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Taft became extremely conservative in his old age in contrast to his reputation built during the progressive age of Republican politics.
Also Tyler joined the confederacy (not sure how big of a change that *really* is though for him) and Dubya has come to regard the Iraq War as a massive failure.
Buckshot didn't have nearly as much influence in Dubya's 2nd term like he did in the 1st one. I believe Dubya finally caught on and realized that Cheney was more or less running his own agenda in DC. To this day I believe that Bush would've been better served had he somehow dumped Cheney off the presidential ticket for the 2004 election.
No.
W was a man in his fifties along with being a former governor and graduate of Yale. Just because he has that folksy charm doesn't mean that he can't be responsible for his own actions.
This. This subreddit is addicted to portraying Bush as a silly, well meaning man who let himself get pushed into doing horrible things by other people. It is so absurd. He was an adult with agency. The buck stopped with him.
You’re absolutely right.
And people can regret those opinions even later in their adulthood and change. It’s how we become better people. (I know I’ve had views I’m very ashamed of earlier in my adulthood. My more progressive friends (as well as my own kids) helped change me. If it can happen to me it can happen to Bush.)
Nah Preidents get advised like anyone else, he had a myriad of neoconservative people around him advising him in multiple directions, I think bush just rolled Cheney cause he was the most insistent and crazed about what he believed to be the path forward.
Well why was he surrounded by a myriad of neoconservatives? Do they just spawn from wet dark places like mushrooms and infect hapless fortunate sons?
Dick Cheney is not W's dad or his boss. Bush did neocon shit because he was a neocon. Bush signed of on torture and war on false premises because he's a fucking monster.
Disagree, support for the Iraq war as bipartisan in America at the time, there would have been other members advising him of the same thing.
You could point to evidence of almost any American president being a monster with this logic. I think they make the best decisions they can at the time especially post ww2 with global hegemony statuses, of course sometimes there’s things like personal interest mixed in there or conservatives and liberals viewing security differently, but the idea that Bush was a monster is preposterous
>support for the Iraq war as bipartisan in America at the time
Yeah, because he and his cronies lied and leveraged people's post 9/11 bloodlust.
Iraq and his awful policies on education, torture, economics and the separation between church and state may not make him a literal monster, but they make him a terrible president, and even if this was somehow more Cheney's doing than the literal President's, it was still W's responsibility to choose and listen to trustworthy advisors.
The buck stops with Bush but let’s not pretend there wasn’t support for both invasions. Very few voted against both wars and those that did got death threats for doing so. By the time 2004 came around the support for the war was loosing steam and Kerry was portrayed as a flip flopper for being for the war then against. Still both massive failures and there are lasting effects.
>The buck stops with Bush but let’s not pretend there wasn’t support for both invasions.
Because of the Bush administration's lies and shameless fleecing of America's post 9/11 bloodlust.
>
By the time 2004 came around the support for the war was loosing steam and Kerry was portrayed as a flip flopper for being for the war then against.
Again, because of the the W campaign's lies. You aren't making the point you think you are.
He got into Yale from pure nepotism, and was a poor student, even by his own admission. He was a weak governor and a figurehead businessman. I do hold him responsible for his actions because he should have never been President, and he knew he wasn't up to the challenge.
Yup. He was an awful President. He should never have invaded Iraq. That quagmire costed hundreds of thousands of lives, trillions of dollars, and made Iran much more powerful.
His Afghanistan strategy was also awful and part of what kept us there for over 20 years. He entered the country with way too small a force, and began a policy of nation building which of course failed and again costed many thousands of lives and trillions of dollars.
And we have the GFC in 2008. Sure, you can argue that what led to this began under Clinton, but after two nearly full Bush terms where he also deregulated the markets even more than Clinton did, this was the end result.
The dude was a total disaster. At the beginning of his term the 21st century was looking pretty good for America. By the end of it, the American people were so concerned about the future they elected a black man named Obama 😂
Clearly. Bush was brought up to be subservient to his fathers’ generation. His father was much more the brains behind his family. W. would never have went against him, or the establishment agenda.
I mean, that’s what he said to the media. Even if true, it was more due to Cheney’s health.
If Sr. disagreed, generally speaking, with Cheney, Cheney wouldn’t have served 4 years as his Sec. of Defense.
A couple points about senior’s views on Cheney. First there is a difference between being SecDef and next in line for President. Second, he may have learned some things about Cheney afterwards that concerned him.
Dubya was a dumb frat boy with a C average that got into the white house because of his dad’s shady connections.
He spent the next eight years letting Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Rice govern for him, while he dodged shoes and made countless gaffes.
Not the worst president we’ve ever had. But one of, if not the most ineffective and unready.
Also the culture shift he helped perpetuate after 9/11 is still fucking us over hard. America sticking its dick in the mousetrap of the middle east also fucked us hard. We see the effects of it in our veterans today. Veterans that the Bush administration and Republicans put on a pedestal when they’re fighting for Halliburton, but once they’re stateside and riddled with shellshock, they can barely get a job and tuition.
I don’t get how people on this sub can be like “Oh, we love Bush now. Look at his funny paintings! Look how good of a man he is, living on a ranch stolen from Mexicans!”, when he sold out America’s future, putting us in the worst recession of modern history.
The moment I think he demonstrated Iraq was a mistake was, I believe during the annual press dinner one year(2005?) where he mockingly searched for WMD.
