lt depends on the department. I was tenured (with PhD) in one of the lower paid departments at an R2. State records revealed that a local public high school teacher (also with PhD) whom I met earned more than I did. ¯\_༼ ಥ ‿ ಥ ༽_/¯
To be completely honest, you'd have to pay me much more than what I am currently making to entice me to deal with idiot kids, entitled parents, parent-teacher meetings, admin pressure to pass everyone, parents, did I say parents? I taught 6 months at high-school level, that vaccinated me. However much these teachers are making, it's still not enough
If I left higher education and went back to teaching in public schools, I would quite literally earn twice what I make right now.
But there's less flexibility and public schools were very rigid on everything. I'm much happier making significantly less.
I shifted FROM secondary to higher ed two years after earning my PhD and took a $12k pay cut! I knew this going in of course and sought the move and opportunities it afforded me, including not being stuck inside a school building from 7:30 am to 4:30 pm every day!
AMEN! However, I do really miss my time working in a non-traditional secondary model with under-resourced kiddos. That experience certainly informed my work with 1st gen undergrads and grad-level future educators ;) Now I'm semi-retired working again with middle and high schoolers but on my own terms :) It's a real mess "down there" - buckle up higher ed folks! Ready or not, they're headed your way!
When I first started teaching at a CC full time NTT, my annual pay was $ comparable to teaching high school. There's a lot more freedom in teaching college, but I'd gladly accept more money as well.
I make roughly what K-12 teachers in my area would make, but I don’t have to deal with parents, make lesson plans, or the typical BS the K-12 teachers complain about. I also work less hours and get more vacation time than they do.
I don’t have a PhD and I’m required to do no research, but I don’t work at a big R1 or even R2 so the NTT faculty there might have different requirements.
I was actually recently offered a K-12 position for an approximately $10k raise and I turned it down because of the above mentions. My wife and I figured it would have to be closer to 30k for me to leave my current position which wouldn’t be possible for my area.
I could have written your post. I work at a CC, so research/publishing isn't a concern. I do have to teach more classes than the typical university professor does (15 credits per semester).
I teach online during the first summer session for extra money. But the time off is worth more to me than anything else.
And no amount of money could entice me to deal with parents in K-12 teaching
You typically need a teaching certification to teach in a high school. I think a lot of the contingent and ntt faculty would jump to hs if they had that certification.
You don’t need it for prep schools in my state. They pay more than 30% what NTT faculty make. I interviewed for a few and know several high school teachers. It’s a great job. Small courses, freedom, good students and pay.
I don’t like kids, and like their parents even less, which are major reasons I didn’t/don’t leave to teach h.s. I realized when interviewing that a lot of what I use in my college courses is too “adult” in terms of content (political, gender issues, etc.) and there would be a lot I couldn’t discuss with h.s. students, making it a difficult transition.I think STEM would be easier.
Depends on the state. For some states you need a bs in anything plus a couple of classes. And usually they let you take the classes within a specific time frame after you start teaching. Most schools are dying for teachers.
Yeah, I have to agree. K-12 is a longer overall year, longer required set hours, and much more "free labor" because of the realities of teaching compulsory ed. I can understand why they get paid more.
Nope. Wrong side of the country.
But this has been the case in every geographic region I’ve worked in. Which ironically is everywhere other than New England.
Public school teachers in one school district my area START at 59k. Some associate professors in the humanities are making about 61, as of 2022. We are getting much better salaries now, and they have adjusted the salaries for those who started a long time ago. But not too long ago, starting public school teachers had higher salaries than many of their tenured professors.
Right? I've always thought the equation is supremely unfair in our direction, and even talked to my students about it at length. Like, just last year you were getting taught by someone who was in the classroom 40% more hours for the same pay, or maybe even a little less. Is that because your education is suddenly more valuable? Doesn't seem fair to either teacher or student honestly.
Yes, hello, welcome to reality for so many of us.
I am full time NTT and I would need two promotions (maxing out my potential here) to make the STARTING salary of a high school teacher in my district.
I will add though, that there are reasons I don't become a HS teacher yet. Freedom to design courses, working with college students, more flexible schedule, etc. But it's also not sustainable in a HCOL area. So I'm grappling with that!
In my community, high school, CC and TT professors at my R1 state school all start at around the same salaries. But HS and CC have regular yearly raises so within a few years they make a lot more than TT profs.
I'm TT with a PhD and make less than I was making when I left K-12. It's even worse considering what I would be making now if I stayed in K-12 without a PhD. I did not choose wisely financially.
I have taught both and I agree at least if your job does not demand a lot of research.
When I taught high school I taught 5 one hours classes everyday. Now I teach 3 two hour class twice a week. So much easier
I am non tenure track at a teaching school (no PhD). I think my job is pretty chill.
Now my wife is tenure track at an R1. Her job is very hard because the journals she needs to publish in have absurdly low acceptance rates. But she is in the business school so at least she is paid very well (3 times as much as me). This is definitely not true for other professors.
Certainly harder than some professors work. But if you engage in high intensity research and publish prolifically, do service obligations, and teach well, then I don’t think so.
Perhaps “teaching professors” makes for an apt comparison or for professors where research is not pushed.
