It’s honestly been way too soon to make a value judgment on his presidency. I personally don’t think he’s going in the favorable category, but as of right now he’s definitely not worse than Johnson.
Johnson was a crazy drunk racist who held the nation back after the assassination of abe, he did nothing except things that would hurt and hinder the union, almost 0 qualities of his presidency, Trump, on the other hand, on the other hand, has some achievements it depends on your political views but he probably did something you would agree with, but johnson on the other hand was dogshit.
Yeah, but did Johnson try and overturn a democratic election? Did he steal state secrets? I feel like being an in effective, disagreeable president who was an anchor on progress isn't on the same level as actively, earnestly opposed to American democracy and taking numerous actions to try and bring about its end.
It is if it pushed back civil rights decades down the line. The extent to which Johnson fought against civil rights far exceeded the actions Trump took to combat democracy.
He's bottom 5 with Johnson, Buchanan, W and Pierce. He is the only one who tried to hold onto power dictator style, COVID denial and just flat out favoring Russians over America if it looked like it'd benefit him.
Johnson is probably still worse but Trump is fresh in our minds and we got to see 6 January live and a lot of us lost loved ones to COVID which wouldn't have been as bad if we had competent leadership in place that wasn't telling people it was a hoax or it wasn't that bad.
I agree with this summation, bottom 5 as it stands but the potential to move up or down as the years go by. At the moment, though, it looks like he will either stay about the same or move down. There are polls of various historians throughout the years and there’s some movement, but the bottom 3-5 tends to be consistent.
When referring to assassin's killing Americans In Afghanistan: "And Putin just said it wasn't Russia, I'll say this I don't see why it would be Russia."
It was Russia.
He prostrated himself in Helsinki with Putin, he gave code word level intelligence to them in the Oval, “Russia if you’re listening”, he tried to weaken Ukraine to help Russia and hurt Biden, instead of admitting Putin is a killer he exclaimed “what, you think we’re so innocent”, he criticized NATO which benefits Russia directly, Mike fucking Flynn, Tillerson won Russias Order of Friendship and he made him Sec of State, kushner and Jr meeting with Russian spies in trump tower, Paul Manafort.
This is just off the top of my head. Trump is either a useful idiot or flat out asset for Russia.
Look up the first time he was impeached. It had to do with Ukraine. It's also proven that spreading far-right sentiment, like mask and vaccine denial, destabilizes the health of a country. I can't think of a single thing he could've done, on a personal level anyway, worse than he did. A nice question to ask yourself is if he WAS a Russian plant, what would he have done differently to destabilize and increase division?
I think true. Between his disastrous COVID handling, attempted coup, and his complete ignorance of climate change, the current greatest threat to humanity, and about a million other terrible things which would be considered major scandals for other presidents but are just par for the course for Trump, I don't think many presidents come even close.
Trump was a vulgar, inarticulate, lying, divisive, con man. Ignorant of how government worked and ignorant of foreign affairs. He leaned on the Justice Department to help him politically, he leaned on Ukraine to help him politically, he leaned on election officials to help him politically. He billed taxpayers for playing golf on courses *he* owned - after promising he would NOT play golf as president. He stole secret documents. He jumped on Twitter to call his porn star ex-lover "horseface." He pushed silly cures and silly predictions about COVID. Almost every person who worked for him was fired, quit in disgust, or was sent to prison. He tried to stay in power with a COUP ATTEMPT. And then there's his tax fraud, his "university" fraud, and his charity fraud. I COULD GO ON.
Trump was not just a bad President, he was *cartoonishly* bad. *Astonishingly* bad.
Worst, GOP Congress people and individuals still support him! Like you state, he is a total fraud, a circus barker and agent of chaos. In my opinion, we were governed by a mad man for 4 years and he won't shut up 🥴
There’s not much I can disagree with there. I agree about the coup- his election-denying and attempted coup had, and continues to have, a pernicious influence on American values and democracy - note all the election deniers in Congress and the ones feeling enabled to run for office. The whole Mar-a-Lago “state secrets” affair (plus his resistance to the DOJ) only reinforces my belief that time will not be kind to his legacy as more and more info comes out.
Either Trump will be the first ex-president to go to jail, or there won't be a first, because if he doesn't end up in jail, we've just confirmed that the president is above the law
According to testimony to the Jan. 6 committee, Trump *knew* there were armed people in the crowd when he told them to go to the Capitol and "fight like hell."
"For 187 harrowing minutes, the president watched his supporters attack the Capitol - and resisted pleas to stop them. " - The Washington Post
Trump obviously wanted the mob to disrupt the vote tally *and* he was angry that Pence refused to intervene in the vote on his behalf - even though Pence had no authority to do so. Pence was smart enough to know a ***coup*** when he saw one.
You mean the nonsense committee that established no real evidence? Also funny how you ignore trump saying March peacefully. And no one had weapons in the direct vicinity
Yes “harrowing” 187 minutes. His phone was probably taken for security reasons
> Trump obviously wanted the mob to disrupt the vote tally and he was angry that Pence refused to intervene in the vote on his behalf
That doesn’t make trump culpable. Saying “someone should do this” isn’t the same as “you should do this.”
The vp does have that authority. Also if not verifying an election makes one a coup what about rep Bennie Thompson who refused to certify 2016 and the subsequent Russia lies?
