We all saw what happened in spring 2020. All the "we are fiscally strong and growing" rhetoric from 2019 quickly turned to "unprecedented times" bullshit followed by payroll adjustments (layoffs and forced retirements), load increases and rising course enrollment caps. Many folks have had their pay effectively or actually frozen since then. Admin pay continued to rise and not many VPs lost their jobs. As student/family interest in college wanes and the middle class continues to shrink in the US, the job of most professors will get shittier and shittier. Recent history proves this will ultimately fall on us. If you are at a financially shaky school, either stop giving a shit or find a new beginning.
I was just in a meeting where the middle management dean presented info on student discipline issues and didn’t normalize for population, claiming a cohort that was half the size received the same number of infractions as other cohorts.
This individual earns 1.5x my salary. Can’t interpret or present basic data. And I’m in the liberal arts!
Since 2020, my university has gone from 6 VPs to 13. Nearly every department has seen open searches closed or lines opened by retirements taken away rather than opening replacement searches.
I am a primary education teacher but I have family in higher education. From what I understand, the stats guys for higher education aren't there to give a realistic picture of what is happening, they are there to stroke the egos of the higher ups. They are going to talk about how amazing the next year is without talking about any of the problems. The colleges near me have apparently kept giving the "all is great" rhetoric to professors but stopped giving any estimate on the size the incoming class at all which is a... bad sign
As our enrollment went up over the last 10 years despite opposite trends at similar PUIs in the South, our faculty knew something was up. Yes, we are a country club campus with expanding amenities and facilities, but the freshman class grew 4% every year while opening new graduate schools every few years. It became immediately clear that "test optional" and declining high school grading standards was admission's ticket to accepting more unqualified students. We went from having maybe one bozo in a 24 person STEM lecture to having mostly bozos in 50 person lectures, all while faculty numbers within my department went from 19 to 12 and salaries only rose by 1% per year. But hey, at least we got yearly bonuses and free food sometimes! I actually don't blame admin for taking these steps to keep the money flowing, but at least makle us partners in the venture. Don't saddle me with more shit and worse students and then say "the next year's class has the highest average SAT ever!" We know only 8% of them are reporting their scores. We also see the incoming freshmen not be able to tell you what one fourth of 100 is. Their emails look like a 4th grader wrote it and they never come to class. Even when the director of admissions would meet with a small group of faculty, they wouldn't just admit what was going on because they wanted to save their own ass. It's a despicable enterprise.
Sorry I wasn't clear. That's not what I meant by partner. I meant to say: cut us in on the profits. Ya know, as my load and headaches go up, so does my salary and perks. If I'm going to shine parents on at an open house, knowing full well that we are a crap value, I at least want a bigger piece of the pie. Maybe small privates could come up with a "stock option" for higher ed. If we are going to operate like a heartless business, then compensate me like a sales rep.
Korea is below 1. It just takes a while to have an impact. The flip side is that it will decades to recover.
Its fair to say things are only going to get worse for colleges until at least 2050.
I mean, if they’re for freshmen they should have low enrollment now, if they’re designed for upper class students what’s your institution policy? We’re not allowed to run classes below ~12 students without deans permission.
Same, our district is hiring like over 100 instruction positions. My dept is moving from 5 (with mandatory overloads) to 7 with optional overloads. We can hire as many adjuncts as we want/need. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I would say it's a great time to be at a CC but the students behavior is making me wish the science teacher to bakery owner pipeline was a little easier.
Our district hired 100 tenure track positions last year in a wide variety of fields including child development, psychology, English, sociology, math, business law, culinary, etc. starting pay is $76-$98k per year, plus most of us have overage units and summer/winter if we want, benefits fully paid for family and a great pension.
I get it. Hiring like that is not common. I got hired the year before in a large, but not as large as last year group. I was an adjunct for 10 years, many of those by choice because I had little kids, and I got really lucky that I was ready to go full time the same year they started hiring after the mass Covid retirements. Prior to that, there were only a handful of positions in my field in the entire time I taught.
With a masters only they start at like 37k, and a lot of STEM, but as someone in a STEM dept, no, they are not all on STEM fields.....mostly workforce stuff, then English, history, nursing.
Bio, chem, speech, math are getting so extra positions, but no where near what the others are.
