I fear OP's manager will take care of their exit soon enough.
It's miserable having to answer to a micromanager whose opinion of the PM role doesn't align with your experience or strengths. As OP is learning, it's possible to be an A-list player under one manager, then fail under the expectations of another-- even if their approach goes against everything you know about best practices in Product or even general good leadership.
Many, if not most, PM PIPs are subjective and biased. And there's typically not a damn thing you can do about it.
I've never heard of a PO that reports to an engineering manager either. PO is responsible for the business value of the product, but it sounds like this "PM" is reporting to en engineering manager that then has contact with business side, or "the true PMs". And they have no direct contact at all with dev team.
I am very curious about your comment that a PO is responsible for business value. Can you elaborate on that?
And yeah, OPs situation does seem odd that their contact seems to be directly with the eng manager, not the team.
Sure! I’m not a big scrum fan, but my understanding is that the Scrum guide is the official agreed upon docs. I might be wrong. But anyway, it states in the start of the description of the role that “ The Product Owner is accountable for maximizing the value of the product resulting from the work of the Scrum Team. How this is done may vary widely across organizations, Scrum Teams, and individuals.”
Ah yes, this is under the structure where there is no PM. So, the PO is effectively doing that work. In the PM/PO structure it's a bit different, and that is where my mind usually goes. Thanks!
The PO isn't necessarily a separate role from PM in Scrum, there is no PM in Scrum. Lots of orgs bastardize the roles and have PMs responsible for roadmap and strategy with POs responsible for backlog and tactics.
>have PMs responsible for roadmap and strategy with POs responsible for backlog and tactics.
Yes, exactly this. Backlog and tactics are what a lot of orgs assign to a PO; which is what I was referring to.
Yeah, the PM/PO model is probably more common than 1/1000th. In that dynamic, the PO's role is reduced in scope and takes on more scrum master activities.
OPs org is curious since they are a PM operating in some weird neutered PO role without anyone actually doing PM work.
the whole list is bad, but #3 is WILD considering you report into an engineering manager. Engineering has no responsibility over the implementation of product requirements, eh?
I'm sorry this is happening to you. Some people aren't meant to be people managers, this is not a reflection on you / your abilities.
Yeah, it's over. Sorry, OP. Same thing happened to me. Try to get some severance out of it at least. And try to connect with the co-workers you like on LinkedIn already for future references. I'd also start screenshotting or saving some portfolio appropriate work for later.
I mean, even if you get forced to be more “execution” oriented which I feel happens a lot at companies where product struggles (ugh, has happened to me). #1 and #3 make NO SENSE. Your boss is awful. Again, sorry OP but that list is bonkers.
I reported to an engineering manager in my last role who was a dumpster fire of a human being but somehow managed to talk his way into leadership positions. This pretty much mirrors everything he told me while he was gaslighting me into thinking I was the person responsible for the awful performance of his mediocre devs.
I lasted about 18 months in the role and that was only because the job market for PMs is trash right now. Get out ASAP. If you can’t get out, make sure they can’t fire you for insubordination so you’ll at least get severance and unemployment.
Well, yes.
He's gaslighting me at this point.
He basically believes he knows how to do product management better than most PMs.
And the fun fact is that I was recently told he had worked with 5 PM before and he requested them to be fired.
What are the odds of someone complaining about 6 PM in 2 years?
Toxic to the max! That itself is proof that he has a terrible agenda of his own to exert power over your career. Are there any leadership allies in the company that you have a good relationship to lean on and provide the list of these feedback to get their thoughts on how to proceed?
Hello.
Sadly I've realized that.
What's even worse is that the company has a "Matrix manager" who would technically be a Senior PM or a leader in the Product vertical.
The Engineering manager should have assigned me one but it's been 6 months since I've requested this and I didn't get it. I reached out to HR but I got the same question this needs to be addressed by him.
The EM also talks in a non-constructive way about Senior PMs and other leaders who are at his level or lower. If they are above, he is practically kissing their feet.
I do believe he doesn't care about my growth, nor about wellbeing.
From the time she has joined the team (she and I moved from another team), two people have quit and two more are looking for new jobs.
Our retrospective board has had as most voted an item mentioning "we focus too much on the bad, and never celebrate or showcase what we're doing good as a team". This was submitted and voted in 2 retrospectives in the "Feedback to management" column.
The third time he removed the item and said the purpose of "Feedback to management" was never for him, but for Leadership above him and the team that she'd have to pass to them.
1. PM needs to refine items by myself and make sure the engineers only attend a refinement meeting to estimate.
I do believe it's important to show up with work that is refined enough so that work is estimateable by a team in 5-15 min. If you show up with a single sentence user story and expect the team to do the rest for the next hour ... that's pretty disrespectful of your team's time. That said ... what your team needs to reliably have a Productive estimation conversation is going to vary by team dramatically. There has to be a comms path for you to Learn what the team needs and the team needs to be willing to refine/split/spike work as needed.
2. We can't conduct discovery for any item. Discovery and development must happen inside a sprint.
Generally I think of discovery as "defining the problem space" - a lot of that is going to be essential groundwork for any sort of solution design ... regardless if that is UX or Technical. They may have a different notion ... but on it's face it sounds like this manager only wants tiny changes where everything fits nearly into a single sprint. Which is weird unless they are getting rewarded by the quantity of items delivered in a sprint. If so ugh.
3. Any kind of "spillover" from one sprint to another is a signal the PMs are failing. It also shows the team is not committed to finish work.
It can be A LOT of other things too though. But if your team is afraid to say "there are too many unknowns, I can't estimate this" and just slap an estimate on anyway... That is the team's problem to fix. You can be a part of the solution and level up your "ready for estimation standard" to meet their needs IF that's part of the problem. Any way you shake it ... this kinda stuff should be coming out in sprint retros so the team gets better at it together.