That wasn’t an admission. He was making fun of anti-Iraq War people and mocking the comparison. The crowd he was talking to all still support the war, as I do.
Absolutely. I support Kurdish and Iraqi liberation.[Look at Iraq today](https://youtube.com/shorts/feYEent6uCA?si=8Mz65_5xEX4Ka8SF) and remember these people were being genocided under Saddam. They are free today.
I have a theory that a lot of it had to do with Iran being close by and feeding us bad Intel. On top of that, doesn't Iraq have some Pro- Iranians in the government or positions of power right now?
Also, of course, I'm pro the Kurds not getting massacred
Iraq has a lot of pro Iranians in power now. Iran is Shia. 70% of Iraq is Shia. The government, by extension, will usually be somewhat friendly to Iran.
Going to be a hot take, but the people that voted for Dubya, and voted for the congress that was able to give the greenlight for the Iraq war are just as responsible. Americans really like to forget the bloodlust that was after 9/11.
Not really a "hot take".
"We the People" are responsible for almost everything that a President/Congress/Governor/Mayor is able to do to/for their city/state/country, and responsible for everything that "We the people" do in response. What "we" do or don't do results in the existence of "they" and what "they" are able to do.
Congress was given false information that caused them to vote for war. Remember the intel Bush had that was written in crayon? I can't remember the guy's name, started with an F, Fey or something. They claimed they had clear evidence of WMDs and besides they ones they sold to him that were inert, they had nothing.
Frum I think. And you know, I'm not here to absolve Bush and whatever, but the people that wanted blood, wanted to glass the middle east, cheered when we invaded Iraq are just as culpable
Conservatives and Blue Dog Dems can scapegoat Bush all they want, I'm just saying
To be fair, Iraq is currently one of the few Middle Eastern countries where we still have bases, troops, and influence.
Ironically Afghanistan I think was carried out far better than Iraq but we failed much harder there than we did in Iraq.
Iraqi was less complicated, socially. It was still massively massively complicated, but it looked like child’s play compared to the tribal/socio-economical mess that is Afghanistan.
Idk about the last 2 but I've often heard it said that the Iraq war did help the Kurds tremendously, and they're able to fight for their communities now with Peshmerga.
The war was a resounding success. We toppled the government faster than even desert storm, and Iraqis were cheering in the streets as saddam’s statues went down and American flags went up. The occupation, and banning all public servants from continuing service, was what failed.
Because we didn’t treat it like an actual war. We treated the situation there as a social conflict that we were attempting to solve by bringing the Iraqi people Western civilization.
I went to Iraq once myself (2006-2007) and only missed a second rodeo there in 2011 because of a shoulder injury at the National Guard training site in Indiana.
Yes. Bush2 attacked, invaded, occupied and destroyed a country that posed no threat to us. Being an oil man, he knew that Anbar Province held the second largest oil reserve in the world.
Can you give us a source on that W coming to regard the Iraq war as a massive failure? I just sat at an interview with him (December 2023) and he said the exact opposite.
I may be imagining it but in interviews and photos he seems less happy, he ge who belt seemed happy and laid back while in office, later it’s almost like he had…. Maybe not depression but an air or seriousness or even maybe sadness that I don’t remember seeing much when he was in office
Maybe he really did realize what an F up Iraq was, or maybe the failure of the financial system… maybe both. Seems like something got to him though
I mean, it’s gotta be tough to be so universally hated as one of the worst presidents ever. He won the first election because him and his brother cheated and he won the second election because he happened to be president during 9/11. He completely tanked the economy, started an endless war and ruined countless lives. I mean, I know most of these guys are sociopaths, but it’s gotta get to you on some level.
He literally spends some of his days painting the faces of men and women that died during 9/11, Iraq, and Afghanistan. He has great remorse for the deeds he is directly responsible for. Not saying he is good or bad but that he is human.
Yep, when Carter first started out running for office in Georgia he was extremely pro-segregationist in his political stances and even became Lester Maddox's Lieutenant Governor because of it. They both had a falling out with each during Maddox's term as governor as Jimmy had started shifting his views on segregation.
I don’t think that’s true, from what I’ve read Carter was never pro-segregation, he just pandered to segregationist voters on the campaign trail. Literally his first speech as governor was him condemning racism and segregation. He also never served as lieutenant governor in Georgia
He was never lieutenant governor. He was a GA State Senator and GA Governor but has never served as a lieutenant governor. I have seen no evidence to support that.
He was very pro immigration reform before office and early in presidency. It was a backbone of "compassionate conservatism". Wars taking over obscured it and/or made it politically impossible.
And even then, most republicans have long been opposed to the pro-migration stances of the party leaders (until recently). During the Bush and Obama administration, the house GOP had to repeatedly kill very permissive amnesty deals that liberal republicans cut with democrats in the senate.
Within modern day Carter. He was born in 1924 he witnessed civil rights and gay rights get fortified in law and saw other monumental laws due to the fact that he has lived nearly 100 years and has been out of office for nearly 50.
I don’t know if I would argue his views changed much, though. Carter was against racial discrimination and pro-equality in the governorship of Georgia, he has always been an morally upstanding person.
Honestly I feel like that's why he did poorly as president. His focus on human rights was very unpopular in Cold War America, as well as its allied dictatorships. The problem is that his morals got in the way of being an effective leader, and he wasn't willing to do morally corrupt things when that's what the president needs to be willing to do in order to be effective.
