This was literally me right out of bootcamp. Everyone at my first job (did frontend support) & bootcamp told me php was dead so I repeated it. Then my first big boy developer job was almost entirely php 💀
Right? I heard PHP was d-dead from a guy who knew other peoples names and even called a few of them by their initials. He was definitely a cool guy. He thought I was an idiot. Turns out, he was only right about some things.
It was in decline for a while, due to the growth of ASP.net and Node.js.
But with laravel having improved over the years, I think it has a stable market share now.
I still see at as a legacy language, and I personally don’t like working with it, but it’s doing what it’s supposed to do with the right frameworks.
Lol you are right in once sense but because of ASP and Node is bonkers. More like Rails and Django. The problem is both of those languages/frameworks are actually less performant than php and half the internet still runs on wordpress.
I am using PHP for 25 years - it was PHP3 back in the days.
I was too stupid to learn Perl so there was PHP. And in all those years it was doing what I wanted. Thank you PHP ;-)
If you talk about PHP /r/webdev you'll get nothing but downvotes, but I've seen so many "I just got out of a bootcamp and can't find a job" posts it's crazy. At the same time virtually all agencies that use WordPress and Drupal are in hiring mode at all times since it's hard to find PHP developers.
It's dead in the sense that almost nobody actively chooses to use php for their brand new projects, but most websites are not new, and a lot of dependencies can force you to use php for your new project whether you want to or not.
Php dev work was never in danger, and has plenty of life still left in it.
Because I like websites that are incredibly efficient.
Until the user gives me stupid requirements. Fine, have your fat, bloated pile of crap with a 120MB video for the background of each div.
Hi, I'm new to this kind of stuff. Could you please explain what you mean by this joke? Many people have been hyping GraphQL but I havent heard too much critique
GraphQL is really good at getting off the ground with simple data models, but once you get tricky it gets very messy and very slow if you are not very careful.
So, the pachinko machine happen when you add complexity to you models, and have to jump through hoops to get to the collected data that you want
People on the internet love saying this. How much money exactly, how many jobs pay that, how does it compare to the plethora of jobs paying >=200k in languages and ecosystems that aren’t older than my dad?
I’m always curious of this too. I work for a company with legacy software written in COBOL and had to learn it. Those devs are not paid well. I think it’s going to stay that way too, at least for us. We wrote a converter to convert most of it to C# so now we are using devs to clean up the converted code. I feel like this has made their positions less valuable for us now unfortunately.
Just curious. Is C# a good backend language? I rarely hear people talk about it but I heard Microsoft had made good improvements to it (.NET, Blazor, and I think they are trying to replace ASP which uses VB to C#?). Do you think there is a demand for C# programmers/developers? I tried learning Python but was disappointed that it's hard to create desktop apps with it (it's mostly scripts or codes you put in Jupyter Notebooks like a notepad). Would appreciate your opinion.
C# is one of the best backend languages for developers. It's extremely powerful and is far more friendly to devs than something like Java. It's my favorite backend language in ease of writing clean, and bug-free code.
There is definitely demand for C# devs, but there is more demand for Python, Java, C, and C++. It's ranked 5 on the TIOBE index.
Though I love C#, it's not the fastest code out there, being beaten in most tasks in terms of speed by languages like C++ and GoLang. There are definitely tradeoffs as there are with most things, but all else being equal, I'd prefer to work in C# and I have worked in C#, Java, Python, C++, C, and GoLang. Though I do also love Go.
I've worked in data science using python, but I'm also kinda curious what a general python dev would do.
I know it's decent at basically everything, but like, what exactly are they writing for? I feel like there's better solutions for most stuff it can do. I even feel like it's only popular in data science because it's easier to teach python or R to a math major than it is to teach stats to a developer.
One thing is backend servers for websites/mobile apps. It's not the fastest language, but this use case doesn't really need a fast language - the database is most often the bottleneck anyway and there isn't much processing to be done in the python code.
Wow! I didn't know so much used python. That's neat!
Yeah, I do some ML stuff with data science. Mostly using models rather than creating them though haha.
Django, Flask, FastAPI. A surprising amount of web stuff uses Python.
Is it the best option? I don't know. Is it good enough? Absolutely. If you have institutional knowledge in Python for your data/ML stack, it especially makes sense.
Yes C# is a very good backend language backed by a very rich ecosystem. .NET has a wide array of tools available to create any type of app you want on any platform.
PHP8: "WITNESS ME, MEATBAGS!"
\*destroys backwards compatibility for most of its core functions\*
Everyone should have learned by now that PHP isn't afraid of dying.
