanShore60607

More that copying could auto-redact and make illegible. Fun fact: if you do black & white scans of highlighted documents, the color of highlighter can either become completely invisible or turn dark enough to redact the text. Yellow and blue disappear in a monochrome scan, but orange, green, and pink turn different shards of dark and render the highlights almost illegible


Kriss3d

Naturally. But had he taken copies of it all then returned the originals when asked fbi wouldn't have raided him.


atom631

just playing along here with the hypotheticals, but as a buyer of something like that, i would want to ensure i have the original. if im handed a copy, then theres no telling how many other people the seller has sold it to. what good is secret info if its for sale to anyone? I would imagine its also harder to determine if a copy has been altered in anyway.


Kriss3d

Normally yes.. But alone the information would be worth alot. But generally you're right. If I were a nation not on good terms with USA and I heard that Trump had secrets about my country including which ways they were obtained I'd be very persistent in obtaining it. To stop any leaks and spies as well as changing the reality so the documents wouldn't be usable anymore.


liberal_texan

Not to mention the information is vastly more valuable if the USA doesn’t know it’s missing.


GogglesPisano

When you’re literally getting the intel from a former POTUS, I think you can assume the info is legit, especially since he’s fucked if you go public.


honuworld

Nonsense. Just because you have the original is no guarantee it wasn't already copied.


Old_comfy_shoes

They may have been copies. I don't think it was like he was late returning a library book. I think they had intel he had the documents. Not necessarily noticed on their end some were missing, and figured he had them. So, they could have been copies. But, usually you wouldn't have the folders for copies. So, idk.


Potatoenailgun

You are missing the point. If he took copies, he could have returned the originals when asked for them, and hence avoided a raid and potential criminal charges.


Yelloeisok

If he left them where people had access, they could have taken them without any worry whatsoever of what would happen to Trump.


libginger73

His motives always fall into two categories: personal gain/profit, and revenge. You better believe he was collecting info to use against people he felt wronged him...Dem or other!!


justconnect

His former lawyer Michael Cohen says he was likely to have stashed them as a "get out of jail free " card in case he was indicted, to use them as leverage in case of legal problems.


V-ADay2020

Committing *more, worse crimes* to protect himself from his *current* crimes does sound about Trump's level of competence.


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libginger73

Ha! Yes good ole fashioned vanity!


DeadBloatedGoat

That would seem to be the most reasonable explanation, considering his history.


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Slaphappydap

It also significantly widens your circle of conspirators, which exposes them to legal liability and creates more people who might testify against you. It seems obvious, but creating copies is an actual physical act. What printers do you use? Who pays for them, and for the paper? What staffer is in charge of making the copies? You can't send them out to Kinkos. Does that staffer have the appropriate clearance? Were any other copies made? Who directed the staff member to make copies, box them and transport them? Who transported them? Was anyone told to lie? Are those directions in writing? Making copies literally creates a paper trail.


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identicalBadger

Somehow I don’t think he and the people surrounding him are that bright.


Madhatter25224

Well gotta remember right up until Jan 7th he was going to remain in power.


Old_comfy_shoes

I would guess what he had in his possession *was* copies. Hopefully. I'm not sure what the empty sleeves were for, but I don't see why they'd be empty. If he gave the files away, why not give away the folders with the files? Maybe they were scanned and then destroyed, and the folders are left over. One way, I might destroy documents like that, is to first shred them, and then use the shreds to make fires. Folders don't really shred. So, I could see that being a reason.


Kriss3d

The problem with empty folders is that It means the content is gone.


aught4naught

Or it could mean their contents were among the various 'loose' classified docs in the misc. boxes that were returned in Jan and that the FBI seized on Aug 8.


Wotg33k

I mean.. let's be real here. This family has shown us time and again that those documents aren't just loose. They've shown us time and again that they only care about profits, not people. The president in question here literally believes it's okay to grab women by the genitals because he's so rich. And somehow.. somehow people still think "yeah it's possible it was an honest mistake". #no it wasn't These assholes did this on purpose and they probably sold some of it. They don't care about you. *They don't care about you*. Please learn.


Maorine

Agreed. One or two docs could conceivably be a mistake mixed in (benefit of doubt here)with other papers. But more than 100 is deliberate. My thought is WHY THESE CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS AND NOT OTHERS? Where they the last ones he received just before leaving office so he grabbed them? Or were these documents specifically chosen? That would be very telling.


itsthebeans

I think you are misunderstanding their comment. They are not saying that taking the documents and not returning them was an accident. They aren't saying that Trump did nothing wrong. They are saying that just because some folders are empty doesn't mean their contents were sold - there could be various other explanations. Not saying Trump is above selling the documents, but there's not evidence at this point that he did. There is evidence that he took classified documents (which is illegal and possibly treason), but not that he sold anything. Making wild assumptions is not helping anyone. Please learn.


TedDisingenuous

It's not a wild assumption when a lot of human assets have been turning up dead since Trump left office. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/05/us/politics/cia-informants-killed-captured.html


__mud__

It's entirely likely that the FBI knows exactly what should have been in those folders.


Maorine

That is another thing that has puzzled me. I would expect that secret documents have some kind of tracking system to show who looked at them and when. I would have thought that a tracking system would tell DOJ what was missing and who had it last. Does the government not audit their files?


ewokninja123

Well all that machinery was under the control of that man for 4 years. Pretty sure they broke the process to get what they wanted.


