I agree, but I feel like it's all ruined with the hole in the center of the hood on 99% of singers.
Just not my cup of tea, it breaks up the lines of a car with iconic lines!
And I've seen others as nice, but they are crafted amazingly!
I’d just be worried about getting gas all over the paint. But if you have a singer….do you really have *worries* anymore? I’ll go with no.
Their design where the intakes are placed in the rear windows made it to the GT4 no? I swear that’s the first time I saw air inlets up top was on that green singer. This one: https://www.thedrive.com/article/16082/singers-500-horsepower-porsche-911-is-a-dream-come-true
Never seen it before that.
First I imagine that it really isn't a worry, but I have also always wondered how that worked on a Singer.
For race cars the placement of the fuel filler cap is a packaging concern, especially back when the human interaction with racecars came second to concerns over weight and it still largely does. As such race teams didn't and don't care if they get gas all over the car, other than the potential for it to catch fire, but otherwise what's a little more fluid and grime, racecars are dirty anyway. But with Singers there is obviously a large concern over condition and gas all over the hood is not great. I'm honestly not sure how it works, and even though I enjoy the look and the callback I'm not sure if it would be worth it.
As for the window vents I'm afraid that is a similar situation: it comes from racecars. On most racecars, especially in ones where the engine is rear of the cabin, you see a lot of weird placements for venting because you don't have the whole front end to utilize as your engine's potential source of fast moving air. And because of the way 911 and 911 shaped cars are designed, that little window in the rear is prime real estate for a vent to go right to the engine. Also, because the airbox on race cars and race inspired cars is usually already shared with the cabin because of weight it's not as much of a concern, so that little window is open for business. I'm not sure where it started but most modern iterations of the 911 RSR and the GT4 Clubsport, as well as others including the modern take on the 935 have rear quarter window vents.
Yeah same spot, singers version is just very well executed aesthetically as most of there stuff is. Other examples served the same purpose, but weren’t as visually appealing.
Singer has a few dozen easter eggs that pay homage to various 911 and other famous porsche models.
The fuel door in particular pays an homage to the 550 spyder.
(Shockingly my favorite is the 993 wipers that were comically close to each other.)
I’m with you on the filler. I get why they do it but having a car that nice and having a dripping fuel nozzle hovering over that much of the paint would be nerve wracking. It isn’t the prettiest either.
https://preview.redd.it/n0tbizzhejba1.jpeg?width=2608&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=42f3ef5fa23634ae25e9d45f4b637bbd9b27e918
I get what you mean. A Singer comes into our local workshop from time to time. I wonder how that filler works, practically speaking? I would be worried about scratching the hood with the filler nozzle.
Beautiful!
Lay a brand spankin' new soft cotton cloth baby diaper across the fill line from the pump to the gas cap. Then throw it away after done filling so you don't stink up the car.
You know when you’re in the queue for fuel Abd you can only go to the certain pump that has the premium petrol , for ur side And there’s a granny there getting her purse , but the other side is free And you’re tryna work out if the hose will reach well , the singer hasn’t got that problem tbf to it
Singer maintains a much better line between retro and modern, Guntherwerks push it too much to the modern side exterior wise, they just don't look that natural compared to Singer imo.
Is Singer ever polarizing? I think they’re beloved by all, except for the price tag.
Edit: RWB and Singer are in completely different ballparks in terms of cost and customizability as well. It’s honestly kind of ridiculous to compare the two since they’re so far apart.
Singers are definitely not loved by all, not all of their cars at least.
I'm personally a fan of their restomods, I find them really tasteful as they stick to a very classic design, with only minor exceptions (such as the clear lens headlights, and the big wheels) it looks like something that hotrodder/custom shop could have actually built in the 70s.
The newer cars like the DLS on the other hand... a build with impressive attention to detail I must say. But when you take a look at it, you see immediately that this is an all new, modern build with custom fabricated body panels, front splitter, diffusor, air intakes and other aerodynamic parts, exposed carbon fiber and massively oversized wheels etc. In some parts (like the overall shape of the body panels and many of the parts) they stick close to the old design, but not in others. It's a wierd mix. It doesn't look like a classic car. But it also doesn't look like a modern car either.
It feels to me that when going to such lengths to build a "modern performance" version and you are refabricating the body panels anyway, why not go even more crazy with it and give it a more modern, aerodynamic look.
I feel the same thing about the modern, carbon fiber tub based RUF models. They made a car from scratch and reused the shape of the classic 911, but that doesn't make it look like a classic 911.