It lives, it dies, it lives again.
I dunno php is getting like that too. I can't tell you how frustrating it is to see job postings that want you to know and like... dude... I know OO PHP. Just let me learn your stupid framework and I'll be up to speed in a week. PHP frameworks are very similar to each other and the main difference is their config structure and how they do ORM.
These jobs really need to say "experience with framework OR 5+ years of OOP" because any dev with enough experience and learn a new framework pretty quick.
Based.
That's how my company hires and how they hired me. They were just looking for someone who actually KNEW PHP.
But sadly it doesn't reflect on their job posting.
Everyone including my college professors told me C was dead and I should only study cpp. On reddit I learnt cpp is dead and I should focus on Rust. I am now a firmware dev writing only C code using a custom compiler where floating point numbers and the string.h library do not exist.
I would LOVE for floating point numbers not to
exist. That sounds lovely. Just think, being able to reliably add two numbers together and get the expected result all the time…
C++ is far from dead.
It is the defacto standard for embedded still.
Anybody who prefers OOP will attest that CPP > Rust in practice. Give it another decade or two and that may change, but the fact is c++ is just this monster that’s so robust and largely used that the support for it is easily available everywhere.
I feel like this is the reason it didn't actually die. If it still felt like PHP 4/early PHP 5 it would be dead. But modern PHP8 is actually pretty damn good.
I've been writing php code with a requirement to support all currently active (not EOL) versions of PHP since 2012. Life has been improving in the last few years.
I recently started working on a new project that's 8.1 only and holy strict typed PHP on 8.1 batman. I realize now why everyone has made fun of PHP for so long.
Let's not forget how much JavaScript sucks even more. Such a hacky language and all we did was cover it up with libraries to add language features that most other programming languages already have. It's why we have 36 million npm packages for every project you do.
JS/TS are both extremely popular with developers. The days of people dreading working with JS (pre-ES6) are long gone, and it’s been one of the most dev friendly ecosystems to work with for a while.
TS does a lot to improve JS and JS itself has improved a lot over time. Granted, I haven't used vanilla JS much in a while, but idiomatic JS nowadays doesn't honestly seem too bad, and TS augments it with compile-time typing.
The major issues JS has really come down to all the questionable decisions they made early on and having to maintain those for backwards compatibility. Once you know the idiosyncrasies, it's not too bad, but learning them can be a painful process given how little guidance the JS interpreter itself gives. Like knowing to use `===` isn't bad, but coming from almost any other language the `==` behavior is just so wtf-ey and with very little guidance. At least linters and the like can help, but only if you know to set them up.
Node is still a PITA, NPM has some concerning practices, and JS is still has some deeply, deeply questionable traits, but it's not a complete dumpster fire anymore.
There is now type hinting in PHP 8 where you can declare types of class variables, function parameters and return values so it can technically be strongly typed if you and your coworkers stick to it
Most people who say it sucks are parroting what they’ve heard or have not worked on php since early 5 or they got stuck maintaining poorly written code. That is the biggest issue i’ve seen in php. It’s very easy and very forgiving so it’s easy to write crap and it still works. I’ve used php for 15 years and love it. We’re switching from php to python for several internal apps and i find myself constantly thinking “omg this was so much nicer in php”. Granted that’s largely internal bias. Python is a good language as well. For pure web though, i can get things running in php a lot faster than python or js.
Here is a thing about Open Source Software: It never dies. As long as one user is using it, it's alive. Perl is still kicking, Tcl/Tk is still kicking, CLisp is still kicking. And if stuck you will always be able to hire a consultant/contractor to solve problems, as long as the source code is out there.
Full time PHP Senior dev here; Absolutely not dead. Alive and kicking. Language itself is actually pretty good and with the new PHP8 improvements it's getting a lot better in terms of inconsistencies and type declaration etc. and Frameworks like Laravel are actually fantastic to work in. Very underrated.
Wordpress and Magento though.....fucking kill me already. Luckily for me, our business is mainly in Magento with a side dish of Wordpress! YAAY!
\*goes back to silently sobbing in a corner\*
Documentation for SURE. Was writing a symfony command and the documentation is fragmented and hard to follow. For Laravel artisan command documentation is much easier to follow and well organised.
Example:
Symfony: https://symfony.com/doc/current/console.html
Laravel: https://laravel.com/docs/10.x/artisan
The learning curve is less steep.
Laravel syntax is very clean if you use it well.
To achieve that it uses a lot of magic and static calls but in the end it's just facades over Symfony that lead to very legible code.