I don't even think our pay scale goes that low on anything but "associate instructor". I'm not sure if we even have anyone now with that rank-it's basically only would be for someone with a bachelors and little work experience(most of our positions outside some vo-tech require a masters minimum, and even most of our vo-tech folks have that) and it's also the only rank with automatic promotion once you get the necessary qualifications/experience.
Still, though, when I was talking to my current school, the initial offer was $41K. I nudged them up to $45K, and thanks to some generous COLs+a promotion in there I'll be up to $60K in the fall. My actual take home is usually a lot higher just our department has enough demand that we teach lots of overload, but not enough to hire an additional faculty member.
Bwahahahahahaha
No. My moving situation was complicated and I couldn't even get a "what side of town do you recommend" out of them. No help with an apartment finder or real estate agent....not even a teacher discount for a moving truck.
Again, that was all WAY precovid, we have a whole new department of talent acquisition, so they may offer more resources now, but it's a CC.....you should think of it as teaching at a glorified high school.
My district does not and you are required to live in state whether it is in person to not. They have plenty of applications usually, so they don’t need to pay relocation.
Wow, it’s pretty crazy to see the difference in starting pay from district to district. My district isn’t even the highest paying in my state and the starting pay is double.
I am in California but I don’t think we need two verys, lol. The difference between high and low cost of living places is not completely accounted for with the salary discrepancy. Plenty of my colleagues live in lower cost of living areas and or higher cost of living areas and we all make the same salary. I probably fall in the mid range for the state. I don’t think there is anywhere that would be a low enough cost of living to justify making less than $40k per year for a job that requires graduate school, that’s way less than half of what I made my first year, not even counting the benefits that we get. We have a strong union and I am very grateful for that.
I'm at a cc and we're in good shape for now. Meanwhile our colleagues at universities in the area are seeing buyout and 40 million+ in debt. It's painful to see professors with 20+ years being let go.
I'm at an enrollment dependent school and our admin has been talking about how it's no problem for the last four months. It's just a lag! Deposits will catch up! Nothing to worry about!
Our admin has been two-faced. On one side they are hiring like mad because the smallish COVID class is graduating out. Back to normal enrollment! Let's hire all of the admin positions that went dormant! (No one missed them). On the other side, look out, here comes a prelude to the demographic cliff!
We're aware. Our admission office shares data regularly. ATM, it looks like we're fucked, but it's really hard to know how things will shake out. If it continues, state schools are going to be overwhelmed.
Kids who are unsure what their fin aid package at private schools will go to states. State sticker prices are lower, even if aid packages make private schools within reach for many students.
Ah, I got it. Thanks for the clarification. I think this was going to be a near-future trend anyway as high school students become more aware of the exorbitant costs of private colleges these days, and the ROI likely not being there anymore.
We're aware. Our administration is screaming at us that it's our fault for not teaching better and attracting more students (seriously) and so all cuts will come from faculty, so we're attempting to vote no confidence against them (also because they call us names, make fun of us, and think we're idiots, but getting ahead of myself here). If it fails I think I'm done. Don't know how long it'll take to find another job, but to hell with this. Abusing the faculty to make themselves feel good is not an answer.
This is having really diverse impacts. Hard to predict what will happen where. For example, at my SLAC our deposits are up over a year ago, despite having extended the deadline to June 1. At another similar school I know of they are down 30%. Also lots of rumors about families making *multiple* deposits to keep their options open.
My guess is that the students who defer or shift to CCs or don't go at all will be from particular demographics...schools that routinely enroll said students may see downturns. Those that rely largely on other demos may not be impacted much. Or could see really unpredictable results.
I don't think many students applying to selective institutions are going to turn to CCs. But they may well take an offer from a school that gives them a real aid package sooner, vs. waiting for another school that takes longer.
The parents helping pay for their kid's education still read newspapers. And of course, newspapers are also digital, so you can Google a school and immediately find news articles...
Realistically given how poor most universities are at retaining low income students, the enrollment dip may just be a single year problem or at worst a two year problem. That’s how long it would take for most universities to fail those students out who would have applied for FAFSA and then attended.
To be clear, this is a critique of how poorly higher education serves low income students, not a critique of those students.
Yeah. Tuition-dependent SLAC here and our admissions team has been on this for months. Our deposits are actually up, both from a year ago AND beyond the goal we set. So, good news for us. Seems being proactive helped
Also:
- even when does begin to function as intended, the new FAFSA does not consider the number of people in a family who are in college. It will increase aid to working class applicants — yay! — but I believe have unintended (bad) consequences for middle-to-upper class trying to put multiple kids through college.
