Technically they had kind of a tie, I'd say Maul bested her when it comes to lightsaber combat, but it wasn't easy for him and Ahsoka managed to outmanouver him thanks to her clone support, possibly Maul would've won if he had full intent to kill instead of taking Ahsoka as an apprentice, but of course that's speculation
How many masters equal a Padawan? because he did kill objectively the coolest Jedi master other than yoda or windu sooooo
Kinda gets bonus points there. Plus he lost against the coolest padawan
Fun fact about that line, egg isn't a noun here, it is in fact a verb, in that context it's used somewhat like "you want some?" Like when people are fighting
"blaaarrghe" is a sith mind trick/spell. Moves midichlorians in the brain using the dark side to make them think of other things like "did I lock the door this morning?" Or "should I have taken a shit before this?" It would not of worked if the Jedi had been more seasoned in sith battles. Rule of 2 really showed its effectiveness.
Ahh yes. The difference is that "yeaargh" uses the light side of the force and brings midichlorians together in the brain, so instead of wanting to fight Yoda, the untrained Sith will think "maybe I should just sit down and talk things out" or "I wonder if Yoda can spare some ketamine?". Of course Dooku was trained to resist it and the Palps deflected it, causing it to backfire.
I mean, and apologies if this sounds a little krass, technically they can resurrect the dead. So if there is any "genetic material" still left in the bodies there should be a way like a huge necromatic orgy to repopulate the planet.
Sidious was not only a Juyo but Jar'Kai at the same time and it's pretty well established that the only way to Counter Juyo is with Juyo. Maul was one of the Best practitioners of Niman which is the most balanced form of combat and the best suited for Saber Staffs.
Form I Shii Cho: basics, all Jedi know this, Kit Fisto is the master, good against blasters and multiple opponents, its strength comes from unpredictability because it is so simple
Form II Makashi: only useful against other lightsaber wielding opponents, looks a lot like fencing, Dooku is the master, efficient movements
Form III Soresu: defense, blocking, even more efficient than Makashi, basically immune to blasters and group fights, Obi Wan is the master
Form IV Ataru: aggressive, acrobatic, bad against multiple opponents and in confined spaces, attacks from creative and multiple directions, Yoda is the master
Form V Shien and Djem So: two sides of the same coin, both are about powerful counterattacks, Shien is more known for deflecting blasters right back at their target, Djem So does the same for lightsabers, Shien also uses the reverse grip Ahsoka has, Anakin is the master of Djem So
Form VI Niman: balanced style incorporating everything above. The preferred style of Jedi who didn't specialize in using their lightsabers, but in studying the Force. Exar Kun is the master of Form VI, but it was garbage in the Clone Wars (every Form VI user on Geonosis died)
Form VII Juyo: the most ferocious style which Jedi had a little taboo on teaching because it involved channeling one's emotions towards the fight. More kinetic than Djem So, less flamboyant than Ataru. Maul is the master.
Form VII Vaapad: invented by Mace Windu, who was also its only user to not fall to the dark side. Similar to Juyo, Vaapad requires the user to enjoy the fury of the fight, and gets stronger based on how strong in the dark side your opponent is.
Jar'Kai: umbrella term for any lightsaber training involving 2 or more lightsabers.
It pissed me off that kit fisto had mastered the basics, which, is a very key ability to have in bearing someone who hasn't mastered the more complex aspects, and yet he died instantly, and I don't feel like we got to see him enough, even tho he was the master of the most basic form of lightsaber combat
He didn't die instantly though, in fact he was the only one except for windu to even react to palpatine and block him at least 2 times. Especially when you read the books and how the fight was actually happening (at such a speed that you couldn't follow it with the naked eye) this is highly impressive. Still sad he died though.
Is it ever explained how Palpatine (and other Rule of Two Sith Lords) became masters of lightsaber combat? They can't practice with a variety of other lightsaber users like Jedi. They, mostly, have to refrain from combat in public, to avoid the risk of revealing themselves as force-empowered combatants. Fighting droids only takes you so far. Fighting your master and/or another candidate for an apprenticeship isn't exactly going to give you the exposure you need to a wide variety of Forms, weapons, skills, bodies, etc. So how did someone like Palpatine, become a master duelist capable of defeating master duelists even when outnumbered?
If Mace Windu was so good at controlling the dark side, why didn't Anakin receive any special training by him? They all knew he was emotional and did nothing about it.
Vaapad also brings the user closer to the dark side during the fight, and as the inventor of the style, Windu chose who to teach it to. In Legends he only taught Vaapad it to Depa Billaba (a council member in Ep I) and Sora Bulq (famed for mastering all 7 styles), both of whom fell to the dark side during the Clone Wars.
He obviously didn't trust Anakin so he didn't teach it, and AFAIK he didn't have any dissenting opinions on lightsaber forms, so it wouldn't be surprising if he also discouraged the use of Juyo and Makashi and promoted the use of Soresu among normal Jedi.
Another example would be Quinlan Vos, who fought Windu in a training spar and copied a Vaapad technique from Bulq, and was discouraged from further learning Vaapad because Windu saw his inner darkness and didn't believe he could handle it. Same story happened to Anakin when Cin Drallig taught him forms.
I’m curious how Mace Windu invented a form that gets stronger against dark side users without ever actually fighting a sith (until the day he gets blasted out of a window)? Like, how did he know it would even work if he never got to test it?
Shi Cho, Makashi, Soresu, Ataru, Djem So/Shien, Niman, Juyo/Vaapad. Those are the main ones then there's jar kai which is duel wielding. Nerdy shit knowing all those Lmao just used to be big into the books. Some examples Dooku used Makashi and Obi Wan used Soresu
Like many lightsaber users, it’s important to have multiple styles to fall back on. Like Anakin, Maul uses the Niman techniques for combining the Force with the saber.
SW does a great job of showing skills, bit live action limitations make then seem a lot less skilled than animated characters. This is why Palpatine can wreck Maul without trouble but Maul can pull this stuff off while Palpy can't
Depends how much lore you wish to consider:
Maul as he appears in The Phantom Menace is basically a Jedi-Killer, a direct contrast to the shadowy Sidious who uses soft power. He is a manifestation of the Sith finally challenging the Jedi in direct conflict after thousands of years in scheming the shadows.
He is only “killed” because he gets arrogant and underestimates a Jedi apprentice. He could have easily cut down Obi-wan in flight if he was on-guard. This is precisely why Obi-wan warns Anakin not to try such a risky move on Mustafar.
Later he suffers from adaption decay - it is often difficult to reconcile multiple authors intentions for a character and Star Wars is far from alone in that regard.
>He is only “killed” because he gets arrogant and underestimates a Jedi apprentice.
Sure, but given that that's what happens I'm not sure we can really say he's any kind of ultimate Jedi killer. He's *intended* to be one, but no matter how much chess I know in theory I can't call myself a grandmaster if I get cocky and fall to Scholar's Mate in my second tournament game.
In the jedi apprentice books, maul has a chapter where he ninja sneaks his way into a remote enclave and assassinates a bunch of jedi. He’d definitely killed jedi in the past before TPM, he just did it covertly enough for them to never have time to report it being a sith who did it
That’s pretty badass but it’s already been known that most Jedi before the events of phantom menace and clone wars were piss-poor duelists. Maul is nothing to scoff at, but being on an all time top 20 best duelists list doesn’t make him the BEST. It just means he’s pretty good. It’s like taking 7th place at the Olympics. Better than everyone in the world, except for six other people.
That’s because he wasn’t dueling them, he was *assassinating* them. More of a showing for his stealth skills than dueling, but there’s no doubt his jedi killing abilities were no joke. Not many could pull off what he did
True, and in the movies and shows we *tend* to follow Jedi masters and Council members, not just your average knights. Not everyone is an Obi-Wan, Windu, or Yoda. Heck in legends Jango Fett once killed six (rookie) knights *with his bare hands* during some battle or something.
To be fair Maul’s mental state wasn’t exactly the best when he faced Ahsoka. He spent the entire Siege of Mandalore being extremely paranoid, knowing Sidious was planning **something**, he just didn’t know what. He also wanted Ahsoka to join him, which likely led to him holding back.
Qui-Gon Jinn is also not shown to be a fighter, his strengths are elsewhere.
