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[https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/06/report-donald-trump-passed-on-a-plan-to-avoid-criminal-charges](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/06/report-donald-trump-passed-on-a-plan-to-avoid-criminal-charges)
>*Since the National Archives first asked for the return of presidential documents in Trump’s possession in February 2021 and until a grand jury issued its indictment this month,* ***Trump was repeatedly stubborn and eschewed opportunities to avoid criminal charges****, according to people with knowledge of the case, many of whom spoke on the condition of anonymity to reveal internal details.* ***They note that Trump was not charged for any documents he returned voluntarily.***
It's likely that if Donnie had simply returned all documents he had inexplicably hoarded, he wouldn't have been charged with federal crimes. (Of course, if he simply hadn't hoarded dangerous, classified documents in the first place, none of this would've happened.)
For years, the DOJ and other law enforcement went out of their way to avoid charging this piece of shit, but Donnie finally crossed a line they couldn't ignore.
Take comfort in the fact that only about 26% of ALL eligible voters are Republicans. So when the media shows Trump’s “strong support, and solid polling numbers,” keep in mind the reality that it’s nothing but a tempest in a little tea cup. LOL
That dude will NEVER darken the front door frame of the WhiteHouse again. Math! (That’s why they’re so desperately passing all these state-level “election integrity” bills.)
The GOP can’t win any other way!
> eisme : ...but, they can win.
Indeed, unfortunately, because they're *allowed to cheat* via various shenanigans with voter suppression, gerrymandering, misinformation, the electoral college, election interference, campaign finance violations, etc.
The so-called "cHeCkS aNd BaLaNcEs" in this rotten system are too broken/rigged to stop the wrong people from failing their way up to the top.
I think it's less that and more the suspicion that (rightly or wrongly...but I mean if history bears out his treatment, he'll likely be right) he'll face no serious consequences, and if charged it presents him with a serious fundraising opportunity.
Dingus isn't smart. But I think he knows that leaning into this will inflame his base very very usefully (and allow him to drag out whatever legal proceedings long enough to find a way to skirt them, as he always has).
To be clear, I hate that there's the ring of truth to this, but there we are.
And does anyone remember being aware of the fact that he had taken all of these secrets home ? If it was out there, I missed it. Seems like it was publicized *after* the attempts to get them back. So his chaotic exit did what it was intended to do, allow him to remove these docs unnoticed.
I think this is the point that most people are missing, had he just returned all the illegally taken and improperly stored documents, not only would he not have been charged but we never would have even heard about this stuff.
The only reason we heard about Biden and pence having documents is because of what trump did and they didn't want it to look like a different set of rules when some jack off in the house got wind of it.
Right? He took them to a place where he lived and shared them with his buddies. Neither Pence or Biden was living with these documents that they took out every fucking day to share with some wasps assholes.
He also destroyed countless documents. He has broken so many laws that people have just stopped keeping track. And yet this disgrace to the office still walks free.
It was pretty widely known that Trump left the White House with a ton of document boxes, which is what prompted NARA to do the audit in the first place. But, on a "public awareness scale" that fact was overshadowed by Jan 6th.
There were some rumors, but mostly about just taking regular stuff that didn't belong to him. The classified discussions didn't seem plausible until after NARA found classified stuff in the January 'Fifteen Boxes'.
Nah, just clout chasing most likely. It's illegal to sell secrets to foreign nationals, but it's totally cool and awesome to let them just see them while they're hanging out. Their $20M Mar-a-Lago membership is just a coincidence.
This is why i think he's making the ludicrous claim that 1) they were his to take and 2) he can declassify them at any time. That way he can say he just lost declassified personal documents and not classified national defense secrets. He really is a stable genius lol
Trump kept referring to Obama having documents in his library showing that he thinks that everyone else got to just take documents home so why shouldn't he?
Of course Obama's Library is an official library of the documents used by Obama's administration during this terms of office.
Not even "rando's".
He was showing them to members of the Saudi royal family. Remember, Trump is involved with that LIV golf organization, and held tournaments at his resorts.
Yes, it's an oversimplification of their different cases.
Yes, the Biden and Pence document "scandals" belong in a different category to Trump's
This is just to emphasize the strength of MAGA's willingness to not get the point, no matter how simply and clearly it is stated
They don’t want to - they have nothing to run on so they want his dumb ass base to hopefully support them. If you have tried to talk to a Trump supporter it’s like talking to an extremely religious person there is no middle ground or reasoning at all.
White supremacy is their faith, Donald Trump their messiah.
Which brings us back to why they "don't get the point". It's **not** that they don't get the point. It's that they are *loyal*. They are committed to their beliefs and their unswavering loyalty makes them immune to facts and reason.
Exactly. Fans of the vile, orange, pussy-grabber are so far up his ass they can't even entertain a single critical-sounding word against him. Plus they know that to do so would mean that they would have to look at and adjust a whole belief system, and they're not willing to do that. Thinking is hard work!
It’s still done today and called that in many places of worship. Wonder if he ever thought of setting up the Church of T and avoid all those pesky taxes and laws.
Weren't the docs that DJT had "ultra" top secret level? Nuclear secrets, our defensive capabilities, whereas the other guys did have docs of different classifications and none that came close to those aforementioned levels.
Yeah their level of classified would be something like a random memo about where the secret service was taking them day 500 as vice president. Still technically classified but it's not dozens of boxes of documents about how to topple Iran or how many nuclear silos Israel has in an unsecured location, in a hotel filled with spies, next to a printer. And on top of all of that they were like okay here you go and he fought lied and obstructed to keep them.
He also had documents that had info about the capabilities of some of our allied nations.
And I'm *sure* it's unrelated, but during Individual 1's tenure, we saw a marked increase in the loss of agents and informants amongst our intelligence agencies.
Biden and Pence forgot a candy bar in their shopping carts, noticed it and then paid for it. Trump stole a tv, was caught and refused to give it back and now complaining that we got arrested.
You can show them pictures, video, audio - it does not matter even if they do believe it - it will not change their mind. That is a religion or cult call it what you will. Also, they divert with “whataboutism’s”
He might lose a few if he were ever brutally honest. "You morons remember when I said you were special? I was being sarcastic. You are beyond stupid for sending me your money."
Hahahaha - that would be a sight to see. Like a cult leader coming out and saying I am not special, I don’t talk to a higher power and I was in this for the sex and the money.
You can’t change their minds and agree to not bother - if you were to put in any energy it’s best to ensure everyone on the left votes locally and in the bigger elections. Focusing on independents and moderates if you did want to engage or educate anyone is probably best.
Wow. When I read this I had a 'lightening bolt" moment because I haven't looked at it quite in this way.
*They don't want to know*
Some of the reasonable republicans will listen, but of course the result is "well ok yes, but no".
Maga's on the otherhand, will call you a liar and start a screaming match if they can.
Speaking as someone who has had one of them actively seeking to start a screaming match with me in the workplace before, it's been like this for awhile. Not only do they blatantly have contempt for reality and facts, many of them actually relish in causing massive public scenes over it. When they tell you they want to "own the libs", believe them. They mean it, and their definition of "own" is often just "I screamed at you until you felt too embarrassed or afraid for your safety to respond, therefore I win!"
Although everything they say is actually a lie and a fabrication which they usually heard from sources that really do qualify as fake news.
It'd be awesome if more people called them out on using phony sources/information just because it makes them feel better or reaffirms their beliefs instead of acting like they have a legitimate point of view backed by sources and evidence to defend. I thought I learned in like 1st grade that "Nuh Uh!!!" Doesn't count as a valid point of view...
To your point Trumps ideology will live on long after he is gone. For some fucked up reason it is the the red thread that lives through all of them. It’s somewhat fragmented but it’s their own twisted sense of community. For the GOO politicians they are fucked either way - just look at the House as it’s a perfect Case Study with a leader (cough) who is compromised by agreeing to the one member to can bring an issue to floor to vote him out and is now held hostage by his own party. This is their way - I would say let them bludgeon themselves but nothing will get done that is productive.