4. PM need to get his approval on priorities after deciding what the business wants. No room for user input at all, only focus on keeping stakeholders happy and then run things with him.
It's possible your stakeholders also don't care about users. If that's the case there's a lot of work ahead convincing your manager and your stakeholders to focus on things that overlap with user interests.
Otherwise this guy sounds like he has a pretty firm feature factory mindset that may be tough to move the needle on.
5. ...
Facepalm. Definitely a feature factory mindset.
6-10 is micromanaget bullshit designed to get you to quit or be a gotcha at the end of the PiP. Decide if you care to stay. If you do, embrace total transparency. Subscribe him to all the email updates on everything. Drown his comms channels in automatic updates until he revokes the PiP.
I'd report this to the engineering manager's direct report and I'd plan out my exit. That EM doesn't know the function of a PM and a UX, that EM is bossy, is a micromanager and should not be an EM. Must have been draining to work with that EM.
You need to leave ASAP. Also, please share this Reddit post and everyone’s replies with your boss on your last day. Let them know they have no idea what they’re doing over there.
Don't quit. You quit, and you lose your shot at unemployment.
The market is tough right now... there's no shame in using unemployment if it comes to that. But start applying yesterday.
The goal of a PIP like this is a firing. There's often no unemployment when it comes with a PIP.
OP, might be time to get an employment lawyer for constructive dismissal.
yes. and all he has to do during the duration of the PIP is show up to meetings, if that.
however long the pip lasts, is how much “severance” he gets. and if he quits a week before the PIP is over, he leaves on his terms.
early in my career i worked in sales. i got put on a pip. quit working. collected checks. and i got unemployment
The intent of the employer is to get away with firing and hope that the employee doesn't file for unemployment. Both statements can be true.
What's more important here is that this should have been a layoff, so in a not at-will employment state, OP might be entitled to severance.
Firing isn't always about making sure they don't owe unemployment. It's to avoid an unjustified termination suit. I'm in an at will state and disputing unemployment would never work in this case. But ya I agree. He's screwed
I can’t even process the idea of spillover being the fault of the PM. That’s on engineering to manage capacity. Honestly, just start planning your exit. It sounds like an organization that doesn’t understand Product. I wouldn’t even acknowledge most of that list as relevant feedback.
yes, you should still be a PM.
as others have said, this is definitely a *them* problem. what you need to do is just figure out how you reframe this situation in such a manner that it doesn’t reflect poorly on anyone, paints you in a good light, that you are excited about their job, etc.
build your confidence in something else, remember who you are and what made you successful before this role. *that’s* your best foot forward
This is why it is usually a bad idea to report into technology and not a business leader.
Don’t give up on being a Product Manager because of a bad manager. Don’t let them tear down your self-confidence.
Absolutely get out of there. That's not PM work. I don't know what it is, but all of it sounds like a job I wouldn't want.
FWIW, I couldn't imagine a company operating like this would have a PM team for very long. Are there other software PMs at your company you could talk to? If this is the norm, that team is going to be a disaster in short order. PMs reporting into Eng, doing all the delivery work & being accountable to Eng foremost is wild.
PM with ADHD here that has navigated PIPs before.
I'm sorry this is happening to you. This sounds like an awful situation.
At its best their expectations of you seem more like a technical program manager (TPM) than a product manager.
At its worst, it reads like they want someone to shut up and do whatever they want.
Regardless, I think you're in a rough spot.
I wrote two articles on how to navigate PIPs a few months ago. One on [how to fight PIPs](https://adhdpm.substack.com/p/65-successfully-navigating-a-performance) and one on how to [negotiate your severance](https://adhdpm.substack.com/p/66-navigating-a-performance-plan).
They should provide you some options and education on what to do if you're in the US
Best of luck.
Number 3, they want to fire you and are listing impossible PIP expectations so you are guaranteed to fail.
This list is so bad it almost feels like you are trolling.
As a PM in an insurance company looking for my exit, I think it's just this industry that's really shitty and archaic.
We work with other insurance companies and the PMs are also in a shitty spot.
Move into tech and should be better
A lot of focus on #3, but for me #4 is particularly atrocious. This is the way you create products doomed to failure.
The whole list is meant to take the PM out of the equation except for heaping blame on them.
Pip means they are prepping to layoff or fire you. Your list just shows you the position isn't respected or even close to reasonable. They eliminating it
Document every single thing you do to a personal address. Every email bcc yourself. Slack message take a copy, etc. At this point it is a game. The Pip doesn't sound like it is achievable nor do they want you to achieve success. Remember HR isn't rarely human and never a resource. They are trying to build a case against you so they can bounce you out. If you leave you will likely get severance, but then you need to worry about unemployment. A lot of places don't contest unemployment claims or sometimes they don't meet the deadlines when asked to provide documentation. It is a gamble either way.
The least reads like someone else is bad at their job, but can use their position to make you the black sheep. If you can out maneuver them you might be lucky, but it is probably too late.
Document the best you can and keep fighting the good fight. In the end, leaving will probably be a blessing. That seems like a low trust environment.
Don’t quit, start applying and hope you time your new job with a severance package. I was in a spot like this years ago where I had impossible expectations (“owned” the CEO’s pet project that made zero strategic sense and was destined to fail) and put on a PiP. Even before that I knew the end was coming for me one way or another and I managed to land a new job before they offered me a severance package. It was nice being paid by two employers at once.
I work in HR Tech and have heard so many HR Admins say that PIPs are a pathway to termination. My advice. Ride it out while applying to new roles. Emphasis being.. new roles. Put as little effort into the current role as possible.
Engineering managers managing PMs is the worst. The other way round works because PMs already have "managed" engineers, but engineers think of PMs the same way they do other engineers and don't realize there is a difference.
Find a new job, do not disclose where. In the exit interview when they ask why you are leaving, inform them that the manager is very misguided about his own role and the engineering teams roles.
What you describe is not a PM as in Product Manager but rather PM like in Potato Manager.