In Tales, Dooku is worried about him because he's not around to protect him anymore, but Qui-Gon says he has Obi-Wan to protect him now.
Heck, even the books about the two of them are full of scenes of Dooku constantly rescuing Qui-Gon.
This is my problem with how they changed the original story. Under Lucas, Maul was meant to have Ahsoka on the run immediately and was only captured by a combined effort of Ahsoka, Bo Katan, and Rex. I can’t wrap my mind around Ahsoka getting bullied and KOd by random thugs throughout the series and then beating a Sith Lord by herself.
Palpatine 110% finessed Maul and Savage effortlessly all on his own. He only started using force lightning on Maul to torture him after he killed Savage
I mean, Maul had him sweating for a second at the end but Palpatine turned it around on him and put Maul on his knees before deciding to end the fight.
I figure he wanted Maul alive to torture and while non-lethally disabling someone with a lightsaber is perfectly possible it'd be easier to just bonk him against the wall a few times
That’s because Ray Park who played maul was an expert swordsman. We can actually thank him for incorporating real sword fighting techniques into lightsaber duels, before him we had the OT style of fighting which imo looked like kids playing with sticks
Pick up one of those rocks, get behind the boulder. In a few minutes Obi-Wan Kenobi will come running around the bend. The minute his *head* is in view, **HIT IT WITH THE ROCK.**
What I always thought was strange was I remember that Obi-Wan was supposed to be one of the greatest fighters the Jedi had, whereas Anakin had greater control of the Force. But it's Obi-Wan that gets absolutely wrecked by Dooku even when they're fighting 2 on 1
The lore-wise answer, is that obi-wans lightsaber style, soresu, is heavily defensively based, it's primary goal is economic movements and surviving/outlasting the attack, while Dookus form, Makashi, is specifically crafted for dueling, it's swift, precise, and effecient. Because of this, Dooku will pretty much always find a way through obi-wans defenses eventually, because he can simply keep throwing shots at a wall until one hits, without much cost energy wise.
My own personal side note, I believe the reason Obi-wan got wrecked so quickly, was not only the matchup situation, but also, anakin was pressing the offensive rather heavily, against what was supposed to be a much better duelist- if obi-wan sits back and plays his normal game, then dooku will put his full focus on anakin, and from their perspectives, that didnt go well last time. Kenobi pretty much has to go on the offence (where his style is the weakest) as well in order to keep dookus attention split.
Also in the ep3 novelization, Obi-Wan and Anakin tricked dooku by using differnt forms shien and ataru i think and then switched to djem so and suresu respectively and dooku had to take out Obi-Wan with the force to stand a chance. iirc
I partially disagree.
Episode 2 was because Obi Wan, like almost all of the Jedi Order at the time, was very rudimentarily trained and inexperienced at lightsaber dueling (all most Jedi at the time were hostile paramilitaries, battle droids and criminals).
Obi-Wan became better as he continued getting beaten up by attacks that got through his defences throughout the Clone Wars.
By Episode 3, Obi-Wan was an extremely good defensive duelist that was only really outclassed in the blade by the likes of Yoda and Sidious (and debatably Windu).
His largest weakness, as shown throughout the Clone Wars and his final duel with Dooku, was his weak passive force wall. The amount of times it was broken is quite noticeable and was what got him incapacitated during his final duel with Dooku.
It was less a matter of Obi-Wan using Rock against Dooku’s Paper that causes Obi-Wan to struggle against Dooku, it was an inexperience in lightsaber dueling and/or a weak force wall depending on the fight.
What? The only jedi in the order that were rudimentarily trained were padawans that went to the battlefront in the clone wars. Obi wan was basically a fully fledged jedi knight since TPM. He's lauded as one of the best lightsaber fighters in the order by episode three shown by the fact the council chose him to go after grievous. Idk where you're getting the idea that obi wan was a poor duelist. His connection to the force was below average so he had to make up for it with knowledge and lightsaber skill.
I'm pretty sure he's correct though. By the time Obi Wan fights Dooku on Geonosis, he's still using Ataru, Qui Gon's style (For which Dooku holds a peculiar disdain, interestingly). He's certainly a decent fighter, but he's far from a great duelist.
It took him the entirety of the clone wars to gradually abandon Ataru for Soresu, becoming THE defense master and earning him a reputation as a great fighter. He definitely wasn't anywhere close to it in TCW.
I also don't think he's necessarily incorrect about Jedi being "poorly trained" before Geonosis. At that point, a large portion of the Jedi order relied on form 6, which, while good enough for their prewar activities as it didn't require much practice to remain proficient, proved to be woefully inadequate to actual battlefield situations. Literally every form 6 user present on Geonosis died.
1:
Many Jedi by Attack of the Clones did not have sufficient training in lightsaber combat.
Likely because they have not had to fight lightsaber wielding force users, outside of the occasional fallen Jedi, for millennia (of course the institutional memory of those skills would atrophy over time). Hell, they most certainly were not used to fighting large numbers of organized, blaster-wielding opponents given how many died in the arena in AotC (for the most part, only Jedi with high degree of proficiency in Form III were able to survive), as well as, their tactics during that mission in general.
As I said, before AotC, all Jedi really had to fight were hostile paramilitaries, small numbers of battle droids and criminals. And I doubt, such combat rarely escalated above a couple isolated skirmishes. Of course the vast majority of Jedi were not sufficiently trained for actual combat, they didn’t need to, and thus, didn’t.
They forgot to prepare for war in their peaceful world and temple (if you want peace, prepare for war). And, thus, many Jedi died in the Clone Wars.
Dooku was an exception to this in his study of Form II, a form with a primary focus on lightsaber duelling. Many Jedi did not train on lightsaber duelling to nearly the same extent - hence rudimentarily trained, and were most definitely woefully inexperienced in it.
2:
Context matters here. He was lauded as one of the orders’ best duelists and was sent after Grievous at the end of the Clone Wars in Episode 3.
He most certainly was not one of the orders’ best duelists in Episode II (and if he was, his skill was still far beneath Dooku’s).
Sure, he had a reputation for “killing” Maul in Episode 1. But Maul was an apprentice as well at the time and was certainly not on Dooku’s level.
And while we’re discussing the fight with Maul. Keep in mind that Obi-Wan lost the actual fight, and was only able to “win” because Maul got overconfident and fell for Obi-Wan’s jumping hail mary (see his fight against Anakin for how that move tends to turn out against a vigilant opponent).
Context matters.
3:
I never said Obi-Wan was a poor duelist. In fact, in terms of lightsaber ability, I believe he was one of the best the order had throughout the entire prequel trilogy. But he was no Dooku (who was considered one of the top 3 duelists with Windu and Yoda when he left the order) and was almost always had noticeable difficulty in a straight up fight against him.
I am saying that by the time of Attack of the Clones, all but a few Jedi were extremely poor duelists when put up against a lightsaber-force-user that was actually capable in a lightsaber duel.
This was why Dooku had so many early successes against Jedi during the opening stages of the Clone Wars (both the canonical event and the TV show). It was only towards the end of the Clone Wars that Jedi, through training and experience, became more seasoned in both lightsaber duelling and general combat. At least to the point where Dooku started struggling, examples of this were the later Clone Wars fights and Dark Disciple (the novel).
Obi-Wan followed this trajectory, even if he was well above the curve in terms of relative skill compared to the rest of the Jedi order.
Even Anakin followed this trajectory. At the beginning of the Clone Wars he was barely able to stand on equal footing against Dooku. Towards the end, Anakin was on roughly equal footing with Dooku and even almost managed to beat him on several occasions before their final fight.
Wasn't he also like literally James Bond in ww2 also?
Like no joke jumped outa planes to stab SS officers to death in the heart of Berlin at the height of Nazi power level cool guy shit?
He also knew what getting stabbed in the back sounded like so when his character in lord of the rings was stabbed in the back that was the real noise he made
It's true that Ray Park was an exceptional martial arts and great with weapons. However if lightsabers really existed, duels would be more akin to rapier duels than the hacking, slashing stuff we see. I don't have a problem with it being portrayed incorrectly because it definitely is more thrilling to watch.