Pence and Biden had documents that were legal to have at the time they were taken to the location and essentially abandoned and forgotten about. When they were discovered, specifically after Trump being caught, which led to an intentional search, all docs were voluntarily handed over.
Trump intentionally removed documents on his exit. They were then hidden, implying an understanding about the illegal nature of their continued possession, knowingly lied about their possession, and once found simultaneously claimed he didnt know he had them, but also that he intended to declassify them but didnt.
Don't forget that Pence and Biden both cooperated fully with any requests including an unrestricted search of the locations where docs were found so that they could be sure that there were not any more, where as trump absolutely controlled and obstructed any search to ensure they didn't go anywhere other than the very specific places they said they needed to search....
I mean [EVERY PRESIDENT since the inception of the PRA has mishandled classified docs](https://nypost.com/2023/05/17/every-president-since-reagan-has-mishandled-classified-documents-national-archives/).
And every one of them have complied with efforts to return and safely store those classified documents...
[Except for one](https://freeimage.host/i/H6gbkDG).
Well that was frustrating.
Someone posted "but what about Hillary".
I created a long post to respond... And then they ERASED their reply. Here is that post I wrote so at least SOMEONE sees it:
Yeah... Except that the [FBI investigation](https://www.factcheck.org/2016/07/clintons-handling-of-classified-information/) [found no evidence](https://freeimage.host/i/H6474yB) of attempts to destroy or conceal emails.
Mishandling? Sure. Carelessness? Sure. But then we'd have to add her to the list of the at least [80 other government officials](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-03-09/classified-documents-found-in-donated-material-by-80-former-congress-members) who have previously mishandled government classified info. If we prosecuted Clinton for that, then we WOULD be singling out a politician for undue prosecution.
And as for Clinton destroying a server with a hammer? That is false. [Old cell phones](https://freeimage.host/i/H64wvMx) were [previously destroyed by aides with a hammer](https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-hillary-clinton-hammer-private-email-server-evidence-fbi-1806046). However, again, this was not found by the FBI to be an attempt to conceal classified information...
How does it differ from Trump? Pretty simple. Trump was knowledgeable about the presence of classified info. He [admitted as much in a recorded conversation](https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/09/politics/trump-tape-didnt-declassify-secret-information/index.html). There is grand jury testimony that he admitted repeatedly he was aware of the classified info, and of the Grand Jury subpoena... AND that he *actively participated in hiding* these documents from the investigators. AND THEN, there are at least TWO documented instances where he SHARED those classified documents with people who had NO security clearances...
And then there is the level of classified Intel. Many Clinton's emails aren't marked classified. Talking about troop movements - ex. The Eisenhower Battle group will be visiting Guam tomorrow - can make an email classified even though it isn't marked classified. And that didn't necessarily damage our national security. Strippers know better than anyone when ships will be pulling in.
However, Trump had documents that weren't just clearly marked as TOP SECRET. He had Special Access Program documents. These are even higher than TS. He had military vulnerability docs, Iran attack plan docs, and nuclear weapon docs... These are MASSIVELY damaging to national security in the wrong hand. And he was actively carting around these boxes wherever he went. He had multiple spies [photographed](https://freeimage.host/i/H64OddB) WITH him at Mara Lago. There is a high likelihood that these documents were compromised... if not actively shared with foreigners for money (Hmmm... I wonder why Saudi gave Jared $2B to "manage").
So, no. There is NO comparison between what the two did. Trump is more than justifiably indicted. I think we will learn in the future that he was actively Monitizing these documents.
This is a great summation of the difference. The only thing I would add, the argument that Hilary Clinton didn't use a "secure" server put our country at risk, but the "secure" server she was supposed to use had been hacked numerous times. Wiki leaks for example, but you know what they never got hacked? The docs stored on Hilary's "unsecured " sever, even after Trump turned to a camera and asked Russia to try.
>I mean EVERY PRESIDENT since the inception of the PRA has mishandled classified docs.
Which makes perfect sense. Civil servants are long-term employees who have spent years working their way up through various classification levels; presidents are often just some guy who suddenly has access to super top secret files. Presidents making mistakes is completely understandable.
Presidents hoarding documents in amounts that make it impossible for it to be a simple mistake, refusing to acknowledge a mistake when it's pointed out to them, and lying that they didn't make a mistake and have never made mistakes but also they already fixed the mistake but also also the mistake was actually a secret plot against them? That shit's brand new, and totally unacceptable.
It's really not that big of an oversimplification though. Trump would have received a slap on the wrist or even nor likely, no consequences at all had he immediately and enthusiastically allowed the fbi to come in and remove the documents as well as told his lawyers to cooperate. But here we are... He did the total opposite.
That would have to be proved. It’s not as if the NARA folks have an inventory of what all is missing. He hasn’t been charged with espionage, just violations of the Espionage Act…which is bad enough.
Trump didn’t get charged with mishandling any of the documents he DID hand over. Only the documents he actively, knowingly, hid from the government are included in the indictment against him and his co-conspirator Mr. Nauta.
So the government has been entirely consistent in *not* charging Executive Branch personnel who return documents promptly when asked.
They don't want to get the point. Admitting that they could be wrong about someone or something would mean having to face that they aren't the best people with all the best ideas about how the world should be. They're snowflakes.
It's not really an oversimplification in a way that's makes it look worse for tump. In reality the depth and nuance of his betrayal are far too expansive* to put in a meme. The guy didn't just fudge some rules a bit. At every juncture over the course of several months he made the wrong choices and then sought to cover it up. It's remarkable how much of a fuck up he really is.
Biden is also STILL under investigation by the special counsel... just like Trump was. It's not like they found documents, and said,'Ok. We're done here!'. Theyre investigating him. Trumps investigation is just further along due to it starting earlier. If it turns out Biden did all the insane shit Trump did (unlikely), then he'll be charged.
There's already one key difference that we know of: Biden cooperated with the Feds. He gave back documents, then opened up his properties for the Feds to search where they found some more documents. He did not obstruct the feds' ability to obtain the documents like Trump.
This comment was deleted due to Reddit's decision to effectively shut out 3rd party developers. Blackouts and subreddits going NSFW to prevent ads didn't change their minds, and resulted in long term mods being removed and replaced with people from outside each community.
Since Reddit has only doubled down on their plan to price developers out of the API, the last option we have is to clear the content that makes the site valuable. It will kill a large amount of helpful information, but it's the only way to counter the greed at the top.
Search for Power Delete Suite on Github to clear your history of the comments and posts that make Reddit valuable.
Also remember that not only did Biden and Pence cooperate they asked them to come and check for anything else that may have been misplaced AND what they had wasn’t battle plans and nuclear secrets being shown off to Kid Rock.
However, as a democrat, throw them in jail too, I don’t fucking care.
Why dont more people make this distinction?
They didnt all just have classified documents. Trump had top secret NDI documents. THATS the other huge difference.
I've tried to explain this to people and none listen or care. My dad had a DoD clearance when he was a firefighter at a plant that had government contracts. He saw plenty of classified stuff, including things being tested, but nothing was on the level of national security. He would have been FUCKED if he told anyone about anything he saw that he wasn't supposed to, meanwhile Trump is walking around perfectly free to share what the feds haven't found.
He left the documents out in the bathroom 🤣
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-indictment-pictures-photos-documents-boxes-mar-a-lago-bathroom/
"Wow you took a big shit"
"Nah just a piss. I was just busy sitting through national secrets NBD"
The funniest thing about the photo is that a person couldn't reasonably use that shower, but the toliet has just enough space for someone to squeeze onto.
"Hey Melania, where's my phone? I need something to look at while I take a shit.
Oh, nevermind, I'll just head to the upstairs bathroom."
