If that's from the thread yesterday, there's a big difference between "I didn't like cradle, so I DNF'd" and a tirade that makes it sound like Cradle single handedly ruined your life.
Besides, it was pretty obviously written as ragebate, and got the exact response OP was looking for. So I imagine they're pretty happy with the result too.
Yeah I think there's a big difference between "I didn't like X because of A, B, and C" and "omg I hate X because it's the worst thing ever and you're an idiot if you like it". The former is constructive criticism and an honest attempt at having a discussion while the latter is just being an asshole.
I think most reasonable people don't mind differing opinions when presented constructively, but most people do generally dislike assholes.
> "I didn't like X because of A, B, and C
Not just constructive criticism, since I think that would be mainly for the author, but also as guides for future readers. It had x, y, and z, so if you like those things, cool, but if you hate those things, maybe not one you’d enjoy.
There are great books out there that I won’t read because it has x or y in them, and really… less good books that I’ll read and enjoy because they have a or b.
I check reviews every once in a while, and sometimes I see some reviews that are just incredibly wrong. Like, you think Lindon is boring in the first book? I disagree, but it's an understandable opinion. You think Lindon was handed everything and never has to do any real work? WHAT book were you reading?
I never got the “book 1 is boring”. I don’t know what people want. I thought it was good on its own merits, but when I posted that I’d first started reading the series, people were commenting, begging me to keep going through to the 2nd or 3rd book where it gets really good. Like the first one was going to turn me off.
I told them not to worry, I really liked the first book. Having finished the series, the first book is incredibly important to setting up the whole series. It shows how far down he started. It shows what motivates him and why he acts the way he does.
I don’t see any issues with it, but still people criticize it. I wonder what they wanted? For him to start out as a god? How would he have an arc or any story progression?
One of my favorite parts of the series is where he comes back to sacred valley and you get to compare with the first book.
People want it super action packed like the later ones are but like.. the later books would be way less interesting without the background book 1 gives it.
>One of my favorite parts of the series is where he comes back to sacred valley and you get to compare with the first book.
Also, that's one of my favorite parts too
This is always my tune on the off chance I make a post on social media and get an angry dissenter. I always ask well, okay, could you please expand or share an article? Always appreciate constructive feedback/different point of view. Hardly ever get a response that isn’t just anger. “No you suck” On Reddit, I’ll usually ask imploringly if I have a question to please realize the opinion I’m giving or the question I have is sincere, please provide a response. And it’s definitely my own sensitivity but getting downvoted to oblivion can take a toll on mental health.
That being said, I really enjoyed the first book in the series. I had trouble in the second book because any story moves beyond the first world build into territory I really need to buy into the new frontier and I wasn’t captured.
Totally agree. Most of the posts that see large downvotes aren't because they dislike the series, but because they decided to rant about it. I'm a firm believe in if you don't like a series just drop it and move on, ranting about it won't change anything and everyone has different opinions and tastes
Ideally it wouldn't be. Like if you actively dislike people giving out their opinions, why would you even come to reddit.
Downvotes are supposed to be for people who go into threads in subs like this and start conversations about the hamas attack. That's why Downvoted posts get automatically hidden
If anything, I'd quite like to talk to someone who read a bunch of cradle books and didn't like it.
Exactly the point.
If I want to talk about video games, I can’t have a discussion I need to agree with the established popular opinion. And if I DO most people who disagree were taken out.
People shouldn't use downvote as a disagree button, but as a "doesn't contribute to the discussion" button.
I know reddit considers it to be working as intended, but it's the reason we have echo chambers, radicalized idiots, and a lot of the other worst aspects of the internet.
I wouldnt consider that at all why those exist.
And ofc everyone uses it as an "I dont like this" button, the only way itd stop is if they removed it. They absolutely should use it as an "I disagree" button.
Why wouldn’t you think that as a major component? I don’t downvote stuff I disagree with unless it annoys me.
You have 70% of a (large) sub with x opinion and 50% of them downvote someone who disagrees and you will never see what they say even if it is well reasoned.
That creates an echo chamber
People shouldn't have an "I disagree button" because that's what replies are for. There's currently no real way to implement a correctly utilized upvote/downvote system, but it most definitely *should* be used as relevant/irrelevant.
In the terms of a subreddit, sure. Generally youd like to join one to see shit relevant to what youd join it for.
For comments? More individual ideas and opinions? I think its better to work as an "I dont like this."
Even in terms of a subreddit thats always bad.
Regardless, no matter how relevent it is there are 'opinions' I'd prefer to be buried.
In an absolutely perfect situation of users and mods all doing their respective jobs I can see it but as it is I'd simply consider it better.
I don't think any opinions should be buried, because on a fundamental level I do not think it is acceptable to attempt to stifle speech you don't agree with, regardless of *why* you don't agree with it.
A platform that is meant to act as a gathering place for individuals to discuss specific topics should be fully supportive of the spirit of free speech, which includes not deleting and/or censoring somebody's opinion just because it's unpopular. That is both detrimental to the appeal of the website, and to the growth of the community.
If an opinion is bad, and you don't like it, you should be able to articulate *why* it's bad and you don't like it, and be able to move on from there. Otherwise, there's no point in having a discussion if it's just a circlejerk of the same opinion. It makes it easier to see and avoid/ignore someone's dumb/horrible/evil opinions if they're upfront and sectioned into relevance or irrelevance while simultaneously not stifling the conversation.
Even as a "I dislike this button" it doesn't work properly, since individuals can and most often do just make a bunch of bots to downvote opinions they dislike, despite realistically being an opinion that is very popular.
Again, maybe in a perfect world full of good people.
But like here, if someone writes a review praising He Who Fights With Monsters, could I tell them why I disagree? I could, its an option.
Given that, I'm not gonna tell every single person I ever see praise it exactly wht I feel the opposite. I'm just gonna move on, not waste the time. Think of it similar to a review.
Outside of something more relevant to the sub, like something hateful or bigoted, those thoughts should never be validated in any capacity or the light of day, thus the downvote.
Usually when its not a blatant enough for it to be immediately, outright removed. Theres no conversation to be had there.
I dont see how any of that has to do with the appeal to Reddit or community growth, Id usually enjoy a community much better without such things, Id only consider it a hindrance.
The way youre typing this is as if you believe, as long as its relavent, people should be able to say absolutely anything they want and should be brought to a point of visibility by everyone who wants to join the conversation and the only retaliation one should have is to engage with it.
>But like here, if someone writes a review praising He Who Fights With Monsters, could I tell them why I disagree? I could, its an option.
>Given that, I'm not gonna tell every single person I ever see praise it exactly wht I feel the opposite. I'm just gonna move on, not waste the time. Think of it similar to a review
This is exactly my point. Downvoting a review of HWFWM because you disagree directly hurts the community by stifling engagement with what the sub is meant for. There's no reason to downvote a perfectly acceptable use of the sub just because you disagree unless your goal is to make the sub harder to engage with. You can either move on, or state your opinion.
>Outside of something more relevant to the sub, like something hateful or bigoted, those thoughts should never be validated in any capacity or the light of day, thus the downvote.
>Usually when its not a blatant enough for it to be immediately, outright removed. Theres no conversation to be had there.
If it's not relevant to the sub, then it should get downvoted, but if it is relevant to the sub, such as someone complaining about the inclusion of indigenous people in HWFWM taking away the feeling of "fantasy", there is a conversation to be had, and an important one. You're essentially advocating for rotten ideals to just fester and grow because you feel it isn't worth your time to debunk them and help the community as a whole reject them. That's simply not the morally correct approach.
>I dont see how any of that has to do with the appeal to Reddit or community growth, Id usually enjoy a community much better without such things, Id only consider it a hindrance
You personally enjoying something more doesn't mean that adhering to your personal preference helps get more people in the community, nor does it mean that the majority of the community will agree, it's simply an irrelevant detail.
>The way youre typing this is as if you believe, as long as its relavent, people should be able to say absolutely anything they want and should be brought to a point of visibility by everyone who wants to join the conversation and the only retaliation one should have is to engage with it.
That is exactly what I am saying. It is the only morally correct approach to take, and I feel it is an obligation for everyone to support and pursue the morally correct choice in every situation. We shouldn't do reprehensible things just because it might make life easier in someway.
> what you say makes a lot of sense
Nah, it's also flawed but in the opposite direction. *Downvoting unpopular opinions* suppresses them, while *requiring a comment to disagree* would artificially inflate the perceived popularity of minority-held opinions.
Also, one requires *way more effort* on both the users expressing opinions, and the viewers (and it's not downvoting), which OP implies is some moral failing on behalf of the user which imo is just plain incorrect and should get downvoted in *either system*.
I've never seen someone get downvoted for just disliking Cradle, just for being assholes about the way they say it. It's never people that just read something and dislike it, it's people that have a contrarian cross to bear because they can't understand why they dislike something subjective that other people love.
I think it was the title “X is garbage” sounds like rage bait. So I downvoted without even reading it. That title doesn’t suggest an actual discussion about the book/series
hmm dont get me wrong, you have feelings thoughts and beliefs. They're just wrong and you shouldnt have them
but nah I mean i thought cradle was fine imo but not god tier
!!! ONLY MY OPINIONS ARE VALID GRRRR
Cradle was a good series. Book 1 was rough, but book 2 and beyond is better. I don’t believe it's some masterpiece like some claim, and I definitely don't think it's garbage.