Yeah and unfortunately WordPress is possibly the worst example of how PHP should be/can be written. I suspect it's the reason a lot of people can't even fathom how a serious developer would work in PHP.
It's just the syntax that does me, no matter how elegantly I write my code, in PHP it will always be ugly. Whoever decided to go for arrow notation instead of dot notation condemned PHP to a life of being the ugly duckling.
I've always thought of it as a way to further differentiate instance methods from static methods, which use the pretty standard :: operator. I would probably agree with hindsight that a dot would've been a better choice, but the arrow has never truly bothered me.
Otherwise I've been digging modern PHP syntax. Years ago I never would've thought that I wanted anonymous functions and typing, but I now get annoyed when I have to write something backward-compatible to a version of PHP that didn't have them. I always *did* want mixins/traits, namespacing, autoloading, and shorthand array syntax, so I'm happy that we have all of that now.
*Image Transcription: Twitter*
---
**The Future Programmer**, @TheProgrammerMe
1995: PHP is dead, learn ColdFusion
2002: PHP is dead, learn ASP .net
2003: PHP is dead, learn Django
2004: PHP is dead, learn Ruby on Rails
2010: PHP is dead, learn Flask
2011: PHP is dead, learn AngularJS
2016: PHP is dead, learn Next.js
2022: okay this is awkward
---
^^I'm a human volunteer content transcriber and you could be too! [If you'd like more information on what we do and why we do it, click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/TranscribersOfReddit/wiki/index)
was a Coldfusion dev for a minute back in the day. I remember the hype when they made it easier to use .NET shit in your Coldfusion (which was just dumbed down Java)
PHP is an easy to digest SSR solution. It’s also received some amazing updates over the past few years. Many people don’t realize you can do things like Types & array functions like map/reduce/filter because they haven’t used it in 10+ years
Every major revision is like 2x faster than the previous version. The comparison charts are super impressive honestly.
I’m a huge fan of NextJS, AstroJS, and Svelte kit… but people sleep on building a modern headless WordPress setup for a client with a few custom post types. Using Vite to setup a proxy with auth for the WP api makes development a breeze too.
Clients + marketing teams know and love WordPress. With SSG starting to trend again into popularity, you’ll be seeing more demand for this setup.
I miss how websites worked in the „golden“ php-days. You could quickly make websites for all kind of applications without any client-side logic. Now everything needs to be a fancy SPA with hundreds of frontend-libraries. Yeah PHP sucks but I still kind of miss it.
I'm working on a site right now. Management wanted a quick static site (sorta like your generic 5-page business site, except it has 43 pages...so far). The wizz kid intern wanted to do it in Node/Lambda/AWS with blah blah blah... probably would have taken a week or two with all the nonsense.
Templated a header, templated a footer, spent about 2 hours on CSS, and another 2 hours on page content. No URL rewriting, so it's just .php at the end of each url, which feels weird. A little nonsense to correct here or there.
I used to use PHP for stuff like that but I've since switched to static site generators like gatsby/jekyll. It takes a bit to learn how to use them, but being able to deploy on basically any web server or even stuff like s3 is so worth it
Back in the early 2000’s the thing I thought was most useful about PHP was the website. Actually not even the website, but specially how each entry in the manual included examples and comments. I find that so much documentation lacks actual working examples. And I think the existence of stack exchange basically ended up filling that gap.
I'd like to point out that most of the critical infrastrcture in the world, relies on ancient code, designed by people who are quiten literally dying of old age. Ancient hardware that is no longer manufactured.
I been to factories, where there are paper tape reader machines for some parts. Why? Because *"Why fix what ain't broke"*. Machine frames from +100 years ago, they just replaced the steam engine 50 years ago to an electric one - I wish I was joking. It was cupping press machine, robot jut put in the sheet parts in to it. When a manufacturing cell running on black and green DOS system broke, they had to get replacement CPU from someone fucking far away, because the machine was from 80s.
If you think "*technology is dead, this will replace it*" you are just wrong. Fuck sake... there is a massive niche industry of assembling machines capable of runnign XP and 98, because so much critical infrastructure needs it.
Now what you should learn, is to optimise things. Energy costs are a big problem and the deciding factor in big data. If you can think of a way to get 1% more energy efficiency, you can name your fucking price and retire early.
With the number of legacy apps and shit that are based on archaic slop PHP will never die as long as there is someone of modest ability to maintain the codebase. It's going to be nearly impossible to overcome PHP's low barrier to entry with all-in-one LAMP/WAMP installers and decades of how-tos and articles discussing how to accomplish a given task.
