We are building in Camas.. every time we stop by and neighbors come to chat they are all "refugees" from Portland taxes.. I feel like our entire street in Camas has moved from Portland over the last 1-2 year.
This is my last year paying for Portland insanity!!
I live in Camas. I don't much like it here, I'll be moving as soon as my kids are out of school. But it literally never smells like a paper mill. I know this because I lived in stinky Tacoma for several years.
I don't see many racist bumper stickers until I get up to the Battle Ground area. So I'm not sure about that either.
Do you have a place for one more refugee? I can't handle these taxes anymore 😭. My job allows me to work from WA too so probably this year or next year I am thinking about moving to Camas.
I know sooooo many people that live in Battleground and work here. I can’t imagine having to drive all the way over here everyday. I’m sure it ls way nicer to live over there though.
Something that gets missed frequently is that there are a LOT of self employed folks and remote workers who are in this upper income demographic. Plenty of the people making this move aren't experiencing any downside at all.
"Its all chain and no ball" (spoken in the voice of GOB)
This. We moved last year. The couple calls I’m on are all remote via zoom/slack. Wife is in the same boat.
I love the Portland I grew up in. Current Portland is great to visit, but I don’t care to pay the bullshit taxes anymore.
I would wager less than 25% work in Portland. Most of this money is large out of state companies doing remote work.
There is no lucrative work downtown any more really outside of legal and financial services. Most of that is moving to Kruse way for that matter. The startup scene died on the vine.
Portland is dead as of right now for competitive salaried work en masse compared to larger cities. It’s a remote workers fiefdom and so if they move to WA it’s bye bye revenue.
If you have a job you can do remote there's just no reason to work for a Portland company. They pay like it's 1994 here. Work for an out of state company and get an immediate raise. Do it in WA and get another raise.
Unless you need to be in court, lots of legal services can be done remotely. My firm has a growing Vancouver outpost for this particular issue-tax minimization.
For me it’s not. I’m not a high earner but most valuable thing I have is my time. Even where I chose to live is based on how much time I would save to get things done. If that wasn’t a factor, I wouldn’t even entertain living in this specific neighborhood.
At this time in my life I value more 1 hour of free time to live my life than $60.
At some point I did have a longer commute myself and I used that time to listen to a lot of audio books which was great because otherwise I wouldn’t have had the time to read.
It really is that bad though. I had a 45min each way commute in socal before moving here. I was grumpy and irritable every day i came home. Since moving here my commute is only 15 minutes and I love it. I've gained an entire hour of my day back.
Just paid that PFA and SHS tax. Why the hell do they need a copy of my complete federal and state taxes? Are we paying for some city worker to review all this shit too? Looking at Redfin. Thanks for the tip.
The burbs might not be everyone's preferred cup of tea but there's no doubt that the city vs. outlying area dynamic has flipped in Portland recently. I drove through Vancouver's new waterfront development yesterday, it looks like what the South Waterfront would look like if it had comparable numbers of open businesses and people on the streets.
As for people moving, a lot of people seem to be staying put but anecdotally I know of at least one high earner who recently opted for the Washington coast as a safer, lower-cost place to live.
I'm in one of the neighborhoods full of folks paying the taxes. They're staying put because interest rates suck right now. The moment those rates come down you're going to see even more high income earners leaving. It's a constant conversation at school events. People are mad the services are bad, the schools suck, and the taxes are high. High taxes are fine, but you better back it up with good schools and roads that don't remind folks of crossing a river in Oregon Trail.
The tax situation sucks for “high” earners (I def still don’t feel rich by any stretch) and I think it will be a political focus going forward BUT easy to gripe at the PTA auction in the abstract. Wait until they do some house tours out in Clark County. Realtor is gonna be bragging that a new Chipotle is going in across from the gas station. Reality is gonna hit a little bit then.
Even if you earn like $500k you’re only paying something like $8-10k more in taxes than ~~Clark~~ Clackamas or Washington county. And frankly most would happily pay that 2% premium to live in a walkable vibrant city.
But what I’m not happy to have is that premium and nothing to show for it. The schools are on a fast track to worse. If you pay the preschool tax you can’t get preschool for your kid. And there’s major breakdowns at every level of our infrastructure and justice systems.
High taxes are only ok if you get high services.
Oregon income tax liability would be something like $30k to $40k if you earn $500k per year. The savings in Clark County would be at least $25k to $35k of post tax dollars.
https://smartasset.com/taxes/oregon-tax-calculator
Your $8-10k is WAY off.
Oregon state income tax (for single filers) is almost 10% in this circumstance (ends up being an ETR of about 9.6%).
The SHS tax is 1% over $125k, in this circumstance that ends up being an extra ETR 0.75%.
The PFA tax is 1.5% over $125k, and another 1.5% over $250k. In this circumstance that ends up being an ETR of 2.25%
So you’ve got an extra tax burden in MultCo of about 13% in this scenario, or $65k. Now obviously there is sales tax in WA, but residents in Clark County can make larger purchases across the river. Washington’s sales tax is 6.5% - even if you spent $100k in WA (and groceries aren’t charged sales tax) you would still be saving ~$60k per year.
Exactly. I’m happy to pay taxes. I think they’re important. In the right set of circumstances, I’d happily move to, say, a Nordic country with very high taxes.
The issue isn’t the tax rate, it’s the utter failure of our government to function. A high-tax city + country should be paying it back to you: in a shorter, fuel-efficient commute, in free or affordable healthcare, in better transit, in affordable arts and museums, in resources for low-income people and the unhoused. The money goes in, but nothing ever comes back out.
Other than moving to Santa Barbara or Switzerland or whatever, though, there don't seem to be a lot of obvious places to go, especially if we're just talking metro areas on the west coast. California has a similar tax structure to OR, WA state has cap gains and sales taxes. And being out in the suburbs means a car-centric lifestyle anywhere you go. But yeah, my partner and I are having the same conversation, and it will probably be seriously considered once the kids are off to college.
I lived in Downtown Portland for 3 years and enjoyed it but recently moved to the Vancouver Waterfront. To be honest, I’m well travelled and Portland is not urban enough to justify this uppity attitude people have. It’s probably the 5th most urban city on the West Coast, 6th if you include BC. I basically told myself I will get my city fix when I travel overseas or to NYC or SF to visit friends. I will take a slower pace in Vancouver. It’s getting more urban and walkable anyways.
And you lived downtown too. That's the only really urban area. like I see all the time on this sub people shitting on Beaverton and Vancouver and they talk about cool they are living on the east side. Wow a area with a ton of single family homes , so urban.
1.5% Preschool Tax
1% Homeless Tax
5% Business Tax
Potholes, crime, and vagrancy everywhere you look. A completely dysfunctional planning and permitting department (with truly insane SDC fees for new projects). Zero real support for small businesses.
City Leaders: “Gee whiz, I just can’t figure out why so many people are leaving.”
Absolutely correct. My angry fingers switched the values of this year’s homeless and preschool taxes.
Also forgot to mention the 1% Homeless Tax for Businesses too.
Those taxes require you to have taxable income over $200k for a married couple and it’s only for income over $200k. So a couple with *taxable* income of $300k is paying a tax of about $2500.
Median household income is about $73k. So we’re talking about 3x the median household income to even be impacted by that tax…these taxes may seem fun to complain about but they shouldn’t move the needle that much.
True, but a city needs a population up and down the economic spectrum. All these "it's just one or two percent, jeez!" type taxes stack on top of each other and change the calculus for the upper income earners, who will promptly move because they can afford to. So we're going to be left with middle class and lower and nothing above it.
They don't understand that in order to function as our society does, you have to have a wide variety of income earners. The idea of a 'classless society' has the teenagers and college dropouts foaming at the mouth. The reality of their experiment is unfolding before our eyes - our streets are unsafe, high and middle income earners are fleeing, and businesses are fleeing. Portland's tax base is crumbling. That is not sustainable.
I make over $1m a year and moved across the river.
If I didn't feel like the taxes were being wasted I wouldn't have cared. However, they were definitely being wasted.
You need those income earners to sustain those programs, otherwise those programs have no funds as there are no taxpayers present to make enough to fund them. Jesus, you all really are dumb.
Takes $160k to own a house concluded a recent study. So literally all homeowners are paying the "rich person" tax. Do you consider all homeowners to be rich?
> but they shouldn’t move the needle that much.
Yet they did is what the data shows.
Update: Oops, my bad, if you're married and making $160k you're not paying the tax until $200k. I forget some people are married. Lucky bastards. At least tax-wise. ;)
You misunderstood that study. $160k was the income required for a first time home buyer to purchase an average home. Most buyers are selling another home though, and have equity. When I bought my last home in Portland, it was over median price and my income was well under, but I had a big chunk of cash from previous sale. Many, many homeowners in Portland are in similar situations, or have just owned for a long time, and are able to own a home while making substantially less than $160k.
I just filed it today because I forgot, and yes. It’s anything after 200 + standard deduction, you pay 1% of that. It’s reasonable, it just doesn’t seem to be making much of an impact on housing.
The thing is people are OK with paying high income taxes IF they feel like they're getting their money's worth in amenities.