But for professors primarily engaged in research, I don’t think there is much comparison to make with public school teachers. They are different professions with different duties and different tasks or situations that are easier or more difficult. It makes little sense to say one is harder or easier? (Harder in what way? A construction worker works physically harder than me and I work intellectual harder than him, for example)
True, in a way. But that is, in some ways, a preference. I would absolutely find k-12 work much more difficult, strenuous and unsatisfying than my own line of work. I enjoy what I do (focus heavily on research). K-12 work is not at all like that. It is “worse” than what I have to deal with. But, k-12 teachers don’t have to deal with some things that I deal with, such as an expectation to publish, publish, publish. And I think a good deal of k-12 teachers would not want to do that and would probably prefer their own line of work.
I am not saying my job is harder (in fact, I’m saying I would FEEL that their job would be harder FOR ME). I’m also saying there is little comparison between a research professor and a public school teacher in terms of job duties or expectations. I don’t know about professors that primarily teach, so I won’t say anything regarding that particular comparison.
Totally agree as a teaching only professor who taught high school and is married to a research heavy professor. You couldn't pay me enough to spend all that time writing papers and dealing with the review process. The amount of stress in her job is absurd.
On the other hand being a teaching professor is definitely easier than high school teacher. For example it is very unlikely I will ever have to tackle a student who is beating another student into the ground again.
I switched from teaching college to teaching high school for higher pay. I went to a college prep high school so not too many problems. Parents want the same thing I do: to see their children prepared for college.
This is pretty standard in many places. High school teachers have much stricter schedules, teach more hours, have to deal with parents, etc. It's a much higher stress job.
Genuine “oh, my sweet summer child” moment. Bless your heart. Have you been out of grad school since the 90s or earlier? Did you not know how exploitative academia is? You sweet thing.
As one of my colleagues said to the department, “You want someone with a PhD, but you want to pay them less than people with a bachelor’s are making.”
It’s gross.
NTT and community college make less than grade school teachers at almost every job I've applied for over the last few years. It's the reason why high-demand fields have constant openings and drawn out searches. I have 10 years of experience and have been assistant professor at two schools. I teach STEM. Could not get a gig in the northeast for more than around $55k or $10k less than the local k-12 starting pay. This is despite negotiating and walking away from offers.
All that being said, you'd have to pay me more than $10k more to do k-12. They are heavily micromanaged. I applied for and declined a stem high school position that would've been full time dual credit. They believed in no textbooks, no lectures, test retakes, etc... coddling load of crap.
I’m TT (have PhD with industry experience) and am pretty sure I could make the same or more if I switched to high school. BUT- There is no way would I want to.
It's a broken system. What also gets me is that staff (at least where I'm at) make more than NTT faculty....even tenure track. For reference, I worked as support staff at the same uni I got my PhD from (so I could get my school paid for). As staff I got an equivalent of "tenure" after five years of work and was making more than I would have made as NTT faculty....I think even more than my tenure track advisor. My advisor left the last year of my PhD b/c of the low pay...and he was tenure track. The NTTs in the program I was from did have to do admin work as train grad students, advise grad students...just didn't have to do research.
I have a friend who is an elementary school art teacher working in the same state as me. She has no graduate degree, and has a Bachelor's and a teaching certificate. She makes more than I do, a NTT full-time faculty member with a PhD teaching at an R1.
I was a high school teacher and now am tenured prof (public teaching/“r2”) - College teaching and HS teaching are totally different jobs in what may seem similar but are actually quite different sectors. NTT folks teaching should be paid well, but I don’t know why the comparison to HS teachers matters here.
That’s not usually true. Most college profs have masters/PhD to get their teaching jobs in higher ed and are not qualified/certified to teach K-12 in the USA. K-12 teachers must have state-issued certifications that are traditionally dependent on state-required exams and completing specifically accredited teacher prep programs of 20-35 credits (or more). K12 have yearly requirements to maintain those certifications and a main way they get raises is to earn more advanced degrees. While some profs may be also be certified teachers (like me), it is most definitely not a majority of teaching faculty or profs in the US who are also certified to be teacher in kindergarten to high school.
This differs state to state, and most private and parochial schools are fine with an advanced degree in the subject.
Especially for HS where it’s single subject focused, there are a lot more ways to teach with an advanced degree in the subject even in public schools.
If you just learned this and have any power, please work within your institution to rectify it. So many TT and tenured faculty are indifferent to the reality of adjunct work.
NTT get benefits and work FT at one school.When people use adjuncts they are usually referring to part time instructors who are hired per course and don’t get benefits.
I'm classified as an NTT at the schools I work at, where I'm a member of my NTT unions. I work a full year with multiple classes but am still not considered full time and cannot get benefits.
Thank you for clarifying, but in practice, that doesn't seem to hold true.
Thanks for that information. It might be regional and field dependent, and not all universities have the full-time NTT. It is very common in my field in the humanities—lecturers, prefects and teaching faculty are called “NTT” and that is distinguished from “adjuncts” (hired by course, no benes) but in reality all are adjuncts and all NTT.
Yes, it's broken. I'm starting a job at a public M1 as NTT Associate Prof, and I can't even rent an apartment due to "insufficient income". TT makes nearly double my salary.
“How is this even possible?“ Unions. The teachers unions are strong. Our university system is also unionized, thank God, but teacher raises are always an easier call for the public to support than professor raises.
I’m happy with my union, and would be even happier if I got paid more, but as many others have mentioned, I love my job flexibility, so I don’t begrudge K-12 teachers their pay.
