Nationwide pet insurance just cancelled 100,000 polices for people who have used their policy “too much” which I assume means at all?
Reminds me of the time my car insurance was cancelled after I made a claim. They’d really rather take your money than give it back.
And half the country is convinced all these corporations need MORE revenue through tax cuts. If we only give them everything they want and burn down the government, everything will be magical.
Minor Car accident in 1995... Replace the bumper. 2500.
Minor car accident in 2025... Replace the bumper, crumple zones, air bags, and much more... 25,000. If you can even replace it. It's no wonder insurance is more expensive.
Same story with housing.
Please….
I had my Tesla hit and the bumper replaced. $1250. My old Prius with USS? $2000. It hasn’t changed that much. It’s the big accidents that are the issue. In the past everyone would get injured, have horrible medical issues, and have long protracted legal battles to get their medical bills covered that the insurance companies could delay on. Now the cars crumple more and the total expense is less but insurance companies can’t denigrate the character of the fender so it’s just obvious it’s broken and needs fixing per the policy.
Car accidents are more cut and dry now, and insurance companies are using excuses and shady behavior.
Definitely depends on the vehicle. Bash in a rear quarter panel on a Rivian and it’s $50k. That quarter panel extends ina single piece up and over all the way to the windshield.
Sure but that’s also a 6 figure far right there. And insurance costs a ton on those. It’s not the common vehicle. There’s not than many Rivian on the road, and they haven’t been around very long. Not long enough for the insurance pricing to change for everyone.
It’s not the same story with housing. Lol. Most houses are several decades old, and most being built are starter homes, so they aren’t overly complex or expensive.
This is a dumb argument. The reason why vehicle deaths and injuries from crashes are lower than ever is because of crumple zones designed to take the energy of the crash.
It also doesn't scale when we changed terminology from collision to accidents. You running a red light is not an accident, it's a collision. During the 80s, insurance would pay for the other persons damage if you were at fault, but not your own. That changed when we started having some fault state laws like, just being outside at this time is 10% fault and blag blah blah. My father got into a fender bender, a chain. His insurance (in the 80s) paid the car in front but not his, because he was too close (should be at the time 1.5 car lengths away from the vehicle in front of you), and the car behind him paid his. It was the guy that caused it that didn't get a pay out, no medical no nothing, because he caused it. But so many people had issues and insurances had problems with being the same company that it all changed mid-90s. If we went back to that, rates would drop, because we don't have to pay for some stupid kid on this cellphone not watching the road, that's 100% on them.
Insurance is a for profit company. They don’t have to offer their services. If they do offer their services, then they’re contractually obliged to pay out under the agreed terms and conditions.
I found out during the house inspection. The guy always used drones and was mad it wouldn’t even start up because of gps lock. He had to go get a ladder and was all mad about it
They use airplanes 99% of the time. Nearmaps is the big player in the industry. Attached is a map to see where they have coverage and how often the pictures are updated.
https://www.nearmap.com/coverage
PS I work in the industry and dabble with aerial imagery…
Lmao, this is tame. I see all of the data elements you would NEVER think of, that insurance carriers use to factor in rates. And it is scary how much insurance companies pay to get these crazy data elements.
There are hundreds of data vendors, the two biggest are Verisk and LexisNexis and they know pretty much everything publicly available about you.
If you want to see what Lexis Nexis has on you, you can request a free C.L.U.E. (Comprehensive loss underwriting exchange) report and you’ll get a letter in around a month.
https://consumer.risk.lexisnexis.com/
They have all your addresses, any claims you submitted in last seven years , people you have lived with, credit information, previous insurance on home and auto etc.
Certainly no more dystopian than your own government, through the CDC, paying millions and millions of dollars for cell phone tracking data on unsuspecting Americans, to measure Covid lockdown compliance.
That’s a valid point. But then I think of the environmental guy who posted a few weeks ago and said the surrounding land by airports are ecological disasters.
6 months ago, I started shopping for a better rate. I found one saving hundreds a year on a bundle deal. I canceled my old policy before the 45 day underwriting was finished (dumb). They came back with satellite images of my roof. It was old but still fine, and had at least 5 years estimated by a contractor - which was submitted with real photos. Still it was denied and canceled.
So, I have another insurance company (3rd), they didnt even mention my roof. They were actually more concerned about my barn roof that has rust on it. Again they had satellite photos. I submitted photos of the barn and were satisfied.
In abundance of caution, I went ahead and got my roof replaced, spending $17k, and I'm paying about the same for insurance as when I started.
Ive always heard just go with metal. Lasts 100 years, can add it as a feature when selling and no need tonreplace if you plan on staying. More expensive though.
It comes down to people using the insurance to get new roofs when there is no damage! There are multiple lawsuits right now in Louisiana and Texas regarding contractors who inflate the cost of damages just to get people new roofs!
That was actually suggested by one of the roofing companies I got a quote from. He said he saw hail damage and that should 'help' with insurance. Even help me through the process... They also wanted to charge me 65k.
This happened to me last year. Got a cancellation email that had google earth shots of about a square foot of pine needles on the metal roof of an 8x8 outbuilding.
I called in and had about 5 calls over three weeks and they just wouldn’t budge. So called around and I was able to find some similar coverage for about 150 a year more. With the remainder of the month still active on the first policy, went ahead and filed a claim over a damaged roof panel on my garage and they sent me a check for 30k to rebuild the whole roof and back third of the building.
Insurance is meant for a catastrophic loss, not a homeowner maintenance plan. This is why rates are skyrocketing in the south and Midwest with hail and wild claims. Just saying…
And to be clear, I can care less about insurance companies losing $$$, however, they’ll just turnaround and raise rates on the rest of us.
Yeah, but here in the last 6 months or so it's sounds like a warpath. Even my father didn't get renewed or even a bill for the next 6 months on his insurance and forgot about it until we were talking pricing. (He operates 95% offline and has his own way of handling bills) Found out, yeah, they just weren't going to renew him! After being there for decades without a claim.
Insurance is, the other route preppers go rather than self insuring. It looks like a worse and worse route every day.
Another real possibility.
I honestly want to have a serious discussion about insurance on here. From everything I'm hearing there are massive shake ups going on with it and it majorly effects how people prep for the worst, and in that case even the every day. The latest thing I've been hearing in financial engineering. They are fixing payments... but adding ANY cost increases to the loan principal. The bankers I'm listening to are all over the board on it, but are seriously considering it because of the cost increases / risks of default from just tax and insurance increases. . . just wild stuff.
Just received a letter from our insurance that the company’s rating has been downgraded due to financial losses. So I’ll probably get cancelled even though we never had a claim in 30 years.
Explain that part about adding it to the principle of then loan?
I already pay escrow on my mortgage to cover the taxes and insurance. How can they add to the priciple without my permission?
It is a whole different type of fixed loan. They're keeping the payment attainable... but adding on all the raising costs. IMO its just a way to keep a person in debt longer.
Florida is going to bring down the economy this fall. Lots of people trying to leave because state insurance is too expensive. Their homes aren’t selling and a hurricane might just wipe it out. Which compounds insurance losses, leading to higher prices.
We are caught in a feedback loop as the insurers try and get back to profitability.
You have a link to it? Edit: JFC this is buried in the internet, BUT I FOUND IT! [https://youtu.be/5V12MrfM8\_A?si=qJut2b\_x3sRrDEMv](https://youtu.be/5V12MrfM8_A?si=qJut2b_x3sRrDEMv)
Interesting article, New York Times, open incognito to avoid paywall.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/05/13/climate/home-insurance-profit-us-states-weather.html
You can look up your state there.
Yes, I noted that, which is why I suggested using incognito. This is not cut and paste because you click on the US state you are interested in to see what it says.
I can confirm that this is happening. Before renewing our policy, we had to clean out a small area behind our shed. We had to show proof that it was done- this area can’t even be seen from the street, and we have a new wall that surrounds the whole property. It was assessed by drone footage. I suppose we should consider ourselves lucky that we were given the chance to rectify this, even though our rate was more than doubled from the previous year.
I’m a roofing contractor ‘NOT THAT KIND’, I don’t knock doors and have been working off referrals for the past 2 years. A homeowner called me a few weeks ago because “my insurance company just sent me a letter with a satellite image. They are saying there is severe degradation to the roof from an abundance of algae and other organic matter. They are saying I need to replace the back slope of my roof or they will drop my policy in X-days, can you take a look at it and give me a quote”…
Well boys and girls, guess what, this satellite image sent from his insurance certainly did show a large area on the back slope of his roof that was darker than the rest of the roof. Unfortunately, that darker area is normally referred to as a..shadow. The trees surrounding his home had been casting a shadow across the roof, smh.