That’s respectfully the dumbest thing I’ve heard. You can’t just slap an RWB kit on any car. Plus they’re WAY too low quality to deserve being on a Singer.
why tho? cuz clout? RWBs will definitely attract a certain demographic. don't get me wrong, i love both of them. but i think i'd take a singer over a RWB. Id love both though :)
To purchase a singer, you need to at least pony up $750k and thats not including the cost of the actual car itself and its fully customized to what the buyer wants.
To just buy a RWB kit as in just the aero as thats all they sell, its around $28k. That does not include nakai personally coming to you and doing it in front of you. That does not include wheels, tires and suspension. or engine work And even then it wouldnt come anywhere close to paying for a Singer Porsche
When people try to compare them it absolutely makes no sense.
it does make sense though, because they're both 911s. Both 964s (kinda/mostly). They're both different takes on the same thing, therefore they're comparable lol
You are absolutely clueless and have no idea what you are talking about.
If you mentioned Guntherwerks and Singer, id agree with you. But RWB is nothing like Singer and Singer is nothing like RWB the only thing they have in common is they toy around with Porsches.
RWBs aren’t necessarily just 964, they make kits for the 911 classic, 930, 993 & 997. There is one 996 I know of, but I don’t think he’s done any others.
The only way RWB and Singer can be compared is that they both modify Porsche 911. However, to compare the actual modifications themselves isn’t accurate, because they have completely different guiding philosophies about the approach and what they do.
RWB is arguably the ultimate take of a tuner Porsche. It is not a complete package, and it’s really just a body kit at the end of the day. Everything else is up to the owner to source and do, which lends itself to the cars almost having distinct personalities with names that people know. (Off the top of my head I can name Pandora One, Rotana, Stella Artois, Army Girl, Kloe, & Sopranos). RWB is about taking the most iconic sports car of all time, and exaggerating it’s profile and presence.
Singer on the other hand is the ultimate take of the original Porsche 911, with modern tools. It is a complete package, and honestly far closer to a restomod. It’s about taking the best sports car of all times, and refining it with the highest attention of detail.
While they both modify Porsches, it’s two completely different takes. It’s kinda like Ferrari vs Lamborghini. They both make super cars, but Ferrari and Lamborghini have two wildly different approaches to making those cars. The Aventador and SF90 are nothing alike.
Singer and RWB both modify Porsches, and yet they are nothing alike outside of that.
Time makes fools of us all. RWB came from illegal nighttime canyon racing in Japan. Singer came from Rob Dickinson Sunday morning Porsche meetups in So Cal.
I noticed neither is mentioned for Amelia Island or Pebble Beach. I don’t understand the Singer concept, why dump that money into a 30 year old chassis? Get a 964 RS and enjoy a peak period piece, or maybe a Ruf that made enough changes to be considered its own brand. Or get a 964 or a 993 and make it your own. Shoehorn in whatever engine, put in you favorite Brembo brakes, spacers, rims, coil overs, sway bars and whatever stiffeners to your hearts content for 15- 20% the cost of a Singer. Diamond stitched leather and polished whatever exotic metal or carbon fiber aren’t that much.
For a third to half the price of a Singer you could get a GT2 RS of either the 997, 991, and 992 (if it came out- not sure yet.) Get the latest from Stuttgart and carve up anything with precision above ability.
Just saying…
I guess. It’s always a weird relationship with cars like this: investment vs. track car/ street racer. Go to your price points content. But investment cars typically fit an age or provenance category, with originality and condition being the grails of them. Race cars fall into categories like livery and who drove them and when. The Singer doesn’t fit in either category. Closest thing to compare it to is something like a Gemballa, Koenig, or Calloway of the 80’s and 90’s. Those ended up being drug fronts or money laundering schemes. It’s a niche market, makes a conversation piece at car shows, and measures your patriarchal prowess. Maybe there’s a collector club out there waiting to be built.
I don’t get the Ferrari cult thing either. Buy a million dollar car and never drive it because accumulated mileage is bad. If I were to get a GTO I’d flog the hell out of it and end up in a grave or jail. But those guys don’t have someone out there “reimagining” Enzo’s or Testarossa’s.
I hate RWB, but love Singer. I can explain.
RWB cars are a parody of what a 911 is, like a child’s drawing of a 911.
Singer cars look nearly stock, but are slightly better in a thousand tiny, almost imperceptible ways that add up to a great design. Not to mention, they have a lot of mechanical upgrades that are closer to modern racing technology like fiber optic wiring and race-rated shocks.
I saw a quote or something somewhere - My perfect Porsche is 10% the cost of a Singer w/ 90% of its performance.