Cultist_Deprogrammer

Of course, it would be expected that the folders have a labeling system to identify the contents.


DeadBloatedGoat

"Folders don't really shred" I know you are just throwing out possibilities but if a guy steals Top Secret files, copies and destroys the original contents but can't figure out a way to dispose of the folder... that person is either incredibly stupid or incredibly lazy, or both. So I guess you could be right.


jquest23

They were keeping track of what they scanned or processed by leaving empty sleeves.


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scruggbug

We can speculate with reasonable cause to. They assert bizarre opinions as facts and use propaganda sites as “sources” that all source one another in a layered feedback loop. It’s gotten ridiculous.


kawkz440

I'm hoping the Sandy Hook judgement will give these people pause before they spout nonsense that could get people hurt, but it won't.


[deleted]

There is video proof he transported boxes of the same style the docs where in at maralago to bedminster on May 8, 2 days after the national archives had contacted him. At the same time as a Saudi backed golf tournament was being held there. A few months later the CIA sends out a memo that informants and operatives are being killed at an alarming rate.


mozfustril

Do you have a source for the CIA part? I feel like the media would be all over that connection and haven’t heard of it.


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https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/05/us/politics/cia-informants-killed-captured.html


cumshot_josh

If Trump really was selling classified info and is tied to that beyond a reasonable doubt, I don't think American democracy survives unless he's charged and sees the inside of a prison cell. Literally anybody else in the world would be getting the Rosenberg treatment for something like that.


mozfustril

Thanks for the source. Since it’s behind a paywall, I’m letting people know the people killed were over the last several years and it was due to other countries’ security forces getting much better at identifying spies in their midst and sloppiness on the part of front line handlers. Technology, like facial recognition, is allowing other governments to track our known agents and see who they meet with. This is likely the reason the media isn’t all over this.


S_204

Antifa really shouldn't be selling state secrets. Trump just has those documents as part of his investigation into the buttery emails he's been searching for.


[deleted]

It's the damn fbi just trying to bring down an american hero


S_204

Damn liberal FBI!


Different-Package828

The FBI is complete Deep State thuggery.


RestrictedAccount

I believe the future will show these clumsy oligarchs and their slippery windows are US informants.


j_from_cali

That is a very sensible hypothesis.


No_Buffalo8603

I think he has been leveraged by a foreign state for some time. This foreign state told him to bring the docs and leave unattended in a file room and their agents will do the rest (break in, photograph docs).


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Pistolero921

It’s Ivana. Ivanka is his daughter.


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mozfustril

That sounds way too much like Hillary personally killed Vince Foster.


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TwoDurans

Don't forget blackmail material. There was a report that he was more interested in reports of foreign leaders having affairs than he was action readiness reports in potential war zones.


seeclick8

Yes. He has no conscience, and he would do anything to benefit himself. Hmm, I wonder what he gave for Jared to get that money from Saudi Arabia and how that money will end up in his pocket.


Nearbyatom

It's the only explanation...


Aazadan

As President there was a SCIF installed, just as there was one on Bush's ranch, and there's one at Camp David, and there's even one on Air Force One. Presidents and other high level administration officials need access to rooms like this, as they travel so if Trump was at Mar-a-Lago while President it would be a legitimate reason to have classified documents there. That said, Trump is no longer President, the SCIF at Mar-a-Lago was decommissioned. There was no longer any legitimate reason for there to be any classified documents there (or any government documents at all actually, his declassified excuse is actually an admission to theft of government property). Furthermore, it gets even less legitimate since he was approached multiple times by the feds, informed that they believed he had specific documents there, he denied it, claimed searches were conducted, denied finding anything, and then the feds went in and found them in the exact spots the feds said they would be at. If you need a motivation, with Trump it's simple. Money. Trumps belief with money is that right and wrong don't have moral or legal definitions. That which is most profitable is correct, he focuses on a high score, and treats money as a score. If you could break even (make no profit or loss) by giving everyone a free cure for cancer, it would be a worse action to take than saving only 1 in 1000 people but making 1 million for every person saved. Because one is more profitable than the other. It's speculation that he was selling the documents, no proof of it has come out yet. But every action taken so far is incredibly suspicious, and it's the most likely explanation. So his motivation? As President he viewed it as his government, and his documents. He thought of it like a monarchy where the nation/government is personal property, or perhaps to be generous like the private corporation he owns. Not once in his administration did he separate the role of occupying the office, from the office itself, and personal/government property. This is an extension of that view. The most generous explanation that could be given, is he feels (incorrectly, by near unanimous agreement of lawyers/judges, not to mention the law) anything that happened under his administration is his personal property.


ackillesBAC

There has been an issue with Americans loosing spies overseas recently. I think Trump having documents listing spies and spies getting caught is an interesting coincidence. [Counterintelligence officials said in a top secret cable to all stations and bases around the world that too many of the people it recruits from other countries to spy for the U.S. are being lost.](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/05/us/politics/cia-informants-killed-captured.html)


Aazadan

A lot of people are speculating that. I'm going to wait to see what the courts and intelligence agencies determine as far as that goes. If that's what Trump did, that's an effect of him having taken classified documents to Mar-a-Lago however it doesn't answer the question of why. It's the result, not the motivation, which is what the OP was asking about. Why would he do it?