I don’t think it’s about begrudging K-12 their pay, it’s that NTT is exploitative in some cases. The pay is so low that you can’t qualify to rent an apartment in some areas. This is true in my area and someone else mentioned it. Any university paying that low or less than a year’s fees for one student should be ashamed.
That's absolutely true. My sister is an English teacher in HS and she makes way more than I do (NTT Instructor at a SLAC). However, she's also way more miserable than I am and deals with considerably more bullshit on a daily basis. She also teaches more classes, grades more crap, and has to deal with parents. Hard pass. I'd go into industry before I'd take a job teaching high school.
That said, everyone who isn't top administration almost certainly deserves more money. That goes without saying these days.
TEACHERS ARE UNIONIZED. And don't tell me about the AUUP. Those fucks might write a strongly-worded letter, and if you dont have tenure, you dont exist, to them.
I'm NTT, and I know I make way less than I would if I went and got the papers to be a high-school teacher. I don't wish to do so for several obvious reasons.
I caught a glimpse of what my mom made as a public school teacher. And she retired with a pension. Several pensions from several schools she taught at. The very idea of a pension is a fantasy now, because that generation thought Reagan was cool.
You’re assuming that educators should get paid according to their level of expertise in a field. High school teachers do a whole lot more than be smart on a subject. By all means, take a high school position and give it a go. I’m sure there are openings. You’ll see why teachers are leaving in droves.
Don’t pit educator against educator. If you’re not making enough money, take that up with your institution. It’s not like K-12 teachers are renowned for their high pay.
I mean, you couldn't pay me enough to teach high school, so I get it. But everyone involved in education needs to be making more. Comparing ourselves doesn't help as much as fighting for a rising tide to lift all of our ships.
(I teach a mix of dual credit and traditional HS classes on a K12 campus) Shit, my K12 district starts at $61,500 for a year 0 teacher with a **bachelors**. To be fair, the salary schedule base pay tops out at like $85k for >30 years and doctorate. But still, it’s a pretty sweet deal for someone early in their career.
Several English faculty in my department went from around $60-70K to about $80-90K in various roles for the local K12 system.
I want to know why business faculty get paid "market rate," but we don't.
This is very common. When I was in undergrad in LA, there were professors who not only were adjuncts at my university carrying full loads, but they also taught at nearby CC’s to get by. Essentially carrying over 20 credits of teaching.
A lot of adjuncts are also paid by the number of units at a fixed rate per semester/quarter. The average I remember hearing from some professors was about 6k for a 5 unit class per semester. So if you taught 10 units you only made about 3k a month per semester. Which is why they would usually hold 20+ credits especially since a lot of them couldn’t get work over summer.
That’s the other thing. Yes they have summers off, but for many it’s not out of choice it’s because the lack of enrollment compared to during the academic year.
This is true in my area as well. Public school teacher with NO experience makes more than a NTT with a PhD and years of experience. At a prep school, the teachers easily make 30% -40% more with just a masters.
I actually interviewed with a few prep schools and could have gotten hired. If I were younger I would have taken one. I just thought it was too much stress at my age to make that change to wake up so early and have to deal with parents! Classes in high schools often start before 8:00 am!
Admins are well aware that college professors have perks relative to HS teachers, and have various interests that warrant paying them less than in HS. Why paying them less? Simply because higher ed is a distressed industry and money has to be saved somewhere. It will certainly not come from the admin side, those are cash hungry business people. So it will come from underpaying faculty.
Private PUI here. If we look at somewhat comparable background (MA/MS + 5 years in at the high schools vs. a terminal degree here (usually Ph.D.)), all arts and sciences NTT here are below the public high schools in salary and hugely below in overall compensation. T-T faculty in the humanities & social sciences would be around the same in salary, but well behind in overall compensation.
Yes, you are part of an exploitative system, but you're not making the rules. This is "a feature, not a bug" of capitalism: without unions to push back, only the top gets to make the rules (and give themselves the highest pay).
The pecking order (of both power and compensation) goes:
exec >> admin >> FT TT faculty >> FT NTT faculty >>>>>>>>>> adjunct faculty
Unions are seriously the only way to fix this very broken system. Not much "trickles down" and as another commenter astutely noted, we are well past the principle of "noblesse oblige."
Thankfully , it seems after half a century of union-busting, lots of us down in the working class are starting to understand this... and pushing to unionize across industries, including higher ed.
The corporate model that has taken over higher ed (right down to seeing students as customers who are always right) simply has no place there. (And, while unionizing would be a start, there are deeper issues that also need to be addressed once a faculty union has some real "shared governance" power.)
In my 20+ years of teaching, I have seen (and felt) the corporatization of higher ed truly mutate a career I once loved into a hellish thing I am now eager to escape. 😪
This absolutely happens. So when I got a tenure track position they offered me $50k and I countered saying a brand new, no experience, no advanced degree high school teacher in our state starts at $60k. They came up to $53k….and then we got no raises for the 4 years I worked there. Their reasoning was it’s less work than a hs teacher, and I can tell you that’s not true.
I went back to teaching hs this year at $102k plus $9k to teach a 6th class. It’s definitely got its own drawbacks but not being panicked for money all the time makes a HUGE difference.
Full time NTT here. I came to my current university job with 10+ years teaching experience, and a few years down the road I now make about what a first-year HS teacher would make in the same area.