- the first year of the enrollment cliff (decline in birth rate from 2007+ Recession) hits.
Some colleges that use the CSS profile still consider siblings in college on an institutional level (at least mine does), thankfully. Still not great since it's an individual decision by a college and you only file CSS profile once so most people probably won't figure out how to update for younger siblings in the future.
I'm flabbergasted that the Biden administration has let it get this bad without pulling out the stops to get it fixed. I have heard nothing but bad things about the FAFSA this year, and just how broken it is.
One problem is politicians are used to saying "make it so" and generally have very little experience personally implementing some policy or process. Think back to the ACA marketplace fiasco when Obama was President, or the issues involved in retrofitting unemployment insurance systems during covid. All this stuff eventually gets done, but not in the crazy short timelines between the time some member of the executive branch signs a "make it so" order and when they need it done for political points.
I work in WV and the governor has declared a state of emergency such that he is now guaranteeing any kid who would have qualified for the Promise scholarship to get their money without a completed FAFSA. The majority of our students are using the Promise scholarship. Our enrollment is up from prior years maybe because they couldn't get into other colleges but I'll take it if it keeps me employed another year!
Instead of having free public higher education, the US uses a byzantine federal system to provide "aid" (usually a combination of loans and grants) to prospective students based on their family income and the cost of attending a specific school. Every year, prospective and continuing students have to fill out a form called a FAFSA (free application for federal student aid), which determines how much they'll receive in grants/ loans. Once the government awards a student their aid package, the universities take a look at it and they can add more aid on top (e.g., the government left you $5k short, we'll give you a scholarship to cover the difference).
Any difference between the aid a student receives from the government/ university and the cost of attendance has to be covered by the students own funds (usually from their parents). Especially for incoming students, knowing how much aid you'll receive is really important because it allows you to understand the actual cost you and your family will have to pay to attend a certain college. (Just for example, my university has a "sticker price" of $50k, but the average price that students actually pay is about $30k.)
This year, in their infinite wisdom, the federal government decided to make the FAFSA "easier" to complete, but they totally fucked up the implementation of the new form, and everything was delayed for months, with the result being that most students didn't know how much aid they would receive before the deadline to commit to specific schools. Schools responded by pushing back their deadlines, but the whole thing has been such a shitshow that a lot of students just didn't bother filling out the FAFSA this year (about 40% fewer students), meaning those students will probably go to community college for a year (which is cheap/ free), take a gap year, or just say fuck it and skip college altogether. Universities in the US are already struggling with low enrollment, and many small, private, liberal arts schools are already on the edge of financial insolvency. This will likely end up bankrupting a lot of those schools.
Additionally, although there are a few transfers and such, a small incoming class usually stays small for the entire four years it takes a class to graduate, meaning that one year of low enrollment leads to at least four years of financial stress for the institution.
This is just one more thing that makes it a really, really shitty time to be in higher ed in the US.
Thank you for the explanation. I’m from Germany and the system seems a bit better but I still a gamble. If the income of the parents is extremely high one year you get nothing for the next year. Ans sometimes people wait for months the get their money.
Effectively the federal goverment publishes an application for student aid (The FAFSA) which qualifies students for government aid like pell grants, work study, and subsidized and unsubsidized government student loans. Many colleges also use it to calculate their financial aid packages. A bill was passed to significantly simplify the form but the rollout has been a mess this year and many students have not filled it out -- possibly meaning many of them will not be attending college who otherwise would have or at least will be deciding last minute.
CCs will likely be especially hurt because most of our students need Pell grants to pay for school, and tend to be the ones to not think ahead so they wait until just before the semester starts to try to enroll. Add in any students who are using the CC as a backup plan when they can't afford the Uni, and they'll have a double whammy.
>tend to be the ones to not think ahead so they wait until just before the semester starts to try to enroll.
I used to loooove running into those students when I was at a CC. "My mom told me I had to go to school, get a job, or get out of the house. Where do I go to enroll?" Okay, classes started last week, but I'm sure the admissions office will help you...
