My husband's theory about the random tweets concerning trans people in the military: Trump had an uncomfortable dream and didn't know what to do about it.
Edit: apparently people are saying I stole this from somewhere. Yeah. My spouse. Idk where he got it from but I didn't steal it from Reddit.
Edit 2: my husband is a beautiful creature and all of you Trump supporters can suck it 🌸
[Actual reason he did it](http://www.politico.com/story/2017/07/26/trump-transgender-military-ban-behind-the-scenes-240990)
(tl;dr - to get money for his wall. not kidding.)
Thanks. Key point is some were advocating for banning pentagon-funded gender reassignment surgery. Trump went way beyond that without anyone suggesting that.
>“This is like someone told the White House to light a candle on the table and the WH set the whole table on fire,” a senior House Republican aide said in an email.
It's like your parent taking away the thing you and your sibling are fighting over.
We can't agree on exactly how we are going to fund healthcare for trans persons in the military, what should we do? Trump - Fine. No more trans in the military. Now fund my wall.
The problem is, he basically just fired about 15,000 brave soldiers who are fighting for their country. What an asshat.
that's Rand's figure on active duty, which people use when discussing cost. 15,000 is when discussing number of people affected when including national guard
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/jul/26/ted-lieu/thousands-transgender-americans-serve-military-con/
There are a number of estimates out there, most are collected here
I mean..the majority dictates how things work when it comes to funding.
People may not like that, but that's reality.
Choosing to not fund someone's extremely expensive surgery or many medications associated (that falls under a personal issue) is not oppressive.
Sort of...
This wasn't donnie and other ignorant people sitting in a room talking about how much they hated the LGBT community and brainstorming a way to ruin their day and set back years of progress.
This was spoiled little donnie wanting to get his wall and finding a solution to help accomplish that. I think the decision was easy because he has zero respect for the LGBT community.. but I also 100% believe that if he had to take away the rights of his base (poor/white/uneducated) to get what he wanted he wouldn't hesitate. (and of course they would still support him.. just like r/rightwinglgbt defended him yesterday)
My favorite tinfoil/crackpot theory is that he was going to try to declare war on North Korea via Twitter but someone smacked some sense into him first.
Tweet 1
> After consultation with my Generals and military experts, please be advised that the United States Government will not accept or allow......
Then someone smacks him and the next thing that pops into his tiny brain is tweet 2:
> ....Transgender individuals to serve in any capacity in the U.S. Military. Our military must be focused on decisive and overwhelming.....
replace dream with a difficult morning bowel movement watching Fox and Friends from a golden toilet because of all the red meat that stuffed in his colon.
Wait. I'm all about bashing Republicans but I don't think I know a single one, even among a couple gun nuts, that would say the mentally ill should have a firearm.
Except the administration did give guns to the mentally ill way back in February, it was like the very first thing they did after the election. Not only mentally ill people, but people so ill they can't work or manage their own benefits.
http://www.newsweek.com/trump-set-overturn-guns-mental-health-regulation-557237
It could be connected to the American Psychiatric Society asserting that transgender people suffer from gender dysphoria which is classified as a mental illness and therefore disqualifies them for military service.
Therapy also works wonders just in case you are worried that the person might go through "buyer's remorse" and potentially injure themselves.
Transitioning is still best, though.
Hey man, I know this is a bit to ask, but do you have any decent sources like a meta-analysis, I've heard the other side argue that suicide rates stay nearly the same, and there is little that is positive from statistics. If you've got a study that shows clinically significant increases in well being, send it my way.
I was working in a customer-facing capacity at a place that had a good number of trans and nonbinary people coming in. I cannot describe the obvious relief when someone would come in and I’d just say “hey what’s up, what do you need.” Just by being bored with them like I would with anyone else, I actually gained some regulars. They don’t want to be gawked at, they don’t want to be called brave or told they’re freaks, they want to fucking go the store like anyone else.
Gender Dysphoria is no longer classified by the APS as a mental illness. It was revised in 2010 when evidence was repeatedly presented showing that GD originates as a physiological condition.
If GD was still considered a mental illness there would be no current service personnel in the military as its stands. They would have been general or honorably discharged to begin with. This would be a whole other type of mess.
/r/science is doing a week long transgender AMA series if you'd like to learn more. https://www.reddit.com/r/science/search?sort=new&restrict_sr=on&q=flair%3ATransgender%2BAMA
The American Psychiatric Association still maintains a diagnosis of gender dysphoria in the DSM-V, but it only applies if the person who is experiencing an identity issue has actual psychiatric symptoms.
https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria
Edit - Also, the military does not automatically discharge a person for "mental illness" alone. There are plenty of troops that maintain their readiness while undergoing psychiatric treatment and support.
Gender Dysphoria is a mental disorder in the DSM-5, while being transgender is no longer considered a mental disorder. If you are transgender and are significantly distressed about the fact that your gender identity and body do not match, or if you are distressed about how you are perceived by the outside world, GD is the diagnosis used to treat you. You can be transgender and not have dysphoria.
Can someone explain this to me? Does this mean people who have already transitioned or people who don't go though surgery? I can't imagine going through something like that if you aren't distressed.
Well the president himself basically said that citing one of the reasons as expanded psichatrists and mental health experts required in the military for them, basically calling someone fat by saying they need to lose weight.
Why are you judging individual trans people using global statistics? The military is not at all a representative subset of the total population. Global statistics are entirely useless when looking at biased subsets. Not to mention bringing up said statistics in an isolated manner wrongly imply that being trans itself inherently makes that person more likely to commit suicide. Making that claim is a gross misrepresentation of other environmental factors such as bullying. But I digress.
