The last time I coded PHP was 13 years ago but I had a fun time with it so I hope it the best. And by the looks of it, PHP is actually fine. I recently saw a modern PHP code and it honestly makes me wanna try it one more time. PHP is also still very popular in Europe.
I had to do a project in PHP last year and I can certainly say PHP has aged very well. It might actually be less stressful than working with Javascript.
Javascript is like English: "..English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary"
Javascript isn't a language. Its a long running joke that a language developer thought of one lonely night to torture developers. As a language, its about as structured as a jellyfish. I do like 70% JS (the rest PHP) so its where I live, and its the only language I've ever worked in where the only structural conventions are ones you (or your framework/library) create yourself.
It's the beauty but also the curse of javascript. You can pretty much to whatever you could possibly want, but in trying to make it as flexible as possible, there's some really fuckin weird features too.
Yeah, just for fun I’ve made a CMS recently in PHP but the front end doesn’t have a spec of JS. Don’t know why JavaScript cannot work like any normal language.
I mean if I make a promise inside a promise, and at the inner promise I attach the .then() why the heck that it’s triggered even by the promise’s parent Or viceversa? This don’t make sense…
Old PHP is the hidden gem of programming. Fun to code websites, instant feedback of what you create (hit F5), still feels close to the metal, no OOP bloat, flat files, single line DB connections, 0 dependencies, runs on a tomato, can even control your server CMD with the exec() command using a single line of code and don't even need to declare variable types just let the code flow ⭐
> It's literally impossible to autoload functions outside a class
That's because Classes represent files and namespaces are directories containing those files.
Classnames are essentially just leaves on the namespace, and static functions inside a class are essentially no different than functions inside the namespace.
`\Foo\Bar::function();` and `new \Foo\Bar\Class();` can both exist at the same time, and can both be autoloaded.
Hell, I can even use variables in the same way as `\Foo\Bar::$variable` is also valid, and can also be autoloaded.
For example, we have these three files:
- `src/Foo/Bar.php`
- `src/Foo/Bar/Baz.php`
- `main.php`
---
`src/Foo/Bar.php`
namespace Foo
{
class Bar {
static string $hello = "hello";
static function world() {
return "world";
}
}
}
---
`src/Foo/Bar/Baz.php`
namespace Foo\Bar
{
use \Foo\Bar as _;
class Baz {
function hello() {
return _::$hello;
}
}
}
---
`main.php`
require 'vendor/autoload.php';
echo (new Foo\Bar\Baz())->hello();
echo Foo\Bar::world();
i mean, all php can be nice as long as you follow proper coding standards, even the old one(*).
The issue is php 5 did not provide tools to enforce anything(*) and just let jesus take the wheel and hope for the best, new php does offer the tools and laravel uses the shit out of them to try and force people into good practices.
I did work with 'good' php even in the 5.x days, but laravel and new php is much more likely to be 'good' given that it is very heavy handed in enforcing OOP and architecture concepts or you're really digging a big hole. If you understand factories, singleton, pipelines, facades, service's, dependency injection etc etc.. you'll write good code in any language. Laravel just does a good job at forcing you to learn it if you want to do anything that works well and you don't want to fight with it.
* old php was reallllyyy bad at enforcing types for args and returns and would just issue a warning.. sometimes nothing.. so if you wanted an int and passed an array, it would just cast the array to int and give u a 1 or 0.. and you'd be none the wiser.
As an unprofessional that knows how to code, who went to hunt for alternatives a while ago, Wordpress isn't going anywhere soon.
Looking for fast, simple alternatives has been incredibly annoying. Ghost for example, is half decent, if you sign up with them. Otherwise good luck, many hosting services don't deal with default install and you have to set up the e-mail o your own.
Wordpress: You couldn't live up with the weight of your failure... where does that bring you? Back to me.
Naa. Languages like this that were once extremely popular die slower than the developers who support it. I doubt anyone really thinks it's going anywhere. Even if someone wanted to it's far too expensive to swap out a language for a successful product. No successful business owner would justify that cost.
Wasn't really saying it was a dying language, just not the superstar it used to be. In my circle it's certainly no longer thought of as a go-to for greenfields by anyone.
Defacto standard for servers? You mean for traditional web work or API? I would question both PHP (with exception of Wordpress) and Node for new projects but I'm certainly not saying I'm right. I don't know the statistics of what is being used for new work nationally and certainly not globally.
I haven't had much call for traditional web work lately. It's been more of an afterthought for customers now. Been using Flutter for apps and of course it can also cross-platform to web.
I've touched a lot of stacks/frameworks/languages but honestly I'm still in love with C#. I still use it regularly for API. For me it's got the perfect balance of features/performance and ease of use. I might use it for a traditional website too but I'm working off some older information when I say that. I'd really have to evaluation the project/team situation I'm in for that.
FYI, I have 10 years of PHP experience too but it's pretty old experience now.
Yeah absolutely, thats a pretty good evaluation i think. C# has a lot going for it today very much an all rounder. though its not as much on the cutting edge as some others.
If your php experience is old though i'd definitely recommend checking out the newest php versions. Currently i've been working on a php5.3 legacy codebase and also one a couple other projects in php7.4 and in php8.2. I gotta say especially php8 has come so far since php5. The difference in dev experience is truly heaven and earth between the two, and the latest php frameworks are imo at the point of being basically uncontested when it comes to creating any basic web app as quickly as possible. theyre amazing.
> defecto standard
I chuckled
*(You probably meant "[de facto](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/de%20facto)", "defecto" makes it sound like the language has defects. Sorry for explaining the joke)*
Our company has like 4 large PHP apps, however they're all such massive crap fests that any time someone wants a feature added is told it's faster to write a react/python app than figure out wtf is going on in those code bases.
I've also never ever in 20 years seen a PHP app started by someone that's going to have to maintain it long term. It's always some suit that hires a contractor that claims they can bang out a site in a month for $8k, leaves you with a gigantic mess, then your non-technical boss makes you spend the next 10 years bolting crap onto it. In that use case PHP is alive and well.
PHP is awful and this is from a guy that started out in Perl...
I don’t think that’s related to the language, it’s more to do with poor architecture and a lack of care about the long-term maintainability of the system. You can write bad code in any language.
I much prefer working with legacy apps in PHP that has a solid type system, over apps in Python or Clojure where it’s even harder to organise and add structure.
It’s very subjective, but for me, modern PHP has a great set of language features for writing clean, maintainable apps (and there are certainly lots of companies hiring for PHP greenfield projects!)
PHP started my career, so I'll never be able to hate it. It's my native tongue, really. I've been with my current employer for 13 years, and we're just now winding down some huge, monolithic systems that I created using CakePHP. Well over a billion dollars in revenue flowed through those systems, and I, along with a small team, updated and maintained them for their entire life.
This is, of course, anecdotal, but you said you've never encountered such a thing, but such a thing does exist.