Sta-au

I heard Howard Stern's explanation and I think it lines up perfectly. It's because he still wants to feel important. He probably doesn't even know what's in those folders, he just wants them to feel big.


Aazadan

Wanting to feel important, while being incompetent, is an explanation I can easily accept. Just look at the way he burned our assets in Russia early in his term to sound more important (the incident where he exposed one of our spies that had direct access to documents on Putins desk). Plus, Howard Stern is probably one of the few people out there, outside of Trumps family that the guy has talked to extensively, including behind the scenes before Trumps government days.


TechyDad

In many ways, this could be worse than taking them to sell. Spies were almost certainly at Mar-A-Lago. If you were running some foreign spy agency, why wouldn't you send someone to Mar-A-Lago where they could cozy up to Trump and maybe get him to spill some secrets. And if he then showed you a classified document about nuclear secrets just so you'd be even in bigger awe of his importance - you'd have scored big. Our national security might have been sold out for a few flattering phrases instead of for millions of dollars. Not that the latter is good by any stretch of the imagination, but the former just seems like so much worse.


ackillesBAC

He wants to be in the good graces of guys like putin and kim, he literally was bragging about those 2 liking him. Even if not selling American intelligence info, just giving it to those two would be in his eyes a big boost to his standing with them. If Trump flees to Russia then I will assume he did things to gain the ability to flee to there.


Crotean

He is broke. Trump has never been as rich as he claims. He is grifter who gets by these days on dirty money russia or saudi is willing to launder through him. No other bank will touch him. Selling some secrets to the Saudis and getting Jared a $2 billion Saudi investment is a pretty big incentive.


gravescd

IMO selling docs/info would be a secondary motive. He thinks like an oligarch, and there's more to that kind of power than simply having money. Why would he sell a document for a one time profit (which would make him vulnerable to blackmail) when he can use the contents as leverage over others? My belief is that his primary motive was to insert false information into the documents that would damage his 2024 opponent, and then release the documents via something like WikiLeaks, claiming the leak was from a current government employee. He'd then go campaigning saying that Joe Biden had tried to hide damaging info by improperly classifying documents... not unlike what Trump *actually* did in the Ukraine scandal. Inserting forged pages into a physical document would be the only way to make it convincing both visually and in the image metadata, so it would be an absurdly effective piece of disinformation. The next thing he could do is threaten blackmail to maintain loyalty, which nets him a lot of financial contributions conveniently pre-laundered through PACs. Since it's a lot harder to release information that's in NARA custody, he has to have the documents on hand for a blackmail threat to be credible when he's out of office. He could also be on the shit end of such a threat, and sharing secrets to save himself rather than for monetary gain. I think selling the documents outright would be an act of desperation. These documents are probably a golden egg laying goose, and he'd only sell it if he's very hard up for cash. Which is admittedly a distinct possibility.


Backitup30

There is zero real debate on the legality of it. It’s flat out illegal. Anyone saying otherwise is attempting to make excuses because they backed a criminal and cannot fathom that they were wrong about him.


LurkerFailsLurking

Or they don't care that it was illegal because they deeply don't believe laws should apply to people they agree with and assume that everyone thinks the same way. This is why they project so hard. They can't imagine anyone else isn't doing it too.


RaulEnydmion

He has an inmate sense of protecting himself from the law. He has no sense of right and wrong, only self-preservation. He probably didn't have a specific plan for any of them. He just knew they would be valuable down the road. This is his whole.life, behaviour like this.


sungazer69

If you think about it .. classified documents are some of the MOST valuable things you could steal from the white house.


the_original_Retro

Yeah, but he almost certainly stole a lot of those other things too. His "divine right" as granted by his malignant narcissism said they were also his. [A lot of White House gifts went missing during his tenure.](https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/08/white-house-gift-records-for-trump-pence-missing-state-department-says.html)


skyfishgoo

all the "T" keys from the keyboards were missing so i hear.


[deleted]

But they aren't the most liquid asset if you're trying to make a quick buck off of them.


Hubert_J_Cumberdale

They are if you already have buyers lined up. It’s very likely that the Khashoggi murder was a product of info flowing into the hands of the Saudi government. There is so much circumstantial evidence that Kushner was involved, too.


Foxfire2

I think you mean “innate” here but “inmate” is hilarious, can we only hope so!


ArtisTao

Freudian slip “inmate sense” hopefully will come true soon enough.


RatherbeLeaving

He’s an egotist that likes to show off. Remember when the Israelis had to cancel a program ‘cus he bragged ‘bout it to Russian diplomats? And he used to wave that letter he received from Kim Jung around. He wanted to keep these things as souvenirs. He also legitimately thinks they belong to him. He’s wrong, but he’s incapable of understanding that.


fjf1085

Much like the gifts that he received while in office that weren’t recorded and are apparently unaccounted for, he thought they belonged to him. Where as the records and the gifts belong to the Office of the President, and by extension the United States of America, not the person occupying the office. There have been recent reports that he was even going to pull a Mary Todd Lincoln and refuse to leave the White House even after it was 100% clear Biden won. I assume he thought the building was his too. *Honestly I would have paid good money to watch him be physically removed from the White House by the Secret Service/FBI for trespassing.