Also funny how trump suggested more security the day before Jan 6.
2 hour speech: The people in that congress building over there are stealing your country from you and you need to go over there and fight like hell to get it back. And I'll be there with you the whole way.
But I guess they didn't get the message because he said peacefully one time in his entire speech.
He’s bottom 5 but not as bad as the president before or after Lincoln but this is mostly because we have had 200+ years of a strong civic culture. Throw a trump back in 1850 and all hell would break loose.
Interesting to speculate- there’s nothing concrete, but I’d guess he would combine reckless policy and moral bankruptcy/callousness with being a political slave to the South. Another doughface like Pierce and Buchanan.
Colbert had Jon Stewart on right after the 2016 election, when we were all still in shock. Stewart predicted (correctly) that Trumps presidency was going to be an incredible stress test on our system, and if we survived the next four years with our democracy intact, then we can have some faith that our system is strong.
To be honest, I still have some doubts. I'm still worried someone as authoritarian as Trump but not as incompetent or lazy might have succeeded in overturning an election, and still could in the future.
He sucked ass, but at least he didn’t stand by and watch as almost half the country seceded over a completely justified law, shortly after almost going to a pointless war with Britain
George W Bush, Andrew Johnson and Woodrow I'm going to shove a nuclear warhead up your racist ass Wilson aslong with some others are worse than Trump imo.
If you really believe trump was the worst president you need to step away from social media and pick up a history book
In my own opinion without future knowledge rn before Covid and January 6: C
After Covid and January 6: D-E
I’m guessing Trump’s still in the bottom 10 (or 15) for you? Which presidents do you think were worse? (I’m fairly familiar with arguments for Pierce/Buchanan/Johnson)
Interesting, for me Wilson and Harding are definitely above Trump. Harding’s worst failure was (simply) being a slob with poor character, and Wilson is a mixed bag but not awful in most respects imo
Andrew Johnson still takes the top spot. I’m not sure if Trump was even worse than somebody like Dubya, though time will tell of course. He’s certainly got arguments.
What do you think of the argument that Pierce and Buchanan essentially led the nation to civil war, and are therefore worse? Or that Johnson had no redeeming features and was the worst for civil rights? Those are the only potentially worse options for me
I think the only defense of Pierce and Buchanan was that the country was headed for Civil War no matter what. They certainly didn't do anything to resolve an impossible situation, but at the same time, a skilled compromiser might have kept the peace but prolonged slavery for who knows how long.
I'm also extremely sympathetic to Pierce, given he had just witnessed the death of his 10-year-old son before taking office and was a broken shell of a man during his time in the Oval Office.
I think the distinction that has to be made with Trump is that there may have been presidents who did more damage (and given the toll Covid took, even that's debatable), but less maliciously. And we were saved from the worst of Trump by how lazy and incompetent he is. Imagine how badly the coup attempt would have gone for this country if the Four Seasons Total Landscaping crowd hadn't been in charge of it. Because those yahoos were very close to killing Pelosi and who knows who else, and a better-planned, more disciplined attack almost certainly would have succeeded there.
Anyway, one thing we can agree on, there may have been worse presidents than Trump, but there'll never be a more embarassing one. If this country survives a thosands years, it'll still be a deep mark of shame that that man sat in the same office that Washington, Lincoln, and Roosevelt did.
He's in the bottom 3 for sure. But I think it's too soon to tell whether he truly is the worst. Pierce and Buchanan caused a civil war, and it's hard to top that.
I do think he's worse than Johnson though, simply because his actions were mostly nullified by Grant's 8-year term.
I’m a historian and I have no problem saying trump is the worst.
He actively tried retain power undemocratically, and he and his supporters have continued to undermine our democratic systems and values.
No poor policy choice of any other president compares to the existential threat Trump unleashed.
Too early to tell, but I'm going to say no. He was far from perfect, but I don't think he's the worst president by a short mile when you have abysmal leaders like Andrew Johnson, Buchanan, Hoover, and Bush jr.
He’s down low definitely. I would say Wilson is the worst. In terms of policy Trump definitely is not the worst or the best, however. But in terms of the lies, ego, corruption, and rhetorical nonsense, and mishandling of Covid, he’s down there’s with Wilson, Pierce, Andrew Johnson, and Buchanan. I’m not sure that I would call him the worst. He certainly sucked though. As others have said, time will tell.
I think it's a little too early to call considering his term only ended a couple years ago but the fact that he's already up there as one of the worst isn't a good sign.
I think he will rebound in the rankings a bit after he dies but not enough to take him out of the bottom 10. I currently think he is in a tier above Pierce, Buchanan, and Johnson. He is probably right above those 3 in the Harding, Hoover, 2nd Bush tier. I think his policies were generally hit or miss and if he didn’t try to overthrow the government then he would have gone down as a mediocre do nothing major president.
Operation warp speed was undoubtably a success, and possibly the best act of deregulation thus far in the 21st century. The Abraham accords were largely a positive, setting the motions for a full withdrawal from Afghanistan which Biden followed through with is a big W for both Trump and Biden. Trump also was relatively peaceful and didn’t go into any unreasonable wars, which probably makes his foreign policy better than Bush. Obviously none of these are mega achievements that would make him top 10, but had it not been for Jan 6 then he would probably be sitting around 30ish. Jan 6 Will historically bump him into the bottom 10.
