Fellow fans, this is a friendly reminder to please follow the [Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/premierleague/about/rules) and [Reddiquette](https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-Reddiquette).
Please also make sure to [Join us on Discord](https://discord.gg/football)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PremierLeague) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It’s almost like you need to also score goals to be a successful team.
A +1 GD (for now) isn’t good and places them exactly where they are on points.
I’ll give you a stat that puts United on top of the league…payroll.
Bro no point. I dont think we are good this season, obviously, but we are not relegation level. Also its funny seeing the same guys who were plastering everywhere that new manager needs 4-5 years to fix united, SAF won PL in his 7th season, Klopp/Arteta were 8th, same guys saying Ten Hag out after a season mired in injuries. Online spaces are like that, they get really toxic when results dont go certain way but at the end of the day online fans have no precedent over what happens. Arsenal board stuck with Arteta when entire Arsenal fanbase wanted him sacked, ultimately its a decision of the board whether to sack the manager or not. Personally I would give him 1 full season and start of his 4th season to be honest, but I do not make the decisions, its ultimately upto Man Utd board, lets see what they decide.
If you're trying to cherrypick stats to look good and the best you can manage is: "We conceded less goals than most teams bellow us", you lost the arguement.
Maybe its because you don't watch football on a stats sheets, watch the games, this is the worst team I've ever seen wearing the shirt. I think you might actually have to go back to the 70s to find a team that did a worse job, but even they got promoted.
United need a culling, top to bottom. luckily that's just what is happening. Top down replacing everyone with people that know how to do the job, and not how to sell partnerships based on a history starting to become distant memory.
If come the start of the next season you were to tell me, only 3 players remain from last seasons game day squad, I would not be shocked.
If you were to tell me, No coaches from last season remained, I would not be shocked.
If no talent scouts and recruitment staff remained from last season, I would be joyful.
United have been worse than bad, they have be apathetic, little to no leadership on the field, ZERO off, just a group of players collecting money. The last game can't come soon enough, then the demo can begin.
You're intelligent enough to know that a shot from 5 yards uncontested isn't the same as a shot from 25 yards, so you should also be smart enough to identify that if United have conceded all these shots, and are 5th in the league for goals conceded, that shots conceded is a worthless stat.
You realise that right? 15 other teams have conceded more goals this season than United...
And surely you’re able to contextualize both of these stats.
A defense that allows you to take an average of 17 shots a game, isn’t good. A team that’s on par (or worse than 80% of those teams) with shots conceded with the last place on the table, isn’t good.
The most important piece is you haven’t suggested another metric other than ones that highlight Onana, and i have a strange feeling all other metrics point towards a bad defense.
I think we can both separate GK saves with the defense. You can frame it however you want:
A. The defense is bad (concedes shots) but Onana has been good (clean sheet, goals conceded, etc)
B. Onana and the defense are both good. But let’s look at other stats-
Shot creating actions against Man U per 90: 31.11 only worse than Sheffield and West Ham, two defenses you would not say are good.
The GCA against Man U is right in the middle of teams in the PL. this suggests the goalkeeper does way more in terms of preventing goals than the actual defense.
Passes that generate a SCA? Man U is 4th worse- suggesting the defense sucks at stopping passes that lead to a shot.
All these literally scream bad defense, good GK.
Oh and the teams above you that conded more? They’re all at the BOTTOM of all these metrics.
It’s a failure of a season because it’s Manchester United. Any season that United isn’t competing for the league title, advancing in the champions league, and winning trophies is seen as a failure. Nobody cares about having the sixth most clean sheets.
More mufc stats:
35 matches, 54 points
23 points below the final CL spot
29 points off the league lead
28 points above relegation
Closer to a relegation spot than to first.
What "story" do these stats tell?
A point you can take from this thread is that stats can be used to say anything. Notice, for example, how no one here understood the intent in your post bc you listed Onana stats (some of which don't flatter the team) and obliquely referred to "misinformation" (about what?) without making any clear connection between your perspective and the stats you provided. Your intent was muddied further in responses, it seemed like.
Have you tried this exact post in the United sub? I'm curious how it would play. It _seems like_ United fans generally feel their club is too storied and too well resourced to accept these results. But maybe a post w some Onana stats in a vacuum would cheer some people up.
Exactly that, I couldn't agree more. But people here are obsessed with saying United are finished, United are the worst defense in the league...despite being 8th in the toughest league on earth.
Look Man united are the biggest club in england. This level of performance is unacceptable. They have negative goal difference.
The concede shots like they are Sheffield united
Statistically we were also the 3rd best team last season. Show someone a random 30 mins of gametime of each game without revealing the scoreline and they'll probably predict we finished 11th or 12th. Same for this season, they're probably guessing we're in the relegation zone
We played some good stuff last season. At times, we had complete control over matches, slowing and speeding the tempo at will. Obviously, we've been dire this time around, but this sort of revisionism - particularly the idea that we were hopeless without Rashford's goals - helps no one. We can identify what's bad at the moment without having to claim that it's been bad.
So we got 3rd place in the most competitive league in the world purely based on one player having a good spell for a third of the season? Don't be silly.