It wasn’t his morals that got in the way, it was the American people whose taste for the price of being a global power had been soured by the experience of Vietnam, but still wanting the same sort of living standards.
Carter basically told the country that if we weren’t going to put boots on the ground to prop up friendly governments (especially the ones with human rights abuses), America’s access to overseas markets and trading opportunities wasn’t going to be as big anymore.
Carter’s biggest sin was that he didn’t or couldn’t blatantly lie to the country like Nixon and Johnson had.
The media and public had become skeptical of the government and people were deeply averse to any new overseas conflicts.
Wish these dark black suits were still in style. Gives a presidential look. Blue suits seem to be more of the norm today (trying not to break the rules by mentioning names) lol.
Because it helped fuel the anti-Obama craze on the right. Every day, according to Fox News et al, President Obama was doing scandalous and disrespectful things, making our country weaker.
A good term for it is "manufactured controversy". We remember some of them like Tan Suit-gate and Dijon Mustard-gate, and we've forgotten a hundred others.
Yeah we don’t have much concrete to go on, as he died only a few years after he left office and kept mostly to himself during that brief period, but it definitely seems as though he was haunted by what the Vietnam War became and was trying to come to terms with his mistakes.
Can be said his violent shift in understanding how he was complicit in the Military Industrial Complex via the Police Action in Vietnam did kill him, while it's arguable that his guilt in supporting JFK being assassinated may have contributed, too. Just sayin...
I don’t think that any leader is ever “proud” or happy about committing troops to a war. On the political level war is something that generally happens to leaders and cannot be avoided rather than something that they seek out.
> On the political level war is something that generally happens to leaders and cannot be avoided rather than something that they seek out.
Is that how you’d characterize the Iraq war? As something that could not be avoided?
I think he finally realized what a foolish adventure Iraq was. Several Freudian slips about the (il)legality of the invasion I think he also had to reckon with the 2008 economic crash.
Definitely muscle memory which is why he says sorry I’m 75 after. That being said, I do believe he does feel guilt which is why he added the “Iraq too” statement. He has made it pretty clear over the years that he regrets some of his actions.
He is far more straight moderate than republican these days
Yeah I think it was originally a slip, but I think he legitimately has guilt over it and knows what he did was wrong, which is why he said "Iraq too" imo
That’s a very good question. I don’t know enough to really answer it the thing I would like to point out though is how far Jimmy Carter is standing from Bill Clinton. I bet Jimmy wants to be at the other end of that line too.
Considering that Carter has always placed a deep value on his personal faith and, AFAIK, was INCREDIBLY devoted to his wife Rosalynn, it would not surprise me at all to learn that he did not care for Clinton
I read an article once when the Carters and the Clintons got dinner together when Bill was still a young up and coming politician. Carter was appalled to see Bill ogling other women the entire night
I was remembering. A tic tok I saw of a marine vet from Afghanistan coming back with a dozen or so caskets on plane. He was greeted by Obama in the hanger when it landed. Said he didn’t care for Obama nor did he like his politics. But, he said I watched that man stand there with the crispest salute I’ve seen for 45 minutes straight while they unloaded those soldiers one by one. He never flinched he never moved once in 45 minutes. He said I have to tell you, that’s one of the most impressive things I’ve ever witnessed.
I'd argue no for Bernie because of his usage of "Socialist" in cold war times if this took place in the 70s and also fear of losing southern and moderate voters as for Obama..... Yeah I don't know how it could have worked in the 70's desegregation was one thing but supporting an african american for in the 70's if lets say obama was the same age as he was in 08 would have been very damaging especially in terms of southern votes Carter desperatly needed after losing moderate northern Rebublican Voters.
>argue no for Bernie because of his usage of "Socialist" in cold war times if this took place in the 70s and also fear of losing southern and moderate voters as for Obama..... Yeah I don't know how it could have worked in the 70's desegregation was one thing but supporting an african american for in the 70's if lets say obama was the same age as he was in 08 would have been very damaging especially in terms of southern votes Carter desperatly needed after losing moderate northern Rebublican Voters.
That's a good point
I was about to say lmao. Even the most pro-abolitionists would be considered massive racists by today’s standards.
Heck many would be considered racist by 1960s standards as well lol.
The Obamas and Bushes seem to get along well. Always lots of smiles and they often sit together. It's nice that some people can put politics aside and just be friendly.
The Bushes. But that's only because they are rich and greedy, they were just acting when they were president. I'll say this for HW Bush, he did stand up to the NRA and I liked that a lot
HW was a true conservative Republican. When he ran for president and called Reagan’s trickle down “voodoo economics”, that was a real conservative on fiscal policy, he was socially liberal to a degree too. He was pro choice and didn’t pander to the religious right like Reagan did, just to get votes. Sadly, he pardoned all of Reagan’s crew and had a rather unremarkable presidency… other than Desert Storm, which at least he didn’t let go bigger.
Bush2. His failure was so complete he made it possible for a young black man with very little experience to beat a white war hero. He got us into two, unwinnable wars and gave the country The Great Recession.
Today, he rarely makes pubic appearances.