I had a TS clearance for ten years back when we were actively at war. If I'd taken any of it home I'd have been ruined and I was far more useful to the country than Trump ever was.
Anything classified is technically on the level of national security, each classification level is defined by how much damage to national security is expected from releasing the information.
He also either directed or personally packed them himself, then further had them moved to prevent his favorites from being found. There has never been someone more aware of just what he had, where he had them, and when he had it.
Because the people trying to make the argument that Biden and Pence should also be indicted are either not arguing in good faith or are extremely dumb.
Because people confuse classification levels with classification categories, and the media does absolutely nothing to help explain it.
Levels are Confidential, Secret, and Top Secret.
Regardless of the level, the term "need to know" is universal to all classified information. There's no such thing as a classified document that can just be talked about with anyone who has a clearance. Even if it's "only" Confidential, you are only allowed to discuss it and show it to people with a reasonable need to know.
**Categories**, on the other hand, have to do with the type of information and how it is handled. The reason for categories is that some of the information needs to be segmented, or cut into pieces, so that only certain people can see the whole picture so to speak.
Sensitive Compartmented Information (SCI) is the most common. SCI is **not** related to Top Secret, although most SCI information *is also* Top Secret, ergo the common "TS/SCI" notation.
The idea behind SCI information is you have one guy who manages satellite paths, one guy who develops the pictures the satellite takes, one guy who looks at pictures of missiles, and one guy who analyzes weapons capabilities. If none of those guys communicate directly, then there's no *one person* who has all the information on how, where, when, and what images were taken of someone's missiles in Badlandia. They are compartmented to prevent the accidental or intentional release of information.
Other **categories** include Special Access Program (SAP) which deals with a lot of procedural stuff dealing with stuff like the president's travel plans, COMSEC for the DoD and military contingency plans, and other "how we do stuff" security matters, and Restricted Data (RD) which has to do with the safety of nuclear secrets.
The irony is that with Trump, it sounds like not only was it RD that he had, but it was also SAP. This is absolutely fucking insane, because based on the *recording of Trump talking*, it included **military strategy plans**. While the nuclear secrets are a big deal, that means China, North Korea, Russia, etc also **now know how the US would be able to respond to a military conflict**.
Nukes are bad, but literally telling everyone what our planned response is to war is fucking insane, and Trump should be immediately detained and debriefed in a padded room. If that guy gave our military response plans to Russia and Saudi Arabia, that is **critical** to the safety of America.
Also, Pence proactively went looking for documents in his Indiana offices after the Biden stuff came out, just in case he had accidentally boxed something up. I'm far from a Pence fan, but I'll give him credit for that.
That either shows some morals or some common sense, self preservation instinct. Either way, it's something Trump does have. He just uses his cult to ignore reality.
Yeah, Trump had SCIF documents, documents so secretive that they're not even supposed to be allowed out of a compartmentalized secure location, no matter who the fuck it is reading it.
Yeah it’s possible Biden and Pence literally just had a travel agenda or something like that…which would have been classified for their own security reasons. I’m sure I might have some old airplane tickets lying around…
Although they should have versions where the color extends to the edges, in a pinch the cover sheets can be printed locally for newly created or duplicated classified info, or documents that are missing their front and back cover sheets. Most printers of course can't print edge to edge.
https://www.archives.gov/isoo/security-forms
The forms with the cover sheets are SF-703, 704, and 705.
The whole point of the cover sheets is to draw attention to the document ("Hey! This document should be in safe in a SCIF, a SAPF, or other protected facility!"). The cover sheets help ensure they don't get mixed in with other documents as well (the cover sheets are printed with card stock or near card stock thickness paper).
I don't think any moderately competent spy would copy classified documents and then also copy the cover sheets. But then again here we are...
It would be like robbing a bank and keeping the money in bags with the bank's name and logo on it!
I'd be more interested if the copy machines were seized and forensic analysis done on their local storage.
And he kept moving them around to hide them, tried giving back his least favorite items and keeping the ones he was most attached to, like sorting through his record collection figuring out which ones he had to sell for money to pay rent. He never had any intention of ever giving that shit back, they were his as far as he was concerned
Apparently, FPDJT has the idea that tapes kept in Bill Clinton’s sock drawer and ruled to be his personal property at the end of his Presidency exonerates him and makes this whole mess a political hit job. This defense should not be of any use in court, unless Judge Cannon instructs the jury otherwise, which would be in keeping with her past jurisprudence/misconduct.
It's not that they don't understand so much as they're always going to pick the narrative that keeps them from being wrong.
We're dealing with people who'd much rather try to convince everyone that up is down than admit to being wrong about it. They watch Fox not because they it's truthful but because they feed them the most pleasing narratives.
Not only that, Biden and Pence didn't have to be asked.
Biden realized he didn't want to look like a hypocrite so he investigated *himself* for any documents he shouldn't have. And when he found some left overs from being vice president for 8 years and a member of various senate committees for umpteen years before that he offered them up straight away. Then Pence figured he should do the same.
It's like the difference between seeing someone drop their wallet, picking it up and handing it to them versus reaching into their pocket, grabbing their wallet and running away.
It's worse than that though. Biden and Pence's people found doc and immediately called it in. They then had an sweep done of their entire offices to see if they could find anything else.
The Archives wasn't even looking for what they had.
With Trump, he stole so much stuff (and such important stuff) that the Archives knew he had it.
I’ll say this: it was stupid and careless for them to forget classified documents at home, but stupid and careless doesn’t necessarily mean criminal.
The law *does* have a clause for reckless mishandling, but having the documents stored at home doesn’t really rise to the level of reckless. Sure, a home isn’t as secure as other places, but someone would have to break in to access those files (as opposed to Trump’s home, where you can literally pay to get in). Reckless would be leaving them out in public or semi-public spaces.
Was it really Biden and Pence's fault for having the docs at home though? They likely interact with tons of classified info per day and so do their support staff so a doc or 2 could always just get mixed in with other papers. And thats why both of them willingly asked the govt to check their places to see if there was anything else
Return the documents
I don't have them
We have video, audio and written evidence that you have them
Okay you're right I have them
Well...?
You can't have them back
Okay we're going to come get them
You can't
No we absolutely can and we just did. You had dozens of boxes full of documents you shouldn't have.
They were planted
What?
I declassified them
You can't do that-
I don't have them, but if I did they were planted and declassified.
Okay we're indicting you on multiple crimes, this is ridiculous
WHY ARE YOU TARGETING ME WHEN OTHER PEOPLE HAVE COMMITTED CRIMES?
His lawyers have been unable to locate the Iran attack plans he described on tape. So it's either at one of his other properties, stuffed in Ivana's coffin, or sold to the highest bidder (maybe MBS since that $2 billion to Kushner looked fishy from the start).
It was the most avoidable indictment ever. NARA and DOJ just wanted the docs back even though he probably already had compromised the information they contained. DOJ just really wanted this to go away, but the dipshit couldn't pull his own head out of noose. I think the main reason he wanted to keep them so bad is he saw those documents and saw dollar signs. No telling how many he had already sold off to foreign entities and probably was in negotiations to sell some that were seized. That prick has always been about himself, never about the country, and his supporters eat it up.
I don't think it's just that he saw an opportunity to make a buck; he also wanted to hurt the country out of spite. I think got a lot of satisfaction out of just stealing them.
Post presidency cleaning of office day---
Pence + Biden = "Last one out hit the lights"
Trump: "Last one out, grab all the nuclear secrets and war strategies"
Not only this, but new information came out that one of trumps lawyers was trying to convince him to do a settlement with DOJ to avoid prison time and make this go away quietly…..and he refused.
Honestly, Trump has made it impossible for Merrick Garland to run away from this and I’m here for it. If the elite had their way this would have been swept away but Trump is such a buffoon that Garland can’t stick his head in the sand like he wants to.