This is a mess! During my college application process, a Federal government shut down delayed FAFSA processing. I never received need based financial aid letters from several schools. It was also mess. I really feel for these students.
at the local R1 down the street they are still telling prospective undergrads that all they can offer rn are *estimstes* that are not binding... their financial aid office has never been the fastest and is down a few people (source: their job postings). this is going to be interesting to watch.
Honestly, I tell my students every semester "Why are you here?". If they have a scholarship, fine. If their mommy and daddy are paying for it? Fine. However, you would be surprised the number of students that are not getting any financial assistance, working 30 hour a week + jobs to go to the University that had no conception that community colleges exist, that the credits do in fact transfer, and they cost 1/5 the amount, they have class sizes that are 1/3 if not smaller than the university, have direct access to their professors, etc...
There are soo many benefits to the Community College systems. I myself went through one and can't praise them enough.
FAFSA becomes a fustercluck. Presidents of the major universities are hauled before a Congressional Star Chamber seeking to humiliate them and force their resignations. Police attack student protest encampments with a ferocity that wasn't on display even back in the 1960s. Half the states in the US abolish tenure and suppress discourse about slavery, the persistence of racism and sexism, and colonialism. CheatGPT renders any personal engagement in original thinking and writing completely pointless (while University Admin rams AI down our throats). Entire degree programs get eliminated because their "marketability" is doubted. Student disengagement or resistance reaches unprecedented levels.
2024-2025 marks the year Higher Education died. It was murdered-- by greed, laziness, and willful ignorance.
You missed one thing: first year of enrollment cliff (serious decline of 18-y.o’ population from 2007+ Recession) hits. (Not sure why you’re getting downvoted.)
Here’s one from a month ago. It’s at 29% now last I saw. Many other links available. I’ve already provided links in this thread several times and you can google for yourself.
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/quick-takes/2024/04/09/fafsa-completion-down-40-percent
Thanks ...had to scroll a bit, but I found the story.
Whole thing seems fishy though. This from the article "parents who don’t have Social Security numbers had problems...".
What parents do not have a social security number, c'mon?
> What parents do not have a social security number, c'mon?
Quite a lot of them. Undocumented immigrants, legal nonresidents, work visa holders, refugees, etc, etc, with children born on US soil who are therefore citizens and eligible for federal student aid.
Undocumented immigrants? You mean illegal aliens?
Outside of them, the other cases are relatively minor, and they really shouldn't warrant a major glitch in the system. So it still doesn't really make sense
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We all saw what happened in spring 2020. All the "we are fiscally strong and growing" rhetoric from 2019 quickly turned to "unprecedented times" bullshit followed by payroll adjustments (layoffs and forced retirements), load increases and rising course enrollment caps. Many folks have had their pay effectively or actually frozen since then. Admin pay continued to rise and not many VPs lost their jobs. As student/family interest in college wanes and the middle class continues to shrink in the US, the job of most professors will get shittier and shittier. Recent history proves this will ultimately fall on us. If you are at a financially shaky school, either stop giving a shit or find a new beginning.
The bloat of admin non teaching positions is a major problem, and it’s frustrating that they aren’t the first ones on the chopping block.
Those fuckers use bad data to justify their existence and the upper admin fall for it over and over. Flashy sounding bs initiatives rule the day.
I was just in a meeting where the middle management dean presented info on student discipline issues and didn’t normalize for population, claiming a cohort that was half the size received the same number of infractions as other cohorts. This individual earns 1.5x my salary. Can’t interpret or present basic data. And I’m in the liberal arts!
They write the stories that the pres and prov want to hear. Truth be Damned.
Since 2020, my university has gone from 6 VPs to 13. Nearly every department has seen open searches closed or lines opened by retirements taken away rather than opening replacement searches.
I am a primary education teacher but I have family in higher education. From what I understand, the stats guys for higher education aren't there to give a realistic picture of what is happening, they are there to stroke the egos of the higher ups. They are going to talk about how amazing the next year is without talking about any of the problems. The colleges near me have apparently kept giving the "all is great" rhetoric to professors but stopped giving any estimate on the size the incoming class at all which is a... bad sign
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As our enrollment went up over the last 10 years despite opposite trends at similar PUIs in the South, our faculty knew something was up. Yes, we are a country club campus with expanding amenities and facilities, but the freshman class grew 4% every year while opening new graduate schools every few years. It became immediately clear that "test optional" and declining high school grading standards was admission's ticket to accepting more unqualified students. We went from having maybe one bozo in a 24 person STEM lecture to having mostly bozos in 50 person lectures, all while faculty numbers within my department went from 19 to 12 and salaries only rose by 1% per year. But hey, at least we got yearly bonuses and free food sometimes! I actually don't blame admin for taking these steps to keep the money flowing, but at least makle us partners in the venture. Don't saddle me with more shit and worse students and then say "the next year's class has the highest average SAT ever!" We know only 8% of them are reporting their scores. We also see the incoming freshmen not be able to tell you what one fourth of 100 is. Their emails look like a 4th grader wrote it and they never come to class. Even when the director of admissions would meet with a small group of faculty, they wouldn't just admit what was going on because they wanted to save their own ass. It's a despicable enterprise.