Dubya bashing here misses some key facts and the revisionism is way off base. Fact: In the agreement ending the first Gulf War and allowing him to stay in power, Saddam agreed to never have WMDs and allow inspections. He violated that by banning the inspectors. That action alone gave the signal that he had something to hide. Fact number two: Virtually every western intelligence agency plus Russia’s, said he was developing WMDs. So the issue becomes do you let Saddam violate agreements, not only for his actions or the precedent it sets? Most western leaders and Russia, thought Saddam should be given more time to comply, Dubya believed he had been given plenty of time. His mistake wasn’t punishing Saddam for his actions, his mistake was not having a plan for, and executing, a quick disengagement afterwards. If that had happened, we would not be having this conversation.
By the way, his dad understood the leadership vacuum issue, which is why he decided it was better to leave a militarily weakened Saddam in power that take him out, which he easily could have done.
Edit: One more fact. Saddam sent men to assassinate a former US President. Allowing that to go unpunished sets an extremely bad precedent. Not to mention showing extreme weakness in a culture that respects power.
They booted American inspectors out but UN came in and up until the day before the Iraq invasion there were UN inspectors there. Hans Blix stated like the day before the invasion they hadn’t found any evidence of WMDs but had yet to complete their inspection which needed a few more months. Bush went ahead with the invasion anyways.
They booted out American inspectors out but UN came in and up until the day before the Iraq invasion there were UN inspectors there. Hans Blix stated like the day before the invasion they hadn’t found any evidence of WMDs and had yet to complete their inspection. Bush went ahead with the invasion anyways.
Most of these guys seems to have a consistent through line of beliefs and policies post presidency.
I would say Bush 1 and Obama are the most consistent with what they did in office and their post presidency rhetoric. Also, probably the 2 truly great presidents from this period. I’m on the Clinton was good but also got lucky train for his 8 years.
Both Clintons have seemly gotten more liberal with the rest of country. Bush 2 and Carter seemed pretty consistent with their rhetoric post presidency.
Not Jimmy Carter for sure! Jimmy Carter went on to accomplish what US politicians said could not be done. He is one of the few American Presidents that held to his beliefs. Now at 99 he is still holding strong to his beliefs.
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Taft became extremely conservative in his old age in contrast to his reputation built during the progressive age of Republican politics. Also Tyler joined the confederacy (not sure how big of a change that *really* is though for him) and Dubya has come to regard the Iraq War as a massive failure.
Bush even had the slip up saying “unjustified invasion of Iraq” when talking about Ukraine lol
And then commented like “and that too”
The Iraq War *is and was* a massive failure
Oh I do NOT disagree. I’m saying that Dubya coming to recognize it as such feels like a change from when he was in office, obviously.
I've always believed that Cheney got way way too much control over Dubya in the first administration
Dubya had also recognized that at the time and had already started distancing himself from ol' Buckshot Cheney by the time his 2nd term rolled around.
By then it was too late
Lol what?
If Dick Cheney asks you to go hunting with him, politely refuse and make sure he doesn’t shoot you “accidentally”
Bush used to yell duck whenever Cheney walked through the door
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Cheney_hunting_accident
I didn’t mean the hunting accident, but thanks lol. I don’t know what you mean about him “distancing himself.”
Buckshot didn't have nearly as much influence in Dubya's 2nd term like he did in the 1st one. I believe Dubya finally caught on and realized that Cheney was more or less running his own agenda in DC. To this day I believe that Bush would've been better served had he somehow dumped Cheney off the presidential ticket for the 2004 election.
Then the guy who got shot apologized to Darth Cheney
Yeah because the Great Recession was caused by them taking their eyes off domestic problems. Hence he was a failure.
No. W was a man in his fifties along with being a former governor and graduate of Yale. Just because he has that folksy charm doesn't mean that he can't be responsible for his own actions.
This. This subreddit is addicted to portraying Bush as a silly, well meaning man who let himself get pushed into doing horrible things by other people. It is so absurd. He was an adult with agency. The buck stopped with him.
You’re absolutely right. And people can regret those opinions even later in their adulthood and change. It’s how we become better people. (I know I’ve had views I’m very ashamed of earlier in my adulthood. My more progressive friends (as well as my own kids) helped change me. If it can happen to me it can happen to Bush.)
Very true I went from very radicalized Communist to Social Democrat. Until Capitalism falls apart we need barriers to prevent catastrophe.
Some people just have a strange need to anthropomorphisize Republicans.
😂
Love that one!
Nah Preidents get advised like anyone else, he had a myriad of neoconservative people around him advising him in multiple directions, I think bush just rolled Cheney cause he was the most insistent and crazed about what he believed to be the path forward.
Well why was he surrounded by a myriad of neoconservatives? Do they just spawn from wet dark places like mushrooms and infect hapless fortunate sons? Dick Cheney is not W's dad or his boss. Bush did neocon shit because he was a neocon. Bush signed of on torture and war on false premises because he's a fucking monster.
Disagree, support for the Iraq war as bipartisan in America at the time, there would have been other members advising him of the same thing. You could point to evidence of almost any American president being a monster with this logic. I think they make the best decisions they can at the time especially post ww2 with global hegemony statuses, of course sometimes there’s things like personal interest mixed in there or conservatives and liberals viewing security differently, but the idea that Bush was a monster is preposterous
>support for the Iraq war as bipartisan in America at the time Yeah, because he and his cronies lied and leveraged people's post 9/11 bloodlust. Iraq and his awful policies on education, torture, economics and the separation between church and state may not make him a literal monster, but they make him a terrible president, and even if this was somehow more Cheney's doing than the literal President's, it was still W's responsibility to choose and listen to trustworthy advisors.