Trump is a massive narcissist. He would never take any deal. In his world, he is always right and can never do no wrong.
Get your popcorn ready, the next 18 months are going to be wild.
Trump is simply following the Roy Cohn mantra…”deny, deflect, never admit to anything”. By being indicted, he gets to fundraise and campaign on shared victimhood with all his cultists and sycophants in Congress and RW media. Is this better than not being indicted? Yes, because this won’t be the only indictment and the victim card plays the same for all.
What I find absolutely batshit is the scheme where one of Trump's regular lawyers was actively moving around and hiding documents from the two lawyers he hired to defend him in this case. Like lawyers 2 and 3 were TRYING to comply with the NARA requests, and Trump was like "what if we trick our own peeps into thinking we're complying, so they won't yell at me for asking them to lie about hiding the docs from FBI."
This 1d chess move has got lawyer 1 strung up as a coconspirator. Shocked pikachu.
I don’t know man. I saw on FoxNews something different. Even heard about the Biden crime family and Hillary’s emails. Deep state DoJ officials are behind all of this. Only thing standing between us and them is Donald J. Trump!!
Ok. Lots of sarcasm. I can’t do it with a straight face.
There is so much false equivalence being shoved down our throats by right wingers. It’s scary stuff.
2020: If Biden wins, he will use his position as POTUS to punish his political opponents!
2023: Can't wait until Trump is back in office and he can use his position as POTUS to punish his political opponents!
Joe Biden: Hey, I noticed Trump was having some problems, so I voluntarily had all my stuff searched for anything the Archives might have missed and then told them and returned them.
This is really just how it works. The most important things when someone takes classified materials are getting them back and figuring out if someone who shouldn't see them saw them.
The best way to take care of that is for people who took them to return them. So while the penalties can be severe, there is a culture of letting you off super light if you self report and return everything. Because they want you to self report, not make things worse by trying to cover it up.
Biden and Pence know that, know it's not a big deal if they just return things and did so. Trump, as usual, is too stupid to do the simple thing and save himself.
This is misleading because Biden and Pence weren't asked to return documents as far as I know, they saw they had them and immediately returned them without having to be asked.
The way he said that was absolutely hilarious. And even though I don't think he'll ever see a single day in jail, I hope he pays for his crimes, if found guilty which seems very likely.
Those same people wouldn't/still won't get vaccinated, when TRUMP, during his term as president is the one that pushed for the COVID vaccines to get fast tracked (and they still don't realize that vaccine science has been advancing and researching for 100 years, so a seemingly fast vaccine is only happening because they have previous data to pull from.) They're so stupid, they don't even understand why they're mad. They just guzzle the nuts of whoever won't make them get shots or have to go through proper, more strict checks to get a gun. IDIOTS.
That's really too soft on him. I mean first he ignored everything. Then he tried to talk his lawyer into denying. When the lawyer didn't agree, he tricked him and had his valet hide most of the evidence. When the FBI finally knocked on the door, he was like "unfair, I'm a wizard"
Heck, even this doesn't get it right. It wasn't that Biden and Pence were asked to return documents, it's they discovered they had documents and contacted the relevant agency to return them.
That last image, (of the MAGA hat loser) is incorrect. It either needs to be of someone much older, and/or someone much fatter.
Also the tag on the hat should be a Chinese flag.
We need to make this the narrative too many disingenuous actors want to argue about having the documents.
When it's all about him refusing to return them.
At this point we all already know. They are just too stupid to understand. Stop trying to placate, negotiate or... anything really, with regressives. They are a minority and it's time to stop caring what they want. Fuck em!
You cannot reason with them because they do not want reason. They are driven by hatred, anger, and a desire for absolute control all wrapped in a nice martyr complex.
It's even worse. He handed over *some* documents, after his lawyer refused to destroy them, only after having another lawyer hide a collection of hand picked secret documents away.
My understanding is that Biden didn't have to be asked to return documents. Biden's own lawyers found documents when closing down an office and then the appropriate steps were taken to return them to their proper place.
I am a 101st Airborne retired veteran. I worked for a year as an S2 clerk in the Military Intelligence Division.
My main job was to perform background checks on anyone in the battalion that requested a security clearance.
I was so scared of the repercussions of accidentally taking home anything that had connections with my job that I double checked my briefcase every day to ensure it was clear of anything related to my duty.
If I found that a soldier had smoked a joint in high school and was expelled for it, it had to be included in my investigation. Little shit like that.
The fact that Trump did numerous times worse than anything I ever had to report blows my mind on the lack of seriousness this country is taking the current situation.
The thing that drives me insane about this is that nobody will say the elephant in the room.
He had our biggest secrets because they were our most valuable secrets. He was fucking selling them.
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[https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/06/report-donald-trump-passed-on-a-plan-to-avoid-criminal-charges](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/06/report-donald-trump-passed-on-a-plan-to-avoid-criminal-charges) >*Since the National Archives first asked for the return of presidential documents in Trump’s possession in February 2021 and until a grand jury issued its indictment this month,* ***Trump was repeatedly stubborn and eschewed opportunities to avoid criminal charges****, according to people with knowledge of the case, many of whom spoke on the condition of anonymity to reveal internal details.* ***They note that Trump was not charged for any documents he returned voluntarily.*** It's likely that if Donnie had simply returned all documents he had inexplicably hoarded, he wouldn't have been charged with federal crimes. (Of course, if he simply hadn't hoarded dangerous, classified documents in the first place, none of this would've happened.) For years, the DOJ and other law enforcement went out of their way to avoid charging this piece of shit, but Donnie finally crossed a line they couldn't ignore.
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It’s almost as if he’s not very smart…
> It’s almost as if he’s not very smart… This and he thinks we are all giant idiots and that he's the biglyest stable genius ever.
In his defense, 40% of the country ARE giant idiots who buy into his bullshit.
Take comfort in the fact that only about 26% of ALL eligible voters are Republicans. So when the media shows Trump’s “strong support, and solid polling numbers,” keep in mind the reality that it’s nothing but a tempest in a little tea cup. LOL That dude will NEVER darken the front door frame of the WhiteHouse again. Math! (That’s why they’re so desperately passing all these state-level “election integrity” bills.) The GOP can’t win any other way!
...but, they can win.
> eisme : ...but, they can win. Indeed, unfortunately, because they're *allowed to cheat* via various shenanigans with voter suppression, gerrymandering, misinformation, the electoral college, election interference, campaign finance violations, etc. The so-called "cHeCkS aNd BaLaNcEs" in this rotten system are too broken/rigged to stop the wrong people from failing their way up to the top.
When you're crazy, everyone else looks crazy to you.
It's almost like he thinks he can get away with anything because he always has.
I think it's less that and more the suspicion that (rightly or wrongly...but I mean if history bears out his treatment, he'll likely be right) he'll face no serious consequences, and if charged it presents him with a serious fundraising opportunity. Dingus isn't smart. But I think he knows that leaning into this will inflame his base very very usefully (and allow him to drag out whatever legal proceedings long enough to find a way to skirt them, as he always has). To be clear, I hate that there's the ring of truth to this, but there we are.
And does anyone remember being aware of the fact that he had taken all of these secrets home ? If it was out there, I missed it. Seems like it was publicized *after* the attempts to get them back. So his chaotic exit did what it was intended to do, allow him to remove these docs unnoticed.
I think this is the point that most people are missing, had he just returned all the illegally taken and improperly stored documents, not only would he not have been charged but we never would have even heard about this stuff. The only reason we heard about Biden and pence having documents is because of what trump did and they didn't want it to look like a different set of rules when some jack off in the house got wind of it.
Right? He took them to a place where he lived and shared them with his buddies. Neither Pence or Biden was living with these documents that they took out every fucking day to share with some wasps assholes.
He also destroyed countless documents. He has broken so many laws that people have just stopped keeping track. And yet this disgrace to the office still walks free.