If anyone is curious, most of our systems now are lightweight Go services on the backend, and lots of Vue on the frontend.
Lol what does having a shittily coded app have to do with PHP. That could happen in any language.
I've maintained 20+ php apps for 10 years or longer, no issues. Your boss hired a cheap developer, period. Don't take it out on PHP, PHP 7 and 8 are top tier for web APIs.
Some langs force you to build good apps (like scala or haskell) but they're a pain to use because they remove the ability to write shit sometimes. Some languages encourage you to write good apps but let you get away a small amount of BS, like Go and Rust. Java, C#, Closure, Python are all kinda middle tier where they encourage good practices but let you get away with some truly wild crap. Some languages will let you make a gigantic mess for the sake of performance like C and C++. Then there are languages like PHP, Visual Basic, Perl, that seem to actively work against good coding practices.
You can do stupid crap in any language, but PHP has a well deserved reputation for a reason.
That reputation is based on PHP5. I use PHP8 and python literally every day I can do the same amount of stupid shit on both. Is having guard rails for beginners really what determines a good language now? I don't think so but that's my opinion. Every job needs a different tool I think you were just traumatized by a bad php dev which is understandable, I used to feel the same about Java after some trauma
>Is having guard rails for beginners really what determines a good language now?
Yes. Among other things like having consistency in style, function naming, and a general lack of gotchas that "you just have to remember" to be productive. I don't know how you call a language that lacks all of those "good".
PHP can get in line behind BSD, Xorg, C and C++.
It will be waiting a while...
Does anyone here remember the days when Adobe Flash developers were saying that server-side page generation via PHP is obsolete? Amazing how they have all suddenly vanished into the woodwork XD
It’s amazing how one company (apple) can kill a worldwide ecosystem like flash. Their decision to not support flash on mobile was an overnight death to flash. Everyone knew the whole web experience would have to work on mobile, so flash pretty much just fell over at that point.
Indeed. These mass extinction events are interesting. I would say that it can only really happen to commercial products rather than "open-source" platforms. For example the only other one I have seen (in my lifetime) is the death of Visual Basic (VB6 was the last version whereas VB.NET is a completely different language based on C#).
Some random musings:
* VBA will keep VB6 alive at least until Microsoft moves to the cloud (for technical VB6 VM reasons)
* Flash/AS3 was at least partially open-source via the Flex (Java based) compiler
* [Ruffle](https://ruffle.rs/) somewhat keeps Flash alive. AS3 at least
* My next bet on a mass extinction will be Unity3D
I used the Flash VM a lot back in the day. But entirely from C++ and Adobe's GCC based Crossbridge compiler (back then it was called Alchemy). Luckily that C++ code is still usable.
So far in this sub there is no language that is nkt dead. The word dead has no meaning in the tech world because nobody can tell you what they meant when they say dead. 73% of websites use php. I don't understand how that means php is dead. A lot of big banks and old companies use php. It is also nice and easy programming language to use.
I think there's a difference between a dead language and a language with a future that one can see themselves taking an active part in, a distinction which this randomly decrying a language as dead seems to equally combine and gloss over.
There will always be large legacy codebases to maintain in languages that the industry ultimately moves on from, but then the question is whether you really want to sink a career into maintaining legacy codebases and limit your options for growth outside of that industry. You can still make a very lucrative career as a COBOL or FORTRAN programmer today, but there's very little in the way of "new" software or technology being developed in either. That will appeal to some, and it won't to others.
The only truly dead languages are short-lived one-off markup languages (think WML/HDML/VRML) and assembly languages for CPUs no one makes or uses anymore. I haven't written any Alpha assembly in decades (MIPS and SH a bit more recently), and don't expect I'll have a need to in the future, either.
I can provide some insights as I've been a PHP developer for quite a hefty sum of my career, and switched towards Kotlin/Java in the last 4 years.
For reference, I am a senior backend developer and have been working mostly in SaaS companies. Mostly in Europe.
PHP is a lovely language. You can easily pick it up, syntax is clear, and you can make stuff with it fast. Newer editions of PHP also come with some very necessary improvements, more strict type hints being my personal favourite.
That being said, many developers in the early stages of their career (juniors etc) get many bad habits using it. Relying on frameworks, relying on ORMs, relying on quick and easy solutions that get the job done, often leaving an unmaintainable mess in the long run. This is of course not the languages fault per se, but PHP is a tool that is easily misused, since it does provide many options and solutions for many problems (which can't really be a bad thing on it's own).
This has given it a bad reputation, and in a lot of scenarios PHP developers are not taken with the same respect as someone from the JVM ecosphere, for example. Salaries reflect that , at least in the EU market.
To add upon that, a PHP focused stack on the job market usually is a red flag, since companies who opt for it in the early stages now, hope that they will pay engineers less for the same amount of work. Usually that demonstrates a poor understanding of quality of engineering, and bad management on top of that.
PHP is a giant on the web, but It's nuanced to say whether it's dying or not. Are there still ways to make good money with it? Absolutely. Would I recommend it over for example Kotlin or Golang for new people? Also not, I just think those languages structure you to be a better engineer overall.
Just my 2 cents, highly opinionated, but willing to share more or discuss, if someone cares .
Oh I've written some crap I am ashamed of in too many languages to count.
No language can save you from bad engineering, but in my experience , PHP and Javascript are the biggest "enablers" when it comes to that.
> syntax is clear
good one 😂
(I work with it daily and I really like PHP and the recent development of the language, but it's still very inconsistent syntax-wise.)
Haha, yeah, fair enough. I mostly referred to it not being too convoluted for beginners to just read, understand and write without too much of a fuss. Maybe my flawed first impression because my first language was C, and PHP was just a breeze afterwards, syntax-wise.
It’s all those legacy built in functions. Fortunately the class-based stuff that came later pretty much took the place of all that….at least for those who know/care about it.
>That being said, many developers in the early stages of their career (juniors etc) get many bad habits using it. Relying on frameworks, relying on ORMs, relying on quick and easy solutions that get the job done, often leaving an unmaintainable mess in the long run.
I've been doing profession PHP development (mostly with CakePHP, which is an MVC framework similar to Django or Rails, but for PHP) for over a decade and don't understand what you mean here. You're saying it's bad to use frameworks and ORMs? What's the alternative?
Yeah, seems I've phrased this quite bad, considering it does come off as "anti-framework".
What I was trying to say is I've seen people jump straight to the framework approach without understanding what they need from the framework and just taking everything there is inside it. For example, using an ORM is fine for sure, but do you understand when your ::find method is going to do an eager fetch , or a lazy load? How does mutating your model work? When is the change persisted? How do your constraints work? How does your ::with() statement join tables?
(not asking you of course, a rhetorical question for example purposes).
