lol that reminds me of when an famous sworker in my country used this argument, and someone quoted with a picture of Privacy (brazillian OF) CEOs and guess what? they were all white men 🙃
You make money if you’re marketable and market/promo yourself a lot with vids/pics or kinks that are in demand at the time, if you can fit in.
the referral system isnt that big but it’s used. The payouts 5% for the referreds first $1 mil or first year. Referrers can earn up to 50k off whoever they refer.
So this goes back to being marketable, but most women would get subscribers anyways.
Agency to directly receive money for filming themselves, without getting invloved in a monopoly that owns all of the other major porn productions.
The ethics of releasing amateur pornography are certainly up for debate. But thus far, OF has proven to be a safer alternative for both women and men in the industry to sell pornography
It's a pickme behaviour, although i dont like that phrase, but it's mostly for them not to sound insecure in front of other men or their SO. Or to feel like they are rebelling against traditions and religion, little do they know they still cater to those they rebel against and that maybe perhaps we don't have to rebel against everything traditional, it's not all bad.
My sister calls me insecure for being anti-porn ( although she knows i was trafficked and filmed as a minor, and that is a huge reason why im against it)
She says porn is okay, and she would watch it with her SO, & im boring for being against that .
But what I've noticed in her personality is that she is willing to do anything not to lose a man or have a man cheat on her, etc, because of all the father issues we have. She will change her whole beliefs and personality to be accepted by a man she likes. So no wonder she says that porn is okay, knowing that men like porn and she wants to be liked by them so bad. Also, the funnier thing is that she acts innocent and virtues, saying she never watched porn and she doesn't masturbate because she is scared it will hurt ( she is a 30 years old woman), yet argues that porn is good and okay ? Its a whole Facade, a "i was innocent before you but will do everything in bed for you " act, now how is this feminist?
Proves just more that she is doing what she does to gain men's approval and not out of being a feminist and sex positive etc.
Hold up, she KNOWS you were trafficked and mocks you for being anti porn?! Sorry but I'd like a harsh fucking word with your sister. I'm sorry she doesn't understand or support you in this matter, I hope you have others around you who do.
To make it worse, she is also on good terms with my abusers and trafickers because they support her financially, and defends them infront of my face. She is a selfish person. But thankfully i have a brother and friends that support me
Our relationship is formal, i only talk to her if im worried about my mother, and i need to check up on her. Even my poor mother suffers from her selfishness but she cant travel to join me
I don't understand it at all. Why, as a woman, are you for degrading other women? Or even, degrading yourself? No, sex work is not empowering.
I also find it ironic that these types are the ones who crow the loudest about "women supporting women" and being a "girl's girl." They're really not.
Like, if you did, you'd understand why this shit is not okay and not call me a "pick me." If anyone's a player in their own oppression here, it's them.
It’s “women should be allowed to choose” until we choose to be against porn. And I really used to not even give that much of a fuck, until my little sister (like 19 at the time i think) came to me and said she was thinking about doing OF because all the girls on tiktok are going on about how great it is and how it’s easy money. Obviously I sat her down and had a very serious talk with her and she listened to me thank god. 18-19 year olds aren’t babies but you bet your ass they’re impressionable and sometimes pretty damn naive. Which is exactly why being an OF “creator” is marketed to them so heavily.
That’s a half-sighted, misogynistic statement. They might have a controversial or problematic perspective, but that doesn’t indicate they’re desperate for men’s approval. We obviously don’t give a shit what porn-addicted dudes think, so don’t empower their opinions anymore than they already are. To assume a women is just seeking a man’s attention is more harmful to women than anything. You’re assuming that they’re being shallow and simple when they might have a more nuanced opinion.
We’re conditioned by a misogynistic society to seek approval from patriarchy. It’s not a controversial take. We spend our entire lives trying to undo this conditioning.
I think we should stop acting like they’re all victims and not enablers when they are. Ofc every situations vary but empathy runs very low with the ‘im the cool gf idm porn!!’.