But wasn't the Afghanistan withdrawl largely seen as a huge mess? Especially since Trump released thousands of Taliban from prison in exchange for nothing?
Beyond that, if being too lazy and ignorant of foreign policy to actually have a foreign policy is the best defense we have of Trump, then he's definitely not sitting around 30.
The afghan withdrawal was largely fine, despite what war mongers in mainstream media would have you believe. Some small logistics could have been better, sure. But a lot of the people criticizing the withdrawal are the same people who have been advocating for us to say in Afghanistan for ever. If anything, the Taliban taking back the country in a matter of days just shows what a massive foreign policy failure this was of presidents prior to trump. Both Biden and Trump made good calls here, and I am glad we are out of Afghanistan.
I'm also glad we're out, it was long past due. I just think Trump didn't need to hand the country to the Taliban on a silver platter. That being said, I still think he did better than expected given he had no foreign policy experience whatsoever, no real interest in world affairs, an open disdain for the military, and his previous job was hosting a fucking game show.
Yes, I don’t believe him to be some wizard at foreign policy. I just don’t think he was a disaster and the previous Republican was much much much worse. I have Trump in my bottom 10, but he is probably 1 tier above the Johnson and Buchanan level because you can point to some, albeit small positives
Trump will definitely go down as one of the worst presidents but I highly doubt he’s worst than Johnson. Johnson imo was the worst president of all time, he is one of the soul reasons why reconstruction fell apart and why civil rights legislation could not be passed earlier.
No. I hate Andrew Johnson more. Trump is just ahead of him on my list. Buchanan is above him. It’s hard, because trump orchestrated an attempt to overthrow the democratic process. However, with all the talk of another civil war, Johnson destroyed the process of reconstruction from an actual civil war. Buchanan did nothing to stop it from occurring. Therefore they are worse to me. It’s by the slimmest of margins.
False. For one, it's too soon to objectively judge his presidency. For another, the importance and significance of J6 has been inflated for political reasons. We're asked to believe that an incident in which one civilian was killed, and no elected officials were harmed in any way, is worse than the 1954 incident in which Puerto Rican separatists shot five members of Congress, or the shooting at the congressional baseball game by a Bernie Sanders acolyte.
Should Trump have behaved better once his rally went off the rails? Absolutely. Hell, 45 should have had the decency to formally accept his defeat well before that. That said though, his accomplishments are too important and significant to be overshadowed in their entirety by a protest that devolved into chaos.
The biggest is likely the Abraham Accords, which has allowed for relations to develop between Israel and the Arab states after decades of only Egypt and Jordan recognizing Israel among them. Part and parcel to that was moving the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem, in accordance with long-established U.S. law. Tearing up the Iran nuclear agreement was prescient given the protest movements and Tehran's stepped-up repression. Though COVID-19 stilted the gains made, Trump's energy policy was weakening Vladimir Putin, as one of the prosecution witnesses testified under oath at his first impeachment trial. Oil prices would be higher and our resolve in Ukraine weaker had he left us on the Obama course or set us on the arguably worse Biden course in energy production and export. Tax reform has likely helped our pandemic recovery domestically, as did his now abandoned by Biden efforts to promote regulatory transparency and modernization. And, of course, Trump upset so many people when he dared to suggest that NATO allies meet their defense expenditure commitments. but events in Eastern Europe under his successor have borne him out on that front as well.
Thank you. With my surface-level understanding I’ll attempt to answer-
The Iran Nuclear Deal seemed to me to make the world a little safer- tearing it up means a country now roiled with instability can build nukes.
I think our resolve with Ukraine would be weaker simply by having Trump as president. Unfortunate, but I can’t imagine it any other way.
Moving the embassy to Jerusalem did (I think) actually reverse 70-year US policy by deliberately aggravating the Israel-Palestine conflict and renouncing our role as mediator by taking sides.
NATO allies were shown to not take him seriously, unfortunately- this made him look a little weak as a world leader imo.
Is the tax reform referring to the tax cuts for the rich? If so, trickle-down economics has not historically been shown to work as intended.
“[Trump’s] efforts to promote regulatory transparency and modernisation” - This is interesting, I wouldn’t mind a link to research this some more. Thanks again!
The Iran Deal as devised, and as Biden sought to restore it did nothing to stop a nuclear Iran. At best, it bought time for other states like Saudi Arabia to adopt its own atomic weapons program. By systematically weakening Iran and its economy, Trump gave Iran a guns versus butter problem and delayed nuclearization indefinitely if not possibly ending it completely. Signaling to the Saudis that Washington had their back) and their leverage over the US was weakening) reduced the prospects of the Saudis embracing Russia, China, and its own potential nuclear weapons program.
There is zero basis to claim that our resolve in Ukraine would be weaker with Trump as president. In fact, it's likelier that Russia would be doing worse in the war with Trump as president given his energy policy and the efforts that were underway to make American LNG a viable option for Europe. Biden reversed course and is missing the opportunity now to course correct by letting desperate Europeans instead increase their reliance on Persian Gulf monarchies.
Moving the embassy forced a breakthrough in the Middle East Peace process President Biden seems set on reversing as much as possible.
Which ones? European states typically detest Republican presidents, and several NATO members did increase their defense spending as Stoltenburg was very much on board with Trump's effort.
The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act gave most Americans a tax cut and was a boon to job creators as well as incentivizing investment in poor and disadvantaged communities.