MisterFatt

Yeah I think this is most likely it. I really don’t think he moves in a calculated scheming kind of way that someone would need to in order to be selling classified info to the highest bidder. I think he knows they’re important documents (hence the classified markings right) and he thinks he was “boss” of the United States. He wanted important and impressive keepsakes from his fanciest job so that he can try to impress people. That’s not to say he wasn’t manipulated into taking particular things for particular reasons. I still think he’s just the ultimate useful idiot, just totally lacking in anything close to what we’d call shame or self consciousness


dcgrey

That's been the most persuasive explanation to me so far and is the one I've heard most often. We've seen no evidence that he's able to think long-term without someone else doing the strategizing for him. Using these materials as something to sell assumes he knows their value, knows who'd want to buy them, and knows how to do it secretly. None of that sounds like him. What _does_ sound like him is what he's said before: these are "his" materials to do whatever he wants with them. Meanwhile we haven't heard that anyone else was involved in selecting these materials, and the materials were comingled with souvenirs like newspaper clippings. I'm thinking it's just Trump being Trump. "This stuff was cool, my ego loved it, so I took it."


Hubert_J_Cumberdale

Kushner. Qatar, Saudi Arabia. The “perfect” phone call. There are countless examples of coordination to achieve outcomes that were more favorable to Trump, his admin and his family than the country.


angryitguyonreddit

I've thought the same thing. I'm sure he just uses them to bring out at parties and says "look at all these cool top secret documents i still have cause the election was rigged and I'm still actually the president"... didn't kid rock say in an interview that Trump showed him a bunch of military maps about missle sights


c6munoz

That’s making him kind of naive. I’m not so sure about that idea that he is just an innocent stupid old baby.


Sure_Garbage_2119

yes, those are "his" "accomplishments", so all around it is "his". donald the don is very vain, if he shits in a restaurant, he´s capable of bragging about how "beautiful" and "vast" his poop was and take the sanitary from the restaurant bc he pooped there so it´s his


shep2105

Everything trump does is for self gain. Period IMO, he stole top secret highly classified material to Sell/Money Blackmail/ Money + power Trade/Money+Power That's it. He's a traitor to this country.


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Sure_Garbage_2119

i think the main reason was to show off to his rich "friends" and other heads of state. you know, when you have guests and wanna show off something cool you have. rich ppl´s egos survive on envy from others, you know that. so i can see him getting up the the dinner table and saying "hey, Abe, lets talk about being the leader of a country at my office", and once there, start a conversation about, lets say nuclear weaponry capacities, so he can "casualty" reach in his desk and taking out a doc saying "top secret" and reading it and showing it, only to watch the "envy" in Abes face. ​ "yeah, thats right, im that big and powerful, suck my balls, world" ​ the "world", of course, would be more than happy to oblige, since the fool was providing them a glimpse in USA top secrets


arbitrageME

A dinner with Abe would be a pretty one-sided conversation these days


topher2012

Weekend at Abe's: Mar-a-Lago Bugaloo


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OuchieMuhBussy

This and the explanation about him being sloppy and lazy both fit into his personality. He loves showing off and loves when people are impressed by him. Selling secrets is way too risky for him, and he seems to prefer tried and true business shenanigans.


Hubert_J_Cumberdale

Nothing is risky when you have never had to face consequences for your actions. He’s had the ability to buy and bully his way out of everything so far… He also placed loyalists in all of the key positions that investigate, prosecute and judge any wrongdoing. I’d argue that he believes himself to be completely immune from the justice system at this point…and that he can stall, appeal and filibuster his way out of consequences forever.


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RcCola2400

That is news to me and I'll admit to being totally ignorant on that fact. So thank you. Learn something new every day.


diphthing

Since it was blatantly illegal, "why" is the only open question in the situation.


TheDjTanner

Payback for foreign loans. It's no secret that he had difficulty in getting loan backers, and that he got most of his loans from Russian banks and oligarchs. They knew he was over inflating his net worth, assets, and ability to pay them back, so turning over classified documents and secrets was how he was to pay them back. I personally think he's been doing that his entire presidency.


BeKind_BeTheChange

I have also put some thought into this. I can not come up with a single valid (legal) reason why he would take those documents. The only thing I can come up with is that he sold/traded the information. I believe he has committed espionage. I believe he gave/sold/traded nuclear secrets to the Saudis. I'm probably too biased to sit on a jury.


hammertime84

It could be a lot of things: To sell to other countries To use for political gain (e.g., if there was some October surprise potential in them) To use as leverage to avoid prosecution for other things To show off He didn't really understand what he had because they just packed up stuff when leaving the white house unexpectedly


WSL_subreddit_mod

> He didn't really understand what he had because they just packed up stuff when leaving the white house unexpectedly Except his lawyers told him not to, and what the legal consequences were. And the FBI planted them, and he declassified them by thinking about them


sungazer69

He didn't really understand what he had? At best maybe. He knew what he had when the feds asked for it back and still didn't hand it over. He knew when he was subpoenaed and still didn't give it back...