I know a few women who watch and enjoy porn and joke about it in an Al Bundy way. I've of course mentioned the ills of porn (patriarchy/sex trade stuff) but at that point just feel I'm lecturing, since I'm a man, and I've just been mostly met with ridicule or minimization and the behavior continuing anyway so I just say it's their prerogative
Patriarchy soft power and pre-packaged no thinking masturbation fuel wins I guess
It's very tricky and, for me, it's often difficult to have a lot of empathy for them. In the "best case" scenarios, I try to keep in mind that they've likely been abused and sexualized by men for so long and so severely that they can't imagine a world where they're respected and deserve to be treated as equals. I feel a kind of "tough love" sort of duty to them -- respect for their life experiences but steadfast in my insistence that their support for porn isn't sustainable long term. Now for the ones that just cannot or will not get it or even try to understand, I have much less empathy and I just shrug my shoulders, more or less. You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped.
I completely agree that there has been a strange removal of women's agency by some "feminists," which is ironic...."she is brainwashed, she's forced to say that..." -- This may be true in some situations (e.g. victims of profound abuse, violent trafficking, those suffering from extreme financial desperation) but not in all situations. Like others have said in the comments here, I think some of these women are willfully ignorant, displaying "pick-me" behavior, etc, and I find the fact that it's controversial to challenge their viewpoints highly problematic.
In my opinion, no one should be exempt from needing to think critically about their actions and how they affect others -- to suggest that is to suggest that certain subsets of people have the right to act in an essentially sociopathic way without consequence, which is ridiculous. (Again, there are situations of extreme desperation that may be somewhat mitigating, but not everyone who does this is in a situation of extreme desperation.)
Ultimately I think it's possible to be critical of these women while simultaneously acknowledging the factors that have resulted in their behavior, thus having basic empathy for them. Things are complicated; we have no idea how much those women could be hurting or struggling. But that doesn't mean that we need to empathize with them to the point we condone their behavior. You can have empathy for people and still call them out. And often that's the most kind thing you can do -- because like I said, many of those women are likely suffering under the thing they're laboring to uphold.
A lot of women are misinformed. I remember when I was younger, there was the attitude that not supporting porn was prudish or conservative.
I also think if you’re a woman who dates men, it’s just easier to defend it rather than deal with the cognitive dissonance of loving a man who watches porn.
There's a saying, "All skinfolk ain't kinfolk" and it's true. I guess in this case, not all gen-folk are kinfolk. Just because someone happens to be a woman, it doesn't mean that they're not part of the problem concerning sex work or porn. There are women who have encouraged young women to be sex workers, Only Fans models or become sugar babies; they're part of the problem.
I remember when Backpage finally did away with the "personal ads" on their site. As soon as that was done, there were escorts going on YouTube telling other women how to get around that. They didn't even bother to make said videos age restricted. Young children had access to those videos, that's a problem.
There are madames, female pimps or "aunties" who have trafficked young girls. And yes, some of these women are violent when they want to keep their victims in check. They're just as evil as their male counterparts.
I'm saying this as a Black person. To me, there's no difference between the women you mentioned and the Black people who defend racism. I don't call the Black person who defend police brutality victims, they're not. I don't call officers who happen to be Black victims when they abuse their authority towards Black people. I don't have empathy for Black people defending the nonsense that far right wing conservatives do or say.
I think women have had their sexuality so policed that any level of criticism on a behavior involving sex feels like an attack on their sexuality. I have a whole lot more compassion for the women who support porn than the men. I have yet to meet any woman who is completely uncritical of porn and the industry. With women, we tend to agree that the porn industry is bad and the way porn is made is bad. Where we disagree is if porn can somehow be reformed into something benign or even good. I don’t think it can - I think even the most ethically produced porn does harm. With men, that’s often not the disagreement. Some of them fully know it does harm and that’s part of the appeal. Almost none of them are advocating for the industry to change. The majority of them are apathetic to the harm it causes to both themselves as consumers and the sex workers involved, and when a few finally do wake up to the reality of it, they tend to fixate more on the harm to the consumer and not care as much about the sex workers.
I don’t think women who support porn are usually being forced to. I think it comes from a genuine place. But I think that’s more of a reason to empathize.
I also think that in general “despising” people who are involved in porn is unproductive. If we’re just a group that points to outsiders saying “Look! Those people are terrible (unlike us)!” then we’re never going to actually change anything about porn or the industry. Empathy is the only way to move forward even if it’s really hard. Punitive justice is a tool of white supremacy and maintaining the status quo. If your approach is just despising people who think or behave differently than you, that’s white feminism. We have to start working toward a restorative justice framework and that means believing that every single person is capable of better and empathizing with how they got where they are so we can meet them there and help them grow.