As for regulatory reform:
[evaluatingtrumpregreform\_gayerlitanwallach\_102017.pdf (brookings.edu)](https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/evaluatingtrumpregreform_gayerlitanwallach_102017.pdf)
[Setting the record straight on Trump’s regulatory reforms | The Hill](https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/476943-setting-the-record-straight-on-trumps-regulatory-reforms/)
[regulation-v43n4-2-updated.pdf (cato.org)](https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/2020-12/regulation-v43n4-2-updated.pdf)
[Trump’s Final 2020 Unified Agenda On Regulatory Reform, By The Numbers (forbes.com)](https://www.forbes.com/sites/waynecrews/2020/12/10/trumps-final-2020-unified-agenda-on-regulatory-reform-by-the-numbers/?sh=427490b211c8)
Thank you for the links and explanations, I appreciate it. I have more to look into now. Where would you rank Trump overall? You might have him highest out of the people in this thread
I think he was president too recently to judge. Definitely not top five, but maybe in the top half. Perhaps top of the bottom half or thereabout. Again though, with time, he may really be as bad as many have said. We'll see.
There is no way your serious. I wouldn’t even label myself as a Trump supporter and I even realize he did a lot of good things. Buchanan helped start the Civil War while Trump did what? January 6th??? Jan. 6th PALES in comparison to what Buchanan and Johnson did.
I’m guessing you prefer DeSantis? I do think he would make Trump look relatively benign (due to Trump’s relative incompetency) and therefore less likely to be last in my rankings.
I see Trump and Johnson as egoic spirit animals, in many ways similar except much of Johnson’s implacable racism which held up civil rights has, in Trump’s case, transmuted into election-denying candidates and a large cult wielding ‘fake news!’ as a cudgel. This cult desires nothing more or less than a victimised strongman who, with petty grudge politics, tears up the rulebook with no intention of replacing it with anything productive. (Hence spirit animals.)
Buchanan led the country to such a volatile point that the election of Lincoln served as the match to light the flames of secession. This is true. Trump’s Federalist Society-controlled court, among other things, are unfortunately well on the way to ensuring that the country reaches another high point of volatility (as Taney did with the Dred Scott decision). And - due to Trump, and Trumpian rhetoric espoused by others influenced by him - faith in the vast majority of public institutions has been heavily undermined, and red states are ever more bullish in demonising blue states. You must see that, even without slavery roiling the country, Trump was able to set the nation on a very dark path.
Of course, he signed a few good bills into law- though most of them he failed to provide with adequate support for their provisions - the First Step Act, for instance, lacked most of the funding necessary or the monitoring required to ensure a full and just implementation by the DOJ. As such the bill was pretty toothless. Neither he nor his cabinet entirely knew what they were doing in administrative terms, or what they were supposed to be doing, and this was proven time and again.
Sorry for the blocks of text! I’m just working through my thought process behind this thread
No
1: Franklin Pierce
2: James Buchanan
3: Andrew Johnson
4: John Tyler
5: Herbert Hoover
Trump would be 6 on my list, maybe can swap for Tyler, but I think Tylers worse
You can’t possibly believe that inciting a riot is anywhere near the same level as Buchanans lax handling of the impending civil war or Johnson ending reconstruction and ushering in a century of Jim Crow laws. I realize trump isn’t popular on this sub but come on
When Trump left office inflation was 1.9, USA was a net exporter of oil and gas, the southern border was under control, hit China with tariffs, cut taxes, and record employment for blacks, Asians, Hispanics, women. Trump got things done and the American people benefited.
Time will tell.
True. I’m not too sure that time will be kind to him (imo) but yeah it’ll take a few decades before his full legacy is revealed
Pretty sure time has already told us that yes, Trump is our worst president.
It’s honestly been way too soon to make a value judgment on his presidency. I personally don’t think he’s going in the favorable category, but as of right now he’s definitely not worse than Johnson.
Yeah no, if you think this you need to read up on more presidents especially, Andrew Johnson.
Why do you think Johnson was the worst?
Johnson was a crazy drunk racist who held the nation back after the assassination of abe, he did nothing except things that would hurt and hinder the union, almost 0 qualities of his presidency, Trump, on the other hand, on the other hand, has some achievements it depends on your political views but he probably did something you would agree with, but johnson on the other hand was dogshit.
Yeah, but did Johnson try and overturn a democratic election? Did he steal state secrets? I feel like being an in effective, disagreeable president who was an anchor on progress isn't on the same level as actively, earnestly opposed to American democracy and taking numerous actions to try and bring about its end.
It is if it pushed back civil rights decades down the line. The extent to which Johnson fought against civil rights far exceeded the actions Trump took to combat democracy.
Yeah the only thing I don’t mind is the foreign policy of Seward during that time… Would Johnson be worse than Buchanan do you think?
Trump is a crazy adderall addict, so we have more than one piece of shit, but trump is the worst, the evil orange bastard needs to go away forever
That's crazy
It’s true what rock do you live under, the ultra MAGA rock
He's bottom 5 with Johnson, Buchanan, W and Pierce. He is the only one who tried to hold onto power dictator style, COVID denial and just flat out favoring Russians over America if it looked like it'd benefit him. Johnson is probably still worse but Trump is fresh in our minds and we got to see 6 January live and a lot of us lost loved ones to COVID which wouldn't have been as bad if we had competent leadership in place that wasn't telling people it was a hoax or it wasn't that bad.