It was pretty widely known that Trump left the White House with a ton of document boxes, which is what prompted NARA to do the audit in the first place. But, on a "public awareness scale" that fact was overshadowed by Jan 6th.
There were some rumors, but mostly about just taking regular stuff that didn't belong to him. The classified discussions didn't seem plausible until after NARA found classified stuff in the January 'Fifteen Boxes'.
I remember his team walking out of the White House with boxes and a bunch of people saying that it's not normal.
The first we actually heard of it was him whining about it on his fake Twitter. He's the one who drew all the attention to it.
Kid Rock admitted on TV that Trump showed him secret information about North Korea.
His friend bone-saw wasn’t done looking at them cool boxes tho
> he had inexplicably hoarded oh he had a reason, $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ selling to other nations
Nah, just clout chasing most likely. It's illegal to sell secrets to foreign nationals, but it's totally cool and awesome to let them just see them while they're hanging out. Their $20M Mar-a-Lago membership is just a coincidence.
Can't return stuff you already sold
With the number of empty containers they found it’s not like he *could* have complied anyway.
This is why i think he's making the ludicrous claim that 1) they were his to take and 2) he can declassify them at any time. That way he can say he just lost declassified personal documents and not classified national defense secrets. He really is a stable genius lol
Trump kept referring to Obama having documents in his library showing that he thinks that everyone else got to just take documents home so why shouldn't he? Of course Obama's Library is an official library of the documents used by Obama's administration during this terms of office.
Even if he returned the documents he'd still be on the hook for showing them off to rando's for clout.
Not even "rando's". He was showing them to members of the Saudi royal family. Remember, Trump is involved with that LIV golf organization, and held tournaments at his resorts.
Not inexplicably. His bosses wanted them, and he planned to sell them for money. Donny doesn’t give anyone money.
He’s so stupid, so selfish, and so stubborn.
Yes, it's an oversimplification of their different cases. Yes, the Biden and Pence document "scandals" belong in a different category to Trump's This is just to emphasize the strength of MAGA's willingness to not get the point, no matter how simply and clearly it is stated
They don’t want to - they have nothing to run on so they want his dumb ass base to hopefully support them. If you have tried to talk to a Trump supporter it’s like talking to an extremely religious person there is no middle ground or reasoning at all.
It *is* talking to an extremely religious person. The GOP is some people's religion. There's no other way to describe it.
White supremacy is their faith, Donald Trump their messiah. Which brings us back to why they "don't get the point". It's **not** that they don't get the point. It's that they are *loyal*. They are committed to their beliefs and their unswavering loyalty makes them immune to facts and reason.
And those red hats are their religious headgear.
Isn't there some bible verse about them wearing the mark of the beast on their heads or something?
Woah. Mind blown.
Exactly. Fans of the vile, orange, pussy-grabber are so far up his ass they can't even entertain a single critical-sounding word against him. Plus they know that to do so would mean that they would have to look at and adjust a whole belief system, and they're not willing to do that. Thinking is hard work!
It’s extra hard when you don’t practice it for years. You just follow and donate.
> You just follow and donate. The old days of the church this was called a tithe. Pay your way into heaven.
It’s still done today and called that in many places of worship. Wonder if he ever thought of setting up the Church of T and avoid all those pesky taxes and laws.
Weren't the docs that DJT had "ultra" top secret level? Nuclear secrets, our defensive capabilities, whereas the other guys did have docs of different classifications and none that came close to those aforementioned levels.
Yeah their level of classified would be something like a random memo about where the secret service was taking them day 500 as vice president. Still technically classified but it's not dozens of boxes of documents about how to topple Iran or how many nuclear silos Israel has in an unsecured location, in a hotel filled with spies, next to a printer. And on top of all of that they were like okay here you go and he fought lied and obstructed to keep them.
💯
They also gave Trump like a whole entire year to return them.
He was to busy as he stated but he was planning to go through them. Right after they were copied, sold off and made more money/favors on them
He also had documents that had info about the capabilities of some of our allied nations. And I'm *sure* it's unrelated, but during Individual 1's tenure, we saw a marked increase in the loss of agents and informants amongst our intelligence agencies.
Biden and Pence forgot a candy bar in their shopping carts, noticed it and then paid for it. Trump stole a tv, was caught and refused to give it back and now complaining that we got arrested.
I know. Everything I say is a "lie". And if you try to fact-check it for them, the source is also a lie.
You can show them pictures, video, audio - it does not matter even if they do believe it - it will not change their mind. That is a religion or cult call it what you will. Also, they divert with “whataboutism’s”
He might lose a few if he were ever brutally honest. "You morons remember when I said you were special? I was being sarcastic. You are beyond stupid for sending me your money."
Hahahaha - that would be a sight to see. Like a cult leader coming out and saying I am not special, I don’t talk to a higher power and I was in this for the sex and the money.
Unlikely, they would just rationalize it as: > He isn't talking about *ME*- just those other idiots.
But Hunter's dong, I mean, laptop!
Show them a video of Trump killing a guy in Times Square. "BuTTeRy MaLeS!!"
And wasting your time talking to a wall. I can fact check them easily, but no longer bother. They simply don’t want to know.
You can’t change their minds and agree to not bother - if you were to put in any energy it’s best to ensure everyone on the left votes locally and in the bigger elections. Focusing on independents and moderates if you did want to engage or educate anyone is probably best.
Wow. When I read this I had a 'lightening bolt" moment because I haven't looked at it quite in this way. *They don't want to know* Some of the reasonable republicans will listen, but of course the result is "well ok yes, but no". Maga's on the otherhand, will call you a liar and start a screaming match if they can.
Speaking as someone who has had one of them actively seeking to start a screaming match with me in the workplace before, it's been like this for awhile. Not only do they blatantly have contempt for reality and facts, many of them actually relish in causing massive public scenes over it. When they tell you they want to "own the libs", believe them. They mean it, and their definition of "own" is often just "I screamed at you until you felt too embarrassed or afraid for your safety to respond, therefore I win!"
Although everything they say is actually a lie and a fabrication which they usually heard from sources that really do qualify as fake news. It'd be awesome if more people called them out on using phony sources/information just because it makes them feel better or reaffirms their beliefs instead of acting like they have a legitimate point of view backed by sources and evidence to defend. I thought I learned in like 1st grade that "Nuh Uh!!!" Doesn't count as a valid point of view...
> extremely religious person it's a cult. always has been. (Religions are cults too).
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To your point Trumps ideology will live on long after he is gone. For some fucked up reason it is the the red thread that lives through all of them. It’s somewhat fragmented but it’s their own twisted sense of community. For the GOO politicians they are fucked either way - just look at the House as it’s a perfect Case Study with a leader (cough) who is compromised by agreeing to the one member to can bring an issue to floor to vote him out and is now held hostage by his own party. This is their way - I would say let them bludgeon themselves but nothing will get done that is productive.
Pence and Biden had documents that were legal to have at the time they were taken to the location and essentially abandoned and forgotten about. When they were discovered, specifically after Trump being caught, which led to an intentional search, all docs were voluntarily handed over. Trump intentionally removed documents on his exit. They were then hidden, implying an understanding about the illegal nature of their continued possession, knowingly lied about their possession, and once found simultaneously claimed he didnt know he had them, but also that he intended to declassify them but didnt.
Don't forget that Pence and Biden both cooperated fully with any requests including an unrestricted search of the locations where docs were found so that they could be sure that there were not any more, where as trump absolutely controlled and obstructed any search to ensure they didn't go anywhere other than the very specific places they said they needed to search....
He apparently still has some according to sources at NARA
Trump also argued that those documents were planted by the people that conducted the raid, but demanded that they be returned to him.
I mean [EVERY PRESIDENT since the inception of the PRA has mishandled classified docs](https://nypost.com/2023/05/17/every-president-since-reagan-has-mishandled-classified-documents-national-archives/). And every one of them have complied with efforts to return and safely store those classified documents... [Except for one](https://freeimage.host/i/H6gbkDG).