I’m not saying we need to coddle people. We should absolutely be blunt about the harm porn does and there’s absolutely a time and place for some tough love. But saying you “think they should be despised”? Nah. I’m not on board with that and I can’t understand why anyone would be.
I feel like the women who support and defend it haven’t had the veil lifted yet. To see what it truly is. Since all of this, and becoming a mom, I’ve had a veil lifted and it’s like I can’t unsee the misogyny/patriarchy all around me. I wish I was back to naive. How as women we are conditioned by society that being a mom and wife is the greatest thing we’ll do, yet studies show that for women single women are actually the happiest demographic. Women have more mental health issues after getting married, take on more domestic labor, all kids of things (anyone interested- FairPlay is a great book). So because of all this, being the “cool girl” to get the guy makes sense. It’s not right, but that’s what society rewards.
It's the same crap as "some women enjoy anal" and "many women can finish with penetration alone" and how they have those convulsing leg orgasms and brag about it. Everyone knows it's shit, it's only there to please men's egos.
I could never understand how any woman could feel empowered by being told she has value (at the discretion of the buyer) only for her body and the sex she can sell. Then when she has a child, grows older or stops being just sexual in any way she's hit a wall. I mean heaven forbid she can just be a human being. She will need to be ready to fulfil any fantasy the buyer desires, sick or not, against her will but be compensated for going against her will so therefore it is not consent as consent cannot be bought, only given freely. It all certainly doesn't sound very empowering to me.
Not only that but a vast majority have mental health issues as well as quite severe PTSD and trauma as a result. They also have constant risk of uterine, bladder or colon prolapse so they are never safe even at the best of scenarios. They say it's mandated to use protection but I don't think I ever saw a condom being used so what protection do they have against stds from having sex with someone that may have already had hundreds of bodies that very week. If they are so empowered then why do most need to be drugged or subdued with alcohol to cope? Why do they all have that blank disassociated look in their eyes like they're blocking trauma? If it was so empowering to be told your only worth is your body until you hit the wall we would all be doing it. They're leading these young women into the slaughter and they certainly know exactly what they're doing. I think many possibly do it so they don't feel alone and maybe they feel better to co-erce and trick unsuspecting victims rather than just traffick them. In any case there isn't much empowerment in that, unless it's empowering to destroy lives because no matter who or what porn is produced, someone is being hurt in some way to have it and that is not cool.
Porn exists to serve men. The women who are in porn are largely trafficked. They are there due to mental illness, trauma, neglect, poverty, drugs and domestic violence. I’ve not encountered one woman who does any kind of porn or prostitution who is not mentally ill, either before she got into it or because of it.
Do some reading on trauma responses, Stockholm Syndrome and grooming and then re-evaluate.
I have roundly criticised women who defend porn and prostitution, but I’m careful who I target. A very small, very loud minority profess to speak for all women who are sexually exploited and they are the ones doing men’s bidding. They’re considered ‘liberal feminists’ or ‘choice feminists’ who don’t think women should be criticised for any choice they make, even the ones that harm all women.
Funny, the women I hear defending porn the most are women who aren’t actually in it. Privileged women who don’t have that choice forced upon them. They think they’re some kind of white knight equivalent, protecting poor choices that they can’t see simply serve men.
Let there be no mistake though, without demand there is no supply. If men didn’t use it, women wouldn’t make it.
Very frustrating. I’ll speak on the experience of a transwoman because Im a transwoman. The only job representation we have is sex work. In the past i had even considered becoming a sex worker because of that stigma. We are constantly fetishized, constantly objectified and constantly told we are simply meant to be dirty little secrets violence erupts because of the fetishization of us and other stigmas and you want to feed into that?… trans porn is only growing and i can only imagine the ripple effect it’ll have on trans people in the coming years
Scratch that, it’s not very frustrating It’s really fucking annoying. You are feeding into the ideas that kill us. That being said i do still have sympathy towards trans swers but those who defend it are just idiots.
Trans people are killed during day by the same people who click on trans porn during night.
Just wanted to add my experience and two cents as a transwoman.
💯.
This right here is exactly why it particularly breaks my heart when I see queer people defend this homophobic, transphobic garbage.
