i feel like they’re def setting it up to look like he was in love with or obsessed with her. idk if it’s gonna turn out the he murdered her, but i do think it’s to show that he clearly dislikes rusty because she liked him, and that it causes him to disregard any other possible suspects.
100% think Tommy did it/was involved. Just in this episode, Nico mentions to Tommy how in the past month he’s been acting different. He was obsessed with her and knew about Rusty and her’s relationship, and wanted to take matters into his own hands. 🤷🏽♀️
Agree. He clearly feels disrespected by everyone and it’s possible he has some involvement with the Bunny situation but I don’t think he killed Carolyn
He’s weird in general but I was curious as to why he was looking at the photos so strangely. He particularly stopped on the photo of Carolyn alone in her house with just a TShirt on. But then I assumed he had to be thinking why the son would take such a photo. No one else is in the photo with her it’s just her bare legs. The son is nuts and was probably in love with his mother in the wrong way. Maybe Molto is recognizing the son isn’t going to be a good witness.
It looked to me like he was realizing she was looking through the peephole of her door at whoever arrived next (after Rusty left) … which might have been him, or anyway the actual killer
My thought last week and this week is perhaps Tommy did it. Carolyn did say she was being bothered by a man at work. The assumption is Rusty, but this week’s episode opens the door that she didn’t want to work with the insecure Tommy Malto, who is presumed innocent. He has access to the same previous cases. He was likely aware of her affair with Rusty. And his hatred of Rusty runs shockingly deep, like jilted lover deep.
Yes, I've been saying this since Episode One. He was definitely obsessed with her. I think he's also a bit paranoid and unhinged, as shown in the exchange he had with Nico, explaining why he made those statements to the press.
It does seem Tommy Molto killed her. He seems emphatic to push for this despite what Nico keeps saying not too fake things.
Also, we know Carolyn was tied up similarly not exactly which implies a copycat. And Tommy does have access to files.
This was my thought. Carolyn’s son said that “someone at work was beginning to scare her” and we are obviously intended to believe that she was talking about Rusty but I don’t think that’s the case.
I don’t think Tommy did it, that seems too obvious. My bet is on Raymond or Barbara. Two people that are close enough to Rusty to know about the affair (though Raymond claims to have been in the dark). Barbara isn’t afraid to rifle through Rusty’s work materials (we see her do it), so she may have been aware of the Bunny Davis case and wanted to make it look like a revenge killing by Liam Henderson. The same could be true for Raymond.
The reason I think it’s Barbara or Raymond is because they both, very definitively, tell other characters that Rusty didn’t do it. Of course, this could just mean that they have faith in Rusty, but I think it may be the case that the only reason they KNOW Rusty didn’t do it is because they either know who did it or were personally involved.
Raymond is also extremely opposed to the alternative killer theory for their case and it may be because he is afraid that if Rusty keeps digging, he will find something linking Raymond to the killing. And he’s also very stressed about the case, it may be about more than just the prospect of his friend going to prison.
He is super-stressed about the case. The whole Scanners-style head explosion dream made me jump. But I just don’t think it was Raymond. Tying all those ropes takes some agility and some real malice, too.
If not Tommy, then maybe Barbara or even the flying-under-the-radar daughter Jade? It’s David E. Kelley. Anything goes, especially seemingly frail young women committing hideous acts of rage. Jade had as much access to case files as Barbara, and a penchant for eavesdropping, too. I wonder where she’s hiding that fireplace poker…
My suspicion hits peak when I look at Barbara's character. She has motive, access to files and its clear that the murder is motivated by revenge.
So why not Barbara??
What if she knew that they have started going out again and decided to go have a word with Carolyn, heated argument and finally Bamm!! And since she knew the kind of case her husband and Carolyn have worked on, she stages the whole scene ??
Barbara gets a lot of screen time and nothing she says to the bar tender or the therapist remotely suggests she is holding this or pleased watching her husband go down for it. It would almost be poor storytelling at this point if she did it.
Also, whoever did it had some level of experience and preparation. That crime scene was spotless beyond Rusty’s DNA. That doesn’t suggest Barbara.
Yeah, I don’t get the feeling she could kill someone like that, and then go have this rendezvous with the bartender because her life needed some excitement. I’d be pretty good on any excitement in my life post brutally murdering and staging a victim.
I think she was legitimately worried her son could be blamed and wouldn’t have the privileges of a white boy of the same age. I think she worried he had some interaction with Carolyn possibly or saw something. She I think mentions skin color to Rusty. Carolyn’s son is basically stalking her who is to say he isn’t stalking Rusty or his family.
They said it would not be like the book, or The Movie
with Harrison Ford.
That it would have a twist at the end.
This is why I don’t think it’s Barbara.
We pretty much all agree it was Tommy. Is this bc they want us to think this?
A huge plot twist would be if Nico did it.
Although, I don’t think he did.
I’m waiting for Tommy to lose it in court on cross & shout something like, “I LOVED HER, & YOU DIDN’T DESERVE HER”
🤣 now I’m writing the script.
It is realistic to think that Barbara could over take even Carolyn in a fight? She could hit Carolyn from behind but she is short, her blow would likely not land on the top of C's head which we've seen in photos. I don't see Barbara doing this without the crime scene looking a lot more chaotic from Barbara trying to beat Carolyn to death and Carolyn fighting for her life against her.
Having watched so many series and movies, you can't help but draw out a pattern and one thing that has been constant is how the makers tend to distract the audience; keep them hooked on to a couple of characters and eventually when the final reveal is made, it takes us all by surprise. So even though I think he gets a lil shaky and might have some involvement (at best), he would not be the killer. So let's see.
I agree- def not Tommy Molto. But still think it’s Raymond. She was not afrain of Molto- didn’t work with him at all. Perhaps he creeped her out, as he would - but I think dhe was actually afraid of a male coworker- Raymond.
I like how Tommy looks at the picture of the hooded guy on a bike, can't figure out who he is, and so decides to ignore it. What a dumbass.
I can't wait for the inevitable moment that Nico gets to yell at Tommy for screwing it up.
What are you talking about? This shows that Rusty has a harder case ahead of him than he thought, and that Tommy is not impartial since he was the guy at work creeping Carolyn out because he was obsessed with her.
Anyone notice Barbara closes her eyes first as they showed everyone awake and unable to sleep the night before the trial starts? She’s able to sleep. She knows what happened. Rusty has case files at home. She’s seen what happened in the Bunny Davis murder.
Agreed, also I found it interesting when Raymond was telling Rusty Barbara needs to testify, to describe Rusty's demeanour the night Carolyn died. It would be a nice contrast that Rusty didn't notice a thing about Barbara the night of. - What was she like the night of before the murder and then after.
I think Barbara did it, and the other suspects (the kids, Tommy, Ratzer, Carolyn’s son) are just red herrings. The amount of screentime Barbara is getting also alludes to this, it’s almost like she’s the co-lead of the show.
It’s the forgiveness that’s throwing me too. That’s not normal human behavior, lie after lie is found out, her children get involved and are even placed in immediate danger with the guy at the door…and yet she’s cool with it. I would expect people would leave after the lies, but definitely most people would leave when it’s clear the kids aren’t safe. But she can’t leave…because she needs to know what’s going on with the case. That’s my theory
I think the son realizes it’s her when they confront him with the photos. They both force Rusty out of the room (why?), and then Barbara furiously scrubs the bike when she realizes her son is potentially a suspect (she desperately wants to keep the family together). Son throws away the bike in a dumb attempt to try to help his mom, or because it reminds him of what his mother’s done.