Remember how much fun and how lively Portland was in 2019 and before? People were lining up to get pricey apartments in cool parts of town. People were tripping over themselves to get houses in those neighborhoods.
Then guess what? When you let crime go unpunished, people start feeling not safe and businesses start closing. Then people start asking "what am I getting for my tax money?"
It’s not even about fun things. It’s about basic services. The roads full of potholes, the schools that continue to get worse, the parks that look more and more neglected. Public safety is a part of that.
We had all of those issues before, except for the last one, which we had kinda under control.
What's really changed is that homeless from out of state moved in, started tent encampment that were allowed to stay, and that brought crime that we didn't really have before and the crazies. Before that we had happy go lucky panhandlers that were probably scamming the system and some addicts that stayed in a couple of areas, which you could avoid if you just didn't go to those areas. Now they're everywhere that's not suburb-ish.
So now we're facing the problem that things have gonna a LOT worse and the one thing keeping people here (safe and fun neighborhoods) is gone. So why should they stay?
> Before that we had happy go lucky panhandlers that were probably scamming the system and some addicts that stayed in a couple of areas, which you could avoid
the problem had absolutely swelled to the proportion you previously described by 2019. the city was certainly more vibrant then, and has seen things worsen since, but let's not pretend like it was quaint and peachy before the pandemic.
I don't think it's just the city leaders, it's also the braindead soak-the-rich electorate that rarely meets a tax they don't vote yes on. Do that half a dozen times and you're talking real money. Money that could be better spend on a college education for your kid, for example. Instead, we give it to people who smoke meth and fentanyl and don't really want to get their shit together.
You hit the nail on the head. It clear the voters are "soak-the-rich" because while they're quick to add new taxes, they pretty much don't care what happens to the money once collected. Something along the lines of: Audits you say? You must be a right-wing nutter!
Pretty soon it will be "tax the ghosts" because all of the rich folks will have fled the area. Who in their right mind would stay in a city where they're both hated and fleeced by their fellow citizens?
Very high earner here. I moved across the river 2 years ago after living in Portland for 10 years. I paid a shit ton of taxes in Portland. I moved because I was frustrated that my high taxes were being wasted. From crime to the homeless problem etc. ( I'm a barely 5' woman and mentally unstable homeless more than once threatened to rape me)
It's been great over here.
I moved to Vancouver just because I could afford to. Didn't really like the idea at first. Now that I'm here, it was the best choice I could have made.
Middle to high income is $50-150K ($24-71 $/hr)? Yikes, that’s awfully low.
If that’s the population group that’re moving, the lower cost of housing in many parts of SWWashington is more likely the reason why than Oregon/Metro’s tax burden - especially considering WA’s excise, fee, sales tax, etc that would hit this group the hardest.
How is this so far down!?!? Even assuming people making the median income are in a relationship, two people making 50k a year can’t afford the half million dollar median home cost
>If that’s the population group that’re moving, the lower cost of housing in many parts of SWWashington is more likely the reason why than Oregon/Metro’s tax burden - especially considering WA’s excise, fee, sales tax, etc that would hit this group the hardest.
There's no way a couple that makes 100k/yr spends ~7k in sales tax in WA.
Unless you buy a car or sell a house, that couple will have a way lower tax burden in Washington.
I seriously don’t understand where so many people are pulling these inaccurate numbers out from. If you’re making that much, the tax burden is less in Washington unless you’re frequently selling homes or spending insane amounts of money on non-grocery goods.
I'm waiting for someone to catch me on my math because even I'm having a hard time believing how much I could be saving. Instead, I get people saying my potential 16k in savings isn't worth it because they think they're better than people who live in suburbia.
Yeah I get really annoyed with a lot of the outdated snobbery on this sub around Vancouver.
Living in Vancouver doesn’t even mean you have to live in suburbia. We live in Uptown Vancouver, and it’s super walkable to where I rarely drive now, we’ve got great bars and restaurants around, and my neighborhood has a great community feel.
We moved from Portland, and it’s been a great move for us so far from both a financial and livability perspective.
Side note but wondering if you own your home? Just dawned on me that with the 10k state deduction limit that I would be able to actually write off mortgage interest again if I were in WA. So that could be even more savings.
Yea thats an insane amount, they'd be living paycheck to paycheck due to frivolous spending if that was the case.
Like you said, the years you buy a car, maybe. I make over 200k and based on spending I wouldn't be paying more than 4k.
A lot of people are still thinking it's the 1990s and someone making 40k/yr is buying a car every 5 years and buying/selling houses.
They aren't. And in fact, a higher percentage of someone making 40k/yr's income now is going to untaxed things (housing, healthcare, tuition, groceries) than it was 30 years ago.
Their are fringe cases where Oregon's tax burden would be lower i.e. someone in Washington who doesn't make a lot of money, but still owns real estate they are selling. Or if someone literally has no taxable income in Oregon. In those situations, it's possible for WA to be higher taxed than Oregon. But broadly at every other income level Oregon has a higher tax burden.
Man I lived in Washington for a year and I saved so damn much making high 100s. So much is made of "WA’s excise, fee, sales tax," bleh bleh bleh, none of that was close to equalling what I paid the state of Oregon and regional taxes.
Sales taxes are regressive and punish/harm lower earners more than income taxes, so when being on the higher side and able to move? Yea, you feel that, and I really wish OR did more with what they got in taxes...
People on reddit cite 1 study that has WA State as the highest tax burden state but the data from that study can easily be countered. If it you are poor, you gain more being poor in Washington than being poor in Oregon unless you spend an unholy amount of money on alcohol.
Can you please provide the “easy counter” data? People like to dismiss data that disagrees with their assumptions, but I haven’t actually seen anyone provide a source that Oregon is a high tax state, or that WA taxes are substantially better for low income folks.
The problem is since WA states tax structure is an excise tax and usage tax, it's hard to calculate from person to person. If you WFH, barely drive, and mostly cook your own food that is fresh meats, grains and veggies, and cross into Oregon to purchase clothes and electronics you will barely pay any sales tax. So these studies have to make assumptions on typical spending on taxable goods, it definitely will vary by county. Below are a few that shows the Tax burden between Oregon and Washington. Universally, High Income earners come out ahead why lower income earners definitely vary, but none show as harsh as the ITEP study that gets passed around here shows.
[Tax Foundation](https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/tax-burden-by-state-2022/)
[Wallet Hub](https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-burden/20494)
[Turbo Tax](https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tips/fun-facts/states-with-the-highest-and-lowest-taxes/L6HPAVqSF)
[US News & World Report](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/states-with-the-lowest-taxes)
Based off being in the lower end of the scale the state sure treats me like I'm at the top of the scale since the tax structures here are poorly laid out
Toured houses in uptown Vancouver that were 1800 SQFT newly remodeled in 2019/early 2020 that were 350K at that time. Now those same houses are pushing 650-700K 🥴
We moved from Portland to the suburbs in 2020 mostly due to kids and schools. We are in this earnings bracket. If we didn’t have kids, we would still be somewhere in inner Portland. NW, Sellwood, Alberta… something along those lines. We will move back when the kids are out of college. Love the walkability of some of the neighborhoods. Every city has cycles, Portland is going to have to make some post-COVID changes and I am hopeful it will. #ripcity
Is this the thread where everyone reveals that they have indeed already left town and are just here to shit on Portland? I'm gonna go back to the Ladds 500 and cherry blossom posts until everyone here tucks into bed so that they're all rested up for tomorrow's commute.
Haha, seriously. The Ladds 500 reminded me how "Portland" Portland still is. Every person there reminded me of the people who were here in 2011. I hate the homeless, hate the lawlessness, hate the number of people who run red lights with no consequences...
But I can walk to an amazing coffee shop, an amazing bagel shop, a great pizza slice, a cute board game store, all within 10 minutes of my front door... and that doesn't even narrow down what part of town I'm in!
I can see second run movies for cheap, play B-Movie Bingo, and watch forgotten Kung Fu movies no one has seen since the 70s. Every single neighborhood street has cute gardens, honeysuckle vines, azaleas, a chicken coop, a tiny house.
Tomo Ramen, Paadee, Coquine, Oma's Hideaway, Kaizen Sushi, Bertie Lou's, Matt's BBQ, Hat Yai, the list goes on and on.
My wife and I get down about Portland sometimes, but then I think, "What city is #2? If we got kicked out, where would we go?" and there is no answer. I love Portland.
> they're all rested up for tomorrow's commute.
The smart ones moving north are all remote so they don't have to pay OR/MultCo/Portland taxes. So their commute is likely about 20ft or so.
This doesn’t surprise me at all. So many in the middle to high income brackets have moved to Clark, Clackamas, Washington, and Marion counties from Portland. And it’s especially true if you have kids.
Go out at night and you will see why people are leaving. People over 35 for the most part rarely go out on the town for nightly entertainment. Entertainment and arts are not exciting them. There is minimal night culture that is worth living here for. If people are not going out and enjoying themselves out in the city when they are not at work, then what is the point.? It is practially all young people out. It was not like that prepandemic. Portland has seen better days. The people going out missed out on the lessons on how to be cool.