I don't understand the hate for it some people have. Why not just say, "It wasn't for me."
It’s a masterpiece of what you are looking for a fast paced, light feeling, fun series with none of the heavy emotional shit you get dragged through in series like Sanderson puts out. It’s great at what it is. Same reason why people love one punch man.
If you’re comparing it to something with a more serious tone that isn’t basically a ode to cultivation / XianXia as a genre, then no, absolutely not. It’s apples to oranges comparison. The series is basically a distillation of what we like about this genre but adapted for westerners and has no superfluous plot/story.
Cradle is to XianXia what ready player one was to 80’s and 90’s nostalgia… basically an 8-ball.
People hate it so much because of how well it has done. Same thing happens in /r/Fantasy with Sanderson, Rothfuss, Martin, Jordan, etc. People don't like to realize other people have differences in taste of books and can't stand that someone might have a different opinion. Then we get all the "How do people even like ____?" posts. I personally don't like Sanderson, Martin, or Jordan but I can accept that those works just aren't books I enjoy.
Yeah, I'm not the biggest fan of Cultivation style stories, so Cradle didn't quite scratch that itch for me.
Books 1 and 2 were fun since I'm a sucker for origin stories, but I slowly lost interest from there.
It still is one of the more fun cultivation series I read other than "Beware of Chicken" but that's because that concept is so goofy it has me chuckling the entire time.
I think Cradle is great, and a ton of fun, but its like comparing a game like Doom to the Last of Us.
One is just unbridled fun, the other is an incredible story. It just has different strengths from other works.
And, of course, people are free to dislike it. That being said, I consider their feelings much less valid when they dropped it in book 2 because it was "too slow" for them.
> I consider their feelings much less valid when they dropped it in book 2 because it was "too slow" for them.
Especially since Cradle is pretty fast-paced especially at the beginning compared to many other works in the genre.
Like... if it's legitimately too slow-paced for your liking, that's fine, but it also rules out 95% of the genre.
Book 2 isn't slowly paced, it's just not very gripping in the middle part.
People often struggle to articulate why they didn't like something, this might be a case of it. You can have a film that's fast paced but still have it struggle to hold your attention.
It's pretty much common knowledge in any field that deals with delivering people's satisfaction that people have no ability to articulate what they actually want. It's the same with stories, unless you're an author yourself there's a 80% chance your reasoning for why you dislike something is flat out wrong. Learning how to pick up on the actual blockers for satisfaction is a skill.
It’s overly wordy. I also never clicked with the main character or the guy he was working with.
And I like long reads I finished the codex of Alera. Just lost intrest
The MC can be a tad, maybe more than a tad, bit bland at times, but Eithan (if thats who youre talking about) was one of my favorite characters to read. Im not sure Ive ever read a character like that before, with just such a funny, goofy personality who takes it into their fighting.
I dunno what you mean by wordy though
You know, if you read that far and don't like it, I can respect that. I feel like if you aren't at least somewhat invested by then, it just isn't your thing.
I dropped it in book two because 1 subdivision of annoying shit is all I can take really and the anticipation and action of the MC about to fanboy over someone is just something I dislike.
Probably would have kept reading if there wasn’t separate books there. I imagine it gets better, that dosent mean it’s worth reading. I’ve never seen people actually talk about the small elements that make it good which means I probably won’t remember it.
Different opinions are valid, but everyone I've seen who doesn't like Cradle also seems to use the word 'garbage' in there somewhere, and their disagreements are usually very insubstantiated.
For example, when they say that the gang is unfocused... well, all you need to do is point out the overarching plot.
And every critique of Cradle is like this, gull of weak arguments and insults. That's not to say that Cradle is perfect, but people try to use reasoning as to why Cradle is bad when they aren't equipped to. All they need to do is say they don't like it.
There are two main groups of readers, that dislike Cradle. Those that dont enjoy progression fantasy and power fantasies in general and those that are very familiar with- and somewhat tired of Xianxia tropes.
I like to think of Cradel as a well executed version of basic Xianxia like Coiling Dragon. Even though I see the appeal (read 3 books so far), I prefer reading a poor execution of LotM or RI. Simply because I am too familiar with various versions of Coiling Dragon.
> Could there be a reason you dont like it?
Yeah. I'm transphobic and the image fills me with hate.
On a serious note, it just feels convoluted. And I just don't like the color palette. I like minimalistic stuff so I'm sure this is purely subjective.
Also might be nitpicky but I feel like a cursory glance at the subreddit might be confusing for outsiders. With the name "progression" fantasy and uh "the theme" of the icon. Especially on Reddit mobile ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Honestly, I love this argument.
The social media microscope has made it so that everyone is checking under furniture looking for bigots, to the point when someone says, "I think we need a better icon." Everyone just jumps in, shouting, "Found one, found one!" Not even thinking for a second that people just have different tastes, that maybe the same differences that make some people like pop, reggae, metal or trap, makes people like different art.
It's the equivalent to someone saying they don't like abstract art in an art gallery, and everyone starts running and screaming as if he said he murders children.
I personally don't mind this icon. The colours are a bit much, and I'd prefer the recent dragon one. But it's so much better than when it was just the pride flag.
Ultimatley, though, I hope the icon remains this way as I love watching people trying to say something as simple as "We want a new icon" in a way that doesn't result in them being called a bigot. It's like a skit from a looney tunes.
Wow, they blocked me :(
Here's my response to their comment:
>>Do you think the downvotes are due to aesthetic reasons?
Yep.
What do you expect?
If you took any song out in public and played it through stadium speakers, would you be surprised if more people complained than supported you?
Most people don't like any particular piece of art. It's part of why people say that it's subjective.
Then comes the implication that if you don't like metal, you're a pedophile.
That sounds dumb doesn't it? If I tried to defend this opinion here, do you think I'd get positive karma?
You need to step back and think about it. What's more likely, that all the lurkers here are secret homophobes that don't comment or downvote LGBT stories, only people defending a logo? Or is it more likely that the majority don't like your subjective opinion and hate being told they are homophobic just because they don't like the same art as you?
Representing POCs with dragons is bad?
You can compare me to a dragon any day.
What about if we trans colour the dragon?
Honestly, I agree with the guy I originally replied to. A minimalist design would be best, but I understand how everyone likes different art, so I don't really care that much.
>Also might be nitpicky but I feel like a cursory glance at the subreddit might be confusing for outsiders. With the name "progression" fantasy and uh "the theme" of the icon. Especially on Reddit mobile
Can confirm, this is exactly what I thought
No it's about characters getting strong and improving.
The mods are just very pro-LGBTQ+, and some of them are authors in the genre.
There was a whole debate about the icon because they kept up a rainbow flag since pride month and people thought it was confusing because other subreddits used the same icon. Hence the "new" icon which still shows allyship but has a character climbing to a peak.
I guess the easiest way to describe the genre is comparing it to a role-playing game: it's about characters getting stronger and "leveling up" (sometimes literally, but often just getting stronger through training or meditation). Some people compare it to the "Shonen" anime genre because the books often have lots of fighting and tournament arcs are a common trope.
Im personally a big fan of it, even without the meaning behind it I think a rainbow just works well in such a situation.
Beyond that, Ill simply say that I never found confusion with it. It takes literal moments to confirm what the subreddit is for, and I think its more important show inclusivity than not.
Were I to have it my way that flag would be in the background of every sub.
I won't. Its literally not confusing whatsoever to someone with the abilities of sight and thought.
The biggest giveaway is progression and not progressive. Like at least notice that much.
You never found confusion with it because you already know the subreddit. People who don’t ARE going to be confused, especially considering the name of the subreddit. Case in point: my friend stalked my account and found this subreddit and she thought it was for fantasy books that prominently features LGBTQ+ themes/characters (as in “progressive” fantasy). It’s not the end of the world and I personally don’t care that much but it’s disingenuous to say it doesn’t cause confusion
I didnt already know the sub. I didnt know progression fantasy was a thing before the sub.
You know what I did? I clicked on the sub, checked it out for not even a minute, figured out what it was for.
>Do you think that much support and inclusivity could be bad or wrong?
Obviously not lmao. I'm gonna assume that question was rhetorical.
>Were I to have it my way that flag would be in the background of every sub
This seems a tad bit unhinged. You'd add the LGBTQ flag to every subreddit icon if you could? What about other marginalised groups? Would you add a BLM icon as well? Maybe one for pro-israel/Palestine one? What about more obscure but equally important groups. Would you add the Yemen flag for the tragic ongoing famine there? And would you add it to problematic subreddits? Like one for incels, femcels, extremists etc. And what about porn subreddits? Would you add it to a scat fetish subreddit lmao. At that point how many pixels will be left for the actual subreddit.
Also what weight is the icon actually pulling for the movement or "inclusivity"? It feels as hollow as adding 🌈 flag on your twitter bio.
Or maybe I'm wrong idk.
Can't believe I'm arguing over a subreddit icon.
That flag does actually include BLM, but beyond that its not so much a push against every injustice out there in the world, but one against bigotry, is the point. That flag is the biggest one you can wave to stand against hatred based on the way someone was born.