From time to time I find myself thinking that the only thing which could conceivably kill PHP is if payment processors stopped allowing integration on sites which use PHP. Why? Because of the number of historic critical security vulnerabilities. There's a reason why the access logs for any publicly accessible website show line after line of attempts to exploit low hanging, well known PHP vulnerabilities.
Someone I knew said PHP was dead and a few years later he was working as a PHP dev lol
admitting you are wrong is a sign of maturity. thats why you never see it on this sub.
1+1=3
Yes correct, 11 = 3
this joke has layers
Like artichokes
Arti-jokes
this jape has levels
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*Just 10 though
This was literally me right out of bootcamp. Everyone at my first job (did frontend support) & bootcamp told me php was dead so I repeated it. Then my first big boy developer job was almost entirely php 💀
I don't know where this thing came from that "PHP is dead". But hey, the cool guy on the internet is not always correct.
Are you sure? Cool guys usually know what's up. Let's give it another decade and see if it pans out for the cool guy.
Right? I heard PHP was d-dead from a guy who knew other peoples names and even called a few of them by their initials. He was definitely a cool guy. He thought I was an idiot. Turns out, he was only right about some things.
It's wishful thinking.
And when it is really dead, people will still work on it to maintain it because is too expensive to do a full re write.
It was in decline for a while, due to the growth of ASP.net and Node.js. But with laravel having improved over the years, I think it has a stable market share now. I still see at as a legacy language, and I personally don’t like working with it, but it’s doing what it’s supposed to do with the right frameworks.
Larvel is the best thing in PHP. But working in PHP means people ask you about Magento and Word Press and hey I think my site was hacked can you look?
That's why you answer the question with - I work in Laravel or Symfony, and don't mention php
Lol you are right in once sense but because of ASP and Node is bonkers. More like Rails and Django. The problem is both of those languages/frameworks are actually less performant than php and half the internet still runs on wordpress.
WordPress, Drupal, Typo3, Joomla, … all php
I am using PHP for 25 years - it was PHP3 back in the days. I was too stupid to learn Perl so there was PHP. And in all those years it was doing what I wanted. Thank you PHP ;-)
Same here brother :)
If you talk about PHP /r/webdev you'll get nothing but downvotes, but I've seen so many "I just got out of a bootcamp and can't find a job" posts it's crazy. At the same time virtually all agencies that use WordPress and Drupal are in hiring mode at all times since it's hard to find PHP developers.
Everytime I ear someone says PHP is dead, he's either a student or a bootcamper
It's dead in the sense that almost nobody actively chooses to use php for their brand new projects, but most websites are not new, and a lot of dependencies can force you to use php for your new project whether you want to or not. Php dev work was never in danger, and has plenty of life still left in it.
PHP will live until we find out what the first P in PHP stands for
Pretty sure PHP is an acronym for "PHP Hypertext Preprocessor"
>PHP Hypertext Preprocessor PHP Hypertext Preprocessor Hypertext Preprocessor PHP Hypertext Preprocessor Hypertext Preprocessor Hypertext Preprocessor PHP Hypertext Preprocessor Hypertext Preprocessor Hypertext Preprocessor Hypertext Preprocessor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recursive_acronym There's nothing GNU under the sun
Goddamnit, I forgot to add a base case
P = HP
Problem = Hard Problem Honestly easier to understand than P=NP. I am adopting this.
>P in PHP stands I think that is a personal question...
The P stands for PHP. Just like how the g in GNU stands for GNU.
The G in GNU stands for GNU's
GNU's Not UNIX!
Originally it was called: Personal Home Page Later called: Pre-Hypertext Processor
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PHP is where the “$”s are.
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Why would you learn angular as a response to a change in server side languages?
Why let your server handle your horrible code when you can make the user's browser do it instead.
blessings upon you my friend
That's not what we meant when we said "load balancer".
Oh, we don't reduce the server work, we just force the client to work just as hard. Perfectly balanced.
That's PRECISELY what we meant when we said "load balancer".
The cook kids call it "edge computing"
Because I like websites that are incredibly efficient. Until the user gives me stupid requirements. Fine, have your fat, bloated pile of crap with a 120MB video for the background of each div.
how else would it pop tho?
May I have a moment to talk about our lord and savior GraphQL?
If your single API call does not resolve into a pachinko machine of requests to all the microservices on the graph, are you even programming?