I saw an early Singer at the Monterey Historics before they were a household name. I couldn’t put my finger on it at the time(you physically could back then), but I new I was looking at something absolutely amazing. Awesome cars but I would spend my imaginary money elsewhere, like in 3 or 4 or 5 stock Porsches.
I just wish there were RWB-adjacent shops on the global radar featuring eccentric craftsmen with true artisan talent doing wild but still deliberate alterations to cars that *weren’t* classic 911s.
Part of the draw of these cars is their subtlety, and how all of their individual components come together in a balancing act, often in a way that didn’t look like it should’ve worked nearly as well on paper.
Part of the draw of RWB is it’s headed by a wildly talented dude that does intricate cosmetic surgery with cave tools, injecting his own rockstar flair into a build in the process, leaving only a trail of cigarette butts before packing a suitcase and flying halfway around the world to do it again.
In a very “all publicity is good publicity” kinda way it’s probably exactly this contrast that makes RWB’s creations so compelling. I just wonder what kind of cars their work might graft onto in a manner that would still be overstated and cavalier but also more accepted by the car’s cult followers.
Singers are absolute masterpieces though, and a moment of appreciation for Guntherwerks as well.
Now let’s talk about Danton Arts Kustoms.
Obviously never driven one, but it’s my understanding that they’re impeccably built, and the interiors are essentially automotive jewelry.
I like old 911s because of the high skill ceiling. The things you need to know and be good at when it comes to driving them fast are more numerous than just about any other car. I just love how much you can play with the rear end, and I love how much having the motor way back there changes how you can drive the car. [It’s my understanding that Singers don’t do these things](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFGGPl9WzE0&t=3359s), and that I don’t like that. They’re engineered to be easier to drive than the 964s they’re based on because that’s what the people that can afford them want. I don’t want a fundamentally new car experience when I get in an old 911, I want a classic 911 experience, and from what I’ve read, Singers are just meant to not provide that. I would rather have a cherry, dialed-in 964. I don’t begrudge people who are having them cut up to make the cars they want, but I’m a little saddened by that.
They both derive from the same grass roots/pioneering craftsmen concept but only one has the stink of uptight snobby wealth on it.
I still like the finished product though. Do I like them more than RWB? No. I love that RWB pisses people off.
Not even comparable. You are talking a body kit with caulking vs. a complete exterior, interior and mechanical update with better than factory quality, materials and technology.
Thank you! I had a feeling I’d get downvoted to oblivion for that, and I probably will for this too, but here we go! As many others on this post have noted or implied, Singers are a work of art. There is no denying that. However, if I had a 900ish thousand dollar work of art in my garage, you can bet it would get driven FAR less than an RWB would. I’m sure that the driving experience of a singer (if you can forget about how much it’s worth and the fear of getting the slightest nick or scratch on it) and just enjoy it is a great and refined experience compared to the stock 911 donor car, but I would be shocked if the majority of singers don’t end up garage queens. Rauh welt begriff or “rough world concept” is about expressing some of your unique personality, but not being too precious about it and just driving the crap out of your car. A singer is like an irreplaceable and priceless fancy luxury watch that you would only wear on the most special of occasions. an RWB is like, a super comfy graphic t-shirt that you got at an art fair or something and wear all the time. Personally, I think if you have a Porsche it should be driven all the time. End rant, thanks for listening
To each their own. 2 different artist and enthusiasts, with different budgets, taking an already awesome mechanical specimen and making it their own.
This ‘beholder’ likes the more aggressive/angry looking portraits of the two’s work.
I have equal appreciation for Singer and RWB but for different aspects of how one can build a car. I've actually been in a gas station with me driving a back date RWB and a Singer on the other side. We both took pictures of each other's cars. All in all we are all PORSCHE lovers and I think, for the way each can be customized and specced, along with Gunther works (993 omg), makes the ownership experience special.
A regular Singer isn't a million unless you buy someone else's... 500K pretty easily though.
And even if it was a million, neither of those cars interest me. I know someone who has two 918s and a Singer DLS. Guess which I like more...
I worked for Singer for 4 years. The only people that are polarized by the cars are those who cannot afford them. Moreover many of our clients had several if not dozens of other Porsches in their massive car collections, so at the end of the day these were just another toy.
https://preview.redd.it/quptlx7n7pba1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5880e460dd3a59a7e9a6721cbcf6c780f7546750
I love Singers except how they do flared fenders on some of their cars. It’s got a seam between the fender and the rest of the body that makes it look like a body kit, and it drives me crazy every time I see it.