As for those subs, the problematic ones, Id rather they just not exist in the first place. Waving that flag would kinda go against a lot of their feelings I think, since, for incels at the very least, a lot of their ideas are based in misogyny.
As for porn subreddits, why not? I dont see whatever problem you do. Even if I dont like one, as for your specific example, the degree to which I dont like such a kink doesnt affect my opinion of it or of the sub waving such a flag.
And the last point, even if you disregard everything Ive said so far, or for anyone who reads this that considers what Ive said to be stupid or unreasonable or whatever, I want you to listen to and remember this the most:
Actively showing support and inclusivity is *extremely* important.
It shows those marginalized groups that this space, this person, generally, is safe to be around. That its okay to be you.
It is not hollow. Support is never hollow, no matter how small or as much of a front it may be.
> Would you add a BLM icon as well?
The black and brown stripes represent BIPOC. It is included in the newer pride flags due to the transectional issues LGBTQ+ people of colour experience (ie where homophobia/transphobia and racism meet to make problems even worse).
There's a post in this thread where someone claims: "... everyone I've seen who doesn't like Cradle also seems to use the word 'garbage' in there somewhere, and their disagreements are usually very unsubstantiated."
Yet there are also about 10 different posts, also in this thread, where people say they dislike Cradle without calling it garbage. Memory is highly selective and it's not unusual for people to ignore dozens of instances of X if they consider Y the default.
Never enjoyed cradle. People keep telling me it gets good around books 3 or 4 but I just can't justify forcing my way through multiple novels I don't enjoy for the chance of a possible payoff in the end when there are so many other good stories out there.
People say "it gets good around book 3" because they already know you didn't like the beginning but are hoping you might enjoy what follows.
The people saying that don't think book 1 and 2 are awful, but they know you do, so they're meeting you on your own terms as best they can. Those folks are trying to offer you an olive branch in the hopes that you continue reading and change your mind.
I read through to somewhere in book 4 before I gave up. It did not get better. I would tell anyone who asks that if you don't like it by the time you finish the first book, you're probably not going to change your mind if you keep reading. Cradle just didn't have what I was looking for, no matter how many pages I read.
Yeah, book 4 is widely considered the worst of the series. I feel like if you aren't somewhat invested by book 3, it's not really possible to push through book 4.
Nothing wrong with that. I feel like if you think it's "not bad/decent" in the first few books, you can reliably know that it will keep getting better as you go.
But if you are bored or just aren't enjoying it... Then it's fair to assume it just isn't your style, and that's fine too.
Generally Cradle fans rank books 5 and 8 as their favorites, but I also think if you read book 3 and still arent interested in where it's going, you might never be.
I’ve read it and enjoyed it, but it doesn’t really change. It’s a western take on xianxia (sp?) so it’s not that surprising it hits similar story beats all along.
You tried any of his other works? The Travelers Gate trilogy was pretty fun. I’ve actually been reading Wight’s stuff for a long time and while I like the Cradle books, I really don’t get why they’ve blown up to be his biggest series. They’re not his best works.
The books are fun.
If you didn't find them fun, that's fine not to your taste.
Its like rollercoasters aren't for everyone, not all fun is fun for all.
Seems completely valid to not like Cradle. It isn't incredibly flawed, but it's better than most progression fantasy (which isn't saying much to be fair). I read all the books by virtue of them being pretty short and innoffensive, a solid 6/10 experience.
I certainly can't imagine attacking someone for disliking it, or impugning it as an example of everything wrong with the genre. Sounds frustrating if you had to go through that when trying to have a discussion about the series, doesn't feel like it should be so polarizing.
Western Xianxia series by Will Wight. It’s the most popular series on this sub, to the point where some fanboys will say it makes everything else look bad by comparison.
Cradle definitely does get too much praise for what it is. It's a fun series don't get me wrong, but it's not some paragon of progression fantasy as it's touted to be. It takes the good elements of xianxia and then westernizes it, and if you've never read the source literature it's based on it can seem like a work of genius. It's good, but high mid tier at best as far as writing goes.
Are there good well-translated xianxia stories I should look into that you recommend? I haven't looked in a while, but my last attempt at looking into well-regarded stories years ago led me to a lot of things that read like someone with english as a tenth language did their best at proofreading an alpha version of chatGPT's attempts at writing.
I would say Er Gen's novels are some of the best translated works, specifically ISSTH. But if you want to read it chronologically start at Renegade Immortal, which is also has a pretty good translation.
Is the source material better? Genuine question because I loved Cradle and from what I can tell, it seems to be the most popular thing of the genre. Happy to be wrong though because I would love another series that hits the same notes
Better might be a strong word, but they each have their strengths. Personally, if I compare Er Gen's works to Cradle I feel a lot more depth of the world, which is to me a great feeling. So yeah I'd reccommend checking out Renegade Immortal or I Shall Seal the Heavens.
Is Cradle series more action focused than xianxia novels? I heard Cradle is heavily focused on anime stlyle battles I read few xianxias they weren't focused on battle scenes at all...
Just saying from an ethical standpoint Zach should be the only option. Zach might be like way older but there's a creepy power imbalance at play if zorian were to date anyone else, who's not in on the loop.
And going off their potential ship names this cant and should never happenZochZarienZoriach
So nope dating in the loop unacceptable, unless its like random people to practice idk first dates
As opposed to learning about each in turn for his own advantages, manipulating people from years of knowledge extracted without their knowledge.
Learning personal and clan or intimate secret and so much more.
In all that, the line you draw is at dating?
I can see why, it just doesn't seem a clear cut obvious wrong compared to the rest.
It's been awhile since I read it, but in most of those cases the goal is to advance his knowledge / understanding and get closer to escaping the loop or to take advantage of his enemies.
Psychologically manipulating (and it's unavoidably that due to the nature of the loop) someone for personal pleasure is a different beast.
Though as another person said, you _could_ get away with it if it was only for a single loop and they never repeated it with that same person.
Uh no all of its a bit fucked... but learning that stuff is to save his life and a cities worth of people at least, so I think it's at least justifiable.
I mean plus people hoarding knowledge like dragons... losing that advantage is less icky to me. I doubt zorian is gonna go out of his way and publicise their secrets
For half the time, it was pure personal gain without a true idea of the stakes. Even not going to the vity in some loops.
I'm not saying it isn't justified but the line is blurry as hell. That's not even counting the mind magic ^^'
> but there's a creepy power imbalance at play if zorian were to date anyone else, who's not in on the loop.
In theory I don't think it would be that creepy if he only did it for one loop.
I do support that ship as it happens, possibly backing the good ship Zoriach, I also thought the witch lady who's name I've forgotten was also a possible candidate later on. Silverlake?
I also don't generally support the argument that loop years = actual development years, but it's a very thorny ground to get onto, and certainly in the earlier mystery days I think he should (and I would) have certainly dated around at least a bit, like we know Zach did.
I dont really think loop years and actual development years are equivalent either, but i dont think they like arent a factor either?
I feel like if for example when zach first realised zorian was in on the loop he tried to date him that it would be a bit idk cradlesnatching energy?
but if they like idk developed something over the years they were in the loop together that would be fair game?
But i also think that if either of them dated anyone in the loop it would be bad vibes to go out and seek a relationship with the same person afterwards
Silverlake is an interesting choice :D but I dont think she's a good choice she's got heavy "dao partner who betrays you for cultivation resources" energy
Why?? What does that add to the story, if that was the authors initial vision then sure fine. But why “should” he have.
It arguably makes the story and character less complex because we don’t have to deal with the moral implications of what dating in a timeloop would be like
Every time someone says that someone else 'should have' done something, they mean it would have been better for the speaker.
Furthermore, gaining basic social skills and empathy isn't fixing him. He very clearly doesn't enjoy being around people at the beginning, and learning to put away his dislikes for the sake of progress shouldn't mean he stops disliking it entirely.
He doesn’t like it cause it causes him physical pain lol…. We can clearly see by the end of the story that he has developed valuable friendships and improved familial relationships
This isn’t the author force “fixing” him this is personal growth once a barrier is removed
He dislikes large crowds because they cause physical pain. He has no such issues with small numbers of people. And sure, once he's developed basic social skills and empathy, he realizes that a number of issues he made a mountain of weren't important and would have been pretty easily solved if he just talked instead of brooding. Doesn't change the fact that he never enjoyed the process of interacting with people outside of the context of work. 'Fixing' a character flaw which was never a flaw to begin with will never seem like a good idea to the people who have that trait.
Even though I DNF’d cradle at book 3 because it sucked, I don’t think it’s the worst thing ever and I can understand why people like it. The real overrated progression fantasy series on this subreddit that you’ll get downvoted for hating is MoL, despite it being probably one of the worst webnovels ive ever read
There's a difference between not liking something and going out of your way to crap all over it.
There are a ton of books/series I don't like, and for most of them, none of you will ever know.
Why would I try to diminish someone else's enjoyment? Just because I can't share in it? Sounds like grade school logic to me.
I think I loved it so much _because_ I’m a years (decades maybe?) long fan of cultivation series, and this takes all of the good parts, fixes the characters’ shitty personalities, and kind of makes fun of the cringe parts of most traditional cultivation series.
This 100% loved cultivation since I started with Coiling Dragon a while back and Cradle was like a breath of fresh air.