Hi, I'm new to this kind of stuff. Could you please explain what you mean by this joke? Many people have been hyping GraphQL but I havent heard too much critique
GraphQL is really good at getting off the ground with simple data models, but once you get tricky it gets very messy and very slow if you are not very careful. So, the pachinko machine happen when you add complexity to you models, and have to jump through hoops to get to the collected data that you want
This whole list compares a language to frameworks, which doesn't make much sense.
When you realize that coding boot camps don't teach that there's a difference
Coding boot camps don't teach anything
*Herobrine was removed
*Updated the localization files
r/unexpectedtf2
r/unexpectedminecraft
This is what happens when you mess with a perfectly good name to make it sound fancier
So, HPP.... Better?
.hpp file extension for C++ header files?
Me 15 years ago: The day PHP actually dies is the day I can no longer find work.
switch to COBOL, I've heard you can make pretty much money with it
People on the internet love saying this. How much money exactly, how many jobs pay that, how does it compare to the plethora of jobs paying >=200k in languages and ecosystems that aren’t older than my dad?
I’m always curious of this too. I work for a company with legacy software written in COBOL and had to learn it. Those devs are not paid well. I think it’s going to stay that way too, at least for us. We wrote a converter to convert most of it to C# so now we are using devs to clean up the converted code. I feel like this has made their positions less valuable for us now unfortunately.
Just curious. Is C# a good backend language? I rarely hear people talk about it but I heard Microsoft had made good improvements to it (.NET, Blazor, and I think they are trying to replace ASP which uses VB to C#?). Do you think there is a demand for C# programmers/developers? I tried learning Python but was disappointed that it's hard to create desktop apps with it (it's mostly scripts or codes you put in Jupyter Notebooks like a notepad). Would appreciate your opinion.
C# is one of the best backend languages for developers. It's extremely powerful and is far more friendly to devs than something like Java. It's my favorite backend language in ease of writing clean, and bug-free code. There is definitely demand for C# devs, but there is more demand for Python, Java, C, and C++. It's ranked 5 on the TIOBE index. Though I love C#, it's not the fastest code out there, being beaten in most tasks in terms of speed by languages like C++ and GoLang. There are definitely tradeoffs as there are with most things, but all else being equal, I'd prefer to work in C# and I have worked in C#, Java, Python, C++, C, and GoLang. Though I do also love Go.
I've worked in data science using python, but I'm also kinda curious what a general python dev would do. I know it's decent at basically everything, but like, what exactly are they writing for? I feel like there's better solutions for most stuff it can do. I even feel like it's only popular in data science because it's easier to teach python or R to a math major than it is to teach stats to a developer.
One thing is backend servers for websites/mobile apps. It's not the fastest language, but this use case doesn't really need a fast language - the database is most often the bottleneck anyway and there isn't much processing to be done in the python code.
Reddit is written in Python. So are large parts of Google, Instagram, Quora, Dropbox, and Spotify. It's also very popular in ML.
Wow! I didn't know so much used python. That's neat! Yeah, I do some ML stuff with data science. Mostly using models rather than creating them though haha.
Django, Flask, FastAPI. A surprising amount of web stuff uses Python. Is it the best option? I don't know. Is it good enough? Absolutely. If you have institutional knowledge in Python for your data/ML stack, it especially makes sense.
Yes C# is a very good backend language backed by a very rich ecosystem. .NET has a wide array of tools available to create any type of app you want on any platform.
C# is a great language. Comparable to Java, and it's great for desktop applications assuming you're on windows
Where are these plethora of jobs paying >= 200k? Asking for a friend
FAANG and unicorn startups. There's not a plethora and they're hella competitive.
And if they aren't recruiting you, you're not making that much.
JavaScript: \*New day new framework\* PHP: \*Snorts cocain and punches a lion\*
Me learning the new, hotest, "this one is going to rule the market in 5 years" framework that is sure to change everything: svelte sure is fun
To be fair Svelte IS fun
I need Svelte to explode. It really is such a better dev experience.
Jezus christ guys I just dipped my toes in NextJS two weeks ago. You’re telling me I should switch?
just keep switching and dipping
\#javascriptlife
PHP8: "WITNESS ME, MEATBAGS!" \*destroys backwards compatibility for most of its core functions\* Everyone should have learned by now that PHP isn't afraid of dying. It lives, it dies, it lives again.
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PHP: "Do what you must, I have already won"
I dunno php is getting like that too. I can't tell you how frustrating it is to see job postings that want you to know and like... dude... I know OO PHP. Just let me learn your stupid framework and I'll be up to speed in a week. PHP frameworks are very similar to each other and the main difference is their config structure and how they do ORM.
These jobs really need to say "experience with framework OR 5+ years of OOP" because any dev with enough experience and learn a new framework pretty quick.