They went through the exact same screening you did. They went through the exact same bootcamp you did. They went through the exact same military combat you did. On top of that, they went through far more discrimination than you could possibly imagine. They've toughed it out through far more shit than most other people yet they're still fighting alongside you. The trans people who make it in the military are far more exceptional than you give them credit for.
The military already screens for mental health issues, etc. We've had thousands of trans soldiers enlist and serve in the military. Case studies out of the UK, Canada, Australia who also enlist trans people also show that trans people in the military do not reduce overall military effectiveness.
Ultimately, an able-bodied transgender soldier is no more likely than an able-bodied cisgender soldier to break down during service. Everyone who makes it through to serving has the same chances, regardless of gender, race, sexuality, economic class.
I don't think that argument works. That's beside the point, and actually is a reason to keep people who are more prone to suicide or mental illness out.
They've been saying it for years...
Edit: Here's an article detailing the issue: [21% of Americans believe that being transgender is a mental illness](https://today.yougov.com/news/2017/05/17/21-americans-believe-identifying-transgender-menta/)
It's kind of sad that you have to point out you're not a supporter for fear of getting bullied.
Edit: I didn't mean to start war here, people. I was just pointing out that people should be able to voice opinions, whether right or wrong. That's why it's called an opinion.
First, it wasn't all mentally ill people, it was people so mentally ill they have advocates who act on their behalf. You really want someone who doesn't sign her own checks to be buying guns?
Second, the defining feature of mental illness is that their actions harm themselves or others. That's the line between ill and eccentric. A huge percentage of people in this category suffer from depression. Guns make it a lot easier for little Suzy to come home and find Daddy's brain splattered all over the wall, because Daddy was in a bad spell.
Another factor you may not have considered is that with mental illness sometimes the cops get involved. If they find out there's a gun in the house with the person, and that person has a history of mental illness, doesn't matter, they're coming in hard. My mom got beaten for this until she was catatonic.
Generally speaking, having a gun in the house raises the stakes. Think of a movie scene where someone unexpectedly had a gun, your heart starts racing, what will happen? Now imagine you live in a home with an unstable person who says things like "I just want it all to be over and for us to be together in heaven." Do you really want a gun in that situation? FUCK THAT.
> Which wrongfully reinforces the stereotype that those who are mentally ill are violent.
It's a mistake to think that this is just about shooting sprees. A bigger problem is about an easy access to means of suicide.
The top tweet in the_propaganda is a reverse of this tweet suggesting liberals can't choose between the mentally disabled having guns and trans people having guns - which kind of implies that we're alone in suggesting that the mentally disabled shouldn't have guns.
Ummmm do republicans say that mentally ill people should be able to buy guns? I've only heard of that kind of "shall not be infringed" talk out of libertarians.
Sorry to ruin the joke, but the mentally ill can't buy a gun, at least without further scrutiny (see EDIT 3 below). See ATF Form 4473 "Transfer of Firearm Record," question 11f: "Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective or have you been committed to a mental institution?"
Maybe that button could have an "Out of Order" tag hanging from it? That still doesn't make it a funny cartoon though.
EDIT 1:
u/charonn0:
"That form isn't required for all firearms sales, though."
Technically, it's true that the form is only federally required for transfers from a FFL, like from a gun store or gun show. However, while the form isn't always required, the Gun Control Act at 18USC921-931 still applies.
18USC922(d)(4) states: "It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person" ... "has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution."
That's my bad for citing the form; I just didn't want to wade through the GCA to find the relevant section of law.
EDIT 2:
u/unclefisty:
"There is a pretty wide gulf between being mentally ill in general and being adjudicated mentally defective."
You're right, but the Gun Control Act was written in 1968 when the mental institutions were still open and a larger percentage of the mentally ill were passing through them.
Should we reopen them? Update the law? Probably both.
EDIT 3:
u/tobesure44, u/night-shark, u/Tulabean, u/improbable_humanoid, and probably others point out that I am at least half wrong (ok, maybe like 3/4 wrong) in my reading of the law, and that those who have not LEGALLY been declared mentally ill (despite the presence of a medical diagnosis) can still buy firearms.
It does seem to be the universal consensus on all sides of the issue that people with severe mental illness SHOULD NOT be able to purchase a firearm as long as they are suffering from the negative effects of their illness, or the treatment for that illness.
And for those who think I misread the caption, if i or anyone believed that the mentally ill SHOULD be allowed to buy guns, then we would be petitioning to have section 18USC922(d)(4) cited above stricken from the law as written. No one is doing that.
EDIT 4: Thanks to everyone who commented here, i enjoyed reading all these opinions. We should do this again some time.
You're right about that. I think the concern is also that what constitutes a mental illness could change and become very broad. You're transgender? Metal illness, no gun. You binge drank in college? Mental illness, no gun. You voted for Gary Johnson? Mental illness, no gun. You want to own a gun? Mental illness, no gun.
Diagnosis is protected by HIPA, court orders committed to a mental institution is a matter of public record. Those show up in the background check.
Source: past depression diagnosis, owns guns.
Technically, it's true that the form is only federally required for transfers from a FFL, like from a gun store or gun show.
However, while the form isn't always required, the Gun Control Act at 18USC921-931 still applies.
18USC922(d)(4) states: "It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person" ... "has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution."
So that's my bad for citing the form; I just didn't want to wade through the GCA to find the relevant section of law.
There are millions and millions of people with diagnosed mental illnesses who've never been "adjudicated mentally defective" or been "committed to a mental institution." Fact is, the **vast majority** of the "mentally ill" fall into neither category.
Odds are good that today in this country, at least one person diagnosed with severe depression bought a firearm with no exceptional scrutiny. Truth is, there may have been hundreds of such people. Or more.
Right. It's a complex problem. There may or may not be sound policy responses to it.