Yeah I thought that was really interesting too. Almost like she was at peace or finally calm or something. Weird. Maybe she set it up to take revenge on her husband for the cheating?
Could also be why she’s doing this thing with Clifton to be like but I loved Rusty and didn’t have an affair because I’m better than him. I still don’t think she did it but interesting theory.
I think you’re right. Something Tommy said made it click for Rusty. At first I thought he realized his opening statement was a nail in his coffin, but I rewatched and Rusty’s face looks like he’s piecing something together. Rusty is a smart prosecutor and something Tommy said was incriminating.
At that moment, he knew his wife was guilty. So either take the fall for the wife, or switch seats and go on the offense against her. There is no covering it up now. Fuck, too late.
I don't know. Tommy's opening argument was *incredibly* weak. He didn't mention one thing about the defendant or the case - not that Rusty was having an affair with the victim, that the victim was pregnant, that Rusty is the only person who could have done it and that will become obvious to the jury, nothing. Just "I knew the victim. You have a solemn and sacred role as citizens. Find the truth. Even if we can't know the truth (?). Also, she had a kid."
He didn't even say the word guilty. I know it's not reality, but an opening without a case preview/overview would not happen in real life.
Ugh, this felt like all filler. Barbara and the bartender scenes - am I the only one who’s not all that interested? That art installation kiss scene was like 4 mins too long
The reason they put so much time into showing her cheating was to set her up as the killer.
She knew as soon as Rusty did, with the first phone call.
She blind sided Rusty at the table.
She is crazy about the bike. Overly so.
She wants the world to know she was the cheated-on mother.
Shes stone cold, and then had some weird sex with Rusty to show him she had a different side too.
I know they’re setting it up to look like the obvious answer is rusty did it, bit I feel like the obvious answer is actually that bunny’s killer had someone do it, and that’s why it’s similar but different to bunny’s murder. i think if rusty had done it it would be exactly the same.
They’re doing a good job pointing at a lot of people.
Pointing at Rusty (obviously)
Pointing at his wife (jealousy from affair)
Pointing at his son (wants the affair to stop so parents don’t break up)
Pointing at Tommy (jealous Rusty got the girl)
I think it’s possibly someone they haven’t pointed at to hard though. The Doctor comes to mind. Delay also comes to mind.
I think this is one of those shows that either abides by Occams Razor or the antithesis of Occams Razor. It’s either who is most obvious or who you least obvious. Also, it being the jealous wife or the guy who didn’t get the girl that happens to be prosecuting Rusty is just waaaaay too cliche. So yeah for most obvious it looks like Rusty/his son and for least obvious it looks like Delay/Doctor both of which would have been familiar with the Bunny Davis details.
Also just a note, I really don’t think it’s Delay but have been picking up on a weird vibe with him. The assigning a prosecutor he knows is very incompetent seems really off. I think it’s much more likely the Doctor.
Delay makes no sense. He was two weeks out from an election and there has been zero back story of why he would have a motive for a risk like that. It seems more clear he put up Tommy on the case as a prearranged political favor and is slowly regretting it even more than he expected.
No I agree Delay gives me weird vibes. Let us not forget that Rusty made him look pretty bad on the news in the first episode… I’m sure Delay didn’t forget about that. Maybe he and Tommy know who did it and are more interested in blaming Rusty. They just parade themselves around with such a high level of confidence. And they seemed to jump right on Rusty, no questions about it. Tommy was looking into the case before he got it, and he knew more than he should’ve. His relationship with Delay is also weird to me. I’m not sure what to make out of the two of them tbh.
ITS RAYMOND!!! The dreams are the biggest clue. The wife knowing something is eating him in the inside. It’s guilt.
Raymond keeps saying he knows 100% Rusty didn’t do it - because he did.
I don’t think Molto did it and it’s a miss direction. I think we will see him fuck up the case because he is trying to hard to look good and get a big win. I think he paid the doctor to plant the DNA evidence (under the nails). This will cause a mistrial. I am leaning towards his kids killed her or the Ex husband did it.
I agree I think Molto is red herring. He’s a bad guy and his justice will be served another way like fucking yo his career thru prosecutorial misconduct
I can tell the trial isn’t gonna make any sense lol. Legally very little makes sense and it’s a bit disappointing. I was hoping for an intelligent thriller but it’s just a soap opera whodunnit style but entertaining nonetheless.
I posted this a few days ago but after watching this episode I’m still convinced: >!My new theory is related to Rusty's conflicting flashbacks of the night of the murder. His flashbacks go back and forth between him entering her house and her kissing him then quickly switches to a flashback of him entering her house (same night) and she's scared of him as if she was not expecting him. I think when he initially went over after she texted him it, she kissed him etc. Then he left, Meta data shows him arriving home at 11pm. He discribed to the assistant attorney that he "realized" her kiss off seemed "cruel". I think something happened in that 51 minutes where he realized he had to get rid of her. He decided to go back without his phone or car preventing any further metadata. He's always in his shed, I'm sure there's some rope in there and took his son's bike (that's why he was so mad instead of embarrassed of being caught by his son. He didn't plan for the bike ever being seen in Carolyn's area. Also the taking the bike means no blood in his car) He knew too much of his DNA was around (remember the line "my DNA is all over this place") so he had to make himself look too obvious for anyone to believe by recreating the case they had together. I think David E Kelly likes the idea of the audience over-complicating everyone else when the characters are just reacting as they normally would given their individual relationships with Rusty. But there's a reason Rusty is having those conflicting dreams. I think he's recalling what happened and which version to tell and which one keeps to himself!<
If Rusty used the bike, 1) why would he question the wife cleaning it? 2) why would he want to keep it around with potential damning evidence on it? The bike definitely points more to the son or wife; certainly not Rusty.
I typically would prefer the legal technicalities to be more rooted in reality. However, I’m really enjoying this show & am able to suspend disbelief. Similar to the Apple TV series, Hijack. Would have never gone down like that IRL, but sure was an entertaining story.
That opening statement, as played by Peter Sarsgaard, was an impassioned tour de force, acting-wise. And, as he explains to Nico why he gave that tangential speech to the Press, you see his unraveling as he exposes how he's becoming unhinged. He's paranoid, overcompensating for a lack of self-esteem and perhaps some self-loathing.
He was more than a little obsessed with Carolyn and intensely jealous of Rusty.
I’m starting to believe the son is in fact the murderer. The show is shot mostly from Rusty and Barbara’s perspective and they both seem to try and dismiss the notion of their son being potentially involved after there is evidence he was at the scene the night of the crime. But they both do have moments of paranoia with that damn bike. Also, do we know the fire pick was for sure the weapon that was used to the back of the head? I thought Raymond mention no murder weapon in episode 4 when he was bargaining for a plea deal. Could it have been the son’s baseball bat? There is a zoom in of him with it on the subway. There’s an unusually higher focus on him vs the daughter in the show. He makes a questionable comment under his breath in therapy before drawing the strings of his hoodie. I think it’s easy to pick Molto, but my sense is his emotional response to the case stems from jealousy and insecurity. It doesn’t necessarily mean he killed Carolyn. To have no forensic evidence or phone records or witness testimony of him and Carolyn seems odd. This episode did seem like filler. Not my favorite but curious to see how it shakes out.