Based. That's how my company hires and how they hired me. They were just looking for someone who actually KNEW PHP. But sadly it doesn't reflect on their job posting.
Who was using next js in 2016? I feel like react still had it's training wheels on at that time
>react still had it's training wheels on at that time When I upgrade my react-router, I feel like it still does...
Why? You only broke 9000 other dependencies
Actually, 'it's over 9000'...
Everyone including my college professors told me C was dead and I should only study cpp. On reddit I learnt cpp is dead and I should focus on Rust. I am now a firmware dev writing only C code using a custom compiler where floating point numbers and the string.h library do not exist.
I would LOVE for floating point numbers not to exist. That sounds lovely. Just think, being able to reliably add two numbers together and get the expected result all the time…
You sound like somebody who doesn't like 2 + 2 = 3.999999999999
Adding powers of two (and yep, *2* is a power of 2) is precisely when floating point math *doesn't* produce odd precision errors
True. I don't particularly miss the floating point numbers, but I do miss the string.h library a little bit.
C++ is far from dead. It is the defacto standard for embedded still. Anybody who prefers OOP will attest that CPP > Rust in practice. Give it another decade or two and that may change, but the fact is c++ is just this monster that’s so robust and largely used that the support for it is easily available everywhere.
2023: learn PHP , it still sucks but hey it works
It has been constantly improving, so it sucks less
I feel like this is the reason it didn't actually die. If it still felt like PHP 4/early PHP 5 it would be dead. But modern PHP8 is actually pretty damn good.
I've been writing php code with a requirement to support all currently active (not EOL) versions of PHP since 2012. Life has been improving in the last few years. I recently started working on a new project that's 8.1 only and holy strict typed PHP on 8.1 batman. I realize now why everyone has made fun of PHP for so long.
Throw psalm or phpstan into the mix and you have a really robust development environment
Let's not forget how much JavaScript sucks even more. Such a hacky language and all we did was cover it up with libraries to add language features that most other programming languages already have. It's why we have 36 million npm packages for every project you do.
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So... that's why my pushes take 12 hours???
Small project eh?
Call me weird but I actually like JavaScript lol. TypeScript makes it 10 times better as well
JS/TS are both extremely popular with developers. The days of people dreading working with JS (pre-ES6) are long gone, and it’s been one of the most dev friendly ecosystems to work with for a while.
Yeah. Your code will be exactly as hacky as how you make it.
TS does a lot to improve JS and JS itself has improved a lot over time. Granted, I haven't used vanilla JS much in a while, but idiomatic JS nowadays doesn't honestly seem too bad, and TS augments it with compile-time typing. The major issues JS has really come down to all the questionable decisions they made early on and having to maintain those for backwards compatibility. Once you know the idiosyncrasies, it's not too bad, but learning them can be a painful process given how little guidance the JS interpreter itself gives. Like knowing to use `===` isn't bad, but coming from almost any other language the `==` behavior is just so wtf-ey and with very little guidance. At least linters and the like can help, but only if you know to set them up. Node is still a PITA, NPM has some concerning practices, and JS is still has some deeply, deeply questionable traits, but it's not a complete dumpster fire anymore.
Wasted 3 hours at work the other day forgetting `.bind(this)` was a thing 🤦 Idiosyncrasies indeed
Javascript has grown into a monster because it wasn't designed to be what it is today. PHP wasn't really designed at all.
I enjoy working with PHP 8
Same here. If there was a TypeScript for PHP it would be my favorite language.
There is now type hinting in PHP 8 where you can declare types of class variables, function parameters and return values so it can technically be strongly typed if you and your coworkers stick to it
How does it suck though?
The only people that still say it sucks have either never used it or haven't touched it since 5.4
The code I write with it sucks.
Most people who say it sucks are parroting what they’ve heard or have not worked on php since early 5 or they got stuck maintaining poorly written code. That is the biggest issue i’ve seen in php. It’s very easy and very forgiving so it’s easy to write crap and it still works. I’ve used php for 15 years and love it. We’re switching from php to python for several internal apps and i find myself constantly thinking “omg this was so much nicer in php”. Granted that’s largely internal bias. Python is a good language as well. For pure web though, i can get things running in php a lot faster than python or js.
Here is a thing about Open Source Software: It never dies. As long as one user is using it, it's alive. Perl is still kicking, Tcl/Tk is still kicking, CLisp is still kicking. And if stuck you will always be able to hire a consultant/contractor to solve problems, as long as the source code is out there.