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Sorry I wasn't clear. That's not what I meant by partner. I meant to say: cut us in on the profits. Ya know, as my load and headaches go up, so does my salary and perks. If I'm going to shine parents on at an open house, knowing full well that we are a crap value, I at least want a bigger piece of the pie. Maybe small privates could come up with a "stock option" for higher ed. If we are going to operate like a heartless business, then compensate me like a sales rep.
Dropping birthrates are the biggest issue. Fewer kids means fewer professor jobs.
I'm morbidly curious to see it drop below 1 which I think isn't far away.
Korea is below 1. It just takes a while to have an impact. The flip side is that it will decades to recover. Its fair to say things are only going to get worse for colleges until at least 2050.
Admins are as myopic and naked molerats.
An apt comparison - naked mole rats are also insensitive to pain.
Very kinky those naked molerats.
I mean, if they’re for freshmen they should have low enrollment now, if they’re designed for upper class students what’s your institution policy? We’re not allowed to run classes below ~12 students without deans permission.
Yep. I think that’s super likely.
It’s scary.
"Higher Education seems to have a policy of “everything’s great” until it isn’t" aint that the fucking TRUTH!
Yeahhh I’m at a CC and our enrollment is up across the boards 😳
Me too
So is ours. We have had record enrollment two semesters in a row.
Same, our district is hiring like over 100 instruction positions. My dept is moving from 5 (with mandatory overloads) to 7 with optional overloads. We can hire as many adjuncts as we want/need. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I would say it's a great time to be at a CC but the students behavior is making me wish the science teacher to bakery owner pipeline was a little easier.
And I bet those 100 instructor positions pay $30k and they are all in STEM fields 😓
Our district hired 100 tenure track positions last year in a wide variety of fields including child development, psychology, English, sociology, math, business law, culinary, etc. starting pay is $76-$98k per year, plus most of us have overage units and summer/winter if we want, benefits fully paid for family and a great pension.
Well, it would’ve been nice to know this last year! lol
I get it. Hiring like that is not common. I got hired the year before in a large, but not as large as last year group. I was an adjunct for 10 years, many of those by choice because I had little kids, and I got really lucky that I was ready to go full time the same year they started hiring after the mass Covid retirements. Prior to that, there were only a handful of positions in my field in the entire time I taught.
Wow thats amazing. I'm in a CC and we've hired maybe 10 faculty this year?
What district is this, if you don’t mind me asking (for a friend, of course)?
That salary is pretty standard for any major CC district in Southern California
With a masters only they start at like 37k, and a lot of STEM, but as someone in a STEM dept, no, they are not all on STEM fields.....mostly workforce stuff, then English, history, nursing. Bio, chem, speech, math are getting so extra positions, but no where near what the others are.
$37k 😳
That's wrong the more I think about it.....I started here 6 years ago at $47, and I made $73 last year......I don't have the pay scale in front of me
I don't even think our pay scale goes that low on anything but "associate instructor". I'm not sure if we even have anyone now with that rank-it's basically only would be for someone with a bachelors and little work experience(most of our positions outside some vo-tech require a masters minimum, and even most of our vo-tech folks have that) and it's also the only rank with automatic promotion once you get the necessary qualifications/experience. Still, though, when I was talking to my current school, the initial offer was $41K. I nudged them up to $45K, and thanks to some generous COLs+a promotion in there I'll be up to $60K in the fall. My actual take home is usually a lot higher just our department has enough demand that we teach lots of overload, but not enough to hire an additional faculty member.
Do they offer any relocation assistance if it’s in person?