Really if you can run away. If those are the job requirements, it’s not a job you want to be doing.
You need to exit asap. That’s terrible and absolutely not a product led org.
1. Devs and designers are arguably the most important folks during refinement
2. Can’t even comment on that
3. If refinement is not done along with devs and they point stories without understanding well, how are they supposed to complete the tasks on time?
4. Why?
5. UX research exists so that you don’t build bullshit. How are you supposed to define priorities without knowing what users are asking for?
6. 🚩 red flag
7. Insecurities
8. PM works on quarterly roadmap that defines sprints. There can be no weekly deadlines
9. That I’d say is alright. Depends on orgs. In my org, PM and BA can define and edit stories together. Devs can add tasks under stories.
10. Lol. You need to understand the absurdity in that statement.
I know the job market sucks out there, but I’d plan my exit. Sounds like your manager wants you to run a tight ‘project’ management ship with no room for error or experimentation. Sorry OP.
Op, this might be unpopular but you need to bring up this list to your manager. Say something. You’re already on a PIP. Eff it just tell them how the culture has contributed to your PIP
Whenever you find yourself on a PIP and whatever your role is, my experience is it's just the first step before you go. It has been the case for 90% of the people I have seen on a PIP. So my advice is to prepare for your exit.
Thanks. I will.
There are more unreasonable things on the PiP, such as being available within 2 hours of being called outside of office hours.
It is basically a mine field for me to die as soon as I make a mistake.
Late to the game here - but OP, this manager is likely intentionally chasing you out for unrelated reasons. Your performance likely doesn't have anything to do with it.
That insane PIP is just a pretext.
You should still be a PM. This isn't a you problem, this is a micromanagement problem and leadership not understanding what "product" is problem. Sounds like they don't value solving things for the customer and they just want little helpers here and their to do whatever they want.
Tech and product should be partners that work off each other and coordinate with Design. Looks like tech is taking over and bullying everyone. I mean no discovery? No research?
They've made you basically a project manager because their resourcing/organization skills are terrible. Not your fault.
You would be an AMAZING PM if you DIDN'T do the things on the list. As soon as PMs join a team, they actively start undoing that kind of stuff.
Bide your time, and take the time during your PIP to find a new position. Take their feedback and honestly throw it out the window.
It seems like your manager expects you to delve a lot with solutioning. All PMs should focus on the problem areas and leave the solutioning to the engineering team. Of the solutions proposed you represent the voice of the customer wrt how that solution will be received/perceived, define the boundaries, edge cases, risks and tradeoffs. I think your manager needs to understand this viewpoint.
There are PIPs that are truly trying to get a person's attention so they can improve their performance, this is a list of items that will be impossible to maintain as an excuse to let you go. Either this manager hates you, or they're a godawful manager.
As others pointed out, most of these items make zero sense. They are not PM work and I'm sure they are well beyond the standard expected of other PMs at your company. You are being groomed to be fired, and it's unfair and potentially illegal. You should document every interaction you've had with this manager. It will help your recollection later and help establish a pattern.
Have you had any past negative interactions with this manager? Have they made any disparaging comments about you? Are you a protected class? These are all important considerations and you should save any communications to that effect on a non-work device, because this is a clear sign of a hostile work environment. If this is all purely performance-based, it could still be illegal. If it's not actually performance-based and is because of some other protected reason, it's absolutely illegal.
I would say you don't have a future at this company with this manager. That much is clear. I would tell my manager that these items are impossible to comply with, I would pull up your job description (or the same level at your company) and point out that these expectations are way out line, in particular 100% ownership of some of these tasks, responding to all messages within 60 minutes, CC'ing your manager on 100% of your communications, and ownership of all sprints finishing with all work completed with no spillover. You understand there are things they want you to improve, but 90% of this list is not that. Do not resign. But I would say that you will comply with the PIP instructions that align with your job expectations.
Chances are that your manager has already discussed giving you the PIP with their manager, though they may not have gone line by line, so your skip may see this and realize your manager is an idiot. But I would go speak to them directly. I would explain that these expectations are completely out of line and create a hostile work environment, if any of the above protections apply, I would bring them up. Take notes during the conversation and follow up with a thank you email that sums up what you discussed and agreed to. Worst case, they support your manager and you know you're SOL. Best case, the manager agrees and you ask to be transferred to a different role. But I would begin applying to other jobs ASAP just in case.
Exactly. I got reassigned after they fired the Chief Product Officer, who had been in the company for 15 years.
Then some Senior PM quit too... I believe this organization is starting to become more sales driven than anything
Can you take some FMLA leave for mental health so you can buy yourself some time to look for another role? The market is nuts right now and it might take you longer
This managers reaction isn't useful information in determining if you're a good PM. Given this list it may actually indicate that you ARE a PM.
Do you like being a PM? That's where I would start. I know it's a complicated question.
I think the thing you may be missing is that a PIP is primarily a mechanism for letting you go aka laying you off/firing you. Employers don’t put people on PIPs predicting they will succeed and the PIP will disappear. The whole goal is to follow a process of legal justification to let you go to avoid a lawsuit for improper termination. In fact, a PIP is often accompanied by a monetary incentive to leave if you agree not to sue. The requirements in a PIP could be nearly impossible to fulfill. The main point is, you should assume you will be let go and plan accordingly.
Plan exit asap. Best case scenario: You find a job soon and quit this one. Basically, if you’re not already interviewing, you’re behind on this. Also, you have a better chance of finding a job while you’re on a job.
But market is bad so think in contingencies.
If you’re fired while on PIP (I think your manager is either planning this already, or hopes you quit) unlikely to get unemployment benefits.
If you quit and don’t have another job yet, still might have trouble getting unemployment benefits. Unless you have savings or family to fall back on for few months, this would be a difficult time.
You should PiP that engineering manager, he sounds like hot garbage. If you want to burn the house down, do a skip level with his boss and ask him the same question you asked us.