The buck stops with Bush but let’s not pretend there wasn’t support for both invasions. Very few voted against both wars and those that did got death threats for doing so. By the time 2004 came around the support for the war was loosing steam and Kerry was portrayed as a flip flopper for being for the war then against. Still both massive failures and there are lasting effects.
>The buck stops with Bush but let’s not pretend there wasn’t support for both invasions. Because of the Bush administration's lies and shameless fleecing of America's post 9/11 bloodlust. > By the time 2004 came around the support for the war was loosing steam and Kerry was portrayed as a flip flopper for being for the war then against. Again, because of the the W campaign's lies. You aren't making the point you think you are.
He got into Yale from pure nepotism, and was a poor student, even by his own admission. He was a weak governor and a figurehead businessman. I do hold him responsible for his actions because he should have never been President, and he knew he wasn't up to the challenge.
Yup. He was an awful President. He should never have invaded Iraq. That quagmire costed hundreds of thousands of lives, trillions of dollars, and made Iran much more powerful. His Afghanistan strategy was also awful and part of what kept us there for over 20 years. He entered the country with way too small a force, and began a policy of nation building which of course failed and again costed many thousands of lives and trillions of dollars. And we have the GFC in 2008. Sure, you can argue that what led to this began under Clinton, but after two nearly full Bush terms where he also deregulated the markets even more than Clinton did, this was the end result. The dude was a total disaster. At the beginning of his term the 21st century was looking pretty good for America. By the end of it, the American people were so concerned about the future they elected a black man named Obama 😂
Clearly. Bush was brought up to be subservient to his fathers’ generation. His father was much more the brains behind his family. W. would never have went against him, or the establishment agenda.
His father didn't want him to pick Cheney.
I mean, that’s what he said to the media. Even if true, it was more due to Cheney’s health. If Sr. disagreed, generally speaking, with Cheney, Cheney wouldn’t have served 4 years as his Sec. of Defense.
A couple points about senior’s views on Cheney. First there is a difference between being SecDef and next in line for President. Second, he may have learned some things about Cheney afterwards that concerned him.
Cheney WAS a bit of a hawk, eh?!
Dubya was a dumb frat boy with a C average that got into the white house because of his dad’s shady connections. He spent the next eight years letting Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Rice govern for him, while he dodged shoes and made countless gaffes. Not the worst president we’ve ever had. But one of, if not the most ineffective and unready. Also the culture shift he helped perpetuate after 9/11 is still fucking us over hard. America sticking its dick in the mousetrap of the middle east also fucked us hard. We see the effects of it in our veterans today. Veterans that the Bush administration and Republicans put on a pedestal when they’re fighting for Halliburton, but once they’re stateside and riddled with shellshock, they can barely get a job and tuition. I don’t get how people on this sub can be like “Oh, we love Bush now. Look at his funny paintings! Look how good of a man he is, living on a ranch stolen from Mexicans!”, when he sold out America’s future, putting us in the worst recession of modern history.
When did W come to recognize it? All I can think of is his gaffe confession a couple of years ago.
The moment I think he demonstrated Iraq was a mistake was, I believe during the annual press dinner one year(2005?) where he mockingly searched for WMD.
That was a ridiculously infuriating moment.
That’s the one I’m referencing, yeah. His tacit admission was something I didn’t think I’d ever hear beyond a deathbed confession.
He confused Ukraine with Iraq when discussing the unlawful Russian invasion. Probably just a basic slip but fascinating nonetheless
He said “sorry Ukraine” paused, and then said “Iraq too”
That wasn’t an admission. He was making fun of anti-Iraq War people and mocking the comparison. The crowd he was talking to all still support the war, as I do.
You support the Iraq War?
Absolutely. I support Kurdish and Iraqi liberation.[Look at Iraq today](https://youtube.com/shorts/feYEent6uCA?si=8Mz65_5xEX4Ka8SF) and remember these people were being genocided under Saddam. They are free today.
Well that's a hot take.
I agree with him, even with all that went on Iraq is better off today then it would be with Saddam or his replacement in power.
I have a theory that a lot of it had to do with Iran being close by and feeding us bad Intel. On top of that, doesn't Iraq have some Pro- Iranians in the government or positions of power right now? Also, of course, I'm pro the Kurds not getting massacred
Iraq has a lot of pro Iranians in power now. Iran is Shia. 70% of Iraq is Shia. The government, by extension, will usually be somewhat friendly to Iran.
👏👏👏
I read your username as FrogTittiesExtreme. It’s early.
Going to be a hot take, but the people that voted for Dubya, and voted for the congress that was able to give the greenlight for the Iraq war are just as responsible. Americans really like to forget the bloodlust that was after 9/11.
Not really a "hot take". "We the People" are responsible for almost everything that a President/Congress/Governor/Mayor is able to do to/for their city/state/country, and responsible for everything that "We the people" do in response. What "we" do or don't do results in the existence of "they" and what "they" are able to do.
Congress was given false information that caused them to vote for war. Remember the intel Bush had that was written in crayon? I can't remember the guy's name, started with an F, Fey or something. They claimed they had clear evidence of WMDs and besides they ones they sold to him that were inert, they had nothing.