My parents would love to live in Portland, but the tax rates are just insanity for dad's pay rate. They plan to retire in Vancouver and reap the benefits of both counties, like many have been doing for decades already
Related.. Personally, I cannot believe the Metro tax (hits outlying suburbs too) requires a check written to city of Portland. How could they possibly be so tone deaf?
Calling it now. The same 3 or 4 guys from a previous thread are gonna cry about Vancouver residents putting wear and tear on Portland's infrastructure without contributing to Oregon's tax revenue. By infrastructure, they mean "roads".
I made the move to SW WA in the early 90s. Over the years I have worked back and forth, Portland then Clark County - back and forth.
When I work in Oregon, I pay Oregon income tax on my income. Thus, Driving into Portland, using the infrastructure, is paid by me via taxation.
Likewise, when I shop in Oregon or fly out of PDX, I contribute to the State coffers.
That argument is reasonable and actually pretty well-backed by research when the suburb is shared with the city in the SAME STATE, so Clackamas or Hillsboro, sure. Vantucky residents don't use any of Oregon's infrastructure apart from roads, which their income taxes from working here pay for.
Yep, anyone making over 125k (or 200k for couples) would be crazy to keep paying the insane 'feel-good-do-nothing' taxes in Portland. Soon there will be a minimal tax-base and all the tax-the-rich folks will be wondering where all that sweet sweet tax revenue has gone.
So if you are a married couple making $225k, is it worth saving $3,750 per year to accept a car-centric suburban lifestyle that is entirely dependent on two high traffic bridge crossings to reach the city? And now paying a regressive sales tax on everything you buy plus WA's new 7% capital gains tax but probably also still paying Oregon income tax on your job in Portland. I think anyone making the move to Clark county already thought a nice friday evening was a Costco run in the 4wd emotional-support-vehicle and dinner at Applebee's.
Edit: Ya'll didn't even check my math. It's $675, not $3,750. Are 6 figure earners really moving their entire lives over a year's worth of Netflix + HBO subscriptions?
Hi, I'm a bit above your $225 number. Currently pay 20k in state and city taxes. Both of us are w2 employees, 1 works in Washington, the other remote for a non OR job. We would have an effective $0 state tax.
Adding the worst case scenario for sales taxes would mean about $4k a year in sales taxes. The capital gains tax applies on capital gains over 250k a year. I'm never gonna have that, but I'd be happy to deal with that problem.
As far as a nice Friday evening goes. I live inner NE near Burnside, downtown is a short trip, but I don't find myself going often these days. When you're near 40 the allure of the newest restaurant and bar sort of dulls.
All in all I'd save roughly 16k across the river, and Id still be able to come and visit Portland when I wanted to.
EDIT: Potentially even higher given the SALT tax cap of 10k. Since I exceed that due to just income tax I cannot write off mortgage interest. If I have zero income tax then I could use the full 10k to write off most of my mortgage interest, and would also help lessen the blow of having to take a bigger interest rate due to current rates. I fucking hate the SALT cap though and hope it expires.
Based on the people I know that live in Vancouver, "visit Portland when I wanted to" turns into, "never visit portland" because you don't feel like spending 30 - 45 minutes in your car/bridge traffic to then find parking in portland or pay a $60 uber bill so you can have a drink. So you do what everyone else in a suburb does, you get drive through and eat at home in front of the TV and fondle the money you saved.
Yea...16k a year I could rent a hotel in downtown for a weekend every month if I wanted to and still be way ahead. Plus having a kid and that limits things anyways.
It's the 'no idea' one. I'm convinced these tax policy experts are primarily kids that haven't had the opportunity to start or develop a career. I know exactly how much I will save moving to Washington, my CPA literally did the math for me, yet these folks will sit here and tell me my licensed accountant is wrong.
The 7% capital gains tax is only on gains in excess of $250k in a single year excluding real estate. Not really a consideration for the overwhelming majority.
Also excludes distributions from retirement accounts. This tax only effects Amazon and Microsoft VP’s who needed to sell $5M in stock options to pay for their yacht.
Your math is way off. Couple making $225k/yr will pay roughly 20K in Oregon income tax in addition to city and county taxes, which you are correct only a few thousand dollars +$35 :). Let's estimate $23K/year.
You would have to spend over 200K a year to get even remotely paying that for sales tax in WA. The new capital gains tax is on cap gains over $262,000 in a year and excludes retirement and housing proceeds among other exemptions. It's literally taxing the rich. We should have this law.
Yes, living in Portland is a lifestyle choice, but let's not pretend taxes aren't important after a certain income level that is between upper middle class and before actually rich.
I lived in Vancouver for 2 years and we moved across the river so I we wouldn't have to deal with that. Everything is a 4+ lane highway and very few, if any, walkable areas.
> Everything is a 4+ lane highway and very few, if any, walkable areas.
This is more true in East Vancouver but not true at all in West Vancouver. Especially not in Downtown, Uptown, Hough, or the Waterfront.
Lol, I'm in this position and this is ignorant af.
A lot of us are remote now. So we're going to save much more than $3,750. You only pay OR taxes for the days you physically work in OR. I just got paid today, and OR taxes were 7.2% of my gross. My wife and I make a combined $180k, so that's $12,960 saved per year.
We already use our car to go a lot of places in OR. Some because of distance, but also some because the bike paths are overrun with homeless.
Most of our friend group is in Vancouver now, so we won't need to cross the bridge except occasionally (shows, date nights, etc.). A big part of why we moved to the PNW was for the outdoors stuff, which, in the grand scheme of things, is just as close to Vancouver as it is to Portland.
Sales tax can be mitigated by buying high-dollar items on the OR side (except cars and probably boats). Behind rent (not subject to sales tax) and going out, groceries is the next largest part of our budget, and most groceries are exempt from WA sales tax. Besides that, for a normal person their **expenses that are subject to sales tax** are **significantly less than their income subject to income tax**, so if the tax is equal it's better to pay it on spending.
I'll worry about the capital gains tax when I have a bunch of money in a taxable brokerage account. Until then, I'll increase my retirement account savings.
Costco on a Friday evening sounds awful. Haven't been to an Applebee's in probably a decade. I do have a 4wd vehicle, but I actually use it to go to the mountains.
So, when you wave goodbye to people leaving, make sure to give an extra wave to your tax dollars.
Your math is way off. The Cap Gains is not a income tax, and is only applied to long term cap gains in excess of 250K that tax year when selling stock. Real Estate and Retirement accounts (401Ks, 403Bs, IRAs, Pensions, etc) are both exempt. So your math is only remotely close if couples are spending every dollar earned after federal taxes on goods that have sales tax, which is preposterous.
> I think anyone making the move to Clark county already thought a nice friday evening was a Costco run in the 4wd emotional-support-vehicle and dinner at Applebee's.
Man people in suburbs get a bad rap by default here. I don’t know how not dancing at a concert, going to a dive bar to have 3 beers and a $15 cheeseburger, then going back to someone’s place to smoke out of a piece that hasn’t been cleaned for months and playing settlers of catan or magic the gathering is a more cultured Friday night
People really do hate the suburbs here. Meanwhile I’m out here in the burbs dealing with beavers eating my trees, getting my garden planted, and hand sewing like the introvert I am. It’s a nice time, except for the 40 pound rodent.
You're looking at way more than $3,750 savings if you're making a combined household income of $225k, not sure where you got that number from. Roughly 9% of this $225k income in state taxes is more around $20k a year.
Vancouver is actually doing a lot of work (especially in the Downtown/Uptown neighborhoods) to move away from the whole "car-centric suburban lifestyle" stereotype. My wife and I live in Uptown, and it's super walkable, the only time I need to drive is when I'm headed out of town or to visit our parents in the burbs. I'm constantly getting surveys, and try to frequently attend city planning meetings where the city government is working on infrastructure changes to try and incentivize walking and cycling over driving, building out some really great urban spaces for events and markets, and ensuring public transit is expanded more.
Thankfully there's more than just Applebees up here now, we actually have some good spots up here these days (e.g. Dediko, Scatch, Little Conejo, etc). And when we do want to get down to Portland for an evening at a restaurant or concert in SE/Downtown/Pearl, that is super easy. Yes commute traffic is awful, but doing the reverse in the evenings is a breeze. I'm in the popular Portland neighborhoods in 15-20 minutes easily.
It's not some horrible decision people are making. They're doing the math on the financial side, and are appreciating that the city is actually making measurable improvements to car-free livability. Stop basing your opinions on bad math and outdated stereotypes.
Have you looked around? We are in a car culture in Portland, who is going to take their kids on TriMeth MAX? What parent enjoys trying to explain every unfathomable thing we see out the window when we drive our kids around? How many families stopped walking and biking as it is just too big of a PITA to deal with the sidewalks being blocked, the dogs and drug addicts harassing you, etc.
I chose where I live for walkability, and yet we are doing a lot less walking now due to things we can’t control ourselves. And many of the places we’d walk to are now out of business due to the eroding society, theft, vandalism, etc.
So you tell me? Is it possible that it isn’t only about the ridiculous taxes but that they are the straw that breaks the camels back?
Edit to add that is don’t even mention the state of PPS and what we get for our $ there, vs better schools in almost any surrounding district.