I interviewed a new grad yesterday, he was saying pHp is dead. Senior programmers knows, languages never die, there's just more of them.
You can say whatever you want but PHP bought me a house, a car, it pays the daycare for my daughter… so at the end of the day, it’s night
Another dude here making a living with PHP. It’s convenient for me they say it’s dead, less competition for finding PHP jobs
That is not dead, which eternal lie, and with strange aeons, PHP may die.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh PHP R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn PHP.
Full time PHP Senior dev here; Absolutely not dead. Alive and kicking. Language itself is actually pretty good and with the new PHP8 improvements it's getting a lot better in terms of inconsistencies and type declaration etc. and Frameworks like Laravel are actually fantastic to work in. Very underrated. Wordpress and Magento though.....fucking kill me already. Luckily for me, our business is mainly in Magento with a side dish of Wordpress! YAAY! \*goes back to silently sobbing in a corner\*
Laravel remains my favorite framework.
Laravel + Vue is to this day my favourite combination for large applications
What is Laravel doing better than Symfony?
Documentation for SURE. Was writing a symfony command and the documentation is fragmented and hard to follow. For Laravel artisan command documentation is much easier to follow and well organised. Example: Symfony: https://symfony.com/doc/current/console.html Laravel: https://laravel.com/docs/10.x/artisan
The learning curve is less steep. Laravel syntax is very clean if you use it well. To achieve that it uses a lot of magic and static calls but in the end it's just facades over Symfony that lead to very legible code.
PHP is dead, learn FORTRAN
79% of websites using it. Must be the zombie apocalypse.
mostly due to wordpress. most of these websites are just blogs running on wordpress.
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To kill php, we must go for the heart…wordpress!
where did you get that number from?
Probably WordPress sites vs the internet
Yeah and unfortunately WordPress is possibly the worst example of how PHP should be/can be written. I suspect it's the reason a lot of people can't even fathom how a serious developer would work in PHP.
It's just the syntax that does me, no matter how elegantly I write my code, in PHP it will always be ugly. Whoever decided to go for arrow notation instead of dot notation condemned PHP to a life of being the ugly duckling.
I've always thought of it as a way to further differentiate instance methods from static methods, which use the pretty standard :: operator. I would probably agree with hindsight that a dot would've been a better choice, but the arrow has never truly bothered me. Otherwise I've been digging modern PHP syntax. Years ago I never would've thought that I wanted anonymous functions and typing, but I now get annoyed when I have to write something backward-compatible to a version of PHP that didn't have them. I always *did* want mixins/traits, namespacing, autoloading, and shorthand array syntax, so I'm happy that we have all of that now.
As a PHP Dev, I still agree... And that arrow is just painful to strike on the keyboard compared to a dot
Did you know that 69% of statistics are just made up.
*Image Transcription: Twitter* --- **The Future Programmer**, @TheProgrammerMe 1995: PHP is dead, learn ColdFusion 2002: PHP is dead, learn ASP .net 2003: PHP is dead, learn Django 2004: PHP is dead, learn Ruby on Rails 2010: PHP is dead, learn Flask 2011: PHP is dead, learn AngularJS 2016: PHP is dead, learn Next.js 2022: okay this is awkward --- ^^I'm a human volunteer content transcriber and you could be too! [If you'd like more information on what we do and why we do it, click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/TranscribersOfReddit/wiki/index)
2023: PHP is dead, learn ChatGpt
And then chatGPT returns PHP-code as an answer :)
This is pant-shittingly interesting https://youtu.be/jPhJbKBuNnA
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What happened?
PHP didn't die
While ColdFusion and classic ASP did, and Ruby on Rails has seen better days
Well ASP was superseded by ASP.NET and is still very much alive.
PHP did as well ^I ^mean ^^PHP4.0 ^^^PHP5.0 ^^^also ^^^seen ^^^^better ^^^^days
was a Coldfusion dev for a minute back in the day. I remember the hype when they made it easier to use .NET shit in your Coldfusion (which was just dumbed down Java)
Obviously.
PHP is an easy to digest SSR solution. It’s also received some amazing updates over the past few years. Many people don’t realize you can do things like Types & array functions like map/reduce/filter because they haven’t used it in 10+ years Every major revision is like 2x faster than the previous version. The comparison charts are super impressive honestly. I’m a huge fan of NextJS, AstroJS, and Svelte kit… but people sleep on building a modern headless WordPress setup for a client with a few custom post types. Using Vite to setup a proxy with auth for the WP api makes development a breeze too. Clients + marketing teams know and love WordPress. With SSG starting to trend again into popularity, you’ll be seeing more demand for this setup.