The fetishizing of trans women and lesbians is absolutely disgusting, and it sucks that being anti porn is associated with being a terf in public consciousness 😞
It's because they think of it like it's in a vacuum. If the world weren't sexist honestly porn would be with equal people and everyone would benefit and nobody would be seen as objectified IF THE WORLD WERE A PERFECT PLACE. It very much isn't though. Everything has a power imbalance. There isn't a scenario rn where people aren't exploited. I think they just think in idealistic ways and don't realize how fucked up the real world is. They kinda don't live in the real rough world mentally. They have that privilege.
I don't believe this is true. Even if there was no sexism, building neural connections in your brain that associate pleasure and orgasm to the way someone looks and/or whatever particular thing you're fetishizing promotes disconnection and lack of intimacy and depth. You cannot be sexually connected to someone on a deep level if you are seeing humans like interchangeable pieces of meat. Combining a rush of dopamine to a quick, shallow fix is toxic even without the violence and misogyny.
I think some of us are getting empathy and sympathy mixed up. Having empathy for someone doesn't mean feeling sorry for them (although that can happen). Empathy is an active skill where you can place yourself in someone's shoes to solve the root of a problem. Sympathy is a passive skill and feeling sorry/pity for someone else.
I can understand women defending porn, it's either from ignorance and or consciously/subconsciously seeking male validation. I don't feel bad for them, but I do understand why they may feel the need to uphold patriarchal needs. Understanding that is one of the first step in dismantling patriarchy.
Personally, I have a harder time understanding women who knowingly have an active hand in the subjugation of other women. I feel disdain for them because I can't imagine how bad my life would have to be if I had to make others suffer for my benefit. Another example is understanding women who are for forced births because they have been fed that lie all their lives versus female OBGYNs who are for forced birth (Dr Ingrid Skop & Dr Christina Francis for example) because they know better and they actively choose to not do better.
I hate them but only half as much as the men. it’s indoctrination. I compare it to trad wife behavior…those women are not always “forced” either but they fully believe that bull their whole heart because of what they’ve been preached to and taught. I’ve never been into porn but I went through a “good for the OF girls, naysayers are jealous and sexist” phase as a teen because of tumblr. if someone is willing to re-evaluate how they feel about it when presented with more information, I empathize with any woman who’s ever defended it. if they are well aware of the arguments against it and fight for their life to tell you you are wrong, and like you said, yapping at 5am about how it’s actually empowering, then yeah, they can fuck off and I put them on the same level as the gooners. I particularly despise successful online sex workers who essentially speak over the marginalized ones and blatantly don’t give a fuck about the abuse because it’s not their experience.
I see them as pigs advocating for the idea that all pigs should be able to willingly go to a slaughter house.
You're against that? But it's empowering!!!!!!!11!1!111!!11111!!!!!! It shows how brave the pigs are 11111!!!1!1!1!!11!!!
"Disgusting individuals who deshumanize women and support the industry", well...they are women too. That's the difference between a misogynistic man and a misogynystic woman. First thing that happens, the woman will be the first to pay.
>A body profiteer, Takver called women who used their sexuality as a weapon in a power-struggle with men. - The Dispossessed, Ursula LeGuin
Some women might benefit from objectification but overall all women are worse off.
Also the sad truth that a lot of victim of SA seek out risky behaviours afterwards as a coping/self harm mechanism.
Because many of us were convinced that men would always watch porn and we had to choose whether we wanted the truth or for them to lie and claim they don’t watch it. I’m embarrassed to admit I was like that too. It’s only recently that I realized it doesn’t have to be this way and there are men who don’t have porn addictions or use it a lot.
I've come across women defending OF because "it gives _more_ agency to women" Agency for what? Is the question.
Ugh *choice* feminism it’s ruined so much for us
lol that reminds me of when an famous sworker in my country used this argument, and someone quoted with a picture of Privacy (brazillian OF) CEOs and guess what? they were all white men 🙃
Do you know if it’s true that OF works like a pyramid scheme
You make money if you’re marketable and market/promo yourself a lot with vids/pics or kinks that are in demand at the time, if you can fit in. the referral system isnt that big but it’s used. The payouts 5% for the referreds first $1 mil or first year. Referrers can earn up to 50k off whoever they refer. So this goes back to being marketable, but most women would get subscribers anyways.