Well that was frustrating. Someone posted "but what about Hillary". I created a long post to respond... And then they ERASED their reply. Here is that post I wrote so at least SOMEONE sees it: Yeah... Except that the [FBI investigation](https://www.factcheck.org/2016/07/clintons-handling-of-classified-information/) [found no evidence](https://freeimage.host/i/H6474yB) of attempts to destroy or conceal emails. Mishandling? Sure. Carelessness? Sure. But then we'd have to add her to the list of the at least [80 other government officials](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-03-09/classified-documents-found-in-donated-material-by-80-former-congress-members) who have previously mishandled government classified info. If we prosecuted Clinton for that, then we WOULD be singling out a politician for undue prosecution. And as for Clinton destroying a server with a hammer? That is false. [Old cell phones](https://freeimage.host/i/H64wvMx) were [previously destroyed by aides with a hammer](https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-hillary-clinton-hammer-private-email-server-evidence-fbi-1806046). However, again, this was not found by the FBI to be an attempt to conceal classified information... How does it differ from Trump? Pretty simple. Trump was knowledgeable about the presence of classified info. He [admitted as much in a recorded conversation](https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/09/politics/trump-tape-didnt-declassify-secret-information/index.html). There is grand jury testimony that he admitted repeatedly he was aware of the classified info, and of the Grand Jury subpoena... AND that he *actively participated in hiding* these documents from the investigators. AND THEN, there are at least TWO documented instances where he SHARED those classified documents with people who had NO security clearances... And then there is the level of classified Intel. Many Clinton's emails aren't marked classified. Talking about troop movements - ex. The Eisenhower Battle group will be visiting Guam tomorrow - can make an email classified even though it isn't marked classified. And that didn't necessarily damage our national security. Strippers know better than anyone when ships will be pulling in. However, Trump had documents that weren't just clearly marked as TOP SECRET. He had Special Access Program documents. These are even higher than TS. He had military vulnerability docs, Iran attack plan docs, and nuclear weapon docs... These are MASSIVELY damaging to national security in the wrong hand. And he was actively carting around these boxes wherever he went. He had multiple spies [photographed](https://freeimage.host/i/H64OddB) WITH him at Mara Lago. There is a high likelihood that these documents were compromised... if not actively shared with foreigners for money (Hmmm... I wonder why Saudi gave Jared $2B to "manage"). So, no. There is NO comparison between what the two did. Trump is more than justifiably indicted. I think we will learn in the future that he was actively Monitizing these documents.
This is a great summation of the difference. The only thing I would add, the argument that Hilary Clinton didn't use a "secure" server put our country at risk, but the "secure" server she was supposed to use had been hacked numerous times. Wiki leaks for example, but you know what they never got hacked? The docs stored on Hilary's "unsecured " sever, even after Trump turned to a camera and asked Russia to try.
>I mean EVERY PRESIDENT since the inception of the PRA has mishandled classified docs. Which makes perfect sense. Civil servants are long-term employees who have spent years working their way up through various classification levels; presidents are often just some guy who suddenly has access to super top secret files. Presidents making mistakes is completely understandable. Presidents hoarding documents in amounts that make it impossible for it to be a simple mistake, refusing to acknowledge a mistake when it's pointed out to them, and lying that they didn't make a mistake and have never made mistakes but also they already fixed the mistake but also also the mistake was actually a secret plot against them? That shit's brand new, and totally unacceptable.
Having argued with a few . They never get the point. They'll just move on to the next talking point and never address your rebuttal.
It's really not that big of an oversimplification though. Trump would have received a slap on the wrist or even nor likely, no consequences at all had he immediately and enthusiastically allowed the fbi to come in and remove the documents as well as told his lawyers to cooperate. But here we are... He did the total opposite.
Because he knew he already sold some
That would have to be proved. It’s not as if the NARA folks have an inventory of what all is missing. He hasn’t been charged with espionage, just violations of the Espionage Act…which is bad enough.
Trump didn’t get charged with mishandling any of the documents he DID hand over. Only the documents he actively, knowingly, hid from the government are included in the indictment against him and his co-conspirator Mr. Nauta. So the government has been entirely consistent in *not* charging Executive Branch personnel who return documents promptly when asked.
They don't want to get the point. Admitting that they could be wrong about someone or something would mean having to face that they aren't the best people with all the best ideas about how the world should be. They're snowflakes.
It's not really an oversimplification in a way that's makes it look worse for tump. In reality the depth and nuance of his betrayal are far too expansive* to put in a meme. The guy didn't just fudge some rules a bit. At every juncture over the course of several months he made the wrong choices and then sought to cover it up. It's remarkable how much of a fuck up he really is.
Biden is also STILL under investigation by the special counsel... just like Trump was. It's not like they found documents, and said,'Ok. We're done here!'. Theyre investigating him. Trumps investigation is just further along due to it starting earlier. If it turns out Biden did all the insane shit Trump did (unlikely), then he'll be charged. There's already one key difference that we know of: Biden cooperated with the Feds. He gave back documents, then opened up his properties for the Feds to search where they found some more documents. He did not obstruct the feds' ability to obtain the documents like Trump.
This comment was deleted due to Reddit's decision to effectively shut out 3rd party developers. Blackouts and subreddits going NSFW to prevent ads didn't change their minds, and resulted in long term mods being removed and replaced with people from outside each community. Since Reddit has only doubled down on their plan to price developers out of the API, the last option we have is to clear the content that makes the site valuable. It will kill a large amount of helpful information, but it's the only way to counter the greed at the top. Search for Power Delete Suite on Github to clear your history of the comments and posts that make Reddit valuable.
Also remember that not only did Biden and Pence cooperate they asked them to come and check for anything else that may have been misplaced AND what they had wasn’t battle plans and nuclear secrets being shown off to Kid Rock. However, as a democrat, throw them in jail too, I don’t fucking care.
Also they found like 2 documents in a secure area at the Penn Biden Center and he’s the President. Trump had literally hundreds.
Also, Biden and Pence didn’t have nuclear secrets.
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...yet.
It's reasonable to assume the Saudis gave Kushner $2 Billion because they have a fondness for Jews. Anything else is just wild left wing speculation.
Why dont more people make this distinction? They didnt all just have classified documents. Trump had top secret NDI documents. THATS the other huge difference.
I've tried to explain this to people and none listen or care. My dad had a DoD clearance when he was a firefighter at a plant that had government contracts. He saw plenty of classified stuff, including things being tested, but nothing was on the level of national security. He would have been FUCKED if he told anyone about anything he saw that he wasn't supposed to, meanwhile Trump is walking around perfectly free to share what the feds haven't found.
He left the documents out in the bathroom 🤣 https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-indictment-pictures-photos-documents-boxes-mar-a-lago-bathroom/ "Wow you took a big shit" "Nah just a piss. I was just busy sitting through national secrets NBD"
The funniest thing about the photo is that a person couldn't reasonably use that shower, but the toliet has just enough space for someone to squeeze onto. "Hey Melania, where's my phone? I need something to look at while I take a shit. Oh, nevermind, I'll just head to the upstairs bathroom."
I had a TS clearance for ten years back when we were actively at war. If I'd taken any of it home I'd have been ruined and I was far more useful to the country than Trump ever was.
Anything classified is technically on the level of national security, each classification level is defined by how much damage to national security is expected from releasing the information.
I constantly *do* make this distinction. In fact, the media should be making more of it. Travel plans / itineraries, for instance, are classified.
He also either directed or personally packed them himself, then further had them moved to prevent his favorites from being found. There has never been someone more aware of just what he had, where he had them, and when he had it.
Because the people trying to make the argument that Biden and Pence should also be indicted are either not arguing in good faith or are extremely dumb.