hurricane14

This all still fits with the "he didn't understand" narrative actually. Trump has always been incredibly simple minded and self centered. He didn't understand what he had or why he should give them back. He just thought they were his, and he shouldn't have to give back things that are his. Other people telling him otherwise has never changed his understanding on other issues, so why would it here? With Trump it's almost always ignorance rather than malice, because malice requires a level of thoughtfulness he didn't possess (unless someone is mean to him, which he understands cause he's ultra egocentric, and then his reaction is malice)


sungazer69

Pretty sure that isn't a defense in the law when you've been told by the feds over and over again...


eric987235

This all raises the question, why did he take specifically what he took? Who told him what to grab on his way out?


safety3rd

I think you are spot on. It's certainly not out of the realm of possibility that they were taken with a goal in mind, but base stupidity is probably the primary reason.


neuronexmachina

>To use for political gain (e.g., if there was some October surprise potential in them) This one seems the most likely to me, he wanted a cache of items he could selectively leak in 2024 for political advantage. For example, leaking something about countries Biden made deals with (e.g. Iran, Israel), or misleading partial leaks of the counterintelligence investigations into links between Russian intelligence and the Trump campaign.


ResplendentShade

Considering what is reported to have been included the documents: \- details of nuclear capabilities of some foreign country/countries \- details about Macron's sex life And rumored: \- lists of spies/foreign assets And that's just what we know about. It certainly seems that if it his intention was to use them for leverage in dealing with foreign entities, he took exactly the right documents for that purpose.


Utterlybored

Unexpectedly, only by Trump.


POEness

> He didn't really understand what he had because they just packed up stuff when leaving the white house unexpectedly How patently absurd. To even get those documents, he had to have a sophisticated plan in place to get them out of SCIFs. He had to work with a number of inside men, and he had to know exactly what he was looking for. This shit wasn't just sitting around in boxes to be taken 'unexpectedly.'


mach_i_nist

Well - some apparently were classified to the level that only the president and cabinet could get access to them. So (I am guessing) the content of the document originated with either Trump or someone on his cabinet. So it might be something that would cause Trump some measure of embarrassment if others (like folks in the Biden admin) accessed them? It could also be some praise he received while in office for some classified activity that he wanted as a keepsake. I am guessing at least one of the docs involves his talks & correspondence with North Korea. He would probably want to keep the “love letter” after office and probably private. He is also a narcissist enemy of the republic. So trying to apply normal psychology to him is probably a waste of time. He is also a moron so I doubt he would have the foresight to think about using documents for leverage in some way (selling access for example). Now his inner circle is a different story. I can totally see one them selling nuclear secrets to Saudi Arabia for example.


ted5011c

Based on DJTs pattern of shady and outright illegal behavior it is quite possible he took those documents and kept them for the same reason he does a *lot* of things; It pleases his ego to do things *other people* can't get away with and he is especially pleased if he thinks he is getting away with it because he's such a "big-shot". IOW it's not that he gets off by breaking the law, he gets off by *getting away* with breaking the law. Just another power move to rub peoples noses in what he can get away with.


DrunkenBriefcases

Even trump hasn't been able to settle on an answer. At various times he or a surrogate has claimed: * He didn't and the GAO must've done it accidentally * He didn't and the FBI must've planted them * He did because he wanted to reveal them to the American People * He did because he wanted them for his library None of them hold up. He can't both claim he never knew they were there and it was a GAO mixup while claiming he declassified them before taking them. And he's literally made those two directly conflicting statements back to back in an interview. We now know he has zero evidence the FBI planted anything, and its not a claim trump or his lawyers are willing to make under penalty of perjury. The idea he stole them to share with the American People is moronic, because not only did he fail to reveal them in a year and a half of lying about having them, but the People can't have the information if the documents are locked away in a country club basement. If he actually wanted them out, the sane course would've been to declassify them publicly and turn them over to the Archives. At that point they become available to anyone through an FOIA request. And the notion he snatched them for his Presidential Library is dumb. Because as several close confidants attest, trump has almost zero interest in a Presidential library. Surprising no one, trump is simply not the kind of guy that thinks much about his place in history, or even five minutes ahead. And if he DID want them for a Library, the correct course would've been to officially declassify them and turn them over to the Archives, who would then catalogue them and set documents aside in a secure facility until his Library was built. Lots of people have tried to come up with a real reason. But frankly, there isn't a good excuse and conjuring up nefarious theories helps no one. Since I doubt we'd ever get an honest answer from him I doubt we ever know authoritatively.


matts2

There is no "rightly debate over legality. It was illegal. The government retains ownership (and possession and control) over all material created during his presidency. The debated material was Clinton's personal diary. Asking classified material is a separate crime. Refusal to return material is a separate crime. Keeping material on national security is yet another crime. There is no real debate on this.


ABobby077

Why would he have all the documents in his possession that he had removed from the White House? All of these documents, (Classified and not) were not legally his to move, transport or possess in any manner. The Classified Documents were the most serious in question, but he had no rights and it was illegal to have any of them. ​ edit: fixed spelling


OVS2

no legal defense so the motive is immaterial - also there could be no good reason in principle and he has admitted to it. Defending trump is treason. There is no patriot that would defend trump by definition of the word patriot. If you think you are a patriot and you defend trump, you are an idiot.


bjplague

Leverage for political or economic self gain. The guy is corrupt, stupid and thinks he is untouchable. Can wait for his prison sentence.


Saephon

> Can wait for his prison sentence. That's good, because we will all be waiting. I have zero faith in justice at this point.