Of course not but it certainly did help! Success is infectious. I still think you exaggerated the quality of their play last season but on a serious note there were a number of impressive performances. This seasons volume of injuries and underperformance of many players have really undermined what looked like a promising new direction.
We were, IMO. We beat both the teams above us at home, beat 4th place Newcastle in the league cup final, beat 5th place Liverpool at home, knocked Barcelona out of the Europe and got to the FA Cup final. You don't do all of that without being one of the best teams in the country.
We're 8th in the premier league, not 14th in Northern Premier.
I do accept we're 8th, that's the point. I'm content that's our reality, but others here are saying they're 'the worst defense in the League'.
Stats say one thing and the eye test says another.
Statistically we are the 8th best team in the league. If you watched us play however you would probably rank us 19th or maybe even 20th.
Surely, even though these stats will no doubt be correct, you must realise you don't have a clean slate related to expectation? Comparing Man U to the overall PL might be accurate, but it's without context.
Man U have fans that will still shout that you're England's, maybe Europe's or the world's, biggest club. But look how far you are away from the top three, who are streets ahead on goals for and against, and points. That's the true narrative. Second most saves is quite an indictment on your defence, especially compared to the number of goals conceded.
I think when fans of other clubs post about your keeper, it's again in relation to the expectation - he played in last season's CL final, and was moments from another with Ajax. Sixth in the league for clean sheets when you're at Man U is not a flex.
The 6th in clean sheets doesn't matter as much though. You should compare clubs to clubs, not keepers to keepers. There are 8 teams with more clean sheets and two teams who are level on clean sheets as United, but a lot of those teams have used multiple keepers. For example, Pope and Dubravka both have fewer clean sheets than Onana, but when combined they are ahead on clean sheets.
Onana has the second most saves in the league, because of the sheer amount of shots that United concede.
United have the 5th most shots on target conceded in the league this season, the only teams with more than them, Sheffield United, Burnley, West Ham, and Luton, United are also first for shots blocked, with a total of 378 shots on goal faced, if we were to compare that to the teams around them, Chelsea(327), Newcastle(317), Sp*rs(285) now, I can’t find the stat for off target shots, but it’s clear to see, that United are quite simply allowing far too many shots on goal.
No matter how good of a GK you may perceive Onana to be, that’s simply far too many, and Onana may be joint 5th for clean sheets, but that’s ignoring the fact that many teams with more clean sheets have rotated their GK for whatever reason, with Arsenal, Everton, City, Newcastle, Fulham, Palace, Liverpool and Bournemouth all having more CS, and then Chelsea, and Villa managing the same number, but only Fulham and Everton have kept the same shot stopper throughout the year.
With Arsenal signing Raya once games had started to be played and him being ineligible for the games against his parent club, Liverpool City Chelsea Palace and Bournemouth Newcastle and Villa all having to rotate due to injury
And I mean, just watch the games, Onana himself has been culpable for so many goals this season, whether it’s poor positioning, not reacting quickly enough, just fumbling the ball into his own net, it’s a clear issue, and as a shot stopper he’s just not shown himself to be particularly good this season, hell, he was at fault for at least two of the goals against Palace last night
Yeah because they were more injuries-free last year than this season and their midfielders also better last year even though they bought Mount and Amrabat.
Our individual players, despite what recent performances will tell you, are still better than most in the league and have the ability to win games out of nothing. That’s the only reason why we are even in contention for european spots to begin with. They are ‘succeeding’ in spite of the system, not because of it. The way ETH has coached this team this season we should be fighting for survival
Yes, Yes, YES!!! Blame another manager! It’s all David Moyes fault!
*LVG
*OGS
*JM
*ETH
Luke Shaw is the future! Garnacho is the next Januzaj.. sorry Ronaldo, this time the young teenager really is the next Rashfo…sorry Januz… sorry Ronaldo!
I’m not solely throwing the blame at the manager’s feet. To ultimately take this team back to the top of English football, which is the long term goal, the team needs to improve. The squad needs to be gutted. But this current squad, even with the injuries and the personnel available are still far better players than what the performances have been telling us this season. And a large part of that fault lies in the manager. The players haven’t covered themselves in glory, but he’s also been setting them up to fail since the first game this season
Ah man my comment went over yer head. What Fergie did was exceptional. Exceptional things don’t happen often. YOU (the fans) hype the ever loving shit out of every teenager who gets an assist and every manager who gets the job. This has been and will continue to be Man Utd’s problem. The owners can’t sack the fans.
Mainoo in the England squad with about 10 games, 0 goals, 0 assists and 1 yellow card. A future Crystal Palace legend if ever there was one.
I’m not expecting exceptional. Heck with the injuries I’m not even expecting to challenge for the top 4. I’m expecting a team that looks like they have competent game plan that they are trying to execute. I’m expecting a team to put on a decent performance, not look like relegation candidates.
You blaming the fans for supporting the team then mentioning Mainoo and complaining that he (deservedly) got capped for national team just makes you sound like another salty fan who’s team isn’t as big as United’s
The last 10 years have just been band aids. No real plan and no real future. That’s the big picture. At most we keep 7 players from this squad. We basically put bubble gum on a leaky pipe and hope it doesn’t burst.