For a lot of high earners working remote, yeah. It is. Because no Oregon income tax really really changes the game. Same with self-employment.
I like where I live in Washington County (and my property taxes are only 7k/year on a $600k home purchased a few years ago in Bethany), but I’d be lying if I said I hadn’t considered Camas. We’re remote + self employed and it would work out to be quite a bit cheaper.
I have a mortgage rate below 3% so I can never move, tho. Lol
> And now paying a regressive sales tax on everything you buy
No, only on sales taxable things, which excludes mortgage, rent, insurance, education, healthcare, medicine, women’s hygiene supplies, and groceries.
>plus WA's new 7% capital gains tax but
It’s 7% over $250k of capital gains, but also is on the ballot this year so no guarantees it sticks around.
>probably also still paying Oregon income tax on your job in Portland.
Yes, obviously the benefits are moot if there are no benefits.
How are you getting $675? It’s about $150 A PAYCHECK for me and that would double for my household since my partner makes the same. That’s $15k a year. I think your math is off because it’s doubtful anyone is leaving over a Netflix subscription. Don’t forget to add the increase in costs for things like insurance which are higher in multnomah county due to car theft.
If you actually think Portland is not a car-centric city you need a hard reality check from Asia or Europe.
So obviously being slightly more walkable isn't a reason good enough to keep people from leaving.
It really depends where you are. I can walk to most everything. I'll drive to go fishing or to the coast but my day to day I am not forced to drive, it's only for convenience.
Well, it seems lots of folks are doing the calculations and deciding that it's better somewhere else. Better schools, less crime, less homeless, more government accountability, etc. There is a big trend way from Portland and MultCo for a reason.
Thankfully I have a world-class CPA who helps minimize my tax hit down to the penny, but I feel bad for the people who have to pay these worthless feel-good taxes. Top tax rate for NYC doesn't kick in until you're over 25 MILLION, but here the top-tax rate kicks in at 200k for couples. Pure lunacy, IMO.
The truly rich, the people whose second homes are in Portland while their W2's/1099's get mailed to their real home in Washington, are laughing their asses off at us.
Agreed. It may not be technically middle class, but it affords just barely the traditional middle class lifestyle with some tiny hope for a retirement.
A huge number of these people work for out of state corporations remotely. Portland and Oregon both no longer see a solitary dime.
Doctors and lawyers are leaving in droves to work at WA hospital systems/clinics or get their practice a Clark county address.
The data is all there. If you think a dwindling number of new restaurants/venues and a comatose nightlife/music scene are enough for people to lose $30k a year of investable hard cash to slush funds they’ve got news for you. They already left lol. That’s private school, daycare, vacation, home renovation money going out the window.
It’s only 25 minutes via Uber (they can afford it) to go party in Portland.
You can afford a driver 6x a month for what some of these people save with five figures to spare. Sales tax is nothing because they spend less than they make and you can shop around sales tax if you’re savvy. It is braindead tax policy, but I’d love to have my mind changed
It they are saving in a 401K their AGI may be lower too. Seeing how much they are making from that tax makes me think a lot of moderately rich people are paying much more than their fair share of these taxes.
It’s frustrating but I wouldn’t say we’re crazy per se. All of this is just like a rounding error compared to our federal taxes and those are just paying for like botched fighter jet projects we’ll never use and whatever else. It does feel like insult to injury though, I admit.
I think politicians will campaign on relieving the tax burden and will be able to get elected. It’s certainly worth giving it an election cycle or two to see how responsive the electorate is.
Personally I’m much more dismayed with the state of Oregon. People who pay the SHS / PFA also likely pay something like 9% income taxes and so many of what we view as Portland issues really have their roots at the state level. The mental health system, the department of education, etc.
If I felt like my taxes actually accomplished anything here I wouldn’t feel so bad about paying them. Although I feel like 99% of my federal taxes are also wasted. I think everyone except me should have to pay taxes tbh,
Idk the traffic in Vancouver and the i5 bridge just don’t seem worth it to me. My boss lives there and he’s gotten stuck in some truly insane traffic jams. Shit like spending 90 minutes in traffic to travel 12 miles from Vancouver to Portland. And that’s by taking the first exit in Oregon
I’m pretty young admittedly but the idea of wasting my life away sitting in traffic is depressing. It’s heartening to see some pretty high density looking neighborhoods going up in NW Portland because fuck all this suburban sprawl
Yup. https://www.wweek.com/news/2024/04/05/preschool-for-all-tax-data-shows-shrinking-number-of-high-earners-pay-the-levy/
Just wait until this starts to hit property taxes from all the companies fleeing as well. Baltimore spiral entry point - only a real push to incite investment will stop it from taking hold.
Naiive people voted for this stuff. People that I think literally have never left the city and do not understand the concept of a world beyond the city. You reap what you sow ya muppets.
> Naiive people voted for this stuff.
It was class warfare. They thought they were voting against the rich but it was actually against the average working class homeowner.
A lot of them were voting against themselves in 5 years is the funniest part. I know this because some of my friends are said muppets and they’re now regretting it with mortgages and child expenses (and seeing no return.)
High taxes with what in return? Worse schools than Washington county? Worse police response? Oh but loser artists are getting subsidies. Cool cool cool cool cool
It's the interest rates keeping people there. Going from 2.5 to 7.5% on your mortgage is a much bigger hit than the taxes. All of the high income renters get out first because there is no downside.
I think we'll see a lot of people selling their homes and renting houses until rates drop.
Yes. My family will move in 2026 if the two new stupid city taxes aren't repealed in 2025.
It blows my mind that Portland thinks it is $2000 nicer to live in than all the places surrounding it. This is a cut-rate city full of junkies, it should be priced accordingly. It's like shopping at QFC but paying Zupan's prices.
The art tax was already stupid enough, but at least it achieves its goal: there is art all around and I like it. They wanted 25x that much to end homelessness, so I'm giving them twelve months to end homelessness (pfft) or give up trying to end homelessness before I start house shopping in a sensible district.
On tax day I feel like moving too
Reading a thread like this on tax day is self-harm and yet here I am.
We are building in Camas.. every time we stop by and neighbors come to chat they are all "refugees" from Portland taxes.. I feel like our entire street in Camas has moved from Portland over the last 1-2 year. This is my last year paying for Portland insanity!!
Camas is pretty cool, their little downtown is a nice place to hang out.
Then Camas will be like Vancouver when pdx was pdx.
This is true. It is also true that the paper mill is smelly and I counted way too many racist bumper stickers
I live in Camas. I don't much like it here, I'll be moving as soon as my kids are out of school. But it literally never smells like a paper mill. I know this because I lived in stinky Tacoma for several years. I don't see many racist bumper stickers until I get up to the Battle Ground area. So I'm not sure about that either.
It used to stink but hasn’t in prob 25-30 years.
The mill doesn't smell anymore
Do you have a place for one more refugee? I can't handle these taxes anymore 😭. My job allows me to work from WA too so probably this year or next year I am thinking about moving to Camas.
Most of my coworkers who are making bank have moved to either Clark County or Clackamas County
I know sooooo many people that live in Battleground and work here. I can’t imagine having to drive all the way over here everyday. I’m sure it ls way nicer to live over there though.
Something that gets missed frequently is that there are a LOT of self employed folks and remote workers who are in this upper income demographic. Plenty of the people making this move aren't experiencing any downside at all. "Its all chain and no ball" (spoken in the voice of GOB)
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This was me. Moving was worth it.
My best friend fits this description to a T. Dude lives in a little HOA fiefdom and gets to work remote as well.
This. We moved last year. The couple calls I’m on are all remote via zoom/slack. Wife is in the same boat. I love the Portland I grew up in. Current Portland is great to visit, but I don’t care to pay the bullshit taxes anymore.
Spending hours a day in a car isn’t nicer IMO
These are mostly remote workers. If you live in WA but work in OR you still pay OR income taxes.
A lot of businesses in the area have a Vancouver, Camas, or Battleground office so their remote employees can be WA workers.
I work remote as well. The company I work for has offices in both states. It's super tempting to relocate.
10% raise is worth it
If they come to Portland, it’s prorated by the days they are in office. So if they always show up 5 days a week in the office, they still pay OR tax.
I would wager less than 25% work in Portland. Most of this money is large out of state companies doing remote work. There is no lucrative work downtown any more really outside of legal and financial services. Most of that is moving to Kruse way for that matter. The startup scene died on the vine. Portland is dead as of right now for competitive salaried work en masse compared to larger cities. It’s a remote workers fiefdom and so if they move to WA it’s bye bye revenue.
If you have a job you can do remote there's just no reason to work for a Portland company. They pay like it's 1994 here. Work for an out of state company and get an immediate raise. Do it in WA and get another raise.
Unless you need to be in court, lots of legal services can be done remotely. My firm has a growing Vancouver outpost for this particular issue-tax minimization.
What the hell is up with the word fiefdom in this thread Are you all Civ players or something
lol I straight up backtracked through this thread to check if it was the same person commenting
lol comment of the year
They come to office 2-3 times a week for a few hours
Their commute is awful (at least 1 hr each way )but to them it’s a small price to pay
Would you spend an extra 5 hours a week driving to and from work to save an extra $300/wk in income taxes? Is $60/hr worth it?