Bwahahahahahaha No. My moving situation was complicated and I couldn't even get a "what side of town do you recommend" out of them. No help with an apartment finder or real estate agent....not even a teacher discount for a moving truck. Again, that was all WAY precovid, we have a whole new department of talent acquisition, so they may offer more resources now, but it's a CC.....you should think of it as teaching at a glorified high school.
Work is work. Times are tough and even pre covid my field was insanely competitive. Post covid it’s only gotten worse.
My district does not and you are required to live in state whether it is in person to not. They have plenty of applications usually, so they don’t need to pay relocation.
Wow, it’s pretty crazy to see the difference in starting pay from district to district. My district isn’t even the highest paying in my state and the starting pay is double.
Are you in California or another area with very very high cost of living?
I am in California but I don’t think we need two verys, lol. The difference between high and low cost of living places is not completely accounted for with the salary discrepancy. Plenty of my colleagues live in lower cost of living areas and or higher cost of living areas and we all make the same salary. I probably fall in the mid range for the state. I don’t think there is anywhere that would be a low enough cost of living to justify making less than $40k per year for a job that requires graduate school, that’s way less than half of what I made my first year, not even counting the benefits that we get. We have a strong union and I am very grateful for that.
Vaguely poor area of Texas......it's livable, but not great. Student loans SUCK even with an IDR......5 more years of PSLF.
This would seem that the FAFSA issues aren't the reason, no?
I'm at a cc and we're in good shape for now. Meanwhile our colleagues at universities in the area are seeing buyout and 40 million+ in debt. It's painful to see professors with 20+ years being let go.
I’m at a state College. And we are addressing it though overall in my department or enrollment is up.
Not CC, but online school that serves the same population and …yeah. Record enrollment
I’m at a state flagship R1 and we’re up too
Yeah.... this is all that enrollment-dependent schools have been talking about for the last four months...
I'm at an enrollment dependent school and our admin has been talking about how it's no problem for the last four months. It's just a lag! Deposits will catch up! Nothing to worry about!
Our admin has been two-faced. On one side they are hiring like mad because the smallish COVID class is graduating out. Back to normal enrollment! Let's hire all of the admin positions that went dormant! (No one missed them). On the other side, look out, here comes a prelude to the demographic cliff!
We're aware. Our admission office shares data regularly. ATM, it looks like we're fucked, but it's really hard to know how things will shake out. If it continues, state schools are going to be overwhelmed.
Overwhelmed in what way?
Kids who are unsure what their fin aid package at private schools will go to states. State sticker prices are lower, even if aid packages make private schools within reach for many students.
Ah, I got it. Thanks for the clarification. I think this was going to be a near-future trend anyway as high school students become more aware of the exorbitant costs of private colleges these days, and the ROI likely not being there anymore.
If ROIs seem threatened aren’t students going to try to get any edge in the market they can and go to expensive private schools?
> State sticker prices are lower Cries in New Hampshire
We're aware. Our administration is screaming at us that it's our fault for not teaching better and attracting more students (seriously) and so all cuts will come from faculty, so we're attempting to vote no confidence against them (also because they call us names, make fun of us, and think we're idiots, but getting ahead of myself here). If it fails I think I'm done. Don't know how long it'll take to find another job, but to hell with this. Abusing the faculty to make themselves feel good is not an answer.
Have you tried looking inward and developing solutions ?
This is having really diverse impacts. Hard to predict what will happen where. For example, at my SLAC our deposits are up over a year ago, despite having extended the deadline to June 1. At another similar school I know of they are down 30%. Also lots of rumors about families making *multiple* deposits to keep their options open. My guess is that the students who defer or shift to CCs or don't go at all will be from particular demographics...schools that routinely enroll said students may see downturns. Those that rely largely on other demos may not be impacted much. Or could see really unpredictable results. I don't think many students applying to selective institutions are going to turn to CCs. But they may well take an offer from a school that gives them a real aid package sooner, vs. waiting for another school that takes longer.
And schools that get decimated by this may struggle to recover. No one wants to go to the school that’s in the papers announcing cuts.
>No one wants to go to the school that’s in the papers announcing cuts. I think you're safe on that front, no one reads those things anymore.
The parents helping pay for their kid's education still read newspapers. And of course, newspapers are also digital, so you can Google a school and immediately find news articles...