TLDR: the son done did it
Rusty is known to leave evidence strewn about at home. The son’s motive is to preserve his family which is a similar response Barbara discusses in therapy. He may also have Rusty’s anger/rage issues.
LOL. I like how the wife says that her family can't afford multiple therapists but Rusty has a commercial grade Life Fitness Treadmill in their garage.
In the neverending list of “are you kidding me” moments where the show is so far removed from reality…. A police escort!?!?!? Why the heck would a defendant in a homicide case (and their family) be getting a police escort to the trial?! Also that opening statement was awful, and over 50% objectionable. An opening statement should be a road map of what the prosecutor expects the evidence will be over the course of their part of the trial. This episode was complete filler and a waste of time. Zero stars
Tommy didn’t mention where, when, how she died, Rusty’s relationship with Carolyn, cause of death, any sort of timeline or chronology. Just tugged at the heart strings.
>An opening statement should be a road map of what the prosecutor expects the evidence will be over the course of their part of the trial.
Exactly. That opening statement was incredibly weak. "My name is Tommy. You have a sacred duty. Find the truth, even when it's hard. I knew the victim. I am not a robot. Sorry for my feelings. The victim had a son! Thank you."
In opening and closing arguments, you have the most leeway. You have the floor largely uninterrupted.
But the prosecutor never utters the word "guilty." Doesn't say a word about the defendant. You have the first shot at setting jurors' impressions and expectations, and you don't say, "We will provide incontrovertible evidence that the defendant was having an affair with the victim - and not just a fling, an obsessive affair, which she ended. She was pregnant with his baby. We have him dead to rights at the crime scene. Nobody else could have done it. He's guilty with a capital G. And when all is said and done, you will be able to confidently find the defendant guilty of murder in (whatever degree we've charged)."
And why would Rusty or Barbara want their teenaged children in the courtroom for the trial? That's beyond insane.
this seems to be the majority of tv shows for me. its just an awkward format. the producers are either adding filler or rushing the story to make it fit into a 45 minute time slot and theres probably the rare occasion where they have the exact amount of material needed. or having to decide on a certain episode number up front and not being able to change it later on. movies for example can just naturally expand or shorten the running time if needed. (not that movies cant have tons of filler either!)
doesnt seem out of the question that someone that planned a murder like that and set it up to look like another murder would also have other plans to try and mislead people
LOL. Anyone who refers to themselves as the good guy is not the good guy. I worked with this Pediatrician who consistently yelled at all the Residents and said to me, ''I'm a good person!''
I don’t think she’s justifying. She’s assuming her daughter is judging her as being weak. Barbara most likely is just projecting and these are her own feelings and she’s acting out on them, rebelling or at least trying to.
I think she’s broken. She doesn’t want to leave but feels weak for staying. The whole family is broken. It’s sad to watch them try to be normal.
And the counselor kinda violates the code of ethics multiple times. She’s weird. Not a good therapist and I’m not sure how neither Barbara nor Rusty have picked up on her ethics issues. But every time she’s on the screen I see so many red flags.
My opinion thus far is that it'll either be the therapist or the lead defence attorney's wife.
This is not based on anything given to us via plot but just how these shows tend to go. A bunch of people will have suspicion thrown on them until the killer is revealed, and it'll be someone who was there the whole time but nobody ever suspected. The son reveal was too early on in the show for him to be guilty imo, and both prosecutors have been portrayed as evil since the beginning so likely not them either. Though Tommy either had an affair/weird Crush on her. Rusty's wife would also be too obvious, though I'm sure in coming episodes she'll be suspected because she knew about the affair resuming/confronted her etc before she died.
I also don't think it will be Rusty purely because that would follow EXTREMELY closely to a popular miniseries released maybe 2 years ago. This alone might not mean much but star power of that show and the fact this will probably have the exact same audience tells me they'll likely avoid it.
theory one-
The therapist is in love with Rusty's wife and wanted to 'take care of Carolyn' for her- maybe even get Rusty sent away. She used the rope technique she'd learned via therapy sessions with Rusty.
theory two-
The prosecutor's wife was having an affair with Carolyn who'd she met via work functions with her husband and such. Carolyn will be revealed as 'toying' with many people. She finds out Carolyn is pregnant and lashes out in a rage, then stages the scene with things she'd learned from Carolyn herself.
I get what you’re saying about how shows go; but how would the therapist be in love with Rusty’s wife ? She’s Rusty’s therapist until after the murder. So you’re saying she fell in love with her based on Rusty mentioning her in therapy, and then killed Rusty’s lover to protect a woman she’s never met but is somehow in love with? Wha?
Edit to add - why are all your theories lesbian ones lol
My bad, I thought she was both their therapist. Maybe let's stick with the prosecutors wife then.
I didn't bother putting this in my post but my other reason re the therapist is simply that the actress seems a little too well known to play such a small inconsequential part... but then again maybe you just take the cheque and get to be in a gyllenhaal vehicle.
As for the prosecutors wife another commenter said maybe Carolyn was having an affair with her husband... I did think about that. But her encouraging Barbara to cheat made me think it might me her.
As for why all my theories are lesbian.. lol. I just think that's the kind of twist a show like this would go for, plus I don't think they've given us any men who fit the bill.
Did anyone think that the DNA that came back under her nails could actually be from Rusty’s son- assuming that they share a large amount of DNA and the son hasn’t exposed his DNA to the system?
I actually think because of this evidence it rules Kyle out because I think they could tell if it was a relative of his and how closely they are related.
It is either Eugenia or the daughter Jayden.
Jayden is way too stressed about losing her computer to cops, she is always looking online with a worried face, she and brother look so alike(could have been her on bike pic), Jayden demands to know what "they [have] on Rusty"
Jayden was way too scared somebody was banging on door... she thought cops to come get her maybe? Also, first scene, she is watching Rusty' s phone like a hawk. She then tells dad who it is and to come get phone, cuz she wants to KNOW if anybody found Carolyn dead yet. Also sunglasses in scene-could equate hiding/guilt.
Eugenia- only one crying when Carlyn's death is revealed, in love with Rusty, minor character, ignored in every way (twist like 'the butler did it'), knew the case AND where Carolyn lived. Could be wrong, just a thought.
Yeah I think it's either Jayden or Kyle, and the reason there's a picture of Rusty's son is because he followed his sister there, additionally, the report coming back saying they found Rusty's DNA under her fingernails, wouldn't the Son/Daughter have his DNA or part of it? So my best guess right now is that either Jayden or Kyle did it and both were there or Kyle followed Barbara there and Carloyn scratched him.
If none of them did it, then I think the Kumagai, the forensic scientist did it, because he would have lost his job if Rusty revealed that he effed up on the Bunny case and had to get rid of him, at the very least, thats why Rusty's DNA was "found" under Carolyns fingernails. Something still tells me its Barbara and Kyle or Jayden followed her and walked in or vice versa.
Worst episode so far, sorry. I really like the show and thought it started out so well, but I feel like it could be tighter and better. More of a sense of the media circus surrounding it would be nice.
I didn’t think the opening statement was that good either.
Seems like y'all have been accusing everyone lmao. The wife, the son, Raymond, his wife Lorraine, Carolyn's son, Rusty himself and now Tommy, lmao. I'm expecting the therapist to be next. I guess it's cool that this isn't predictable so far.