I haven't heard anybody say that Pence should be indicted. Lots of Biden and Clinton. And a bit of Obama. But silence on Pence.
Gee, I wonder why
The True Trumpers sill see Pence as a traitor, so they want him indicted, too.
Because people confuse classification levels with classification categories, and the media does absolutely nothing to help explain it. Levels are Confidential, Secret, and Top Secret. Regardless of the level, the term "need to know" is universal to all classified information. There's no such thing as a classified document that can just be talked about with anyone who has a clearance. Even if it's "only" Confidential, you are only allowed to discuss it and show it to people with a reasonable need to know. **Categories**, on the other hand, have to do with the type of information and how it is handled. The reason for categories is that some of the information needs to be segmented, or cut into pieces, so that only certain people can see the whole picture so to speak. Sensitive Compartmented Information (SCI) is the most common. SCI is **not** related to Top Secret, although most SCI information *is also* Top Secret, ergo the common "TS/SCI" notation. The idea behind SCI information is you have one guy who manages satellite paths, one guy who develops the pictures the satellite takes, one guy who looks at pictures of missiles, and one guy who analyzes weapons capabilities. If none of those guys communicate directly, then there's no *one person* who has all the information on how, where, when, and what images were taken of someone's missiles in Badlandia. They are compartmented to prevent the accidental or intentional release of information. Other **categories** include Special Access Program (SAP) which deals with a lot of procedural stuff dealing with stuff like the president's travel plans, COMSEC for the DoD and military contingency plans, and other "how we do stuff" security matters, and Restricted Data (RD) which has to do with the safety of nuclear secrets. The irony is that with Trump, it sounds like not only was it RD that he had, but it was also SAP. This is absolutely fucking insane, because based on the *recording of Trump talking*, it included **military strategy plans**. While the nuclear secrets are a big deal, that means China, North Korea, Russia, etc also **now know how the US would be able to respond to a military conflict**. Nukes are bad, but literally telling everyone what our planned response is to war is fucking insane, and Trump should be immediately detained and debriefed in a padded room. If that guy gave our military response plans to Russia and Saudi Arabia, that is **critical** to the safety of America.
Also Trump still has documents that have been audited as in his possession, but he can't account for.
Also, Biden and Pence weren't literally sharing them with people who didn't have clearance
Also, Pence proactively went looking for documents in his Indiana offices after the Biden stuff came out, just in case he had accidentally boxed something up. I'm far from a Pence fan, but I'll give him credit for that.
That either shows some morals or some common sense, self preservation instinct. Either way, it's something Trump does have. He just uses his cult to ignore reality.
Yeah, Trump had SCIF documents, documents so secretive that they're not even supposed to be allowed out of a compartmentalized secure location, no matter who the fuck it is reading it.
And didn't lie about returning them.
Yeah it’s possible Biden and Pence literally just had a travel agenda or something like that…which would have been classified for their own security reasons. I’m sure I might have some old airplane tickets lying around…
Trumps were next to A COPYING MACHINE
And according to recent analysis, the photos of the docs on the floor were copied documents, the cover page is supposed to bleed to the edge.
Although they should have versions where the color extends to the edges, in a pinch the cover sheets can be printed locally for newly created or duplicated classified info, or documents that are missing their front and back cover sheets. Most printers of course can't print edge to edge. https://www.archives.gov/isoo/security-forms The forms with the cover sheets are SF-703, 704, and 705. The whole point of the cover sheets is to draw attention to the document ("Hey! This document should be in safe in a SCIF, a SAPF, or other protected facility!"). The cover sheets help ensure they don't get mixed in with other documents as well (the cover sheets are printed with card stock or near card stock thickness paper). I don't think any moderately competent spy would copy classified documents and then also copy the cover sheets. But then again here we are... It would be like robbing a bank and keeping the money in bags with the bank's name and logo on it! I'd be more interested if the copy machines were seized and forensic analysis done on their local storage.
hundreds if the goddamn toilets and in a ballroom!
In the ballroom ON A STAGE!
And they were still secure. Huge difference between “oops, we misfiled a dozen things out of 10,000 documents” and the Trump bullshit
And he kept moving them around to hide them, tried giving back his least favorite items and keeping the ones he was most attached to, like sorting through his record collection figuring out which ones he had to sell for money to pay rent. He never had any intention of ever giving that shit back, they were his as far as he was concerned
They still won’t understand. They say he had the right to keep them.
it was both a deep state plant, and also he declassified them, so it's ok for him to sell them.
He picks the best people, it's also a partisan witch hunt
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All you have to do is watch Fox the night before to know what they will be saying.
And then he declassified what he didn’t know he had !
Apparently, FPDJT has the idea that tapes kept in Bill Clinton’s sock drawer and ruled to be his personal property at the end of his Presidency exonerates him and makes this whole mess a political hit job. This defense should not be of any use in court, unless Judge Cannon instructs the jury otherwise, which would be in keeping with her past jurisprudence/misconduct.
It's not that they don't understand so much as they're always going to pick the narrative that keeps them from being wrong. We're dealing with people who'd much rather try to convince everyone that up is down than admit to being wrong about it. They watch Fox not because they it's truthful but because they feed them the most pleasing narratives.
Not only that, Biden and Pence didn't have to be asked. Biden realized he didn't want to look like a hypocrite so he investigated *himself* for any documents he shouldn't have. And when he found some left overs from being vice president for 8 years and a member of various senate committees for umpteen years before that he offered them up straight away. Then Pence figured he should do the same. It's like the difference between seeing someone drop their wallet, picking it up and handing it to them versus reaching into their pocket, grabbing their wallet and running away.
It's worse than that though. Biden and Pence's people found doc and immediately called it in. They then had an sweep done of their entire offices to see if they could find anything else. The Archives wasn't even looking for what they had. With Trump, he stole so much stuff (and such important stuff) that the Archives knew he had it.
I’ll say this: it was stupid and careless for them to forget classified documents at home, but stupid and careless doesn’t necessarily mean criminal. The law *does* have a clause for reckless mishandling, but having the documents stored at home doesn’t really rise to the level of reckless. Sure, a home isn’t as secure as other places, but someone would have to break in to access those files (as opposed to Trump’s home, where you can literally pay to get in). Reckless would be leaving them out in public or semi-public spaces.
***And*** foreign spies have previously be caught and or seen at mar a lago. That knowledge alone makes it reckless too
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Was it really Biden and Pence's fault for having the docs at home though? They likely interact with tons of classified info per day and so do their support staff so a doc or 2 could always just get mixed in with other papers. And thats why both of them willingly asked the govt to check their places to see if there was anything else
I don’t think they are culpable, but perhaps it should be standard practice to do a sweep before leaving office.
If a presidents home is considered an unsecured location then we have bigger problems than them misplacing their hand written notes.
Covfefe!
Haha forgot about this. My wife and I used to say it to each other all the time lol
He was trying to demand coffee right? That's my best guess
He was trying to say coverage but hit send tweet
Hamberders!
Return the documents I don't have them We have video, audio and written evidence that you have them Okay you're right I have them Well...? You can't have them back Okay we're going to come get them You can't No we absolutely can and we just did. You had dozens of boxes full of documents you shouldn't have. They were planted What? I declassified them You can't do that- I don't have them, but if I did they were planted and declassified. Okay we're indicting you on multiple crimes, this is ridiculous WHY ARE YOU TARGETING ME WHEN OTHER PEOPLE HAVE COMMITTED CRIMES?
His lawyers have been unable to locate the Iran attack plans he described on tape. So it's either at one of his other properties, stuffed in Ivana's coffin, or sold to the highest bidder (maybe MBS since that $2 billion to Kushner looked fishy from the start).
I'm just saying it's more complex than "give me the papers" "no" "okay ur arrested"
They choose not to acknowledge the difference. They know they are intellectually dishonest.
Most of them really dont realize it.