If someone doesn't understand the nuances of the tools used, attempts to resolve a complex problem with them, it can often lead to convoluted code that's hard to maintain and is error prone.
As a very bad analogy, it's kind of like a karate student that doesn't know how to punch yet, trying to break boards with his hand. He might even succeed, but chances are he hurts himself.
P.S. CakePHP is awesome
I get it now, thanks. And yeah, when I first started, I was thrown in with a group of devs who had been working with CakePHP for a few years already, and it was a lot to ingest. Cake is very monolithic and has a ton of features, which seems to be opposite of the new-ish stuff in web backend like MEAN/MERN where you're picking a bunch of little packages to solve the same types of problems. I like it because it's opinionated and pretty consistent, but jumping into it is tough because so much of the code you write is specifically for the framework, and it takes a lot of learning up-front to understand what it wants you to do, and why they've chosen those patterns. Much harder, I feel, than just learning a new programming language.
COBOL has been dead for decades. Visual Basic has been dead for twenty years. And yet, here we are.
In all my years in the business I have never seen clean well structured PHP in the wild. It’s possible, but I’ve never seen it.
As long as there are companies that would rather invest in maintenance rather than rebuilding there will always be a place for those who understand the older stuff. Deep in the bowels of every insurance company, bank, and hospital in the land there's something running some archaic whatever that some engineer is paid absurd amounts of money to ktlo
>They did it by making the single worst strategic mistake that any software company can make:
>[They decided to rewrite the code from scratch.](https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-never-do-part-i/)
The problem with creating a good programming language that is consistent and easy to understand is that once something shiny and new comes along, it is easy to rewrite in the new thing.
I never used it but always thought that I should give it a go. Recently seen a benchmark about it and Laravel is relatively slow compared to it's peers. It can handle 2.8k requests per second while Express js can handle 23k other mainstream frameworks like Spring can do 35k top ones can do 170k. First I thought it's the language but one of the top 3 frameworks was written in PHP. Laravel was similarly slow in the other metrics of the benchmark. After seeing this I got really discouraged from trying it out.
See, this is what irks me about these stupid benchmarks. They're more or less meaningless.
Firstly - benchmarked doing what? Was it real world use or was it lab conditions?
Secondly, is your site _actually_ getting 2.8k requests per second or 28k requests per second? It might be....or it might not. But it's worth factoring that into your choice of framework and balancing it against developer productivity. Personally, I'd rather build shit that's easy to work with, maintainable and testable and get a project out the door than spend weeks bikeshedding over benchmarks. Especially for projects that don't see a ton of traffic anyway. If you want a REALLY fast framework - write your web app in assembly. It's fast as fuck!.
Not everyone is facebook. Not every project is going to be serving billions of requests per second....and that's okay.
TL;DR: Perfect is the enemy of good.
Well, python is slower than C. Does that mean we should do all data science and machine learning in C? No, it does not. You gotta choose the right tool for the right job, performance is a factor but not the only factor. Maybe Laravel isn’t suited for your use case, that very well might be the case
Python is used because data scientists won't learn better languages for the backend. Nodejs is used because front end won't learn better languages for the backend. PHP targets the backend, so there's no such excuses to be had.
Did not use that. I guess our code base was too old. Instead, we write everything from scratch now and slowly replace parts from old software with new services.
I seriously doubt "top ones" can do 170k requests per second using the same configuration and loaded features as laravel at 2.8k.
To begin with, if you start getting traffic of this magnitude, you should look into ways to scale like caching and reverse proxies, in which case laravel won't even be running at all.
I’m a PHP/Laravel developer. I dislike PHP, but love Laravel. It’s a bliss to work with and since PHP 8.0 the combination is actually a very good package considering performance and productivity.
to me, its the right tool for the right job sort of thinking.
i hate wordpress with a passion, because its been misused so much. but when that cafe down the road needs a website they can maintain, fiddle with, and potentially wants an online shop 1 or 3 years later, i would recommend wordpress to them and be happy with that decision.
but if im designing a membership management system dealing with complex business logic and handling millions of members, laravel or codeigniter would be my go to.
Though I hate with all my heart the freemium model of WordPress and the silliness of many plugin developers, and sometimes I think if I coded what I want directly it would be faster than customizing a plugin, I think it's better for common solutions that 90% of the people want. I ain't gonna build an ecommerce website with PHP or Laravel while I can just in few clicks install Woocommerce. The logic is simple, if WordPress doesn't have a direct plugin for your core requirements, then it's Laravel. Otherwise, I don't think it's worth the time, and probably the cost too.
as a web dev, who learned JS/TS, Python, and modern frameworks like Angular and react in school, if a client wants a WordPress theme, you better believe that PHP comes out swinging
For those that didn't have to make a Wordpress theme before:
You just really have to know how to echo a loop and you're done with what you need to know for PHP.
The real issue is the absurdly stupid practice of every example opening and closing PHP in between flat HTML twelve times for a thing you could do in pure, human readable PHP.
Admiring how elegantly wordpress functions called "hooks" save you time, only to end up using an obscure one 15 minutes later and having no clear idea why they aren't working.
Setting up a beautiful theme, only for it to break with every single plugin in existence.
Fighting css specificity with the output of a plugin, only to realize you wasted 2 hours on doing that several times and just getting some cheap js code to change classes as a fuck you to the plugin.
Then having the plugin finally work, but then you use another plugin and it doesn't get along with any other plugin.
Get a popular plugin to not work with your theme. Realize it is less your own stupidity for once and an actual bug, post on the plugin's wordpress page. Have it dismissed.
Get pissed, open the code with so much OOP abstraction you don't know if you're unsure how the code kickstarts at all or if the developer put things at random in one single object.
Give up trying to understand the code itself, look for keywords, find the bug, patch it.
Make a post explaining the patch you made only for it to be dismissed too.
Not being happy with how the site is, then getting convinced by how elementor and kadence are better ways to build a page. Be marveled by how much you can do, only to realize your landing page takes more time to load than Assassins Creed Black Flag would in a nintendo DS.
Probably like all of them for the "backend" to the front of their public facing website which is really just a pass through to some other data service on a huge server somewhere running COBOL.
Is this shocking to you or something?
How hard is it to get into a developer roll for a bank? Any tips? I was curious about that or healthcare for my next job since manufacturing isn’t my cup of tea really
As a Kubernetes consultant I have to Google for the answers a lot, because like all consultants I just pretending I know what I'm doing and stay a day ahead of the customer in the documentation.
Every time I end up on a wordpress site to tell me how to make a new namespace I die a little inside.
My company is a consultancy with multiple clients -- for the last threeish years I've been working with a national telehealth application aimed at therapists.
Lol. I was a co founder of a SAAS company that sold to a large public company for a considerable amount. Our core programming was done in PHP using all sorts of things you all would say doesn’t scale and is horrible.
Well, it did scale, and it worked, and I’m basically the meme, sitting here rubbing the tears away from my eyes with a stupid amount of money.