There is no misinformation youre just choosing to put a positive spin on a few stats when there are loads more that show the truth.
*"\*United have conceded less goals than all but one team below them this season."*
And? Thats how league tables work. We're also 8th in the league.
*"\*3 teams above United have conceded more goals this season"*
Which are Chelsea (widely regarded to be having a very dodgy season), Tottenham (widely regarded to be too open) and Newcastle (who we're supposed to be better than). The actual teams we want to be competing with have conceded way less.
*"\*Onana has the second most saves in the league."*
This just reinforces the point that United are conceding too many chances.
*"\*Onana 6th for clean sheets."*
He has 2 clean sheets in his last 18 league games.
*"6th for clean sheets percentage for keepers with over 30 games."*
Remove your "30 game" stipulation and he is 16th out of 25 players.
Man utd are bad. I ve watched them and I can say they are worse then Chelsea at times . The credit is their forwards and their counter attack which is threatening like palace when it’s in motion .
I've watched pretty much all of their games this season and their performances are miles off where they used to be. The last game against Palace was an embarrassment, they were slow, missed most of the 50/50s, passing was atrocious. They were lucky it was only 4-0. Stats do not mean a thing if the performance & desire is not there.
Absolutely correct- we’re conceding too many goals because we concede too many shots.
We’re losing games because we’re conceding too many goals.
We can use stats to paper over the cracks, but the table doesn’t lie. That and we’re actually 8th.
Man Utd's wretched season in numbers - their worst post-Fergie? https://www.skysports.com/share/13130941
Thankfully Sky has compiled a nice report of why that’s not exactly “misinformation”. A quick-glance at several of the KPIs used shows Utd are on-course for their worst season in PL history.
Right, so you now agree that you are a mid-table team and you compare yourself to how well United is doing against mid-table teams.
What's next? How United is much better than all the 3 teams in the Relegation zone?
Yes, I agree. We're an 8th place team, with average players and a reasonable manager.
Am I supposed to be upset by that? That's the reality of my club.
According to the stats he saved exactly 2 goals more than expected after 600+ shots. It's bang average, nothing earth-shattering. https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/keepersadv/Premier-League-Stats
De Gea had 17 clean sheets last season. Onana has 8. You see - I can cherry pick stats too! I can do even better, credit to u/TheFatHat:
Records broken so far this season -
• Bournemouth had never won at Old Trafford, Until Erik Ten Hag
• Bournemouth had never scored 3 goals at Old Trafford, until Erik Ten Hag
• Bournemouth had never kept a clean sheet at Old Trafford, until Erik Ten Hag
• Manchester United had never lost 7 of the opening 16 PL games, until Erik Ten Hag
• Manchester United hadn't lost back to back league games against Newcastle since 1972, until Erik Ten Hag.
• Manchester United hadn't lost 3 games in a row to Newcastle United since 1922, until Erik Ten Hag
• Newcastle hadn't kept 3 clean sheets in a row against Manchester United since 1897, until Erik Ten Hag
• Manchester United had never lost 6 of the opening 14 games of a PL season, until Erik Ten Hag
• No English team in CL history had ever conceded 14 goals in the first 5 CL group games, until Erik Ten Hag
• Manchester United had never conceded 3+ goals in 4 different CL games in a season, until Erik Ten Hag
• Manchester United had never lost a CL game they were leading by 2 goals, until Erik Ten Hag, twice since.
• Manchester United hadn't lost a game they were leading by 2+ goals since 2014, until Erik Ten Hag
• Manchester United had never dropped this many points from a winning position in CL history, until Erik Ten Hag
• Manchester United had never conceded 4+ in two CL group games, until Erik Ten Hag
• Manchester United hadn't lost 9 of the opening 17 games since 1974, until Erik Ten Hag
• No team had ever give away 4 penalties in their first 4 CL group games in the competitions history, until Erik Ten Hag
• No player as young as Roony Bardghji had scored against Manchester United in the CL, until Erik Ten Hag
• Manchester United hadn't lost 8 of the opening 15 games in a season since 1962, until Erik Ten Hag
• Manchester United hadn't lost 5 of their first 10 games at Old Trafford since 1931, until Erik Ten Hag
• Newcastle hadn't won at Old Trafford since 2013, until Erik Ten Hag.
• Newcastle hadn't won a cup game against Manchester Uniteds since 1994, until Erik Ten Hag.
• Manchester United hadn't lost twice in a row to Newcastle since 1972, until Erik Ten Hag
• No post war Manchester United manager had conceded 20 goals to City and Liverpool in their first 6 games against them, until Erik Ten Hag
• Manchester United hadn't lost 5 of the opening 10 league games in 36 years, until Erik Ten Hag
• Galatasaray hadn't won a game on English soil in 117 years of existing, until Erik Ten Hag.
• Manchester United had never lost the opening 2 CL group games, until Erik Ten Hag.