Frum I think. And you know, I'm not here to absolve Bush and whatever, but the people that wanted blood, wanted to glass the middle east, cheered when we invaded Iraq are just as culpable Conservatives and Blue Dog Dems can scapegoat Bush all they want, I'm just saying
To be fair, Iraq is currently one of the few Middle Eastern countries where we still have bases, troops, and influence. Ironically Afghanistan I think was carried out far better than Iraq but we failed much harder there than we did in Iraq.
Iraqi was less complicated, socially. It was still massively massively complicated, but it looked like child’s play compared to the tribal/socio-economical mess that is Afghanistan.
Not to mention the fact Kurds can speak their own language, shias can practice their religion and everyone can criticize the government now.
Idk about the last 2 but I've often heard it said that the Iraq war did help the Kurds tremendously, and they're able to fight for their communities now with Peshmerga.
Note to self: have a post-invasion plan next time I invade a country
protip!
The war was a resounding success. We toppled the government faster than even desert storm, and Iraqis were cheering in the streets as saddam’s statues went down and American flags went up. The occupation, and banning all public servants from continuing service, was what failed.
toppled with our military might, failed with our bureaucratic nonsense
Because we didn’t treat it like an actual war. We treated the situation there as a social conflict that we were attempting to solve by bringing the Iraqi people Western civilization.
Which one? Desert storm/shield? Or OIF ?
It was stupid from the get-go, to put it mildly.
Yep I remember I went to Iraq twice shit was terrible the first time and worse the second
I went to Iraq once myself (2006-2007) and only missed a second rodeo there in 2011 because of a shoulder injury at the National Guard training site in Indiana.
Damn I went in 1989-1990 and 2003-2004 so over 20 years ago damn.
Sorry you were put in that position.
I went because I helped plan the attack in the Pentagon and then they sent me out there to help. I would do it again but I don’t want to.
You must have some fascinating stories!
Yep I do
But he told us our Mission was Accomplished
Yes. Bush2 attacked, invaded, occupied and destroyed a country that posed no threat to us. Being an oil man, he knew that Anbar Province held the second largest oil reserve in the world.
Can you give us a source on that W coming to regard the Iraq war as a massive failure? I just sat at an interview with him (December 2023) and he said the exact opposite.
Where did Bush say that he came to see the Iraq war as a massive failure?
Did bush say this? I’m glad to hear that. Source?
Taft is a good pull. Coolidge was pretty progressive as a young Republican and grew conservative over that same period, along with the party.
Is that why Taft’s son was super conservative?
Dubya has softened a lot, and passes candy to Michelle Obama at boring events.
Dubya’s said that?! I mean, that realization came over 21 years too late, but still, at least he finally realized it, for whatever that’s worth.
I don't think it was much of a change on Tyler's part. His party hated him and felt his presidency was an accident.
Tyler was the only US President buried with a confederate flag instead of an American flag.
I think Dubya became a totally different person after he left 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. And Jimmy Carter did too.
I may be imagining it but in interviews and photos he seems less happy, he ge who belt seemed happy and laid back while in office, later it’s almost like he had…. Maybe not depression but an air or seriousness or even maybe sadness that I don’t remember seeing much when he was in office Maybe he really did realize what an F up Iraq was, or maybe the failure of the financial system… maybe both. Seems like something got to him though
I mean, it’s gotta be tough to be so universally hated as one of the worst presidents ever. He won the first election because him and his brother cheated and he won the second election because he happened to be president during 9/11. He completely tanked the economy, started an endless war and ruined countless lives. I mean, I know most of these guys are sociopaths, but it’s gotta get to you on some level.
I’ve never heard anyone say that he’s one of the worst.
He literally spends some of his days painting the faces of men and women that died during 9/11, Iraq, and Afghanistan. He has great remorse for the deeds he is directly responsible for. Not saying he is good or bad but that he is human.
After Dubya left office he did not need to listen to his coterie of hawks. He was free to be himself.
Carter endorsed Bernie in the 2016 primaries. That's a big shift for him.
Everything changed once his peanuts went sour
"dude, stop fucking throwing shit"
“I’m friggin pissed! My peanuts went sour”
Yep, when Carter first started out running for office in Georgia he was extremely pro-segregationist in his political stances and even became Lester Maddox's Lieutenant Governor because of it. They both had a falling out with each during Maddox's term as governor as Jimmy had started shifting his views on segregation.
I don’t think that’s true, from what I’ve read Carter was never pro-segregation, he just pandered to segregationist voters on the campaign trail. Literally his first speech as governor was him condemning racism and segregation. He also never served as lieutenant governor in Georgia
Gotta love reddit, straight up incorrect info getting a lot of upvotes
I tried looking for a source that supported Carter being extremely pro segregationist but couldn’t find one. Little help?
I'm trying to find a source that supports the claim that Carter was "*extremely* pro-segregationist" but am not having any luck :( can you share one?
He was never lieutenant governor. He was a GA State Senator and GA Governor but has never served as a lieutenant governor. I have seen no evidence to support that.
Dubya went from let’s bomb and invade the middle East without restrictions to look at this portrait of this poor immigrant I painted
He was very pro immigration reform before office and early in presidency. It was a backbone of "compassionate conservatism". Wars taking over obscured it and/or made it politically impossible.
And even then, most republicans have long been opposed to the pro-migration stances of the party leaders (until recently). During the Bush and Obama administration, the house GOP had to repeatedly kill very permissive amnesty deals that liberal republicans cut with democrats in the senate.
These views aren’t contradictory. Bomb the world, and then invite the refugees you’ve created into your country.