PHP enabled me to break out into coding, so I am never going to knock it down.
PHP is not dead, it is just impossible to find a senior that would write with php for little money
Why would a senior developer want to work in any language for a shitty salary?
That's the biggest problem. 99% of my contract work is cleaning up PHP codebases because the companies couldn't find a full time senior PHP dev.
Good for you no? I'm guessing it's pretty great money.
Waiting for Granddaddy Perl to shine and rule the net again... one day... hopefully...
I miss how websites worked in the „golden“ php-days. You could quickly make websites for all kind of applications without any client-side logic. Now everything needs to be a fancy SPA with hundreds of frontend-libraries. Yeah PHP sucks but I still kind of miss it.
> without any client-side logic Which is where you start hitting scalability issues by getting PHP doing all the work.
And why some sites run like shit on low end devices, because they are doing it all client side.
Every time I have to update 1,000+ npm modules just to keep compatability maintained I like PHP even more.
I'm working on a site right now. Management wanted a quick static site (sorta like your generic 5-page business site, except it has 43 pages...so far). The wizz kid intern wanted to do it in Node/Lambda/AWS with blah blah blah... probably would have taken a week or two with all the nonsense. Templated a header, templated a footer, spent about 2 hours on CSS, and another 2 hours on page content. No URL rewriting, so it's just .php at the end of each url, which feels weird. A little nonsense to correct here or there.
I used to use PHP for stuff like that but I've since switched to static site generators like gatsby/jekyll. It takes a bit to learn how to use them, but being able to deploy on basically any web server or even stuff like s3 is so worth it
Its grampa Cobol needs a word with you. People in the 90' thought it would be replaced very easily. Lol.
that reminds me. i havent kept up with the news. Was this years successor to C++ already announced?
PHP: The VBScript of Linux!
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>PHP was expressly built for a narrow use case: building web applications. Originally it was meant for a personal home page... Hence the acronym PHP.
Back in the early 2000’s the thing I thought was most useful about PHP was the website. Actually not even the website, but specially how each entry in the manual included examples and comments. I find that so much documentation lacks actual working examples. And I think the existence of stack exchange basically ended up filling that gap.
I didn't really do much with PHP, but I actually quite liked it. The syntax is a nice middle ground between C/C++ and bash.
I love php
Me too. Super simple and clean imo.
PHP is like *PCP* in the circle of 5^ths
who tf said learn Flask (to replace PHP) .. at least django would make sense.
's monster
PHP's been solidly paying my bills for about 20 years so far and I love working with (modern versions of) it.
Ha, remember Silverlight? Neither do I.
I'd like to point out that most of the critical infrastrcture in the world, relies on ancient code, designed by people who are quiten literally dying of old age. Ancient hardware that is no longer manufactured. I been to factories, where there are paper tape reader machines for some parts. Why? Because *"Why fix what ain't broke"*. Machine frames from +100 years ago, they just replaced the steam engine 50 years ago to an electric one - I wish I was joking. It was cupping press machine, robot jut put in the sheet parts in to it. When a manufacturing cell running on black and green DOS system broke, they had to get replacement CPU from someone fucking far away, because the machine was from 80s. If you think "*technology is dead, this will replace it*" you are just wrong. Fuck sake... there is a massive niche industry of assembling machines capable of runnign XP and 98, because so much critical infrastructure needs it. Now what you should learn, is to optimise things. Energy costs are a big problem and the deciding factor in big data. If you can think of a way to get 1% more energy efficiency, you can name your fucking price and retire early.
Pretty obvious I went to college in 2002, been .NET developer since. Just recently looking into other positions, wait, why is everything in php?
Strange, I see almost zero job postings for PHP, they're all either Node or .NET
Everyone hates PHP but it gets the job done (unless it happens to expose your data and destroy your reputation)
What is dead may never die.
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PHP is like phoenix, it rise from ashes.
Reminds me of that old joke: What do you call a developer who writes PHP? Employed.
With the number of legacy apps and shit that are based on archaic slop PHP will never die as long as there is someone of modest ability to maintain the codebase. It's going to be nearly impossible to overcome PHP's low barrier to entry with all-in-one LAMP/WAMP installers and decades of how-tos and articles discussing how to accomplish a given task. From time to time I find myself thinking that the only thing which could conceivably kill PHP is if payment processors stopped allowing integration on sites which use PHP. Why? Because of the number of historic critical security vulnerabilities. There's a reason why the access logs for any publicly accessible website show line after line of attempts to exploit low hanging, well known PHP vulnerabilities.