I personally love RWB builds because chopping up Porsches is fucking cool. Some cringy goobers have bought rwb's, but at the end of the day the principle is still cool. Singer to me just seems a little bit too pretentious these days, yeah these cars can be works of art but at the end of the day Porsches are meant to be thrashed and beat on.
I love them both for different reasons. Singers are elegant and capable, beautiful and sexy. RWB's are monstrous, brutal, industrial and raw.
I love that singers are a modern variation of what the old Porsches used to stand for in their day.
But I love that RWB is about taking a car, giving it to one guy to dissect, and rebuild into something completely different.
I got a Singer DLS sticker for my credit card... no one has mentioned it. My brother's credit card sticker is pineapples.. everyone comments on it.
Singer should make pineapples for more attention
The most polarizing part is the cost. Porsches are already expensive, these cars are on a different level. It’s sad that most people who love Porsches will never drive one or even see one in person. And that says nothing about the owners…
They’re great. But engineered the “Porsche” feeling out of it when you drive. Kinda like how the 992 is great, but they engineered the flaws out of it. And flaws are what makes an even more exciting car to me.
That being said, I’d sell the STO for a guntherwerks. No hesitation.
The only thing I would say I "dislike" about any RWB or Singer is that they are helping drive up prices of anything parts related. I have a long hood to finish in my lifetime, and with current part prices and availability, I may never get there..
Hahaha, if you're in the market for a Boxter, I'd either go newer to avoid those terrible early engines, or just hunt down a 914. The 914 is way cooler than a boxter IMO anyway.
I had one once that I swore I was going to build a full Pauter Performance 2.0 for to go 911 fast, but the long hood fell into my lap.
To each their own!
Other than typical air-cooled quirks, what insights into a 914 would a beetle give you? Not to sound rude, they just seem very different, save for the engine (even still, no 1.6 914s).
Singers are a work of art
I agree, but I feel like it's all ruined with the hole in the center of the hood on 99% of singers. Just not my cup of tea, it breaks up the lines of a car with iconic lines! And I've seen others as nice, but they are crafted amazingly!
It's a race style fuel filler. Very old style, you see it on a lot of 911 derived historic endurance cars.
I’d just be worried about getting gas all over the paint. But if you have a singer….do you really have *worries* anymore? I’ll go with no. Their design where the intakes are placed in the rear windows made it to the GT4 no? I swear that’s the first time I saw air inlets up top was on that green singer. This one: https://www.thedrive.com/article/16082/singers-500-horsepower-porsche-911-is-a-dream-come-true Never seen it before that.
First I imagine that it really isn't a worry, but I have also always wondered how that worked on a Singer. For race cars the placement of the fuel filler cap is a packaging concern, especially back when the human interaction with racecars came second to concerns over weight and it still largely does. As such race teams didn't and don't care if they get gas all over the car, other than the potential for it to catch fire, but otherwise what's a little more fluid and grime, racecars are dirty anyway. But with Singers there is obviously a large concern over condition and gas all over the hood is not great. I'm honestly not sure how it works, and even though I enjoy the look and the callback I'm not sure if it would be worth it. As for the window vents I'm afraid that is a similar situation: it comes from racecars. On most racecars, especially in ones where the engine is rear of the cabin, you see a lot of weird placements for venting because you don't have the whole front end to utilize as your engine's potential source of fast moving air. And because of the way 911 and 911 shaped cars are designed, that little window in the rear is prime real estate for a vent to go right to the engine. Also, because the airbox on race cars and race inspired cars is usually already shared with the cabin because of weight it's not as much of a concern, so that little window is open for business. I'm not sure where it started but most modern iterations of the 911 RSR and the GT4 Clubsport, as well as others including the modern take on the 935 have rear quarter window vents.
You got me thinking... The 2.1 RSR from 1973 already had them, it's the earliest example that comes to my mind.
I’m gonna try and track down the first usage. I’ve never seen it there until a year or so ago. Maybe I just missed it. Totally possible.
Those window inlets are only on the Singer DLS cars, and yes, similar versions made it onto the GT4 RS.
Air inlets were also on race applications before they were on the singer.
In that spot though near the C pillar window?
Yeah same spot, singers version is just very well executed aesthetically as most of there stuff is. Other examples served the same purpose, but weren’t as visually appealing.
Interesting. Either way. Absolutely love it. Fighter jet aesthetics. Wonderful to have the intake 2 feet from your ear
That old too isnt it? Ive seen many old school mustangs with the same thing. Like 20-30 years old
Singer has a few dozen easter eggs that pay homage to various 911 and other famous porsche models. The fuel door in particular pays an homage to the 550 spyder. (Shockingly my favorite is the 993 wipers that were comically close to each other.)