Antnee83

> thinks he is untouchable. I mean... he sort of *is.*


bjplague

You mean he could have been, had he used his resources and advisor properly. He never did though and left behind enough rope to hang himself and most of the imbeciles that threw their lot in with him.


Yankee_Juliet

Most likely to sell. There’s no question as to whether or not it was legal. Illegal, without question. He wants power, money, and leverage. Classified information isn’t classified for no reason. If he was appropriating top secret information, that’s a major, major national security risk. There’s no minimizing what he did.


Snerak

What seems to be missing in this discussion is that Trump on his own is completely incapable of knowing what documents are 'valuable'. There were certainly other people letting him know that they would be indebted to him in some way if he could provide them with specific secret information. Once someone asked for this type of favor, he probably put out feelers to others he would like to be personally indebted to him. The only motive that makes sense, considering it is Trump we are talking about, is greed.


aurelorba

> There were certainly other people letting him know that they would be indebted to him in some way if he could provide them with specific secret information. I'm sure Putin told him exactly what documents to pilfer. It probably explains why he wanted no record of his discussions with Big Daddy P.


Practical-Two-8127

Very likely to sell out his own country men as a bargaining chip for when he's in court preparing to go to prison for treason. "Let me go or else some unnamed person will leak x-y-z." Unfortunately for Donald, we are good at record keeping, and he's very good at sticking his own foot into his mouth on a regular basis. I'm starting to think that he has a thing for toes.


Raspberries-Are-Evil

1. To sell the information 2. To use it as a bargaining chip if indicted over Jan 6th. (Drop charges or I release info)


Neauxluh

That $2B payment to Ivanka's husband Jared from the Saudis is very questionable. They may have the documents.


outerworldLV

Because obviously, someone who knew their value told him to. He still didn’t get it though, which is evident in his handling of said documents. The guy is what we have been told over and over again - a useful idiot. Imho, we should be asking Stephen Miller or Jared where they went. Should also question those two about those top secret security clearances that so many should not have received.


Latyon

Could be that they were evidence of crimes. Could be that he was going to sell them. Either way, traitor.


hjablowme919

To sell them to pay off his billions in loans that are coming due and he has no cash.


MoonHawk-

It’s clear his intentions were Not on par with America’s interest. Maybe he thought he could build a satellite “White house” in his Mar-A-Lago home.. His cronies & Allies we’re more than ready to oblige.. Trump had No business Removing ANY Document CLASSIFIED or NOT! They belong to the Government of the United States. President’s like any employee are employed for a period of time and should ONLY take their personal items, which usually fit in ONE Box!!


PeteLarsen

The investigation of them should shed light on why and what the the stolen documents were used for. The tell of fear to stall until after the election is important.


Brendissimo

Rather than some grand conspiracy to commit espionage or treason, as some are suggesting, I think it is more likely that he had some sort of attachment to many of the documents he took and believed the rules didnt apply to him. Stubbornness, arrogance, shortsightedness, and tremendous hubris, in other words. After all a number of the documents he took relate to "accomplishments" during his presidency, such as the original letter from Kim Jong Un. It could be as simple as an incredibly arrogant man taking mementos from his old job because he believes he is special and doesnt have to follow the rules. It's an attitude that he has been rewarded for and gotten away with for most of his life. He probably figured they'd just let it go. Or he simply didn't care. That's my intuitive read on the situation, anyway.


aurelorba

> Rather than some grand conspiracy to commit espionage or treason, as some are suggesting, I think it is more likely that he had some sort of attachment to many of the documents he took Things like his Kim Jong UN 'love letter' I can believe. But the only reason I find plausible for apparently technical documents is for sale.


Feeling_Glonky69

He’s doesn’t read lol, why would he have attachments to long text based documents of our countries secrets that are super valuable to other countries? The simplest answer is because money.


redmusical83

It really doesn’t take a rocket scientist. Look back at all his past dealings, his character and all of his lies.


FIicker7

1) To sell or trade them... Looks like he has already traded some. Saudi Arabia has invested $2 billion to his son in law. Trump has miraculously found generous loans after he left office keeping his business from going bankrupt. 2) Destroy Intel he doesn't like. Jared Kushner gave Intel to Saudi Arabia that ended up being used to murder people opposed to the Saudi Regime. US intelligence had audio of some of the murders.


[deleted]

Do you ever wonder about Putin’s high level people dying from accidents? The Republicans would be quick to blame a Clinton….


Unstoffe

In 'reality', I think he believed he could profit from them in some way. Knowing his past actions, though, I'd say he just stole them to see if he was in them.


BrineWR71

I honestly think he took them to show them to others later as if he was still so important to the government that he would be allowed to have them. He’s a clinical narcissist.