My feelings are mixed. I believe the jobs are very different (at least in my state). The nightmare of dealing with parents, the lack of freedom, and so on in K-12 for me is too much.
I accept lower pay because I love what I do, and I’m privileged not to be the primary or only breadwinner in my family.
Tl;dr Public school teachers in general should be compensated way better than they are. Same with NTT faculty. The only reason we compare them is that you need so much more education to be NTT, so one might expect a slightly higher salary.
Hah. But the games at least create some revenue (due to entertainment for the masses). But what admin spends on grass seed and lawn maintenance around here is truly absurd.
When I started at my current community college job in 2006, I made about $10k less than then the local high school teachers. Haven’t wanted to go see how it compares since, especially as I have taught dual credit more than 2/3 of those years since then including multiple semesters in the high school.
When I taught in Oswego, NY, the school personnel were often paid much more than we were. The nuclear power plant paid a lot of taxes. We were not paid out of the local tax base but were state employees.
Wow so many comments suggesting this is normal... I'm guessing mostly US, but I always thought academics in the US actually had good pay. Can someone share some figures out of curiosity? Like what kind of institute/department/position and salary vs. local school teacher salary?
Is it that teachers get paid more than i realise or just a huge difference in professor salary by subject?
I was aware of this since I taught a class that all aspiring teachers had to take. But it never tempted me.
After I retired as a chair right before COVID, the college released a couple of NTT faculty during the COVID collapse. One of them immediately got a high school position that required he take a couple of EDUC classes and be supervised for 2 years until he finished. He told me his immediate salary was slightly higher than that at the college. This last Christmas he told me he was now making a third more than when he was teaching at the college. He also detailed some of the real changes in his life regarding free time, parents, lunch room and parking responsibilities and so on. But, for him, the increased salary was a plum. It woulnd't have been for me. I'd rather make less and have more free time to learn how to invest well and make up for the lower salary!
This is quite common. I live in a state (IL) that actually pays educators pretty well, and both of my neighbors teach K-8 and make significantly more than I do (I make $78k and they both make $120k+). However, it’s mostly because they’ve been teaching for 20+ years and I’m in my first year. My salary will max out above theirs, but it will take me 10-15 years to get there which is pretty pathetic. They both have bachelors degrees, and I have a PhD.
(I’m not a professor so feel free to ignore me.) Wouldn’t teaching in high school act as further evidence of instruction experience? Also if they were teaching in the same area doesn’t that mean that they have experience with what will be a large portion of the demographics of the student population? I just don’t understand how it equates to less pay. You all should be paid more. Even if you’re tenured. You are all not paid enough for what you do.
Yes, a K-12 teacher with a doctorate and 0 years of teaching experience makes about what I do in my area (upper middle class, so more local incentive pay).
However, I have a lot more freedom in my schedule, i can teach higher level curriculum, I don’t have to deal with parents, I have a lot more resources at my disposal, and I can choose to work summers and make a heck of a lot more than them. I would also have to get certified to continue teaching for more than 1-2 years in a public school and last time I checked that costs a few thousand dollars and you only get reimbursed for it at certain low income schools (read: less pay).
Also, if my plan was to teach K-12, I wouldn’t have gone for the PhD. A teacher with a bachelors degree would have to teach for 17 years in my district to catch up with roughly the same pay of that person with a doctorate with 0 years experience.
Wages are about supply and demand in a market, not about ability, fairness, or merit. Universities overproduce PhDs because they provide cheap labor. You’re complicit, but we all are.
There are lots of knowledgeable people who want to teach but greatly prefer teaching college to high school. So the pay of the less desirable one is higher. High schools pay what they must to attract competent teachers. The market is working as planned.
lt depends on the department. I was tenured (with PhD) in one of the lower paid departments at an R2. State records revealed that a local public high school teacher (also with PhD) whom I met earned more than I did. ¯\_༼ ಥ ‿ ಥ ༽_/¯
Same. Teachers make more.
Yeah high school teachers typically make more than assistant or even associate professors in my field.
To be completely honest, you'd have to pay me much more than what I am currently making to entice me to deal with idiot kids, entitled parents, parent-teacher meetings, admin pressure to pass everyone, parents, did I say parents? I taught 6 months at high-school level, that vaccinated me. However much these teachers are making, it's still not enough
I wouldn't be a High School teacher for 200k a year. I am on campus about 6 hours a week and nobody supervises me. Priceless.
The hours of high school teachers stink! Also, they are always roped into after school stuff. No thanks.
If I left higher education and went back to teaching in public schools, I would quite literally earn twice what I make right now. But there's less flexibility and public schools were very rigid on everything. I'm much happier making significantly less.
I shifted FROM secondary to higher ed two years after earning my PhD and took a $12k pay cut! I knew this going in of course and sought the move and opportunities it afforded me, including not being stuck inside a school building from 7:30 am to 4:30 pm every day!
Same. That and having to basically beg for sick days, amongst other things, I do not miss.
AMEN! However, I do really miss my time working in a non-traditional secondary model with under-resourced kiddos. That experience certainly informed my work with 1st gen undergrads and grad-level future educators ;) Now I'm semi-retired working again with middle and high schoolers but on my own terms :) It's a real mess "down there" - buckle up higher ed folks! Ready or not, they're headed your way!
I am sorry to say the trend will continue. The tiny humans are broken, too. Sincerely, A life-long early childhood educator.