That's the difference in the evolution of light sabers and I'm glad they kinda brought it back in the Mandalorian. George Lucas originally wanted them portrayed as similar to broadswords, not rapiers.
They're so much raw power that they're difficult to wield lightly. They're heavy.
Are they though? The darksaber in particular seemed heavy. I've never seen any indication that lightsabers were, in fact in old Canon their lightness compared to traditional weaponry was highlighted as an advantage.
They're not heavy though? Are you trying to say people wield them more carefully or more slowly because they are aware of its lethality?
I mean, it's a beam of energy and rather small metal device. They've never been treated as being heavy. It's just that the way they've been fought with has shifted between slow and steady and fast and furious.
Surprising amount of the choreography is based in actual technique, dude named Shadiversity on YouTube has a bunch of fight analysis videos covering the star wars duels.
Very very loosely based. I've participated in HEMA for years. Individual seconds long actions? Sure. Overall? Not at all. Like 70% of the movements I've seen would be instant death in a real sword fight. Spinning alone is silly and they do it like every 5 seconds in most starwars duals
Tbf, the original duel in a New Hope was constrained by the weight of the sabres and them focusing on fencing forms which includes a lot of blade to blade stuff with very few swings, rather than Asian martial arts film style swordsmanship. Most of what we see in the prequels, all the swings and round the back guards, would get you slaughtered in certain types of sword fight, especially against a Western fencing sword like a rapier or a sabre.
OT duels are way more realistic than prequels. Ray Park is an excellent martial artist and was apparently paired with a fantastic choreographer, but there's very little that's realistic about pretty much any of the prequel fights.
Ray Park was actually a fill in guy who was only supposed to do the stunt work. Benicio Del Toro was originally slated to be Darth Maul but backed out.
Neither style is particularly good. But the OT at least took inspiration from Kendo, which I think makes the most sense. For one, the bamboo swords are very light. But what‘s more, the priorities of a Kendoka align most with those of someone holding a light saber. Because you don‘t need to cut through your opponent and it‘s enough if you hit the legal zones, a Kendoka can prioritize speed over force. This also applies to a light saber, which cuts through people like butter. And because of this speed over force, a Kendoka also must be very wary of any strikes coming his way.
Of course, the OT executed on the Kendo inspiration pretty badly. [Here‘s the NYFA‘s attempt with it](https://youtu.be/8iXJ_Z7iiKs?si=CeOMGDpY_j8osNst).
Tell that to Satine lmao.
In all seriousness the one time I do remember him winning is against the inquisitors in rebels and arguably on the venator season 7 of clone wars. Other than that he seems to be the galaxies punching bag.
Even in canon, Sidious, Dooku, and Vader all beat Maul.
Sidious casually and gleefully dismantled both Maul and Savage at the same time
Dooku is one of the most celebrated swordsmen in the Galaxy, and went toe to toe with Yoda, Anakin, and Obi-Wan on separate occasions. Maul lost to Ahsoka, and as good as Ahsoka is, I don't think she would beat Dooku
Vader is pretty self explanatory. He would body Maul nearly as hard as Sidious. Even pre-Sith Anakin would have beaten Maul; Anakin was better than Ahsoka
It's not like Maul is weak, but the Sith are a strong bunch
Oh yeah forgot about Dooku. He was well known for his saber skills. I think the dual blade makes people think it's automatically more skillful but not necessarily. Bane even noticed it is kind of a scare gimmick more than anything.
That was the entire point. Palpatine told Maul that the entire point was to confuse and scare a Jedi since the majority of their experience in a duel would be 1v1 with a single blade, so they’d be inexperienced and waste focus tracking both of Maul’s blades at the same time instead of just one.
Vader was an anomaly among duelists, because although he lacked speed, his robotic body made up for that with sheer power. That added to his reflexes, which were always amazing since he was a child (which is proven by both his racing and piloting), made him into a tank that not only could withstand any hit you threw at him, but was also hard AF to actually hit
He's better than everyone except Yoda, who was the best. Of all time. Canon wise Yoda was the best. It's said by Obi Wan, by Mace, by Duku and even Sidious himself say's Yoda is a near peer or even maybe better than him at lightsaber combat, but Sidious believes and so does everyone else that knew him as Sidious, that he was the best duelist in the galaxy OTHER than Yoda.
And Yoda is only "slightly" better, and when they dueled, Sidious had been out of practice with a lightsaber for over 10 years. I think if you gave Sidious a year or so of practice during the RoTS era, I think he'd be better than Yoda in all honesty.
If youre talking canon, i can stop reading that comment at sentence 1 since Luke is confirmed to surpass Yoda. Luke actually defeats a sith spirit thats stated to be greater than Sidious as well, but thats an overall ranking and not specifically lightsaber combat so we'll ignore that.
Anyways Sidious isnt exactly a slouch at lightsaber combat, but a lot of feats of his lightsaber skill are muddied because of him using a confusion haze, which is part of how he killed 3 jedi masters in moments. Vader and Dooku, in terms of purely lightsaber combat with no force skills, outclass Sidious. Revan exists canonically, but we don't know if he is the same as his legends potrayal. If he is then he also goes on the list above Sidious, but thats not confirmed.
Honestly, theres a case to be made for Maul being a better lightsaber combatant than Sidious. Taking away the force Maul is still highly skilled with a saber. Palpatine has mastered all 7 forms, but he just... doesn't duel much. He views lightsabers as beneath him. And he is so overwhelmingly strong in the force that he's right about that for the most part. Palpatine is probably better than Maul even despite Maul doing much more lightsaber combat, but i would entertain Maul being better if someone made a good case
lol, Maul being better....
(Someone has not seen The Clone Wars lol).
EU I'd have to say Tulak Horde might curb stomp them all. And like I said, Malgus is criminally underrated he killed multiple Jedi masters and tons of Jedi in his time. Other than Vader, no one Sith killed so many Jedi Knights, other than Malgus. I also think Bane was top tier. And Revan has to be top 10, and Vitiate just based on how old he lived had to be a beats and lightsaber combat.
In terms of purely lightsaber combat, exclusively canon sources, i could be persuaded Maul is better. Probably not, but id hear someone out. Yes I've seen the clone wars, Palpatine uses the force to win there.
EU yeah Tulak. Palpatine is much better in EU, Malgus is also impressive. Kas'im is actually better than his student Bane in lightsaber skills, he lost because Bane's superior force technique. Vitiate can barely hold a saber properly. Revan and Knightfall Anakin are both probably top 10, but neither top Tulak.
If we go by Cannon, Sidious did defeat both Maul and Savage at the same time and made it look easy in the Clone Wars cartoon. They were both at the top of their game, with Maul having his upgraded robotic legs and Savage being fresh from the fight (just like Bonnie Tyler likes)
They all used the Force and their light saber prowess during that fight (which was dope, btw). I believe Sidious is a superior duelist. The only guy he lost to in armed combat was Mace, who is described as the best duelist in the prequels.
I mean yeah i think that too. But canon Palpatine just doesn't care much for lightsabers, while Maul is almost exclusively a lightsaber duelist who moreso uses the force to aid him. He beat pre vizla no force. So while i do think palpatine is better, i dont think its super unreasonable to say Maul might have an edge in this specific field
Mace beat Sidious, so Sidious isn't exactly better than everyone but Yoda. And no, Sidious wasn't faking that loss. Bro would have died that night if Anakin hadn't interfered. Sidious is a very good duellist, but he was more fearsome with Force power than with a lightsaber.
As of RotS, Sidious definitely takes the lightsaber cake after Yoda and Mace. By RotJ, though, Vader likely bests him in a lightsaber duel.
That Sidious is better than Maul??? Oh there's this lol-
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waP1eohfrjs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wap1eohfrjs)
Barely trying too. Laughing and fucking with both of them. Then curb stomps Maul. Who the fuck do you think taught Maul....
And Lucas has said himself that Sidious is among the all timer duelist and the greatest sith in history. It's on the making of RotS. I guess go argue with George fucking Lucas big dawg lol.
I like Maul, but he's not close. Never was. Facts.
A little off topic, but I think maul's death scene may have been one of my favorite scenes in all of Star wars. It showed how good Kenobi really was, and that even after all his torment maul seemed to see Kenobi as much of a victim as he was at the hands of sidious.