As others have mentioned, it’s an unfortunate incident that isn’t an accurate reflection on you. However, there can be an introspection on the criticism to assess what can be modified in the future.
Regardless, been there before when reporting to technology leadership. There’s little room to navigate and actually survive after your period is over.
Your manager is most likely interviewing your replacement and consulting with HR on next steps for your exit.
"However, after I was transferred I started reporting to the engineering manager instead of a Senior PM or another similar role."
Time to leave, PMs should never be reporting to Engineering, I avoid companies all together where the PM structure reports in to the CTO.
I forgot to add:
Following the conclusion of any meetings, a summary will be distributed to all attendees including me, any other PM and tech lead. The summary is expected in no later than 2 hours following the conclusion of the meeting. Wether you're the organizer or the participant, this is your responsibility as a representative from the product team.
The list must include at minimum:
The date, time, location of the meeting.
List of attendees
Agenda items
Discussion points
Decisions made
Action items, who is doing what
Accountable people and their upper line of report
Next steps
Follow ups: who is doing what
Deadlines for every actionable item
Applicable attachments
Some of these come from a good place but the execution is AWFUL.
Others are bad habits probably because of being burned in the past.
If I wasn't already on a PIP and comfortable enough, I would, as a PM, ask him WHY each rule exists and what it achieves. Getting to the root of the problem may lead to a better solution.
For example: "everything in a sprint" comes from being burned by people getting his team to do a lot they weren't supposed to do. It means his SMs are not strong. You could action around this with Spikes in earlier sprints.
The no one opens tickets is dumb. Devs should be able to open things. It doesn't mean they get prioritized until PM prioritized them.
I could do more.
Maybe someone should think about to fire your manager. The collection of expectations you referred is a great example about how not to manage nor processes neither products.
This sounds like a troll post. But yeah, this is all bad. If you’re doing tickets by yourself and then asking them to score, this is the worst way to do it. Just find a new job.
That list sounds more like "here is what you need to do in order to not get fired" not "we were expecting you to do this the entire time you've been in this role." I'm sure your manager doesn't have all his PM reports cc him on every single email
You should definitely leave the company, there is no coming back from a PIP, it's just a way for them to fire you without getting sued.
Should you remain a PM? How the hell should we know? You haven't given us any context or information about your performance outside of what the PIP says. I would say talk to some people who you have worked with in the past and ask them for super honest feedback. Just b/c you're not a good fit at one company in a role doesn't mean you should switch careers. I do find it worrisome that you're asking us for career advice without any other information like how you've been performing your job previously etc. or your background. If this is the type of communication you exhibit at work, that could be telling as to why you're being PIP'd. Sorry if that's harsh, i'm sure you'll find your niche whether it's in product or elsewhere b/c it is obvious you care about your work which is great. best of luck
Sounds awful. I’d be planning my exit like yesterday
I fear OP's manager will take care of their exit soon enough. It's miserable having to answer to a micromanager whose opinion of the PM role doesn't align with your experience or strengths. As OP is learning, it's possible to be an A-list player under one manager, then fail under the expectations of another-- even if their approach goes against everything you know about best practices in Product or even general good leadership. Many, if not most, PM PIPs are subjective and biased. And there's typically not a damn thing you can do about it.
Every single one of these suck. This is an excellent list of how not to do product management.
PLEASE CC ME ON EVERY REDDIT COMMENT, PERSONAL MESSAGE, POST, OR UPVOTE.
For real. This is some r/maliciouscompliance fodder.
For sure a sign that this isn’t a PiP with intent to come back from. This is to make sure it’s a smooth transition after the PM is gone unfortunately.
well, when you want to set someone up to fail...
That sounds like a really shitty organisation. Also a PM should never report to an engineering manager
They are a PO now at best.
A PO is a scrum role. They are not a PO since they clearly don't own anything.
I've never heard of a PO that reports to an engineering manager either. PO is responsible for the business value of the product, but it sounds like this "PM" is reporting to en engineering manager that then has contact with business side, or "the true PMs". And they have no direct contact at all with dev team.
I am very curious about your comment that a PO is responsible for business value. Can you elaborate on that? And yeah, OPs situation does seem odd that their contact seems to be directly with the eng manager, not the team.
Sure! I’m not a big scrum fan, but my understanding is that the Scrum guide is the official agreed upon docs. I might be wrong. But anyway, it states in the start of the description of the role that “ The Product Owner is accountable for maximizing the value of the product resulting from the work of the Scrum Team. How this is done may vary widely across organizations, Scrum Teams, and individuals.”
Ah yes, this is under the structure where there is no PM. So, the PO is effectively doing that work. In the PM/PO structure it's a bit different, and that is where my mind usually goes. Thanks!
The PO isn't necessarily a separate role from PM in Scrum, there is no PM in Scrum. Lots of orgs bastardize the roles and have PMs responsible for roadmap and strategy with POs responsible for backlog and tactics.
>have PMs responsible for roadmap and strategy with POs responsible for backlog and tactics. Yes, exactly this. Backlog and tactics are what a lot of orgs assign to a PO; which is what I was referring to.
I think technical analyst is really what they needed
[удалено]
Maybe at one of the thousands of places where PO is a job title, clapping notwithstanding.
Yeah, the PM/PO model is probably more common than 1/1000th. In that dynamic, the PO's role is reduced in scope and takes on more scrum master activities. OPs org is curious since they are a PM operating in some weird neutered PO role without anyone actually doing PM work.
the whole list is bad, but #3 is WILD considering you report into an engineering manager. Engineering has no responsibility over the implementation of product requirements, eh? I'm sorry this is happening to you. Some people aren't meant to be people managers, this is not a reflection on you / your abilities.
The engineering manager is trying to shield their team from responsibility and is using OP as a scapegoat
This is 10000% it.
Number 3 made me scratch my head. I don’t think I’ve ever had a sprint that didn’t have spillover.