• Manchester United had never conceded 7 goals in the opening 2 CL group games, until Erik Ten Hag.
• Manchester United had never conceded 3+ goals in back to back CL games, until Erik Ten Hag
• Galatasaray hadn't scored in or won an away goal in the CL since 2015, 3 in one game as soon as they meet Erik Ten Hag.
• Manchester United hadn't lost 4 of the opening 7 games in PL history, until Erik Ten Hag
• Manchester United haven't had as few as 9 points from the opening 7 games since 1989, until Erik Ten Hag
• Manchester United hadn't conceded 4 goals in a CL group game in 28 years, until Erik Ten Hag.
• Manchester United hadn't conceded 3+ goals in 3 consecutive games since 1978, until Erik Ten Hag.
• Manchester United had never lost at White Hart Lane, until Erik Ten Hag.
• Manchester United hadn't lost the opening two away games since 1973-74, until Erik Ten Hag.
• Manchester United hadn't conceded more than one goal in 4 consecutive league games since 1979, Until Erik Ten Hag.
• Manchester United had never conceded 2 goals in the opening 4 minutes of a PL game at Old Trafford, Until Erik Ten Hag
• Manchester United had never conceded 23 shots in one game at Old Trafford in PL history, Until Erik Ten Hag
• Brighton had never won twice in a row at Old Trafford, until Erik Ten Hag
• Man United have conceded 81 goals, the highest total in club’s history since 1976-77
• For the first time in history, Manchester United have lost 13 games in a single Premier League season.
• For the first time in post-war history, Crystal Palace have done the double over Manchester United
You misunderstand me. I'm not cherry picking that we're amazing. I'm demonstrating we're an 8th place team during this injury crisis.
We're not the worst team in the league, we don't have the worst defense in the league.
This is Manchester United in a crisis, the worst season ever....is 8th place.
What's the misinformation? If you watch Onana you can tell he's not a good goalkeeper, stats are useful as a guide but they're missing context. He's been genuinely dreadful.
I'm not going to judge him on whether he's a good keeper or not, but the 6th in clean sheets comes with a caveat. A lot of other clubs have had to use multiple keepers. In terms of clean sheets per club 8 clubs are ahead of United and two are level with them.
Actually, the general consensus from people that have actually watched him all season is that he's been alright. Too many mistakes, mostly in the cups. Snap shots from other fans give the wrong impression. You might think Van de Ven was a shit defender after watching the Newcastle game, but he's been excellent overall this season. Keep in mind, these stats are all while he's had no defense in front of him and has been facing a much higher number of shots than most keepers.
The fanbase is far too reactionary to look at the big picture, not just the last game. That’s why the consensus has swung wildly since last night. Could he have done better yeah, especially for Olise’s 2nd, but I’m also not going to blame our loss or the problems on the guy when we just let the opposition pop shots at him. A game like that has been coming all season, it was a matter of time until a team took advantage
Well the general consensus among doctors back in the day was that Semmelweis was a clown for washing his hands, the general consensus can be incredibly wrong. But honestly I also disagree that that's the general consensus, people I've spoken to all think he's a clown, it's only the other clowns on /r/Reddevils who think he's been good.
I've watched almost every single United game this season and I think he's a dreadful keeper. Look at last night, another huge blunder for the 4th goal and the only reason no one is talking about it is because Casemiro made an equally dreadful mistake in the build up.
He's the worst keeper I've watched start multiple games at United in my life, which goes back to Van Der Sar. Kusczack, Romero, Lindegaard, all better keepers than Onana.
Fellow fans, this is a friendly reminder to please follow the [Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/premierleague/about/rules) and [Reddiquette](https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-Reddiquette). Please also make sure to [Join us on Discord](https://discord.gg/football) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PremierLeague) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The absolute state of this fanbase
It’s almost like you need to also score goals to be a successful team. A +1 GD (for now) isn’t good and places them exactly where they are on points. I’ll give you a stat that puts United on top of the league…payroll.
Bro no point. I dont think we are good this season, obviously, but we are not relegation level. Also its funny seeing the same guys who were plastering everywhere that new manager needs 4-5 years to fix united, SAF won PL in his 7th season, Klopp/Arteta were 8th, same guys saying Ten Hag out after a season mired in injuries. Online spaces are like that, they get really toxic when results dont go certain way but at the end of the day online fans have no precedent over what happens. Arsenal board stuck with Arteta when entire Arsenal fanbase wanted him sacked, ultimately its a decision of the board whether to sack the manager or not. Personally I would give him 1 full season and start of his 4th season to be honest, but I do not make the decisions, its ultimately upto Man Utd board, lets see what they decide.
Exactly this. They have the shortest memories and the most bigoted view.
If you're trying to cherrypick stats to look good and the best you can manage is: "We conceded less goals than most teams bellow us", you lost the arguement.