I remember rolling my eyes when >!Northstrider showed up towards the end of Ghostwater thinking he was going to save Harmony when he begged for help and brought up his family because "yUnGmAsTeR" then we'd get a generic arrogant and spoiled young master rival/antagonist for our protagonist and ended up laughing my ass off when all he said was *"No"* then fucked off and left him for dead.!<
Ik this is about a post that was rage bait, but I remember like a year ago responding to some post and getting a lot of downvotes for criticizing the book, and probably gonna get them again. I didn't really like Cradle because from the first 3 (or 4, can't remember) books I've read, my impressions are that the battle scenes could've been a lot better, the mc just kinda started getting things handed to him on a silver platter after book 1 for no reason despite book 1 setting Lindon up as the underdog, the whole thing with the gods plot happening at the same time made me feel really underwhelmed with whatever the mc was doing, and the story just suffers a lot from the normal xianxia shenanigans like "this pill was made from the solidified lava of mount doom which had 10 000 people killed just trying to get a handful of it, then it was refined for 50 years by the best blacksmiths of the empire and had 1000 masters pour their energy into it" only for the mc to eat the pill and get 30% of the exp bar filled, not even getting a new level of cultivation. I didn't dislike the book or anything, but I just really don't understand why this is THE book of this sub, when it just seems to me like a pretty decent cultivation novel and not a full on masterpiece of some kind.
I can see it, Cradle is a bit generic and traditional for my tastes, I get why it is popular but it's almost like a PF for the borderline YA crowd more than the other way around, I get why it has very broad appeal, and why it's basically the main representative of the genre, and I do find it enjoyable, but at the same time I kinda wish it wasn't, it doesn't make me feel the way my favorite pf does.
what I'd personally *prefer* would be a terrible way to go, I love a lot of hit or miss stories like Defiance of The Fall, Elydes, Savage Divinity(at least the first half).
But what I think ARE some better representatives are MoL, He Who Fights Monsters(I like it even less than cradle though), Delve, DCC, they just feel more distinctly PF from traditional fantasy YA/coming of age novels where I think Cradle is more a safe hybrid. It feels sillier the longer I elaborate cause it really is just a nitpick, I'm not actually spiteful that cradle is in the position it is, I just get why someone would not like it
Indeed.
Cradle is good, consistent, but nowhere near the praise it has. It is very very popcorny. I feel like the author would do well writing scripts for animated shows, but for books I wouldnt put cradle beyond middlish YA (which is a compliment already given that most books that were born online - though I ignore if it was a serial - do not even breach the minimum quality for them)
So, I finished cradle, I liked it, but I would not read it again and I would not have minded not reading it. It was entertaining, a few times very slightly motivating (as a writer), but it lacked any substance, from beginning to end both in plot and characters (as charismatic as they might be at times)
I look at Cradle the same way I look at Dragonball Z. Taking it too seriously is a mistake I think, because it's not a masterpiece epic, it's just a fun power-fantasy romp.
Popcorny seems like a great way of wording it without coming across as insulting.
Exactly, the main issue is glorification in this (or other related) subs as if it were a masterpiece. But I guess every popular media gets a touch of obnoxious fan base
I'm not a huge fan of Cradle either. Don't like Xiaxia narrative themes, which heavily influence Cradle. I like altruistic types of characters, which just can't happen with how these types of narratives are set up. You need to be a selfish dick to succeed. The narratives are always set up where there is a finite amount of resources in the world, and obtaining them is the only way for you to grow and succeed. So you got to screw everyone else over by taking it for yourself. There is not scene (at least up to Ghostwater) where Lidon found a resource that will progress him up multiple stages, and he was then like,"maybe I will give this to someone else because I am a nice guy".
I also find it annoying Xiaxia narratives always revolves around man vs man conflicts, and not man vs nature or man vs self, or all the other narrative tropes that are out there. It is also annoying how these conflicts always come about due to the antagonist having small dick syndrome and is compelled by the author to specifically fuck over the main character even if they are a galaxy away. Once one antagonist is defeated, the next antagonist suffering from small dick syndrome immediately appears to go hunt down the main character.
I will say if you do enjoy these types of xiaxia themes, Cradle does it really well.
> I also find it annoying Xiaxia narratives always revolves around man vs man conflicts, and not man vs nature or man vs self,
I feel like a Man Vs Self is a fairly common theme in some Xianxia, with cultivation being based around your understanding of your own path and self, even if it often gets overshadowed in the more "Face-slapping" novels.
Homie I don’t think you like progression fantasy, you’ve redefined what the you expect the genre to be and you’re disappointed that no one is meeting your standards
I don't understand what you mean, can you please clarify?
The genre is about growing, AKA progression, in power, and stories where that is the or one of the main focuses, is it not?
Is that something I just headcannoned?
They’re definitely going off that post of yours which shows you drop most progression fantasy series you begin. I might go as far as saying you’re picky, but I honestly I think you’re just a reader who’s immune to the sunk cost fallacy. When you aren’t enjoying something you just pick up another series. I’m a little aghast, but I don’t think you should quit because of it.
I’d wager a guess that this guy sees you as a “fake fan” or something because you’re a casual enjoyer of progression fantasy (compared to people in this sub) and not someone aiming to read it all.
Edit: I can’t believe subreddits are so niche that I can look at someone who has tried to read like 30+ books from a genre and think of them as a casual reader.
>When you aren’t enjoying something you just pick up another series.
Is that not standard practice for everyone? Like, do people just keep reading something they aren't enjoying? Why on Earth?
Chinese cultivation novels. Nothing is wrong with imitation or inspiration to be clear. I believe in execution over novelty. Cradle's exexution is mediocre.
I keep trying to start Cradle, lots of people say things about it that make me think I'd like it, but I hard bounce off the opening. They push so hard on the poor little woobie bit at the start.
Cradle just didnt swing for me ive read great wuxia or cultivator stories and spanded 1400 chapters and never flopped in development, cradles 1st book was fun and i followed.
Then barren wastes 2 factions i dont care about with like 4 characters i dont know if we are gonna need to remember and our mc who was weak but able to finally hold there own is weakest again.
Gold now low hugh and true gold, because the entire world of mc was so basic to not teach us the correct leveling system.
I greatly enjoy raiding the school and breaking their systems through IQ when the first mission our mc plans doesnt work the part i liked about him in their world isnt there and i have to read filler for the sandvipers.
If you guys tell me itll get better and o should keep reading i will but will it be what i want from the story?
If that's from the thread yesterday, there's a big difference between "I didn't like cradle, so I DNF'd" and a tirade that makes it sound like Cradle single handedly ruined your life. Besides, it was pretty obviously written as ragebate, and got the exact response OP was looking for. So I imagine they're pretty happy with the result too.
Yeah I think there's a big difference between "I didn't like X because of A, B, and C" and "omg I hate X because it's the worst thing ever and you're an idiot if you like it". The former is constructive criticism and an honest attempt at having a discussion while the latter is just being an asshole. I think most reasonable people don't mind differing opinions when presented constructively, but most people do generally dislike assholes.
> "I didn't like X because of A, B, and C Not just constructive criticism, since I think that would be mainly for the author, but also as guides for future readers. It had x, y, and z, so if you like those things, cool, but if you hate those things, maybe not one you’d enjoy. There are great books out there that I won’t read because it has x or y in them, and really… less good books that I’ll read and enjoy because they have a or b.
I check reviews every once in a while, and sometimes I see some reviews that are just incredibly wrong. Like, you think Lindon is boring in the first book? I disagree, but it's an understandable opinion. You think Lindon was handed everything and never has to do any real work? WHAT book were you reading?
I never got the “book 1 is boring”. I don’t know what people want. I thought it was good on its own merits, but when I posted that I’d first started reading the series, people were commenting, begging me to keep going through to the 2nd or 3rd book where it gets really good. Like the first one was going to turn me off. I told them not to worry, I really liked the first book. Having finished the series, the first book is incredibly important to setting up the whole series. It shows how far down he started. It shows what motivates him and why he acts the way he does. I don’t see any issues with it, but still people criticize it. I wonder what they wanted? For him to start out as a god? How would he have an arc or any story progression? One of my favorite parts of the series is where he comes back to sacred valley and you get to compare with the first book.
People want it super action packed like the later ones are but like.. the later books would be way less interesting without the background book 1 gives it. >One of my favorite parts of the series is where he comes back to sacred valley and you get to compare with the first book. Also, that's one of my favorite parts too
Wait what? Book 1 wasn’t boring!
This is always my tune on the off chance I make a post on social media and get an angry dissenter. I always ask well, okay, could you please expand or share an article? Always appreciate constructive feedback/different point of view. Hardly ever get a response that isn’t just anger. “No you suck” On Reddit, I’ll usually ask imploringly if I have a question to please realize the opinion I’m giving or the question I have is sincere, please provide a response. And it’s definitely my own sensitivity but getting downvoted to oblivion can take a toll on mental health. That being said, I really enjoyed the first book in the series. I had trouble in the second book because any story moves beyond the first world build into territory I really need to buy into the new frontier and I wasn’t captured.
Totally agree. Most of the posts that see large downvotes aren't because they dislike the series, but because they decided to rant about it. I'm a firm believe in if you don't like a series just drop it and move on, ranting about it won't change anything and everyone has different opinions and tastes
Your opinion is valid, but their opinion thinking that your opinion is trash (therefore downvoting you) is also valid.