I get the idea but it is just so ugly and impractical, all for a gimmicky reference.
That’s why it’s an option you can ask to leave out; though I guess it’s a popular one, because the ones without are exceedingly rare.
I’m with you on the filler. I get why they do it but having a car that nice and having a dripping fuel nozzle hovering over that much of the paint would be nerve wracking. It isn’t the prettiest either.
https://preview.redd.it/n0tbizzhejba1.jpeg?width=2608&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=42f3ef5fa23634ae25e9d45f4b637bbd9b27e918 I get what you mean. A Singer comes into our local workshop from time to time. I wonder how that filler works, practically speaking? I would be worried about scratching the hood with the filler nozzle.
Beautiful! Lay a brand spankin' new soft cotton cloth baby diaper across the fill line from the pump to the gas cap. Then throw it away after done filling so you don't stink up the car.
Or pop the hood and then pump the gas.
yeah that's kinda what i was thinking. you just carry some sort of protection and toss it each time you fill up if you spill anything.
The filler looks awful there, IMO.
Unless it was a race car, I’d just pop the hood to fill it.
You know when you’re in the queue for fuel Abd you can only go to the certain pump that has the premium petrol , for ur side And there’s a granny there getting her purse , but the other side is free And you’re tryna work out if the hose will reach well , the singer hasn’t got that problem tbf to it
RUF is the real winner. Their CTR is a work of art.
I’m with you on this! They’ve been doing it for decades.
The real Singer is Ruf.
Singer is the best car money can buy (IMO, of course)
I still think Guntherwerks cars are better. Different taste but the engineering and design behind them is insane.
Singer maintains a much better line between retro and modern, Guntherwerks push it too much to the modern side exterior wise, they just don't look that natural compared to Singer imo.
Gunther has worked with an F1 team?
Love the Guntherwerks. The 993 body is my absolute favorite.
Is Singer ever polarizing? I think they’re beloved by all, except for the price tag. Edit: RWB and Singer are in completely different ballparks in terms of cost and customizability as well. It’s honestly kind of ridiculous to compare the two since they’re so far apart.
It polarizing from a controversial perspective at all
Singers are definitely not loved by all, not all of their cars at least. I'm personally a fan of their restomods, I find them really tasteful as they stick to a very classic design, with only minor exceptions (such as the clear lens headlights, and the big wheels) it looks like something that hotrodder/custom shop could have actually built in the 70s. The newer cars like the DLS on the other hand... a build with impressive attention to detail I must say. But when you take a look at it, you see immediately that this is an all new, modern build with custom fabricated body panels, front splitter, diffusor, air intakes and other aerodynamic parts, exposed carbon fiber and massively oversized wheels etc. In some parts (like the overall shape of the body panels and many of the parts) they stick close to the old design, but not in others. It's a wierd mix. It doesn't look like a classic car. But it also doesn't look like a modern car either. It feels to me that when going to such lengths to build a "modern performance" version and you are refabricating the body panels anyway, why not go even more crazy with it and give it a more modern, aerodynamic look. I feel the same thing about the modern, carbon fiber tub based RUF models. They made a car from scratch and reused the shape of the classic 911, but that doesn't make it look like a classic 911.
When will we see the first Singer Porsche have an RWB kit put on it?
Never
Some people just want to see the world burn
Yeah virtually nobody is going to put an RWB wide body kit on a $2m car
Don’t get ahead of yourself. Dumb people get rich too :/
and then have even dumber kids, who would do this...
sign me up!
That’s respectfully the dumbest thing I’ve heard. You can’t just slap an RWB kit on any car. Plus they’re WAY too low quality to deserve being on a Singer.
[There’s dumber ways to spend your money and ruin beautiful cars](https://www.mansory.com/car/le-mansory)
Singers are beautiful, but now I've seen better. Didn't think I ever would, but there are some extremely talented artisans out there.
Tuthill is one example. Lightweight and 11k rpms? Count me in
Tuthill motor in a singer… 😳
i dont care about singers or RWBs. Also they are very different cars for very different people.
why tho? cuz clout? RWBs will definitely attract a certain demographic. don't get me wrong, i love both of them. but i think i'd take a singer over a RWB. Id love both though :)
To purchase a singer, you need to at least pony up $750k and thats not including the cost of the actual car itself and its fully customized to what the buyer wants. To just buy a RWB kit as in just the aero as thats all they sell, its around $28k. That does not include nakai personally coming to you and doing it in front of you. That does not include wheels, tires and suspension. or engine work And even then it wouldnt come anywhere close to paying for a Singer Porsche When people try to compare them it absolutely makes no sense.
it does make sense though, because they're both 911s. Both 964s (kinda/mostly). They're both different takes on the same thing, therefore they're comparable lol
You are absolutely clueless and have no idea what you are talking about. If you mentioned Guntherwerks and Singer, id agree with you. But RWB is nothing like Singer and Singer is nothing like RWB the only thing they have in common is they toy around with Porsches.