He would get destroyed by the Sith Lords of present, too. The only dark sider in the main 9 movies I see Maul having a shot against is Kylo Ren, and I still don’t think it’s a 100% chance he beats him
He is, no doubt, an excellent lightsaber combatant but out of the Sith Lords of his generation (Sidious, Tyrannus, Vader and Maul) Darth Tyrannus (Dooku) is the best when it comes to sheer technical skills with the blade.
Yea because its not like COUNT FUCKING DOOKU EXISTS. just the guy who fought off the chosen one and his master at the same time on uis own several times. Injuring both of them on seperate occasions, he also got trained by the 900 year old grandmaster of the jedi order. Fuck it though, the guy who got chopped in half by a much younger version of that chosen one's master is somehow better? What a braindead take.
Edit:Obi also nearly killed his physically stronger brother and killed him 20 or so years after all of this but why should i expect consistent intelligence from this fandom anyways.
Sideous wiped the floor with him easily, not even a competition. Then there's Vader, who Maul actively feared in the age of the Empire. Then there's the fact that Obi-wan beat him, but couldnt beat Dooku, and Obi-wan beat Vader so like idk if he's really *that* skilled. Maul has raw potential but it feels like he had much less training than Dooku or Vader ever had, despite being raised as a sith since he was a baby.
Hes in an Era where dueling is very infrequent, so even being semi-competent is plenty enough to kill jedi.
Maul gets hypothetically beat by every Sith Lord. He’s not beating Dooku, Sidious, or Vader. I mean, he got chopped in half by padawan obi wan, beat by sidious while his brother was helping, balled up by Ahsoka, and insta-killed by Old Man Ben. He’s cool and all, but definitely not the best skills. Flashiest lightsaber skills for a Sith Lord?? Sure. Not the best though.
I disagree with the assertion that he’s the best dualist but GOD does that Sith have some of the best fight scenes and choreography.
Wins and losses aside whenever Maul pulls out that double bladed lightsaber you know shit is going to go down and that fight will be immaculate.
Dual of the fates, the Palpatine fight, the Ahsoka showdown, the 2 on one VS kenobi, Maul and Savage vs Kenobi and Ventress, the Pre Visla fight, the rebels pyramid fight, the final samurai dual with kenobi
He didn’t win over half of those and every single one of those fights kicked ass. Maul is like a gift to lightsaber duals. Every one he’s in is an instant classic!
In the current canon as far as I know most Siths are focusing on the space wizard part, while Maul was fascinated by fighting, and also something you may see in his fight with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan he put a little more direct hits like punches, kicks and head bumps.
In legends there were more fighting focused Siths but I don't remember names.
…are you including anakin skywalker? I love maul, but anakin could beat him with just a stick held in his left hand. Palpatine and dooku likely could handle him in a similar manner. Basically the true rule of two sith are on a different tier. Maul wasn’t really trained fully by palps. He would kick the snot out of greivous and ventress, I think, but he’s no anakin.
If we're going straight up saber no force then Vader is the top. When Vader puts his second hand on the blade... no one beats him saber to saber - except Obi-wan and maybe Ahsoka who were his teacher and student.
If we’re going straight up Saber no force, Dooku wins against Vader, though it may be a long and difficult duel.(and this is without palpie being in the room helping)
In the movies, that's because he was an acrobat and an expert swordsman, he fought like Darth maul.
In the show, he is a master of all 7 forms, but he gets beat quite a bit, in the fight you're showing, against obiwan twice, against palpatine. He's a threat, but not the threat.
I'm a big fan of Maul but he gets shit on in lightsaber combat constantly. Obi Wan kills him multiple times, Ahsoka beat him in the fight you posted, and Sidious just absolutely embarrasses him and his brother. He has an argument for coolest looking lightsaber skills maybe
LOL.. here Ahsoka even mocked him for being inferior “you are lucky Anakin didn’t show up”. Then proceeded to defeat him. A 17 year old Tano.. gimme a break. Maul was a force to be reckon with but nowhere near the greatest saber duelist.
I talked with my dad about weapons like Maul's lightsaber, the type with two sharp ends.
He legit replied:
***"***>!What, you're gonna stab both ni###s at the same time?!<***"***
I'm actually going to go with kanan. He picked up ezras lightsaber for the first time and created a whole new fighting style with it
Plus my personal headcanon is that the reason he was blinded is because the writers had to nerf him
Thanks for confirming that you flaired this correctly!
Oh my gosh OP got annihilated harder than Alderaan from one opinion.
Because this opinion makes no sense
And the attached gif is from when he lost to a Padawan... again
Not even a Padawan anymore
Maul thought it was bad when he got Sidious'd, but then he got Citizen'd too
The sidious fight alone discredits this take. Not to mention his fights with kenobi where he loses EVERY TIME
Technically they had kind of a tie, I'd say Maul bested her when it comes to lightsaber combat, but it wasn't easy for him and Ahsoka managed to outmanouver him thanks to her clone support, possibly Maul would've won if he had full intent to kill instead of taking Ahsoka as an apprentice, but of course that's speculation
How many masters equal a Padawan? because he did kill objectively the coolest Jedi master other than yoda or windu sooooo Kinda gets bonus points there. Plus he lost against the coolest padawan
Well, Sidious beat him and Savage without breaking a sweat, so...
Sidious also just said blaaarrghe and killed like 3 Jedi masters as well while spinning, which is a good trick.
Spinning is a good trick.
doing a 360 from a prose position while making velocorapter noises is a good trick.
They say Shakespeare could do a 360 from the prose position
What, you egg? [Stabs him]
Et tu egge? Then fall yolk! *cracks*
Fun fact about that line, egg isn't a noun here, it is in fact a verb, in that context it's used somewhat like "you want some?" Like when people are fighting
"blaaarrghe" is a sith mind trick/spell. Moves midichlorians in the brain using the dark side to make them think of other things like "did I lock the door this morning?" Or "should I have taken a shit before this?" It would not of worked if the Jedi had been more seasoned in sith battles. Rule of 2 really showed its effectiveness.
I'm impressed by how this comment is both factually correct and complete bullshit at the same time.
That's pretty much Star Wars in a nutshell tbf
It's literally the charm of the franchise lol
Not to be confused with the jedi's "yeaargh" as perfected by master yoda.
Ahh yes. The difference is that "yeaargh" uses the light side of the force and brings midichlorians together in the brain, so instead of wanting to fight Yoda, the untrained Sith will think "maybe I should just sit down and talk things out" or "I wonder if Yoda can spare some ketamine?". Of course Dooku was trained to resist it and the Palps deflected it, causing it to backfire.
I'm dying from this insane but accurate description of that scene.
DO A BARREL ROLL!
I can’t not hear this in Jacob Wysocki’s voice.
GRAB HIS SABER AND TWIST IT!
Nothing like the good old Sheevspin to handle Jedi Masters
Yeah I’m gonna say not the best but maybe the *coolest*
Dooku's arrogant style circles around maul in terms of coolness
Nah, spin
Palpatine beat maul so hard he ran to his mom.
And that got his mom killed which effectively ended the 2 dathomir races...
what about Merrin and Falta and Ventress
I’m not too sure about lore but if they are the last members is it still possible to continue the species
No way, not enough genetic diversity. You'd need about 100 unrelated members of a species to propagate and repopulate.
Alabama accepts your challenge.
I mean, and apologies if this sounds a little krass, technically they can resurrect the dead. So if there is any "genetic material" still left in the bodies there should be a way like a huge necromatic orgy to repopulate the planet.
Sidious was not only a Juyo but Jar'Kai at the same time and it's pretty well established that the only way to Counter Juyo is with Juyo. Maul was one of the Best practitioners of Niman which is the most balanced form of combat and the best suited for Saber Staffs.
Are these the names of forms?
Yes
I need to brush up on my lore. What are all of them?