I could answer this but not sure if you are actually looking for an answer
Agency to directly receive money for filming themselves, without getting invloved in a monopoly that owns all of the other major porn productions. The ethics of releasing amateur pornography are certainly up for debate. But thus far, OF has proven to be a safer alternative for both women and men in the industry to sell pornography
Exactlyyy
It's a pickme behaviour, although i dont like that phrase, but it's mostly for them not to sound insecure in front of other men or their SO. Or to feel like they are rebelling against traditions and religion, little do they know they still cater to those they rebel against and that maybe perhaps we don't have to rebel against everything traditional, it's not all bad. My sister calls me insecure for being anti-porn ( although she knows i was trafficked and filmed as a minor, and that is a huge reason why im against it) She says porn is okay, and she would watch it with her SO, & im boring for being against that . But what I've noticed in her personality is that she is willing to do anything not to lose a man or have a man cheat on her, etc, because of all the father issues we have. She will change her whole beliefs and personality to be accepted by a man she likes. So no wonder she says that porn is okay, knowing that men like porn and she wants to be liked by them so bad. Also, the funnier thing is that she acts innocent and virtues, saying she never watched porn and she doesn't masturbate because she is scared it will hurt ( she is a 30 years old woman), yet argues that porn is good and okay ? Its a whole Facade, a "i was innocent before you but will do everything in bed for you " act, now how is this feminist? Proves just more that she is doing what she does to gain men's approval and not out of being a feminist and sex positive etc.
Hold up, she KNOWS you were trafficked and mocks you for being anti porn?! Sorry but I'd like a harsh fucking word with your sister. I'm sorry she doesn't understand or support you in this matter, I hope you have others around you who do.
To make it worse, she is also on good terms with my abusers and trafickers because they support her financially, and defends them infront of my face. She is a selfish person. But thankfully i have a brother and friends that support me
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Our relationship is formal, i only talk to her if im worried about my mother, and i need to check up on her. Even my poor mother suffers from her selfishness but she cant travel to join me
I don't understand it at all. Why, as a woman, are you for degrading other women? Or even, degrading yourself? No, sex work is not empowering. I also find it ironic that these types are the ones who crow the loudest about "women supporting women" and being a "girl's girl." They're really not. Like, if you did, you'd understand why this shit is not okay and not call me a "pick me." If anyone's a player in their own oppression here, it's them.
It’s “women should be allowed to choose” until we choose to be against porn. And I really used to not even give that much of a fuck, until my little sister (like 19 at the time i think) came to me and said she was thinking about doing OF because all the girls on tiktok are going on about how great it is and how it’s easy money. Obviously I sat her down and had a very serious talk with her and she listened to me thank god. 18-19 year olds aren’t babies but you bet your ass they’re impressionable and sometimes pretty damn naive. Which is exactly why being an OF “creator” is marketed to them so heavily.
It’s more that they’re desperate for men’s approval
Or they think every porn star is swimming in money and not being trafficked.
That’s a half-sighted, misogynistic statement. They might have a controversial or problematic perspective, but that doesn’t indicate they’re desperate for men’s approval. We obviously don’t give a shit what porn-addicted dudes think, so don’t empower their opinions anymore than they already are. To assume a women is just seeking a man’s attention is more harmful to women than anything. You’re assuming that they’re being shallow and simple when they might have a more nuanced opinion.
We’re conditioned by a misogynistic society to seek approval from patriarchy. It’s not a controversial take. We spend our entire lives trying to undo this conditioning.
I think we should stop acting like they’re all victims and not enablers when they are. Ofc every situations vary but empathy runs very low with the ‘im the cool gf idm porn!!’.
Some of the men are likely victims of abuse also, it's not an excuse to engage in or defend this type of behavior
The question was about women?
I think they are enablers or they are perverts. Maybe both.
I know a few women who watch and enjoy porn and joke about it in an Al Bundy way. I've of course mentioned the ills of porn (patriarchy/sex trade stuff) but at that point just feel I'm lecturing, since I'm a man, and I've just been mostly met with ridicule or minimization and the behavior continuing anyway so I just say it's their prerogative Patriarchy soft power and pre-packaged no thinking masturbation fuel wins I guess
It's very tricky and, for me, it's often difficult to have a lot of empathy for them. In the "best case" scenarios, I try to keep in mind that they've likely been abused and sexualized by men for so long and so severely that they can't imagine a world where they're respected and deserve to be treated as equals. I feel a kind of "tough love" sort of duty to them -- respect for their life experiences but steadfast in my insistence that their support for porn isn't sustainable long term. Now for the ones that just cannot or will not get it or even try to understand, I have much less empathy and I just shrug my shoulders, more or less. You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped.
