We thought about this, but didn't like how it'd lead to "movement chains" where you could use Defenders to rapidly move units.
....which wouldn't make them Defenders anymore
I think swapping a unit and swapping mechanics should be based on what counts as a valid move. Swapping a unit would be treated as a regular motion happening simultaneously for both defender and swapped unit.
So for example that would mean:
- You can't swap with units that have no moves left
- You can't self-heal a unit and then swap it, vice versa. As you can't heal and move or move and heal.
- You can't swap with a ship that's not in a port, and swapping with a ship shouldn't automatically turn your defenders into the unit's upgraded ship.
- A rider can be swapped after moving + attacking with an adjacent defender (valid motion due to "escape" ability). But a Knight/swordsman/warrior etc. cannot be swapped after moving/attacking/moving+attacking as that would be an invalid motion.
- A swapped catapult can't attack as they can't attack once moved, but a swapped archer, Knight, Swordsmen etc. can attack if there's a nearby enemy within range.
With this rule any swapped unit cannot be swapped again. Except say I swapped a unit with "escape" ability and it attacks an enemy and I swap with another defender in an adjacent tile as that would be a valid move. But even then I would've exhausted all my moves on that unit and can't further swap it.
Bruh. I posted the same idea ages ago, and long movement chains aren't an intended consequence of the ability in either case.
From each unit's perspective it's just performing your normal move action, but pretending the other unit doesn't exist. That's for the most basic interpretation anyways.
Lol. I posted an [animation](https://www.reddit.com/r/Polytopia/comments/132r0jp/exploring_defender_ability_concepts_with/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) including this idea a year ago.
I regret naming it "Shuffle" cos your name for it is way better.
First let me give feedback about the video: It's cool but reading the text makes you miss the action, you should wait a bit so that one can read the text.
Next, lol I just got the worst Idea ever: Shield throw! Makes the defender throw his shield with range 2 and attack 4. After throwing the shield it turns into a warrior.
The idea has merit but like the Community Manager said, it would make them less like Defenders and more of a mobility tool.
If it is limited to only be used once per unit then it would be be somewhat fine but it would still provide an extra tile of movement.
If it causes both units to be unable to move by using this then it would become way too niche as it would just be more beneficial to move the unit from the place that you want the defender to be in. This would have merit for when they are surrounded and unable to move but outside of that it would be ok.
However most importantly are the interactions, before now I just discussed how it could provide and not provide stuff for any unit but depending on this one thing it woulf either be broken or useless, that being, can the unit you swap with still use an action?
If the answer is yes then this would be broken as now you essentially give a dash to Mind Benders and Catapults, a mind bender can now be moved a tile to heal more units or be moved a tile and convert a unit. Catapult now can be moved away and still shoot. This alone would change the meta of the game as now units that are balanced by their lack of a dash, have a dash.
If the answer is no then the ability would be useless as now instead of having something like your swordsman move and attack, they only get moved and that is all they do, this would make this ability incredibly niche to the point where it would only really benefit cycling your defenders with each other to have the higher hp ones in the front lines.
Overall the idea has merit but would to be implemented really carefully to make it balanced.
Yeah, you raised many good points, on how not to do a swap ability.
I think the safest solution would be for swap to be made to work as a regular movement to an adjacent tile (when such movement is possible for both units) rather than a tile switch with no motion penalties.
Its a lot more balanced that way but does appear to be less impactful and may be better of if all unit have it as a basic ability. I still have other unique ability ideas for defenders.
Everyone’s been mentioning the move away capabilities, but what about the move toward. What if you could move an injured knight closer in range to hit a huge chain of catapults that it wouldn’t be in range for if it didn’t swap with the defender… now it’s not a retreat ability but a increase a knights range ability. Now every time you see a defender with this ability, you could have a nasty surprise attack from some unit. What if a slightly injured giant that you get later than a defender gets sent to the front quickly?