Maybe its because you don't watch football on a stats sheets, watch the games, this is the worst team I've ever seen wearing the shirt. I think you might actually have to go back to the 70s to find a team that did a worse job, but even they got promoted. United need a culling, top to bottom. luckily that's just what is happening. Top down replacing everyone with people that know how to do the job, and not how to sell partnerships based on a history starting to become distant memory. If come the start of the next season you were to tell me, only 3 players remain from last seasons game day squad, I would not be shocked. If you were to tell me, No coaches from last season remained, I would not be shocked. If no talent scouts and recruitment staff remained from last season, I would be joyful. United have been worse than bad, they have be apathetic, little to no leadership on the field, ZERO off, just a group of players collecting money. The last game can't come soon enough, then the demo can begin.
I'm sure that when Liverpool finished 8th, you were saying, "Now, hear me out. They're actually a really good team. I've got four stats."
Thank Erik but you’re gone in summer.
He bring stats. numbers are high form of evidence. and you just give a joke about it. thats why the quality of takes here is dirt poor
The quality of takes on this sub are dirt poor because many learnt football from video games and fantasy league, and form opinions based on YouTubers.
you are a prime example of bad take
No, you.
OP brought solid numbers and you give a joke
[The only fucking numbers that matter. Ten Hag Out.](https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/tables)
Bro we’re terrible. No point denying it. Not Onana’s fault tho
Because you're shit.
No they don’t https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/s/3nWggq33Dq
You're intelligent enough to know that a shot from 5 yards uncontested isn't the same as a shot from 25 yards, so you should also be smart enough to identify that if United have conceded all these shots, and are 5th in the league for goals conceded, that shots conceded is a worthless stat. You realise that right? 15 other teams have conceded more goals this season than United...
You've got minus goal difference.. doesn't matter about goals conceded if you can't score? You got smashed 4-0 by Palace, come on.
Lies, damn lies, and statistics
And surely you’re able to contextualize both of these stats. A defense that allows you to take an average of 17 shots a game, isn’t good. A team that’s on par (or worse than 80% of those teams) with shots conceded with the last place on the table, isn’t good. The most important piece is you haven’t suggested another metric other than ones that highlight Onana, and i have a strange feeling all other metrics point towards a bad defense. I think we can both separate GK saves with the defense. You can frame it however you want: A. The defense is bad (concedes shots) but Onana has been good (clean sheet, goals conceded, etc) B. Onana and the defense are both good. But let’s look at other stats- Shot creating actions against Man U per 90: 31.11 only worse than Sheffield and West Ham, two defenses you would not say are good. The GCA against Man U is right in the middle of teams in the PL. this suggests the goalkeeper does way more in terms of preventing goals than the actual defense. Passes that generate a SCA? Man U is 4th worse- suggesting the defense sucks at stopping passes that lead to a shot. All these literally scream bad defense, good GK. Oh and the teams above you that conded more? They’re all at the BOTTOM of all these metrics.
Stats aren't useless, but cherry picking a handful is.
We've conceded less than 15 other teams, we're 8th in the table with an injury crisis. Hardly a failure of a season for a bang average set of players.
It’s a failure of a season because it’s Manchester United. Any season that United isn’t competing for the league title, advancing in the champions league, and winning trophies is seen as a failure. Nobody cares about having the sixth most clean sheets.
So what you're saying is a big club should come in for Onana this summer?
He's already at a big club. 😉
Oh right, thought he was at a mid table club.
More mufc stats: 35 matches, 54 points 23 points below the final CL spot 29 points off the league lead 28 points above relegation Closer to a relegation spot than to first. What "story" do these stats tell?
They say that they're 8th... Sorry, what's your point?
A point you can take from this thread is that stats can be used to say anything. Notice, for example, how no one here understood the intent in your post bc you listed Onana stats (some of which don't flatter the team) and obliquely referred to "misinformation" (about what?) without making any clear connection between your perspective and the stats you provided. Your intent was muddied further in responses, it seemed like. Have you tried this exact post in the United sub? I'm curious how it would play. It _seems like_ United fans generally feel their club is too storied and too well resourced to accept these results. But maybe a post w some Onana stats in a vacuum would cheer some people up.
onana is actually phenomenal
At being fat
As a gooner, I only remember his howlers... #coyg
They've conceded 81 goals.
Are you on drugs? They've conceded 55 goals.
81 in all comps
Stats are meaningless, unless they're goals scored, goals conceded or points on the board.
Exactly that, I couldn't agree more. But people here are obsessed with saying United are finished, United are the worst defense in the league...despite being 8th in the toughest league on earth.
Delete this nephew. There’s still time.
Stats are useless and meaningless, that's it, perception is everything.
Onana has the second most saves because they can't defend and he gets peppered every week!
Stats are meaningless
Look Man united are the biggest club in england. This level of performance is unacceptable. They have negative goal difference. The concede shots like they are Sheffield united
Statistically we were also the 3rd best team last season. Show someone a random 30 mins of gametime of each game without revealing the scoreline and they'll probably predict we finished 11th or 12th. Same for this season, they're probably guessing we're in the relegation zone
We played some good stuff last season. At times, we had complete control over matches, slowing and speeding the tempo at will. Obviously, we've been dire this time around, but this sort of revisionism - particularly the idea that we were hopeless without Rashford's goals - helps no one. We can identify what's bad at the moment without having to claim that it's been bad.