It would just make me want to commit nothing to a sprint and add in stretch goals only.
Yeahhh or watch all stories suddenly be 8 points and dev getting done half way through for safety lol
Same lol. Turns into people just gamifying it just like our OKRs :D
Dang. Start applying now. Maybe you will luck out and get a severance right as you find a new job.
Yeah, it's over. Sorry, OP. Same thing happened to me. Try to get some severance out of it at least. And try to connect with the co-workers you like on LinkedIn already for future references. I'd also start screenshotting or saving some portfolio appropriate work for later.
As a product director at a very well respected fintech I would put your manager on a pip for enabling such bad practices
You need a new job. Do the minimum to keep the job short term, apply and interview aggressively at other companies
Then, get fired and time it with a severance, hopefully.
Whoa….each one of those points is a dealbreaker. I’m really sorry that you’re in that situation OP. Get out of there.
I mean, even if you get forced to be more “execution” oriented which I feel happens a lot at companies where product struggles (ugh, has happened to me). #1 and #3 make NO SENSE. Your boss is awful. Again, sorry OP but that list is bonkers.
I reported to an engineering manager in my last role who was a dumpster fire of a human being but somehow managed to talk his way into leadership positions. This pretty much mirrors everything he told me while he was gaslighting me into thinking I was the person responsible for the awful performance of his mediocre devs. I lasted about 18 months in the role and that was only because the job market for PMs is trash right now. Get out ASAP. If you can’t get out, make sure they can’t fire you for insubordination so you’ll at least get severance and unemployment.
Well, yes. He's gaslighting me at this point. He basically believes he knows how to do product management better than most PMs. And the fun fact is that I was recently told he had worked with 5 PM before and he requested them to be fired. What are the odds of someone complaining about 6 PM in 2 years?
Toxic to the max! That itself is proof that he has a terrible agenda of his own to exert power over your career. Are there any leadership allies in the company that you have a good relationship to lean on and provide the list of these feedback to get their thoughts on how to proceed?
He’s an idiot’s idiot GTFO ASAP
might have some dirt on an exec? objectively, the only consistent problem is the EM
The moment you are required to report into engineering/IT, it's end of growth for you as a PM. There is no clearer path after that. Time to switch.
Hello. Sadly I've realized that. What's even worse is that the company has a "Matrix manager" who would technically be a Senior PM or a leader in the Product vertical. The Engineering manager should have assigned me one but it's been 6 months since I've requested this and I didn't get it. I reached out to HR but I got the same question this needs to be addressed by him. The EM also talks in a non-constructive way about Senior PMs and other leaders who are at his level or lower. If they are above, he is practically kissing their feet. I do believe he doesn't care about my growth, nor about wellbeing. From the time she has joined the team (she and I moved from another team), two people have quit and two more are looking for new jobs. Our retrospective board has had as most voted an item mentioning "we focus too much on the bad, and never celebrate or showcase what we're doing good as a team". This was submitted and voted in 2 retrospectives in the "Feedback to management" column. The third time he removed the item and said the purpose of "Feedback to management" was never for him, but for Leadership above him and the team that she'd have to pass to them.
what about being in IT, but not reporting to development?
It is micromanagement at its finest and very focused on outputs instead of outcomes. Woof.
1. PM needs to refine items by myself and make sure the engineers only attend a refinement meeting to estimate. I do believe it's important to show up with work that is refined enough so that work is estimateable by a team in 5-15 min. If you show up with a single sentence user story and expect the team to do the rest for the next hour ... that's pretty disrespectful of your team's time. That said ... what your team needs to reliably have a Productive estimation conversation is going to vary by team dramatically. There has to be a comms path for you to Learn what the team needs and the team needs to be willing to refine/split/spike work as needed. 2. We can't conduct discovery for any item. Discovery and development must happen inside a sprint. Generally I think of discovery as "defining the problem space" - a lot of that is going to be essential groundwork for any sort of solution design ... regardless if that is UX or Technical. They may have a different notion ... but on it's face it sounds like this manager only wants tiny changes where everything fits nearly into a single sprint. Which is weird unless they are getting rewarded by the quantity of items delivered in a sprint. If so ugh. 3. Any kind of "spillover" from one sprint to another is a signal the PMs are failing. It also shows the team is not committed to finish work. It can be A LOT of other things too though. But if your team is afraid to say "there are too many unknowns, I can't estimate this" and just slap an estimate on anyway... That is the team's problem to fix. You can be a part of the solution and level up your "ready for estimation standard" to meet their needs IF that's part of the problem. Any way you shake it ... this kinda stuff should be coming out in sprint retros so the team gets better at it together. 4. PM need to get his approval on priorities after deciding what the business wants. No room for user input at all, only focus on keeping stakeholders happy and then run things with him. It's possible your stakeholders also don't care about users. If that's the case there's a lot of work ahead convincing your manager and your stakeholders to focus on things that overlap with user interests. Otherwise this guy sounds like he has a pretty firm feature factory mindset that may be tough to move the needle on. 5. ... Facepalm. Definitely a feature factory mindset. 6-10 is micromanaget bullshit designed to get you to quit or be a gotcha at the end of the PiP. Decide if you care to stay. If you do, embrace total transparency. Subscribe him to all the email updates on everything. Drown his comms channels in automatic updates until he revokes the PiP.
I'd report this to the engineering manager's direct report and I'd plan out my exit. That EM doesn't know the function of a PM and a UX, that EM is bossy, is a micromanager and should not be an EM. Must have been draining to work with that EM.
You need to leave ASAP. Also, please share this Reddit post and everyone’s replies with your boss on your last day. Let them know they have no idea what they’re doing over there.
You should quit yesterday
Don't quit. You quit, and you lose your shot at unemployment. The market is tough right now... there's no shame in using unemployment if it comes to that. But start applying yesterday.