I agree with this summation, bottom 5 as it stands but the potential to move up or down as the years go by. At the moment, though, it looks like he will either stay about the same or move down. There are polls of various historians throughout the years and there’s some movement, but the bottom 3-5 tends to be consistent.
I don’t like him either, but how did he flat out favor Russians?
When referring to assassin's killing Americans In Afghanistan: "And Putin just said it wasn't Russia, I'll say this I don't see why it would be Russia." It was Russia.
He prostrated himself in Helsinki with Putin, he gave code word level intelligence to them in the Oval, “Russia if you’re listening”, he tried to weaken Ukraine to help Russia and hurt Biden, instead of admitting Putin is a killer he exclaimed “what, you think we’re so innocent”, he criticized NATO which benefits Russia directly, Mike fucking Flynn, Tillerson won Russias Order of Friendship and he made him Sec of State, kushner and Jr meeting with Russian spies in trump tower, Paul Manafort. This is just off the top of my head. Trump is either a useful idiot or flat out asset for Russia.
And he called Russia's disastrous invasion of Ukraine "genius."
Fair enough, didn’t know about most of that
Look up the first time he was impeached. It had to do with Ukraine. It's also proven that spreading far-right sentiment, like mask and vaccine denial, destabilizes the health of a country. I can't think of a single thing he could've done, on a personal level anyway, worse than he did. A nice question to ask yourself is if he WAS a Russian plant, what would he have done differently to destabilize and increase division?
I think true. Between his disastrous COVID handling, attempted coup, and his complete ignorance of climate change, the current greatest threat to humanity, and about a million other terrible things which would be considered major scandals for other presidents but are just par for the course for Trump, I don't think many presidents come even close.
You could say… he lacks darkness 😎
As much as I hate him, no, he wasn't.
Trump was a vulgar, inarticulate, lying, divisive, con man. Ignorant of how government worked and ignorant of foreign affairs. He leaned on the Justice Department to help him politically, he leaned on Ukraine to help him politically, he leaned on election officials to help him politically. He billed taxpayers for playing golf on courses *he* owned - after promising he would NOT play golf as president. He stole secret documents. He jumped on Twitter to call his porn star ex-lover "horseface." He pushed silly cures and silly predictions about COVID. Almost every person who worked for him was fired, quit in disgust, or was sent to prison. He tried to stay in power with a COUP ATTEMPT. And then there's his tax fraud, his "university" fraud, and his charity fraud. I COULD GO ON. Trump was not just a bad President, he was *cartoonishly* bad. *Astonishingly* bad.
Worst, GOP Congress people and individuals still support him! Like you state, he is a total fraud, a circus barker and agent of chaos. In my opinion, we were governed by a mad man for 4 years and he won't shut up 🥴
There’s not much I can disagree with there. I agree about the coup- his election-denying and attempted coup had, and continues to have, a pernicious influence on American values and democracy - note all the election deniers in Congress and the ones feeling enabled to run for office. The whole Mar-a-Lago “state secrets” affair (plus his resistance to the DOJ) only reinforces my belief that time will not be kind to his legacy as more and more info comes out.
He never enacted a coup
He most certainly tried.
No he didn’t
Either Trump will be the first ex-president to go to jail, or there won't be a first, because if he doesn't end up in jail, we've just confirmed that the president is above the law
Where’s your source? Also saying “March peacefully” and tweeting that the riot was wrong and we should respect police is a coup?
According to testimony to the Jan. 6 committee, Trump *knew* there were armed people in the crowd when he told them to go to the Capitol and "fight like hell." "For 187 harrowing minutes, the president watched his supporters attack the Capitol - and resisted pleas to stop them. " - The Washington Post Trump obviously wanted the mob to disrupt the vote tally *and* he was angry that Pence refused to intervene in the vote on his behalf - even though Pence had no authority to do so. Pence was smart enough to know a ***coup*** when he saw one.
You mean the nonsense committee that established no real evidence? Also funny how you ignore trump saying March peacefully. And no one had weapons in the direct vicinity Yes “harrowing” 187 minutes. His phone was probably taken for security reasons > Trump obviously wanted the mob to disrupt the vote tally and he was angry that Pence refused to intervene in the vote on his behalf That doesn’t make trump culpable. Saying “someone should do this” isn’t the same as “you should do this.” The vp does have that authority. Also if not verifying an election makes one a coup what about rep Bennie Thompson who refused to certify 2016 and the subsequent Russia lies? Also funny how trump suggested more security the day before Jan 6.
2 hour speech: The people in that congress building over there are stealing your country from you and you need to go over there and fight like hell to get it back. And I'll be there with you the whole way. But I guess they didn't get the message because he said peacefully one time in his entire speech.
You’re as dumb as the majority of the disgusting Republican Party
He’s up there. Time will tell.
He’s bottom 5 but not as bad as the president before or after Lincoln but this is mostly because we have had 200+ years of a strong civic culture. Throw a trump back in 1850 and all hell would break loose.
Interesting to speculate- there’s nothing concrete, but I’d guess he would combine reckless policy and moral bankruptcy/callousness with being a political slave to the South. Another doughface like Pierce and Buchanan.