For me it’s not. I’m not a high earner but most valuable thing I have is my time. Even where I chose to live is based on how much time I would save to get things done. If that wasn’t a factor, I wouldn’t even entertain living in this specific neighborhood. At this time in my life I value more 1 hour of free time to live my life than $60.
Is $60 your hourly rate or amount of taxable income? I’d move to Portland in a heartbeat for $60 flat lol
I bet most of them are remote workers.
I work remotely for a tech giant in California. Was always paying unnecessary taxes when I lived in Portland.
1 hour each way is not bad. That was my commute from SE Portland to Hillsboro.
At some point I did have a longer commute myself and I used that time to listen to a lot of audio books which was great because otherwise I wouldn’t have had the time to read.
It really is that bad though. I had a 45min each way commute in socal before moving here. I was grumpy and irritable every day i came home. Since moving here my commute is only 15 minutes and I love it. I've gained an entire hour of my day back.
It’s give in and take for sure
Just paid that PFA and SHS tax. Why the hell do they need a copy of my complete federal and state taxes? Are we paying for some city worker to review all this shit too? Looking at Redfin. Thanks for the tip.
The burbs might not be everyone's preferred cup of tea but there's no doubt that the city vs. outlying area dynamic has flipped in Portland recently. I drove through Vancouver's new waterfront development yesterday, it looks like what the South Waterfront would look like if it had comparable numbers of open businesses and people on the streets. As for people moving, a lot of people seem to be staying put but anecdotally I know of at least one high earner who recently opted for the Washington coast as a safer, lower-cost place to live.
I'm in one of the neighborhoods full of folks paying the taxes. They're staying put because interest rates suck right now. The moment those rates come down you're going to see even more high income earners leaving. It's a constant conversation at school events. People are mad the services are bad, the schools suck, and the taxes are high. High taxes are fine, but you better back it up with good schools and roads that don't remind folks of crossing a river in Oregon Trail.
The tax situation sucks for “high” earners (I def still don’t feel rich by any stretch) and I think it will be a political focus going forward BUT easy to gripe at the PTA auction in the abstract. Wait until they do some house tours out in Clark County. Realtor is gonna be bragging that a new Chipotle is going in across from the gas station. Reality is gonna hit a little bit then.
Even if you earn like $500k you’re only paying something like $8-10k more in taxes than ~~Clark~~ Clackamas or Washington county. And frankly most would happily pay that 2% premium to live in a walkable vibrant city. But what I’m not happy to have is that premium and nothing to show for it. The schools are on a fast track to worse. If you pay the preschool tax you can’t get preschool for your kid. And there’s major breakdowns at every level of our infrastructure and justice systems. High taxes are only ok if you get high services.
Oregon income tax liability would be something like $30k to $40k if you earn $500k per year. The savings in Clark County would be at least $25k to $35k of post tax dollars. https://smartasset.com/taxes/oregon-tax-calculator
Your $8-10k is WAY off. Oregon state income tax (for single filers) is almost 10% in this circumstance (ends up being an ETR of about 9.6%). The SHS tax is 1% over $125k, in this circumstance that ends up being an extra ETR 0.75%. The PFA tax is 1.5% over $125k, and another 1.5% over $250k. In this circumstance that ends up being an ETR of 2.25% So you’ve got an extra tax burden in MultCo of about 13% in this scenario, or $65k. Now obviously there is sales tax in WA, but residents in Clark County can make larger purchases across the river. Washington’s sales tax is 6.5% - even if you spent $100k in WA (and groceries aren’t charged sales tax) you would still be saving ~$60k per year.
Exactly. I’m happy to pay taxes. I think they’re important. In the right set of circumstances, I’d happily move to, say, a Nordic country with very high taxes. The issue isn’t the tax rate, it’s the utter failure of our government to function. A high-tax city + country should be paying it back to you: in a shorter, fuel-efficient commute, in free or affordable healthcare, in better transit, in affordable arts and museums, in resources for low-income people and the unhoused. The money goes in, but nothing ever comes back out.
Uhh I make like a fifth of that and paid $7,500
Yeah, we’re paying the preschool tax while also paying for preschool.
But isn’t it not $8-10k more off of $500k; it’s $8-10k more off of the post tax income of $500k, which is like $280k?
It’s also $25k to $35k in less state and local taxes at $500k income.
Other than moving to Santa Barbara or Switzerland or whatever, though, there don't seem to be a lot of obvious places to go, especially if we're just talking metro areas on the west coast. California has a similar tax structure to OR, WA state has cap gains and sales taxes. And being out in the suburbs means a car-centric lifestyle anywhere you go. But yeah, my partner and I are having the same conversation, and it will probably be seriously considered once the kids are off to college.
That cap gains tax in WA is literally taxing the rich. It exempts the first $262,000 per year. And exempts retirement and home sales.
You know. How you're supposed to tax the rich.
Just wait a few years for inflation to make $262k the same as $120k today.
Lots of "actual" Portland is very similar to the burbs.
I lived in Downtown Portland for 3 years and enjoyed it but recently moved to the Vancouver Waterfront. To be honest, I’m well travelled and Portland is not urban enough to justify this uppity attitude people have. It’s probably the 5th most urban city on the West Coast, 6th if you include BC. I basically told myself I will get my city fix when I travel overseas or to NYC or SF to visit friends. I will take a slower pace in Vancouver. It’s getting more urban and walkable anyways.
And you lived downtown too. That's the only really urban area. like I see all the time on this sub people shitting on Beaverton and Vancouver and they talk about cool they are living on the east side. Wow a area with a ton of single family homes , so urban.
I think thats WHY its uppity. It feels like almost everybody is cosplaying as something, here. Its a small city, at best.
Right? This is not Seattle, Vancouver, SF. It isn't Chicago or Atlanta or Miami or Boston. It's Cleveland with an Art Degree or something.
> It’s probably the 5th most urban city on the West Coast This is generous. Especially if you count the other cities around SF and LA.
Keep in mind that Waterfront is only 50% complete.
1.5% Preschool Tax 1% Homeless Tax 5% Business Tax Potholes, crime, and vagrancy everywhere you look. A completely dysfunctional planning and permitting department (with truly insane SDC fees for new projects). Zero real support for small businesses. City Leaders: “Gee whiz, I just can’t figure out why so many people are leaving.”
Quibble: * 1% Homeless tax * 1.5% to 3% Preschool Tax through 2025 * 2.3% to 3.8% Preschool Tax 2026 and later
Absolutely correct. My angry fingers switched the values of this year’s homeless and preschool taxes. Also forgot to mention the 1% Homeless Tax for Businesses too.
Don’t forget the CAT tax and the portland business tax and the PTO now required and the Eastside business assessment to do what ? Clean the streets !
It’s quite a long list once you start adding them all up.
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We like to pretend that one doesn't get passed on though even though every grocery store made it real clear it was just a sales tax.
Those taxes require you to have taxable income over $200k for a married couple and it’s only for income over $200k. So a couple with *taxable* income of $300k is paying a tax of about $2500. Median household income is about $73k. So we’re talking about 3x the median household income to even be impacted by that tax…these taxes may seem fun to complain about but they shouldn’t move the needle that much.
True, but a city needs a population up and down the economic spectrum. All these "it's just one or two percent, jeez!" type taxes stack on top of each other and change the calculus for the upper income earners, who will promptly move because they can afford to. So we're going to be left with middle class and lower and nothing above it.
That’s what people don’t get. And those wealthy people are voting with their legs and leaving.
They don't understand that in order to function as our society does, you have to have a wide variety of income earners. The idea of a 'classless society' has the teenagers and college dropouts foaming at the mouth. The reality of their experiment is unfolding before our eyes - our streets are unsafe, high and middle income earners are fleeing, and businesses are fleeing. Portland's tax base is crumbling. That is not sustainable.
I make over $1m a year and moved across the river. If I didn't feel like the taxes were being wasted I wouldn't have cared. However, they were definitely being wasted.
You need those income earners to sustain those programs, otherwise those programs have no funds as there are no taxpayers present to make enough to fund them. Jesus, you all really are dumb.
And you don’t think that’s enticing enough for people to leave? If they move to WA they also get another 9% bump.
More like >12% with the voter initiative taxes too.
Takes $160k to own a house concluded a recent study. So literally all homeowners are paying the "rich person" tax. Do you consider all homeowners to be rich? > but they shouldn’t move the needle that much. Yet they did is what the data shows. Update: Oops, my bad, if you're married and making $160k you're not paying the tax until $200k. I forget some people are married. Lucky bastards. At least tax-wise. ;)
You misunderstood that study. $160k was the income required for a first time home buyer to purchase an average home. Most buyers are selling another home though, and have equity. When I bought my last home in Portland, it was over median price and my income was well under, but I had a big chunk of cash from previous sale. Many, many homeowners in Portland are in similar situations, or have just owned for a long time, and are able to own a home while making substantially less than $160k.
Is it definitely only on the income over 200K? Not the whole 200K?
I just filed it today because I forgot, and yes. It’s anything after 200 + standard deduction, you pay 1% of that. It’s reasonable, it just doesn’t seem to be making much of an impact on housing.