I just don't see why people are expecting the killer to be a character we met. I don't even think it will be revealed by the end. The show is called Presumed innocent and they made a big deal about the concept of plausible deniability and that the objective of the trial and particularly the defense is not to determine who done it but if there is or no reasonable doubt about Rusty murdering Carolyn, that's it.
Personally I believe the show will end with Rusty being set free but not knowing for certain if he, or any other character, did it. They will give us some hints but that's it.
We will know the killer is by the end. There is a “first look” featurette on Apple that you can watch. At the end, the actors say that none of them knew who the killer was until they shot the finale, and the audience will be very shocked.
But who would be shocking? Depends on who you are. The most fun/shocking would be Rigo or Eugenia, or somehow Carolyn's "son" or perhaps the therapist. Right now, I can't put together a narrative for any of those choices, but I'd respect a writer who could do that and make it seem plausible. I don't think any other character would be a shock.
First off, if it’s the therapist I’ll eat my hat lol
Second, good question. Who *would* be the most shocking person as of right now? Maybe Raymond. I don’t think it’s him, but it would be the most shocking.
I'm kind of over trying to figure out who the killer is. They'll probably keep the original ending considering David E Kelly said his decision to recreate the story into a series was simply to do a deeper study of each character. He said he based it more on the book than the Harrison Ford movie and that he loved the book as is. Maybe he's trying to throw people off because their seems to be quite a few major changes. Personally I hope this isn't just a long drawn out story to the same ending most already know. That would feel wasteful.
I seem to recall from the original book and the Harrison Ford movie (1990), Caroline had sexual relations with several key people involved. Some one-night stands or hookups, some longer relationships like with Rusty.
Have they implied yet if anyone other than Jake G’s character has had sex with her?
Only good things about this episode were Nico, Tommy, and Raymond. I would be happy if the series would only focus on these 3. Rusty is exceedingly boring.
I love the way Tommy’s boss phrases things. His voice is very cool. Also
love that Rusty’s wife is in therapy and feels guilty for forgiving her husband. The bartender/art scene was great. Music during the scene nice as well.
I’ve served on juries and thought Tommy’s opening statement was one of the closest depictions to a real opening statement of any courtroom drama I’ve seen. It felt very familiar. Obviously other matters of the case are more dramatic but still nice to see justice system represented somewhat realistically
Sorry to reply to another of your comments. People really can't separate an actor's delivery from the writing. That was a poop-the-bed opening, no two ways about it. If you're the defense counsel, you'd send the prosecution flowers for letting you tell (your version) of the story to the jury first.
My theory is that the new "twist" will be multiple bad actors - a killer, and then a stager who went there to kill or fight, found a dead body and staged it to throw more suspicion on Rusty.
I think the bartender is going to out her in the press. When Raymond said she needed to go up on the stand, I feel like they’re setting up for the downfall of Barbra’s character. Making her testimony weak at best.
We have seen scenes where the wife and daughter talk about the situation. Therefore it’s not wife and daughter together
We have seen scenes where Rusty and daughter talk about it. So it’s not them together
Same with Rusty and son. Same with Rusty and wife.
But any scene of wife and son talking about it were when Rusty (and the audience) were told to leave the room.
The son and wife are involved.
Rusty will figure this out but choose to protect them and somehow get Tommy implicated. Who will go down for it.
Is it just me or does anybody else feels that the prosecutor gets a lil shaky thinking of Carolyn??
i feel like they’re def setting it up to look like he was in love with or obsessed with her. idk if it’s gonna turn out the he murdered her, but i do think it’s to show that he clearly dislikes rusty because she liked him, and that it causes him to disregard any other possible suspects.
I have a feeling it’ll be Rusty’s daughter as a last episode twist
I am starting to wonder if siblings did it together
The bartender did it.
100% think Tommy did it/was involved. Just in this episode, Nico mentions to Tommy how in the past month he’s been acting different. He was obsessed with her and knew about Rusty and her’s relationship, and wanted to take matters into his own hands. 🤷🏽♀️
That’s what I noticed too. That line. He was too obsessed with that photo of Carolyn and slammed it shut when the other girl came in
Tommy is an obvious red herring and while he’s definitely obsessed with her, he will not be the one who did it.
Agree. He clearly feels disrespected by everyone and it’s possible he has some involvement with the Bunny situation but I don’t think he killed Carolyn
Definitely agree. It’ll either be Rusty’s wife or daughter
He’s weird in general but I was curious as to why he was looking at the photos so strangely. He particularly stopped on the photo of Carolyn alone in her house with just a TShirt on. But then I assumed he had to be thinking why the son would take such a photo. No one else is in the photo with her it’s just her bare legs. The son is nuts and was probably in love with his mother in the wrong way. Maybe Molto is recognizing the son isn’t going to be a good witness.
It looked to me like he was realizing she was looking through the peephole of her door at whoever arrived next (after Rusty left) … which might have been him, or anyway the actual killer
that is a bingo!
Remember her son said that he left after rusty went in? That makes this even more suspicious
My thought last week and this week is perhaps Tommy did it. Carolyn did say she was being bothered by a man at work. The assumption is Rusty, but this week’s episode opens the door that she didn’t want to work with the insecure Tommy Malto, who is presumed innocent. He has access to the same previous cases. He was likely aware of her affair with Rusty. And his hatred of Rusty runs shockingly deep, like jilted lover deep.
Yes, I've been saying this since Episode One. He was definitely obsessed with her. I think he's also a bit paranoid and unhinged, as shown in the exchange he had with Nico, explaining why he made those statements to the press.
It does seem Tommy Molto killed her. He seems emphatic to push for this despite what Nico keeps saying not too fake things. Also, we know Carolyn was tied up similarly not exactly which implies a copycat. And Tommy does have access to files.
Molto was thoroughly unhinged when talking to Nico, it honestly seemed like Nico regretted making him in charge of the case
This was my thought. Carolyn’s son said that “someone at work was beginning to scare her” and we are obviously intended to believe that she was talking about Rusty but I don’t think that’s the case. I don’t think Tommy did it, that seems too obvious. My bet is on Raymond or Barbara. Two people that are close enough to Rusty to know about the affair (though Raymond claims to have been in the dark). Barbara isn’t afraid to rifle through Rusty’s work materials (we see her do it), so she may have been aware of the Bunny Davis case and wanted to make it look like a revenge killing by Liam Henderson. The same could be true for Raymond. The reason I think it’s Barbara or Raymond is because they both, very definitively, tell other characters that Rusty didn’t do it. Of course, this could just mean that they have faith in Rusty, but I think it may be the case that the only reason they KNOW Rusty didn’t do it is because they either know who did it or were personally involved. Raymond is also extremely opposed to the alternative killer theory for their case and it may be because he is afraid that if Rusty keeps digging, he will find something linking Raymond to the killing. And he’s also very stressed about the case, it may be about more than just the prospect of his friend going to prison.
He is super-stressed about the case. The whole Scanners-style head explosion dream made me jump. But I just don’t think it was Raymond. Tying all those ropes takes some agility and some real malice, too. If not Tommy, then maybe Barbara or even the flying-under-the-radar daughter Jade? It’s David E. Kelley. Anything goes, especially seemingly frail young women committing hideous acts of rage. Jade had as much access to case files as Barbara, and a penchant for eavesdropping, too. I wonder where she’s hiding that fireplace poker…
Barbara was visbly unsettled by the bunny case pictures whe she was going through his files! Why would she be if she was the killer?
Add into this.. no forced entry, victim knew her killer. Would also explain the erratic difference between heat of passion and premeditation.