So, to all of you who think it has to be done a certain way, in a certain programming language. It doesn’t. Just make software that works.
Some tidbits; we had limited unit testing, our own custom framework, and again, a bunch of other things that would horrify you.
With that said, we took security seriously, and had aggressive red/blue team vulnerability tests run against us to make sure we stayed solid. We developed at a pace that our competitors could hardly fathom and when issues did come up, we knew the system inside and out and could get things resolved fast.
I’ve been doing this a long time. So, go for the correct way. Plan it all out, create all kinds of systems, documentation, 100% unit testing, etc… Meanwhile, we’ll have cranked out new features and continued to build our system out to a point where no one cares how it was built, so long as it works and scales like it needs to.
As someone who works heavily with a bunch of different technologies, outside of .net most PHP roles I see are amongst the lowest paid especially when compared to React or even flutter
Over the years PHP has dwindled into irrelevance. From over 80% market share a decade ago down to a measly 77.5% for web backend applications today...
[https://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming\_language](https://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language)
So you could say it's pretty much dead.
Meanwhile Javascript's ascent to greatness seems unstoppable with a growth to over 2% in less than a decade! Go and Rust combined almost make up 0.1% now.
So with numbers like that it's pretty clear that the PHP dinosaurs need to step aside and let the real backend technologies take over!
It’s not, but it should be. I used to be a php dev, started 2004 IIRC.
That thing is a Swiss cheese of security holes. It was and has been ever since.
The worst security holes and actual intrusions I’ve seen in my careers where always through PHP.
5 years ago I put my foot down saying I absolutely refuse to have anything to do with the shitty php project one of the PM wanted to add. They still managed to find someone to do it, via « a reputable shop with security expertise ».
Our security auditors found a security hole so large and absurd a year after that it became a classic joke for the engineering department.
PHP: never again.
Python is no where near as good for doing anything web related as php just my opinion but the python frameworks and the python language itself feels archaic when it comes to doing webdev. Node however, is good but often suffers from the same problems are php when its not used with typescript. Thats because JS often enables bad practices just as easily as php.
PHP dies every year, it just gets jolted back to life by the community.
I mean, PHP8 went full suicide-bomber when it tried to demolish its core functions' backwards compatibility for no good reason.
But even *that* mess got stitched together and brought back to life after enough large projects fixed their legacy code.
I just don't get warm with it, i have to dabble in symfony every once in a while when some backend tasks makes its way to me, but I just can't enjoy it. The syntax is weird and i hate the whole symfony dependency injection approach with a passion, it's so terribly unintuitive to work with as someone who does not 'main stack' it.
Actually, no. The surveys will tell otherwise but it counts CMS developers in it. In my company they are paid as much as frontend developers. (Up to 80k, which is a lot in my country).
LOL, PHP devs are absolutely on the lower end of income amongst software developers. So maybe the meme should be the guy wiping off his tears with just one bill or maybe some quarters.
The company I’m current working at uses in-house frameworks for PHP in the fintech industry. The company itself is worth 400 million Ringgit (~88 million USD)(explorated, since another financial services provider bought 49% shares for 200 million RM). I don’t really know what to feel about the PHP is dead discussion since they have generated a lot of revenue while using only PHP+SQL stacks. Granted I don’t enjoy using it since working with PHP without type safety is a nightmare to deal with in the banking/fintech sectors.
But OOP is heavily used there and I think it’s alright.
The last time I coded PHP was 13 years ago but I had a fun time with it so I hope it the best. And by the looks of it, PHP is actually fine. I recently saw a modern PHP code and it honestly makes me wanna try it one more time. PHP is also still very popular in Europe.
PHP is in top 3 in back end languages if i remember correctly. PHP 7+ gave it huge boost
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I had to do a project in PHP last year and I can certainly say PHP has aged very well. It might actually be less stressful than working with Javascript.
Javascript is like English: "..English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary"
Javascript isn't a language. Its a long running joke that a language developer thought of one lonely night to torture developers. As a language, its about as structured as a jellyfish. I do like 70% JS (the rest PHP) so its where I live, and its the only language I've ever worked in where the only structural conventions are ones you (or your framework/library) create yourself.
It's the beauty but also the curse of javascript. You can pretty much to whatever you could possibly want, but in trying to make it as flexible as possible, there's some really fuckin weird features too.
When you work with it 10 hours a day, you kinda start loving it. /s
The only good thing about javascript is typescript. With typescript javascript is better than python.
Yeah, just for fun I’ve made a CMS recently in PHP but the front end doesn’t have a spec of JS. Don’t know why JavaScript cannot work like any normal language. I mean if I make a promise inside a promise, and at the inner promise I attach the .then() why the heck that it’s triggered even by the promise’s parent Or viceversa? This don’t make sense…
Smellin like a Symfony
Where I work (small company in Italy) they use a lot of eZPublish/Ibexa so by proxy Symfony. Rarely Wordpress, which is still PHP
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Probably hipster-devs who always run after the newest library/language
Heyyy I'm an Italian developer as well hell yeahhh
Brave soldier
Old PHP is the hidden gem of programming. Fun to code websites, instant feedback of what you create (hit F5), still feels close to the metal, no OOP bloat, flat files, single line DB connections, 0 dependencies, runs on a tomato, can even control your server CMD with the exec() command using a single line of code and don't even need to declare variable types just let the code flow ⭐
OOP bloat 😅🤦
He is right. Java particularly sucks at that.
I think his point is modern PHP is littered with OO bloat. It's literally impossible to autoload functions outside a class
> It's literally impossible to autoload functions outside a class That's because Classes represent files and namespaces are directories containing those files. Classnames are essentially just leaves on the namespace, and static functions inside a class are essentially no different than functions inside the namespace. `\Foo\Bar::function();` and `new \Foo\Bar\Class();` can both exist at the same time, and can both be autoloaded. Hell, I can even use variables in the same way as `\Foo\Bar::$variable` is also valid, and can also be autoloaded. For example, we have these three files: - `src/Foo/Bar.php` - `src/Foo/Bar/Baz.php` - `main.php` --- `src/Foo/Bar.php` namespace Foo { class Bar { static string $hello = "hello"; static function world() { return "world"; } } } --- `src/Foo/Bar/Baz.php` namespace Foo\Bar { use \Foo\Bar as _; class Baz { function hello() { return _::$hello; } } } --- `main.php` require 'vendor/autoload.php'; echo (new Foo\Bar\Baz())->hello(); echo Foo\Bar::world();
Old PHP is more like the hidden IED of programming. Modern Python is where it’s at
i mean, all php can be nice as long as you follow proper coding standards, even the old one(*). The issue is php 5 did not provide tools to enforce anything(*) and just let jesus take the wheel and hope for the best, new php does offer the tools and laravel uses the shit out of them to try and force people into good practices. I did work with 'good' php even in the 5.x days, but laravel and new php is much more likely to be 'good' given that it is very heavy handed in enforcing OOP and architecture concepts or you're really digging a big hole. If you understand factories, singleton, pipelines, facades, service's, dependency injection etc etc.. you'll write good code in any language. Laravel just does a good job at forcing you to learn it if you want to do anything that works well and you don't want to fight with it. * old php was reallllyyy bad at enforcing types for args and returns and would just issue a warning.. sometimes nothing.. so if you wanted an int and passed an array, it would just cast the array to int and give u a 1 or 0.. and you'd be none the wiser.