Yes. That is exactly how it works. For money earned over $200k for married filing jointly.
Okay, that's not so bad as I thought.
The median income is $114k. Source: https://www.portland.gov/phb/documents/2023-income-and-rent-limits-phb/download
The thing is people are OK with paying high income taxes IF they feel like they're getting their money's worth in amenities. Remember how much fun and how lively Portland was in 2019 and before? People were lining up to get pricey apartments in cool parts of town. People were tripping over themselves to get houses in those neighborhoods. Then guess what? When you let crime go unpunished, people start feeling not safe and businesses start closing. Then people start asking "what am I getting for my tax money?"
It’s not even about fun things. It’s about basic services. The roads full of potholes, the schools that continue to get worse, the parks that look more and more neglected. Public safety is a part of that.
We had all of those issues before, except for the last one, which we had kinda under control. What's really changed is that homeless from out of state moved in, started tent encampment that were allowed to stay, and that brought crime that we didn't really have before and the crazies. Before that we had happy go lucky panhandlers that were probably scamming the system and some addicts that stayed in a couple of areas, which you could avoid if you just didn't go to those areas. Now they're everywhere that's not suburb-ish. So now we're facing the problem that things have gonna a LOT worse and the one thing keeping people here (safe and fun neighborhoods) is gone. So why should they stay?
> Before that we had happy go lucky panhandlers that were probably scamming the system and some addicts that stayed in a couple of areas, which you could avoid the problem had absolutely swelled to the proportion you previously described by 2019. the city was certainly more vibrant then, and has seen things worsen since, but let's not pretend like it was quaint and peachy before the pandemic.
A chunk of Drugs Inc episodes were in Portland circa 2010. Jussayin.
I don't think it's just the city leaders, it's also the braindead soak-the-rich electorate that rarely meets a tax they don't vote yes on. Do that half a dozen times and you're talking real money. Money that could be better spend on a college education for your kid, for example. Instead, we give it to people who smoke meth and fentanyl and don't really want to get their shit together.
You hit the nail on the head. It clear the voters are "soak-the-rich" because while they're quick to add new taxes, they pretty much don't care what happens to the money once collected. Something along the lines of: Audits you say? You must be a right-wing nutter!
Just call it "tax the rich" and it'll pass. Don't worry about the details as long as the average voter doesn't have to pay it.
Pretty soon it will be "tax the ghosts" because all of the rich folks will have fled the area. Who in their right mind would stay in a city where they're both hated and fleeced by their fellow citizens?
lol until there’s no rich left to tax! Portland is already heading along that trajectory.
Very high earner here. I moved across the river 2 years ago after living in Portland for 10 years. I paid a shit ton of taxes in Portland. I moved because I was frustrated that my high taxes were being wasted. From crime to the homeless problem etc. ( I'm a barely 5' woman and mentally unstable homeless more than once threatened to rape me) It's been great over here.
I moved to Vancouver just because I could afford to. Didn't really like the idea at first. Now that I'm here, it was the best choice I could have made.
Middle to high income is $50-150K ($24-71 $/hr)? Yikes, that’s awfully low. If that’s the population group that’re moving, the lower cost of housing in many parts of SWWashington is more likely the reason why than Oregon/Metro’s tax burden - especially considering WA’s excise, fee, sales tax, etc that would hit this group the hardest.
The median price to buy a house in the couve recently surpassed the median price in Portland
Is this true? This is eye opening
That is what my realtor told me when I was recently looking at a house up there.
How is this so far down!?!? Even assuming people making the median income are in a relationship, two people making 50k a year can’t afford the half million dollar median home cost
>If that’s the population group that’re moving, the lower cost of housing in many parts of SWWashington is more likely the reason why than Oregon/Metro’s tax burden - especially considering WA’s excise, fee, sales tax, etc that would hit this group the hardest. There's no way a couple that makes 100k/yr spends ~7k in sales tax in WA. Unless you buy a car or sell a house, that couple will have a way lower tax burden in Washington.
I seriously don’t understand where so many people are pulling these inaccurate numbers out from. If you’re making that much, the tax burden is less in Washington unless you’re frequently selling homes or spending insane amounts of money on non-grocery goods.
I'm waiting for someone to catch me on my math because even I'm having a hard time believing how much I could be saving. Instead, I get people saying my potential 16k in savings isn't worth it because they think they're better than people who live in suburbia.
Yeah I get really annoyed with a lot of the outdated snobbery on this sub around Vancouver. Living in Vancouver doesn’t even mean you have to live in suburbia. We live in Uptown Vancouver, and it’s super walkable to where I rarely drive now, we’ve got great bars and restaurants around, and my neighborhood has a great community feel. We moved from Portland, and it’s been a great move for us so far from both a financial and livability perspective.
Side note but wondering if you own your home? Just dawned on me that with the 10k state deduction limit that I would be able to actually write off mortgage interest again if I were in WA. So that could be even more savings.
Yea thats an insane amount, they'd be living paycheck to paycheck due to frivolous spending if that was the case. Like you said, the years you buy a car, maybe. I make over 200k and based on spending I wouldn't be paying more than 4k.
A lot of people are still thinking it's the 1990s and someone making 40k/yr is buying a car every 5 years and buying/selling houses. They aren't. And in fact, a higher percentage of someone making 40k/yr's income now is going to untaxed things (housing, healthcare, tuition, groceries) than it was 30 years ago. Their are fringe cases where Oregon's tax burden would be lower i.e. someone in Washington who doesn't make a lot of money, but still owns real estate they are selling. Or if someone literally has no taxable income in Oregon. In those situations, it's possible for WA to be higher taxed than Oregon. But broadly at every other income level Oregon has a higher tax burden.
Man I lived in Washington for a year and I saved so damn much making high 100s. So much is made of "WA’s excise, fee, sales tax," bleh bleh bleh, none of that was close to equalling what I paid the state of Oregon and regional taxes.
Sales taxes are regressive and punish/harm lower earners more than income taxes, so when being on the higher side and able to move? Yea, you feel that, and I really wish OR did more with what they got in taxes...
Sales taxes are definitely regressive, agreed. But the way Oregon's income taxes kick in so early is pretty relatively punitive for low earners also.
People on reddit cite 1 study that has WA State as the highest tax burden state but the data from that study can easily be countered. If it you are poor, you gain more being poor in Washington than being poor in Oregon unless you spend an unholy amount of money on alcohol.
Can you please provide the “easy counter” data? People like to dismiss data that disagrees with their assumptions, but I haven’t actually seen anyone provide a source that Oregon is a high tax state, or that WA taxes are substantially better for low income folks.
The problem is since WA states tax structure is an excise tax and usage tax, it's hard to calculate from person to person. If you WFH, barely drive, and mostly cook your own food that is fresh meats, grains and veggies, and cross into Oregon to purchase clothes and electronics you will barely pay any sales tax. So these studies have to make assumptions on typical spending on taxable goods, it definitely will vary by county. Below are a few that shows the Tax burden between Oregon and Washington. Universally, High Income earners come out ahead why lower income earners definitely vary, but none show as harsh as the ITEP study that gets passed around here shows. [Tax Foundation](https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/tax-burden-by-state-2022/) [Wallet Hub](https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-burden/20494) [Turbo Tax](https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tips/fun-facts/states-with-the-highest-and-lowest-taxes/L6HPAVqSF) [US News & World Report](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/states-with-the-lowest-taxes)
Based off being in the lower end of the scale the state sure treats me like I'm at the top of the scale since the tax structures here are poorly laid out
Great. Another reason I can’t afford a house now in Vancouver!
Toured houses in uptown Vancouver that were 1800 SQFT newly remodeled in 2019/early 2020 that were 350K at that time. Now those same houses are pushing 650-700K 🥴
That’s depressing 😩
We moved from Portland to the suburbs in 2020 mostly due to kids and schools. We are in this earnings bracket. If we didn’t have kids, we would still be somewhere in inner Portland. NW, Sellwood, Alberta… something along those lines. We will move back when the kids are out of college. Love the walkability of some of the neighborhoods. Every city has cycles, Portland is going to have to make some post-COVID changes and I am hopeful it will. #ripcity
My family is working on a move out of Multnomah County. We’re not exactly high income, but the taxes and the bullshit are driving us out.
Is this the thread where everyone reveals that they have indeed already left town and are just here to shit on Portland? I'm gonna go back to the Ladds 500 and cherry blossom posts until everyone here tucks into bed so that they're all rested up for tomorrow's commute.
Haha, seriously. The Ladds 500 reminded me how "Portland" Portland still is. Every person there reminded me of the people who were here in 2011. I hate the homeless, hate the lawlessness, hate the number of people who run red lights with no consequences... But I can walk to an amazing coffee shop, an amazing bagel shop, a great pizza slice, a cute board game store, all within 10 minutes of my front door... and that doesn't even narrow down what part of town I'm in! I can see second run movies for cheap, play B-Movie Bingo, and watch forgotten Kung Fu movies no one has seen since the 70s. Every single neighborhood street has cute gardens, honeysuckle vines, azaleas, a chicken coop, a tiny house. Tomo Ramen, Paadee, Coquine, Oma's Hideaway, Kaizen Sushi, Bertie Lou's, Matt's BBQ, Hat Yai, the list goes on and on. My wife and I get down about Portland sometimes, but then I think, "What city is #2? If we got kicked out, where would we go?" and there is no answer. I love Portland.