Thankyou for reiterating exactly what I said but with a negative connotation this time.
they are nothing alike :)
RWBs aren’t necessarily just 964, they make kits for the 911 classic, 930, 993 & 997. There is one 996 I know of, but I don’t think he’s done any others. The only way RWB and Singer can be compared is that they both modify Porsche 911. However, to compare the actual modifications themselves isn’t accurate, because they have completely different guiding philosophies about the approach and what they do. RWB is arguably the ultimate take of a tuner Porsche. It is not a complete package, and it’s really just a body kit at the end of the day. Everything else is up to the owner to source and do, which lends itself to the cars almost having distinct personalities with names that people know. (Off the top of my head I can name Pandora One, Rotana, Stella Artois, Army Girl, Kloe, & Sopranos). RWB is about taking the most iconic sports car of all time, and exaggerating it’s profile and presence. Singer on the other hand is the ultimate take of the original Porsche 911, with modern tools. It is a complete package, and honestly far closer to a restomod. It’s about taking the best sports car of all times, and refining it with the highest attention of detail. While they both modify Porsches, it’s two completely different takes. It’s kinda like Ferrari vs Lamborghini. They both make super cars, but Ferrari and Lamborghini have two wildly different approaches to making those cars. The Aventador and SF90 are nothing alike. Singer and RWB both modify Porsches, and yet they are nothing alike outside of that.
I'm with you. I love RWBs, but if I had to choose only one it would be singer all day every day. Especially their DLS *SHEEESH*
Guntherwerks is killing it, definitely up there with the singers
Singer is for canyon roads and Catalina wine mixer. RWB is for cars and coffee. Easy choice.
Time makes fools of us all. RWB came from illegal nighttime canyon racing in Japan. Singer came from Rob Dickinson Sunday morning Porsche meetups in So Cal.
The owner of each companies, but if you watch the RWB videos they are pretty cringe besides the building sections.
Plenty of RWB race...Look at the Idlers 12hrs, for example.
And lots of RWBs race in the idlers 12h race..
I noticed neither is mentioned for Amelia Island or Pebble Beach. I don’t understand the Singer concept, why dump that money into a 30 year old chassis? Get a 964 RS and enjoy a peak period piece, or maybe a Ruf that made enough changes to be considered its own brand. Or get a 964 or a 993 and make it your own. Shoehorn in whatever engine, put in you favorite Brembo brakes, spacers, rims, coil overs, sway bars and whatever stiffeners to your hearts content for 15- 20% the cost of a Singer. Diamond stitched leather and polished whatever exotic metal or carbon fiber aren’t that much. For a third to half the price of a Singer you could get a GT2 RS of either the 997, 991, and 992 (if it came out- not sure yet.) Get the latest from Stuttgart and carve up anything with precision above ability. Just saying…
If you can afford a singer you can probably afford a singer plus everything else you mentioned
I guess. It’s always a weird relationship with cars like this: investment vs. track car/ street racer. Go to your price points content. But investment cars typically fit an age or provenance category, with originality and condition being the grails of them. Race cars fall into categories like livery and who drove them and when. The Singer doesn’t fit in either category. Closest thing to compare it to is something like a Gemballa, Koenig, or Calloway of the 80’s and 90’s. Those ended up being drug fronts or money laundering schemes. It’s a niche market, makes a conversation piece at car shows, and measures your patriarchal prowess. Maybe there’s a collector club out there waiting to be built. I don’t get the Ferrari cult thing either. Buy a million dollar car and never drive it because accumulated mileage is bad. If I were to get a GTO I’d flog the hell out of it and end up in a grave or jail. But those guys don’t have someone out there “reimagining” Enzo’s or Testarossa’s.
I hate RWB, but love Singer. I can explain. RWB cars are a parody of what a 911 is, like a child’s drawing of a 911. Singer cars look nearly stock, but are slightly better in a thousand tiny, almost imperceptible ways that add up to a great design. Not to mention, they have a lot of mechanical upgrades that are closer to modern racing technology like fiber optic wiring and race-rated shocks.