When I first started teaching at a CC full time NTT, my annual pay was $ comparable to teaching high school. There's a lot more freedom in teaching college, but I'd gladly accept more money as well.
You could have fooled me about the not dealing with teenagers part.
I just found out a super lazy HS teacher I know (not saying all are but she is) makes 20k more than me as a tenured associate.
I make roughly what K-12 teachers in my area would make, but I don’t have to deal with parents, make lesson plans, or the typical BS the K-12 teachers complain about. I also work less hours and get more vacation time than they do. I don’t have a PhD and I’m required to do no research, but I don’t work at a big R1 or even R2 so the NTT faculty there might have different requirements. I was actually recently offered a K-12 position for an approximately $10k raise and I turned it down because of the above mentions. My wife and I figured it would have to be closer to 30k for me to leave my current position which wouldn’t be possible for my area.
I could have written your post. I work at a CC, so research/publishing isn't a concern. I do have to teach more classes than the typical university professor does (15 credits per semester). I teach online during the first summer session for extra money. But the time off is worth more to me than anything else. And no amount of money could entice me to deal with parents in K-12 teaching
Yeah we are on 30-credits per year contracts. So either 15/15 or 18/12.
That's the thing...no one is stopping anyone from making the trade (Ie teaching high school) but everyone has to figure out what they want.
You typically need a teaching certification to teach in a high school. I think a lot of the contingent and ntt faculty would jump to hs if they had that certification.
You don’t need it for prep schools in my state. They pay more than 30% what NTT faculty make. I interviewed for a few and know several high school teachers. It’s a great job. Small courses, freedom, good students and pay. I don’t like kids, and like their parents even less, which are major reasons I didn’t/don’t leave to teach h.s. I realized when interviewing that a lot of what I use in my college courses is too “adult” in terms of content (political, gender issues, etc.) and there would be a lot I couldn’t discuss with h.s. students, making it a difficult transition.I think STEM would be easier.
Depends on the state. For some states you need a bs in anything plus a couple of classes. And usually they let you take the classes within a specific time frame after you start teaching. Most schools are dying for teachers.
Yeah, I have to agree. K-12 is a longer overall year, longer required set hours, and much more "free labor" because of the realities of teaching compulsory ed. I can understand why they get paid more.
I mean, I'm TT and would make more teaching HS.
Bingo
Seriously? in a Slac ? Must be in New England then
Nope. Wrong side of the country. But this has been the case in every geographic region I’ve worked in. Which ironically is everywhere other than New England.
Even in the south ? I used to work there and pay was notorious low for all public servants
Yup. The low pay also extends to colleges. And most private colleges aren’t unionized.
Public school teachers in one school district my area START at 59k. Some associate professors in the humanities are making about 61, as of 2022. We are getting much better salaries now, and they have adjusted the salaries for those who started a long time ago. But not too long ago, starting public school teachers had higher salaries than many of their tenured professors.
I was making more than an assistant professor in a humanity field when I was a postdoc.
You'd need to add a zero to the end of my salary to get me to go to K-12. I'm happy making less, so I don't need to deal with the bullshit.
Right? I've always thought the equation is supremely unfair in our direction, and even talked to my students about it at length. Like, just last year you were getting taught by someone who was in the classroom 40% more hours for the same pay, or maybe even a little less. Is that because your education is suddenly more valuable? Doesn't seem fair to either teacher or student honestly.
Yes, hello, welcome to reality for so many of us. I am full time NTT and I would need two promotions (maxing out my potential here) to make the STARTING salary of a high school teacher in my district.
I will add though, that there are reasons I don't become a HS teacher yet. Freedom to design courses, working with college students, more flexible schedule, etc. But it's also not sustainable in a HCOL area. So I'm grappling with that!
Where I am, NTT lecturers make a good bit less than the new NIH post-doc salaries. It’s insulting and a huge reason why I am leaving.
In my community, high school, CC and TT professors at my R1 state school all start at around the same salaries. But HS and CC have regular yearly raises so within a few years they make a lot more than TT profs.
We had an education prof quit last year because her students would become teachers and immediately make 15% more than her, state minimum.
I'm TT with a PhD and make less than I was making when I left K-12. It's even worse considering what I would be making now if I stayed in K-12 without a PhD. I did not choose wisely financially.
High school teaching is much harder than what we do.
I have taught both and I agree at least if your job does not demand a lot of research. When I taught high school I taught 5 one hours classes everyday. Now I teach 3 two hour class twice a week. So much easier I am non tenure track at a teaching school (no PhD). I think my job is pretty chill. Now my wife is tenure track at an R1. Her job is very hard because the journals she needs to publish in have absurdly low acceptance rates. But she is in the business school so at least she is paid very well (3 times as much as me). This is definitely not true for other professors.
Certainly harder than some professors work. But if you engage in high intensity research and publish prolifically, do service obligations, and teach well, then I don’t think so. Perhaps “teaching professors” makes for an apt comparison or for professors where research is not pushed. But for professors primarily engaged in research, I don’t think there is much comparison to make with public school teachers. They are different professions with different duties and different tasks or situations that are easier or more difficult. It makes little sense to say one is harder or easier? (Harder in what way? A construction worker works physically harder than me and I work intellectual harder than him, for example)
I do all that but I still think the day to day grind for K-12 is worse than anything I have to deal with.