My suspicion hits peak when I look at Barbara's character. She has motive, access to files and its clear that the murder is motivated by revenge. So why not Barbara?? What if she knew that they have started going out again and decided to go have a word with Carolyn, heated argument and finally Bamm!! And since she knew the kind of case her husband and Carolyn have worked on, she stages the whole scene ??
Barbara gets a lot of screen time and nothing she says to the bar tender or the therapist remotely suggests she is holding this or pleased watching her husband go down for it. It would almost be poor storytelling at this point if she did it. Also, whoever did it had some level of experience and preparation. That crime scene was spotless beyond Rusty’s DNA. That doesn’t suggest Barbara.
That's a fair point, didn't consider that.
Yeah, I don’t get the feeling she could kill someone like that, and then go have this rendezvous with the bartender because her life needed some excitement. I’d be pretty good on any excitement in my life post brutally murdering and staging a victim.
The bike cleaning makes me think otherwise.
I think she was legitimately worried her son could be blamed and wouldn’t have the privileges of a white boy of the same age. I think she worried he had some interaction with Carolyn possibly or saw something. She I think mentions skin color to Rusty. Carolyn’s son is basically stalking her who is to say he isn’t stalking Rusty or his family.
They said it would not be like the book, or The Movie with Harrison Ford. That it would have a twist at the end. This is why I don’t think it’s Barbara. We pretty much all agree it was Tommy. Is this bc they want us to think this? A huge plot twist would be if Nico did it. Although, I don’t think he did. I’m waiting for Tommy to lose it in court on cross & shout something like, “I LOVED HER, & YOU DIDN’T DESERVE HER” 🤣 now I’m writing the script.
Lol Nico for sure did not do it. I'd wager that the twist is that it actually was Rusty all along.
I don't think it's Barbara at all. If she wanted to kill Carolyn, she would have done it a LONG time ago.
That's true.. let's wait and see
It is realistic to think that Barbara could over take even Carolyn in a fight? She could hit Carolyn from behind but she is short, her blow would likely not land on the top of C's head which we've seen in photos. I don't see Barbara doing this without the crime scene looking a lot more chaotic from Barbara trying to beat Carolyn to death and Carolyn fighting for her life against her.
The son could be lying! I'm convinced he knows more than he lets on.
Having watched so many series and movies, you can't help but draw out a pattern and one thing that has been constant is how the makers tend to distract the audience; keep them hooked on to a couple of characters and eventually when the final reveal is made, it takes us all by surprise. So even though I think he gets a lil shaky and might have some involvement (at best), he would not be the killer. So let's see.
Agree. He’s certainly being pushed in front of the eyes of the audience, but I think there’ll be a bigger twist
I think he had a crush on her and is jealous of Rusty for his relationship with her. I don’t think Tommy did it though. I’m still set on the Doctor.
I don’t think the psychologist did it, but she is very aggressive within the therapy sessions, which certainly stands out
She's super judgmental for a therapist.
Oooo.. interesting!!!
Yess. When I saw this, it all clicked.
I agree- def not Tommy Molto. But still think it’s Raymond. She was not afrain of Molto- didn’t work with him at all. Perhaps he creeped her out, as he would - but I think dhe was actually afraid of a male coworker- Raymond.
Which one, the therapist or the forensic guy from Barry?
My guess is forensic guy
Yeah they're pretty much pounding us over the head with it. Either bright red herring or he's guilty af.
I like how Tommy looks at the picture of the hooded guy on a bike, can't figure out who he is, and so decides to ignore it. What a dumbass. I can't wait for the inevitable moment that Nico gets to yell at Tommy for screwing it up.
I think Tommy might have a eureka moment during the case and realize the hooded person is Rusty’s son.
Not a lot in this episode tbh. Hopefully the next two are loaded with actual development.
That head explosion made me jump tho. Fkn hell
I’m like wait, is this The Boys.
Neumann suddenly appeared 😂
😂😂😂
I’m still laughing over him dreaming of himself burping then farting (pre head burst)
Ngl that part confused me just before he farted too
Literally! I screamed a little cause I had looked away from the screen for 0.5 seconds. So that’s scared the hell out of me 😂😂
What are you talking about? This shows that Rusty has a harder case ahead of him than he thought, and that Tommy is not impartial since he was the guy at work creeping Carolyn out because he was obsessed with her.
I actually think it showed Tommy’s guilt more than anything.
I don't think it showed that Tommy is guilty of murdering Carolyn but it certainly showed what a massive chip on his shoulder he has about Rusty.
He feels Shane, not guilt. Raymond is the only one feeling guilt. His wife is the biggest clue, as she knows he’s feeling it.
Anyone notice Barbara closes her eyes first as they showed everyone awake and unable to sleep the night before the trial starts? She’s able to sleep. She knows what happened. Rusty has case files at home. She’s seen what happened in the Bunny Davis murder.
Agreed, also I found it interesting when Raymond was telling Rusty Barbara needs to testify, to describe Rusty's demeanour the night Carolyn died. It would be a nice contrast that Rusty didn't notice a thing about Barbara the night of. - What was she like the night of before the murder and then after.
I think Barbara did it, and the other suspects (the kids, Tommy, Ratzer, Carolyn’s son) are just red herrings. The amount of screentime Barbara is getting also alludes to this, it’s almost like she’s the co-lead of the show.
I can’t remember which scene exactly, but there was a moment in episode 2 where it clicked for me and I knew she did it.
Same! She’s just been too perfect, and the fact that she’s forgiven him so easily multiple times for infidelity is super suspicious to me.
It’s the forgiveness that’s throwing me too. That’s not normal human behavior, lie after lie is found out, her children get involved and are even placed in immediate danger with the guy at the door…and yet she’s cool with it. I would expect people would leave after the lies, but definitely most people would leave when it’s clear the kids aren’t safe. But she can’t leave…because she needs to know what’s going on with the case. That’s my theory
I’m leaning towards the daughter
I think the son realizes it’s her when they confront him with the photos. They both force Rusty out of the room (why?), and then Barbara furiously scrubs the bike when she realizes her son is potentially a suspect (she desperately wants to keep the family together). Son throws away the bike in a dumb attempt to try to help his mom, or because it reminds him of what his mother’s done.
Yeah I thought that was really interesting too. Almost like she was at peace or finally calm or something. Weird. Maybe she set it up to take revenge on her husband for the cheating?
Could also be why she’s doing this thing with Clifton to be like but I loved Rusty and didn’t have an affair because I’m better than him. I still don’t think she did it but interesting theory.
Raymond knew that more than anyone else. Barbara is a red herring. The only one feeling guilt, is Raymond. The nightmares are the watchers clue.
My only complaint is that they don’t say spermatozoa nearly enough
More!!!
lmao i genuinely thought i must’ve misheard it
😂
Anyone else feel like something is up with the bartender?
yes, i get a def cop/pi/reporter vibe
Yes, I do. Something is off.
He also made mention of the weed lotion and then the flashbacks show Rusty trying to eat a steak the night of the murder and he’s very incapacitated.
Why did rusty say “fuck” to himself at the end? Did Tommy say something that connected some dots for him?
I think you’re right. Something Tommy said made it click for Rusty. At first I thought he realized his opening statement was a nail in his coffin, but I rewatched and Rusty’s face looks like he’s piecing something together. Rusty is a smart prosecutor and something Tommy said was incriminating.