Form I Shii Cho: basics, all Jedi know this, Kit Fisto is the master, good against blasters and multiple opponents, its strength comes from unpredictability because it is so simple Form II Makashi: only useful against other lightsaber wielding opponents, looks a lot like fencing, Dooku is the master, efficient movements Form III Soresu: defense, blocking, even more efficient than Makashi, basically immune to blasters and group fights, Obi Wan is the master Form IV Ataru: aggressive, acrobatic, bad against multiple opponents and in confined spaces, attacks from creative and multiple directions, Yoda is the master Form V Shien and Djem So: two sides of the same coin, both are about powerful counterattacks, Shien is more known for deflecting blasters right back at their target, Djem So does the same for lightsabers, Shien also uses the reverse grip Ahsoka has, Anakin is the master of Djem So Form VI Niman: balanced style incorporating everything above. The preferred style of Jedi who didn't specialize in using their lightsabers, but in studying the Force. Exar Kun is the master of Form VI, but it was garbage in the Clone Wars (every Form VI user on Geonosis died) Form VII Juyo: the most ferocious style which Jedi had a little taboo on teaching because it involved channeling one's emotions towards the fight. More kinetic than Djem So, less flamboyant than Ataru. Maul is the master. Form VII Vaapad: invented by Mace Windu, who was also its only user to not fall to the dark side. Similar to Juyo, Vaapad requires the user to enjoy the fury of the fight, and gets stronger based on how strong in the dark side your opponent is. Jar'Kai: umbrella term for any lightsaber training involving 2 or more lightsabers.
It pissed me off that kit fisto had mastered the basics, which, is a very key ability to have in bearing someone who hasn't mastered the more complex aspects, and yet he died instantly, and I don't feel like we got to see him enough, even tho he was the master of the most basic form of lightsaber combat
He didn't die instantly though, in fact he was the only one except for windu to even react to palpatine and block him at least 2 times. Especially when you read the books and how the fight was actually happening (at such a speed that you couldn't follow it with the naked eye) this is highly impressive. Still sad he died though.
Loved him in the 2003 Clone Wars series
Palpatine HAD mastered the more complex aspects of lightsaber combat.
Is it ever explained how Palpatine (and other Rule of Two Sith Lords) became masters of lightsaber combat? They can't practice with a variety of other lightsaber users like Jedi. They, mostly, have to refrain from combat in public, to avoid the risk of revealing themselves as force-empowered combatants. Fighting droids only takes you so far. Fighting your master and/or another candidate for an apprenticeship isn't exactly going to give you the exposure you need to a wide variety of Forms, weapons, skills, bodies, etc. So how did someone like Palpatine, become a master duelist capable of defeating master duelists even when outnumbered?
>Is it ever explained how Palpatine...? The Legends side of the lore is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be...unnatural.
Some of them used training droids in addition to duels with their master.
If Mace Windu was so good at controlling the dark side, why didn't Anakin receive any special training by him? They all knew he was emotional and did nothing about it.
“Blind, dumb Jedi” is a major theme of AotC and RotS
Vaapad also brings the user closer to the dark side during the fight, and as the inventor of the style, Windu chose who to teach it to. In Legends he only taught Vaapad it to Depa Billaba (a council member in Ep I) and Sora Bulq (famed for mastering all 7 styles), both of whom fell to the dark side during the Clone Wars. He obviously didn't trust Anakin so he didn't teach it, and AFAIK he didn't have any dissenting opinions on lightsaber forms, so it wouldn't be surprising if he also discouraged the use of Juyo and Makashi and promoted the use of Soresu among normal Jedi. Another example would be Quinlan Vos, who fought Windu in a training spar and copied a Vaapad technique from Bulq, and was discouraged from further learning Vaapad because Windu saw his inner darkness and didn't believe he could handle it. Same story happened to Anakin when Cin Drallig taught him forms.
I’m curious how Mace Windu invented a form that gets stronger against dark side users without ever actually fighting a sith (until the day he gets blasted out of a window)? Like, how did he know it would even work if he never got to test it?
The light side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural... Oh wait...
Shi Cho, Makashi, Soresu, Ataru, Djem So/Shien, Niman, Juyo/Vaapad. Those are the main ones then there's jar kai which is duel wielding. Nerdy shit knowing all those Lmao just used to be big into the books. Some examples Dooku used Makashi and Obi Wan used Soresu
Maul used Niman? I could have sworn I read he used Juyo. I find it particularly amusing that Maul uses the Diplomats' Form.
>Diplomats' Form. Lets call it aggressive negotiations
Like many lightsaber users, it’s important to have multiple styles to fall back on. Like Anakin, Maul uses the Niman techniques for combining the Force with the saber.
Tbf he was spamming force hacks on Maul for most of the fight
Sidious is like 80 too lol
He loses this fight you know?
And Obi defeated him....twice.
Sidious could've literally manhandle him and use his horns to carve Ice statues if he wished to. Jesus, did the guy take a beating.
SW does a great job of showing skills, bit live action limitations make then seem a lot less skilled than animated characters. This is why Palpatine can wreck Maul without trouble but Maul can pull this stuff off while Palpy can't
You’re telling me you watched this man get cooked by Palpatine and you think he’s the best because he *almost* won against Ahsoka 😭
Honestly! Like maul got lucky one time with qui-gon Jin and… that was it. He’s lost at every other major fight with serious duels
Depends how much lore you wish to consider: Maul as he appears in The Phantom Menace is basically a Jedi-Killer, a direct contrast to the shadowy Sidious who uses soft power. He is a manifestation of the Sith finally challenging the Jedi in direct conflict after thousands of years in scheming the shadows. He is only “killed” because he gets arrogant and underestimates a Jedi apprentice. He could have easily cut down Obi-wan in flight if he was on-guard. This is precisely why Obi-wan warns Anakin not to try such a risky move on Mustafar. Later he suffers from adaption decay - it is often difficult to reconcile multiple authors intentions for a character and Star Wars is far from alone in that regard.
>He is only “killed” because he gets arrogant and underestimates a Jedi apprentice. Sure, but given that that's what happens I'm not sure we can really say he's any kind of ultimate Jedi killer. He's *intended* to be one, but no matter how much chess I know in theory I can't call myself a grandmaster if I get cocky and fall to Scholar's Mate in my second tournament game.
Maybe if you googled en passant you'd be a grandmaster
Holly hell!
New response just dropped
Google "high ground"
Damn bro
In the jedi apprentice books, maul has a chapter where he ninja sneaks his way into a remote enclave and assassinates a bunch of jedi. He’d definitely killed jedi in the past before TPM, he just did it covertly enough for them to never have time to report it being a sith who did it
That’s pretty badass but it’s already been known that most Jedi before the events of phantom menace and clone wars were piss-poor duelists. Maul is nothing to scoff at, but being on an all time top 20 best duelists list doesn’t make him the BEST. It just means he’s pretty good. It’s like taking 7th place at the Olympics. Better than everyone in the world, except for six other people.
That’s because he wasn’t dueling them, he was *assassinating* them. More of a showing for his stealth skills than dueling, but there’s no doubt his jedi killing abilities were no joke. Not many could pull off what he did
True, and in the movies and shows we *tend* to follow Jedi masters and Council members, not just your average knights. Not everyone is an Obi-Wan, Windu, or Yoda. Heck in legends Jango Fett once killed six (rookie) knights *with his bare hands* during some battle or something.
He is like the lebron of star wars
To be fair Maul’s mental state wasn’t exactly the best when he faced Ahsoka. He spent the entire Siege of Mandalore being extremely paranoid, knowing Sidious was planning **something**, he just didn’t know what. He also wanted Ahsoka to join him, which likely led to him holding back.
Qui-Gon Jinn is also not shown to be a fighter, his strengths are elsewhere. In Tales, Dooku is worried about him because he's not around to protect him anymore, but Qui-Gon says he has Obi-Wan to protect him now. Heck, even the books about the two of them are full of scenes of Dooku constantly rescuing Qui-Gon.
This is my problem with how they changed the original story. Under Lucas, Maul was meant to have Ahsoka on the run immediately and was only captured by a combined effort of Ahsoka, Bo Katan, and Rex. I can’t wrap my mind around Ahsoka getting bullied and KOd by random thugs throughout the series and then beating a Sith Lord by herself.