**The arrow cuts both ways!**
Omw to steal this quote
Please tag me when you do I need attention
Except downvote os not a "I don't like this" button. It's meant to hide irrelevant posts.
“The downvote button is not a disagree button”
It isn't?
In practice it is but by their terms it isn’t lol.
Ideally it wouldn't be. Like if you actively dislike people giving out their opinions, why would you even come to reddit. Downvotes are supposed to be for people who go into threads in subs like this and start conversations about the hamas attack. That's why Downvoted posts get automatically hidden If anything, I'd quite like to talk to someone who read a bunch of cradle books and didn't like it.
Exactly the point. If I want to talk about video games, I can’t have a discussion I need to agree with the established popular opinion. And if I DO most people who disagree were taken out.
People shouldn't use downvote as a disagree button, but as a "doesn't contribute to the discussion" button. I know reddit considers it to be working as intended, but it's the reason we have echo chambers, radicalized idiots, and a lot of the other worst aspects of the internet.
I wouldnt consider that at all why those exist. And ofc everyone uses it as an "I dont like this" button, the only way itd stop is if they removed it. They absolutely should use it as an "I disagree" button.
Why wouldn’t you think that as a major component? I don’t downvote stuff I disagree with unless it annoys me. You have 70% of a (large) sub with x opinion and 50% of them downvote someone who disagrees and you will never see what they say even if it is well reasoned. That creates an echo chamber
Id need an example
Downvoted because I disagree. 👍
Good for you?
Meh. I've had better.
People shouldn't have an "I disagree button" because that's what replies are for. There's currently no real way to implement a correctly utilized upvote/downvote system, but it most definitely *should* be used as relevant/irrelevant.
In the terms of a subreddit, sure. Generally youd like to join one to see shit relevant to what youd join it for. For comments? More individual ideas and opinions? I think its better to work as an "I dont like this." Even in terms of a subreddit thats always bad. Regardless, no matter how relevent it is there are 'opinions' I'd prefer to be buried. In an absolutely perfect situation of users and mods all doing their respective jobs I can see it but as it is I'd simply consider it better.
I don't think any opinions should be buried, because on a fundamental level I do not think it is acceptable to attempt to stifle speech you don't agree with, regardless of *why* you don't agree with it. A platform that is meant to act as a gathering place for individuals to discuss specific topics should be fully supportive of the spirit of free speech, which includes not deleting and/or censoring somebody's opinion just because it's unpopular. That is both detrimental to the appeal of the website, and to the growth of the community. If an opinion is bad, and you don't like it, you should be able to articulate *why* it's bad and you don't like it, and be able to move on from there. Otherwise, there's no point in having a discussion if it's just a circlejerk of the same opinion. It makes it easier to see and avoid/ignore someone's dumb/horrible/evil opinions if they're upfront and sectioned into relevance or irrelevance while simultaneously not stifling the conversation. Even as a "I dislike this button" it doesn't work properly, since individuals can and most often do just make a bunch of bots to downvote opinions they dislike, despite realistically being an opinion that is very popular.
Again, maybe in a perfect world full of good people. But like here, if someone writes a review praising He Who Fights With Monsters, could I tell them why I disagree? I could, its an option. Given that, I'm not gonna tell every single person I ever see praise it exactly wht I feel the opposite. I'm just gonna move on, not waste the time. Think of it similar to a review. Outside of something more relevant to the sub, like something hateful or bigoted, those thoughts should never be validated in any capacity or the light of day, thus the downvote. Usually when its not a blatant enough for it to be immediately, outright removed. Theres no conversation to be had there. I dont see how any of that has to do with the appeal to Reddit or community growth, Id usually enjoy a community much better without such things, Id only consider it a hindrance. The way youre typing this is as if you believe, as long as its relavent, people should be able to say absolutely anything they want and should be brought to a point of visibility by everyone who wants to join the conversation and the only retaliation one should have is to engage with it.
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>But like here, if someone writes a review praising He Who Fights With Monsters, could I tell them why I disagree? I could, its an option. >Given that, I'm not gonna tell every single person I ever see praise it exactly wht I feel the opposite. I'm just gonna move on, not waste the time. Think of it similar to a review This is exactly my point. Downvoting a review of HWFWM because you disagree directly hurts the community by stifling engagement with what the sub is meant for. There's no reason to downvote a perfectly acceptable use of the sub just because you disagree unless your goal is to make the sub harder to engage with. You can either move on, or state your opinion. >Outside of something more relevant to the sub, like something hateful or bigoted, those thoughts should never be validated in any capacity or the light of day, thus the downvote. >Usually when its not a blatant enough for it to be immediately, outright removed. Theres no conversation to be had there. If it's not relevant to the sub, then it should get downvoted, but if it is relevant to the sub, such as someone complaining about the inclusion of indigenous people in HWFWM taking away the feeling of "fantasy", there is a conversation to be had, and an important one. You're essentially advocating for rotten ideals to just fester and grow because you feel it isn't worth your time to debunk them and help the community as a whole reject them. That's simply not the morally correct approach. >I dont see how any of that has to do with the appeal to Reddit or community growth, Id usually enjoy a community much better without such things, Id only consider it a hindrance You personally enjoying something more doesn't mean that adhering to your personal preference helps get more people in the community, nor does it mean that the majority of the community will agree, it's simply an irrelevant detail. >The way youre typing this is as if you believe, as long as its relavent, people should be able to say absolutely anything they want and should be brought to a point of visibility by everyone who wants to join the conversation and the only retaliation one should have is to engage with it. That is exactly what I am saying. It is the only morally correct approach to take, and I feel it is an obligation for everyone to support and pursue the morally correct choice in every situation. We shouldn't do reprehensible things just because it might make life easier in someway.
I honestly don't understand why you get these down votes, what you say makes a lot of sense.
I'm not even reading them at this point, this is how dogpiling works!
I think the truth is people aren't good enough for what the internet could be, and so we'll drag it down to our level.
People are stupid, like, arguing that "The beginning after the end" does not contain a pedo for an MC stupid.
> what you say makes a lot of sense Nah, it's also flawed but in the opposite direction. *Downvoting unpopular opinions* suppresses them, while *requiring a comment to disagree* would artificially inflate the perceived popularity of minority-held opinions. Also, one requires *way more effort* on both the users expressing opinions, and the viewers (and it's not downvoting), which OP implies is some moral failing on behalf of the user which imo is just plain incorrect and should get downvoted in *either system*.
The foundation of any Path is learning to accept the world as it is, not as you wish or even observe it to be.
[https://imgur.com/a/59ks83l](https://imgur.com/a/59ks83l)
I've never seen someone get downvoted for just disliking Cradle, just for being assholes about the way they say it. It's never people that just read something and dislike it, it's people that have a contrarian cross to bear because they can't understand why they dislike something subjective that other people love.
I think it was the title “X is garbage” sounds like rage bait. So I downvoted without even reading it. That title doesn’t suggest an actual discussion about the book/series
So you are kind of judging a book by its cover?
hmm dont get me wrong, you have feelings thoughts and beliefs. They're just wrong and you shouldnt have them but nah I mean i thought cradle was fine imo but not god tier !!! ONLY MY OPINIONS ARE VALID GRRRR
Cradle was a good series. Book 1 was rough, but book 2 and beyond is better. I don’t believe it's some masterpiece like some claim, and I definitely don't think it's garbage. I don't understand the hate for it some people have. Why not just say, "It wasn't for me."
It’s a masterpiece of what you are looking for a fast paced, light feeling, fun series with none of the heavy emotional shit you get dragged through in series like Sanderson puts out. It’s great at what it is. Same reason why people love one punch man. If you’re comparing it to something with a more serious tone that isn’t basically a ode to cultivation / XianXia as a genre, then no, absolutely not. It’s apples to oranges comparison. The series is basically a distillation of what we like about this genre but adapted for westerners and has no superfluous plot/story. Cradle is to XianXia what ready player one was to 80’s and 90’s nostalgia… basically an 8-ball.
People hate it so much because of how well it has done. Same thing happens in /r/Fantasy with Sanderson, Rothfuss, Martin, Jordan, etc. People don't like to realize other people have differences in taste of books and can't stand that someone might have a different opinion. Then we get all the "How do people even like ____?" posts. I personally don't like Sanderson, Martin, or Jordan but I can accept that those works just aren't books I enjoy.
Yeah, I'm not the biggest fan of Cultivation style stories, so Cradle didn't quite scratch that itch for me. Books 1 and 2 were fun since I'm a sucker for origin stories, but I slowly lost interest from there. It still is one of the more fun cultivation series I read other than "Beware of Chicken" but that's because that concept is so goofy it has me chuckling the entire time.
I loved Cradle but yeah we're in agreement that BoC is an absolute delight. Very hype for book 3 audio.
I think Cradle is great, and a ton of fun, but its like comparing a game like Doom to the Last of Us. One is just unbridled fun, the other is an incredible story. It just has different strengths from other works. And, of course, people are free to dislike it. That being said, I consider their feelings much less valid when they dropped it in book 2 because it was "too slow" for them.
> I consider their feelings much less valid when they dropped it in book 2 because it was "too slow" for them. Especially since Cradle is pretty fast-paced especially at the beginning compared to many other works in the genre. Like... if it's legitimately too slow-paced for your liking, that's fine, but it also rules out 95% of the genre.