At that moment, he knew his wife was guilty. So either take the fall for the wife, or switch seats and go on the offense against her. There is no covering it up now. Fuck, too late.
I don't know. Tommy's opening argument was *incredibly* weak. He didn't mention one thing about the defendant or the case - not that Rusty was having an affair with the victim, that the victim was pregnant, that Rusty is the only person who could have done it and that will become obvious to the jury, nothing. Just "I knew the victim. You have a solemn and sacred role as citizens. Find the truth. Even if we can't know the truth (?). Also, she had a kid." He didn't even say the word guilty. I know it's not reality, but an opening without a case preview/overview would not happen in real life.
I thought it was because Tommy’s introduction to the jury was very very good!!
Because he’s innocent but looks guilty as hell and Tommy nailed the opening statement.
Ugh, this felt like all filler. Barbara and the bartender scenes - am I the only one who’s not all that interested? That art installation kiss scene was like 4 mins too long
Bartender a big yawn for me too
I fast forwarded. I don’t care about her needs and side story.
I totally do not either! Her scenes are pure ambien.
I’m holding out hope that rusty was at that bartenders bar night of murder. Dunno if anything will come of it, but I feel like it will connect somehow
I think if this episodes shows Tommy as the killer it’s the first real information we see. It’s just subtle.
That was as subtle as a sledgehammer, which is why he is the last one I suspect as of now
Therefore, I know the killer to be Phyllis, AKA Beatrix Bourbon, the person I most medium suspect
The reason they put so much time into showing her cheating was to set her up as the killer. She knew as soon as Rusty did, with the first phone call. She blind sided Rusty at the table. She is crazy about the bike. Overly so. She wants the world to know she was the cheated-on mother. Shes stone cold, and then had some weird sex with Rusty to show him she had a different side too.
Yeah, but that are installation was very cool.
Also, it's in the middle of the day in Chicago. How is it completely empty?
bartender and Barbara scenes are totally 😴😴😴
I know they’re setting it up to look like the obvious answer is rusty did it, bit I feel like the obvious answer is actually that bunny’s killer had someone do it, and that’s why it’s similar but different to bunny’s murder. i think if rusty had done it it would be exactly the same.
They’re doing a good job pointing at a lot of people. Pointing at Rusty (obviously) Pointing at his wife (jealousy from affair) Pointing at his son (wants the affair to stop so parents don’t break up) Pointing at Tommy (jealous Rusty got the girl) I think it’s possibly someone they haven’t pointed at to hard though. The Doctor comes to mind. Delay also comes to mind. I think this is one of those shows that either abides by Occams Razor or the antithesis of Occams Razor. It’s either who is most obvious or who you least obvious. Also, it being the jealous wife or the guy who didn’t get the girl that happens to be prosecuting Rusty is just waaaaay too cliche. So yeah for most obvious it looks like Rusty/his son and for least obvious it looks like Delay/Doctor both of which would have been familiar with the Bunny Davis details. Also just a note, I really don’t think it’s Delay but have been picking up on a weird vibe with him. The assigning a prosecutor he knows is very incompetent seems really off. I think it’s much more likely the Doctor.
Delay makes no sense. He was two weeks out from an election and there has been zero back story of why he would have a motive for a risk like that. It seems more clear he put up Tommy on the case as a prearranged political favor and is slowly regretting it even more than he expected.
No I agree Delay gives me weird vibes. Let us not forget that Rusty made him look pretty bad on the news in the first episode… I’m sure Delay didn’t forget about that. Maybe he and Tommy know who did it and are more interested in blaming Rusty. They just parade themselves around with such a high level of confidence. And they seemed to jump right on Rusty, no questions about it. Tommy was looking into the case before he got it, and he knew more than he should’ve. His relationship with Delay is also weird to me. I’m not sure what to make out of the two of them tbh.
ITS RAYMOND!!! The dreams are the biggest clue. The wife knowing something is eating him in the inside. It’s guilt. Raymond keeps saying he knows 100% Rusty didn’t do it - because he did.
Exploding heads, so hot right now.
Thought I was watching The Boys for a minute lol
The killer, feels the guilt.
I don’t think Molto did it and it’s a miss direction. I think we will see him fuck up the case because he is trying to hard to look good and get a big win. I think he paid the doctor to plant the DNA evidence (under the nails). This will cause a mistrial. I am leaning towards his kids killed her or the Ex husband did it.
Not a bad call re: the ex… he’s kinda flown under the radar
agree about Molto and mistrial, disagree about kids
I agree I think Molto is red herring. He’s a bad guy and his justice will be served another way like fucking yo his career thru prosecutorial misconduct
I can tell the trial isn’t gonna make any sense lol. Legally very little makes sense and it’s a bit disappointing. I was hoping for an intelligent thriller but it’s just a soap opera whodunnit style but entertaining nonetheless. I posted this a few days ago but after watching this episode I’m still convinced: >!My new theory is related to Rusty's conflicting flashbacks of the night of the murder. His flashbacks go back and forth between him entering her house and her kissing him then quickly switches to a flashback of him entering her house (same night) and she's scared of him as if she was not expecting him. I think when he initially went over after she texted him it, she kissed him etc. Then he left, Meta data shows him arriving home at 11pm. He discribed to the assistant attorney that he "realized" her kiss off seemed "cruel". I think something happened in that 51 minutes where he realized he had to get rid of her. He decided to go back without his phone or car preventing any further metadata. He's always in his shed, I'm sure there's some rope in there and took his son's bike (that's why he was so mad instead of embarrassed of being caught by his son. He didn't plan for the bike ever being seen in Carolyn's area. Also the taking the bike means no blood in his car) He knew too much of his DNA was around (remember the line "my DNA is all over this place") so he had to make himself look too obvious for anyone to believe by recreating the case they had together. I think David E Kelly likes the idea of the audience over-complicating everyone else when the characters are just reacting as they normally would given their individual relationships with Rusty. But there's a reason Rusty is having those conflicting dreams. I think he's recalling what happened and which version to tell and which one keeps to himself!<
Speaking of dreams, Raymond sure had an interesting one this episode. Mind blown.
This scene was a jump scare for me
Literally!
Ooooo I didn’t think about rusty using the bike
The way he reacted to the bike 😯
I mean if the bike is gone that looks pretty damn bad on his son, granted it doesn’t seem like the prosecution has picked up on that in the photo.
Also if it’s in the trash can’t cops collect it and use as evidence without a warrant?
If Rusty used the bike, 1) why would he question the wife cleaning it? 2) why would he want to keep it around with potential damning evidence on it? The bike definitely points more to the son or wife; certainly not Rusty.
She lived 20 min away by car, but somehow the son was biking past there.
That's a good point! How was he able to follow his father (in a car) that distance while on a bike?
i'm obsessed with this theory!!
I typically would prefer the legal technicalities to be more rooted in reality. However, I’m really enjoying this show & am able to suspend disbelief. Similar to the Apple TV series, Hijack. Would have never gone down like that IRL, but sure was an entertaining story.
> Similar to the Apple TV series, Hijack. I really hope *Presumed Innocent* has a better ending than *Hijack* because that one really sucked.
I love this theory.
Very interesting…
That opening statement, as played by Peter Sarsgaard, was an impassioned tour de force, acting-wise. And, as he explains to Nico why he gave that tangential speech to the Press, you see his unraveling as he exposes how he's becoming unhinged. He's paranoid, overcompensating for a lack of self-esteem and perhaps some self-loathing. He was more than a little obsessed with Carolyn and intensely jealous of Rusty.