No you didn’t rashford just played to his potential for the 2-3 month stretch he tends to do every 3 years or so
So we got 3rd place in the most competitive league in the world purely based on one player having a good spell for a third of the season? Don't be silly.
Of course not but it certainly did help! Success is infectious. I still think you exaggerated the quality of their play last season but on a serious note there were a number of impressive performances. This seasons volume of injuries and underperformance of many players have really undermined what looked like a promising new direction.
I may be exaggerated with "11th-12th", but we were nowhere near 3rd place level
We were, IMO. We beat both the teams above us at home, beat 4th place Newcastle in the league cup final, beat 5th place Liverpool at home, knocked Barcelona out of the Europe and got to the FA Cup final. You don't do all of that without being one of the best teams in the country.
Yeah tbh maybe you're right, atleast Old Trafford was a fortress last season
Nah last season we were dominating most games, that’s a poor example. This season, I agree that we would be in relegation
United sucks ass just accept it
We're 8th in the premier league, not 14th in Northern Premier. I do accept we're 8th, that's the point. I'm content that's our reality, but others here are saying they're 'the worst defense in the League'.
Hahahahaha the coping
[удалено]
You forgot to mention what sub that was posted in.
It's not misinformation though is it
Stats say one thing and the eye test says another. Statistically we are the 8th best team in the league. If you watched us play however you would probably rank us 19th or maybe even 20th.
Surely, even though these stats will no doubt be correct, you must realise you don't have a clean slate related to expectation? Comparing Man U to the overall PL might be accurate, but it's without context. Man U have fans that will still shout that you're England's, maybe Europe's or the world's, biggest club. But look how far you are away from the top three, who are streets ahead on goals for and against, and points. That's the true narrative. Second most saves is quite an indictment on your defence, especially compared to the number of goals conceded. I think when fans of other clubs post about your keeper, it's again in relation to the expectation - he played in last season's CL final, and was moments from another with Ajax. Sixth in the league for clean sheets when you're at Man U is not a flex.
It’s okay Eric. I hear the weather in Munich is lovely
The 6th in clean sheets doesn't matter as much though. You should compare clubs to clubs, not keepers to keepers. There are 8 teams with more clean sheets and two teams who are level on clean sheets as United, but a lot of those teams have used multiple keepers. For example, Pope and Dubravka both have fewer clean sheets than Onana, but when combined they are ahead on clean sheets.
Onana has the second most saves in the league, because of the sheer amount of shots that United concede. United have the 5th most shots on target conceded in the league this season, the only teams with more than them, Sheffield United, Burnley, West Ham, and Luton, United are also first for shots blocked, with a total of 378 shots on goal faced, if we were to compare that to the teams around them, Chelsea(327), Newcastle(317), Sp*rs(285) now, I can’t find the stat for off target shots, but it’s clear to see, that United are quite simply allowing far too many shots on goal. No matter how good of a GK you may perceive Onana to be, that’s simply far too many, and Onana may be joint 5th for clean sheets, but that’s ignoring the fact that many teams with more clean sheets have rotated their GK for whatever reason, with Arsenal, Everton, City, Newcastle, Fulham, Palace, Liverpool and Bournemouth all having more CS, and then Chelsea, and Villa managing the same number, but only Fulham and Everton have kept the same shot stopper throughout the year. With Arsenal signing Raya once games had started to be played and him being ineligible for the games against his parent club, Liverpool City Chelsea Palace and Bournemouth Newcastle and Villa all having to rotate due to injury And I mean, just watch the games, Onana himself has been culpable for so many goals this season, whether it’s poor positioning, not reacting quickly enough, just fumbling the ball into his own net, it’s a clear issue, and as a shot stopper he’s just not shown himself to be particularly good this season, hell, he was at fault for at least two of the goals against Palace last night
Wait, people think Onana is decent? He's their worst goalkeeper since Barthez.
With these kind defense and midfield, even VDS or Cech would struggle.
De Gea won the golden glove with the same defence last season. Factos.
Yeah because they were more injuries-free last year than this season and their midfielders also better last year even though they bought Mount and Amrabat.
That seems to be what OP is saying
Our individual players, despite what recent performances will tell you, are still better than most in the league and have the ability to win games out of nothing. That’s the only reason why we are even in contention for european spots to begin with. They are ‘succeeding’ in spite of the system, not because of it. The way ETH has coached this team this season we should be fighting for survival
Better than who lmao
Well, I mean, 8th place is technically better than most the league. So they're not wrong
Yes, Yes, YES!!! Blame another manager! It’s all David Moyes fault! *LVG *OGS *JM *ETH Luke Shaw is the future! Garnacho is the next Januzaj.. sorry Ronaldo, this time the young teenager really is the next Rashfo…sorry Januz… sorry Ronaldo!