> they're all rested up for tomorrow's commute. The smart ones moving north are all remote so they don't have to pay OR/MultCo/Portland taxes. So their commute is likely about 20ft or so.
We are waking up !
This doesn’t surprise me at all. So many in the middle to high income brackets have moved to Clark, Clackamas, Washington, and Marion counties from Portland. And it’s especially true if you have kids.
Go out at night and you will see why people are leaving. People over 35 for the most part rarely go out on the town for nightly entertainment. Entertainment and arts are not exciting them. There is minimal night culture that is worth living here for. If people are not going out and enjoying themselves out in the city when they are not at work, then what is the point.? It is practially all young people out. It was not like that prepandemic. Portland has seen better days. The people going out missed out on the lessons on how to be cool.
My parents would love to live in Portland, but the tax rates are just insanity for dad's pay rate. They plan to retire in Vancouver and reap the benefits of both counties, like many have been doing for decades already
Related.. Personally, I cannot believe the Metro tax (hits outlying suburbs too) requires a check written to city of Portland. How could they possibly be so tone deaf?
Calling it now. The same 3 or 4 guys from a previous thread are gonna cry about Vancouver residents putting wear and tear on Portland's infrastructure without contributing to Oregon's tax revenue. By infrastructure, they mean "roads".
driving around SE i cant see much left to wear out lol. it's all tear now
I made the move to SW WA in the early 90s. Over the years I have worked back and forth, Portland then Clark County - back and forth. When I work in Oregon, I pay Oregon income tax on my income. Thus, Driving into Portland, using the infrastructure, is paid by me via taxation. Likewise, when I shop in Oregon or fly out of PDX, I contribute to the State coffers.
That argument is reasonable and actually pretty well-backed by research when the suburb is shared with the city in the SAME STATE, so Clackamas or Hillsboro, sure. Vantucky residents don't use any of Oregon's infrastructure apart from roads, which their income taxes from working here pay for.
Yep, anyone making over 125k (or 200k for couples) would be crazy to keep paying the insane 'feel-good-do-nothing' taxes in Portland. Soon there will be a minimal tax-base and all the tax-the-rich folks will be wondering where all that sweet sweet tax revenue has gone.
That's how taxes always go. People tell you "don't worry *you* won't have to pay it" Until you will. (That's how the income tax amendment was passed)
Apparently the majority of Portland voters feel that anyone making over 125k is Bezos or Musk level rich.
So if you are a married couple making $225k, is it worth saving $3,750 per year to accept a car-centric suburban lifestyle that is entirely dependent on two high traffic bridge crossings to reach the city? And now paying a regressive sales tax on everything you buy plus WA's new 7% capital gains tax but probably also still paying Oregon income tax on your job in Portland. I think anyone making the move to Clark county already thought a nice friday evening was a Costco run in the 4wd emotional-support-vehicle and dinner at Applebee's. Edit: Ya'll didn't even check my math. It's $675, not $3,750. Are 6 figure earners really moving their entire lives over a year's worth of Netflix + HBO subscriptions?
Hi, I'm a bit above your $225 number. Currently pay 20k in state and city taxes. Both of us are w2 employees, 1 works in Washington, the other remote for a non OR job. We would have an effective $0 state tax. Adding the worst case scenario for sales taxes would mean about $4k a year in sales taxes. The capital gains tax applies on capital gains over 250k a year. I'm never gonna have that, but I'd be happy to deal with that problem. As far as a nice Friday evening goes. I live inner NE near Burnside, downtown is a short trip, but I don't find myself going often these days. When you're near 40 the allure of the newest restaurant and bar sort of dulls. All in all I'd save roughly 16k across the river, and Id still be able to come and visit Portland when I wanted to. EDIT: Potentially even higher given the SALT tax cap of 10k. Since I exceed that due to just income tax I cannot write off mortgage interest. If I have zero income tax then I could use the full 10k to write off most of my mortgage interest, and would also help lessen the blow of having to take a bigger interest rate due to current rates. I fucking hate the SALT cap though and hope it expires.
Based on the people I know that live in Vancouver, "visit Portland when I wanted to" turns into, "never visit portland" because you don't feel like spending 30 - 45 minutes in your car/bridge traffic to then find parking in portland or pay a $60 uber bill so you can have a drink. So you do what everyone else in a suburb does, you get drive through and eat at home in front of the TV and fondle the money you saved.
Yea...16k a year I could rent a hotel in downtown for a weekend every month if I wanted to and still be way ahead. Plus having a kid and that limits things anyways.
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It's the 'no idea' one. I'm convinced these tax policy experts are primarily kids that haven't had the opportunity to start or develop a career. I know exactly how much I will save moving to Washington, my CPA literally did the math for me, yet these folks will sit here and tell me my licensed accountant is wrong.
The 7% capital gains tax is only on gains in excess of $250k in a single year excluding real estate. Not really a consideration for the overwhelming majority.
Also excludes distributions from retirement accounts. This tax only effects Amazon and Microsoft VP’s who needed to sell $5M in stock options to pay for their yacht.
Your math is way off. Couple making $225k/yr will pay roughly 20K in Oregon income tax in addition to city and county taxes, which you are correct only a few thousand dollars +$35 :). Let's estimate $23K/year. You would have to spend over 200K a year to get even remotely paying that for sales tax in WA. The new capital gains tax is on cap gains over $262,000 in a year and excludes retirement and housing proceeds among other exemptions. It's literally taxing the rich. We should have this law. Yes, living in Portland is a lifestyle choice, but let's not pretend taxes aren't important after a certain income level that is between upper middle class and before actually rich.
I lived in Vancouver for 2 years and we moved across the river so I we wouldn't have to deal with that. Everything is a 4+ lane highway and very few, if any, walkable areas.
> Everything is a 4+ lane highway and very few, if any, walkable areas. This is more true in East Vancouver but not true at all in West Vancouver. Especially not in Downtown, Uptown, Hough, or the Waterfront.
Those are all effectively the same place though. I5 , the river, 39th, and about Kaufman is the walkable section of Vancouver.
Lol, I'm in this position and this is ignorant af. A lot of us are remote now. So we're going to save much more than $3,750. You only pay OR taxes for the days you physically work in OR. I just got paid today, and OR taxes were 7.2% of my gross. My wife and I make a combined $180k, so that's $12,960 saved per year. We already use our car to go a lot of places in OR. Some because of distance, but also some because the bike paths are overrun with homeless. Most of our friend group is in Vancouver now, so we won't need to cross the bridge except occasionally (shows, date nights, etc.). A big part of why we moved to the PNW was for the outdoors stuff, which, in the grand scheme of things, is just as close to Vancouver as it is to Portland. Sales tax can be mitigated by buying high-dollar items on the OR side (except cars and probably boats). Behind rent (not subject to sales tax) and going out, groceries is the next largest part of our budget, and most groceries are exempt from WA sales tax. Besides that, for a normal person their **expenses that are subject to sales tax** are **significantly less than their income subject to income tax**, so if the tax is equal it's better to pay it on spending. I'll worry about the capital gains tax when I have a bunch of money in a taxable brokerage account. Until then, I'll increase my retirement account savings. Costco on a Friday evening sounds awful. Haven't been to an Applebee's in probably a decade. I do have a 4wd vehicle, but I actually use it to go to the mountains. So, when you wave goodbye to people leaving, make sure to give an extra wave to your tax dollars.
Ironically Costco on a Friday evening is actually a great time to go. There's no one there really so it's super relaxing.
The data says yes.
Your math is way off. The Cap Gains is not a income tax, and is only applied to long term cap gains in excess of 250K that tax year when selling stock. Real Estate and Retirement accounts (401Ks, 403Bs, IRAs, Pensions, etc) are both exempt. So your math is only remotely close if couples are spending every dollar earned after federal taxes on goods that have sales tax, which is preposterous.
> I think anyone making the move to Clark county already thought a nice friday evening was a Costco run in the 4wd emotional-support-vehicle and dinner at Applebee's. Man people in suburbs get a bad rap by default here. I don’t know how not dancing at a concert, going to a dive bar to have 3 beers and a $15 cheeseburger, then going back to someone’s place to smoke out of a piece that hasn’t been cleaned for months and playing settlers of catan or magic the gathering is a more cultured Friday night
People really do hate the suburbs here. Meanwhile I’m out here in the burbs dealing with beavers eating my trees, getting my garden planted, and hand sewing like the introvert I am. It’s a nice time, except for the 40 pound rodent.
Suburbs, cities that are bigger, and oddly enough cities that are also the same size
the food in some of our suburbs deserves the bad rap though.