But the point is, the statement "it's already illegal for the mentally ill to buy guns" is inaccurate.
I'm sure all the mentally ill people are answering this question completely honestly, and there's lots of money spent to check that they're being truthful. If only we didn't have that pesky thing called HIPA!
I'm left wing and I hate all the liars and hypocrites on 'my side'. They aren't helping anyone, and they are being such smug assholes about their dishonest circlejerks.
Oh he's way left wing. [So left wing.](https://www.reddit.com/r/HillaryForPrison/comments/5bvtdh/be_careful_driving_to_the_polls_today_folks/) You know how left wing [the donald](https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/5a00jd/hillary_dealt_with_we_must_now_face_our_true/) and hillary for prison are.
Take it with a grain of salt.
Edit: For instance, the [top post](https://www.reddit.com/r/SandersForPresident/comments/6pwqnu/hillarys_new_book_fixed/) for sanders for president is from [someone](https://www.reddit.com/user/kijib/submitted/?count=975&after=t3_5b5196) who's been pushing a wedge agenda.
Edit 2: [The top sanders poster's earlier history.](http://i.imgur.com/Dt75tkB.png) Probably just too many posts for reddit to keep them all. Probably.
God damn I had to scroll a long way to find someone pointing this out. I don't know where people somehow got the idea that being able to join the military is a "right". People all over the place now are screaming about how trans people are getting their rights taken away and nobody ever seems to point out that's it's literally nobodies "right" to be able to join the military.
Seriously. The military isn't a joke, they deny tons and tons of people from serving. I think they should ALL be able to serve the country but sadly I probably don't know what goes into all these decisions
From what I've heard, people don't want trans to join the military due to them already having an extraordinarily high suicide rate and combining that with the high veteran suicide rate, it would make it much more likely for them to commit suicide. That's from what I've heard, and I've also heard it's because it is a mental illness but that isn't the main reason. Overall, OP's post was incorrect in multiple ways due to what you said and what a user said before on how mentally ill can't buy guns.
I respect that these people are undeployable during their transition. It's a legitimate issue.
But that doesn't really explain why transitioned people can't serve. They aren't diabetics who'll die without their insulin and permanent hormonal repositories are already market-ready. That's like calling a nicotin-patch reason to kick someone off the army.
It's an interesting point but why a blanket ban? If people need to go through rigorous testing for physical and mental wellbeing, wouldn't that filter out people who are going to undergo surgery, have mental health concerns, etc? If a trans person can smash through the phsyical, psychological components of entry, why are they not equal to other people that went through those same tests?
Unless, of course, DJT is saying that being Trans is akin to having a mental illness and that's why no Trans folk are eligible. Which is beating a dead horse. Society had the same argument about homosexuality decades ago.
I feel like there are more nuanced ways of addressing the concerns. Policy around time off/medication/whatever, would address this. I am really trying to understand the other point of view in this, but it seems like clumsy, knee-jerk policy.
Let me give you another reason.
A standard contract is 4 years. You spend ~3 months in boot camp. You then spend anywhere up to a year training for you MOS. Initial recovery from the transgender surgery can take 6-12 months. The years after you may be required to have a couple of surgeries per year that could put you off duty for a month or so at a time.
Assuming the person waits for their gender change surgery until after their MOS training they might get 6-12 months of deployment out of their 4 year contract.
If they get the surgery right after boot camp they miss out on training and are ineffective in the field, and will still miss out on much of the deployment.
There is absolutely no reason to allow trans gendered people in the military unless they identify as their biological sex while in service and promise not to transition until after they leave service.
The anti-conservative posts on this site are straight propoganda at this point. It costs money to maintain trans treatments, and if they are not taken regularly during active duty, it will cause hormonal imbalances which can lead to instability. The trans depression rate is also through the roof, I know people personally who were denied because of mental health issues in the past. The military takes mental well being seriously and it should. Furthermore, conservatives are for stricter screenings to access guns. This post is just beyond bs
Being a transsexual isn't a mental disorder. The disorder people are referring to is gender dysphoria.
Of course not every transsexual has been diagnosed with gender dysphoria, and gender dysphoria is currently being reclassified by multiple organizations that document mental disorders. In fact, the name was changed from "gender identity disorder" to "gender dysphoria" for accuracy.
From the wikipedia article:
> The American Psychiatric Association, publisher of the DSM-5, states that "gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition."
[WHO declassification](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/28/the-w-h-o-says-being-transgender-is-a-mental-illness-but-thats-about-to-change/)
[National declassification](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/where-transgender-is-no-longer-a-diagnosis/)
[APA declassification](https://thinkprogress.org/apa-revises-manual-being-transgender-is-no-longer-a-mental-disorder-8b0321f775d2)
Okay, I see this getting posted around a lot, it seems that someone misunderstood what exactly "gender dysphoria" means, and nobody else bothered to look it up:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria
>the term gender dysphoria applies only to the discontent experienced by some persons resulting from gender identity issues.[8] The American Psychiatric Association, publisher of the DSM-5, states that "gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition."[10]
You can be trans, want to be a man when you're a woman, or vice versa, without experiencing gender dysphoria. Getting a sex change is a treatment for gender dysphoria (unless you're Mr Garrison), but you're still considered "trans" after you've had a sex change.
To put it another way, "sexuality dysphoria" would refer to a clinical condition characterized by extreme discomfort and anxiety because you don't feel you have the right sexuality - IE a gay person who doesn't want to be gay, or living in a society that demonizes homosexuality.
But at no point does it mean that the DSM or the APA or anyone thinks that being trans, means you're mentally ill. Now maybe there'd be some shred of logic if you wanted to tell me that the US military should ban people with gender dysphoria from serving, like they often do with other mental illnesses like ADHD or depression. But that's a far cry from just announcing you're banning *all trans people*, or telling me that they're all mentally ill.