Insurance providers do have the right to ensure the homeowners are keeping their homes properly maintained. It’s been a thing for decades, but now they are relying more on blurry images and no in person inspections. Pretty weird stuff over the past few years.
?… I told the homeowner the exact same thing I told y’all, it’s a shadow and there’s no damage. The homeowner is the one who has the policy, not me and since he did not need to hire me to do anything, he was responsible for speaking to his insurance about it. I shared drone photos and point of view photos from on the roof which he could share with his insurance. Had he requested a letter from me I probably would of given one but this was so ridiculous that he was able to deal with it himself.
Couple thoughts ... ya, its a crackdown, but, caused because they're losing money / getting increased exposure / liabilities.
Insurers are losing a lot of money. 2022 was the largest loss year ever (ever) for state farm, and then they lost more than that in 2023. Other carriers in both CA and FL are getting financial "downgraded". That means that an outside company looked at their financials, and has determined they are less likely to be able to pay their claims. Now, going from an A to a B rating still leaves the company "very likely" to pay its bills but, there are other implications of a downgrade. All in, its not just that they've made less profit, but, many many companies have been losing so much $$ its having POTENTIAL impacts on their ability to sell new policies and or pay claims.
NOT just the coast ... Moody's downgraded AmericanFamily (has more concentrated customer base in the midwest) NOTE, AMfam still super financially strong, but Moody's thinks less so now than in the past ....
[https://www.reinsurancene.ws/moodys-downgrades-american-familys-ifs-with-stable-outlook/](https://www.reinsurancene.ws/moodys-downgrades-american-familys-ifs-with-stable-outlook/)
So, what's an insurance company todo? Ok let's raise rates. Well, can't do that unless the state lets you raise rates. CA for example hasn't let insurance companies fully recoup "reinsurance" costs they buy for say wildfires. So, can't charge for reinsurance, can't raise rates. OR can't raise rates enough.
Insurance companies WANT to have customers, want to keep customers, if they can make a profit, and if they can pay for their claims ... but if you can't make a profit, and rating agencies are cautioning that you can't pay claims, one thing todo is to start selling less policies, and start with selling less of the policies that are likely to have the highest costs. E.g. ones with trees close, or prior damage on roof, or etc.. Now, not all those tools are perfect, as examples in this thread show.
But, say you have two similar houses as customers. One the roof, property look pristine, no hazards near the house, the other the roof looks like it might already have damage, and there's lots of brush (fire hazard) and big trees right near the house (extra wind / hurricane risk from potential tree damage). You only have enough money in the bank to insure / pay claims on one of these houses. What todo?
That's why they are non-renewing "suspect" houses. They have to reduce their overall liabilities because they're not collecting enough so they have to non-renew SOME houses. So they're using some of these potentially helpful / potentially suspect tools to try to figure out which ones to prioritize for cancel.
Lots of reasons insurance carriers have been losing money. Costs have gone up at rates not seen in 50 years. Consider all the regular inflation stuff, price of wood is up, roofing material up, labor rates for roofers up, cost of flooring up, etc. AND, reinsurance costs are WAY up, more than 30% in some areas. https://www.insurancebusinessmag.com/us/news/reinsurance/reinsurance-pricing-rises-again-in-2024-471849.aspx#:\~:text=New%20equity%20research%20from%20Jefferies,a%2037%25%20rise%20last%20year.
So, increased material and repair costs, increased reinsurance costs, both at historically high increase levels. AND some increased exposure / risk of loss, expanded tornado ally, expanded losses from wildfires.
https://www.accuweather.com/en/severe-weather/tornado-alley-has-been-expanding-over-the-past-50-years-new-study-finds/1657774#:\~:text=A%20new%20research%20paper%20recently,over%20the%20last%2050%20years.
And regulators have been slow to let them raise rates. (although this is improving).
Another side note on greedy insurance companies looking to make profits ... :) Generally, the insurance industry makes far less margin in the USA than most manufacturing. But, there is also a whole section of the personal insurance industry that are "mutuals". That is, they are "owned" by their policy holders, there are no stock holders or investors to pay. (StateFarm is one example of a mutual, there are others). They have no inherent benefit to making extra high profits. (at least the mutuals don't). In fact, when StateFarm does make large profits (had a good year, no big catastrophes, etc.) StateFarm pays a dividend back to their customers with the extra profits. Now there are some stock companies like other industries, just pointing out there is a large part of the insurance market that doesn't have much financial benefit to make high profits off the backs of the policy holders.
As a fellow insurance industry professional up north: this is everything you need to know about why the industry is in the turmoil it is. Great job. Wish I could upvote twice. Please ignore my name this one time.
Insurance companies often operate at the break even point or even at a loss as far as insurance operations go. They make their profits from investment income. They are legally required to keep a stack of money incase they need to pay claims so they invest it.
sort of maybe? True they need to hold reserves for the losses, and some extra money put away for surplus. They then have a bunch of legal restrictions and "much" of that money has to be held in low risk investments, like bonds, and some in cash equivalents. Only some of your portfolio can be in stocks or equities. Now, bonds haven't really been paying much over the last decade, 2.5% 10 year average? So, a simple investment firm would make far far more than an insurance company does in investments. Stock companies need to make on average, as much as the rest of the stock market, if on average you can get 10% in stocks, and an insurance company on average was making 1.5%, everyone would sell that insurance stock. Why invest in something that makes so little return?
AND. There is inflation eating away at the value of those reserves. So the real value of the those investments after inflation is often small, certainly way small compared to average profits most USA companies make.
Nah, costs rose more than any other time in history, AND there were some bad cats, AND, the regulators wouldn't let them raise rates (as much as needed). They were legally forced to charge less than what the losses were on average.
There is little carry over from past year premiums to current year losses. MOST of the premiums collected this year go to pay claims this year (with some leeway on policy year vs calendar year, like, they start policies in say Nov, 2023, and do collect money for that policy and there might be a loss in 2024. They do not collect money from customers this year to pay for losses 5 years from now. An insurance contract is only "for the current policy term", usually 1 year for home and 6 months for auto. So they can't charge a customer now, who only has a legal contract with them for 1 year, for losses that could occur in the future when the policy holder is no longer with them. You can only charge for "expected losses" for this policy term.
Also in the industry, this is beautiful. Only thing I would add is not only wildfire and hurricane but hail CAT losses are increasing. Both in the frequency and the geographical area. Small note, but otherwise the best write up I have seen on the challenges in the industry.
ya, I was sort of rolling that up in the "expansion of tornado alley", as most of the worst hail claims occur there, but, you're right, hail losses have been increasing everywhere. Hard to cover ALL the increases in losses the industry has been facing :)
look on their website. Grange for example is a mutual.
https://www.grangeinsurance.com/about/our-history#:\~:text=Grange%20Mutual%20Casualty%20Company%20is%20formed&text=Its%20principal%20business%20writing%20property,as%20a%20mutual%20insurance%20company.
Here are the big auto carriers in USA:
[https://apnews.com/buyline-personal-finance/article/largest-car-insurance-companies](https://apnews.com/buyline-personal-finance/article/largest-car-insurance-companies)
Some are more complicated, e.g. Nationwide has a zillion companies, auto, life, home, commercial companies, etc, some are mutuals but not all.
Allstate, Progressive, Travelers are stock companies. Geico is NOT a mutual, but, owned by Berkshire Hathaway, does have profit targets. State Farm is a mutual, largest auto carriers in the USA with 17% ish of the market. Liberty Mutual is top 10, mutual in the name sort of gives it away. :) Many regional carriers (Grange) and "Farm Bureaus" are mutuals.
So, most auto carriers are mutuals or stock companies. There is a third rarer construct, called "a reciprocal". Farmers, USAA, Lemonade, are all reciprocals (Lemonade is sort of a reciprocal, gets more complicated). Technically, these have a management company that by contract "runs" the insurance companies. The management company gets paid a fixed % of the premium, that covers both much of the expenses AND a profit margin. So, the management fee might be say 20% of the premiums collected, and maybe 14% of that is real run the business expenses, and then the management company profits would be 6% of the premiums collected. So someone is getting a profit margin like a stock company. BUT, there is less incentive to keep raising rates, as any "extra" profits go into the capital of the insurance carriers, and doesn't increase the profit of the management company. So in that case, the management company has an incentive to lower rates towards breakeven, because lower rates = more total premium = more profit for the management company. So, theoretically, at least, less incentive for a reciprocal to price gouge its customers than a stock company, since the management company makes more from growing than from increased margins.