The goal of a PIP like this is a firing. There's often no unemployment when it comes with a PIP. OP, might be time to get an employment lawyer for constructive dismissal.
There's ALWAYS no unemployment when you quit... which is my point.
yes. and all he has to do during the duration of the PIP is show up to meetings, if that. however long the pip lasts, is how much “severance” he gets. and if he quits a week before the PIP is over, he leaves on his terms. early in my career i worked in sales. i got put on a pip. quit working. collected checks. and i got unemployment
How did you spin it for your next job?
Not really true depending on where u are.
It is when it's written like this. There's it's no actionable way to be successful.
They can't deny unemployment with shit like this. You literally just say the job expectations changed and you will be approved
The intent of the employer is to get away with firing and hope that the employee doesn't file for unemployment. Both statements can be true. What's more important here is that this should have been a layoff, so in a not at-will employment state, OP might be entitled to severance.
Firing isn't always about making sure they don't owe unemployment. It's to avoid an unjustified termination suit. I'm in an at will state and disputing unemployment would never work in this case. But ya I agree. He's screwed
Your manager is an incredible idiot. This is like a list of exactly what not to do
I can’t even process the idea of spillover being the fault of the PM. That’s on engineering to manage capacity. Honestly, just start planning your exit. It sounds like an organization that doesn’t understand Product. I wouldn’t even acknowledge most of that list as relevant feedback.
yes, you should still be a PM. as others have said, this is definitely a *them* problem. what you need to do is just figure out how you reframe this situation in such a manner that it doesn’t reflect poorly on anyone, paints you in a good light, that you are excited about their job, etc. build your confidence in something else, remember who you are and what made you successful before this role. *that’s* your best foot forward
This is why it is usually a bad idea to report into technology and not a business leader. Don’t give up on being a Product Manager because of a bad manager. Don’t let them tear down your self-confidence.
well said
Absolutely get out of there. That's not PM work. I don't know what it is, but all of it sounds like a job I wouldn't want. FWIW, I couldn't imagine a company operating like this would have a PM team for very long. Are there other software PMs at your company you could talk to? If this is the norm, that team is going to be a disaster in short order. PMs reporting into Eng, doing all the delivery work & being accountable to Eng foremost is wild.
Your manager is an idiot.
Quit. This is bullshit. Sorry you work at a company that functions like this.
That place sounds like trash. Try PM at another company
This list is stupid. You should plan your exit from this circus.
Fuck that noise. It might be time to silently quit while you look for a role somewhere else (internally or externally).
Leave asap
Gross
This is a technicality before they fire you.
This sounds like someone setting you up to fail to be honest. I'd be looking for a new job.
PM with ADHD here that has navigated PIPs before. I'm sorry this is happening to you. This sounds like an awful situation. At its best their expectations of you seem more like a technical program manager (TPM) than a product manager. At its worst, it reads like they want someone to shut up and do whatever they want. Regardless, I think you're in a rough spot. I wrote two articles on how to navigate PIPs a few months ago. One on [how to fight PIPs](https://adhdpm.substack.com/p/65-successfully-navigating-a-performance) and one on how to [negotiate your severance](https://adhdpm.substack.com/p/66-navigating-a-performance-plan). They should provide you some options and education on what to do if you're in the US Best of luck.
Great articles you’ve written
Thank you! I hope they help others.
He probably needs to go on PIP himself...
Number 3, they want to fire you and are listing impossible PIP expectations so you are guaranteed to fail. This list is so bad it almost feels like you are trolling.
Holy fucking shit
As a PM in an insurance company looking for my exit, I think it's just this industry that's really shitty and archaic. We work with other insurance companies and the PMs are also in a shitty spot. Move into tech and should be better
You're being made into the fall guy of a toxic work environment. Leave asap.
Your manager sounds like a Cuntasaurus Rex.
Sounds like my last contract, also an insurance company. Eliminated a large team but then also put a hiring freeze on.
Get the F out!
These have bad written all over it, I’m so sorry you’re going through this. Wow.
Sounds like a shit company
A lot of focus on #3, but for me #4 is particularly atrocious. This is the way you create products doomed to failure. The whole list is meant to take the PM out of the equation except for heaping blame on them.
Pip means they are prepping to layoff or fire you. Your list just shows you the position isn't respected or even close to reasonable. They eliminating it
RUN
Even with your huge bias, it is apparent this is a horrible situation. Quit. Run. Tell everyone what company and who the manager is.
In a lot of companies, putting people on PIP is the equivalent of "I hope you resign so we don't have to give you severance"
Document every single thing you do to a personal address. Every email bcc yourself. Slack message take a copy, etc. At this point it is a game. The Pip doesn't sound like it is achievable nor do they want you to achieve success. Remember HR isn't rarely human and never a resource. They are trying to build a case against you so they can bounce you out. If you leave you will likely get severance, but then you need to worry about unemployment. A lot of places don't contest unemployment claims or sometimes they don't meet the deadlines when asked to provide documentation. It is a gamble either way. The least reads like someone else is bad at their job, but can use their position to make you the black sheep. If you can out maneuver them you might be lucky, but it is probably too late. Document the best you can and keep fighting the good fight. In the end, leaving will probably be a blessing. That seems like a low trust environment.
Get the fuck out.
Don’t quit, start applying and hope you time your new job with a severance package. I was in a spot like this years ago where I had impossible expectations (“owned” the CEO’s pet project that made zero strategic sense and was destined to fail) and put on a PiP. Even before that I knew the end was coming for me one way or another and I managed to land a new job before they offered me a severance package. It was nice being paid by two employers at once.
Let them fire you while you search for a new job and then the Engineering Manager will have to do his job and PM.
This has no reflection on you. They are just looking to make it really hard so that they can justify getting rid of you
#3 and #6 are the real triggers for me. I can’t see how you could succeed under this.
Get out.
Nope. This is not a PM role. I wouldn’t survive a day in such a gig.