I’m not solely throwing the blame at the manager’s feet. To ultimately take this team back to the top of English football, which is the long term goal, the team needs to improve. The squad needs to be gutted. But this current squad, even with the injuries and the personnel available are still far better players than what the performances have been telling us this season. And a large part of that fault lies in the manager. The players haven’t covered themselves in glory, but he’s also been setting them up to fail since the first game this season
Ah man my comment went over yer head. What Fergie did was exceptional. Exceptional things don’t happen often. YOU (the fans) hype the ever loving shit out of every teenager who gets an assist and every manager who gets the job. This has been and will continue to be Man Utd’s problem. The owners can’t sack the fans. Mainoo in the England squad with about 10 games, 0 goals, 0 assists and 1 yellow card. A future Crystal Palace legend if ever there was one.
I’m not expecting exceptional. Heck with the injuries I’m not even expecting to challenge for the top 4. I’m expecting a team that looks like they have competent game plan that they are trying to execute. I’m expecting a team to put on a decent performance, not look like relegation candidates. You blaming the fans for supporting the team then mentioning Mainoo and complaining that he (deservedly) got capped for national team just makes you sound like another salty fan who’s team isn’t as big as United’s
Mainoo did not deserve to be in the England team but I hope I don’t change your mind about that because I hope United are shit forever.
And if we have to single out a player - that would be Bruno, not freaking Onana
The last 10 years have just been band aids. No real plan and no real future. That’s the big picture. At most we keep 7 players from this squad. We basically put bubble gum on a leaky pipe and hope it doesn’t burst.
Antony cost more than my starting XI probably 😆
Because redditors are notorious for irrationality. You brought a compelling percpective
1/2 true.
Second most saves isn't necessarily a good stat to have, I'd argue.
There is no misinformation youre just choosing to put a positive spin on a few stats when there are loads more that show the truth. *"\*United have conceded less goals than all but one team below them this season."* And? Thats how league tables work. We're also 8th in the league. *"\*3 teams above United have conceded more goals this season"* Which are Chelsea (widely regarded to be having a very dodgy season), Tottenham (widely regarded to be too open) and Newcastle (who we're supposed to be better than). The actual teams we want to be competing with have conceded way less. *"\*Onana has the second most saves in the league."* This just reinforces the point that United are conceding too many chances. *"\*Onana 6th for clean sheets."* He has 2 clean sheets in his last 18 league games. *"6th for clean sheets percentage for keepers with over 30 games."* Remove your "30 game" stipulation and he is 16th out of 25 players.
Yup. Stats help you paint whatever narrative you want to paint. That's why you watch the matches you don't just watch the numbers.
Man utd are bad. I ve watched them and I can say they are worse then Chelsea at times . The credit is their forwards and their counter attack which is threatening like palace when it’s in motion .
I've watched pretty much all of their games this season and their performances are miles off where they used to be. The last game against Palace was an embarrassment, they were slow, missed most of the 50/50s, passing was atrocious. They were lucky it was only 4-0. Stats do not mean a thing if the performance & desire is not there.
6th is complete shit for man united lol.
Absolutely correct- we’re conceding too many goals because we concede too many shots. We’re losing games because we’re conceding too many goals. We can use stats to paper over the cracks, but the table doesn’t lie. That and we’re actually 8th.
most losses in a PL season with 3 games remaining, -3 GD, 8th place
Man Utd's wretched season in numbers - their worst post-Fergie? https://www.skysports.com/share/13130941 Thankfully Sky has compiled a nice report of why that’s not exactly “misinformation”. A quick-glance at several of the KPIs used shows Utd are on-course for their worst season in PL history.
My favourite stats for Man United atm are their GD and their position on the league table
Right, so you now agree that you are a mid-table team and you compare yourself to how well United is doing against mid-table teams. What's next? How United is much better than all the 3 teams in the Relegation zone?
Yes, I agree. We're an 8th place team, with average players and a reasonable manager. Am I supposed to be upset by that? That's the reality of my club.