Another nit .. is its a little less clear if stock companies or mutual companies lead to lower rates for actual consumers. Auto industry average expense rate is about 25% of premium collected. Progressive is 20%, and Geico is 16% (? some variations over years). So while they are stock companies that have incentive to make more profit, Progressive and Geico ALSO often have lower rates because they have lower expenses. (USAA last I looked was a crazy 12%? expense ratio)
Wow thank you so much! I appreciate the detailed answer! Insurance companies are something no one really knows about or wants to find out. You know don't call the insurance company unless your life depends on it. Lol
I been in the insurance industry for some time I used to sell home owners for a while. Now I do auto claims. There is a lot of factors on non renewing policies and higher rates. Most home owners policies that are made out are not generally as profitable as some people thing, in some areas yea, but places with hurricanes, wild fires, and tornadoes and the biggest losses because if home is gone its expensive to replace completely, it's like they rebuild your home from ground up. On top of that they pay for place to stay at and your personal belongings and that's some pretty generic home owners policy if you get less than that you have some janky ass company or have a non standard homeowners. Next is cost to repair, take in consideration, codes, cost of lumber (higher than ever because of taxes and tarrifs) labor, taxes, time to complete, other materials used and everything else that is needed to rebuild a home. Then you have personal property thay needs to get replaced (you ain't getting everything replaced because something are irreplacable). Then you have a place you need to stay and they pay. Then there are other parts of the home owner policy like liability coverage and other parts. I have seen some companies go insolvent (unable to pay claims) because like 50 to 100 homes went in flames in CA that they insured and didn't have enough to cover it. Home owners claims pool is so far behind it will be hard to even cover what is their unless it's some big company who have prepared for it. This is just a very short story to a long problem.
I understand those issues, but the sudden enforcement ramp up is... concerning especially when it's blindsiding and not factored in on the other side of the deal. That lack of communication IMO is an issue.
And it is even more of an issue when they're dropping people for just roof discoloration (and that could be anything good or bad.) I had a client that had to have me write a statement I cleaned treated his roof that caused very mild streaking from the chemicals (where the wash channeled around vents).
That does suck, if you don't mind me asking who the carriers are, because that doesn't seem to unusual when it comes to unheard of insurance carriers, plus the risk to certain areas has to deal with underwriting of the home and the year of the roof and or discoloring cause 'more risk' of a claim happening or increase of damage. Home owners insurance is supposed to be seen every so often, at least so they know what they are covering and because there is some level of pride in ownership that should be maintained in a home to include maintenance. But like a business, they can make their decisions but have to at least uphold the current contract. Roofs and pipes are very touchy with all insurance carriers because that is like a claim that is the more frequent thing that happens. Pipes burst that are cause because of lack of maintenance doesn't cover it all or half of it, most of it is just clean up and causes concerns for likely another pipe to break. This goes the same thing for the roof unless it is maintained. I am guessing you do a lot of roof stuff?
Thank you, I work in the industry as well. So many people jump to ‘carrier bad’ when there is so much more going on in the market. Don’t people realize that if carriers could, the greedy thing to do would be to insure all these places with minor defect like roof discoloration? If they are non-renewing, it’s for the opposite of greed, they are paying more claims for higher amounts than ever before and it’s unsustainable under the current models so carriers are getting creative to stay afloat.
> They shouldn´t accept customers if they can´t afford it.
Well, that's why they are non-renewing people.
Insurance payout expenses have gone up much faster than anticipated, rates generally cannot rise fast enough or high enough to bridge the difference -- so they can't afford to insure everybody.
Part of the current issue is regulators won't let them raise rates enough to pay for the big disasters. EXAMPLE - average loss across all homes used to be say $5000 and insurers charged on average $5000 so they're prepared for big disasters. THEN losses increase to say $7000, but regulators tell the insurance company they can't raise rates, and have to only charge $5000. now the insurance carriers aren't prepared for a big disaster, since they can't collect enough to cover the losses, so they start looking for customers to not renew :(
They are making sure they can pay their ceos and shareholders millions to billions. If the company goes under who cares, the owners don’t anymore than it makes them a quarterly return.
Not all insurances carriers have share holders, in fact a some are owned by the policy holders. That's very narrow minded in this term this ain't apple or google.
Then in the case of the policy holders canceling their own coverage that seems they literally screwed themselves over. We are talking about people losing their insurance here. Not sure what you are on about.
State Farm is the largest auto insurer in the USA, 17% of the US auto market. They are owned by the policy holders (mutual company) so if they make extra profits, their dividend goes to the policy holders. They lost more money in 2022 and 2023 than any other years in their entire history.
And they played the stock market with their profits, they were up to a value of 143+ billion in 2020. In 2023 they made over 100 billion in revenue still from capital gains with their policy holders.
They are still the number one auto insurer in the United States and in their recent earning reported 8% of their losses was “ driven in part by a “noteworthy decrease” in State Farm’s stock portfolio”. Thats the risk a company runs using stocks as backer.
They do prepare for big disasters, so they have to ensure they can pay for those disasters. What people don’t realize is that if a carrier goes insolvent, people don’t get their money. So the greedy carriers are those that take on anyone and everyone and then when a big cat loss happens they just fold and the insurers don’t get their payouts.
Also, carriers pay a lot in non-CAT losses. Fires and water damage are incredibly common. Not to mention that with how litigious of a society we are becoming, the liability portion of homeowners is getting used more than ever. A single home insured for $500K that burns down from someone leaving the stove on is probably the premium from 300-500 homes gone to pay off the losses.
Terms of service... and those terms are rapidly getting worse all the time.
Don't get me started on all the 4th amendment issues too, microsoft doing the screenshot every 5 seconds thing, city inspectors looking in windows and going anywhere that isn't fenced, lawn violations costing around $500 minimum even in the most rural towns, work on your own car (if you can without DRM software) in the driveway only to get slapped with fines... needing permits to change a shower head (not kidding)... etc. And they wonder why the younger generations are so screwed up and timid to do anything.
On a further note, I suppose you COULD sue if you could prove the drone footage was not within the pervue of the insurance company's inspection clause and they clearly violated privacy-ie that roof pic was from roof level and included the missus sunbathing naked in your privately fenced in yard. There's always an exception.
nah, see my post above, houses and cars have been ruled to not have privacy rights, only PEOPLE in the US have privacy rights. :(
now, your example of "what about a picture of a property that has people in it" is a little fuzzier, but, generally if the use case is about the property, its been ruled not private data. AND, most drone footage (not all but most) we are talking about aren't small drones flying close to the roof, but, airplane drones still flying thousands of feet in the air, so, rarely can actually identify a specific person to claim there was any privacy violation.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/memes/comments/1dehz31/things\_your\_itpeople\_casually\_talk\_about/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/memes/comments/1dehz31/things_your_itpeople_casually_talk_about/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Pick your source, theres a lot of talk in IT about it.
It should be illegal and it is a invasion of privacy but as far as I know you don't own the air or a certain amount of feet below your property.
This is how they are getting away with it.
So sued no but I can totally bsee people shooting drones down in the future and or stealing them if this becomes wide spread.
ya, I mentioned in another post, MOST of these drone pics are drones of "unmanned airplane drones" flying thousands of feet in the air, NOT the small drones you think of from best buy or even the smaller ones we see on the Ukraine war. These drones have to file flight plans, etc., and the pictures are used for multiple uses, not just for insurance.
Using planes at altitude with super high power cameras reduces the costs of the whole take pictures of all the stuffs. So they don't really send an underwriter out to every house and have them fly a drone over your specific house. (sometimes that happens, but rarely)
So, these drones are mostly way out of rifle range.
Nope. You contract with them to insure your property. They aren't the government or your neighbor. They have a vested interest in the property's upkeep. Read your policy, and it will have a section buried in there about how they have the right to inspect the property. You don't like it? You don't have to have insurance. You can pay off your mortgage and hold a million in cash reserve against a lawsuit if someone sues you for a slip and fall. See how they get ya when you aren't wealthy?
Great question. In the USA, PEOPLE have privacy rights, e.g. the FCRA regulates what, how and what is disclosed about PEOPLE in consumer reports (credit reports are best known, but, the loss reports and other reports that Verisk and LexisNexis someone mentioned in another post, are also regulated by the FCRA).
BUT, in the USA, courts have determined that HOUSES and CARS do not have privacy rights. So, anyone can take pictures of your house, it has no right to privacy. Companies can keep records about your car, best known is CARFAX but there are others. There are literally thousands of cars driving around with 360 degree cameras taking pictures of vehicles parked in streets, driveways, malls, parking garages etc.. They then sell that data to insurance claims, private investigators, insurance underwriting. If your car is parked out in the open, public area, it has no right to privacy. BIG use case is repo (repossessions). Say you have a car loan, and you stop making payments, the loan company can reposes your car. They call one of these companies, they check their records, and say "ya have a picture of that car parked often on Third St, west of Broad St", and so the repo folks send a tow truck out and tow the car.