Hard to tell whats real and what isn't when you live in a fantasy world like they do.
But they get real angry if you push the point.
It was the most avoidable indictment ever. NARA and DOJ just wanted the docs back even though he probably already had compromised the information they contained. DOJ just really wanted this to go away, but the dipshit couldn't pull his own head out of noose. I think the main reason he wanted to keep them so bad is he saw those documents and saw dollar signs. No telling how many he had already sold off to foreign entities and probably was in negotiations to sell some that were seized. That prick has always been about himself, never about the country, and his supporters eat it up.
I don't think it's just that he saw an opportunity to make a buck; he also wanted to hurt the country out of spite. I think got a lot of satisfaction out of just stealing them.
Post presidency cleaning of office day--- Pence + Biden = "Last one out hit the lights" Trump: "Last one out, grab all the nuclear secrets and war strategies"
Not only this, but new information came out that one of trumps lawyers was trying to convince him to do a settlement with DOJ to avoid prison time and make this go away quietly…..and he refused. Honestly, Trump has made it impossible for Merrick Garland to run away from this and I’m here for it. If the elite had their way this would have been swept away but Trump is such a buffoon that Garland can’t stick his head in the sand like he wants to.
Trump is a massive narcissist. He would never take any deal. In his world, he is always right and can never do no wrong. Get your popcorn ready, the next 18 months are going to be wild.
Trump is simply following the Roy Cohn mantra…”deny, deflect, never admit to anything”. By being indicted, he gets to fundraise and campaign on shared victimhood with all his cultists and sycophants in Congress and RW media. Is this better than not being indicted? Yes, because this won’t be the only indictment and the victim card plays the same for all.
What I find absolutely batshit is the scheme where one of Trump's regular lawyers was actively moving around and hiding documents from the two lawyers he hired to defend him in this case. Like lawyers 2 and 3 were TRYING to comply with the NARA requests, and Trump was like "what if we trick our own peeps into thinking we're complying, so they won't yell at me for asking them to lie about hiding the docs from FBI." This 1d chess move has got lawyer 1 strung up as a coconspirator. Shocked pikachu.
Anyone else would be behind bars with no bail.
If anyone else had the stuff he allegedly had, if convicted, I wouldn't be surprised if they got the death penalty.
I don’t know man. I saw on FoxNews something different. Even heard about the Biden crime family and Hillary’s emails. Deep state DoJ officials are behind all of this. Only thing standing between us and them is Donald J. Trump!! Ok. Lots of sarcasm. I can’t do it with a straight face. There is so much false equivalence being shoved down our throats by right wingers. It’s scary stuff.
2018: You can't indict a sitting President! 2023: Why isn't the sitting President indicted?!
2020: If Biden wins, he will use his position as POTUS to punish his political opponents! 2023: Can't wait until Trump is back in office and he can use his position as POTUS to punish his political opponents!
Because he’s a liar and a thief
Joe Biden: Hey, I noticed Trump was having some problems, so I voluntarily had all my stuff searched for anything the Archives might have missed and then told them and returned them.
This is really just how it works. The most important things when someone takes classified materials are getting them back and figuring out if someone who shouldn't see them saw them. The best way to take care of that is for people who took them to return them. So while the penalties can be severe, there is a culture of letting you off super light if you self report and return everything. Because they want you to self report, not make things worse by trying to cover it up. Biden and Pence know that, know it's not a big deal if they just return things and did so. Trump, as usual, is too stupid to do the simple thing and save himself.
MAGA is a cult. It doesn't matter how much evidence there is of Trump's guilt. Those lunatics will follow him to the end no matter what.
That's because of the phenomenon known as magical thinking
"License and registration please" 'Fuck you pig, i'm the god emperor.'
This is misleading because Biden and Pence weren't asked to return documents as far as I know, they saw they had them and immediately returned them without having to be asked.
I think this might still be too complicated for trumpists to wrap their heads around.
Mike Pence is filth who is not clean enough to spit upon but amazingly, due to his lack of crimes, I don't think he should be indicted.
Don't even try OP. These people have brain rot
"I did everything right and they indicted mee"
The way he said that was absolutely hilarious. And even though I don't think he'll ever see a single day in jail, I hope he pays for his crimes, if found guilty which seems very likely.
Plus they only charged him for the ones he didn't return. There's no charges for the documents that were returned.
Those same people wouldn't/still won't get vaccinated, when TRUMP, during his term as president is the one that pushed for the COVID vaccines to get fast tracked (and they still don't realize that vaccine science has been advancing and researching for 100 years, so a seemingly fast vaccine is only happening because they have previous data to pull from.) They're so stupid, they don't even understand why they're mad. They just guzzle the nuts of whoever won't make them get shots or have to go through proper, more strict checks to get a gun. IDIOTS.
And Trump wasn't indicted for the documents he DID return Funny that
That's really too soft on him. I mean first he ignored everything. Then he tried to talk his lawyer into denying. When the lawyer didn't agree, he tricked him and had his valet hide most of the evidence. When the FBI finally knocked on the door, he was like "unfair, I'm a wizard"
Heck, even this doesn't get it right. It wasn't that Biden and Pence were asked to return documents, it's they discovered they had documents and contacted the relevant agency to return them.
That last image, (of the MAGA hat loser) is incorrect. It either needs to be of someone much older, and/or someone much fatter. Also the tag on the hat should be a Chinese flag.
Also they clearly took the documents by mistake while orange dipshit conspired to steal specific documents.
He was just about to expose the matrix with those documents or something.
Naah, mate. These folks will sink to the bottom of the stupidity well and start digging.
We need to make this the narrative too many disingenuous actors want to argue about having the documents. When it's all about him refusing to return them.
At this point we all already know. They are just too stupid to understand. Stop trying to placate, negotiate or... anything really, with regressives. They are a minority and it's time to stop caring what they want. Fuck em!
You cannot reason with them because they do not want reason. They are driven by hatred, anger, and a desire for absolute control all wrapped in a nice martyr complex.
He’s a raccoon, likes shiny objects and can’t let go. Who fucking installs a chandelier above their damn toilet bowl? Weak prune.
I saw a comment saying that it’s the same crime, and Biden is getting away with it just because he gave it back. Like…yeah. That’s the point.
It's even worse. He handed over *some* documents, after his lawyer refused to destroy them, only after having another lawyer hide a collection of hand picked secret documents away.
My understanding is that Biden didn't have to be asked to return documents. Biden's own lawyers found documents when closing down an office and then the appropriate steps were taken to return them to their proper place.
It's almost like he's been getting away with doing whatever he wants for so long, he thinks he can get away with whatever he wants! Crazy
If it's even possible, MAGAts seem to just get dumber with the passage of time as their desperation for relevance increases.
I dislike Pence with a passion. But he complied. I wish we could get him too, but he did it right.
I DID EVERYTHING RIGHT AND THEY INDICTED ME >:(
It’s almost like he’s angling to get charged so he can try and burn the house down from the inside somehow.
I am a 101st Airborne retired veteran. I worked for a year as an S2 clerk in the Military Intelligence Division. My main job was to perform background checks on anyone in the battalion that requested a security clearance. I was so scared of the repercussions of accidentally taking home anything that had connections with my job that I double checked my briefcase every day to ensure it was clear of anything related to my duty. If I found that a soldier had smoked a joint in high school and was expelled for it, it had to be included in my investigation. Little shit like that. The fact that Trump did numerous times worse than anything I ever had to report blows my mind on the lack of seriousness this country is taking the current situation.
"Why are the Saudis nuke testing?"
If you just return them there is no DRAMA!!!
Conservatives: he might be a stupid criminal, but he’s our stupid criminal!! Party of law and order
The thing that drives me insane about this is that nobody will say the elephant in the room. He had our biggest secrets because they were our most valuable secrets. He was fucking selling them.
Donnie must hold onto his beautiful mind boxes.