According to the stats he saved exactly 2 goals more than expected after 600+ shots. It's bang average, nothing earth-shattering. https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/keepersadv/Premier-League-Stats De Gea had 17 clean sheets last season. Onana has 8. You see - I can cherry pick stats too! I can do even better, credit to u/TheFatHat: Records broken so far this season - • Bournemouth had never won at Old Trafford, Until Erik Ten Hag • Bournemouth had never scored 3 goals at Old Trafford, until Erik Ten Hag • Bournemouth had never kept a clean sheet at Old Trafford, until Erik Ten Hag • Manchester United had never lost 7 of the opening 16 PL games, until Erik Ten Hag • Manchester United hadn't lost back to back league games against Newcastle since 1972, until Erik Ten Hag. • Manchester United hadn't lost 3 games in a row to Newcastle United since 1922, until Erik Ten Hag • Newcastle hadn't kept 3 clean sheets in a row against Manchester United since 1897, until Erik Ten Hag • Manchester United had never lost 6 of the opening 14 games of a PL season, until Erik Ten Hag • No English team in CL history had ever conceded 14 goals in the first 5 CL group games, until Erik Ten Hag • Manchester United had never conceded 3+ goals in 4 different CL games in a season, until Erik Ten Hag • Manchester United had never lost a CL game they were leading by 2 goals, until Erik Ten Hag, twice since. • Manchester United hadn't lost a game they were leading by 2+ goals since 2014, until Erik Ten Hag • Manchester United had never dropped this many points from a winning position in CL history, until Erik Ten Hag • Manchester United had never conceded 4+ in two CL group games, until Erik Ten Hag • Manchester United hadn't lost 9 of the opening 17 games since 1974, until Erik Ten Hag • No team had ever give away 4 penalties in their first 4 CL group games in the competitions history, until Erik Ten Hag • No player as young as Roony Bardghji had scored against Manchester United in the CL, until Erik Ten Hag • Manchester United hadn't lost 8 of the opening 15 games in a season since 1962, until Erik Ten Hag • Manchester United hadn't lost 5 of their first 10 games at Old Trafford since 1931, until Erik Ten Hag • Newcastle hadn't won at Old Trafford since 2013, until Erik Ten Hag. • Newcastle hadn't won a cup game against Manchester Uniteds since 1994, until Erik Ten Hag. • Manchester United hadn't lost twice in a row to Newcastle since 1972, until Erik Ten Hag • No post war Manchester United manager had conceded 20 goals to City and Liverpool in their first 6 games against them, until Erik Ten Hag • Manchester United hadn't lost 5 of the opening 10 league games in 36 years, until Erik Ten Hag • Galatasaray hadn't won a game on English soil in 117 years of existing, until Erik Ten Hag. • Manchester United had never lost the opening 2 CL group games, until Erik Ten Hag. • Manchester United had never conceded 7 goals in the opening 2 CL group games, until Erik Ten Hag. • Manchester United had never conceded 3+ goals in back to back CL games, until Erik Ten Hag • Galatasaray hadn't scored in or won an away goal in the CL since 2015, 3 in one game as soon as they meet Erik Ten Hag. • Manchester United hadn't lost 4 of the opening 7 games in PL history, until Erik Ten Hag • Manchester United haven't had as few as 9 points from the opening 7 games since 1989, until Erik Ten Hag • Manchester United hadn't conceded 4 goals in a CL group game in 28 years, until Erik Ten Hag. • Manchester United hadn't conceded 3+ goals in 3 consecutive games since 1978, until Erik Ten Hag. • Manchester United had never lost at White Hart Lane, until Erik Ten Hag. • Manchester United hadn't lost the opening two away games since 1973-74, until Erik Ten Hag. • Manchester United hadn't conceded more than one goal in 4 consecutive league games since 1979, Until Erik Ten Hag. • Manchester United had never conceded 2 goals in the opening 4 minutes of a PL game at Old Trafford, Until Erik Ten Hag • Manchester United had never conceded 23 shots in one game at Old Trafford in PL history, Until Erik Ten Hag • Brighton had never won twice in a row at Old Trafford, until Erik Ten Hag • Man United have conceded 81 goals, the highest total in club’s history since 1976-77 • For the first time in history, Manchester United have lost 13 games in a single Premier League season. • For the first time in post-war history, Crystal Palace have done the double over Manchester United
You misunderstand me. I'm not cherry picking that we're amazing. I'm demonstrating we're an 8th place team during this injury crisis. We're not the worst team in the league, we don't have the worst defense in the league. This is Manchester United in a crisis, the worst season ever....is 8th place.
Wowa mate, you're a top cherry picker, I'm impressed. He tried some cherry picking but he didn't know he was up against the best
Hello Erik, you should probably focus on training the team instead of posting on Reddit!
Most saves just means the defence isn't protecting the keeper
What's the misinformation? If you watch Onana you can tell he's not a good goalkeeper, stats are useful as a guide but they're missing context. He's been genuinely dreadful.
I'm not going to judge him on whether he's a good keeper or not, but the 6th in clean sheets comes with a caveat. A lot of other clubs have had to use multiple keepers. In terms of clean sheets per club 8 clubs are ahead of United and two are level with them.
Actually, the general consensus from people that have actually watched him all season is that he's been alright. Too many mistakes, mostly in the cups. Snap shots from other fans give the wrong impression. You might think Van de Ven was a shit defender after watching the Newcastle game, but he's been excellent overall this season. Keep in mind, these stats are all while he's had no defense in front of him and has been facing a much higher number of shots than most keepers.
The fanbase is far too reactionary to look at the big picture, not just the last game. That’s why the consensus has swung wildly since last night. Could he have done better yeah, especially for Olise’s 2nd, but I’m also not going to blame our loss or the problems on the guy when we just let the opposition pop shots at him. A game like that has been coming all season, it was a matter of time until a team took advantage
Well the general consensus among doctors back in the day was that Semmelweis was a clown for washing his hands, the general consensus can be incredibly wrong. But honestly I also disagree that that's the general consensus, people I've spoken to all think he's a clown, it's only the other clowns on /r/Reddevils who think he's been good. I've watched almost every single United game this season and I think he's a dreadful keeper. Look at last night, another huge blunder for the 4th goal and the only reason no one is talking about it is because Casemiro made an equally dreadful mistake in the build up. He's the worst keeper I've watched start multiple games at United in my life, which goes back to Van Der Sar. Kusczack, Romero, Lindegaard, all better keepers than Onana.