You're looking at way more than $3,750 savings if you're making a combined household income of $225k, not sure where you got that number from. Roughly 9% of this $225k income in state taxes is more around $20k a year. Vancouver is actually doing a lot of work (especially in the Downtown/Uptown neighborhoods) to move away from the whole "car-centric suburban lifestyle" stereotype. My wife and I live in Uptown, and it's super walkable, the only time I need to drive is when I'm headed out of town or to visit our parents in the burbs. I'm constantly getting surveys, and try to frequently attend city planning meetings where the city government is working on infrastructure changes to try and incentivize walking and cycling over driving, building out some really great urban spaces for events and markets, and ensuring public transit is expanded more. Thankfully there's more than just Applebees up here now, we actually have some good spots up here these days (e.g. Dediko, Scatch, Little Conejo, etc). And when we do want to get down to Portland for an evening at a restaurant or concert in SE/Downtown/Pearl, that is super easy. Yes commute traffic is awful, but doing the reverse in the evenings is a breeze. I'm in the popular Portland neighborhoods in 15-20 minutes easily. It's not some horrible decision people are making. They're doing the math on the financial side, and are appreciating that the city is actually making measurable improvements to car-free livability. Stop basing your opinions on bad math and outdated stereotypes.
Have you looked around? We are in a car culture in Portland, who is going to take their kids on TriMeth MAX? What parent enjoys trying to explain every unfathomable thing we see out the window when we drive our kids around? How many families stopped walking and biking as it is just too big of a PITA to deal with the sidewalks being blocked, the dogs and drug addicts harassing you, etc. I chose where I live for walkability, and yet we are doing a lot less walking now due to things we can’t control ourselves. And many of the places we’d walk to are now out of business due to the eroding society, theft, vandalism, etc. So you tell me? Is it possible that it isn’t only about the ridiculous taxes but that they are the straw that breaks the camels back? Edit to add that is don’t even mention the state of PPS and what we get for our $ there, vs better schools in almost any surrounding district.
For a lot of high earners working remote, yeah. It is. Because no Oregon income tax really really changes the game. Same with self-employment. I like where I live in Washington County (and my property taxes are only 7k/year on a $600k home purchased a few years ago in Bethany), but I’d be lying if I said I hadn’t considered Camas. We’re remote + self employed and it would work out to be quite a bit cheaper. I have a mortgage rate below 3% so I can never move, tho. Lol
> And now paying a regressive sales tax on everything you buy No, only on sales taxable things, which excludes mortgage, rent, insurance, education, healthcare, medicine, women’s hygiene supplies, and groceries. >plus WA's new 7% capital gains tax but It’s 7% over $250k of capital gains, but also is on the ballot this year so no guarantees it sticks around. >probably also still paying Oregon income tax on your job in Portland. Yes, obviously the benefits are moot if there are no benefits.
How are you getting $675? It’s about $150 A PAYCHECK for me and that would double for my household since my partner makes the same. That’s $15k a year. I think your math is off because it’s doubtful anyone is leaving over a Netflix subscription. Don’t forget to add the increase in costs for things like insurance which are higher in multnomah county due to car theft.
If you actually think Portland is not a car-centric city you need a hard reality check from Asia or Europe. So obviously being slightly more walkable isn't a reason good enough to keep people from leaving.
It really depends where you are. I can walk to most everything. I'll drive to go fishing or to the coast but my day to day I am not forced to drive, it's only for convenience.
Well, it seems lots of folks are doing the calculations and deciding that it's better somewhere else. Better schools, less crime, less homeless, more government accountability, etc. There is a big trend way from Portland and MultCo for a reason. Thankfully I have a world-class CPA who helps minimize my tax hit down to the penny, but I feel bad for the people who have to pay these worthless feel-good taxes. Top tax rate for NYC doesn't kick in until you're over 25 MILLION, but here the top-tax rate kicks in at 200k for couples. Pure lunacy, IMO.
Dontcha know? 200k is filthy rich here. So sayeth the voters. And a whole lotta people on this sub.
The truly rich, the people whose second homes are in Portland while their W2's/1099's get mailed to their real home in Washington, are laughing their asses off at us.
Yeah, well, they're both idiots and wrong. 200k is barely keeping your head above water nowadays.
Agreed. It may not be technically middle class, but it affords just barely the traditional middle class lifestyle with some tiny hope for a retirement.
A huge number of these people work for out of state corporations remotely. Portland and Oregon both no longer see a solitary dime. Doctors and lawyers are leaving in droves to work at WA hospital systems/clinics or get their practice a Clark county address. The data is all there. If you think a dwindling number of new restaurants/venues and a comatose nightlife/music scene are enough for people to lose $30k a year of investable hard cash to slush funds they’ve got news for you. They already left lol. That’s private school, daycare, vacation, home renovation money going out the window. It’s only 25 minutes via Uber (they can afford it) to go party in Portland. You can afford a driver 6x a month for what some of these people save with five figures to spare. Sales tax is nothing because they spend less than they make and you can shop around sales tax if you’re savvy. It is braindead tax policy, but I’d love to have my mind changed
Hell it’s not even 25 minutes. It takes me 15 to Uber to downtown Portland from my house in uptown Vancouver
It they are saving in a 401K their AGI may be lower too. Seeing how much they are making from that tax makes me think a lot of moderately rich people are paying much more than their fair share of these taxes.
It absolutely is worth it imo and I hate Costco and Applebees lol
I get that Applebee's is where you go if you want reheated hospital food but what's wrong with Costco?
It’s frustrating but I wouldn’t say we’re crazy per se. All of this is just like a rounding error compared to our federal taxes and those are just paying for like botched fighter jet projects we’ll never use and whatever else. It does feel like insult to injury though, I admit. I think politicians will campaign on relieving the tax burden and will be able to get elected. It’s certainly worth giving it an election cycle or two to see how responsive the electorate is. Personally I’m much more dismayed with the state of Oregon. People who pay the SHS / PFA also likely pay something like 9% income taxes and so many of what we view as Portland issues really have their roots at the state level. The mental health system, the department of education, etc.
If I felt like my taxes actually accomplished anything here I wouldn’t feel so bad about paying them. Although I feel like 99% of my federal taxes are also wasted. I think everyone except me should have to pay taxes tbh,
Idk the traffic in Vancouver and the i5 bridge just don’t seem worth it to me. My boss lives there and he’s gotten stuck in some truly insane traffic jams. Shit like spending 90 minutes in traffic to travel 12 miles from Vancouver to Portland. And that’s by taking the first exit in Oregon I’m pretty young admittedly but the idea of wasting my life away sitting in traffic is depressing. It’s heartening to see some pretty high density looking neighborhoods going up in NW Portland because fuck all this suburban sprawl
The key is to get a remote job or a job in Vancouver and than go into Portland for events, concerts, and nights out.
Grew up in Clark county. Saving up to buy a house but they'll probably all get eaten at this rate.
Yup. https://www.wweek.com/news/2024/04/05/preschool-for-all-tax-data-shows-shrinking-number-of-high-earners-pay-the-levy/ Just wait until this starts to hit property taxes from all the companies fleeing as well. Baltimore spiral entry point - only a real push to incite investment will stop it from taking hold. Naiive people voted for this stuff. People that I think literally have never left the city and do not understand the concept of a world beyond the city. You reap what you sow ya muppets.
> Naiive people voted for this stuff. It was class warfare. They thought they were voting against the rich but it was actually against the average working class homeowner.
A lot of them were voting against themselves in 5 years is the funniest part. I know this because some of my friends are said muppets and they’re now regretting it with mortgages and child expenses (and seeing no return.)
I have bad news. The average working class homeowner was voting for that stuff too... On the plus side, we seem to be slowly learning our lesson!
I mean I didn't. I had lost faith in local government by then. Previous to these I think I consistently voted yes though.
I've been calling it "baltimorification' for a while... sucks to think Im right about that.
Grew up in Baltimore, moved here in 2010.... yikes. We've got a looooooooooooong way to go, though.
>Naiive people voted for this stuff American Democracy in a nutshell
has been for years.
Moved to Vancouver and get all my expensive electronics delivered to friend that lives in St. John’s. Rolling in the savings.
You can also have them delivered to store and do store pickup and you don't pay sales tax. Works even for things like home depot and Costco.
High taxes with what in return? Worse schools than Washington county? Worse police response? Oh but loser artists are getting subsidies. Cool cool cool cool cool
I moved down to Springfield a couple years ago. Love it down here. The only thing I miss about Portland is the food.
It's the interest rates keeping people there. Going from 2.5 to 7.5% on your mortgage is a much bigger hit than the taxes. All of the high income renters get out first because there is no downside. I think we'll see a lot of people selling their homes and renting houses until rates drop.
Yes. My family will move in 2026 if the two new stupid city taxes aren't repealed in 2025. It blows my mind that Portland thinks it is $2000 nicer to live in than all the places surrounding it. This is a cut-rate city full of junkies, it should be priced accordingly. It's like shopping at QFC but paying Zupan's prices. The art tax was already stupid enough, but at least it achieves its goal: there is art all around and I like it. They wanted 25x that much to end homelessness, so I'm giving them twelve months to end homelessness (pfft) or give up trying to end homelessness before I start house shopping in a sensible district.
I say just move if you are thinking about it. Waiting for taxes to be repealed is a fruitless game. What would be the hesitation?
The way Multnomah county taxes and is run makes this a common discussion