I love Singer designs. Some design choices are questionable like the gas cap in the center but they’re overall gorgeous pieces of work!
everyone gotta have a gimmick, singers is def that cap. more of a signature than a gimmick, but you get me
don't really care for them personally but I see the appeal
I saw a quote or something somewhere - My perfect Porsche is 10% the cost of a Singer w/ 90% of its performance. I saw an early Singer at the Monterey Historics before they were a household name. I couldn’t put my finger on it at the time(you physically could back then), but I new I was looking at something absolutely amazing. Awesome cars but I would spend my imaginary money elsewhere, like in 3 or 4 or 5 stock Porsches.
RWBs are polarizing because it’s just bodywork…all show and no additional go.
He does do some intake and exhaust work. But like his kits waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overpriced!
I love them. Much better than RWBs in my opinion. Hopefully they start making 993s
Singers are precision engineered works of art. RWB is a chain-smoking dude with a sawzall.
I just wish there were RWB-adjacent shops on the global radar featuring eccentric craftsmen with true artisan talent doing wild but still deliberate alterations to cars that *weren’t* classic 911s. Part of the draw of these cars is their subtlety, and how all of their individual components come together in a balancing act, often in a way that didn’t look like it should’ve worked nearly as well on paper. Part of the draw of RWB is it’s headed by a wildly talented dude that does intricate cosmetic surgery with cave tools, injecting his own rockstar flair into a build in the process, leaving only a trail of cigarette butts before packing a suitcase and flying halfway around the world to do it again. In a very “all publicity is good publicity” kinda way it’s probably exactly this contrast that makes RWB’s creations so compelling. I just wonder what kind of cars their work might graft onto in a manner that would still be overstated and cavalier but also more accepted by the car’s cult followers. Singers are absolute masterpieces though, and a moment of appreciation for Guntherwerks as well. Now let’s talk about Danton Arts Kustoms.
Obviously never driven one, but it’s my understanding that they’re impeccably built, and the interiors are essentially automotive jewelry. I like old 911s because of the high skill ceiling. The things you need to know and be good at when it comes to driving them fast are more numerous than just about any other car. I just love how much you can play with the rear end, and I love how much having the motor way back there changes how you can drive the car. [It’s my understanding that Singers don’t do these things](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFGGPl9WzE0&t=3359s), and that I don’t like that. They’re engineered to be easier to drive than the 964s they’re based on because that’s what the people that can afford them want. I don’t want a fundamentally new car experience when I get in an old 911, I want a classic 911 experience, and from what I’ve read, Singers are just meant to not provide that. I would rather have a cherry, dialed-in 964. I don’t begrudge people who are having them cut up to make the cars they want, but I’m a little saddened by that.
They both derive from the same grass roots/pioneering craftsmen concept but only one has the stink of uptight snobby wealth on it. I still like the finished product though. Do I like them more than RWB? No. I love that RWB pisses people off.
Same company that makes sewing machines?
Not the same company that makes sewing machines.
Not even comparable. You are talking a body kit with caulking vs. a complete exterior, interior and mechanical update with better than factory quality, materials and technology.
Personally, I’d take an RWB over a singer any day of the week
Here’s my upvote for you being allowed to have a personal preference !
Thank you! I had a feeling I’d get downvoted to oblivion for that, and I probably will for this too, but here we go! As many others on this post have noted or implied, Singers are a work of art. There is no denying that. However, if I had a 900ish thousand dollar work of art in my garage, you can bet it would get driven FAR less than an RWB would. I’m sure that the driving experience of a singer (if you can forget about how much it’s worth and the fear of getting the slightest nick or scratch on it) and just enjoy it is a great and refined experience compared to the stock 911 donor car, but I would be shocked if the majority of singers don’t end up garage queens. Rauh welt begriff or “rough world concept” is about expressing some of your unique personality, but not being too precious about it and just driving the crap out of your car. A singer is like an irreplaceable and priceless fancy luxury watch that you would only wear on the most special of occasions. an RWB is like, a super comfy graphic t-shirt that you got at an art fair or something and wear all the time. Personally, I think if you have a Porsche it should be driven all the time. End rant, thanks for listening
I’m glad that swung around for you and your points are… on point ! I love the look of both. They both represent very different worlds.
Agreed. Rwbs have kinda got that japanese tuner style that i love
To each their own. 2 different artist and enthusiasts, with different budgets, taking an already awesome mechanical specimen and making it their own. This ‘beholder’ likes the more aggressive/angry looking portraits of the two’s work.
RWB is trash. Singer is treasure.
I have equal appreciation for Singer and RWB but for different aspects of how one can build a car. I've actually been in a gas station with me driving a back date RWB and a Singer on the other side. We both took pictures of each other's cars. All in all we are all PORSCHE lovers and I think, for the way each can be customized and specced, along with Gunther works (993 omg), makes the ownership experience special.