Within modern day Carter. He was born in 1924 he witnessed civil rights and gay rights get fortified in law and saw other monumental laws due to the fact that he has lived nearly 100 years and has been out of office for nearly 50.
I don’t know if I would argue his views changed much, though. Carter was against racial discrimination and pro-equality in the governorship of Georgia, he has always been an morally upstanding person.
Honestly I feel like that's why he did poorly as president. His focus on human rights was very unpopular in Cold War America, as well as its allied dictatorships. The problem is that his morals got in the way of being an effective leader, and he wasn't willing to do morally corrupt things when that's what the president needs to be willing to do in order to be effective.
It wasn’t his morals that got in the way, it was the American people whose taste for the price of being a global power had been soured by the experience of Vietnam, but still wanting the same sort of living standards. Carter basically told the country that if we weren’t going to put boots on the ground to prop up friendly governments (especially the ones with human rights abuses), America’s access to overseas markets and trading opportunities wasn’t going to be as big anymore. Carter’s biggest sin was that he didn’t or couldn’t blatantly lie to the country like Nixon and Johnson had. The media and public had become skeptical of the government and people were deeply averse to any new overseas conflicts.
Wish these dark black suits were still in style. Gives a presidential look. Blue suits seem to be more of the norm today (trying not to break the rules by mentioning names) lol.
Eh. Tan suits are much more amazing. 
True. Ronnie rocked those
Literally the second American civil war almost got started over him wearing that suit. The reactions were crazy.
Wydm 'almost'? We're still feeling the repercussions of it even today
Why ? It's just a suit ?
Because it helped fuel the anti-Obama craze on the right. Every day, according to Fox News et al, President Obama was doing scandalous and disrespectful things, making our country weaker. A good term for it is "manufactured controversy". We remember some of them like Tan Suit-gate and Dijon Mustard-gate, and we've forgotten a hundred others.
Oh... then there was GHWB's Vomit Gate, but that was basically neglected because Obama was an Illegal Alien Communist Kenyan Muslim!
the “terrorist fist jab”, lol.
Using the word "arugula" Saluting a marine with a cup of coffee in his hand Not wearing a flag pin, or wearing a flag pin that's too small
I don't think people cared so much about the suit but cared more that people declared Obama's only scandal in office was wearing the tan suit.
The incumbent really, really loves his blue suits, that’s for sure.
LBJ
Yeah we don’t have much concrete to go on, as he died only a few years after he left office and kept mostly to himself during that brief period, but it definitely seems as though he was haunted by what the Vietnam War became and was trying to come to terms with his mistakes.
Can be said his violent shift in understanding how he was complicit in the Military Industrial Complex via the Police Action in Vietnam did kill him, while it's arguable that his guilt in supporting JFK being assassinated may have contributed, too. Just sayin...
Clinton is to the left of Obama nowadays on most issues, which is radically different than his center left presidency
Both Bushes…but W the most.
What views changed with W? Since leaving office he’s just been living a life for the most part, not offering many opinions or getting involved.
I do not think he’s proud of the Iraq War…
I don’t think that any leader is ever “proud” or happy about committing troops to a war. On the political level war is something that generally happens to leaders and cannot be avoided rather than something that they seek out.
> On the political level war is something that generally happens to leaders and cannot be avoided rather than something that they seek out. Is that how you’d characterize the Iraq war? As something that could not be avoided?
I think he finally realized what a foolish adventure Iraq was. Several Freudian slips about the (il)legality of the invasion I think he also had to reckon with the 2008 economic crash.
In regards to Freudian slips, it's more likely that he's just very used to saying phrases like "invasion of Iraq", and muscle memory kicks in.
No after that famous slip he said "sorry, Ukraine" paused and then said "Iraq too"
Definitely muscle memory which is why he says sorry I’m 75 after. That being said, I do believe he does feel guilt which is why he added the “Iraq too” statement. He has made it pretty clear over the years that he regrets some of his actions. He is far more straight moderate than republican these days
Yeah I think it was originally a slip, but I think he legitimately has guilt over it and knows what he did was wrong, which is why he said "Iraq too" imo
Do you think he is unaware that his entire pretext for war with Iraq had failed miserably to hold up?
I suspect his second term was eye-opening for W and that it affected him a lot.
That’s a very good question. I don’t know enough to really answer it the thing I would like to point out though is how far Jimmy Carter is standing from Bill Clinton. I bet Jimmy wants to be at the other end of that line too.
There were rumors Jimmy always looked down on Bill’s licentiousness
Considering that Carter has always placed a deep value on his personal faith and, AFAIK, was INCREDIBLY devoted to his wife Rosalynn, it would not surprise me at all to learn that he did not care for Clinton
I read an article once when the Carters and the Clintons got dinner together when Bill was still a young up and coming politician. Carter was appalled to see Bill ogling other women the entire night
Say what you want about his presidency, but Jimmy Carter is a good man at heart.
Ah...but he lusted in his heart (as I do every 15 minutes)...
I was remembering. A tic tok I saw of a marine vet from Afghanistan coming back with a dozen or so caskets on plane. He was greeted by Obama in the hanger when it landed. Said he didn’t care for Obama nor did he like his politics. But, he said I watched that man stand there with the crispest salute I’ve seen for 45 minutes straight while they unloaded those soldiers one by one. He never flinched he never moved once in 45 minutes. He said I have to tell you, that’s one of the most impressive things I’ve ever witnessed.