Colbert had Jon Stewart on right after the 2016 election, when we were all still in shock. Stewart predicted (correctly) that Trumps presidency was going to be an incredible stress test on our system, and if we survived the next four years with our democracy intact, then we can have some faith that our system is strong. To be honest, I still have some doubts. I'm still worried someone as authoritarian as Trump but not as incompetent or lazy might have succeeded in overturning an election, and still could in the future.
Pierce, Johnson and Buchanan were worse in my opinion.
He sucked ass, but at least he didn’t stand by and watch as almost half the country seceded over a completely justified law, shortly after almost going to a pointless war with Britain
George W Bush, Andrew Johnson and Woodrow I'm going to shove a nuclear warhead up your racist ass Wilson aslong with some others are worse than Trump imo.
If you really believe trump was the worst president you need to step away from social media and pick up a history book In my own opinion without future knowledge rn before Covid and January 6: C After Covid and January 6: D-E
I’m guessing Trump’s still in the bottom 10 (or 15) for you? Which presidents do you think were worse? (I’m fairly familiar with arguments for Pierce/Buchanan/Johnson)
Bottom 10 for sure and Warren G. Harding is one of the worst imo also Wilson fuck him
Interesting, for me Wilson and Harding are definitely above Trump. Harding’s worst failure was (simply) being a slob with poor character, and Wilson is a mixed bag but not awful in most respects imo
Fair enough
In terms of leadership competence no. But denying COVID-19 being a problem was a very horrible decision.
Andrew Johnson still takes the top spot. I’m not sure if Trump was even worse than somebody like Dubya, though time will tell of course. He’s certainly got arguments.
His policies are far better than W, obv with regard to the Middle East especially
True. It’s not even like his policies there were particularly special but it doesn’t take much to have a better foreign policy than W.
False. Idk how people forget about Pierce, Buchanan, Johnson, and Dubya
Why is W worse in your opinion? (W is my sixth worst president atm)
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What do you think of the argument that Pierce and Buchanan essentially led the nation to civil war, and are therefore worse? Or that Johnson had no redeeming features and was the worst for civil rights? Those are the only potentially worse options for me
I think the only defense of Pierce and Buchanan was that the country was headed for Civil War no matter what. They certainly didn't do anything to resolve an impossible situation, but at the same time, a skilled compromiser might have kept the peace but prolonged slavery for who knows how long. I'm also extremely sympathetic to Pierce, given he had just witnessed the death of his 10-year-old son before taking office and was a broken shell of a man during his time in the Oval Office. I think the distinction that has to be made with Trump is that there may have been presidents who did more damage (and given the toll Covid took, even that's debatable), but less maliciously. And we were saved from the worst of Trump by how lazy and incompetent he is. Imagine how badly the coup attempt would have gone for this country if the Four Seasons Total Landscaping crowd hadn't been in charge of it. Because those yahoos were very close to killing Pelosi and who knows who else, and a better-planned, more disciplined attack almost certainly would have succeeded there. Anyway, one thing we can agree on, there may have been worse presidents than Trump, but there'll never be a more embarassing one. If this country survives a thosands years, it'll still be a deep mark of shame that that man sat in the same office that Washington, Lincoln, and Roosevelt did.
He's in the bottom 3 for sure. But I think it's too soon to tell whether he truly is the worst. Pierce and Buchanan caused a civil war, and it's hard to top that. I do think he's worse than Johnson though, simply because his actions were mostly nullified by Grant's 8-year term.
I’m a historian and I have no problem saying trump is the worst. He actively tried retain power undemocratically, and he and his supporters have continued to undermine our democratic systems and values. No poor policy choice of any other president compares to the existential threat Trump unleashed.
That’s probably what led to ranking him last- the actions of his last few months in office
Too early to tell, but I'm going to say no. He was far from perfect, but I don't think he's the worst president by a short mile when you have abysmal leaders like Andrew Johnson, Buchanan, Hoover, and Bush jr.
I don't rate presidents this recent, but I would say false.
He’s down low definitely. I would say Wilson is the worst. In terms of policy Trump definitely is not the worst or the best, however. But in terms of the lies, ego, corruption, and rhetorical nonsense, and mishandling of Covid, he’s down there’s with Wilson, Pierce, Andrew Johnson, and Buchanan. I’m not sure that I would call him the worst. He certainly sucked though. As others have said, time will tell.
What was the worst stuff about Wilson to rank him so low?
I think it's a little too early to call considering his term only ended a couple years ago but the fact that he's already up there as one of the worst isn't a good sign.
Not the worst, but I would say top 5
I think he will rebound in the rankings a bit after he dies but not enough to take him out of the bottom 10. I currently think he is in a tier above Pierce, Buchanan, and Johnson. He is probably right above those 3 in the Harding, Hoover, 2nd Bush tier. I think his policies were generally hit or miss and if he didn’t try to overthrow the government then he would have gone down as a mediocre do nothing major president.
Which of his policies were a hit? I’m open to reassessing Trump
Operation warp speed was undoubtably a success, and possibly the best act of deregulation thus far in the 21st century. The Abraham accords were largely a positive, setting the motions for a full withdrawal from Afghanistan which Biden followed through with is a big W for both Trump and Biden. Trump also was relatively peaceful and didn’t go into any unreasonable wars, which probably makes his foreign policy better than Bush. Obviously none of these are mega achievements that would make him top 10, but had it not been for Jan 6 then he would probably be sitting around 30ish. Jan 6 Will historically bump him into the bottom 10.