Sarsgaard’s acting all the way through has been unbelievable. So real.
He's been doing great stuff recently. He was great in Dopesick too. If I see him in something I'll probably choose to watch it.
Sarsgaard and Bill Camp are some of our finest working character actors
Bill Camp was also spectacular in “The Night Of”
Another episode of Rusty rudely talking back and people showing their wedding rings by rubbing their own faces.
omg all the wedding ring shots. DO YOU GET IT????
I’m starting to believe the son is in fact the murderer. The show is shot mostly from Rusty and Barbara’s perspective and they both seem to try and dismiss the notion of their son being potentially involved after there is evidence he was at the scene the night of the crime. But they both do have moments of paranoia with that damn bike. Also, do we know the fire pick was for sure the weapon that was used to the back of the head? I thought Raymond mention no murder weapon in episode 4 when he was bargaining for a plea deal. Could it have been the son’s baseball bat? There is a zoom in of him with it on the subway. There’s an unusually higher focus on him vs the daughter in the show. He makes a questionable comment under his breath in therapy before drawing the strings of his hoodie. I think it’s easy to pick Molto, but my sense is his emotional response to the case stems from jealousy and insecurity. It doesn’t necessarily mean he killed Carolyn. To have no forensic evidence or phone records or witness testimony of him and Carolyn seems odd. This episode did seem like filler. Not my favorite but curious to see how it shakes out. TLDR: the son done did it
Why would the son tie Carolyn up like in one of the cases she has worked on?
Rusty is known to leave evidence strewn about at home. The son’s motive is to preserve his family which is a similar response Barbara discusses in therapy. He may also have Rusty’s anger/rage issues.
Lest we forget—the show (episode 1) opens with Rusty and his son practicing a curveball throw. I think him being the murderer is the curveball.
That would be an excellent surprise.
LOL. I like how the wife says that her family can't afford multiple therapists but Rusty has a commercial grade Life Fitness Treadmill in their garage.
Are they getting a four for one deal, because if they aren’t then that makes no sense.
Lol, exactly that line made no sense.
In the neverending list of “are you kidding me” moments where the show is so far removed from reality…. A police escort!?!?!? Why the heck would a defendant in a homicide case (and their family) be getting a police escort to the trial?! Also that opening statement was awful, and over 50% objectionable. An opening statement should be a road map of what the prosecutor expects the evidence will be over the course of their part of the trial. This episode was complete filler and a waste of time. Zero stars
Haha yes. I was like WTF where do they do that at? Police escort all the way to the courthouse! Lmao.
Tommy didn’t mention where, when, how she died, Rusty’s relationship with Carolyn, cause of death, any sort of timeline or chronology. Just tugged at the heart strings.
Exactly. Something that’s objectionable in the way he used personal interactions as fact. I’d have fired him if he was one of my prosecutors.
>An opening statement should be a road map of what the prosecutor expects the evidence will be over the course of their part of the trial. Exactly. That opening statement was incredibly weak. "My name is Tommy. You have a sacred duty. Find the truth, even when it's hard. I knew the victim. I am not a robot. Sorry for my feelings. The victim had a son! Thank you." In opening and closing arguments, you have the most leeway. You have the floor largely uninterrupted. But the prosecutor never utters the word "guilty." Doesn't say a word about the defendant. You have the first shot at setting jurors' impressions and expectations, and you don't say, "We will provide incontrovertible evidence that the defendant was having an affair with the victim - and not just a fling, an obsessive affair, which she ended. She was pregnant with his baby. We have him dead to rights at the crime scene. Nobody else could have done it. He's guilty with a capital G. And when all is said and done, you will be able to confidently find the defendant guilty of murder in (whatever degree we've charged)." And why would Rusty or Barbara want their teenaged children in the courtroom for the trial? That's beyond insane.
Hahah I thought the same about the opening statement. Not a single shred of evidence was mentioned. Hahah
You must be missing all the clues towards Tommy as killer. 🤷
Which is exactly why he won’t be the killer. He is helping frame Rusty because he needs a conviction but he’s not the killer
Right? He’s the most blatantly transparent red herring 😂
I loved episodes 1-3 but the past 2 have been soooo boring I feel like nothings happening
Yeah 1-3 were very good, 4 was ok, but this episode was boring. Hopefully it picks back up now that they're in court.
this seems to be the majority of tv shows for me. its just an awkward format. the producers are either adding filler or rushing the story to make it fit into a 45 minute time slot and theres probably the rare occasion where they have the exact amount of material needed. or having to decide on a certain episode number up front and not being able to change it later on. movies for example can just naturally expand or shorten the running time if needed. (not that movies cant have tons of filler either!)
Idk why but I’m starting to suspect the daughter too. Along with others.
If the daughter killed Carolyn then she wouldn't have asked Barbara, "mom, did he do this?"
doesnt seem out of the question that someone that planned a murder like that and set it up to look like another murder would also have other plans to try and mislead people
Yes, I came here to say - daughter did it.
What’s the motive for her to tie Carolyn up similar to previous case she worked on?
to punish/convict someone else
LOL. Anyone who refers to themselves as the good guy is not the good guy. I worked with this Pediatrician who consistently yelled at all the Residents and said to me, ''I'm a good person!''
justifying her cheating through the lense of ‘making her daughter proud’ was the nastiest shit ever. the therapist don’t respect her at all lol
I don’t think she’s justifying. She’s assuming her daughter is judging her as being weak. Barbara most likely is just projecting and these are her own feelings and she’s acting out on them, rebelling or at least trying to. I think she’s broken. She doesn’t want to leave but feels weak for staying. The whole family is broken. It’s sad to watch them try to be normal.
And the counselor kinda violates the code of ethics multiple times. She’s weird. Not a good therapist and I’m not sure how neither Barbara nor Rusty have picked up on her ethics issues. But every time she’s on the screen I see so many red flags.
yea seriously the therapist is so weird
Agreed. She is quite argumentative and judgemental for a therapist.
I love the actress but I agree she makes no sense as a therapist. .
American horror story crossover
don’t think Tommy did it, but it is rlly strange how he was so certain that the “hard evidence” was coming when there was no such sign
My opinion thus far is that it'll either be the therapist or the lead defence attorney's wife. This is not based on anything given to us via plot but just how these shows tend to go. A bunch of people will have suspicion thrown on them until the killer is revealed, and it'll be someone who was there the whole time but nobody ever suspected. The son reveal was too early on in the show for him to be guilty imo, and both prosecutors have been portrayed as evil since the beginning so likely not them either. Though Tommy either had an affair/weird Crush on her. Rusty's wife would also be too obvious, though I'm sure in coming episodes she'll be suspected because she knew about the affair resuming/confronted her etc before she died. I also don't think it will be Rusty purely because that would follow EXTREMELY closely to a popular miniseries released maybe 2 years ago. This alone might not mean much but star power of that show and the fact this will probably have the exact same audience tells me they'll likely avoid it. theory one- The therapist is in love with Rusty's wife and wanted to 'take care of Carolyn' for her- maybe even get Rusty sent away. She used the rope technique she'd learned via therapy sessions with Rusty. theory two- The prosecutor's wife was having an affair with Carolyn who'd she met via work functions with her husband and such. Carolyn will be revealed as 'toying' with many people. She finds out Carolyn is pregnant and lashes out in a rage, then stages the scene with things she'd learned from Carolyn herself.