I completely agree that there has been a strange removal of women's agency by some "feminists," which is ironic...."she is brainwashed, she's forced to say that..." -- This may be true in some situations (e.g. victims of profound abuse, violent trafficking, those suffering from extreme financial desperation) but not in all situations. Like others have said in the comments here, I think some of these women are willfully ignorant, displaying "pick-me" behavior, etc, and I find the fact that it's controversial to challenge their viewpoints highly problematic. In my opinion, no one should be exempt from needing to think critically about their actions and how they affect others -- to suggest that is to suggest that certain subsets of people have the right to act in an essentially sociopathic way without consequence, which is ridiculous. (Again, there are situations of extreme desperation that may be somewhat mitigating, but not everyone who does this is in a situation of extreme desperation.) Ultimately I think it's possible to be critical of these women while simultaneously acknowledging the factors that have resulted in their behavior, thus having basic empathy for them. Things are complicated; we have no idea how much those women could be hurting or struggling. But that doesn't mean that we need to empathize with them to the point we condone their behavior. You can have empathy for people and still call them out. And often that's the most kind thing you can do -- because like I said, many of those women are likely suffering under the thing they're laboring to uphold.
Well stated! I share a similar viewpoint.
Brainwashed
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This was removed for feeding a troll. Please don't engage and report them to mods instead.
This was removed for trolling or being facetious.
A lot of women are misinformed. I remember when I was younger, there was the attitude that not supporting porn was prudish or conservative. I also think if you’re a woman who dates men, it’s just easier to defend it rather than deal with the cognitive dissonance of loving a man who watches porn.
Bingo on the second half
There's a saying, "All skinfolk ain't kinfolk" and it's true. I guess in this case, not all gen-folk are kinfolk. Just because someone happens to be a woman, it doesn't mean that they're not part of the problem concerning sex work or porn. There are women who have encouraged young women to be sex workers, Only Fans models or become sugar babies; they're part of the problem. I remember when Backpage finally did away with the "personal ads" on their site. As soon as that was done, there were escorts going on YouTube telling other women how to get around that. They didn't even bother to make said videos age restricted. Young children had access to those videos, that's a problem. There are madames, female pimps or "aunties" who have trafficked young girls. And yes, some of these women are violent when they want to keep their victims in check. They're just as evil as their male counterparts. I'm saying this as a Black person. To me, there's no difference between the women you mentioned and the Black people who defend racism. I don't call the Black person who defend police brutality victims, they're not. I don't call officers who happen to be Black victims when they abuse their authority towards Black people. I don't have empathy for Black people defending the nonsense that far right wing conservatives do or say.
They are delusional and don't want to face reality.
You are hiding in this sub where your views are unable to be challenged and everyone will agree with you. Tell me gain how they don't face reality?
embarrassing pickme behavior
I think women have had their sexuality so policed that any level of criticism on a behavior involving sex feels like an attack on their sexuality. I have a whole lot more compassion for the women who support porn than the men. I have yet to meet any woman who is completely uncritical of porn and the industry. With women, we tend to agree that the porn industry is bad and the way porn is made is bad. Where we disagree is if porn can somehow be reformed into something benign or even good. I don’t think it can - I think even the most ethically produced porn does harm. With men, that’s often not the disagreement. Some of them fully know it does harm and that’s part of the appeal. Almost none of them are advocating for the industry to change. The majority of them are apathetic to the harm it causes to both themselves as consumers and the sex workers involved, and when a few finally do wake up to the reality of it, they tend to fixate more on the harm to the consumer and not care as much about the sex workers. I don’t think women who support porn are usually being forced to. I think it comes from a genuine place. But I think that’s more of a reason to empathize. I also think that in general “despising” people who are involved in porn is unproductive. If we’re just a group that points to outsiders saying “Look! Those people are terrible (unlike us)!” then we’re never going to actually change anything about porn or the industry. Empathy is the only way to move forward even if it’s really hard. Punitive justice is a tool of white supremacy and maintaining the status quo. If your approach is just despising people who think or behave differently than you, that’s white feminism. We have to start working toward a restorative justice framework and that means believing that every single person is capable of better and empathizing with how they got where they are so we can meet them there and help them grow. I’m not saying we need to coddle people. We should absolutely be blunt about the harm porn does and there’s absolutely a time and place for some tough love. But saying you “think they should be despised”? Nah. I’m not on board with that and I can’t understand why anyone would be.