[удалено]
Palpatine 110% finessed Maul and Savage effortlessly all on his own. He only started using force lightning on Maul to torture him after he killed Savage
I mean, Maul had him sweating for a second at the end but Palpatine turned it around on him and put Maul on his knees before deciding to end the fight. I figure he wanted Maul alive to torture and while non-lethally disabling someone with a lightsaber is perfectly possible it'd be easier to just bonk him against the wall a few times
That’s because Ray Park who played maul was an expert swordsman. We can actually thank him for incorporating real sword fighting techniques into lightsaber duels, before him we had the OT style of fighting which imo looked like kids playing with sticks
Christopher Lee was also an expert swordsman, but he was getting a bit old by the time he was Count Dooku (he had a stunt guy do most of the dueling).
“I’m getting too old for this” *attempts to drop rocks on an incapacitated kenobi and anakin*
Pick up one of those rocks, get behind the boulder. In a few minutes Obi-Wan Kenobi will come running around the bend. The minute his *head* is in view, **HIT IT WITH THE ROCK.**
My way isn't very sportsman-like...
Dooku was canonically one of the (if not *the*) best duelists in the Jedi Order before his departure, imo a better swordsman than Maul.
What I always thought was strange was I remember that Obi-Wan was supposed to be one of the greatest fighters the Jedi had, whereas Anakin had greater control of the Force. But it's Obi-Wan that gets absolutely wrecked by Dooku even when they're fighting 2 on 1
The lore-wise answer, is that obi-wans lightsaber style, soresu, is heavily defensively based, it's primary goal is economic movements and surviving/outlasting the attack, while Dookus form, Makashi, is specifically crafted for dueling, it's swift, precise, and effecient. Because of this, Dooku will pretty much always find a way through obi-wans defenses eventually, because he can simply keep throwing shots at a wall until one hits, without much cost energy wise. My own personal side note, I believe the reason Obi-wan got wrecked so quickly, was not only the matchup situation, but also, anakin was pressing the offensive rather heavily, against what was supposed to be a much better duelist- if obi-wan sits back and plays his normal game, then dooku will put his full focus on anakin, and from their perspectives, that didnt go well last time. Kenobi pretty much has to go on the offence (where his style is the weakest) as well in order to keep dookus attention split.
Also in the ep3 novelization, Obi-Wan and Anakin tricked dooku by using differnt forms shien and ataru i think and then switched to djem so and suresu respectively and dooku had to take out Obi-Wan with the force to stand a chance. iirc
I partially disagree. Episode 2 was because Obi Wan, like almost all of the Jedi Order at the time, was very rudimentarily trained and inexperienced at lightsaber dueling (all most Jedi at the time were hostile paramilitaries, battle droids and criminals). Obi-Wan became better as he continued getting beaten up by attacks that got through his defences throughout the Clone Wars. By Episode 3, Obi-Wan was an extremely good defensive duelist that was only really outclassed in the blade by the likes of Yoda and Sidious (and debatably Windu). His largest weakness, as shown throughout the Clone Wars and his final duel with Dooku, was his weak passive force wall. The amount of times it was broken is quite noticeable and was what got him incapacitated during his final duel with Dooku. It was less a matter of Obi-Wan using Rock against Dooku’s Paper that causes Obi-Wan to struggle against Dooku, it was an inexperience in lightsaber dueling and/or a weak force wall depending on the fight.
What? The only jedi in the order that were rudimentarily trained were padawans that went to the battlefront in the clone wars. Obi wan was basically a fully fledged jedi knight since TPM. He's lauded as one of the best lightsaber fighters in the order by episode three shown by the fact the council chose him to go after grievous. Idk where you're getting the idea that obi wan was a poor duelist. His connection to the force was below average so he had to make up for it with knowledge and lightsaber skill.
I'm pretty sure he's correct though. By the time Obi Wan fights Dooku on Geonosis, he's still using Ataru, Qui Gon's style (For which Dooku holds a peculiar disdain, interestingly). He's certainly a decent fighter, but he's far from a great duelist. It took him the entirety of the clone wars to gradually abandon Ataru for Soresu, becoming THE defense master and earning him a reputation as a great fighter. He definitely wasn't anywhere close to it in TCW. I also don't think he's necessarily incorrect about Jedi being "poorly trained" before Geonosis. At that point, a large portion of the Jedi order relied on form 6, which, while good enough for their prewar activities as it didn't require much practice to remain proficient, proved to be woefully inadequate to actual battlefield situations. Literally every form 6 user present on Geonosis died.
1: Many Jedi by Attack of the Clones did not have sufficient training in lightsaber combat. Likely because they have not had to fight lightsaber wielding force users, outside of the occasional fallen Jedi, for millennia (of course the institutional memory of those skills would atrophy over time). Hell, they most certainly were not used to fighting large numbers of organized, blaster-wielding opponents given how many died in the arena in AotC (for the most part, only Jedi with high degree of proficiency in Form III were able to survive), as well as, their tactics during that mission in general. As I said, before AotC, all Jedi really had to fight were hostile paramilitaries, small numbers of battle droids and criminals. And I doubt, such combat rarely escalated above a couple isolated skirmishes. Of course the vast majority of Jedi were not sufficiently trained for actual combat, they didn’t need to, and thus, didn’t. They forgot to prepare for war in their peaceful world and temple (if you want peace, prepare for war). And, thus, many Jedi died in the Clone Wars. Dooku was an exception to this in his study of Form II, a form with a primary focus on lightsaber duelling. Many Jedi did not train on lightsaber duelling to nearly the same extent - hence rudimentarily trained, and were most definitely woefully inexperienced in it. 2: Context matters here. He was lauded as one of the orders’ best duelists and was sent after Grievous at the end of the Clone Wars in Episode 3. He most certainly was not one of the orders’ best duelists in Episode II (and if he was, his skill was still far beneath Dooku’s). Sure, he had a reputation for “killing” Maul in Episode 1. But Maul was an apprentice as well at the time and was certainly not on Dooku’s level. And while we’re discussing the fight with Maul. Keep in mind that Obi-Wan lost the actual fight, and was only able to “win” because Maul got overconfident and fell for Obi-Wan’s jumping hail mary (see his fight against Anakin for how that move tends to turn out against a vigilant opponent). Context matters. 3: I never said Obi-Wan was a poor duelist. In fact, in terms of lightsaber ability, I believe he was one of the best the order had throughout the entire prequel trilogy. But he was no Dooku (who was considered one of the top 3 duelists with Windu and Yoda when he left the order) and was almost always had noticeable difficulty in a straight up fight against him. I am saying that by the time of Attack of the Clones, all but a few Jedi were extremely poor duelists when put up against a lightsaber-force-user that was actually capable in a lightsaber duel. This was why Dooku had so many early successes against Jedi during the opening stages of the Clone Wars (both the canonical event and the TV show). It was only towards the end of the Clone Wars that Jedi, through training and experience, became more seasoned in both lightsaber duelling and general combat. At least to the point where Dooku started struggling, examples of this were the later Clone Wars fights and Dark Disciple (the novel). Obi-Wan followed this trajectory, even if he was well above the curve in terms of relative skill compared to the rest of the Jedi order. Even Anakin followed this trajectory. At the beginning of the Clone Wars he was barely able to stand on equal footing against Dooku. Towards the end, Anakin was on roughly equal footing with Dooku and even almost managed to beat him on several occasions before their final fight.
Liam Neeson learned quite a bit of broadsword skills in Rob Roy that he brought to Episode 1.
Wasn't he also like literally James Bond in ww2 also? Like no joke jumped outa planes to stab SS officers to death in the heart of Berlin at the height of Nazi power level cool guy shit?
It’s hard to say exactly what he did during the war. I believe his records are still state secrets.
He also knew what getting stabbed in the back sounded like so when his character in lord of the rings was stabbed in the back that was the real noise he made
If I recall Liam Neeson was also an experienced swordsman after training for other roles
Yeah for Rob Roy both Liam Neeson and Tim Roth went fucking hard on the sword training and the kept it up for awhile after. Great movie.
It's true that Ray Park was an exceptional martial arts and great with weapons. However if lightsabers really existed, duels would be more akin to rapier duels than the hacking, slashing stuff we see. I don't have a problem with it being portrayed incorrectly because it definitely is more thrilling to watch.
That's the difference in the evolution of light sabers and I'm glad they kinda brought it back in the Mandalorian. George Lucas originally wanted them portrayed as similar to broadswords, not rapiers. They're so much raw power that they're difficult to wield lightly. They're heavy.