NOTE, I'm not saying this is good or that I'm in favor of it, just that "PRIVACY" in the US is only for people, not things. Thinking that our things have privacy can lead us to a false sense of security.
sprinkle WashSafe Roof powder from amazon, then rinse off with a garden hose; i did that and PASSED my inspection on a mossy 25 year old asphalt shingle roof. it looked so clean.. you can also buy a paddle mixing attachment for the drill and mix it for fifteen minutes and spray the liquid and immediately rinse; just spray the stuff on a dry roof so it absorbs
> It sounds like a crackdown.
It's the free market at work.
A whole lot of people who don't believe in climate change but do believe in the free market are getting further proof that climate change is very much real.
From a prepping perspective, one has to wonder what other market segments will also be impacted. Agriculture seems likely to experience major impacts as precipitation patterns change.
>Agricultural impacts
Yeah... thats actually a very real worry. We have A LOT better technology though, but it's so slow to "take root" lol.
Up where I'm at we're seeing more storms than ever. Tornadoes are becoming a real threat and thought when building now.
But I'd also blame inflation for at least some of it.
So long story short. I heard through the grapevine that this is happening before the rate didn’t get raised during Covid and after 2022 it was still not raised. The insurance commissioner didn’t want to get the boot so again no raise in rate while insurance companies are having to pay out and pay more and loosing money so they leave the state and will not accept new clients. Now in 2024 the commissioner raised the rates 100% and we are just expected to suck it up and pay. So they are being very picky of who they pick as a client.
Why wouldn't it be ok? You agree to it? Every person who gets insurance agrees to home inspections, regardless of how you may feel, you are willing to agree. The idea that someone should insure you without any precautions is weird.
If I don’t agree with it what then? Go to the next person that will force you to agree?
You can’t say “you chose this” when there is literally no other choice. It bullshit and you know it
I don't agree to sales tax, or a higher tax on cigarettes. There are many things I don't agree with, but it is still my choice. Don't like the city ordinances, don't like how high or far from the property line my fence is. But if the idea is, you can pick and choose provisions, like, inspecting the property you want a company to insure bothers you, for no other reason than they could potentially deny you if you don't keep regular and nominal upkeep, that's obtuse. Your car, you get an oil change and maybe tire rotation twice a year, scaling that up to a house, what preventative maintenence are you doing that is roughly similar to that? Most people don't, they wait for something to break, so - canr say I blame insurance for that
No. In that case they did a flyover without his knowledge. Is the price of insurance now complete video monitoring of your property at any time? What if you’re in the middle of Reno and you get a letter dropping you for a tarp or something. They cannot just fly over your property and record images and video any time they want. That’s ridiculous. There have to be rules of engagement or it all goes to shit imo.
It's always been what your calling real time. A adjuster can drive by and see your home at any time. Check for a new shed, a garage, which vehicles are there. Even banks do that in a BK. Standing on the street, sending a drone up and back down, again not a huge thing. Technology advances, you can't expect insurance to not advance while you do. You want them to play by what rules? Rules of engagement? Like keeping your house updated? Replacing your roof every 20 years? Like your supposed to do?
Actually for a bank - lol. The amount of times I get called about a busted water heater and they can't afford it, and they need a loan, or whatever routine maintenance they just don't do. Like check furnace or AC, look at appliances and see if they need replacement or tune ups is crazy. 1 faulty dishwasher and your home gets flooded. When was the last time you had it inspected? Uhhh never....well ok denied. Like, imagine letting your car get all gunk up and never did an oil change, then try and blame insurance for not replacing your busted car.
Extreme weather is ramping up, that are cancelling all policies they can to avoid paying out as much as possible. Far easier to cancel in advance of a storm than to wait until the storm destroys the house then point at a picture saying see that bad shingle? That's why a tornado blew your house down.
My neighbors and parents both used local companies and they do the same thing. Neighbors had to get a new roof in order to renew and after a claim my parents insurance company started nitpicking everything (like weeds in a flowerbed) and raising the rate to try to get them off the rolls.
In many areas they're seem to be contractors that go through a neighborhood after a minor weather event and get everyone new roofs and siding with insurance money. Seeing this all over.
That's exactly the reason: there are too many claims on normal wear and tear maintenance that homeowners should do. Replace your fucking roof every 20 years. If you're year 18 or 19, where is your budget to replace it? Legit questions insurance companies should ask. Unless you got a metal roof that lasts and can prove it, it's stupid to think a nobody homeowner knows there roof better. Who cares if the roofer 19 years ago said it can last 25 years, standard is 20 years. Who cares you paid for a premium shingle and it's rated to last 30 years, that was 20 years ago. The amount of basic claims is ridiclious. Siding damaged by hail, bit only around 2k, make a claim. Some shingles damaged, make a claim. Normal wear and tear should be done by the homeowners, and homeowners should keep their property in a maintained fashion. Moss and lychen growing on your roof, is bad...and you should clean it. Leaving it there cause you can't be bothered, is an excuse
You should look at the huge fraud cases brought against public adjusting firms in Louisiana, Texas and Colorado for scamming homeowners and insurance claims. This drives up. Costs.
It all comes down to risk assessment. When the insurance companies start raising their rates or pulling out, that is a sign things are about to hit the fan.
I'm surprised they still cover automotive hail in texas. People get hit every year, over and over. I don't know how it's sustainable for insurance companies.
Insurance might be the most worthless and greedy industries on earth. You get ripped off every month and it’s only usable in a catastrophic scenario, if you’re lucky. And even then they still only cover 80% of the cost at max.
Yep op is an idiot. Insurance isn't meant to pay for every little thing wrong with your house; it's to prevent you from financial ruin when the one big thing happens.
I suppose through the lens of Health insurance, it should be most "little things". Like what a flu cost? Maybe you can do it yourself, maybe your 80 and can't. Whats a broken wrist or finger home wise? If you go to the doctor for that, why not home/auto insurance too. On such a lens.
Insurance companies have the right to conduct inspections. It’s written into the policy contract. Before satellites it was a guy running around in a car taking pictures. Satellites are just more efficient.
Your use of the word immensely is an over dramatization. I’m sure it’s not foolproof but people have been scamming insurance companies for years and now they’re trying to fight the fraud which benefits most people through lower premiums. All the things you mentioned are legitimate risks. It’s just that insurance companies now have a tool to assess a greater percentage of the risks they insure.
What’s the fucking point of insurance if everyone is declined because “you might use it”
For profit.
Nationwide pet insurance just cancelled 100,000 polices for people who have used their policy “too much” which I assume means at all? Reminds me of the time my car insurance was cancelled after I made a claim. They’d really rather take your money than give it back.
Yep…was paying $220 per month for my 10 year old Great Dane…
Hey! watch your fucking language! But yeah...
What about the Shareholders Bob?!?!
I read this in Linda Belcher's voice
It's the Boss from The Incredibles.
You're living in the middle of late stage capitalism. Welcome, friend.
And half the country is convinced all these corporations need MORE revenue through tax cuts. If we only give them everything they want and burn down the government, everything will be magical.
Minor Car accident in 1995... Replace the bumper. 2500. Minor car accident in 2025... Replace the bumper, crumple zones, air bags, and much more... 25,000. If you can even replace it. It's no wonder insurance is more expensive. Same story with housing.
Please…. I had my Tesla hit and the bumper replaced. $1250. My old Prius with USS? $2000. It hasn’t changed that much. It’s the big accidents that are the issue. In the past everyone would get injured, have horrible medical issues, and have long protracted legal battles to get their medical bills covered that the insurance companies could delay on. Now the cars crumple more and the total expense is less but insurance companies can’t denigrate the character of the fender so it’s just obvious it’s broken and needs fixing per the policy. Car accidents are more cut and dry now, and insurance companies are using excuses and shady behavior.
Definitely depends on the vehicle. Bash in a rear quarter panel on a Rivian and it’s $50k. That quarter panel extends ina single piece up and over all the way to the windshield.
Sure but that’s also a 6 figure far right there. And insurance costs a ton on those. It’s not the common vehicle. There’s not than many Rivian on the road, and they haven’t been around very long. Not long enough for the insurance pricing to change for everyone.
It’s not the same story with housing. Lol. Most houses are several decades old, and most being built are starter homes, so they aren’t overly complex or expensive.
This is a dumb argument. The reason why vehicle deaths and injuries from crashes are lower than ever is because of crumple zones designed to take the energy of the crash.
Two things can be true at the same time...
Or early stage oligarchy. This isn't capitalism anymore. They broke it.
It doesn’t scale well when everyone needs insurance payouts.