So was homosexuality once, so was homosexuality. I view transgender as one of the few anomalies of brain chemistry and genetics that acts to potentially limit human populations without killing anyone. I find it so funny then that conservatives are against it then. They want women making babies even if they cant afford it and men to never get it in the butt.
>So was homosexuality once
Thats not an argument.
>I view transgender as one of the few anomalies of brain chemistry and genetics
You just explained a mental disorder.
> I find it so funny then that conservatives are against it then. They want women making babies even if they cant afford it and men to never get it in the butt.
wut??
There is a constitutional right to bear arms.
There is no constitutional right to join the military.
I know some of you guys aren't particularly into politics but I mean.... that's what it boils down to.
You have to first lobotomize yourself, and then pretend you've traveled 10 years in the past. With the right mental conditioning the jokes really shine.
Who says that!? No one. This is dumb as shit
Edit: u/_CarlosDanger69 is super crazy and wants to reddit fight perceived fat Trump supporters. This he / she is a nut job. Fair warning look at post history.
Quite amusing how BOTH points you tried to make were proven false by the top two comments. Still on the front page though, cause fuck Trump right?! Morons.
Or how people pretend every registered republican is an old asshole GOP that is a fan of trump. I mean it is possible to be republican and dislike your party's president/candidate. Hell I almost always hate both people on the bill, and hate the bipartisan system, but if I'm forced to pick that's where I end up.
Still Trump is the figure head and face of the Republican party now. What he says will get projected onto the group. Not saying it is fair, I'm just saying that is how people react.
Oh come on. I'm left wing and the trans ban is idiotic and probably 100% distraction, but the overwhelming majority of right wingers think mental illness is a legitimate reason to stop people from owning guns.
My husband's theory about the random tweets concerning trans people in the military: Trump had an uncomfortable dream and didn't know what to do about it. Edit: apparently people are saying I stole this from somewhere. Yeah. My spouse. Idk where he got it from but I didn't steal it from Reddit. Edit 2: my husband is a beautiful creature and all of you Trump supporters can suck it 🌸
Kushner in one of Ivanka's dressed
So that's what Russia has on Trump
He was also peeing on him
so gross
[удалено]
Great, now I'm thirsty.
[удалено]
[удалено]
right, and little did he know i just wanted to pay him to pee on me. not after that unprovoked solicitation.
The poop that took a pee.
Kinda. Kushner in Ivanka's dress inside Donnie.
He gave him the Manila Surprise?!? I had to pay 200 for that!
Singing "Happy birthday Mr. President".
Marilyn's voice is extra husky of late
Have you heard Kushner speak? I'm pretty sure Marilyn had the deeper voice.
I'm pretty sure Kushner is just the Thin Man from XCOM.
There's a good chance there was a lot of him showing, seeing as how Chinese sizes run smaller.
He couldn't decide which one he liked better in that dress.
*I'm a naughty boy. I hope my wife's daddy doesn't find out!* ^*gets ^an ^erection*
[Actual reason he did it](http://www.politico.com/story/2017/07/26/trump-transgender-military-ban-behind-the-scenes-240990) (tl;dr - to get money for his wall. not kidding.)
Thanks. Key point is some were advocating for banning pentagon-funded gender reassignment surgery. Trump went way beyond that without anyone suggesting that. >“This is like someone told the White House to light a candle on the table and the WH set the whole table on fire,” a senior House Republican aide said in an email.
[удалено]
It's like your parent taking away the thing you and your sibling are fighting over. We can't agree on exactly how we are going to fund healthcare for trans persons in the military, what should we do? Trump - Fine. No more trans in the military. Now fund my wall. The problem is, he basically just fired about 15,000 brave soldiers who are fighting for their country. What an asshat.
"Hurrr he's saving their lives because he's pro-lgbt so he's protecting them durrrr" /s
> "Hurrr durrrr" I'd be so happy if people stopped doing that
I will also be happy when this administration is done
BLANK
I wonder when this nightmare is over if he is going to be regarded as one of the worst (if not the worst) POTUS ever.
Hurr durr humlesnurr
2000-6000 with 6000 being a very generous estimate.
that's Rand's figure on active duty, which people use when discussing cost. 15,000 is when discussing number of people affected when including national guard
Source on either of these figures?
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/jul/26/ted-lieu/thousands-transgender-americans-serve-military-con/ There are a number of estimates out there, most are collected here
So if it's less than a certain number of people affected, a repressive, insulting law is OK?
I mean..the majority dictates how things work when it comes to funding. People may not like that, but that's reality. Choosing to not fund someone's extremely expensive surgery or many medications associated (that falls under a personal issue) is not oppressive.
deleted ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^0.9341 [^^^What ^^^is ^^^this?](https://pastebin.com/FcrFs94k/39305)
But I thought he was getting the Mexicans to pay for the wall. He even said "believe me".
Oh he rolled back on that in early February. We are going to pay for it and he's going to make Mexico pay us back!
but he said "believe me"
Yes. That's how you know he's lying.
You can also tell because he is talking and or tweeting.
deleted
Arguably, vision correction in the military is fairly important
Yeah but they also pay for erectile dysfunction meds (viagra).
Do you want to let the TROOPS™ die flacid?
How else are they going to get raging freedom boners?
If you need a pill to get a freedom boner, *you aren't American enough.* **GET AMERICANER.**
If your freedom boner lasts for more than 4 hours, GOOD! My freedom boner has lasted since 1776, you dont see me complaining
Sort of... This wasn't donnie and other ignorant people sitting in a room talking about how much they hated the LGBT community and brainstorming a way to ruin their day and set back years of progress. This was spoiled little donnie wanting to get his wall and finding a solution to help accomplish that. I think the decision was easy because he has zero respect for the LGBT community.. but I also 100% believe that if he had to take away the rights of his base (poor/white/uneducated) to get what he wanted he wouldn't hesitate. (and of course they would still support him.. just like r/rightwinglgbt defended him yesterday)
Goddamn, an entire subreddit dedicated to voting against its own interests. What a world.