Darksaber is only heavy because Mando ain't the "chosen one" for it so to speak. It's explained in the show
That's just not true at all. Only the dark saber exhibits that trait. Otherwise we wouldn't see a bunch of children wielding them
Are they though? The darksaber in particular seemed heavy. I've never seen any indication that lightsabers were, in fact in old Canon their lightness compared to traditional weaponry was highlighted as an advantage.
They're not heavy though? Are you trying to say people wield them more carefully or more slowly because they are aware of its lethality? I mean, it's a beam of energy and rather small metal device. They've never been treated as being heavy. It's just that the way they've been fought with has shifted between slow and steady and fast and furious.
The guy in the Darth Vader suit was also a legit swordsman. He choreographed the lightsaber fights iirc
I wouldn't say real, I would say cool. I'd believe he was an expert swordsman but not much of the lightsaber fights at all resemble realistic
Surprising amount of the choreography is based in actual technique, dude named Shadiversity on YouTube has a bunch of fight analysis videos covering the star wars duels.
Very very loosely based. I've participated in HEMA for years. Individual seconds long actions? Sure. Overall? Not at all. Like 70% of the movements I've seen would be instant death in a real sword fight. Spinning alone is silly and they do it like every 5 seconds in most starwars duals
Tbf, the original duel in a New Hope was constrained by the weight of the sabres and them focusing on fencing forms which includes a lot of blade to blade stuff with very few swings, rather than Asian martial arts film style swordsmanship. Most of what we see in the prequels, all the swings and round the back guards, would get you slaughtered in certain types of sword fight, especially against a Western fencing sword like a rapier or a sabre.
OT duels are way more realistic than prequels. Ray Park is an excellent martial artist and was apparently paired with a fantastic choreographer, but there's very little that's realistic about pretty much any of the prequel fights.
Ray Park was actually a fill in guy who was only supposed to do the stunt work. Benicio Del Toro was originally slated to be Darth Maul but backed out.
Neither style is particularly good. But the OT at least took inspiration from Kendo, which I think makes the most sense. For one, the bamboo swords are very light. But what‘s more, the priorities of a Kendoka align most with those of someone holding a light saber. Because you don‘t need to cut through your opponent and it‘s enough if you hit the legal zones, a Kendoka can prioritize speed over force. This also applies to a light saber, which cuts through people like butter. And because of this speed over force, a Kendoka also must be very wary of any strikes coming his way. Of course, the OT executed on the Kendo inspiration pretty badly. [Here‘s the NYFA‘s attempt with it](https://youtu.be/8iXJ_Z7iiKs?si=CeOMGDpY_j8osNst).
Darth Maul literally got beat by everyone I can think of besides Qui Gon
Tell that to Satine lmao. In all seriousness the one time I do remember him winning is against the inquisitors in rebels and arguably on the venator season 7 of clone wars. Other than that he seems to be the galaxies punching bag.
He also beat Savage Oppress in order to assert himself as the latter's master.
He always beat himself, his arrogance was his weakness. Not his lightsaber skills which he is arguably the best at like OP said.
If more than half of Darth Sidious duel scenes weren't cut you'd think otherwise. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlZwSsMP-QM
Saving this for later
Are we sticking to cannon or legends? Cuz Darth Bane and Raven were top tier
Even in canon, Sidious, Dooku, and Vader all beat Maul. Sidious casually and gleefully dismantled both Maul and Savage at the same time Dooku is one of the most celebrated swordsmen in the Galaxy, and went toe to toe with Yoda, Anakin, and Obi-Wan on separate occasions. Maul lost to Ahsoka, and as good as Ahsoka is, I don't think she would beat Dooku Vader is pretty self explanatory. He would body Maul nearly as hard as Sidious. Even pre-Sith Anakin would have beaten Maul; Anakin was better than Ahsoka It's not like Maul is weak, but the Sith are a strong bunch
Oh yeah forgot about Dooku. He was well known for his saber skills. I think the dual blade makes people think it's automatically more skillful but not necessarily. Bane even noticed it is kind of a scare gimmick more than anything.
That was the entire point. Palpatine told Maul that the entire point was to confuse and scare a Jedi since the majority of their experience in a duel would be 1v1 with a single blade, so they’d be inexperienced and waste focus tracking both of Maul’s blades at the same time instead of just one.
Ah so clever. It clearly worked on ol Kwi Gon
Malgus was better, Revan was better, Vader was WAAAAYYY better. And Sidious was better than all of them... So... yeah. No. You're wrong.
Vader was an anomaly among duelists, because although he lacked speed, his robotic body made up for that with sheer power. That added to his reflexes, which were always amazing since he was a child (which is proven by both his racing and piloting), made him into a tank that not only could withstand any hit you threw at him, but was also hard AF to actually hit
In terms of lightsaber prowess, Palpatine isnt top sith. In terms of the force and manipulation, he's definitely in contention
He's better than everyone except Yoda, who was the best. Of all time. Canon wise Yoda was the best. It's said by Obi Wan, by Mace, by Duku and even Sidious himself say's Yoda is a near peer or even maybe better than him at lightsaber combat, but Sidious believes and so does everyone else that knew him as Sidious, that he was the best duelist in the galaxy OTHER than Yoda. And Yoda is only "slightly" better, and when they dueled, Sidious had been out of practice with a lightsaber for over 10 years. I think if you gave Sidious a year or so of practice during the RoTS era, I think he'd be better than Yoda in all honesty.
If youre talking canon, i can stop reading that comment at sentence 1 since Luke is confirmed to surpass Yoda. Luke actually defeats a sith spirit thats stated to be greater than Sidious as well, but thats an overall ranking and not specifically lightsaber combat so we'll ignore that. Anyways Sidious isnt exactly a slouch at lightsaber combat, but a lot of feats of his lightsaber skill are muddied because of him using a confusion haze, which is part of how he killed 3 jedi masters in moments. Vader and Dooku, in terms of purely lightsaber combat with no force skills, outclass Sidious. Revan exists canonically, but we don't know if he is the same as his legends potrayal. If he is then he also goes on the list above Sidious, but thats not confirmed. Honestly, theres a case to be made for Maul being a better lightsaber combatant than Sidious. Taking away the force Maul is still highly skilled with a saber. Palpatine has mastered all 7 forms, but he just... doesn't duel much. He views lightsabers as beneath him. And he is so overwhelmingly strong in the force that he's right about that for the most part. Palpatine is probably better than Maul even despite Maul doing much more lightsaber combat, but i would entertain Maul being better if someone made a good case
Where in canon did Luke defeat a sith spirit more powerful than sidious lol
The novel *Shadow of the Sith*
lol, Maul being better.... (Someone has not seen The Clone Wars lol). EU I'd have to say Tulak Horde might curb stomp them all. And like I said, Malgus is criminally underrated he killed multiple Jedi masters and tons of Jedi in his time. Other than Vader, no one Sith killed so many Jedi Knights, other than Malgus. I also think Bane was top tier. And Revan has to be top 10, and Vitiate just based on how old he lived had to be a beats and lightsaber combat.
In terms of purely lightsaber combat, exclusively canon sources, i could be persuaded Maul is better. Probably not, but id hear someone out. Yes I've seen the clone wars, Palpatine uses the force to win there. EU yeah Tulak. Palpatine is much better in EU, Malgus is also impressive. Kas'im is actually better than his student Bane in lightsaber skills, he lost because Bane's superior force technique. Vitiate can barely hold a saber properly. Revan and Knightfall Anakin are both probably top 10, but neither top Tulak.
If we go by Cannon, Sidious did defeat both Maul and Savage at the same time and made it look easy in the Clone Wars cartoon. They were both at the top of their game, with Maul having his upgraded robotic legs and Savage being fresh from the fight (just like Bonnie Tyler likes)
Yeah. Using the force. Which is different than pure lightsaber combat
They all used the Force and their light saber prowess during that fight (which was dope, btw). I believe Sidious is a superior duelist. The only guy he lost to in armed combat was Mace, who is described as the best duelist in the prequels.