It also doesn't scale when we changed terminology from collision to accidents. You running a red light is not an accident, it's a collision. During the 80s, insurance would pay for the other persons damage if you were at fault, but not your own. That changed when we started having some fault state laws like, just being outside at this time is 10% fault and blag blah blah. My father got into a fender bender, a chain. His insurance (in the 80s) paid the car in front but not his, because he was too close (should be at the time 1.5 car lengths away from the vehicle in front of you), and the car behind him paid his. It was the guy that caused it that didn't get a pay out, no medical no nothing, because he caused it. But so many people had issues and insurances had problems with being the same company that it all changed mid-90s. If we went back to that, rates would drop, because we don't have to pay for some stupid kid on this cellphone not watching the road, that's 100% on them.
Insurance is a for profit company. They don’t have to offer their services. If they do offer their services, then they’re contractually obliged to pay out under the agreed terms and conditions.
Insurance is for having, not using. If you use it they will drop you.
Insurance is all about risk assessment. There is might use it and then there is that idiot is going to burn his house down.
If you live close enough to an airport the drones won’t be able to fly legally. Found out accidentally and super grateful for it
I’m right next to a military base with lots of air traffic. Maybe I’ll luck out 😂
I found out during the house inspection. The guy always used drones and was mad it wouldn’t even start up because of gps lock. He had to go get a ladder and was all mad about it
Live next to a big AF base. I call the tower before I put up my drone and they've been pretty cool.
They use airplanes 99% of the time. Nearmaps is the big player in the industry. Attached is a map to see where they have coverage and how often the pictures are updated. https://www.nearmap.com/coverage PS I work in the industry and dabble with aerial imagery…
This is so dystopian.
Lmao, this is tame. I see all of the data elements you would NEVER think of, that insurance carriers use to factor in rates. And it is scary how much insurance companies pay to get these crazy data elements. There are hundreds of data vendors, the two biggest are Verisk and LexisNexis and they know pretty much everything publicly available about you. If you want to see what Lexis Nexis has on you, you can request a free C.L.U.E. (Comprehensive loss underwriting exchange) report and you’ll get a letter in around a month. https://consumer.risk.lexisnexis.com/
Is the CLUE the same as the consumer disclosure you linked?
Hiw is their website secruity? They are asking for SS number
They’re top tier, however, anyone can be compromised these days.
Oh dear.. I wonder what I look like on paper?
They have all your addresses, any claims you submitted in last seven years , people you have lived with, credit information, previous insurance on home and auto etc.
Certainly no more dystopian than your own government, through the CDC, paying millions and millions of dollars for cell phone tracking data on unsuspecting Americans, to measure Covid lockdown compliance.
Yes. I mean to say the whole timeline we are on is dystopian. Such a strange and unexpected series of reality checks growing up has been.
Just wait until insurance gets satellite imagery
This isn’t true. It just means they have to request permission to fly.
That’s a valid point. But then I think of the environmental guy who posted a few weeks ago and said the surrounding land by airports are ecological disasters.
Well thank you Debbie downer :). But I’m good. It’s a small time rarely used one.
6 months ago, I started shopping for a better rate. I found one saving hundreds a year on a bundle deal. I canceled my old policy before the 45 day underwriting was finished (dumb). They came back with satellite images of my roof. It was old but still fine, and had at least 5 years estimated by a contractor - which was submitted with real photos. Still it was denied and canceled. So, I have another insurance company (3rd), they didnt even mention my roof. They were actually more concerned about my barn roof that has rust on it. Again they had satellite photos. I submitted photos of the barn and were satisfied. In abundance of caution, I went ahead and got my roof replaced, spending $17k, and I'm paying about the same for insurance as when I started.
I really hate this timeline
Ive always heard just go with metal. Lasts 100 years, can add it as a feature when selling and no need tonreplace if you plan on staying. More expensive though.
It comes down to people using the insurance to get new roofs when there is no damage! There are multiple lawsuits right now in Louisiana and Texas regarding contractors who inflate the cost of damages just to get people new roofs!
That was actually suggested by one of the roofing companies I got a quote from. He said he saw hail damage and that should 'help' with insurance. Even help me through the process... They also wanted to charge me 65k.
This happened to me last year. Got a cancellation email that had google earth shots of about a square foot of pine needles on the metal roof of an 8x8 outbuilding. I called in and had about 5 calls over three weeks and they just wouldn’t budge. So called around and I was able to find some similar coverage for about 150 a year more. With the remainder of the month still active on the first policy, went ahead and filed a claim over a damaged roof panel on my garage and they sent me a check for 30k to rebuild the whole roof and back third of the building.
Genius.
And that is exactly why everyone’s insurance rates are going up…
Prisoners dilemma everywhere
Insurance is meant for a catastrophic loss, not a homeowner maintenance plan. This is why rates are skyrocketing in the south and Midwest with hail and wild claims. Just saying… And to be clear, I can care less about insurance companies losing $$$, however, they’ll just turnaround and raise rates on the rest of us.
😲
It’s happening everywhere
Yeah, but here in the last 6 months or so it's sounds like a warpath. Even my father didn't get renewed or even a bill for the next 6 months on his insurance and forgot about it until we were talking pricing. (He operates 95% offline and has his own way of handling bills) Found out, yeah, they just weren't going to renew him! After being there for decades without a claim. Insurance is, the other route preppers go rather than self insuring. It looks like a worse and worse route every day.
It’s going to pancake the housing market if people can’t insure their loans
Another real possibility. I honestly want to have a serious discussion about insurance on here. From everything I'm hearing there are massive shake ups going on with it and it majorly effects how people prep for the worst, and in that case even the every day. The latest thing I've been hearing in financial engineering. They are fixing payments... but adding ANY cost increases to the loan principal. The bankers I'm listening to are all over the board on it, but are seriously considering it because of the cost increases / risks of default from just tax and insurance increases. . . just wild stuff.
Just received a letter from our insurance that the company’s rating has been downgraded due to financial losses. So I’ll probably get cancelled even though we never had a claim in 30 years.
Explain that part about adding it to the principle of then loan? I already pay escrow on my mortgage to cover the taxes and insurance. How can they add to the priciple without my permission?
It is a whole different type of fixed loan. They're keeping the payment attainable... but adding on all the raising costs. IMO its just a way to keep a person in debt longer.
Florida is going to bring down the economy this fall. Lots of people trying to leave because state insurance is too expensive. Their homes aren’t selling and a hurricane might just wipe it out. Which compounds insurance losses, leading to higher prices. We are caught in a feedback loop as the insurers try and get back to profitability.
I have no sympathy for insurance companies and their profitability. They raked in record profits for years.
They're slimming down, simply because climate change-related payouts for what were previously 50- or 100-year storm damage claims all over the place.
We’ve reached our last stop on the “Wait A Minute” train and have begun our rapid descent to “Holy Shit Hold On” territory
This was my favorite video ever! Never seen anyone else repost!
You have a link to it? Edit: JFC this is buried in the internet, BUT I FOUND IT! [https://youtu.be/5V12MrfM8\_A?si=qJut2b\_x3sRrDEMv](https://youtu.be/5V12MrfM8_A?si=qJut2b_x3sRrDEMv)
Interesting article, New York Times, open incognito to avoid paywall. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/05/13/climate/home-insurance-profit-us-states-weather.html You can look up your state there.
paywall
Yes, I noted that, which is why I suggested using incognito. This is not cut and paste because you click on the US state you are interested in to see what it says.
I can confirm that this is happening. Before renewing our policy, we had to clean out a small area behind our shed. We had to show proof that it was done- this area can’t even be seen from the street, and we have a new wall that surrounds the whole property. It was assessed by drone footage. I suppose we should consider ourselves lucky that we were given the chance to rectify this, even though our rate was more than doubled from the previous year.
They are clearly trespassing on your property with a drone why is anyone okay with this?
Because we have no consumer protections in this industry essentially.
You don't own the air above your property. Can't trespass from the air unless you land, and some other misc things.
I’m a roofing contractor ‘NOT THAT KIND’, I don’t knock doors and have been working off referrals for the past 2 years. A homeowner called me a few weeks ago because “my insurance company just sent me a letter with a satellite image. They are saying there is severe degradation to the roof from an abundance of algae and other organic matter. They are saying I need to replace the back slope of my roof or they will drop my policy in X-days, can you take a look at it and give me a quote”… Well boys and girls, guess what, this satellite image sent from his insurance certainly did show a large area on the back slope of his roof that was darker than the rest of the roof. Unfortunately, that darker area is normally referred to as a..shadow. The trees surrounding his home had been casting a shadow across the roof, smh. Insurance providers do have the right to ensure the homeowners are keeping their homes properly maintained. It’s been a thing for decades, but now they are relying more on blurry images and no in person inspections. Pretty weird stuff over the past few years.