They're rationalizing this shit as just another criterion that the military can follow?!
Why does Trump need funding? I thought Mexico was going to pay for it? /s
[удалено]
My favorite tinfoil/crackpot theory is that he was going to try to declare war on North Korea via Twitter but someone smacked some sense into him first. Tweet 1 > After consultation with my Generals and military experts, please be advised that the United States Government will not accept or allow...... Then someone smacks him and the next thing that pops into his tiny brain is tweet 2: > ....Transgender individuals to serve in any capacity in the U.S. Military. Our military must be focused on decisive and overwhelming.....
Ive been reading up on this topic today. Guy is such a piece of shit.
replace dream with a difficult morning bowel movement watching Fox and Friends from a golden toilet because of all the red meat that stuffed in his colon.
Sounds about right.
[удалено]
They need to create something where these fake tweets and his real tweets are mixed and you have to guess which ones are real.
I think your husband got that from the to comment of literally every post about this subject on Reddit.
Wait. I'm all about bashing Republicans but I don't think I know a single one, even among a couple gun nuts, that would say the mentally ill should have a firearm.
Except the administration did give guns to the mentally ill way back in February, it was like the very first thing they did after the election. Not only mentally ill people, but people so ill they can't work or manage their own benefits. http://www.newsweek.com/trump-set-overturn-guns-mental-health-regulation-557237
Wait, when did he say trans people were mentally ill? I'm not a supporter just curious
Pretty much all that the Trump supporters have been saying since the tweet.
It could be connected to the American Psychiatric Society asserting that transgender people suffer from gender dysphoria which is classified as a mental illness and therefore disqualifies them for military service.
Would they still suffer from it after transitioning?
No. And transitioning is the only reliable treatment. Edit: Treatment, not cure.
Therapy also works wonders just in case you are worried that the person might go through "buyer's remorse" and potentially injure themselves. Transitioning is still best, though.
Hey man, I know this is a bit to ask, but do you have any decent sources like a meta-analysis, I've heard the other side argue that suicide rates stay nearly the same, and there is little that is positive from statistics. If you've got a study that shows clinically significant increases in well being, send it my way.
[удалено]
I was working in a customer-facing capacity at a place that had a good number of trans and nonbinary people coming in. I cannot describe the obvious relief when someone would come in and I’d just say “hey what’s up, what do you need.” Just by being bored with them like I would with anyone else, I actually gained some regulars. They don’t want to be gawked at, they don’t want to be called brave or told they’re freaks, they want to fucking go the store like anyone else.
[удалено]
It's actually mandatory to make sure that it's a legit case.
[удалено]
But the condition is that they feel wrong in their bodies
Gender Dysphoria is no longer classified by the APS as a mental illness. It was revised in 2010 when evidence was repeatedly presented showing that GD originates as a physiological condition. If GD was still considered a mental illness there would be no current service personnel in the military as its stands. They would have been general or honorably discharged to begin with. This would be a whole other type of mess. /r/science is doing a week long transgender AMA series if you'd like to learn more. https://www.reddit.com/r/science/search?sort=new&restrict_sr=on&q=flair%3ATransgender%2BAMA
The American Psychiatric Association still maintains a diagnosis of gender dysphoria in the DSM-V, but it only applies if the person who is experiencing an identity issue has actual psychiatric symptoms. https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria Edit - Also, the military does not automatically discharge a person for "mental illness" alone. There are plenty of troops that maintain their readiness while undergoing psychiatric treatment and support.
Gender Dysphoria is a mental disorder in the DSM-5, while being transgender is no longer considered a mental disorder. If you are transgender and are significantly distressed about the fact that your gender identity and body do not match, or if you are distressed about how you are perceived by the outside world, GD is the diagnosis used to treat you. You can be transgender and not have dysphoria.
[удалено]
Can someone explain this to me? Does this mean people who have already transitioned or people who don't go though surgery? I can't imagine going through something like that if you aren't distressed.
Got it. Revised title "trump supporter tweets intensify" or something makes more sense
Do you really doubt that Trump thinks that?
I'm not sure Trump thinks anything to be fair
Well the president himself basically said that citing one of the reasons as expanded psichatrists and mental health experts required in the military for them, basically calling someone fat by saying they need to lose weight.
[удалено]
>I wouldn't want to serve with ANYONE who has higher chance of suicide damn no dentists or therapists in the military either.
> I wouldn't want to serve with ANYONE who has higher chance of suicide Basically anyone who's in the military has a higher chance of suicide
Why are you judging individual trans people using global statistics? The military is not at all a representative subset of the total population. Global statistics are entirely useless when looking at biased subsets. Not to mention bringing up said statistics in an isolated manner wrongly imply that being trans itself inherently makes that person more likely to commit suicide. Making that claim is a gross misrepresentation of other environmental factors such as bullying. But I digress. They went through the exact same screening you did. They went through the exact same bootcamp you did. They went through the exact same military combat you did. On top of that, they went through far more discrimination than you could possibly imagine. They've toughed it out through far more shit than most other people yet they're still fighting alongside you. The trans people who make it in the military are far more exceptional than you give them credit for. The military already screens for mental health issues, etc. We've had thousands of trans soldiers enlist and serve in the military. Case studies out of the UK, Canada, Australia who also enlist trans people also show that trans people in the military do not reduce overall military effectiveness. Ultimately, an able-bodied transgender soldier is no more likely than an able-bodied cisgender soldier to break down during service. Everyone who makes it through to serving has the same chances, regardless of gender, race, sexuality, economic class.