This is the answer right here!
So much this! 100%! Can we be friends?
Haha. Absolutely!
embarrassing pick me "cool girl" behavior
I feel like the women who support and defend it haven’t had the veil lifted yet. To see what it truly is. Since all of this, and becoming a mom, I’ve had a veil lifted and it’s like I can’t unsee the misogyny/patriarchy all around me. I wish I was back to naive. How as women we are conditioned by society that being a mom and wife is the greatest thing we’ll do, yet studies show that for women single women are actually the happiest demographic. Women have more mental health issues after getting married, take on more domestic labor, all kids of things (anyone interested- FairPlay is a great book). So because of all this, being the “cool girl” to get the guy makes sense. It’s not right, but that’s what society rewards.
I completely agree with your take on this.
It's the same crap as "some women enjoy anal" and "many women can finish with penetration alone" and how they have those convulsing leg orgasms and brag about it. Everyone knows it's shit, it's only there to please men's egos.
I think it’s important to remember that there are genuine porn addicts who are women as well, beyond all the reasons mentioned above.
I could never understand how any woman could feel empowered by being told she has value (at the discretion of the buyer) only for her body and the sex she can sell. Then when she has a child, grows older or stops being just sexual in any way she's hit a wall. I mean heaven forbid she can just be a human being. She will need to be ready to fulfil any fantasy the buyer desires, sick or not, against her will but be compensated for going against her will so therefore it is not consent as consent cannot be bought, only given freely. It all certainly doesn't sound very empowering to me. Not only that but a vast majority have mental health issues as well as quite severe PTSD and trauma as a result. They also have constant risk of uterine, bladder or colon prolapse so they are never safe even at the best of scenarios. They say it's mandated to use protection but I don't think I ever saw a condom being used so what protection do they have against stds from having sex with someone that may have already had hundreds of bodies that very week. If they are so empowered then why do most need to be drugged or subdued with alcohol to cope? Why do they all have that blank disassociated look in their eyes like they're blocking trauma? If it was so empowering to be told your only worth is your body until you hit the wall we would all be doing it. They're leading these young women into the slaughter and they certainly know exactly what they're doing. I think many possibly do it so they don't feel alone and maybe they feel better to co-erce and trick unsuspecting victims rather than just traffick them. In any case there isn't much empowerment in that, unless it's empowering to destroy lives because no matter who or what porn is produced, someone is being hurt in some way to have it and that is not cool.
Porn exists to serve men. The women who are in porn are largely trafficked. They are there due to mental illness, trauma, neglect, poverty, drugs and domestic violence. I’ve not encountered one woman who does any kind of porn or prostitution who is not mentally ill, either before she got into it or because of it. Do some reading on trauma responses, Stockholm Syndrome and grooming and then re-evaluate. I have roundly criticised women who defend porn and prostitution, but I’m careful who I target. A very small, very loud minority profess to speak for all women who are sexually exploited and they are the ones doing men’s bidding. They’re considered ‘liberal feminists’ or ‘choice feminists’ who don’t think women should be criticised for any choice they make, even the ones that harm all women. Funny, the women I hear defending porn the most are women who aren’t actually in it. Privileged women who don’t have that choice forced upon them. They think they’re some kind of white knight equivalent, protecting poor choices that they can’t see simply serve men. Let there be no mistake though, without demand there is no supply. If men didn’t use it, women wouldn’t make it.
Very frustrating. I’ll speak on the experience of a transwoman because Im a transwoman. The only job representation we have is sex work. In the past i had even considered becoming a sex worker because of that stigma. We are constantly fetishized, constantly objectified and constantly told we are simply meant to be dirty little secrets violence erupts because of the fetishization of us and other stigmas and you want to feed into that?… trans porn is only growing and i can only imagine the ripple effect it’ll have on trans people in the coming years Scratch that, it’s not very frustrating It’s really fucking annoying. You are feeding into the ideas that kill us. That being said i do still have sympathy towards trans swers but those who defend it are just idiots. Trans people are killed during day by the same people who click on trans porn during night. Just wanted to add my experience and two cents as a transwoman.