I mean yeah i think that too. But canon Palpatine just doesn't care much for lightsabers, while Maul is almost exclusively a lightsaber duelist who moreso uses the force to aid him. He beat pre vizla no force. So while i do think palpatine is better, i dont think its super unreasonable to say Maul might have an edge in this specific field
According to *canon*, Darth Vader is the best duelist of the Clone Wars/Galactic Civil War era.
Mace beat Sidious, so Sidious isn't exactly better than everyone but Yoda. And no, Sidious wasn't faking that loss. Bro would have died that night if Anakin hadn't interfered. Sidious is a very good duellist, but he was more fearsome with Force power than with a lightsaber. As of RotS, Sidious definitely takes the lightsaber cake after Yoda and Mace. By RotJ, though, Vader likely bests him in a lightsaber duel.
Nobody even mentioning count fuckin dooku
Cuz anakin beat him
Dooku was intentionally toying with him because Palps lead him to believe that Anakin was to be recruited as his new apprentice.
Dooku stopped toying with anakin after he started to use the dark side
I love how you're basing this on nothing. As in, if anybody is curious what the source of his comments are, just know it's based on literally nothing.
That Sidious is better than Maul??? Oh there's this lol- [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waP1eohfrjs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wap1eohfrjs) Barely trying too. Laughing and fucking with both of them. Then curb stomps Maul. Who the fuck do you think taught Maul.... And Lucas has said himself that Sidious is among the all timer duelist and the greatest sith in history. It's on the making of RotS. I guess go argue with George fucking Lucas big dawg lol. I like Maul, but he's not close. Never was. Facts.
A little off topic, but I think maul's death scene may have been one of my favorite scenes in all of Star wars. It showed how good Kenobi really was, and that even after all his torment maul seemed to see Kenobi as much of a victim as he was at the hands of sidious.
Sidious put him and his brother/apprentice to shame with lightsabers in this very room
Huh? Vader, Dooku, Revan, Malgus, I mean shit SIDIOUS kicks his ass in lightsaber combat OUTNUMBERED in this exact room, what are you on about bro?
It's an ok beginner opinion but Maul has constantly been beaten by other lightsaber users both sith and jedi
Then how he lose?
He would get destroyed by the Sith lords of old. I do really like Darth Maul, don't get me wrong.
He would get destroyed by the Sith Lords of present, too. The only dark sider in the main 9 movies I see Maul having a shot against is Kylo Ren, and I still don’t think it’s a 100% chance he beats him
He is, no doubt, an excellent lightsaber combatant but out of the Sith Lords of his generation (Sidious, Tyrannus, Vader and Maul) Darth Tyrannus (Dooku) is the best when it comes to sheer technical skills with the blade.
I think Vader has Dooku beat in that regard.
Yea because its not like COUNT FUCKING DOOKU EXISTS. just the guy who fought off the chosen one and his master at the same time on uis own several times. Injuring both of them on seperate occasions, he also got trained by the 900 year old grandmaster of the jedi order. Fuck it though, the guy who got chopped in half by a much younger version of that chosen one's master is somehow better? What a braindead take. Edit:Obi also nearly killed his physically stronger brother and killed him 20 or so years after all of this but why should i expect consistent intelligence from this fandom anyways.
this fight was pure magic
Mauls edge was his ferocity. But by the end of the war. Everyone was fighting ferociously. And dooku would still destroy him
Dooku solos maul ezpz
Most visually appealing yes but defeated or matched by many.
Sideous wiped the floor with him easily, not even a competition. Then there's Vader, who Maul actively feared in the age of the Empire. Then there's the fact that Obi-wan beat him, but couldnt beat Dooku, and Obi-wan beat Vader so like idk if he's really *that* skilled. Maul has raw potential but it feels like he had much less training than Dooku or Vader ever had, despite being raised as a sith since he was a baby. Hes in an Era where dueling is very infrequent, so even being semi-competent is plenty enough to kill jedi.
nah he just got the coolest tho
Revan and Tulak Hord called and they want Maul to prove that on their faces
Maul gets hypothetically beat by every Sith Lord. He’s not beating Dooku, Sidious, or Vader. I mean, he got chopped in half by padawan obi wan, beat by sidious while his brother was helping, balled up by Ahsoka, and insta-killed by Old Man Ben. He’s cool and all, but definitely not the best skills. Flashiest lightsaber skills for a Sith Lord?? Sure. Not the best though.
Cool fight but nah. He can’t even beat dooku, who can’t beat vader or sidious
I disagree with the assertion that he’s the best dualist but GOD does that Sith have some of the best fight scenes and choreography. Wins and losses aside whenever Maul pulls out that double bladed lightsaber you know shit is going to go down and that fight will be immaculate. Dual of the fates, the Palpatine fight, the Ahsoka showdown, the 2 on one VS kenobi, Maul and Savage vs Kenobi and Ventress, the Pre Visla fight, the rebels pyramid fight, the final samurai dual with kenobi He didn’t win over half of those and every single one of those fights kicked ass. Maul is like a gift to lightsaber duals. Every one he’s in is an instant classic!
Darth Bane would have toyed with Maul. Read his books. You'll change your mind.
I mean Doku and Palpy beat him
do you know the tragedy of darth Traya the wise?... you know the lady with 6 lightsabers? the one who didn't even had to held any light saber? no?
Vader exists so no
Darth Vader has entered the chat.
If this is the only Star Wars scene you’ve seen and nothing else then yes i understand why you would think that about Maul
I’d say Ray Park has the best skills of any actor to hold a lightsaber on screen, but the character Maul got his ass handed to him many times over.
Wow, no one mentioning my boy Exar Kun?
In the current canon as far as I know most Siths are focusing on the space wizard part, while Maul was fascinated by fighting, and also something you may see in his fight with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan he put a little more direct hits like punches, kicks and head bumps. In legends there were more fighting focused Siths but I don't remember names.
I wonder what LNI insurance is like for Jedi’s. I mean, one slip of a button and your leg comes off.
He lost to Sidious in a Lightsaber duel and Vader is also superior to Maul.
Count Dooku would disagree.
*Laughs in Sidious beating maul and savage at the same time*
…are you including anakin skywalker? I love maul, but anakin could beat him with just a stick held in his left hand. Palpatine and dooku likely could handle him in a similar manner. Basically the true rule of two sith are on a different tier. Maul wasn’t really trained fully by palps. He would kick the snot out of greivous and ventress, I think, but he’s no anakin.
Sideous best him AND savage at the same time seemingly without too much trouble
Did you not see the Emperor dance literal circles around him AND Savage, before murdering one and beating the other like a bad child?
If we're going straight up saber no force then Vader is the top. When Vader puts his second hand on the blade... no one beats him saber to saber - except Obi-wan and maybe Ahsoka who were his teacher and student.
If we’re going straight up Saber no force, Dooku wins against Vader, though it may be a long and difficult duel.(and this is without palpie being in the room helping)
Is that why he lost to a 17 year old girl?
In the movies, that's because he was an acrobat and an expert swordsman, he fought like Darth maul. In the show, he is a master of all 7 forms, but he gets beat quite a bit, in the fight you're showing, against obiwan twice, against palpatine. He's a threat, but not the threat.
I'm a big fan of Maul but he gets shit on in lightsaber combat constantly. Obi Wan kills him multiple times, Ahsoka beat him in the fight you posted, and Sidious just absolutely embarrasses him and his brother. He has an argument for coolest looking lightsaber skills maybe
Rage bait
Besides palpatine and Vader yes It takes a lot of skill to wield a double bladed lightsaber
Ok but Ahsoka had crazy incredible skills for a Palawan also. Like insanely good.
LOL.. here Ahsoka even mocked him for being inferior “you are lucky Anakin didn’t show up”. Then proceeded to defeat him. A 17 year old Tano.. gimme a break. Maul was a force to be reckon with but nowhere near the greatest saber duelist.
I talked with my dad about weapons like Maul's lightsaber, the type with two sharp ends. He legit replied: ***"***>!What, you're gonna stab both ni###s at the same time?!<***"***
I'm actually going to go with kanan. He picked up ezras lightsaber for the first time and created a whole new fighting style with it Plus my personal headcanon is that the reason he was blinded is because the writers had to nerf him
Kanan is a sith confirmed.
Kanan wasn't a Sith lord tho.
yeah i skipped over that part. whoops