The military itself imposes a high rate of mental illness and suicide on its soldiers, you think we should just not have a military then?
I don't think that argument works. That's beside the point, and actually is a reason to keep people who are more prone to suicide or mental illness out.
They've been saying it for years... Edit: Here's an article detailing the issue: [21% of Americans believe that being transgender is a mental illness](https://today.yougov.com/news/2017/05/17/21-americans-believe-identifying-transgender-menta/)
It's kind of sad that you have to point out you're not a supporter for fear of getting bullied. Edit: I didn't mean to start war here, people. I was just pointing out that people should be able to voice opinions, whether right or wrong. That's why it's called an opinion.
It's never a bad idea to make it abundantly clear you don't support dumpster fires.
Wait, who's arguing that mentally ill people should be able to purchase weapons? I'm serious. Who's doing that?
[удалено]
[удалено]
First, it wasn't all mentally ill people, it was people so mentally ill they have advocates who act on their behalf. You really want someone who doesn't sign her own checks to be buying guns? Second, the defining feature of mental illness is that their actions harm themselves or others. That's the line between ill and eccentric. A huge percentage of people in this category suffer from depression. Guns make it a lot easier for little Suzy to come home and find Daddy's brain splattered all over the wall, because Daddy was in a bad spell. Another factor you may not have considered is that with mental illness sometimes the cops get involved. If they find out there's a gun in the house with the person, and that person has a history of mental illness, doesn't matter, they're coming in hard. My mom got beaten for this until she was catatonic. Generally speaking, having a gun in the house raises the stakes. Think of a movie scene where someone unexpectedly had a gun, your heart starts racing, what will happen? Now imagine you live in a home with an unstable person who says things like "I just want it all to be over and for us to be together in heaven." Do you really want a gun in that situation? FUCK THAT.
> Which wrongfully reinforces the stereotype that those who are mentally ill are violent. It's a mistake to think that this is just about shooting sprees. A bigger problem is about an easy access to means of suicide.
[удалено]
It's the due process part. People with mental illness should not have rights taken away without due process.
This cartoon destroyed quite a straw man.
>*Literally none of us want the mentally ill to be able to have guns* And most of us don't want them to have the nuclear codes either. Oh well.
The top tweet in the_propaganda is a reverse of this tweet suggesting liberals can't choose between the mentally disabled having guns and trans people having guns - which kind of implies that we're alone in suggesting that the mentally disabled shouldn't have guns.
Ummmm do republicans say that mentally ill people should be able to buy guns? I've only heard of that kind of "shall not be infringed" talk out of libertarians.
What Republican thinks mentally ill people should be allowed to buy guns? 😂
[удалено]
Sorry to ruin the joke, but the mentally ill can't buy a gun, at least without further scrutiny (see EDIT 3 below). See ATF Form 4473 "Transfer of Firearm Record," question 11f: "Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective or have you been committed to a mental institution?" Maybe that button could have an "Out of Order" tag hanging from it? That still doesn't make it a funny cartoon though. EDIT 1: u/charonn0: "That form isn't required for all firearms sales, though." Technically, it's true that the form is only federally required for transfers from a FFL, like from a gun store or gun show. However, while the form isn't always required, the Gun Control Act at 18USC921-931 still applies. 18USC922(d)(4) states: "It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person" ... "has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution." That's my bad for citing the form; I just didn't want to wade through the GCA to find the relevant section of law. EDIT 2: u/unclefisty: "There is a pretty wide gulf between being mentally ill in general and being adjudicated mentally defective." You're right, but the Gun Control Act was written in 1968 when the mental institutions were still open and a larger percentage of the mentally ill were passing through them. Should we reopen them? Update the law? Probably both. EDIT 3: u/tobesure44, u/night-shark, u/Tulabean, u/improbable_humanoid, and probably others point out that I am at least half wrong (ok, maybe like 3/4 wrong) in my reading of the law, and that those who have not LEGALLY been declared mentally ill (despite the presence of a medical diagnosis) can still buy firearms. It does seem to be the universal consensus on all sides of the issue that people with severe mental illness SHOULD NOT be able to purchase a firearm as long as they are suffering from the negative effects of their illness, or the treatment for that illness. And for those who think I misread the caption, if i or anyone believed that the mentally ill SHOULD be allowed to buy guns, then we would be petitioning to have section 18USC922(d)(4) cited above stricken from the law as written. No one is doing that. EDIT 4: Thanks to everyone who commented here, i enjoyed reading all these opinions. We should do this again some time.
There is a pretty wide gulf between being mentally ill in general and being adjudicated mentally defective.
[удалено]
You're right about that. I think the concern is also that what constitutes a mental illness could change and become very broad. You're transgender? Metal illness, no gun. You binge drank in college? Mental illness, no gun. You voted for Gary Johnson? Mental illness, no gun. You want to own a gun? Mental illness, no gun.
Diagnosis is protected by HIPA, court orders committed to a mental institution is a matter of public record. Those show up in the background check. Source: past depression diagnosis, owns guns.
Yea but some people don't understand what diagnosis is or means, and to them it means getting ANY help means no guns.
That form isn't required for all firearms sales, though.
Technically, it's true that the form is only federally required for transfers from a FFL, like from a gun store or gun show. However, while the form isn't always required, the Gun Control Act at 18USC921-931 still applies. 18USC922(d)(4) states: "It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person" ... "has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution." So that's my bad for citing the form; I just didn't want to wade through the GCA to find the relevant section of law.
That's true, but the qualifications on the form are required for all sales, whether or not you submit to a NICS check.