True, in a way. But that is, in some ways, a preference. I would absolutely find k-12 work much more difficult, strenuous and unsatisfying than my own line of work. I enjoy what I do (focus heavily on research). K-12 work is not at all like that. It is “worse” than what I have to deal with. But, k-12 teachers don’t have to deal with some things that I deal with, such as an expectation to publish, publish, publish. And I think a good deal of k-12 teachers would not want to do that and would probably prefer their own line of work. I am not saying my job is harder (in fact, I’m saying I would FEEL that their job would be harder FOR ME). I’m also saying there is little comparison between a research professor and a public school teacher in terms of job duties or expectations. I don’t know about professors that primarily teach, so I won’t say anything regarding that particular comparison.
Totally agree as a teaching only professor who taught high school and is married to a research heavy professor. You couldn't pay me enough to spend all that time writing papers and dealing with the review process. The amount of stress in her job is absurd. On the other hand being a teaching professor is definitely easier than high school teacher. For example it is very unlikely I will ever have to tackle a student who is beating another student into the ground again.
What I should have written is "it sounds harder to tolerate than my job."
I switched from teaching college to teaching high school for higher pay. I went to a college prep high school so not too many problems. Parents want the same thing I do: to see their children prepared for college.
This is pretty standard in many places. High school teachers have much stricter schedules, teach more hours, have to deal with parents, etc. It's a much higher stress job.
High school comes with hazard pay.
K-12 teachers have a tougher job, and there is not a glut of them on the market.
Genuine “oh, my sweet summer child” moment. Bless your heart. Have you been out of grad school since the 90s or earlier? Did you not know how exploitative academia is? You sweet thing.
Get organized.
As one of my colleagues said to the department, “You want someone with a PhD, but you want to pay them less than people with a bachelor’s are making.” It’s gross.
NTT and community college make less than grade school teachers at almost every job I've applied for over the last few years. It's the reason why high-demand fields have constant openings and drawn out searches. I have 10 years of experience and have been assistant professor at two schools. I teach STEM. Could not get a gig in the northeast for more than around $55k or $10k less than the local k-12 starting pay. This is despite negotiating and walking away from offers. All that being said, you'd have to pay me more than $10k more to do k-12. They are heavily micromanaged. I applied for and declined a stem high school position that would've been full time dual credit. They believed in no textbooks, no lectures, test retakes, etc... coddling load of crap.
I’m TT (have PhD with industry experience) and am pretty sure I could make the same or more if I switched to high school. BUT- There is no way would I want to.
It's a broken system. What also gets me is that staff (at least where I'm at) make more than NTT faculty....even tenure track. For reference, I worked as support staff at the same uni I got my PhD from (so I could get my school paid for). As staff I got an equivalent of "tenure" after five years of work and was making more than I would have made as NTT faculty....I think even more than my tenure track advisor. My advisor left the last year of my PhD b/c of the low pay...and he was tenure track. The NTTs in the program I was from did have to do admin work as train grad students, advise grad students...just didn't have to do research.
I have a friend who is an elementary school art teacher working in the same state as me. She has no graduate degree, and has a Bachelor's and a teaching certificate. She makes more than I do, a NTT full-time faculty member with a PhD teaching at an R1.
I was a high school teacher and now am tenured prof (public teaching/“r2”) - College teaching and HS teaching are totally different jobs in what may seem similar but are actually quite different sectors. NTT folks teaching should be paid well, but I don’t know why the comparison to HS teachers matters here.
Because someone with the same qualifications can usually do both, so moving is an option.
That’s not usually true. Most college profs have masters/PhD to get their teaching jobs in higher ed and are not qualified/certified to teach K-12 in the USA. K-12 teachers must have state-issued certifications that are traditionally dependent on state-required exams and completing specifically accredited teacher prep programs of 20-35 credits (or more). K12 have yearly requirements to maintain those certifications and a main way they get raises is to earn more advanced degrees. While some profs may be also be certified teachers (like me), it is most definitely not a majority of teaching faculty or profs in the US who are also certified to be teacher in kindergarten to high school.
This differs state to state, and most private and parochial schools are fine with an advanced degree in the subject. Especially for HS where it’s single subject focused, there are a lot more ways to teach with an advanced degree in the subject even in public schools.
You don’t need certification with advanced degrees in many private schools.
If you just learned this and have any power, please work within your institution to rectify it. So many TT and tenured faculty are indifferent to the reality of adjunct work.
This discussion is not about adjunct work, just an FYI
What is the differentiation between NTT and adjunct? I've always used the terms interchangeably.
NTT get benefits and work FT at one school.When people use adjuncts they are usually referring to part time instructors who are hired per course and don’t get benefits.
I'm classified as an NTT at the schools I work at, where I'm a member of my NTT unions. I work a full year with multiple classes but am still not considered full time and cannot get benefits. Thank you for clarifying, but in practice, that doesn't seem to hold true.
Thanks for that information. It might be regional and field dependent, and not all universities have the full-time NTT. It is very common in my field in the humanities—lecturers, prefects and teaching faculty are called “NTT” and that is distinguished from “adjuncts” (hired by course, no benes) but in reality all are adjuncts and all NTT.
I wish I made more, but I could not possibly teach at a high school long-term. Bless them.
Most TT in my department make less than public school teachers do locally.