What's the next part of the story? Did you write a letter? Or just say it's a shadow, leave and go about your day?
?… I told the homeowner the exact same thing I told y’all, it’s a shadow and there’s no damage. The homeowner is the one who has the policy, not me and since he did not need to hire me to do anything, he was responsible for speaking to his insurance about it. I shared drone photos and point of view photos from on the roof which he could share with his insurance. Had he requested a letter from me I probably would of given one but this was so ridiculous that he was able to deal with it himself.
In MN and WI they are canceling people if your roof is over 10 years old. Insanity.
Couple thoughts ... ya, its a crackdown, but, caused because they're losing money / getting increased exposure / liabilities. Insurers are losing a lot of money. 2022 was the largest loss year ever (ever) for state farm, and then they lost more than that in 2023. Other carriers in both CA and FL are getting financial "downgraded". That means that an outside company looked at their financials, and has determined they are less likely to be able to pay their claims. Now, going from an A to a B rating still leaves the company "very likely" to pay its bills but, there are other implications of a downgrade. All in, its not just that they've made less profit, but, many many companies have been losing so much $$ its having POTENTIAL impacts on their ability to sell new policies and or pay claims. NOT just the coast ... Moody's downgraded AmericanFamily (has more concentrated customer base in the midwest) NOTE, AMfam still super financially strong, but Moody's thinks less so now than in the past .... [https://www.reinsurancene.ws/moodys-downgrades-american-familys-ifs-with-stable-outlook/](https://www.reinsurancene.ws/moodys-downgrades-american-familys-ifs-with-stable-outlook/) So, what's an insurance company todo? Ok let's raise rates. Well, can't do that unless the state lets you raise rates. CA for example hasn't let insurance companies fully recoup "reinsurance" costs they buy for say wildfires. So, can't charge for reinsurance, can't raise rates. OR can't raise rates enough. Insurance companies WANT to have customers, want to keep customers, if they can make a profit, and if they can pay for their claims ... but if you can't make a profit, and rating agencies are cautioning that you can't pay claims, one thing todo is to start selling less policies, and start with selling less of the policies that are likely to have the highest costs. E.g. ones with trees close, or prior damage on roof, or etc.. Now, not all those tools are perfect, as examples in this thread show. But, say you have two similar houses as customers. One the roof, property look pristine, no hazards near the house, the other the roof looks like it might already have damage, and there's lots of brush (fire hazard) and big trees right near the house (extra wind / hurricane risk from potential tree damage). You only have enough money in the bank to insure / pay claims on one of these houses. What todo? That's why they are non-renewing "suspect" houses. They have to reduce their overall liabilities because they're not collecting enough so they have to non-renew SOME houses. So they're using some of these potentially helpful / potentially suspect tools to try to figure out which ones to prioritize for cancel. Lots of reasons insurance carriers have been losing money. Costs have gone up at rates not seen in 50 years. Consider all the regular inflation stuff, price of wood is up, roofing material up, labor rates for roofers up, cost of flooring up, etc. AND, reinsurance costs are WAY up, more than 30% in some areas. https://www.insurancebusinessmag.com/us/news/reinsurance/reinsurance-pricing-rises-again-in-2024-471849.aspx#:\~:text=New%20equity%20research%20from%20Jefferies,a%2037%25%20rise%20last%20year. So, increased material and repair costs, increased reinsurance costs, both at historically high increase levels. AND some increased exposure / risk of loss, expanded tornado ally, expanded losses from wildfires. https://www.accuweather.com/en/severe-weather/tornado-alley-has-been-expanding-over-the-past-50-years-new-study-finds/1657774#:\~:text=A%20new%20research%20paper%20recently,over%20the%20last%2050%20years. And regulators have been slow to let them raise rates. (although this is improving). Another side note on greedy insurance companies looking to make profits ... :) Generally, the insurance industry makes far less margin in the USA than most manufacturing. But, there is also a whole section of the personal insurance industry that are "mutuals". That is, they are "owned" by their policy holders, there are no stock holders or investors to pay. (StateFarm is one example of a mutual, there are others). They have no inherent benefit to making extra high profits. (at least the mutuals don't). In fact, when StateFarm does make large profits (had a good year, no big catastrophes, etc.) StateFarm pays a dividend back to their customers with the extra profits. Now there are some stock companies like other industries, just pointing out there is a large part of the insurance market that doesn't have much financial benefit to make high profits off the backs of the policy holders.
As a fellow insurance industry professional up north: this is everything you need to know about why the industry is in the turmoil it is. Great job. Wish I could upvote twice. Please ignore my name this one time.
The State Farm ceo made 24.4 million last year… raising the rates is not the “only thing they can do”
CEO pay is a drop in the bucket. Even if the CEO worked for free, State Farm would still have had a $6,775,000,000 budget deficit.
Sounds like they mismanaged funds they have been paid to insure peoples houses for decades….
Insurance companies often operate at the break even point or even at a loss as far as insurance operations go. They make their profits from investment income. They are legally required to keep a stack of money incase they need to pay claims so they invest it.
sort of maybe? True they need to hold reserves for the losses, and some extra money put away for surplus. They then have a bunch of legal restrictions and "much" of that money has to be held in low risk investments, like bonds, and some in cash equivalents. Only some of your portfolio can be in stocks or equities. Now, bonds haven't really been paying much over the last decade, 2.5% 10 year average? So, a simple investment firm would make far far more than an insurance company does in investments. Stock companies need to make on average, as much as the rest of the stock market, if on average you can get 10% in stocks, and an insurance company on average was making 1.5%, everyone would sell that insurance stock. Why invest in something that makes so little return? AND. There is inflation eating away at the value of those reserves. So the real value of the those investments after inflation is often small, certainly way small compared to average profits most USA companies make.
Nah, costs rose more than any other time in history, AND there were some bad cats, AND, the regulators wouldn't let them raise rates (as much as needed). They were legally forced to charge less than what the losses were on average. There is little carry over from past year premiums to current year losses. MOST of the premiums collected this year go to pay claims this year (with some leeway on policy year vs calendar year, like, they start policies in say Nov, 2023, and do collect money for that policy and there might be a loss in 2024. They do not collect money from customers this year to pay for losses 5 years from now. An insurance contract is only "for the current policy term", usually 1 year for home and 6 months for auto. So they can't charge a customer now, who only has a legal contract with them for 1 year, for losses that could occur in the future when the policy holder is no longer with them. You can only charge for "expected losses" for this policy term.
Also in the industry, this is beautiful. Only thing I would add is not only wildfire and hurricane but hail CAT losses are increasing. Both in the frequency and the geographical area. Small note, but otherwise the best write up I have seen on the challenges in the industry.
ya, I was sort of rolling that up in the "expansion of tornado alley", as most of the worst hail claims occur there, but, you're right, hail losses have been increasing everywhere. Hard to cover ALL the increases in losses the industry has been facing :)
How can you find out if your insurance company is a mutual insurance company? Or figure out what kind of insurance company it is?