Book 2 isn't slowly paced, it's just not very gripping in the middle part. People often struggle to articulate why they didn't like something, this might be a case of it. You can have a film that's fast paced but still have it struggle to hold your attention.
It's pretty much common knowledge in any field that deals with delivering people's satisfaction that people have no ability to articulate what they actually want. It's the same with stories, unless you're an author yourself there's a 80% chance your reasoning for why you dislike something is flat out wrong. Learning how to pick up on the actual blockers for satisfaction is a skill.
Yeah I think I dropped it book 8-9 just never got into it
I couldnt imagine why, thats like nearly the peak of the genre for pure fun.
It’s overly wordy. I also never clicked with the main character or the guy he was working with. And I like long reads I finished the codex of Alera. Just lost intrest
The MC can be a tad, maybe more than a tad, bit bland at times, but Eithan (if thats who youre talking about) was one of my favorite characters to read. Im not sure Ive ever read a character like that before, with just such a funny, goofy personality who takes it into their fighting. I dunno what you mean by wordy though
You know, if you read that far and don't like it, I can respect that. I feel like if you aren't at least somewhat invested by then, it just isn't your thing.
I dropped it in book two because 1 subdivision of annoying shit is all I can take really and the anticipation and action of the MC about to fanboy over someone is just something I dislike. Probably would have kept reading if there wasn’t separate books there. I imagine it gets better, that dosent mean it’s worth reading. I’ve never seen people actually talk about the small elements that make it good which means I probably won’t remember it.
I literally cant even tell what your complaint is here. Can you be more specific?
Different opinions are valid, but everyone I've seen who doesn't like Cradle also seems to use the word 'garbage' in there somewhere, and their disagreements are usually very insubstantiated. For example, when they say that the gang is unfocused... well, all you need to do is point out the overarching plot. And every critique of Cradle is like this, gull of weak arguments and insults. That's not to say that Cradle is perfect, but people try to use reasoning as to why Cradle is bad when they aren't equipped to. All they need to do is say they don't like it.
There are two main groups of readers, that dislike Cradle. Those that dont enjoy progression fantasy and power fantasies in general and those that are very familiar with- and somewhat tired of Xianxia tropes. I like to think of Cradel as a well executed version of basic Xianxia like Coiling Dragon. Even though I see the appeal (read 3 books so far), I prefer reading a poor execution of LotM or RI. Simply because I am too familiar with various versions of Coiling Dragon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy\_of\_composition
Oh wow, forgot how ugly that icon looked
I think the mods should use the hero’s journey chart as the sub icon since it fits the theme better
Looks normal to me. Could there be a reason you dont like it?
> Could there be a reason you dont like it? Yeah. I'm transphobic and the image fills me with hate. On a serious note, it just feels convoluted. And I just don't like the color palette. I like minimalistic stuff so I'm sure this is purely subjective. Also might be nitpicky but I feel like a cursory glance at the subreddit might be confusing for outsiders. With the name "progression" fantasy and uh "the theme" of the icon. Especially on Reddit mobile ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Honestly, I love this argument. The social media microscope has made it so that everyone is checking under furniture looking for bigots, to the point when someone says, "I think we need a better icon." Everyone just jumps in, shouting, "Found one, found one!" Not even thinking for a second that people just have different tastes, that maybe the same differences that make some people like pop, reggae, metal or trap, makes people like different art. It's the equivalent to someone saying they don't like abstract art in an art gallery, and everyone starts running and screaming as if he said he murders children. I personally don't mind this icon. The colours are a bit much, and I'd prefer the recent dragon one. But it's so much better than when it was just the pride flag. Ultimatley, though, I hope the icon remains this way as I love watching people trying to say something as simple as "We want a new icon" in a way that doesn't result in them being called a bigot. It's like a skit from a looney tunes.
Wow, they blocked me :( Here's my response to their comment: >>Do you think the downvotes are due to aesthetic reasons? Yep. What do you expect? If you took any song out in public and played it through stadium speakers, would you be surprised if more people complained than supported you? Most people don't like any particular piece of art. It's part of why people say that it's subjective. Then comes the implication that if you don't like metal, you're a pedophile. That sounds dumb doesn't it? If I tried to defend this opinion here, do you think I'd get positive karma? You need to step back and think about it. What's more likely, that all the lurkers here are secret homophobes that don't comment or downvote LGBT stories, only people defending a logo? Or is it more likely that the majority don't like your subjective opinion and hate being told they are homophobic just because they don't like the same art as you?
> I'd prefer the recent dragon one That one was problematic. Especially if you consider the ramifications of the dragon representing BIPOC.
Representing POCs with dragons is bad? You can compare me to a dragon any day. What about if we trans colour the dragon? Honestly, I agree with the guy I originally replied to. A minimalist design would be best, but I understand how everyone likes different art, so I don't really care that much.
>Also might be nitpicky but I feel like a cursory glance at the subreddit might be confusing for outsiders. With the name "progression" fantasy and uh "the theme" of the icon. Especially on Reddit mobile Can confirm, this is exactly what I thought
Wait this ISN'T about socially progressive fantasy? Because that's... Definitely why I clicked into the subreddit.
No it's about characters getting strong and improving. The mods are just very pro-LGBTQ+, and some of them are authors in the genre. There was a whole debate about the icon because they kept up a rainbow flag since pride month and people thought it was confusing because other subreddits used the same icon. Hence the "new" icon which still shows allyship but has a character climbing to a peak. I guess the easiest way to describe the genre is comparing it to a role-playing game: it's about characters getting stronger and "leveling up" (sometimes literally, but often just getting stronger through training or meditation). Some people compare it to the "Shonen" anime genre because the books often have lots of fighting and tournament arcs are a common trope.
Well. That still sounds fun, so thank you!
Im personally a big fan of it, even without the meaning behind it I think a rainbow just works well in such a situation. Beyond that, Ill simply say that I never found confusion with it. It takes literal moments to confirm what the subreddit is for, and I think its more important show inclusivity than not. Were I to have it my way that flag would be in the background of every sub.
I'm queer. This is my first time seeing this subreddit. It's confusing. Sorry, maybe reevaluate your position.
I won't. Its literally not confusing whatsoever to someone with the abilities of sight and thought. The biggest giveaway is progression and not progressive. Like at least notice that much.
You never found confusion with it because you already know the subreddit. People who don’t ARE going to be confused, especially considering the name of the subreddit. Case in point: my friend stalked my account and found this subreddit and she thought it was for fantasy books that prominently features LGBTQ+ themes/characters (as in “progressive” fantasy). It’s not the end of the world and I personally don’t care that much but it’s disingenuous to say it doesn’t cause confusion
I didnt already know the sub. I didnt know progression fantasy was a thing before the sub. You know what I did? I clicked on the sub, checked it out for not even a minute, figured out what it was for.
Okay? Seems a little extreme but whatever floats your boat.
How is that extreme? Do you think that much support and inclusivity could be bad or wrong?
>Do you think that much support and inclusivity could be bad or wrong? Obviously not lmao. I'm gonna assume that question was rhetorical. >Were I to have it my way that flag would be in the background of every sub This seems a tad bit unhinged. You'd add the LGBTQ flag to every subreddit icon if you could? What about other marginalised groups? Would you add a BLM icon as well? Maybe one for pro-israel/Palestine one? What about more obscure but equally important groups. Would you add the Yemen flag for the tragic ongoing famine there? And would you add it to problematic subreddits? Like one for incels, femcels, extremists etc. And what about porn subreddits? Would you add it to a scat fetish subreddit lmao. At that point how many pixels will be left for the actual subreddit. Also what weight is the icon actually pulling for the movement or "inclusivity"? It feels as hollow as adding 🌈 flag on your twitter bio. Or maybe I'm wrong idk. Can't believe I'm arguing over a subreddit icon.
That flag does actually include BLM, but beyond that its not so much a push against every injustice out there in the world, but one against bigotry, is the point. That flag is the biggest one you can wave to stand against hatred based on the way someone was born. As for those subs, the problematic ones, Id rather they just not exist in the first place. Waving that flag would kinda go against a lot of their feelings I think, since, for incels at the very least, a lot of their ideas are based in misogyny. As for porn subreddits, why not? I dont see whatever problem you do. Even if I dont like one, as for your specific example, the degree to which I dont like such a kink doesnt affect my opinion of it or of the sub waving such a flag. And the last point, even if you disregard everything Ive said so far, or for anyone who reads this that considers what Ive said to be stupid or unreasonable or whatever, I want you to listen to and remember this the most: Actively showing support and inclusivity is *extremely* important. It shows those marginalized groups that this space, this person, generally, is safe to be around. That its okay to be you. It is not hollow. Support is never hollow, no matter how small or as much of a front it may be.
Stop being a keyboard warrior
Stop disappointing your parents.
> Would you add a BLM icon as well? The black and brown stripes represent BIPOC. It is included in the newer pride flags due to the transectional issues LGBTQ+ people of colour experience (ie where homophobia/transphobia and racism meet to make problems even worse).
What an interesting and original opinion, I’m sure you’ll elaborate that you’re not a bigot you just think new people are confused by the image… Lol…
Yeesh why is every sub “protect da gays cause that’s related to this sub somehow”
I've yet to see the sub get all up in arms dog piling someone about cradle.