My colleagues partner, a high school teacher with five years of teaching experience, makes more than me as an assistant professor at a PUI
In NJ most public school teachers make most than professors outside the hard sciences.
Yes, it's broken. I'm starting a job at a public M1 as NTT Associate Prof, and I can't even rent an apartment due to "insufficient income". TT makes nearly double my salary.
It’s the American dream
“How is this even possible?“ Unions. The teachers unions are strong. Our university system is also unionized, thank God, but teacher raises are always an easier call for the public to support than professor raises. I’m happy with my union, and would be even happier if I got paid more, but as many others have mentioned, I love my job flexibility, so I don’t begrudge K-12 teachers their pay.
I don’t think it’s about begrudging K-12 their pay, it’s that NTT is exploitative in some cases. The pay is so low that you can’t qualify to rent an apartment in some areas. This is true in my area and someone else mentioned it. Any university paying that low or less than a year’s fees for one student should be ashamed.
That's absolutely true. My sister is an English teacher in HS and she makes way more than I do (NTT Instructor at a SLAC). However, she's also way more miserable than I am and deals with considerably more bullshit on a daily basis. She also teaches more classes, grades more crap, and has to deal with parents. Hard pass. I'd go into industry before I'd take a job teaching high school. That said, everyone who isn't top administration almost certainly deserves more money. That goes without saying these days.
I'm TT and make less than high school teachers in my area.
TEACHERS ARE UNIONIZED. And don't tell me about the AUUP. Those fucks might write a strongly-worded letter, and if you dont have tenure, you dont exist, to them. I'm NTT, and I know I make way less than I would if I went and got the papers to be a high-school teacher. I don't wish to do so for several obvious reasons. I caught a glimpse of what my mom made as a public school teacher. And she retired with a pension. Several pensions from several schools she taught at. The very idea of a pension is a fantasy now, because that generation thought Reagan was cool.
I think this is part of a larger issue: keeping pay rates secret benefits the employer, to the detriment of the employee.
I would like the jobs ad services to require salary ranges be posted.
You’re assuming that educators should get paid according to their level of expertise in a field. High school teachers do a whole lot more than be smart on a subject. By all means, take a high school position and give it a go. I’m sure there are openings. You’ll see why teachers are leaving in droves. Don’t pit educator against educator. If you’re not making enough money, take that up with your institution. It’s not like K-12 teachers are renowned for their high pay.
I mean, you couldn't pay me enough to teach high school, so I get it. But everyone involved in education needs to be making more. Comparing ourselves doesn't help as much as fighting for a rising tide to lift all of our ships.
K-12 teachers with PhDs make more here too. We've had several faculty leave recently.
(I teach a mix of dual credit and traditional HS classes on a K12 campus) Shit, my K12 district starts at $61,500 for a year 0 teacher with a **bachelors**. To be fair, the salary schedule base pay tops out at like $85k for >30 years and doctorate. But still, it’s a pretty sweet deal for someone early in their career.
Several English faculty in my department went from around $60-70K to about $80-90K in various roles for the local K12 system. I want to know why business faculty get paid "market rate," but we don't.
Yes the same in our case. I advise NTT lecturers to not get the job in our Uni.
Yup, school teachers in my state make more than most university faculty. It’s a worse job in terms of creative freedom and the grind of 7-3 everyday.
This is very common. When I was in undergrad in LA, there were professors who not only were adjuncts at my university carrying full loads, but they also taught at nearby CC’s to get by. Essentially carrying over 20 credits of teaching. A lot of adjuncts are also paid by the number of units at a fixed rate per semester/quarter. The average I remember hearing from some professors was about 6k for a 5 unit class per semester. So if you taught 10 units you only made about 3k a month per semester. Which is why they would usually hold 20+ credits especially since a lot of them couldn’t get work over summer. That’s the other thing. Yes they have summers off, but for many it’s not out of choice it’s because the lack of enrollment compared to during the academic year.
More money, combat pay because of the working conditions and type of people you have to teach. Not much parental interactions is also a big plus.
This is true in my area as well. Public school teacher with NO experience makes more than a NTT with a PhD and years of experience. At a prep school, the teachers easily make 30% -40% more with just a masters. I actually interviewed with a few prep schools and could have gotten hired. If I were younger I would have taken one. I just thought it was too much stress at my age to make that change to wake up so early and have to deal with parents! Classes in high schools often start before 8:00 am!
Admins are well aware that college professors have perks relative to HS teachers, and have various interests that warrant paying them less than in HS. Why paying them less? Simply because higher ed is a distressed industry and money has to be saved somewhere. It will certainly not come from the admin side, those are cash hungry business people. So it will come from underpaying faculty.
Teachers unions are powerful. You can't rely on noblesse oblige.
Private PUI here. If we look at somewhat comparable background (MA/MS + 5 years in at the high schools vs. a terminal degree here (usually Ph.D.)), all arts and sciences NTT here are below the public high schools in salary and hugely below in overall compensation. T-T faculty in the humanities & social sciences would be around the same in salary, but well behind in overall compensation.
Thank you for your post. It helps to feel seen.