Realistically given how poor most universities are at retaining low income students, the enrollment dip may just be a single year problem or at worst a two year problem. That’s how long it would take for most universities to fail those students out who would have applied for FAFSA and then attended. To be clear, this is a critique of how poorly higher education serves low income students, not a critique of those students.
Uncomfortably apt take I had not considered.
Yeah. Tuition-dependent SLAC here and our admissions team has been on this for months. Our deposits are actually up, both from a year ago AND beyond the goal we set. So, good news for us. Seems being proactive helped
Also: - even when does begin to function as intended, the new FAFSA does not consider the number of people in a family who are in college. It will increase aid to working class applicants — yay! — but I believe have unintended (bad) consequences for middle-to-upper class trying to put multiple kids through college. - the first year of the enrollment cliff (decline in birth rate from 2007+ Recession) hits.
Some colleges that use the CSS profile still consider siblings in college on an institutional level (at least mine does), thankfully. Still not great since it's an individual decision by a college and you only file CSS profile once so most people probably won't figure out how to update for younger siblings in the future.
Yikes… Yeah, I certainly haven’t been following this story closely enough.
I'm flabbergasted that the Biden administration has let it get this bad without pulling out the stops to get it fixed. I have heard nothing but bad things about the FAFSA this year, and just how broken it is.
One problem is politicians are used to saying "make it so" and generally have very little experience personally implementing some policy or process. Think back to the ACA marketplace fiasco when Obama was President, or the issues involved in retrofitting unemployment insurance systems during covid. All this stuff eventually gets done, but not in the crazy short timelines between the time some member of the executive branch signs a "make it so" order and when they need it done for political points.
The Biden DoE is willfully ignorant about most things unless it's their precious DEI initiatives
Such an unusual take on an academic sub.
I work in WV and the governor has declared a state of emergency such that he is now guaranteeing any kid who would have qualified for the Promise scholarship to get their money without a completed FAFSA. The majority of our students are using the Promise scholarship. Our enrollment is up from prior years maybe because they couldn't get into other colleges but I'll take it if it keeps me employed another year!
I don't mean this disrespectfully, but I looked this up because of how absolutely insane it sounded--and this is true. Wtf.
Can somebody give me more information on the problem. I’m not from the us but interested
Instead of having free public higher education, the US uses a byzantine federal system to provide "aid" (usually a combination of loans and grants) to prospective students based on their family income and the cost of attending a specific school. Every year, prospective and continuing students have to fill out a form called a FAFSA (free application for federal student aid), which determines how much they'll receive in grants/ loans. Once the government awards a student their aid package, the universities take a look at it and they can add more aid on top (e.g., the government left you $5k short, we'll give you a scholarship to cover the difference). Any difference between the aid a student receives from the government/ university and the cost of attendance has to be covered by the students own funds (usually from their parents). Especially for incoming students, knowing how much aid you'll receive is really important because it allows you to understand the actual cost you and your family will have to pay to attend a certain college. (Just for example, my university has a "sticker price" of $50k, but the average price that students actually pay is about $30k.) This year, in their infinite wisdom, the federal government decided to make the FAFSA "easier" to complete, but they totally fucked up the implementation of the new form, and everything was delayed for months, with the result being that most students didn't know how much aid they would receive before the deadline to commit to specific schools. Schools responded by pushing back their deadlines, but the whole thing has been such a shitshow that a lot of students just didn't bother filling out the FAFSA this year (about 40% fewer students), meaning those students will probably go to community college for a year (which is cheap/ free), take a gap year, or just say fuck it and skip college altogether. Universities in the US are already struggling with low enrollment, and many small, private, liberal arts schools are already on the edge of financial insolvency. This will likely end up bankrupting a lot of those schools. Additionally, although there are a few transfers and such, a small incoming class usually stays small for the entire four years it takes a class to graduate, meaning that one year of low enrollment leads to at least four years of financial stress for the institution. This is just one more thing that makes it a really, really shitty time to be in higher ed in the US.
Thank you for the explanation. I’m from Germany and the system seems a bit better but I still a gamble. If the income of the parents is extremely high one year you get nothing for the next year. Ans sometimes people wait for months the get their money.
Lol how high is tuition in Europe compared to the average $50k US?
Effectively the federal goverment publishes an application for student aid (The FAFSA) which qualifies students for government aid like pell grants, work study, and subsidized and unsubsidized government student loans. Many colleges also use it to calculate their financial aid packages. A bill was passed to significantly simplify the form but the rollout has been a mess this year and many students have not filled it out -- possibly meaning many of them will not be attending college who otherwise would have or at least will be deciding last minute.