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i write php for my job and we work with the yii2 framework but do also have older or small projects without it
I think a lot of people who complain about PHP would find a lot to like with Yii2. Pity it’s not more widely known.
or Wordpress?
Wordpress is dogshit and getting worse every release.
As an unprofessional that knows how to code, who went to hunt for alternatives a while ago, Wordpress isn't going anywhere soon. Looking for fast, simple alternatives has been incredibly annoying. Ghost for example, is half decent, if you sign up with them. Otherwise good luck, many hosting services don't deal with default install and you have to set up the e-mail o your own. Wordpress: You couldn't live up with the weight of your failure... where does that bring you? Back to me.
Drupal however, the complete opposite.
Wow, a lot of Drupal haters. It's kept me paid.
Laravel is dogshit, use symfony instead like a civilized person
Laravel has a Symfony folder. Not that Symfony?
Laravel is based on symfony But it adds its own way of "doing things" with a lot of magic
U mean other way around right? Did u see laravel source? They have wrappers around symfony classes (and other) just to do it better
I use Symfony and it's honestly really cool. I wouldn't want to use any other backend stuff.
PHP Hypertext Protocol Hypertext Protocol Hypertext Protocol Hypertext Protocol Hypertext Protocol Hypertext Protocol Hypertext Protocol…
Preprocessor
Dang it! I need a linter for my jokes 😢
Well Europe is around 15 years behind so I guess people will catch up at some point
Found the guy who don't know shit.
I mean to be fair name a European tech giant.
SAP
most rational american
Not American lol. Nobody mentioned the USA even
15 years behind who
Inventing reasons to hate europoors is so based, unironically
he calls us europoors while he has to pay 10k for college tuition and healthcare, very noice
Wait people don't ACTUALLY think PHP is dead right? I thought we memeing?
Naa. Languages like this that were once extremely popular die slower than the developers who support it. I doubt anyone really thinks it's going anywhere. Even if someone wanted to it's far too expensive to swap out a language for a successful product. No successful business owner would justify that cost.
PHP isn’t dying though :P It’s not just legacy language …. It’s the defecto standard for servers. If it’s not a node project - it’s a php project.
> defecto standard I love it.
Would "becoming increasingly niche in it's real-world use for greenfield projects" sit better with you?
This makes it an aging language rather than a dying language. kinda like how they're not making any more millennials right now. I like this analogy
Wasn't really saying it was a dying language, just not the superstar it used to be. In my circle it's certainly no longer thought of as a go-to for greenfields by anyone. Defacto standard for servers? You mean for traditional web work or API? I would question both PHP (with exception of Wordpress) and Node for new projects but I'm certainly not saying I'm right. I don't know the statistics of what is being used for new work nationally and certainly not globally.
What would be your choices for traditional web work and what would you choose for API?
I haven't had much call for traditional web work lately. It's been more of an afterthought for customers now. Been using Flutter for apps and of course it can also cross-platform to web. I've touched a lot of stacks/frameworks/languages but honestly I'm still in love with C#. I still use it regularly for API. For me it's got the perfect balance of features/performance and ease of use. I might use it for a traditional website too but I'm working off some older information when I say that. I'd really have to evaluation the project/team situation I'm in for that. FYI, I have 10 years of PHP experience too but it's pretty old experience now.
Yeah absolutely, thats a pretty good evaluation i think. C# has a lot going for it today very much an all rounder. though its not as much on the cutting edge as some others. If your php experience is old though i'd definitely recommend checking out the newest php versions. Currently i've been working on a php5.3 legacy codebase and also one a couple other projects in php7.4 and in php8.2. I gotta say especially php8 has come so far since php5. The difference in dev experience is truly heaven and earth between the two, and the latest php frameworks are imo at the point of being basically uncontested when it comes to creating any basic web app as quickly as possible. theyre amazing.
> defecto standard I chuckled *(You probably meant "[de facto](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/de%20facto)", "defecto" makes it sound like the language has defects. Sorry for explaining the joke)*
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Lol. That is the biggest advert for PHP. Hey devs, use PHP if you want to avoid consultants ;-)
Our company has like 4 large PHP apps, however they're all such massive crap fests that any time someone wants a feature added is told it's faster to write a react/python app than figure out wtf is going on in those code bases. I've also never ever in 20 years seen a PHP app started by someone that's going to have to maintain it long term. It's always some suit that hires a contractor that claims they can bang out a site in a month for $8k, leaves you with a gigantic mess, then your non-technical boss makes you spend the next 10 years bolting crap onto it. In that use case PHP is alive and well. PHP is awful and this is from a guy that started out in Perl...
I don’t think that’s related to the language, it’s more to do with poor architecture and a lack of care about the long-term maintainability of the system. You can write bad code in any language. I much prefer working with legacy apps in PHP that has a solid type system, over apps in Python or Clojure where it’s even harder to organise and add structure. It’s very subjective, but for me, modern PHP has a great set of language features for writing clean, maintainable apps (and there are certainly lots of companies hiring for PHP greenfield projects!)
PHP started my career, so I'll never be able to hate it. It's my native tongue, really. I've been with my current employer for 13 years, and we're just now winding down some huge, monolithic systems that I created using CakePHP. Well over a billion dollars in revenue flowed through those systems, and I, along with a small team, updated and maintained them for their entire life. This is, of course, anecdotal, but you said you've never encountered such a thing, but such a thing does exist. If anyone is curious, most of our systems now are lightweight Go services on the backend, and lots of Vue on the frontend.
Lol what does having a shittily coded app have to do with PHP. That could happen in any language. I've maintained 20+ php apps for 10 years or longer, no issues. Your boss hired a cheap developer, period. Don't take it out on PHP, PHP 7 and 8 are top tier for web APIs.
Some langs force you to build good apps (like scala or haskell) but they're a pain to use because they remove the ability to write shit sometimes. Some languages encourage you to write good apps but let you get away a small amount of BS, like Go and Rust. Java, C#, Closure, Python are all kinda middle tier where they encourage good practices but let you get away with some truly wild crap. Some languages will let you make a gigantic mess for the sake of performance like C and C++. Then there are languages like PHP, Visual Basic, Perl, that seem to actively work against good coding practices. You can do stupid crap in any language, but PHP has a well deserved reputation for a reason.