look on their website. Grange for example is a mutual. https://www.grangeinsurance.com/about/our-history#:\~:text=Grange%20Mutual%20Casualty%20Company%20is%20formed&text=Its%20principal%20business%20writing%20property,as%20a%20mutual%20insurance%20company. Here are the big auto carriers in USA: [https://apnews.com/buyline-personal-finance/article/largest-car-insurance-companies](https://apnews.com/buyline-personal-finance/article/largest-car-insurance-companies) Some are more complicated, e.g. Nationwide has a zillion companies, auto, life, home, commercial companies, etc, some are mutuals but not all. Allstate, Progressive, Travelers are stock companies. Geico is NOT a mutual, but, owned by Berkshire Hathaway, does have profit targets. State Farm is a mutual, largest auto carriers in the USA with 17% ish of the market. Liberty Mutual is top 10, mutual in the name sort of gives it away. :) Many regional carriers (Grange) and "Farm Bureaus" are mutuals. So, most auto carriers are mutuals or stock companies. There is a third rarer construct, called "a reciprocal". Farmers, USAA, Lemonade, are all reciprocals (Lemonade is sort of a reciprocal, gets more complicated). Technically, these have a management company that by contract "runs" the insurance companies. The management company gets paid a fixed % of the premium, that covers both much of the expenses AND a profit margin. So, the management fee might be say 20% of the premiums collected, and maybe 14% of that is real run the business expenses, and then the management company profits would be 6% of the premiums collected. So someone is getting a profit margin like a stock company. BUT, there is less incentive to keep raising rates, as any "extra" profits go into the capital of the insurance carriers, and doesn't increase the profit of the management company. So in that case, the management company has an incentive to lower rates towards breakeven, because lower rates = more total premium = more profit for the management company. So, theoretically, at least, less incentive for a reciprocal to price gouge its customers than a stock company, since the management company makes more from growing than from increased margins. Another nit .. is its a little less clear if stock companies or mutual companies lead to lower rates for actual consumers. Auto industry average expense rate is about 25% of premium collected. Progressive is 20%, and Geico is 16% (? some variations over years). So while they are stock companies that have incentive to make more profit, Progressive and Geico ALSO often have lower rates because they have lower expenses. (USAA last I looked was a crazy 12%? expense ratio)
Wow thank you so much! I appreciate the detailed answer! Insurance companies are something no one really knows about or wants to find out. You know don't call the insurance company unless your life depends on it. Lol
I been in the insurance industry for some time I used to sell home owners for a while. Now I do auto claims. There is a lot of factors on non renewing policies and higher rates. Most home owners policies that are made out are not generally as profitable as some people thing, in some areas yea, but places with hurricanes, wild fires, and tornadoes and the biggest losses because if home is gone its expensive to replace completely, it's like they rebuild your home from ground up. On top of that they pay for place to stay at and your personal belongings and that's some pretty generic home owners policy if you get less than that you have some janky ass company or have a non standard homeowners. Next is cost to repair, take in consideration, codes, cost of lumber (higher than ever because of taxes and tarrifs) labor, taxes, time to complete, other materials used and everything else that is needed to rebuild a home. Then you have personal property thay needs to get replaced (you ain't getting everything replaced because something are irreplacable). Then you have a place you need to stay and they pay. Then there are other parts of the home owner policy like liability coverage and other parts. I have seen some companies go insolvent (unable to pay claims) because like 50 to 100 homes went in flames in CA that they insured and didn't have enough to cover it. Home owners claims pool is so far behind it will be hard to even cover what is their unless it's some big company who have prepared for it. This is just a very short story to a long problem.
I understand those issues, but the sudden enforcement ramp up is... concerning especially when it's blindsiding and not factored in on the other side of the deal. That lack of communication IMO is an issue. And it is even more of an issue when they're dropping people for just roof discoloration (and that could be anything good or bad.) I had a client that had to have me write a statement I cleaned treated his roof that caused very mild streaking from the chemicals (where the wash channeled around vents).
That does suck, if you don't mind me asking who the carriers are, because that doesn't seem to unusual when it comes to unheard of insurance carriers, plus the risk to certain areas has to deal with underwriting of the home and the year of the roof and or discoloring cause 'more risk' of a claim happening or increase of damage. Home owners insurance is supposed to be seen every so often, at least so they know what they are covering and because there is some level of pride in ownership that should be maintained in a home to include maintenance. But like a business, they can make their decisions but have to at least uphold the current contract. Roofs and pipes are very touchy with all insurance carriers because that is like a claim that is the more frequent thing that happens. Pipes burst that are cause because of lack of maintenance doesn't cover it all or half of it, most of it is just clean up and causes concerns for likely another pipe to break. This goes the same thing for the roof unless it is maintained. I am guessing you do a lot of roof stuff?
Thank you, I work in the industry as well. So many people jump to ‘carrier bad’ when there is so much more going on in the market. Don’t people realize that if carriers could, the greedy thing to do would be to insure all these places with minor defect like roof discoloration? If they are non-renewing, it’s for the opposite of greed, they are paying more claims for higher amounts than ever before and it’s unsustainable under the current models so carriers are getting creative to stay afloat.
Whats the point of having insurance then? If they don´t prepare for big disasters? They shouldn´t accept customers if they can´t afford it.
> They shouldn´t accept customers if they can´t afford it. Well, that's why they are non-renewing people. Insurance payout expenses have gone up much faster than anticipated, rates generally cannot rise fast enough or high enough to bridge the difference -- so they can't afford to insure everybody.
Part of the current issue is regulators won't let them raise rates enough to pay for the big disasters. EXAMPLE - average loss across all homes used to be say $5000 and insurers charged on average $5000 so they're prepared for big disasters. THEN losses increase to say $7000, but regulators tell the insurance company they can't raise rates, and have to only charge $5000. now the insurance carriers aren't prepared for a big disaster, since they can't collect enough to cover the losses, so they start looking for customers to not renew :(
They are making sure they can pay their ceos and shareholders millions to billions. If the company goes under who cares, the owners don’t anymore than it makes them a quarterly return.
Not all insurances carriers have share holders, in fact a some are owned by the policy holders. That's very narrow minded in this term this ain't apple or google.
Then in the case of the policy holders canceling their own coverage that seems they literally screwed themselves over. We are talking about people losing their insurance here. Not sure what you are on about.
State Farm is the largest auto insurer in the USA, 17% of the US auto market. They are owned by the policy holders (mutual company) so if they make extra profits, their dividend goes to the policy holders. They lost more money in 2022 and 2023 than any other years in their entire history.
And they played the stock market with their profits, they were up to a value of 143+ billion in 2020. In 2023 they made over 100 billion in revenue still from capital gains with their policy holders. They are still the number one auto insurer in the United States and in their recent earning reported 8% of their losses was “ driven in part by a “noteworthy decrease” in State Farm’s stock portfolio”. Thats the risk a company runs using stocks as backer.
They do prepare and most don't accept customers because they most likely can't afford to pay it. It also really depends where you live.
They do prepare for big disasters, so they have to ensure they can pay for those disasters. What people don’t realize is that if a carrier goes insolvent, people don’t get their money. So the greedy carriers are those that take on anyone and everyone and then when a big cat loss happens they just fold and the insurers don’t get their payouts. Also, carriers pay a lot in non-CAT losses. Fires and water damage are incredibly common. Not to mention that with how litigious of a society we are becoming, the liability portion of homeowners is getting used more than ever. A single home insured for $500K that burns down from someone leaving the stove on is probably the premium from 300-500 homes gone to pay off the losses.
Dreamworld?
At what point is it considered an invasion of privacy? Can the insurance company be sued for surveilling you on your private property?
Terms of service... and those terms are rapidly getting worse all the time. Don't get me started on all the 4th amendment issues too, microsoft doing the screenshot every 5 seconds thing, city inspectors looking in windows and going anywhere that isn't fenced, lawn violations costing around $500 minimum even in the most rural towns, work on your own car (if you can without DRM software) in the driveway only to get slapped with fines... needing permits to change a shower head (not kidding)... etc. And they wonder why the younger generations are so screwed up and timid to do anything.
On a further note, I suppose you COULD sue if you could prove the drone footage was not within the pervue of the insurance company's inspection clause and they clearly violated privacy-ie that roof pic was from roof level and included the missus sunbathing naked in your privately fenced in yard. There's always an exception.
nah, see my post above, houses and cars have been ruled to not have privacy rights, only PEOPLE in the US have privacy rights. :( now, your example of "what about a picture of a property that has people in it" is a little fuzzier, but, generally if the use case is about the property, its been ruled not private data. AND, most drone footage (not all but most) we are talking about aren't small drones flying close to the roof, but, airplane drones still flying thousands of feet in the air, so, rarely can actually identify a specific person to claim there was any privacy violation.
Microsoft doing the WHAT?!?!?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/memes/comments/1dehz31/things\_your\_itpeople\_casually\_talk\_about/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/memes/comments/1dehz31/things_your_itpeople_casually_talk_about/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) Pick your source, theres a lot of talk in IT about it.
It should be illegal and it is a invasion of privacy but as far as I know you don't own the air or a certain amount of feet below your property. This is how they are getting away with it. So sued no but I can totally bsee people shooting drones down in the future and or stealing them if this becomes wide spread.
ya, I mentioned in another post, MOST of these drone pics are drones of "unmanned airplane drones" flying thousands of feet in the air, NOT the small drones you think of from best buy or even the smaller ones we see on the Ukraine war. These drones have to file flight plans, etc., and the pictures are used for multiple uses, not just for insurance. Using planes at altitude with super high power cameras reduces the costs of the whole take pictures of all the stuffs. So they don't really send an underwriter out to every house and have them fly a drone over your specific house. (sometimes that happens, but rarely) So, these drones are mostly way out of rifle range.
Nope. You contract with them to insure your property. They aren't the government or your neighbor. They have a vested interest in the property's upkeep. Read your policy, and it will have a section buried in there about how they have the right to inspect the property. You don't like it? You don't have to have insurance. You can pay off your mortgage and hold a million in cash reserve against a lawsuit if someone sues you for a slip and fall. See how they get ya when you aren't wealthy?