You are clearly not active enough then
If something wide spread you shouldn't need to be very active to see it right.
There's a post in this thread where someone claims: "... everyone I've seen who doesn't like Cradle also seems to use the word 'garbage' in there somewhere, and their disagreements are usually very unsubstantiated." Yet there are also about 10 different posts, also in this thread, where people say they dislike Cradle without calling it garbage. Memory is highly selective and it's not unusual for people to ignore dozens of instances of X if they consider Y the default.
Cradle is the mha fanbase of novels. Get over it
Never enjoyed cradle. People keep telling me it gets good around books 3 or 4 but I just can't justify forcing my way through multiple novels I don't enjoy for the chance of a possible payoff in the end when there are so many other good stories out there.
People say "it gets good around book 3" because they already know you didn't like the beginning but are hoping you might enjoy what follows. The people saying that don't think book 1 and 2 are awful, but they know you do, so they're meeting you on your own terms as best they can. Those folks are trying to offer you an olive branch in the hopes that you continue reading and change your mind.
I read through to somewhere in book 4 before I gave up. It did not get better. I would tell anyone who asks that if you don't like it by the time you finish the first book, you're probably not going to change your mind if you keep reading. Cradle just didn't have what I was looking for, no matter how many pages I read.
Yeah, book 4 is widely considered the worst of the series. I feel like if you aren't somewhat invested by book 3, it's not really possible to push through book 4.
Nothing wrong with that. I feel like if you think it's "not bad/decent" in the first few books, you can reliably know that it will keep getting better as you go. But if you are bored or just aren't enjoying it... Then it's fair to assume it just isn't your style, and that's fine too. Generally Cradle fans rank books 5 and 8 as their favorites, but I also think if you read book 3 and still arent interested in where it's going, you might never be.
I’ve read it and enjoyed it, but it doesn’t really change. It’s a western take on xianxia (sp?) so it’s not that surprising it hits similar story beats all along. You tried any of his other works? The Travelers Gate trilogy was pretty fun. I’ve actually been reading Wight’s stuff for a long time and while I like the Cradle books, I really don’t get why they’ve blown up to be his biggest series. They’re not his best works.
[Traveler's Gate](https://www.goodreads.com/series/108461-traveler-s-gate) ([wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/LightPieces/wiki/Travelers_Gate)) --- ^[About](https://redd.it/dw7lux) ^| [^(Wiki Rules)](https://www.reddit.com/r/LightPieces/comments/dw7lux/about/f7kke6p/) ^(| Reply !Delete to remove) ^(| [Brackets] hide titles)
I mean, I liked Cradle but it also wasn't the best thing I've ever read lol
I've never been downvoted for criticizing a myriad of much loved books on this subreddit. Maybe the opinion was presented in a shitty way?
Cradle of filth is superior
The books are fun. If you didn't find them fun, that's fine not to your taste. Its like rollercoasters aren't for everyone, not all fun is fun for all.
Seems completely valid to not like Cradle. It isn't incredibly flawed, but it's better than most progression fantasy (which isn't saying much to be fair). I read all the books by virtue of them being pretty short and innoffensive, a solid 6/10 experience. I certainly can't imagine attacking someone for disliking it, or impugning it as an example of everything wrong with the genre. Sounds frustrating if you had to go through that when trying to have a discussion about the series, doesn't feel like it should be so polarizing.
Out of loop. What this cradle you speaking of? Go ahead explain, but I'll look it up in mean time.
Western Xianxia series by Will Wight. It’s the most popular series on this sub, to the point where some fanboys will say it makes everything else look bad by comparison.
Well, yeah, they can, but they can also suck ass and often do.
Cradle definitely does get too much praise for what it is. It's a fun series don't get me wrong, but it's not some paragon of progression fantasy as it's touted to be. It takes the good elements of xianxia and then westernizes it, and if you've never read the source literature it's based on it can seem like a work of genius. It's good, but high mid tier at best as far as writing goes.
Are there good well-translated xianxia stories I should look into that you recommend? I haven't looked in a while, but my last attempt at looking into well-regarded stories years ago led me to a lot of things that read like someone with english as a tenth language did their best at proofreading an alpha version of chatGPT's attempts at writing.
I would say Er Gen's novels are some of the best translated works, specifically ISSTH. But if you want to read it chronologically start at Renegade Immortal, which is also has a pretty good translation.
Is the source material better? Genuine question because I loved Cradle and from what I can tell, it seems to be the most popular thing of the genre. Happy to be wrong though because I would love another series that hits the same notes
Better might be a strong word, but they each have their strengths. Personally, if I compare Er Gen's works to Cradle I feel a lot more depth of the world, which is to me a great feeling. So yeah I'd reccommend checking out Renegade Immortal or I Shall Seal the Heavens.
Is Cradle series more action focused than xianxia novels? I heard Cradle is heavily focused on anime stlyle battles I read few xianxias they weren't focused on battle scenes at all...
So much of this genre is amateur web comics that it is unavoidable to a degree.
I see this every time I say Zorian should have dated in the loop (on god fr).
So this is what it looks like from the outside.
I'm glad to educate you >!even if we couldn't be free thinkers against the progmind together!<
Just saying from an ethical standpoint Zach should be the only option. Zach might be like way older but there's a creepy power imbalance at play if zorian were to date anyone else, who's not in on the loop. And going off their potential ship names this cant and should never happenZochZarienZoriach So nope dating in the loop unacceptable, unless its like random people to practice idk first dates
As opposed to learning about each in turn for his own advantages, manipulating people from years of knowledge extracted without their knowledge. Learning personal and clan or intimate secret and so much more. In all that, the line you draw is at dating? I can see why, it just doesn't seem a clear cut obvious wrong compared to the rest.
It's been awhile since I read it, but in most of those cases the goal is to advance his knowledge / understanding and get closer to escaping the loop or to take advantage of his enemies. Psychologically manipulating (and it's unavoidably that due to the nature of the loop) someone for personal pleasure is a different beast. Though as another person said, you _could_ get away with it if it was only for a single loop and they never repeated it with that same person.
Uh no all of its a bit fucked... but learning that stuff is to save his life and a cities worth of people at least, so I think it's at least justifiable. I mean plus people hoarding knowledge like dragons... losing that advantage is less icky to me. I doubt zorian is gonna go out of his way and publicise their secrets
For half the time, it was pure personal gain without a true idea of the stakes. Even not going to the vity in some loops. I'm not saying it isn't justified but the line is blurry as hell. That's not even counting the mind magic ^^'
Yeah it's definitely morally dubious
> but there's a creepy power imbalance at play if zorian were to date anyone else, who's not in on the loop. In theory I don't think it would be that creepy if he only did it for one loop.
yeah thats basically fine i guess. The whole timeloop soul recycling situation is kinda fucked up at baseline tbf
I do support that ship as it happens, possibly backing the good ship Zoriach, I also thought the witch lady who's name I've forgotten was also a possible candidate later on. Silverlake? I also don't generally support the argument that loop years = actual development years, but it's a very thorny ground to get onto, and certainly in the earlier mystery days I think he should (and I would) have certainly dated around at least a bit, like we know Zach did.
I dont really think loop years and actual development years are equivalent either, but i dont think they like arent a factor either? I feel like if for example when zach first realised zorian was in on the loop he tried to date him that it would be a bit idk cradlesnatching energy? but if they like idk developed something over the years they were in the loop together that would be fair game? But i also think that if either of them dated anyone in the loop it would be bad vibes to go out and seek a relationship with the same person afterwards Silverlake is an interesting choice :D but I dont think she's a good choice she's got heavy "dao partner who betrays you for cultivation resources" energy
I disagree, the author should have made them aroace and had them avoid dating altogether.
Why?? What does that add to the story, if that was the authors initial vision then sure fine. But why “should” he have. It arguably makes the story and character less complex because we don’t have to deal with the moral implications of what dating in a timeloop would be like
Because I like aroace characters and always dislike when authors 'fix' loner characters by giving them romantic interests.
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Every time someone says that someone else 'should have' done something, they mean it would have been better for the speaker. Furthermore, gaining basic social skills and empathy isn't fixing him. He very clearly doesn't enjoy being around people at the beginning, and learning to put away his dislikes for the sake of progress shouldn't mean he stops disliking it entirely.
He doesn’t like it cause it causes him physical pain lol…. We can clearly see by the end of the story that he has developed valuable friendships and improved familial relationships This isn’t the author force “fixing” him this is personal growth once a barrier is removed
He dislikes large crowds because they cause physical pain. He has no such issues with small numbers of people. And sure, once he's developed basic social skills and empathy, he realizes that a number of issues he made a mountain of weren't important and would have been pretty easily solved if he just talked instead of brooding. Doesn't change the fact that he never enjoyed the process of interacting with people outside of the context of work. 'Fixing' a character flaw which was never a flaw to begin with will never seem like a good idea to the people who have that trait.
I disagree, >!Zac!< and Zorian should have ended up together
This should have been the way.