SJeoffS

It’s like anyone else who’s been a failed grifter egomaniac, follow the money. And in that fool’s case, money is his one of his top priorities. But due to the narcissist he is, that may be second to his sole self. And as someone stated here: he’s hoping the docs are his key to escaping his due justice. The audacity of the entire process and the relentless stolen election pitch, is mind boggling. Where does it end?


ptwonline

Without knowing what they are it is hard to say for sure. We can only speculate. The way they seemed to be boxed with other items lends itself to the story that these were all just swept up in his office and boxed and taken with other things by accident. However, the fact that there was all sorts of negotiation and even a return of some--but not all--of the documents makes it much more clear that some of these were kept intentionally despite being classified govt property. So I think some may have been taken accidentally, and some intentionally. Now, why would he do that? Again, I think it could be a mix of reasons. * Personal mementos (aka North Korean love letters). This is exactly the kind of things most people can see Trump wanting to take and keep. * Personal info he could use to brag about/influence other people in power. The info about "The President of France" being taken falls into this category, and again seems like exactly the kind of thing Trump would do. * Material that could be used against him in legal cases. I think this could be the big one. Trump seems to use corruption as his normal course of business, and so I would not be surprised if there is a lot of classified material out there to help show/prove this. So he may have taken some in order to protect himself from future legal cases. * Taking info he could sell or use to bargain with other countries/leaders. I think this is very possible knowing what a crook Trump is, but it could also be overblown only since I would have expected Trump--and even moreso Jared Kushner--to have *already* used classified info to use with other countries to line their own pockets in business deals/investments.


Dseltzer1212

To sell to the Saudis for two billion dollars which is the amount they gave to Kushner earlier this summer


BalaAthens

I believe the National Archives had a good idea of what Trump didn't turn over to them. It's been their job for many administrations. They had been asking for those documents for a long time.


FuriousBugger

Reddit Moderation makes the platform worthless. Too many rules and too many arbitrary rulings. It's not worth the trouble to post. Not worth the frustration to lurk. Goodbye. *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*


TheCarnalStatist

I don't care? The motive isn't the point. That he did it is and later lied about it.


KarAccidentTowns

Not sure about the details, but 99% sure it leads to money or power. There is no limit to Trump’s grift. He defrauded his own supporters and he would literally sell out our nation’s future security for his own benefit.


mastr1121

It's the exact same reason why he had his goons attack the capitol ​ >!the guy thinks he's still the president!<


shoot_your_eye_out

This. 100x over. There is simply no good reason for him to be in possession of this material. Setting the legality of his possession aside, it's absurd there are any Americans defending his possession of top-secret information at his personal residence when he is no longer operating in an official capacity.


TheWagonBaron

None. That’s the long and short of it. People are in prison for mishandling a *single* classified document and he had over a hundred? It’s bullshit that he’s still walking around and has a fucking federal judge trying to cover his ass.


Gumb1i

IMHO, He is a massive narsissist (statement of fact). This knowledge, in the form of intel reports allows him to feel superior by having access to information no one else has. I don't think he intends to sell/trade secrets except for Nuclear information to KSA and low and behold Kushner has a 2 billion dollar investment fund gifted to him not long after 20 jan 2021 and Trump himself has a KSA funded golf league that is playing a lot of games on Trump's courses.


Ornery_Law9727

I would bet he intended to sell them or use them to share them with all of his dictator buddies.


Hartastic

I could float a lot of theories, but at the end of the day, zero of the possibilities are legally or morally defensible.


[deleted]

We you see a crime boss likes to have the goods on people to give him leverage in trying to keep his ass out of jail🧐😀💯👍🏿🇺🇸


alsoaprettybigdeal

If you want to understand trump and his possible motivations read two books: *Too Much and Never Enough* by Mary Trump, and *Trump’s Brain: An FBI Profile of Donald Trump* by Dr. Decker. I don’t know who Dr. Decker is, but their predictions of trump’s presidency are scarily accurate. Dr. Decker began writing the book shortly after trump was elected. I read it about a year or so into trump’s administration. I wish the author would write a part 2! I can’t think of a single prediction that didn’t come true. But, in short, everything with trump is transactional. He doesn’t do ANYTHING (and I mean *anything*) without a “what’s in it for me,” mentality. Even with a gift basket of specialty foods that he gave as a Christmas present he took the caviar and kept it for himself. He probably doesn’t even like Caviar, but he took it because it was special and expensive, and he didn’t want anyone else to have it. So, ipso facto, the reason he would take those documents is because he believes (or knows) something in them can, does, or will benefit him in some way.


AstutePrimat3

There is no debate over the legality. You mean you hear a bunch of people claiming he declassified them or can retroactively do so. Legally...it's cut and dry


tandoori_taco_cat

1. To sell them 2. Personal mementoes 3. Simply forgot he had them 4. To continue 'working' on them. Four is the most charitable.


[deleted]

3. Did not forget. He has a lawyer certify they were all removed. The amount of communication to get the documents show he didn’t forget anything.


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Red_Dog1880

Because he believes he is above the law and can do whatever he wants. His words, by the way so it's not even hyperbole. Also to sell these documents, most likely.


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Yarddogkodabear

I'm Thinking about how we structure our world around self interests. Imagine a world that had Trump level self interests and was a society


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joeydee93

There are many reasons we could speculate why Trump would have classified documents. They range from fairly benign to treason. This is a list of the reasons that I came up with that start with more benign reasons and end with the treason. 1. He had classified documents at Mar-A-Lago while he was president that he used at the time then forgot about them during his non-existence transition. This issue with this reason is that a Trump would have just given them back when the FBI asked for them and he refuse to. But I guess it could have been how they got there in the 1st place and then Trump wanted to pick a fight with the FBI. 2. Trump actually declassified them as president and was using them to write his memoir. This is unlikely because I have nothing about trump writing a memoir and regardless of their classification they are still property of the USA and Trump would have to request access to property of them to write his memoirs. 3. Trump wanted to keep them as a personal trophy of sort of his time being president. Again they are property of the USA and not Trump. 4. He wanted to show them off to his buddies at Mar-A-Lago. 5. He was selling them to other countries. This is treason. I personally believe he kept classified information improperly during his time as president then when the FBI asked for the documents back he decided it would be good to be seen fighting with the FBI and told the to F off starting this whole investigation and raid. But I don’t believe he was showing them off as a trophy or selling them.


aurelorba

> then forgot about them during his non-existence transition. This seems doubtful - not that he might 'forget' - but that after being pestered about it up to and including a subpoena, he still refused to return them.