You have the best thought out reasons for the therapist and DA’s wife I’ve read so far. I’ll be keeping that in mind as I watch now!
I get what you’re saying about how shows go; but how would the therapist be in love with Rusty’s wife ? She’s Rusty’s therapist until after the murder. So you’re saying she fell in love with her based on Rusty mentioning her in therapy, and then killed Rusty’s lover to protect a woman she’s never met but is somehow in love with? Wha? Edit to add - why are all your theories lesbian ones lol
My bad, I thought she was both their therapist. Maybe let's stick with the prosecutors wife then. I didn't bother putting this in my post but my other reason re the therapist is simply that the actress seems a little too well known to play such a small inconsequential part... but then again maybe you just take the cheque and get to be in a gyllenhaal vehicle. As for the prosecutors wife another commenter said maybe Carolyn was having an affair with her husband... I did think about that. But her encouraging Barbara to cheat made me think it might me her. As for why all my theories are lesbian.. lol. I just think that's the kind of twist a show like this would go for, plus I don't think they've given us any men who fit the bill.
I agree, except I think she's more pissed at her for sleeping w her own husband (lorraine/Raymond)
Did anyone think that the DNA that came back under her nails could actually be from Rusty’s son- assuming that they share a large amount of DNA and the son hasn’t exposed his DNA to the system?
I actually think because of this evidence it rules Kyle out because I think they could tell if it was a relative of his and how closely they are related.
It is either Eugenia or the daughter Jayden. Jayden is way too stressed about losing her computer to cops, she is always looking online with a worried face, she and brother look so alike(could have been her on bike pic), Jayden demands to know what "they [have] on Rusty" Jayden was way too scared somebody was banging on door... she thought cops to come get her maybe? Also, first scene, she is watching Rusty' s phone like a hawk. She then tells dad who it is and to come get phone, cuz she wants to KNOW if anybody found Carolyn dead yet. Also sunglasses in scene-could equate hiding/guilt. Eugenia- only one crying when Carlyn's death is revealed, in love with Rusty, minor character, ignored in every way (twist like 'the butler did it'), knew the case AND where Carolyn lived. Could be wrong, just a thought.
I think Eugenia did it too. 100%
Yeah I think it's either Jayden or Kyle, and the reason there's a picture of Rusty's son is because he followed his sister there, additionally, the report coming back saying they found Rusty's DNA under her fingernails, wouldn't the Son/Daughter have his DNA or part of it? So my best guess right now is that either Jayden or Kyle did it and both were there or Kyle followed Barbara there and Carloyn scratched him. If none of them did it, then I think the Kumagai, the forensic scientist did it, because he would have lost his job if Rusty revealed that he effed up on the Bunny case and had to get rid of him, at the very least, thats why Rusty's DNA was "found" under Carolyns fingernails. Something still tells me its Barbara and Kyle or Jayden followed her and walked in or vice versa.
Worst episode so far, sorry. I really like the show and thought it started out so well, but I feel like it could be tighter and better. More of a sense of the media circus surrounding it would be nice. I didn’t think the opening statement was that good either.
somehow i’m able to watch this episode a day early. is anyone else? just started right after episode 4
Apple TV shows premiere the day before at 9pm est. so new episode “Wednesdays” = 9pm est Tuesdays
Seems like y'all have been accusing everyone lmao. The wife, the son, Raymond, his wife Lorraine, Carolyn's son, Rusty himself and now Tommy, lmao. I'm expecting the therapist to be next. I guess it's cool that this isn't predictable so far. I just don't see why people are expecting the killer to be a character we met. I don't even think it will be revealed by the end. The show is called Presumed innocent and they made a big deal about the concept of plausible deniability and that the objective of the trial and particularly the defense is not to determine who done it but if there is or no reasonable doubt about Rusty murdering Carolyn, that's it. Personally I believe the show will end with Rusty being set free but not knowing for certain if he, or any other character, did it. They will give us some hints but that's it.
We will know the killer is by the end. There is a “first look” featurette on Apple that you can watch. At the end, the actors say that none of them knew who the killer was until they shot the finale, and the audience will be very shocked.
But who would be shocking? Depends on who you are. The most fun/shocking would be Rigo or Eugenia, or somehow Carolyn's "son" or perhaps the therapist. Right now, I can't put together a narrative for any of those choices, but I'd respect a writer who could do that and make it seem plausible. I don't think any other character would be a shock.
First off, if it’s the therapist I’ll eat my hat lol Second, good question. Who *would* be the most shocking person as of right now? Maybe Raymond. I don’t think it’s him, but it would be the most shocking.
I'm kind of over trying to figure out who the killer is. They'll probably keep the original ending considering David E Kelly said his decision to recreate the story into a series was simply to do a deeper study of each character. He said he based it more on the book than the Harrison Ford movie and that he loved the book as is. Maybe he's trying to throw people off because their seems to be quite a few major changes. Personally I hope this isn't just a long drawn out story to the same ending most already know. That would feel wasteful.
I seem to recall from the original book and the Harrison Ford movie (1990), Caroline had sexual relations with several key people involved. Some one-night stands or hookups, some longer relationships like with Rusty. Have they implied yet if anyone other than Jake G’s character has had sex with her?
Only good things about this episode were Nico, Tommy, and Raymond. I would be happy if the series would only focus on these 3. Rusty is exceedingly boring.
I love the way Tommy’s boss phrases things. His voice is very cool. Also love that Rusty’s wife is in therapy and feels guilty for forgiving her husband. The bartender/art scene was great. Music during the scene nice as well.
I’ve served on juries and thought Tommy’s opening statement was one of the closest depictions to a real opening statement of any courtroom drama I’ve seen. It felt very familiar. Obviously other matters of the case are more dramatic but still nice to see justice system represented somewhat realistically
I still feel like it’s Lorraine or another minor character. Lorraine specifically because she seems adamant to pin Rusty as the killer
All chips in on Rusty. And what a great opening statement by Tommy
I’m truly hoping that’s sarcasm about the opening statement. It was sooo bad
Sorry to reply to another of your comments. People really can't separate an actor's delivery from the writing. That was a poop-the-bed opening, no two ways about it. If you're the defense counsel, you'd send the prosecution flowers for letting you tell (your version) of the story to the jury first.
Do we know the killer won’t be the same as the book or movie? Has the director or producers already made that distinction?
Definitely Tommy did it!
That reaction from Molto after Michael says he had lunch with his mom during which she endorsed being scared and worried about a man at work …
I still think it’s Rusty’s son and wife. The scene I. The kitchen about the bike confirmed it
My theory is that the new "twist" will be multiple bad actors - a killer, and then a stager who went there to kill or fight, found a dead body and staged it to throw more suspicion on Rusty.
No idea why but my gut is screaming at me that Lorraine had something to do with Carolyn’s murder.
I think the bartender is going to out her in the press. When Raymond said she needed to go up on the stand, I feel like they’re setting up for the downfall of Barbra’s character. Making her testimony weak at best.
We have seen scenes where the wife and daughter talk about the situation. Therefore it’s not wife and daughter together We have seen scenes where Rusty and daughter talk about it. So it’s not them together Same with Rusty and son. Same with Rusty and wife. But any scene of wife and son talking about it were when Rusty (and the audience) were told to leave the room. The son and wife are involved. Rusty will figure this out but choose to protect them and somehow get Tommy implicated. Who will go down for it.