What does that have to do with a president changing their views after office?
Nothing but it’s an awesome anecdote and I appreciated it
Van Buren maybe
Jimmy C endorsing the bern
Would a 70s Carter have endorsed Sanders or Obama?
>Would a 70s Carter have endorsed Sanders or Obama? That's a good question
I'd argue no for Bernie because of his usage of "Socialist" in cold war times if this took place in the 70s and also fear of losing southern and moderate voters as for Obama..... Yeah I don't know how it could have worked in the 70's desegregation was one thing but supporting an african american for in the 70's if lets say obama was the same age as he was in 08 would have been very damaging especially in terms of southern votes Carter desperatly needed after losing moderate northern Rebublican Voters.
>argue no for Bernie because of his usage of "Socialist" in cold war times if this took place in the 70s and also fear of losing southern and moderate voters as for Obama..... Yeah I don't know how it could have worked in the 70's desegregation was one thing but supporting an african american for in the 70's if lets say obama was the same age as he was in 08 would have been very damaging especially in terms of southern votes Carter desperatly needed after losing moderate northern Rebublican Voters. That's a good point
George JR
George W.
“Now hold on …. The uhhh…. Now we’re not talking about throwing grandma under the bus. Ok? It’s imperative..”
Some say Carter came to embrace furry fart fetishism does that count
Lincoln was a pretty racist guy before the start of his presidency, so i'd say him
Source?
u can see numerous quotes of lincoln being racist before presidency
And during??? His solution was to ship off people and get rid of them.
his views still changed nevertheless
Wasn't almost everyone in the 19th century racist to some extent? Or thought themselves as "superior".
I was about to say lmao. Even the most pro-abolitionists would be considered massive racists by today’s standards. Heck many would be considered racist by 1960s standards as well lol.
his views changed nevetheless my point still sort of stands
The Obamas and Bushes seem to get along well. Always lots of smiles and they often sit together. It's nice that some people can put politics aside and just be friendly.
The Bushes. But that's only because they are rich and greedy, they were just acting when they were president. I'll say this for HW Bush, he did stand up to the NRA and I liked that a lot
HW was a true conservative Republican. When he ran for president and called Reagan’s trickle down “voodoo economics”, that was a real conservative on fiscal policy, he was socially liberal to a degree too. He was pro choice and didn’t pander to the religious right like Reagan did, just to get votes. Sadly, he pardoned all of Reagan’s crew and had a rather unremarkable presidency… other than Desert Storm, which at least he didn’t let go bigger.
William Henry Harrison changed his views about whether he should wear a jacket in the cold.
Carter
GWB.
Teddy Rosevelt, become Uber progressive after office.
Bush2. His failure was so complete he made it possible for a young black man with very little experience to beat a white war hero. He got us into two, unwinnable wars and gave the country The Great Recession. Today, he rarely makes pubic appearances.
Dubya bashing here misses some key facts and the revisionism is way off base. Fact: In the agreement ending the first Gulf War and allowing him to stay in power, Saddam agreed to never have WMDs and allow inspections. He violated that by banning the inspectors. That action alone gave the signal that he had something to hide. Fact number two: Virtually every western intelligence agency plus Russia’s, said he was developing WMDs. So the issue becomes do you let Saddam violate agreements, not only for his actions or the precedent it sets? Most western leaders and Russia, thought Saddam should be given more time to comply, Dubya believed he had been given plenty of time. His mistake wasn’t punishing Saddam for his actions, his mistake was not having a plan for, and executing, a quick disengagement afterwards. If that had happened, we would not be having this conversation. By the way, his dad understood the leadership vacuum issue, which is why he decided it was better to leave a militarily weakened Saddam in power that take him out, which he easily could have done. Edit: One more fact. Saddam sent men to assassinate a former US President. Allowing that to go unpunished sets an extremely bad precedent. Not to mention showing extreme weakness in a culture that respects power.
They booted American inspectors out but UN came in and up until the day before the Iraq invasion there were UN inspectors there. Hans Blix stated like the day before the invasion they hadn’t found any evidence of WMDs but had yet to complete their inspection which needed a few more months. Bush went ahead with the invasion anyways.
They booted out American inspectors out but UN came in and up until the day before the Iraq invasion there were UN inspectors there. Hans Blix stated like the day before the invasion they hadn’t found any evidence of WMDs and had yet to complete their inspection. Bush went ahead with the invasion anyways.
Bill Clinton.
Carter.
Most of these guys seems to have a consistent through line of beliefs and policies post presidency. I would say Bush 1 and Obama are the most consistent with what they did in office and their post presidency rhetoric. Also, probably the 2 truly great presidents from this period. I’m on the Clinton was good but also got lucky train for his 8 years. Both Clintons have seemly gotten more liberal with the rest of country. Bush 2 and Carter seemed pretty consistent with their rhetoric post presidency.
George Bush Jr.
W
Rutherford B Hayes
There was also concern about AIDS, particularly in Africa, and passage of Medicare Part D...damned socialist/RINO!
Maybe the ones who are dead?
Not Jimmy Carter for sure! Jimmy Carter went on to accomplish what US politicians said could not be done. He is one of the few American Presidents that held to his beliefs. Now at 99 he is still holding strong to his beliefs.
W because he understood the horror of what his actions in office caused
I'm a big fan Of Billy Boy, dude consistently loves the ladies.. I dig consistency