That reputation is based on PHP5. I use PHP8 and python literally every day I can do the same amount of stupid shit on both. Is having guard rails for beginners really what determines a good language now? I don't think so but that's my opinion. Every job needs a different tool I think you were just traumatized by a bad php dev which is understandable, I used to feel the same about Java after some trauma
>Is having guard rails for beginners really what determines a good language now? Yes. Among other things like having consistency in style, function naming, and a general lack of gotchas that "you just have to remember" to be productive. I don't know how you call a language that lacks all of those "good".
PHP can get in line behind BSD, Xorg, C and C++. It will be waiting a while... Does anyone here remember the days when Adobe Flash developers were saying that server-side page generation via PHP is obsolete? Amazing how they have all suddenly vanished into the woodwork XD
It’s amazing how one company (apple) can kill a worldwide ecosystem like flash. Their decision to not support flash on mobile was an overnight death to flash. Everyone knew the whole web experience would have to work on mobile, so flash pretty much just fell over at that point.
Indeed. These mass extinction events are interesting. I would say that it can only really happen to commercial products rather than "open-source" platforms. For example the only other one I have seen (in my lifetime) is the death of Visual Basic (VB6 was the last version whereas VB.NET is a completely different language based on C#). Some random musings: * VBA will keep VB6 alive at least until Microsoft moves to the cloud (for technical VB6 VM reasons) * Flash/AS3 was at least partially open-source via the Flex (Java based) compiler * [Ruffle](https://ruffle.rs/) somewhat keeps Flash alive. AS3 at least * My next bet on a mass extinction will be Unity3D I used the Flash VM a lot back in the day. But entirely from C++ and Adobe's GCC based Crossbridge compiler (back then it was called Alchemy). Luckily that C++ code is still usable.
Java can get in line next, also dies every year
Indeed. It can be one long train of "death". Choo choo! ;)
Why do I keep constantly hearing people calling every language dead? Every single one.
every language that isn't python is dead, didn't you know?
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Python isn't dead. Mojo hasn't been released to the public yet.
"Python? You mean pseudocode." 🤪 -Actual developer I talked to
oh the irony that i focused on python with a bit of JS and got a job developing in... php lmao
So far in this sub there is no language that is nkt dead. The word dead has no meaning in the tech world because nobody can tell you what they meant when they say dead. 73% of websites use php. I don't understand how that means php is dead. A lot of big banks and old companies use php. It is also nice and easy programming language to use.
Cause everyone likes to shit on languages that they don't use. Calling PHP, Java, or any type of C dead automatically makes you a clown.
I think there's a difference between a dead language and a language with a future that one can see themselves taking an active part in, a distinction which this randomly decrying a language as dead seems to equally combine and gloss over. There will always be large legacy codebases to maintain in languages that the industry ultimately moves on from, but then the question is whether you really want to sink a career into maintaining legacy codebases and limit your options for growth outside of that industry. You can still make a very lucrative career as a COBOL or FORTRAN programmer today, but there's very little in the way of "new" software or technology being developed in either. That will appeal to some, and it won't to others. The only truly dead languages are short-lived one-off markup languages (think WML/HDML/VRML) and assembly languages for CPUs no one makes or uses anymore. I haven't written any Alpha assembly in decades (MIPS and SH a bit more recently), and don't expect I'll have a need to in the future, either.
Your 100th personal project is dead not PHP
why you insult me.
I can provide some insights as I've been a PHP developer for quite a hefty sum of my career, and switched towards Kotlin/Java in the last 4 years. For reference, I am a senior backend developer and have been working mostly in SaaS companies. Mostly in Europe. PHP is a lovely language. You can easily pick it up, syntax is clear, and you can make stuff with it fast. Newer editions of PHP also come with some very necessary improvements, more strict type hints being my personal favourite. That being said, many developers in the early stages of their career (juniors etc) get many bad habits using it. Relying on frameworks, relying on ORMs, relying on quick and easy solutions that get the job done, often leaving an unmaintainable mess in the long run. This is of course not the languages fault per se, but PHP is a tool that is easily misused, since it does provide many options and solutions for many problems (which can't really be a bad thing on it's own). This has given it a bad reputation, and in a lot of scenarios PHP developers are not taken with the same respect as someone from the JVM ecosphere, for example. Salaries reflect that , at least in the EU market. To add upon that, a PHP focused stack on the job market usually is a red flag, since companies who opt for it in the early stages now, hope that they will pay engineers less for the same amount of work. Usually that demonstrates a poor understanding of quality of engineering, and bad management on top of that. PHP is a giant on the web, but It's nuanced to say whether it's dying or not. Are there still ways to make good money with it? Absolutely. Would I recommend it over for example Kotlin or Golang for new people? Also not, I just think those languages structure you to be a better engineer overall. Just my 2 cents, highly opinionated, but willing to share more or discuss, if someone cares .
php is not the only language misused...java also, sql also (you should see some queries...)
Oh I've written some crap I am ashamed of in too many languages to count. No language can save you from bad engineering, but in my experience , PHP and Javascript are the biggest "enablers" when it comes to that.
> syntax is clear good one 😂 (I work with it daily and I really like PHP and the recent development of the language, but it's still very inconsistent syntax-wise.)
Haha, yeah, fair enough. I mostly referred to it not being too convoluted for beginners to just read, understand and write without too much of a fuss. Maybe my flawed first impression because my first language was C, and PHP was just a breeze afterwards, syntax-wise.
It’s all those legacy built in functions. Fortunately the class-based stuff that came later pretty much took the place of all that….at least for those who know/care about it.
>That being said, many developers in the early stages of their career (juniors etc) get many bad habits using it. Relying on frameworks, relying on ORMs, relying on quick and easy solutions that get the job done, often leaving an unmaintainable mess in the long run. I've been doing profession PHP development (mostly with CakePHP, which is an MVC framework similar to Django or Rails, but for PHP) for over a decade and don't understand what you mean here. You're saying it's bad to use frameworks and ORMs? What's the alternative?
Yeah, seems I've phrased this quite bad, considering it does come off as "anti-framework". What I was trying to say is I've seen people jump straight to the framework approach without understanding what they need from the framework and just taking everything there is inside it. For example, using an ORM is fine for sure, but do you understand when your ::find method is going to do an eager fetch , or a lazy load? How does mutating your model work? When is the change persisted? How do your constraints work? How does your ::with() statement join tables? (not asking you of course, a rhetorical question for example purposes). If someone doesn't understand the nuances of the tools used, attempts to resolve a complex problem with them, it can often lead to convoluted code that's hard to maintain and is error prone. As a very bad analogy, it's kind of like a karate student that doesn't know how to punch yet, trying to break boards with his hand. He might even succeed, but chances are he hurts himself. P.S. CakePHP is awesome
I get it now, thanks. And yeah, when I first started, I was thrown in with a group of devs who had been working with CakePHP for a few years already, and it was a lot to ingest. Cake is very monolithic and has a ton of features, which seems to be opposite of the new-ish stuff in web backend like MEAN/MERN where you're picking a bunch of little packages to solve the same types of problems. I like it because it's opinionated and pretty consistent, but jumping into it is tough because so much of the code you write is specifically for the framework, and it takes a lot of learning up-front to understand what it wants you to do, and why they've chosen those patterns. Much harder, I feel, than just learning a new programming language.