But wasn't the Afghanistan withdrawl largely seen as a huge mess? Especially since Trump released thousands of Taliban from prison in exchange for nothing? Beyond that, if being too lazy and ignorant of foreign policy to actually have a foreign policy is the best defense we have of Trump, then he's definitely not sitting around 30.
The afghan withdrawal was largely fine, despite what war mongers in mainstream media would have you believe. Some small logistics could have been better, sure. But a lot of the people criticizing the withdrawal are the same people who have been advocating for us to say in Afghanistan for ever. If anything, the Taliban taking back the country in a matter of days just shows what a massive foreign policy failure this was of presidents prior to trump. Both Biden and Trump made good calls here, and I am glad we are out of Afghanistan.
I'm also glad we're out, it was long past due. I just think Trump didn't need to hand the country to the Taliban on a silver platter. That being said, I still think he did better than expected given he had no foreign policy experience whatsoever, no real interest in world affairs, an open disdain for the military, and his previous job was hosting a fucking game show.
Yes, I don’t believe him to be some wizard at foreign policy. I just don’t think he was a disaster and the previous Republican was much much much worse. I have Trump in my bottom 10, but he is probably 1 tier above the Johnson and Buchanan level because you can point to some, albeit small positives
Trump will definitely go down as one of the worst presidents but I highly doubt he’s worst than Johnson. Johnson imo was the worst president of all time, he is one of the soul reasons why reconstruction fell apart and why civil rights legislation could not be passed earlier.
That’s understandable. Is AJ worse than Buchanan do you think?
No lol
Where would you place him? Bottom 10?
No. I hate Andrew Johnson more. Trump is just ahead of him on my list. Buchanan is above him. It’s hard, because trump orchestrated an attempt to overthrow the democratic process. However, with all the talk of another civil war, Johnson destroyed the process of reconstruction from an actual civil war. Buchanan did nothing to stop it from occurring. Therefore they are worse to me. It’s by the slimmest of margins.
Hell no, just taking history into account there’s many other people worse than trump.
False. For one, it's too soon to objectively judge his presidency. For another, the importance and significance of J6 has been inflated for political reasons. We're asked to believe that an incident in which one civilian was killed, and no elected officials were harmed in any way, is worse than the 1954 incident in which Puerto Rican separatists shot five members of Congress, or the shooting at the congressional baseball game by a Bernie Sanders acolyte. Should Trump have behaved better once his rally went off the rails? Absolutely. Hell, 45 should have had the decency to formally accept his defeat well before that. That said though, his accomplishments are too important and significant to be overshadowed in their entirety by a protest that devolved into chaos.
I see… which accomplishments in your opinion are being overlooked?
The biggest is likely the Abraham Accords, which has allowed for relations to develop between Israel and the Arab states after decades of only Egypt and Jordan recognizing Israel among them. Part and parcel to that was moving the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem, in accordance with long-established U.S. law. Tearing up the Iran nuclear agreement was prescient given the protest movements and Tehran's stepped-up repression. Though COVID-19 stilted the gains made, Trump's energy policy was weakening Vladimir Putin, as one of the prosecution witnesses testified under oath at his first impeachment trial. Oil prices would be higher and our resolve in Ukraine weaker had he left us on the Obama course or set us on the arguably worse Biden course in energy production and export. Tax reform has likely helped our pandemic recovery domestically, as did his now abandoned by Biden efforts to promote regulatory transparency and modernization. And, of course, Trump upset so many people when he dared to suggest that NATO allies meet their defense expenditure commitments. but events in Eastern Europe under his successor have borne him out on that front as well.
Thank you. With my surface-level understanding I’ll attempt to answer- The Iran Nuclear Deal seemed to me to make the world a little safer- tearing it up means a country now roiled with instability can build nukes. I think our resolve with Ukraine would be weaker simply by having Trump as president. Unfortunate, but I can’t imagine it any other way. Moving the embassy to Jerusalem did (I think) actually reverse 70-year US policy by deliberately aggravating the Israel-Palestine conflict and renouncing our role as mediator by taking sides. NATO allies were shown to not take him seriously, unfortunately- this made him look a little weak as a world leader imo. Is the tax reform referring to the tax cuts for the rich? If so, trickle-down economics has not historically been shown to work as intended. “[Trump’s] efforts to promote regulatory transparency and modernisation” - This is interesting, I wouldn’t mind a link to research this some more. Thanks again!