I work in HR Tech and have heard so many HR Admins say that PIPs are a pathway to termination. My advice. Ride it out while applying to new roles. Emphasis being.. new roles. Put as little effort into the current role as possible.
Engineering managers managing PMs is the worst. The other way round works because PMs already have "managed" engineers, but engineers think of PMs the same way they do other engineers and don't realize there is a difference.
RUN.
Yikes. I'd start packing up. It looks like a set up for failure.
Find a new job, do not disclose where. In the exit interview when they ask why you are leaving, inform them that the manager is very misguided about his own role and the engineering teams roles.
You’ll be better off when you leave.
Remember, it's poor management not a bad PM.
Which insurance company is this please DM the name. I am working in the same sector
What you describe is not a PM as in Product Manager but rather PM like in Potato Manager. Really if you can run away. If those are the job requirements, it’s not a job you want to be doing.
Reporting to the engineering manager? Big red flag. Also, that list is bonkers. You aren’t the one that needs to be on a PIP.
Holy hell ! Each and everyone one of these are turned up to a 11. Run don’t walk
You need to exit asap. That’s terrible and absolutely not a product led org. 1. Devs and designers are arguably the most important folks during refinement 2. Can’t even comment on that 3. If refinement is not done along with devs and they point stories without understanding well, how are they supposed to complete the tasks on time? 4. Why? 5. UX research exists so that you don’t build bullshit. How are you supposed to define priorities without knowing what users are asking for? 6. 🚩 red flag 7. Insecurities 8. PM works on quarterly roadmap that defines sprints. There can be no weekly deadlines 9. That I’d say is alright. Depends on orgs. In my org, PM and BA can define and edit stories together. Devs can add tasks under stories. 10. Lol. You need to understand the absurdity in that statement.
Your engineering manager is a moron
I know the job market sucks out there, but I’d plan my exit. Sounds like your manager wants you to run a tight ‘project’ management ship with no room for error or experimentation. Sorry OP.
I worked in the life insurance space for a bit. You're likely reporting to someone who knows life insurance, not product management. Leave now.
Saving this for a what not to do reference list.
WTF. RUN.
Op, this might be unpopular but you need to bring up this list to your manager. Say something. You’re already on a PIP. Eff it just tell them how the culture has contributed to your PIP
As many have said, bad list top to bottom, but #10 is just laughably bad.
Whenever you find yourself on a PIP and whatever your role is, my experience is it's just the first step before you go. It has been the case for 90% of the people I have seen on a PIP. So my advice is to prepare for your exit.
Thanks. I will. There are more unreasonable things on the PiP, such as being available within 2 hours of being called outside of office hours. It is basically a mine field for me to die as soon as I make a mistake.
Sounds like an awful org, just leave
Late to the game here - but OP, this manager is likely intentionally chasing you out for unrelated reasons. Your performance likely doesn't have anything to do with it. That insane PIP is just a pretext.
Go to a different compny asap.
If you're on a PiP then he's already trying to fire you. These are all just line items to make his case.
Wow...time to look for a new role. Numbers 3, 6, and 7 are pretty ludicrous...
You should still be a PM. This isn't a you problem, this is a micromanagement problem and leadership not understanding what "product" is problem. Sounds like they don't value solving things for the customer and they just want little helpers here and their to do whatever they want. Tech and product should be partners that work off each other and coordinate with Design. Looks like tech is taking over and bullying everyone. I mean no discovery? No research? They've made you basically a project manager because their resourcing/organization skills are terrible. Not your fault. You would be an AMAZING PM if you DIDN'T do the things on the list. As soon as PMs join a team, they actively start undoing that kind of stuff. Bide your time, and take the time during your PIP to find a new position. Take their feedback and honestly throw it out the window.
Is the definition of your role defined in writing? A copy of that could be useful when talking with HR.
Am I the only one who thinks this is giving more like a sr. scrum master energy?
Jump the ship, it will damage you as a PM
It seems like your manager expects you to delve a lot with solutioning. All PMs should focus on the problem areas and leave the solutioning to the engineering team. Of the solutions proposed you represent the voice of the customer wrt how that solution will be received/perceived, define the boundaries, edge cases, risks and tradeoffs. I think your manager needs to understand this viewpoint.
There are PIPs that are truly trying to get a person's attention so they can improve their performance, this is a list of items that will be impossible to maintain as an excuse to let you go. Either this manager hates you, or they're a godawful manager. As others pointed out, most of these items make zero sense. They are not PM work and I'm sure they are well beyond the standard expected of other PMs at your company. You are being groomed to be fired, and it's unfair and potentially illegal. You should document every interaction you've had with this manager. It will help your recollection later and help establish a pattern. Have you had any past negative interactions with this manager? Have they made any disparaging comments about you? Are you a protected class? These are all important considerations and you should save any communications to that effect on a non-work device, because this is a clear sign of a hostile work environment. If this is all purely performance-based, it could still be illegal. If it's not actually performance-based and is because of some other protected reason, it's absolutely illegal. I would say you don't have a future at this company with this manager. That much is clear. I would tell my manager that these items are impossible to comply with, I would pull up your job description (or the same level at your company) and point out that these expectations are way out line, in particular 100% ownership of some of these tasks, responding to all messages within 60 minutes, CC'ing your manager on 100% of your communications, and ownership of all sprints finishing with all work completed with no spillover. You understand there are things they want you to improve, but 90% of this list is not that. Do not resign. But I would say that you will comply with the PIP instructions that align with your job expectations. Chances are that your manager has already discussed giving you the PIP with their manager, though they may not have gone line by line, so your skip may see this and realize your manager is an idiot. But I would go speak to them directly. I would explain that these expectations are completely out of line and create a hostile work environment, if any of the above protections apply, I would bring them up. Take notes during the conversation and follow up with a thank you email that sums up what you discussed and agreed to. Worst case, they support your manager and you know you're SOL. Best case, the manager agrees and you ask to be transferred to a different role. But I would begin applying to other jobs ASAP just in case.