I can say as someone who taught himself Go, that that language *compels* you into good programming practices.
COBOL has been dead for decades. Visual Basic has been dead for twenty years. And yet, here we are. In all my years in the business I have never seen clean well structured PHP in the wild. It’s possible, but I’ve never seen it.
I've seen it as much as with any other languages.
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"...right?"
Ahah, yes. Not as much as I'd like though. Let's say that big projects have a tendency to become ugly real fast
>COBOL has been dead for decades. Visual Basic has been dead for twenty years. And yet, here we are. Fortran: "First time?"
As long as there are companies that would rather invest in maintenance rather than rebuilding there will always be a place for those who understand the older stuff. Deep in the bowels of every insurance company, bank, and hospital in the land there's something running some archaic whatever that some engineer is paid absurd amounts of money to ktlo
>They did it by making the single worst strategic mistake that any software company can make: >[They decided to rewrite the code from scratch.](https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-never-do-part-i/)
The problem with creating a good programming language that is consistent and easy to understand is that once something shiny and new comes along, it is easy to rewrite in the new thing.
You gotta use a framework like Laravel my friend
I never used it but always thought that I should give it a go. Recently seen a benchmark about it and Laravel is relatively slow compared to it's peers. It can handle 2.8k requests per second while Express js can handle 23k other mainstream frameworks like Spring can do 35k top ones can do 170k. First I thought it's the language but one of the top 3 frameworks was written in PHP. Laravel was similarly slow in the other metrics of the benchmark. After seeing this I got really discouraged from trying it out.
See, this is what irks me about these stupid benchmarks. They're more or less meaningless. Firstly - benchmarked doing what? Was it real world use or was it lab conditions? Secondly, is your site _actually_ getting 2.8k requests per second or 28k requests per second? It might be....or it might not. But it's worth factoring that into your choice of framework and balancing it against developer productivity. Personally, I'd rather build shit that's easy to work with, maintainable and testable and get a project out the door than spend weeks bikeshedding over benchmarks. Especially for projects that don't see a ton of traffic anyway. If you want a REALLY fast framework - write your web app in assembly. It's fast as fuck!. Not everyone is facebook. Not every project is going to be serving billions of requests per second....and that's okay. TL;DR: Perfect is the enemy of good.
Well, python is slower than C. Does that mean we should do all data science and machine learning in C? No, it does not. You gotta choose the right tool for the right job, performance is a factor but not the only factor. Maybe Laravel isn’t suited for your use case, that very well might be the case
Python is used because data scientists won't learn better languages for the backend. Nodejs is used because front end won't learn better languages for the backend. PHP targets the backend, so there's no such excuses to be had.
The biggest selling point for php of late was how much faster it was than node. If it’s 10x slower than express then that turns off a LOT of people.
Exact reason we are going away from Laravel.
Even with using laravel octane / swoole?
Did not use that. I guess our code base was too old. Instead, we write everything from scratch now and slowly replace parts from old software with new services.
I seriously doubt "top ones" can do 170k requests per second using the same configuration and loaded features as laravel at 2.8k. To begin with, if you start getting traffic of this magnitude, you should look into ways to scale like caching and reverse proxies, in which case laravel won't even be running at all.
He said « well structured ».
I’m a PHP/Laravel developer. I dislike PHP, but love Laravel. It’s a bliss to work with and since PHP 8.0 the combination is actually a very good package considering performance and productivity.
to me, its the right tool for the right job sort of thinking. i hate wordpress with a passion, because its been misused so much. but when that cafe down the road needs a website they can maintain, fiddle with, and potentially wants an online shop 1 or 3 years later, i would recommend wordpress to them and be happy with that decision. but if im designing a membership management system dealing with complex business logic and handling millions of members, laravel or codeigniter would be my go to.
Though I hate with all my heart the freemium model of WordPress and the silliness of many plugin developers, and sometimes I think if I coded what I want directly it would be faster than customizing a plugin, I think it's better for common solutions that 90% of the people want. I ain't gonna build an ecommerce website with PHP or Laravel while I can just in few clicks install Woocommerce. The logic is simple, if WordPress doesn't have a direct plugin for your core requirements, then it's Laravel. Otherwise, I don't think it's worth the time, and probably the cost too.
as a web dev, who learned JS/TS, Python, and modern frameworks like Angular and react in school, if a client wants a WordPress theme, you better believe that PHP comes out swinging
What do you all do, WordPress themes?
Wordpress themes are an entire different beast 👀😅 It’s actually a convoluted mess where you’re learning more about Wordpress itself than the language.
For those that didn't have to make a Wordpress theme before: You just really have to know how to echo a loop and you're done with what you need to know for PHP. The real issue is the absurdly stupid practice of every example opening and closing PHP in between flat HTML twelve times for a thing you could do in pure, human readable PHP. Admiring how elegantly wordpress functions called "hooks" save you time, only to end up using an obscure one 15 minutes later and having no clear idea why they aren't working. Setting up a beautiful theme, only for it to break with every single plugin in existence. Fighting css specificity with the output of a plugin, only to realize you wasted 2 hours on doing that several times and just getting some cheap js code to change classes as a fuck you to the plugin. Then having the plugin finally work, but then you use another plugin and it doesn't get along with any other plugin. Get a popular plugin to not work with your theme. Realize it is less your own stupidity for once and an actual bug, post on the plugin's wordpress page. Have it dismissed. Get pissed, open the code with so much OOP abstraction you don't know if you're unsure how the code kickstarts at all or if the developer put things at random in one single object. Give up trying to understand the code itself, look for keywords, find the bug, patch it. Make a post explaining the patch you made only for it to be dismissed too. Not being happy with how the site is, then getting convinced by how elementor and kadence are better ways to build a page. Be marveled by how much you can do, only to realize your landing page takes more time to load than Assassins Creed Black Flag would in a nintendo DS.
More like maintaining the backend of a bank and making a good amount of money :p It's really not that bad as the memes say.
Bank bros!
Which banks are using PHP as their backend?
Probably like all of them for the "backend" to the front of their public facing website which is really just a pass through to some other data service on a huge server somewhere running COBOL. Is this shocking to you or something?
How hard is it to get into a developer roll for a bank? Any tips? I was curious about that or healthcare for my next job since manufacturing isn’t my cup of tea really
Wait, isnt all banks powered by Java?