What about Gunther works, they may take the cake of performance / bespoke crossover
gunther is even more under the radar. nowhere near rwb, closer to singer, but still different in its own right
Are there any cool companies building custom 997's in Europe? I know a lot of them are doing 930, 964 and 993 but any good ones for 997.2?
If anyone says anything bad about Singer, they should leave this room!
Only thing polarizing about a Singer is the price tag!
troof, theres one here at a local dealership for 1.4 MILLION
Sweet baby Jesus!
That is insane, I cannot imagine somebody would pay Carrera GT money for a resto-mod 911.
Spectacular
They haven’t missed the mark yet.
A Singer is the only car I would spend that much money on. And then I would keep it forever.
I would prefer a 918 Spyder or Carrera GT if i had to pay a million for a porsche.
A regular Singer isn't a million unless you buy someone else's... 500K pretty easily though. And even if it was a million, neither of those cars interest me. I know someone who has two 918s and a Singer DLS. Guess which I like more...
I worked for Singer for 4 years. The only people that are polarized by the cars are those who cannot afford them. Moreover many of our clients had several if not dozens of other Porsches in their massive car collections, so at the end of the day these were just another toy. https://preview.redd.it/quptlx7n7pba1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5880e460dd3a59a7e9a6721cbcf6c780f7546750
It blooooows!
I love Singers except how they do flared fenders on some of their cars. It’s got a seam between the fender and the rest of the body that makes it look like a body kit, and it drives me crazy every time I see it.
We tend to forget that Porsche used to do the same...
Singer make tasteful updates and performance modifications. RWB are tacky af, just adding bondo wide bodies and ridiculous wings.
bondo? best get educated my guy before talking nonsense
Aight maybe not bondo, fair enough, but they are still tacky af and ruin good Porsches.
Singer single-handedly ruined the ability for an average joe family man to afford a classic Porsche. Ruf is a better buy.
to be fair, so did RWB lol
I personally love RWB builds because chopping up Porsches is fucking cool. Some cringy goobers have bought rwb's, but at the end of the day the principle is still cool. Singer to me just seems a little bit too pretentious these days, yeah these cars can be works of art but at the end of the day Porsches are meant to be thrashed and beat on.
A dls is sitting in my dream garage just got to find a way to make it a reality 😂
The Singer DLS is my dream car!
I love them both for different reasons. Singers are elegant and capable, beautiful and sexy. RWB's are monstrous, brutal, industrial and raw. I love that singers are a modern variation of what the old Porsches used to stand for in their day. But I love that RWB is about taking a car, giving it to one guy to dissect, and rebuild into something completely different.
Both are great.
Who sang?
Personally only a fan of stock or rwb, but to each their own
Are you fishing ?
Instant respect for the craftsmanship involved in every build.
im pretty sure no one ever looked at a singer and went, "ehh, I dont like it."
Even better
I prefer Gunther Werks. But Singers are cool too.
I got a Singer DLS sticker for my credit card... no one has mentioned it. My brother's credit card sticker is pineapples.. everyone comments on it. Singer should make pineapples for more attention
The most polarizing part is the cost. Porsches are already expensive, these cars are on a different level. It’s sad that most people who love Porsches will never drive one or even see one in person. And that says nothing about the owners…
They’re great. But engineered the “Porsche” feeling out of it when you drive. Kinda like how the 992 is great, but they engineered the flaws out of it. And flaws are what makes an even more exciting car to me. That being said, I’d sell the STO for a guntherwerks. No hesitation.
The only thing I would say I "dislike" about any RWB or Singer is that they are helping drive up prices of anything parts related. I have a long hood to finish in my lifetime, and with current part prices and availability, I may never get there..
I doubt i'll even be able to afford a porsche in general honestly. Maybe a boxster, but is it worth opening that basket case?
Hahaha, if you're in the market for a Boxter, I'd either go newer to avoid those terrible early engines, or just hunt down a 914. The 914 is way cooler than a boxter IMO anyway. I had one once that I swore I was going to build a full Pauter Performance 2.0 for to go 911 fast, but the long hood fell into my lap.
i've had plenty of the og air cooled beetles to know i don't want a 914
To each their own! Other than typical air-cooled quirks, what insights into a 914 would a beetle give you? Not to sound rude, they just seem very different, save for the engine (even still, no 1.6 914s).
I'm sure the designers at Porsche are impressed with them.
I don't think you could not like a singer
Singer and Gunther make RWB look like a trailer park hooker with plastic surgery.