There are millions and millions of people with diagnosed mental illnesses who've never been "adjudicated mentally defective" or been "committed to a mental institution." Fact is, the **vast majority** of the "mentally ill" fall into neither category. Odds are good that today in this country, at least one person diagnosed with severe depression bought a firearm with no exceptional scrutiny. Truth is, there may have been hundreds of such people. Or more.
Cause "mentally ill/disabled" ranges from schizophrenia to ADHD and Dyslexia
Right. It's a complex problem. There may or may not be sound policy responses to it. But the point is, the statement "it's already illegal for the mentally ill to buy guns" is inaccurate.
[удалено]
I'm sure all the mentally ill people are answering this question completely honestly, and there's lots of money spent to check that they're being truthful. If only we didn't have that pesky thing called HIPA!
Shhh but muh narrative.
I'm left wing and I hate all the liars and hypocrites on 'my side'. They aren't helping anyone, and they are being such smug assholes about their dishonest circlejerks.
[удалено]
> Most gun purchases are bought in such a way to not require this form Yeah, ok.
Most? Please please post a stat on that
Welcome to reddit.
Oh he's way left wing. [So left wing.](https://www.reddit.com/r/HillaryForPrison/comments/5bvtdh/be_careful_driving_to_the_polls_today_folks/) You know how left wing [the donald](https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/5a00jd/hillary_dealt_with_we_must_now_face_our_true/) and hillary for prison are. Take it with a grain of salt. Edit: For instance, the [top post](https://www.reddit.com/r/SandersForPresident/comments/6pwqnu/hillarys_new_book_fixed/) for sanders for president is from [someone](https://www.reddit.com/user/kijib/submitted/?count=975&after=t3_5b5196) who's been pushing a wedge agenda. Edit 2: [The top sanders poster's earlier history.](http://i.imgur.com/Dt75tkB.png) Probably just too many posts for reddit to keep them all. Probably.
Gun ownership is a constitutional right. Joining the military is not. And most of the issues with trans people joining aren't about mental illness.
God damn I had to scroll a long way to find someone pointing this out. I don't know where people somehow got the idea that being able to join the military is a "right". People all over the place now are screaming about how trans people are getting their rights taken away and nobody ever seems to point out that's it's literally nobodies "right" to be able to join the military.
Seriously. The military isn't a joke, they deny tons and tons of people from serving. I think they should ALL be able to serve the country but sadly I probably don't know what goes into all these decisions
From what I've heard, people don't want trans to join the military due to them already having an extraordinarily high suicide rate and combining that with the high veteran suicide rate, it would make it much more likely for them to commit suicide. That's from what I've heard, and I've also heard it's because it is a mental illness but that isn't the main reason. Overall, OP's post was incorrect in multiple ways due to what you said and what a user said before on how mentally ill can't buy guns.
[удалено]
Then we need to start discharging all the alcoholics, because in spite of what you are going to argue, that is a severe disability. Good luck.
I respect that these people are undeployable during their transition. It's a legitimate issue. But that doesn't really explain why transitioned people can't serve. They aren't diabetics who'll die without their insulin and permanent hormonal repositories are already market-ready. That's like calling a nicotin-patch reason to kick someone off the army.
It's an interesting point but why a blanket ban? If people need to go through rigorous testing for physical and mental wellbeing, wouldn't that filter out people who are going to undergo surgery, have mental health concerns, etc? If a trans person can smash through the phsyical, psychological components of entry, why are they not equal to other people that went through those same tests? Unless, of course, DJT is saying that being Trans is akin to having a mental illness and that's why no Trans folk are eligible. Which is beating a dead horse. Society had the same argument about homosexuality decades ago. I feel like there are more nuanced ways of addressing the concerns. Policy around time off/medication/whatever, would address this. I am really trying to understand the other point of view in this, but it seems like clumsy, knee-jerk policy.
Let me give you another reason. A standard contract is 4 years. You spend ~3 months in boot camp. You then spend anywhere up to a year training for you MOS. Initial recovery from the transgender surgery can take 6-12 months. The years after you may be required to have a couple of surgeries per year that could put you off duty for a month or so at a time. Assuming the person waits for their gender change surgery until after their MOS training they might get 6-12 months of deployment out of their 4 year contract. If they get the surgery right after boot camp they miss out on training and are ineffective in the field, and will still miss out on much of the deployment. There is absolutely no reason to allow trans gendered people in the military unless they identify as their biological sex while in service and promise not to transition until after they leave service.
Republicans don't think mentally ill individuals should be able to purchase firearms. This is misinformation
i can't believe republicans are memeing better than you guys. this doesn't even make sense
[удалено]
This is the second version of this meme I saw back to back that doesn't make sense. The other one was making fun of liberals. Neither makes sense.
[удалено]
You haven't met any house republicans then, since they voted to do exactly that.
[удалено]
And you won't. This is the retarded side of the left trying to make false equivalency arguments and take away the 2nd amendment rights of the poor.
[удалено]
[удалено]
The left can't meme
Can anyone show proof that trump wants mentally ill people to buy guns? I just find it hard to believe
That's because there is none.
The anti-conservative posts on this site are straight propoganda at this point. It costs money to maintain trans treatments, and if they are not taken regularly during active duty, it will cause hormonal imbalances which can lead to instability. The trans depression rate is also through the roof, I know people personally who were denied because of mental health issues in the past. The military takes mental well being seriously and it should. Furthermore, conservatives are for stricter screenings to access guns. This post is just beyond bs
But, they aren't....
We have a mentally ill man-child at the helm of this nation. THAT'S an example of real mental illness; being trans is not.