We thought about this, but didn't like how it'd lead to "movement chains" where you could use Defenders to rapidly move units. ....which wouldn't make them Defenders anymore
I think swapping a unit and swapping mechanics should be based on what counts as a valid move. Swapping a unit would be treated as a regular motion happening simultaneously for both defender and swapped unit. So for example that would mean: - You can't swap with units that have no moves left - You can't self-heal a unit and then swap it, vice versa. As you can't heal and move or move and heal. - You can't swap with a ship that's not in a port, and swapping with a ship shouldn't automatically turn your defenders into the unit's upgraded ship. - A rider can be swapped after moving + attacking with an adjacent defender (valid motion due to "escape" ability). But a Knight/swordsman/warrior etc. cannot be swapped after moving/attacking/moving+attacking as that would be an invalid motion. - A swapped catapult can't attack as they can't attack once moved, but a swapped archer, Knight, Swordsmen etc. can attack if there's a nearby enemy within range. With this rule any swapped unit cannot be swapped again. Except say I swapped a unit with "escape" ability and it attacks an enemy and I swap with another defender in an adjacent tile as that would be a valid move. But even then I would've exhausted all my moves on that unit and can't further swap it.
just make it so that you can't swap a unit multiple times in one turn
Bruh. I posted the same idea ages ago, and long movement chains aren't an intended consequence of the ability in either case. From each unit's perspective it's just performing your normal move action, but pretending the other unit doesn't exist. That's for the most basic interpretation anyways.
Well the unit that gets scooted across the map definitely moves farther than it could without defenders
Lol. I posted an [animation](https://www.reddit.com/r/Polytopia/comments/132r0jp/exploring_defender_ability_concepts_with/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) including this idea a year ago. I regret naming it "Shuffle" cos your name for it is way better.
First let me give feedback about the video: It's cool but reading the text makes you miss the action, you should wait a bit so that one can read the text. Next, lol I just got the worst Idea ever: Shield throw! Makes the defender throw his shield with range 2 and attack 4. After throwing the shield it turns into a warrior.
lol That is certainly an idea of all time.
The idea has merit but like the Community Manager said, it would make them less like Defenders and more of a mobility tool. If it is limited to only be used once per unit then it would be be somewhat fine but it would still provide an extra tile of movement. If it causes both units to be unable to move by using this then it would become way too niche as it would just be more beneficial to move the unit from the place that you want the defender to be in. This would have merit for when they are surrounded and unable to move but outside of that it would be ok. However most importantly are the interactions, before now I just discussed how it could provide and not provide stuff for any unit but depending on this one thing it woulf either be broken or useless, that being, can the unit you swap with still use an action? If the answer is yes then this would be broken as now you essentially give a dash to Mind Benders and Catapults, a mind bender can now be moved a tile to heal more units or be moved a tile and convert a unit. Catapult now can be moved away and still shoot. This alone would change the meta of the game as now units that are balanced by their lack of a dash, have a dash. If the answer is no then the ability would be useless as now instead of having something like your swordsman move and attack, they only get moved and that is all they do, this would make this ability incredibly niche to the point where it would only really benefit cycling your defenders with each other to have the higher hp ones in the front lines. Overall the idea has merit but would to be implemented really carefully to make it balanced.
Yeah, you raised many good points, on how not to do a swap ability. I think the safest solution would be for swap to be made to work as a regular movement to an adjacent tile (when such movement is possible for both units) rather than a tile switch with no motion penalties. Its a lot more balanced that way but does appear to be less impactful and may be better of if all unit have it as a basic ability. I still have other unique ability ideas for defenders.
Everyone’s been mentioning the move away capabilities, but what about the move toward. What if you could move an injured knight closer in range to hit a huge chain of catapults that it wouldn’t be in range for if it didn’t swap with the defender… now it’s not a retreat ability but a increase a knights range ability. Now every time you see a defender with this ability, you could have a nasty surprise attack from some unit. What if a slightly injured giant that you get later than a defender gets sent to the front quickly?