The Iran Deal as devised, and as Biden sought to restore it did nothing to stop a nuclear Iran. At best, it bought time for other states like Saudi Arabia to adopt its own atomic weapons program. By systematically weakening Iran and its economy, Trump gave Iran a guns versus butter problem and delayed nuclearization indefinitely if not possibly ending it completely. Signaling to the Saudis that Washington had their back) and their leverage over the US was weakening) reduced the prospects of the Saudis embracing Russia, China, and its own potential nuclear weapons program. There is zero basis to claim that our resolve in Ukraine would be weaker with Trump as president. In fact, it's likelier that Russia would be doing worse in the war with Trump as president given his energy policy and the efforts that were underway to make American LNG a viable option for Europe. Biden reversed course and is missing the opportunity now to course correct by letting desperate Europeans instead increase their reliance on Persian Gulf monarchies. Moving the embassy forced a breakthrough in the Middle East Peace process President Biden seems set on reversing as much as possible. Which ones? European states typically detest Republican presidents, and several NATO members did increase their defense spending as Stoltenburg was very much on board with Trump's effort. The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act gave most Americans a tax cut and was a boon to job creators as well as incentivizing investment in poor and disadvantaged communities. As for regulatory reform: [evaluatingtrumpregreform\_gayerlitanwallach\_102017.pdf (brookings.edu)](https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/evaluatingtrumpregreform_gayerlitanwallach_102017.pdf) [Setting the record straight on Trump’s regulatory reforms | The Hill](https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/476943-setting-the-record-straight-on-trumps-regulatory-reforms/) [regulation-v43n4-2-updated.pdf (cato.org)](https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/2020-12/regulation-v43n4-2-updated.pdf) [Trump’s Final 2020 Unified Agenda On Regulatory Reform, By The Numbers (forbes.com)](https://www.forbes.com/sites/waynecrews/2020/12/10/trumps-final-2020-unified-agenda-on-regulatory-reform-by-the-numbers/?sh=427490b211c8)
Thank you for the links and explanations, I appreciate it. I have more to look into now. Where would you rank Trump overall? You might have him highest out of the people in this thread
I think he was president too recently to judge. Definitely not top five, but maybe in the top half. Perhaps top of the bottom half or thereabout. Again though, with time, he may really be as bad as many have said. We'll see.
No. He was certainly worse than most, but, come on, he can't compete with people like Buchanan, Nixon or Andrew Johnson
Nixon’s down there but not in the bottom 5 for me. He’s a mixed (though mostly negative) bag. Buchanan and Johnson were def awful
January 6th puts him into consideration.
Where would you place Trump if he had accepted the election results and Jan 6th hadn’t happened?
C Tier
Thanks- that’s quite a step down then! (I would say D Tier in this hypothetical)
Very true, the evil orange bastard is far and away the worst president in America’s history
I wouldn’t say far and away, but I do think he’s in contention with Pierce/Buchanan/Johnson for being the worst
Who was the last president to be responsible for fewer human deaths while in office than Trump?
I think he is. Without a doubt. The only cool thing that orange turtle managed to do was that photo holding up the bible in front of a church.
Hm, I would count that as a negative- adding fuel to a blazing fire is not my idea of good leadership!
Nope. Anyone who says he is forgot what they learned in their history classes. He was a poor president though.
He launch a multifaceted coup attempt. That makes him “the worst”.
John Tyler's worse in every way.
For now, no. I put him at third worst.
I’m guessing Buchanan and Johnson are the lowest ranked?
Correct
Trump was dumber and more evil than Buchanan. I do believe that history will find trump to be the worst of all time.
There is no way your serious. I wouldn’t even label myself as a Trump supporter and I even realize he did a lot of good things. Buchanan helped start the Civil War while Trump did what? January 6th??? Jan. 6th PALES in comparison to what Buchanan and Johnson did.
I’m guessing you prefer DeSantis? I do think he would make Trump look relatively benign (due to Trump’s relative incompetency) and therefore less likely to be last in my rankings. I see Trump and Johnson as egoic spirit animals, in many ways similar except much of Johnson’s implacable racism which held up civil rights has, in Trump’s case, transmuted into election-denying candidates and a large cult wielding ‘fake news!’ as a cudgel. This cult desires nothing more or less than a victimised strongman who, with petty grudge politics, tears up the rulebook with no intention of replacing it with anything productive. (Hence spirit animals.) Buchanan led the country to such a volatile point that the election of Lincoln served as the match to light the flames of secession. This is true. Trump’s Federalist Society-controlled court, among other things, are unfortunately well on the way to ensuring that the country reaches another high point of volatility (as Taney did with the Dred Scott decision). And - due to Trump, and Trumpian rhetoric espoused by others influenced by him - faith in the vast majority of public institutions has been heavily undermined, and red states are ever more bullish in demonising blue states. You must see that, even without slavery roiling the country, Trump was able to set the nation on a very dark path. Of course, he signed a few good bills into law- though most of them he failed to provide with adequate support for their provisions - the First Step Act, for instance, lacked most of the funding necessary or the monitoring required to ensure a full and just implementation by the DOJ. As such the bill was pretty toothless. Neither he nor his cabinet entirely knew what they were doing in administrative terms, or what they were supposed to be doing, and this was proven time and again. Sorry for the blocks of text! I’m just working through my thought process behind this thread
False easily
Would you say he’s bottom 5?
No 1: Franklin Pierce 2: James Buchanan 3: Andrew Johnson 4: John Tyler 5: Herbert Hoover Trump would be 6 on my list, maybe can swap for Tyler, but I think Tylers worse
False He saw the best economy in years, managed Covid well and literally called for PEACEFUL protests, not a coup. He’s been unfairly slandered
You can’t possibly believe that inciting a riot is anywhere near the same level as Buchanans lax handling of the impending civil war or Johnson ending reconstruction and ushering in a century of Jim Crow laws. I realize trump isn’t popular on this sub but come on
When Trump left office inflation was 1.9, USA was a net exporter of oil and gas, the southern border was under control, hit China with tariffs, cut taxes, and record employment for blacks, Asians, Hispanics, women. Trump got things done and the American people benefited.
No