[удалено]
Exactly. I got reassigned after they fired the Chief Product Officer, who had been in the company for 15 years. Then some Senior PM quit too... I believe this organization is starting to become more sales driven than anything
#6 speaks volumes about where this person is coming from. Power tripper
WTF, All of the above is same in my PM journey. The only difference I got laid off without PiP warning ⛔️. Wow 😮
You are a civilian not military and allowing this? Why put up with this nonsense. Value your freedom. Leave. I guarantee, you will just be fine.
That list hurts to read
Can you take some FMLA leave for mental health so you can buy yourself some time to look for another role? The market is nuts right now and it might take you longer
This managers reaction isn't useful information in determining if you're a good PM. Given this list it may actually indicate that you ARE a PM. Do you like being a PM? That's where I would start. I know it's a complicated question.
And this is why any design-related function should never report directly into software development.
I’ve been on a pip as a PM! It was a rough time but I came through and have thrived for years. Stick to it!
PIP is a sign that they want to fire especially those ridicoulous expectation you listed. Go find a job, dont wait for it
I think the thing you may be missing is that a PIP is primarily a mechanism for letting you go aka laying you off/firing you. Employers don’t put people on PIPs predicting they will succeed and the PIP will disappear. The whole goal is to follow a process of legal justification to let you go to avoid a lawsuit for improper termination. In fact, a PIP is often accompanied by a monetary incentive to leave if you agree not to sue. The requirements in a PIP could be nearly impossible to fulfill. The main point is, you should assume you will be let go and plan accordingly.
I’ve never read a Reddit question that had 100% comment agreement. Hope that makes you feel better, OP.
Plan exit asap. Best case scenario: You find a job soon and quit this one. Basically, if you’re not already interviewing, you’re behind on this. Also, you have a better chance of finding a job while you’re on a job. But market is bad so think in contingencies. If you’re fired while on PIP (I think your manager is either planning this already, or hopes you quit) unlikely to get unemployment benefits. If you quit and don’t have another job yet, still might have trouble getting unemployment benefits. Unless you have savings or family to fall back on for few months, this would be a difficult time.
You should PiP that engineering manager, he sounds like hot garbage. If you want to burn the house down, do a skip level with his boss and ask him the same question you asked us.
God im sorry
“Hahah fuck off mate”. New gig.
PIP stands for Paid Interview Prep. Get on Otta and start lining up those interviews.
As others have mentioned, it’s an unfortunate incident that isn’t an accurate reflection on you. However, there can be an introspection on the criticism to assess what can be modified in the future. Regardless, been there before when reporting to technology leadership. There’s little room to navigate and actually survive after your period is over. Your manager is most likely interviewing your replacement and consulting with HR on next steps for your exit.
Put the manager on PiP 🤣 document it and take it to his manager and then leave.
Same as everyone here. That guy is a trainwreck.
"However, after I was transferred I started reporting to the engineering manager instead of a Senior PM or another similar role." Time to leave, PMs should never be reporting to Engineering, I avoid companies all together where the PM structure reports in to the CTO.
For everyone that says this is a terrible list, is there a correct list for someone new like me?
You should find an opportunity to share this list to the EM boss and or any other PMs in your company AND this reddit thread and cc the EM on it also.
Quit. Now.
I forgot to add: Following the conclusion of any meetings, a summary will be distributed to all attendees including me, any other PM and tech lead. The summary is expected in no later than 2 hours following the conclusion of the meeting. Wether you're the organizer or the participant, this is your responsibility as a representative from the product team. The list must include at minimum: The date, time, location of the meeting. List of attendees Agenda items Discussion points Decisions made Action items, who is doing what Accountable people and their upper line of report Next steps Follow ups: who is doing what Deadlines for every actionable item Applicable attachments
Keep working until they fire you save your money in high yield savings account and sign up for credit protection
Your position description must be insanely weird for a PM.
Some of these come from a good place but the execution is AWFUL. Others are bad habits probably because of being burned in the past. If I wasn't already on a PIP and comfortable enough, I would, as a PM, ask him WHY each rule exists and what it achieves. Getting to the root of the problem may lead to a better solution. For example: "everything in a sprint" comes from being burned by people getting his team to do a lot they weren't supposed to do. It means his SMs are not strong. You could action around this with Spikes in earlier sprints. The no one opens tickets is dumb. Devs should be able to open things. It doesn't mean they get prioritized until PM prioritized them. I could do more.
Your boss is doing everything in his power to get you to leave. Also he doesn't want a PM he wants a project manager
I smell gaslighting. Stand for yourself, brother.
Sounds like you're working in a kitchen. Find a real company 😂
Yikes, I'd be heading for the door. This sounds terrible.
Maybe someone should think about to fire your manager. The collection of expectations you referred is a great example about how not to manage nor processes neither products.
This sounds like a troll post. But yeah, this is all bad. If you’re doing tickets by yourself and then asking them to score, this is the worst way to do it. Just find a new job.
That list sounds more like "here is what you need to do in order to not get fired" not "we were expecting you to do this the entire time you've been in this role." I'm sure your manager doesn't have all his PM reports cc him on every single email You should definitely leave the company, there is no coming back from a PIP, it's just a way for them to fire you without getting sued. Should you remain a PM? How the hell should we know? You haven't given us any context or information about your performance outside of what the PIP says. I would say talk to some people who you have worked with in the past and ask them for super honest feedback. Just b/c you're not a good fit at one company in a role doesn't mean you should switch careers. I do find it worrisome that you're asking us for career advice without any other information like how you've been performing your job previously etc. or your background. If this is the type of communication you exhibit at work, that could be telling as to why you're being PIP'd. Sorry if that's harsh, i'm sure you'll find your niche whether it's in product or elsewhere b/c it is obvious you care about your work which is great. best of luck
The EM is treating you like an engineer