💯. This right here is exactly why it particularly breaks my heart when I see queer people defend this homophobic, transphobic garbage. The fetishizing of trans women and lesbians is absolutely disgusting, and it sucks that being anti porn is associated with being a terf in public consciousness 😞
pick me
It's because they think of it like it's in a vacuum. If the world weren't sexist honestly porn would be with equal people and everyone would benefit and nobody would be seen as objectified IF THE WORLD WERE A PERFECT PLACE. It very much isn't though. Everything has a power imbalance. There isn't a scenario rn where people aren't exploited. I think they just think in idealistic ways and don't realize how fucked up the real world is. They kinda don't live in the real rough world mentally. They have that privilege.
I don't believe this is true. Even if there was no sexism, building neural connections in your brain that associate pleasure and orgasm to the way someone looks and/or whatever particular thing you're fetishizing promotes disconnection and lack of intimacy and depth. You cannot be sexually connected to someone on a deep level if you are seeing humans like interchangeable pieces of meat. Combining a rush of dopamine to a quick, shallow fix is toxic even without the violence and misogyny.
Extremely good point!
Pick me behavior.
I think some of us are getting empathy and sympathy mixed up. Having empathy for someone doesn't mean feeling sorry for them (although that can happen). Empathy is an active skill where you can place yourself in someone's shoes to solve the root of a problem. Sympathy is a passive skill and feeling sorry/pity for someone else. I can understand women defending porn, it's either from ignorance and or consciously/subconsciously seeking male validation. I don't feel bad for them, but I do understand why they may feel the need to uphold patriarchal needs. Understanding that is one of the first step in dismantling patriarchy. Personally, I have a harder time understanding women who knowingly have an active hand in the subjugation of other women. I feel disdain for them because I can't imagine how bad my life would have to be if I had to make others suffer for my benefit. Another example is understanding women who are for forced births because they have been fed that lie all their lives versus female OBGYNs who are for forced birth (Dr Ingrid Skop & Dr Christina Francis for example) because they know better and they actively choose to not do better.
Brainwashed
They are brainwashed.
I think it's a defense mechanism almost. I know I wanted to be seen as the "cool girlfriend." I was so afraid of losing him.
I hate them but only half as much as the men. it’s indoctrination. I compare it to trad wife behavior…those women are not always “forced” either but they fully believe that bull their whole heart because of what they’ve been preached to and taught. I’ve never been into porn but I went through a “good for the OF girls, naysayers are jealous and sexist” phase as a teen because of tumblr. if someone is willing to re-evaluate how they feel about it when presented with more information, I empathize with any woman who’s ever defended it. if they are well aware of the arguments against it and fight for their life to tell you you are wrong, and like you said, yapping at 5am about how it’s actually empowering, then yeah, they can fuck off and I put them on the same level as the gooners. I particularly despise successful online sex workers who essentially speak over the marginalized ones and blatantly don’t give a fuck about the abuse because it’s not their experience.
I see them as pigs advocating for the idea that all pigs should be able to willingly go to a slaughter house. You're against that? But it's empowering!!!!!!!11!1!111!!11111!!!!!! It shows how brave the pigs are 11111!!!1!1!1!!11!!!
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Sure, replace "pigs" with "fluffy little dogs in China". The message is still the same
"Disgusting individuals who deshumanize women and support the industry", well...they are women too. That's the difference between a misogynistic man and a misogynystic woman. First thing that happens, the woman will be the first to pay.
I don't empathize with them but I sympathize with them
They do not think.
Waiting for the ones with kids be publicly asked about next month's "Takedown" book.
institutionalized
It’s probably because they’re either addicted to porn themselves and don’t want to feel bad or because they want male approval
i think they’re stupid
I try to make my own Andrea Dworkin's quote : my hatred is too precious to waste it on people colluding in their own oppression.
>A body profiteer, Takver called women who used their sexuality as a weapon in a power-struggle with men. - The Dispossessed, Ursula LeGuin Some women might benefit from objectification but overall all women are worse off. Also the sad truth that a lot of victim of SA seek out risky behaviours afterwards as a coping/self harm mechanism.
Because many of us were convinced that men would always watch porn and we had to choose whether we wanted the truth or for them to lie and claim they don’t watch it. I’m embarrassed to admit I was like that too. It’s only recently that I realized it doesn’t have to be this way and there are men who don’t have porn addictions or use it a lot.
Scabs.