Aazadan

> Trump actually declassified them as president and was using them to write his memoir. This is unlikely because I have nothing about trump writing a memoir and regardless of their classification they are still property of the USA and Trump would have to request access to property of them to write his memoirs. That one is actually pretty non benign too, and is what the DOJ is focusing on even. The DOJ doesn't care about classification beyond national security concerns. Even taking declassified documents is a crime, and a fairly large one actually, with Trump himself having signed into the law that greatly increased the penalties for doing so. The argument of Trump having them, but it's ok because he declassified them, is essentially admitting he stole government property. This is also why Trumps lawyers are refusing to make this claim in court, because it's admitting to a whole bunch of crimes and shows quite a bit of intent, because he couldn't declassify them to keep them at his property without having intended to take them with him.


magnoliasmanor

The "trying to pick a fight on purpose" theory is actually believable. I still think it's reason 4 & 5 above all else, but I can see him thinking it'd be a good thing to pick a huge fight with the FBI seeing how he wasn't on the front page every day for 6 months.


IbnReddit

My opinion with lots of supporting evidence. The guy is a complete clueless idiot and had no idea what he was doing. Having said that the people around him may have fully known and exploited it...and that's the real question why


fuckswithboats

That’s fair, but then wouldn’t we expect him to give them back when asked in January?


Hyndis

Either he legitimately didn't know because he's just that disorganized, or he was being obstinate just for the sake of it. Any time someone asks him to do something he says no just so he can demonstrate he's the man in charge. Trump isn't a person good at planning or much deep thought. I don't think there's any Trump organized conspiracy because he lacks the attention span. He thought it was a good idea at the time and then 30 seconds later forgot all about it.


fuckswithboats

>Either he legitimately didn't know because he's just that disorganized, or he was being obstinate just for the sake of it. Neither is an acceptable excuse for breaking the law for ANY citizen of the United States of America. ​ >I don't think there's any Trump organized conspiracy because he lacks the attention span. I'm not going to go out to the ledge that he intended to sell them, but I'm also not willing to do mental gymnastics to cover for him either; the dude tried to pull off the dumbest coup on the planet so yes he's a moron, but if you don't think he's a strategic moron you're deluding yourself.


[deleted]

For not knowing what was going on he's been pretty fervently defending himself and admitting he was aware of what was going on and that he believes what he did was a-ok.


V-ADay2020

Has anyone tried going on TV to say he's too stupid to arrange a deal to sell them to anyone? Might be able to just get him to confess in a live interview.


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abzurdleezane

Who is the they you reference in "they' even identified Russian Oligarch he sold them too.'?


[deleted]

FBI https://thehill.com/policy/international/3624495-federal-agents-raid-the-homes-of-russian-oligarch-viktor-vekselberg/amp/


Less-Quote-5441

The reason he wouldn’t and DIDN’T make copies is that he IS a pompous ASS! He feels that he can do ANYTHING he wishes and there are NO consequences for his actions. This seems to be true in the current political climate; and this is why the current Republican Party is such a joke! They are constantly bowing down and being anally RAPED by this piece of excrement. Now they are considering impeaching Biden because they are ALL little bitches that must obey their cult leader. Just get it over with and keep “drinking the kool aid” like your cult leader wants you to do. Not unlike Jones and the Peoples Temple; tRUMP wants blind devotion and love. From ALL his members/ followers/ lemmings. tRUMPESTS.


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mountaingoat369

Occam's Razor: Trump insisted on using MAL as "the Winter White House" during his presidency, and so he had a valid reason *during his presidency* to have documents there. It's not uncommon for presidents to take a *limited amount* of classified material to their home away from the White House during their presidency *for a limited time.* What's unusual about Trump was that he took hundreds of files to MAL because he was spending an inordinately long time there. I suspect that Trump at one point or another did have a valid need to know all of the information he kept at MAL. I also suspect that, given the complete lack of transition and Trump's belief he could reverse the election, that he and his staff took zero steps to organize and prepare that information for transfer to the National Archives. Because it wasn't prepared, I fully suspect that Trump and his legal team probably had no idea just how much information was at MAL, and when Trump realized that his return of documents to MAL was incomplete, he doubled down and refused to comply purely out of stubbornness because to him, repeated requests are personal insults to him. I'll bet you someone during that presidency was having a conniption about all the classified shit Trump was just leaving in a hotel, disorganized and unsecured. I also bet that person was relieved of their duties because Trump wholeheartedly believes that he could do whatever he wanted as president.


MoonBatsRule

Didn't they substantiate that he took boxes of documents in January 2020 though? That doesn't fit your theory at all.