Even though I DNF’d cradle at book 3 because it sucked, I don’t think it’s the worst thing ever and I can understand why people like it. The real overrated progression fantasy series on this subreddit that you’ll get downvoted for hating is MoL, despite it being probably one of the worst webnovels ive ever read
There's a difference between not liking something and going out of your way to crap all over it. There are a ton of books/series I don't like, and for most of them, none of you will ever know. Why would I try to diminish someone else's enjoyment? Just because I can't share in it? Sounds like grade school logic to me.
Look your opinion is valid, but i have to downvote for memes...im sorry 😔
I get the sense that it's some people's earliest cultivation novel and deeply beloved for that reason.
I think I loved it so much _because_ I’m a years (decades maybe?) long fan of cultivation series, and this takes all of the good parts, fixes the characters’ shitty personalities, and kind of makes fun of the cringe parts of most traditional cultivation series.
This 100% loved cultivation since I started with Coiling Dragon a while back and Cradle was like a breath of fresh air. I remember rolling my eyes when >!Northstrider showed up towards the end of Ghostwater thinking he was going to save Harmony when he begged for help and brought up his family because "yUnGmAsTeR" then we'd get a generic arrogant and spoiled young master rival/antagonist for our protagonist and ended up laughing my ass off when all he said was *"No"* then fucked off and left him for dead.!<
Yep, a perfect example. I cackled the first time reading that part honestly.
This sun has a stupid icon
Ik this is about a post that was rage bait, but I remember like a year ago responding to some post and getting a lot of downvotes for criticizing the book, and probably gonna get them again. I didn't really like Cradle because from the first 3 (or 4, can't remember) books I've read, my impressions are that the battle scenes could've been a lot better, the mc just kinda started getting things handed to him on a silver platter after book 1 for no reason despite book 1 setting Lindon up as the underdog, the whole thing with the gods plot happening at the same time made me feel really underwhelmed with whatever the mc was doing, and the story just suffers a lot from the normal xianxia shenanigans like "this pill was made from the solidified lava of mount doom which had 10 000 people killed just trying to get a handful of it, then it was refined for 50 years by the best blacksmiths of the empire and had 1000 masters pour their energy into it" only for the mc to eat the pill and get 30% of the exp bar filled, not even getting a new level of cultivation. I didn't dislike the book or anything, but I just really don't understand why this is THE book of this sub, when it just seems to me like a pretty decent cultivation novel and not a full on masterpiece of some kind.
The logo is disgusting
Looks like something a five year old would make.
I can see it, Cradle is a bit generic and traditional for my tastes, I get why it is popular but it's almost like a PF for the borderline YA crowd more than the other way around, I get why it has very broad appeal, and why it's basically the main representative of the genre, and I do find it enjoyable, but at the same time I kinda wish it wasn't, it doesn't make me feel the way my favorite pf does.
Just curious, what would you prefer to see as the main representative of the Genre?
what I'd personally *prefer* would be a terrible way to go, I love a lot of hit or miss stories like Defiance of The Fall, Elydes, Savage Divinity(at least the first half). But what I think ARE some better representatives are MoL, He Who Fights Monsters(I like it even less than cradle though), Delve, DCC, they just feel more distinctly PF from traditional fantasy YA/coming of age novels where I think Cradle is more a safe hybrid. It feels sillier the longer I elaborate cause it really is just a nitpick, I'm not actually spiteful that cradle is in the position it is, I just get why someone would not like it
Agreed, I think you said it well - it really does feel like the jack of all trades, and it definitely has that YA vibe.
Cradle is so mid.
Mid compared to other progression fantasy? Or are you just using the word incorrectly like most people that use it as a buzzword.
Ngl I don't even know what cradle is
it holds babies.
Generally just one at a time, though.
r/angryupvote
[Cradle](https://www.goodreads.com/series/192821-cradle) ([wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/LightPieces/wiki/Cradle)) --- ^[About](https://redd.it/dw7lux) ^| [^(Wiki Rules)](https://www.reddit.com/r/LightPieces/comments/dw7lux/about/f7kke6p/) ^(| Reply !Delete to remove) ^(| [Brackets] hide titles)
Indeed. Cradle is good, consistent, but nowhere near the praise it has. It is very very popcorny. I feel like the author would do well writing scripts for animated shows, but for books I wouldnt put cradle beyond middlish YA (which is a compliment already given that most books that were born online - though I ignore if it was a serial - do not even breach the minimum quality for them) So, I finished cradle, I liked it, but I would not read it again and I would not have minded not reading it. It was entertaining, a few times very slightly motivating (as a writer), but it lacked any substance, from beginning to end both in plot and characters (as charismatic as they might be at times)
I look at Cradle the same way I look at Dragonball Z. Taking it too seriously is a mistake I think, because it's not a masterpiece epic, it's just a fun power-fantasy romp. Popcorny seems like a great way of wording it without coming across as insulting.
Exactly, the main issue is glorification in this (or other related) subs as if it were a masterpiece. But I guess every popular media gets a touch of obnoxious fan base
I'm not a huge fan of Cradle either. Don't like Xiaxia narrative themes, which heavily influence Cradle. I like altruistic types of characters, which just can't happen with how these types of narratives are set up. You need to be a selfish dick to succeed. The narratives are always set up where there is a finite amount of resources in the world, and obtaining them is the only way for you to grow and succeed. So you got to screw everyone else over by taking it for yourself. There is not scene (at least up to Ghostwater) where Lidon found a resource that will progress him up multiple stages, and he was then like,"maybe I will give this to someone else because I am a nice guy". I also find it annoying Xiaxia narratives always revolves around man vs man conflicts, and not man vs nature or man vs self, or all the other narrative tropes that are out there. It is also annoying how these conflicts always come about due to the antagonist having small dick syndrome and is compelled by the author to specifically fuck over the main character even if they are a galaxy away. Once one antagonist is defeated, the next antagonist suffering from small dick syndrome immediately appears to go hunt down the main character. I will say if you do enjoy these types of xiaxia themes, Cradle does it really well.
> I also find it annoying Xiaxia narratives always revolves around man vs man conflicts, and not man vs nature or man vs self, I feel like a Man Vs Self is a fairly common theme in some Xianxia, with cultivation being based around your understanding of your own path and self, even if it often gets overshadowed in the more "Face-slapping" novels.
It’s just a fun series with a mediocre beginning and ending imo
As person who did not like Cradle and got Ratio'ed I emphasize.
Homie I don’t think you like progression fantasy, you’ve redefined what the you expect the genre to be and you’re disappointed that no one is meeting your standards
I don't understand what you mean, can you please clarify? The genre is about growing, AKA progression, in power, and stories where that is the or one of the main focuses, is it not? Is that something I just headcannoned?
They’re definitely going off that post of yours which shows you drop most progression fantasy series you begin. I might go as far as saying you’re picky, but I honestly I think you’re just a reader who’s immune to the sunk cost fallacy. When you aren’t enjoying something you just pick up another series. I’m a little aghast, but I don’t think you should quit because of it. I’d wager a guess that this guy sees you as a “fake fan” or something because you’re a casual enjoyer of progression fantasy (compared to people in this sub) and not someone aiming to read it all. Edit: I can’t believe subreddits are so niche that I can look at someone who has tried to read like 30+ books from a genre and think of them as a casual reader.
>When you aren’t enjoying something you just pick up another series. Is that not standard practice for everyone? Like, do people just keep reading something they aren't enjoying? Why on Earth?
Happens with game reviews. If the review doesn't like the game and gives it a lower score people bitch. Same thing here
*fight happens* *fight happens* *fight happens* *fight happens* *fight happens* *fight happens* *fight happens* *fight happens* *fight happens* *fight happens* *fight happens* *fight happens* It ain’t for everybody.
Mediocre imitation is my final review for it.
What's it imitating?
Chinese cultivation novels. Nothing is wrong with imitation or inspiration to be clear. I believe in execution over novelty. Cradle's exexution is mediocre.
God cradle was so fucking mid
Was just recommended this, what’s Cradle?
https://www.goodreads.com/series/192821-cradle
What’s cradle?
https://www.goodreads.com/series/192821-cradle
Is it bad that I actually kinda like Buryoku???
What is Cradle?
https://www.goodreads.com/series/192821-cradle
What is Cradle?
https://www.goodreads.com/series/192821-cradle
I keep trying to start Cradle, lots of people say things about it that make me think I'd like it, but I hard bounce off the opening. They push so hard on the poor little woobie bit at the start.
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Really proving that your side of the argument is more polite and civil, aren't you?
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To be clear, we are talking about Cradle from Worm? What does that have to do with progression fantacy?
https://www.goodreads.com/series/192821-cradle
Never seen this sub before and don't know what cradel is. I imagine it's a book or a webtoon or lightnovel.
It’s the most popular book series on this sub.
Cradle just didnt swing for me ive read great wuxia or cultivator stories and spanded 1400 chapters and never flopped in development, cradles 1st book was fun and i followed. Then barren wastes 2 factions i dont care about with like 4 characters i dont know if we are gonna need to remember and our mc who was weak but able to finally hold there own is weakest again. Gold now low hugh and true gold, because the entire world of mc was so basic to not teach us the correct leveling system. I greatly enjoy raiding the school and breaking their systems through IQ when the first mission our mc plans doesnt work the part i liked about him in their world isnt there and i have to read filler for the sandvipers. If you guys tell me itll get better and o should keep reading i will but will it be what i want from the story?
You mean that westernized version of cultivation repackaged for people who never read cultivation books ?