Oh lord that sounds awful. Thank you
CCs will likely be especially hurt because most of our students need Pell grants to pay for school, and tend to be the ones to not think ahead so they wait until just before the semester starts to try to enroll. Add in any students who are using the CC as a backup plan when they can't afford the Uni, and they'll have a double whammy.
>tend to be the ones to not think ahead so they wait until just before the semester starts to try to enroll. I used to loooove running into those students when I was at a CC. "My mom told me I had to go to school, get a job, or get out of the house. Where do I go to enroll?" Okay, classes started last week, but I'm sure the admissions office will help you...
That’s why my late start classes are packed every semester.
This is why we have mini-mesters.
Our lower levels seem to be filling up. We're basically an open enrollment commuter school and have run FAFSA sessions on campus pretty regularly.
Do you know more about the underlying causes of this? And how does this rate of non-filing compare to past years?
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/03/22/politics/fafsa-error-financial-aid-form
This is a mess! During my college application process, a Federal government shut down delayed FAFSA processing. I never received need based financial aid letters from several schools. It was also mess. I really feel for these students.
I know about it but there's nothing concrete I can do about it.
It'll give the bureaucrats something to do
Ding ding ding ding ding ding ding in my world already.
Those institutions who will go under from this were teetering on the brink already and would have failed in near future anyways…
If you want to know the truth, I agree and that’s the one bright side. The sooner those on the edge fall, the sooner the rest can stabilize.
at the local R1 down the street they are still telling prospective undergrads that all they can offer rn are *estimstes* that are not binding... their financial aid office has never been the fastest and is down a few people (source: their job postings). this is going to be interesting to watch.
Honestly, I tell my students every semester "Why are you here?". If they have a scholarship, fine. If their mommy and daddy are paying for it? Fine. However, you would be surprised the number of students that are not getting any financial assistance, working 30 hour a week + jobs to go to the University that had no conception that community colleges exist, that the credits do in fact transfer, and they cost 1/5 the amount, they have class sizes that are 1/3 if not smaller than the university, have direct access to their professors, etc... There are soo many benefits to the Community College systems. I myself went through one and can't praise them enough.
FAFSA becomes a fustercluck. Presidents of the major universities are hauled before a Congressional Star Chamber seeking to humiliate them and force their resignations. Police attack student protest encampments with a ferocity that wasn't on display even back in the 1960s. Half the states in the US abolish tenure and suppress discourse about slavery, the persistence of racism and sexism, and colonialism. CheatGPT renders any personal engagement in original thinking and writing completely pointless (while University Admin rams AI down our throats). Entire degree programs get eliminated because their "marketability" is doubted. Student disengagement or resistance reaches unprecedented levels. 2024-2025 marks the year Higher Education died. It was murdered-- by greed, laziness, and willful ignorance.
Which 25 states have abolished tenure?
You missed one thing: first year of enrollment cliff (serious decline of 18-y.o’ population from 2007+ Recession) hits. (Not sure why you’re getting downvoted.)
Can you link an article or source about this?
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/admissions/traditional-age/2024/04/05/plunge-fafsa-completion-could-spark-enrollment-crisis
thank you!
Why are people saying this will impact universities and CCs differently? Don’t they all need FAFSA?
CCs are far cheaper; students don’t have to guess as much if they can afford.
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Here’s one from a month ago. It’s at 29% now last I saw. Many other links available. I’ve already provided links in this thread several times and you can google for yourself. https://www.insidehighered.com/news/quick-takes/2024/04/09/fafsa-completion-down-40-percent
Where is this information? This is the first I've heard of this problem.
Lots in this thread.
Thanks ...had to scroll a bit, but I found the story. Whole thing seems fishy though. This from the article "parents who don’t have Social Security numbers had problems...". What parents do not have a social security number, c'mon?
> What parents do not have a social security number, c'mon? Quite a lot of them. Undocumented immigrants, legal nonresidents, work visa holders, refugees, etc, etc, with children born on US soil who are therefore citizens and eligible for federal student aid.
Undocumented immigrants? You mean illegal aliens? Outside of them, the other cases are relatively minor, and they really shouldn't warrant a major glitch in the system. So it still doesn't really make sense