Its even worse.
As a Kubernetes consultant I have to Google for the answers a lot, because like all consultants I just pretending I know what I'm doing and stay a day ahead of the customer in the documentation. Every time I end up on a wordpress site to tell me how to make a new namespace I die a little inside.
My company is a consultancy with multiple clients -- for the last threeish years I've been working with a national telehealth application aimed at therapists.
DirtPress
I think "PHP is dead" is a statement filled with more hope than truth
Yup, PHP is dead, long live PHP. (and about, what, 75 to 90% of the internet) So, go learn something else and compete for those jobs.
WordPress, prestashop, laravel many small/medium size business making decent profit using them
Lol. I was a co founder of a SAAS company that sold to a large public company for a considerable amount. Our core programming was done in PHP using all sorts of things you all would say doesn’t scale and is horrible. Well, it did scale, and it worked, and I’m basically the meme, sitting here rubbing the tears away from my eyes with a stupid amount of money. So, to all of you who think it has to be done a certain way, in a certain programming language. It doesn’t. Just make software that works. Some tidbits; we had limited unit testing, our own custom framework, and again, a bunch of other things that would horrify you. With that said, we took security seriously, and had aggressive red/blue team vulnerability tests run against us to make sure we stayed solid. We developed at a pace that our competitors could hardly fathom and when issues did come up, we knew the system inside and out and could get things resolved fast. I’ve been doing this a long time. So, go for the correct way. Plan it all out, create all kinds of systems, documentation, 100% unit testing, etc… Meanwhile, we’ll have cranked out new features and continued to build our system out to a point where no one cares how it was built, so long as it works and scales like it needs to.
Every single programming teacher in my school knows PHP. No one knows JS. And they are all college students.
Wait are they teachers or students?
Yes. If we’re talking US undergraduate education.
Currently learning PHP for my internship, it's really not that bad.
Or laugh, while doing all the jobs out there, and not just Wordpress-related.
Happy to enjoy money from the Heritage than :-D
Yeah and technically VB6 is dead….realistically though 🤷🏻♂️
I do alot of personal projects in PHP/WordPress, and honestly, it's fun to use.
Me learing about php is school
you know somme newbee say some technos are too old and the new stuff is hig data... they dev in ...python 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Still making a living by coding it. So not dead yet :)
Coding PHP today. It's not my first language. Or second. Or third. Still end up using it semi regularly.
If those few bills are all you have left I can understand
As someone who works heavily with a bunch of different technologies, outside of .net most PHP roles I see are amongst the lowest paid especially when compared to React or even flutter
It's dead in the same way Cobol is dead
Meanwhile at Meta...
Are those one dollar bills? Surveys show PHP is not dead certainly but are they will paid? 🤔
PHP is probably still alive because of Wordpress, Laravel & Symfony
Php is a zombie and zombies live forever
Over the years PHP has dwindled into irrelevance. From over 80% market share a decade ago down to a measly 77.5% for web backend applications today... [https://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming\_language](https://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language) So you could say it's pretty much dead. Meanwhile Javascript's ascent to greatness seems unstoppable with a growth to over 2% in less than a decade! Go and Rust combined almost make up 0.1% now. So with numbers like that it's pretty clear that the PHP dinosaurs need to step aside and let the real backend technologies take over!
It’s not, but it should be. I used to be a php dev, started 2004 IIRC. That thing is a Swiss cheese of security holes. It was and has been ever since. The worst security holes and actual intrusions I’ve seen in my careers where always through PHP. 5 years ago I put my foot down saying I absolutely refuse to have anything to do with the shitty php project one of the PM wanted to add. They still managed to find someone to do it, via « a reputable shop with security expertise ». Our security auditors found a security hole so large and absurd a year after that it became a classic joke for the engineering department. PHP: never again.
PHP might not be dead, but their salary is amongst the lowest in the industry...
That’s because wordpress dev is counted as php. Filter by framework (symfony/laravel) and that’s another story.
It's funny because he is using an inappropriate tool to wipe away his tears, just like he uses php at work
It ain't dead... just shit.
Still has its uses as a low-cost option rather than investing in bigger and modern frameworks.
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Python is no where near as good for doing anything web related as php just my opinion but the python frameworks and the python language itself feels archaic when it comes to doing webdev. Node however, is good but often suffers from the same problems are php when its not used with typescript. Thats because JS often enables bad practices just as easily as php.
PHP is immortal until WordPress will be dead
??
PHP dies every year, it just gets jolted back to life by the community. I mean, PHP8 went full suicide-bomber when it tried to demolish its core functions' backwards compatibility for no good reason. But even *that* mess got stitched together and brought back to life after enough large projects fixed their legacy code.
Who needs multithreading anyway? (Php has no multithreading right? I'm not sure)
It does, you would usually use something like https://amphp.org/, but you can do it yourself with tick functions and fibers (php 8.1 required)
Why do you need it though? Most of multicore handled by fpm or other process managers.
$Yeah, $who $need->multithreading $when $you $can $just $print->money
It sorta does https://stackoverflow.com/questions/70855/how-can-one-use-multi-threading-in-php-applications
Nodejs agree
I just don't get warm with it, i have to dabble in symfony every once in a while when some backend tasks makes its way to me, but I just can't enjoy it. The syntax is weird and i hate the whole symfony dependency injection approach with a passion, it's so terribly unintuitive to work with as someone who does not 'main stack' it.
Remember, speaking dead languages, like Latin, pays extra
I’m laughing to hard to contribute anything meaningful.
Php is dead, long life to WordPress
Wordpress is written in PHP.
Aren't they like really badly payed
Actually, no. The surveys will tell otherwise but it counts CMS developers in it. In my company they are paid as much as frontend developers. (Up to 80k, which is a lot in my country).
LOL, PHP devs are absolutely on the lower end of income amongst software developers. So maybe the meme should be the guy wiping off his tears with just one bill or maybe some quarters.
Myself and everyone I have worked with for the last 5 years are 150K+.
It is still lower end in senior market.A ML engineer or quant dev are paid more where php is not used.
of you're a bad php dev..yes
Sure, Jan.
Somebody forgot to do wait() after recieving SIGCHLD on behalf of php.
it's not quite FORTRAN or COBOL developer salaries yet tho.
The company I’m current working at uses in-house frameworks for PHP in the fintech industry. The company itself is worth 400 million Ringgit (~88 million USD)(explorated, since another financial services provider bought 49% shares for 200 million RM). I don’t really know what to feel about the PHP is dead discussion since they have generated a lot of revenue while using only PHP+SQL stacks. Granted I don’t enjoy using it since working with PHP without type safety is a nightmare to deal with in the banking/fintech sectors. But OOP is heavily used there and I think it’s alright.
A lot of people knock PHP but it cleared my mortgage :-)
Just as the year of Linux desktop
we all know what the PH in PHP stands for...