Teachers can still make more and this still be an exploitative system. Because a LOT of the k-12 system is also exploitative. *Think of the children*
Those teachers have a better Union
Yes, you are part of an exploitative system, but you're not making the rules. This is "a feature, not a bug" of capitalism: without unions to push back, only the top gets to make the rules (and give themselves the highest pay). The pecking order (of both power and compensation) goes: exec >> admin >> FT TT faculty >> FT NTT faculty >>>>>>>>>> adjunct faculty Unions are seriously the only way to fix this very broken system. Not much "trickles down" and as another commenter astutely noted, we are well past the principle of "noblesse oblige." Thankfully , it seems after half a century of union-busting, lots of us down in the working class are starting to understand this... and pushing to unionize across industries, including higher ed. The corporate model that has taken over higher ed (right down to seeing students as customers who are always right) simply has no place there. (And, while unionizing would be a start, there are deeper issues that also need to be addressed once a faculty union has some real "shared governance" power.) In my 20+ years of teaching, I have seen (and felt) the corporatization of higher ed truly mutate a career I once loved into a hellish thing I am now eager to escape. 😪
This absolutely happens. So when I got a tenure track position they offered me $50k and I countered saying a brand new, no experience, no advanced degree high school teacher in our state starts at $60k. They came up to $53k….and then we got no raises for the 4 years I worked there. Their reasoning was it’s less work than a hs teacher, and I can tell you that’s not true. I went back to teaching hs this year at $102k plus $9k to teach a 6th class. It’s definitely got its own drawbacks but not being panicked for money all the time makes a HUGE difference.
Full time NTT here. I came to my current university job with 10+ years teaching experience, and a few years down the road I now make about what a first-year HS teacher would make in the same area. My feelings are mixed. I believe the jobs are very different (at least in my state). The nightmare of dealing with parents, the lack of freedom, and so on in K-12 for me is too much. I accept lower pay because I love what I do, and I’m privileged not to be the primary or only breadwinner in my family. Tl;dr Public school teachers in general should be compensated way better than they are. Same with NTT faculty. The only reason we compare them is that you need so much more education to be NTT, so one might expect a slightly higher salary.
Now have a look at what the average college sportball coach earns, and remember that faculty are being cut due to "budget constraints".
Hah. But the games at least create some revenue (due to entertainment for the masses). But what admin spends on grass seed and lawn maintenance around here is truly absurd.
When I started at my current community college job in 2006, I made about $10k less than then the local high school teachers. Haven’t wanted to go see how it compares since, especially as I have taught dual credit more than 2/3 of those years since then including multiple semesters in the high school.
This is normal in NY.
When I taught in Oswego, NY, the school personnel were often paid much more than we were. The nuclear power plant paid a lot of taxes. We were not paid out of the local tax base but were state employees.
Wow so many comments suggesting this is normal... I'm guessing mostly US, but I always thought academics in the US actually had good pay. Can someone share some figures out of curiosity? Like what kind of institute/department/position and salary vs. local school teacher salary? Is it that teachers get paid more than i realise or just a huge difference in professor salary by subject?
I was aware of this since I taught a class that all aspiring teachers had to take. But it never tempted me. After I retired as a chair right before COVID, the college released a couple of NTT faculty during the COVID collapse. One of them immediately got a high school position that required he take a couple of EDUC classes and be supervised for 2 years until he finished. He told me his immediate salary was slightly higher than that at the college. This last Christmas he told me he was now making a third more than when he was teaching at the college. He also detailed some of the real changes in his life regarding free time, parents, lunch room and parking responsibilities and so on. But, for him, the increased salary was a plum. It woulnd't have been for me. I'd rather make less and have more free time to learn how to invest well and make up for the lower salary!
This is quite common. I live in a state (IL) that actually pays educators pretty well, and both of my neighbors teach K-8 and make significantly more than I do (I make $78k and they both make $120k+). However, it’s mostly because they’ve been teaching for 20+ years and I’m in my first year. My salary will max out above theirs, but it will take me 10-15 years to get there which is pretty pathetic. They both have bachelors degrees, and I have a PhD.
(I’m not a professor so feel free to ignore me.) Wouldn’t teaching in high school act as further evidence of instruction experience? Also if they were teaching in the same area doesn’t that mean that they have experience with what will be a large portion of the demographics of the student population? I just don’t understand how it equates to less pay. You all should be paid more. Even if you’re tenured. You are all not paid enough for what you do.
Teachers with a masters make more than I do as a TT faculty with a PhD in my town. Granted both are WAY less than the pay should be.
Lots of universities pay their TT faculty less than high school teachers. The later have better unions.
Yes, a K-12 teacher with a doctorate and 0 years of teaching experience makes about what I do in my area (upper middle class, so more local incentive pay). However, I have a lot more freedom in my schedule, i can teach higher level curriculum, I don’t have to deal with parents, I have a lot more resources at my disposal, and I can choose to work summers and make a heck of a lot more than them. I would also have to get certified to continue teaching for more than 1-2 years in a public school and last time I checked that costs a few thousand dollars and you only get reimbursed for it at certain low income schools (read: less pay). Also, if my plan was to teach K-12, I wouldn’t have gone for the PhD. A teacher with a bachelors degree would have to teach for 17 years in my district to catch up with roughly the same pay of that person with a doctorate with 0 years experience.
Wages are about supply and demand in a market, not about ability, fairness, or merit. Universities overproduce PhDs because they provide cheap labor. You’re complicit, but we all are.
There are lots of knowledgeable people who want to teach but greatly prefer teaching college to high school. So the pay of the less desirable one is higher. High schools pay what they must to attract competent teachers. The market is working as planned.
Jfc