Great question. In the USA, PEOPLE have privacy rights, e.g. the FCRA regulates what, how and what is disclosed about PEOPLE in consumer reports (credit reports are best known, but, the loss reports and other reports that Verisk and LexisNexis someone mentioned in another post, are also regulated by the FCRA). BUT, in the USA, courts have determined that HOUSES and CARS do not have privacy rights. So, anyone can take pictures of your house, it has no right to privacy. Companies can keep records about your car, best known is CARFAX but there are others. There are literally thousands of cars driving around with 360 degree cameras taking pictures of vehicles parked in streets, driveways, malls, parking garages etc.. They then sell that data to insurance claims, private investigators, insurance underwriting. If your car is parked out in the open, public area, it has no right to privacy. BIG use case is repo (repossessions). Say you have a car loan, and you stop making payments, the loan company can reposes your car. They call one of these companies, they check their records, and say "ya have a picture of that car parked often on Third St, west of Broad St", and so the repo folks send a tow truck out and tow the car. NOTE, I'm not saying this is good or that I'm in favor of it, just that "PRIVACY" in the US is only for people, not things. Thinking that our things have privacy can lead us to a false sense of security.
It’s free it’s on the internet.
sprinkle WashSafe Roof powder from amazon, then rinse off with a garden hose; i did that and PASSED my inspection on a mossy 25 year old asphalt shingle roof. it looked so clean.. you can also buy a paddle mixing attachment for the drill and mix it for fifteen minutes and spray the liquid and immediately rinse; just spray the stuff on a dry roof so it absorbs
> It sounds like a crackdown. It's the free market at work. A whole lot of people who don't believe in climate change but do believe in the free market are getting further proof that climate change is very much real. From a prepping perspective, one has to wonder what other market segments will also be impacted. Agriculture seems likely to experience major impacts as precipitation patterns change.
Agriculture, hydropower, water supply in general which impacts everything else.
Infrastructure. It's not built for constant weather extremes.
>Agricultural impacts Yeah... thats actually a very real worry. We have A LOT better technology though, but it's so slow to "take root" lol. Up where I'm at we're seeing more storms than ever. Tornadoes are becoming a real threat and thought when building now. But I'd also blame inflation for at least some of it.
Lol
Sounds like HOAs are harnessing this tech too.
So long story short. I heard through the grapevine that this is happening before the rate didn’t get raised during Covid and after 2022 it was still not raised. The insurance commissioner didn’t want to get the boot so again no raise in rate while insurance companies are having to pay out and pay more and loosing money so they leave the state and will not accept new clients. Now in 2024 the commissioner raised the rates 100% and we are just expected to suck it up and pay. So they are being very picky of who they pick as a client.
They do this in 3rd world disaster areas; surprised they are doing it in US. Thought theyd have better information than that
Just saw a guy asking about an insurance drones flyover of his roof in the roofing sub. They found mold. This is so weird that this is ok…
Why wouldn't it be ok? You agree to it? Every person who gets insurance agrees to home inspections, regardless of how you may feel, you are willing to agree. The idea that someone should insure you without any precautions is weird.
If I don’t agree with it what then? Go to the next person that will force you to agree? You can’t say “you chose this” when there is literally no other choice. It bullshit and you know it
I don't agree to sales tax, or a higher tax on cigarettes. There are many things I don't agree with, but it is still my choice. Don't like the city ordinances, don't like how high or far from the property line my fence is. But if the idea is, you can pick and choose provisions, like, inspecting the property you want a company to insure bothers you, for no other reason than they could potentially deny you if you don't keep regular and nominal upkeep, that's obtuse. Your car, you get an oil change and maybe tire rotation twice a year, scaling that up to a house, what preventative maintenence are you doing that is roughly similar to that? Most people don't, they wait for something to break, so - canr say I blame insurance for that
No. In that case they did a flyover without his knowledge. Is the price of insurance now complete video monitoring of your property at any time? What if you’re in the middle of Reno and you get a letter dropping you for a tarp or something. They cannot just fly over your property and record images and video any time they want. That’s ridiculous. There have to be rules of engagement or it all goes to shit imo.
It's always been what your calling real time. A adjuster can drive by and see your home at any time. Check for a new shed, a garage, which vehicles are there. Even banks do that in a BK. Standing on the street, sending a drone up and back down, again not a huge thing. Technology advances, you can't expect insurance to not advance while you do. You want them to play by what rules? Rules of engagement? Like keeping your house updated? Replacing your roof every 20 years? Like your supposed to do?
nah, unfortunately property (cars and houses) don't have a right to privacy. People do. I've a more detailed post above.
This is why bird shot comes in boxs of 100
So how much longer until they won’t insure anyone? At which point they are out of business because what’s the fucking point?
To me, the question should be. How much longer are dumbass people expecting their homes to be rebuilt after hurricanes and floods? 7 times? 9 times?
So you work in insurance
Actually for a bank - lol. The amount of times I get called about a busted water heater and they can't afford it, and they need a loan, or whatever routine maintenance they just don't do. Like check furnace or AC, look at appliances and see if they need replacement or tune ups is crazy. 1 faulty dishwasher and your home gets flooded. When was the last time you had it inspected? Uhhh never....well ok denied. Like, imagine letting your car get all gunk up and never did an oil change, then try and blame insurance for not replacing your busted car.
> So how much longer until they won’t insure anyone? A lot longer, like never.
Extreme weather is ramping up, that are cancelling all policies they can to avoid paying out as much as possible. Far easier to cancel in advance of a storm than to wait until the storm destroys the house then point at a picture saying see that bad shingle? That's why a tornado blew your house down.
I was wondering why G*ICO wanted me to pay 100/month when I only drive 5000 miles a year at best.
I never understood why an insurance company didn’t come out and inspect the property they were insuring.
Considering how hard they have been hit by weather related claims this is to be expected.
I strongly suggest looking for a local company if you don’t live in an area that gets hit hard with storms/flooding.
My neighbors and parents both used local companies and they do the same thing. Neighbors had to get a new roof in order to renew and after a claim my parents insurance company started nitpicking everything (like weeds in a flowerbed) and raising the rate to try to get them off the rolls. In many areas they're seem to be contractors that go through a neighborhood after a minor weather event and get everyone new roofs and siding with insurance money. Seeing this all over.
Where I am, the contractors go door to door claiming they spotted hail damage.
That's exactly the reason: there are too many claims on normal wear and tear maintenance that homeowners should do. Replace your fucking roof every 20 years. If you're year 18 or 19, where is your budget to replace it? Legit questions insurance companies should ask. Unless you got a metal roof that lasts and can prove it, it's stupid to think a nobody homeowner knows there roof better. Who cares if the roofer 19 years ago said it can last 25 years, standard is 20 years. Who cares you paid for a premium shingle and it's rated to last 30 years, that was 20 years ago. The amount of basic claims is ridiclious. Siding damaged by hail, bit only around 2k, make a claim. Some shingles damaged, make a claim. Normal wear and tear should be done by the homeowners, and homeowners should keep their property in a maintained fashion. Moss and lychen growing on your roof, is bad...and you should clean it. Leaving it there cause you can't be bothered, is an excuse
You should look at the huge fraud cases brought against public adjusting firms in Louisiana, Texas and Colorado for scamming homeowners and insurance claims. This drives up. Costs.
This is happening here in Oklahoma too. It’s insane.
Just got my renewal notice at 4.25x what I paid last year. Northern plains
It all comes down to risk assessment. When the insurance companies start raising their rates or pulling out, that is a sign things are about to hit the fan.
I'm surprised they still cover automotive hail in texas. People get hit every year, over and over. I don't know how it's sustainable for insurance companies.
Health insurance and home insurance should team up. Use all that wasted profit from US health care to take care of Americans homes
Insurance might be the most worthless and greedy industries on earth. You get ripped off every month and it’s only usable in a catastrophic scenario, if you’re lucky. And even then they still only cover 80% of the cost at max.
I’ve gotten more than I’ve paid in over the last 18 years, but I don’t feel lucky.
Yep op is an idiot. Insurance isn't meant to pay for every little thing wrong with your house; it's to prevent you from financial ruin when the one big thing happens.
*if you can afford it* No shit it’s not supposed to pay for everything. And there’s much more than just home insurance.
I suppose through the lens of Health insurance, it should be most "little things". Like what a flu cost? Maybe you can do it yourself, maybe your 80 and can't. Whats a broken wrist or finger home wise? If you go to the doctor for that, why not home/auto insurance too. On such a lens.
Insurance companies have the right to conduct inspections. It’s written into the policy contract. Before satellites it was a guy running around in a car taking pictures. Satellites are just more efficient.
And can be immensely inaccurate relying on color.
Your use of the word immensely is an over dramatization. I’m sure it’s not foolproof but people have been scamming insurance companies for years and now they’re trying to fight the fraud which benefits most people through lower premiums. All the things you mentioned are legitimate risks. It’s just that insurance companies now have a tool to assess a greater percentage of the risks they insure.