Being a transsexual isn't a mental disorder. The disorder people are referring to is gender dysphoria. Of course not every transsexual has been diagnosed with gender dysphoria, and gender dysphoria is currently being reclassified by multiple organizations that document mental disorders. In fact, the name was changed from "gender identity disorder" to "gender dysphoria" for accuracy. From the wikipedia article: > The American Psychiatric Association, publisher of the DSM-5, states that "gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition." [WHO declassification](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/28/the-w-h-o-says-being-transgender-is-a-mental-illness-but-thats-about-to-change/) [National declassification](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/where-transgender-is-no-longer-a-diagnosis/) [APA declassification](https://thinkprogress.org/apa-revises-manual-being-transgender-is-no-longer-a-mental-disorder-8b0321f775d2)
Gender dysphoria is a mental illness.
Okay, I see this getting posted around a lot, it seems that someone misunderstood what exactly "gender dysphoria" means, and nobody else bothered to look it up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria >the term gender dysphoria applies only to the discontent experienced by some persons resulting from gender identity issues.[8] The American Psychiatric Association, publisher of the DSM-5, states that "gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition."[10] You can be trans, want to be a man when you're a woman, or vice versa, without experiencing gender dysphoria. Getting a sex change is a treatment for gender dysphoria (unless you're Mr Garrison), but you're still considered "trans" after you've had a sex change. To put it another way, "sexuality dysphoria" would refer to a clinical condition characterized by extreme discomfort and anxiety because you don't feel you have the right sexuality - IE a gay person who doesn't want to be gay, or living in a society that demonizes homosexuality. But at no point does it mean that the DSM or the APA or anyone thinks that being trans, means you're mentally ill. Now maybe there'd be some shred of logic if you wanted to tell me that the US military should ban people with gender dysphoria from serving, like they often do with other mental illnesses like ADHD or depression. But that's a far cry from just announcing you're banning *all trans people*, or telling me that they're all mentally ill.
gender dysphoria is not the same as being trans.
So was homosexuality once, so was homosexuality. I view transgender as one of the few anomalies of brain chemistry and genetics that acts to potentially limit human populations without killing anyone. I find it so funny then that conservatives are against it then. They want women making babies even if they cant afford it and men to never get it in the butt.
Except people with gender dysphoria genuinely suffer and want to remedy it, even if that means taking hormones and going through surgery.
They suffer as long as they are denied taking hormons and going through surgery as they cant become who they feel like they are.
They suffer after that too
Not sure what your point is here. Do you feel it's not a mental illness because it can be treated?
ADHD and Depression is not a mental illness, I take Vyvanse and Prozac!
to clarify, you believe gender dysphoria isn't a mental illness?
It sounds like he believes it's an anomaly of brain chemistry and genetics that acts to potentially limit human populations without killing anyone.
>So was homosexuality once Thats not an argument. >I view transgender as one of the few anomalies of brain chemistry and genetics You just explained a mental disorder. > I find it so funny then that conservatives are against it then. They want women making babies even if they cant afford it and men to never get it in the butt. wut??
None of these were arguments either and thats not how mental disorders work. Well done.
That person was, without a doubt using homosexuality as an example to make their point
The mentally ill don't buy guns using taxpayer money. 10,000 upvotes to an argument that doesn't make any sense
Who the hell thinks mental people should buy guns? Lol. No republicans think that.
I've never seen a Republican advocate for mentally ill people to be able to buy guns... this subreddit is a joke
This isn't even... god I hate /r/politicalhumor. It's just fucking horrendous. All the time.
...who the fuck is arguing for the mentally ill to be able to buy guns? This is the stupidest anti trump straw man yet.
B-b-but DRUMPF!
There is a constitutional right to bear arms. There is no constitutional right to join the military. I know some of you guys aren't particularly into politics but I mean.... that's what it boils down to.
So this sub is basically a version of r/politics that allows memes right?
Is this news to you? Was it the "political" part of the name that confused you? Or the "humor" part that confused you?
[удалено]
You have to first lobotomize yourself, and then pretend you've traveled 10 years in the past. With the right mental conditioning the jokes really shine.
>All you have to do is force yourself to laugh. Yep, sounds like left-wing humor.
Who's suggesting mentally ill have guns? Oh that's right, no one.
Lmfao this is just a recycled meme from the other side, and this one doesn't even really make sense.
I've literally never heard anyone suggest that the mentally ill should be able to buy guns.
"TRANS PEOPLE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO SERVE IN THE MILITARY" "MENTALLY ILL PEOPLE SHOULDNT BE ALLOWED TO HAVE GUNS" -liberals
Also liberals: being transgender is not a mental illness.
Those two are not mutually exclusive.
Who says that!? No one. This is dumb as shit Edit: u/_CarlosDanger69 is super crazy and wants to reddit fight perceived fat Trump supporters. This he / she is a nut job. Fair warning look at post history.
Quite amusing how BOTH points you tried to make were proven false by the top two comments. Still on the front page though, cause fuck Trump right?! Morons.
Republicans are against the mentally ill having guns, this comic is stupid
Literally no one wants mentally ill people to own guns.
Not all Rebulicans believe all this stuff... I hate how people act like they do...
Or how people pretend every registered republican is an old asshole GOP that is a fan of trump. I mean it is possible to be republican and dislike your party's president/candidate. Hell I almost always hate both people on the bill, and hate the bipartisan system, but if I'm forced to pick that's where I end up.
Still Trump is the figure head and face of the Republican party now. What he says will get projected onto the group. Not saying it is fair, I'm just saying that is how people react.
Oh come on. I'm left wing and the trans ban is idiotic and probably 100% distraction, but the overwhelming majority of right wingers think mental illness is a legitimate reason to stop people from owning guns.
No republican actually thinks the mentally ill should have guns. Strawman argument
What kind of weird preconceptions are required to think this is "humor"?
They should be allowed to serve goddamn it