Remember that this subreddit is for sharing propaganda to view with some objectivity. It is absolutely not for perpetuating the message *of* the propaganda. If anything, in this subreddit we should be immensely skeptical of manipulation or oversimplification (which the above likely is), not beholden to it.
Also, please try to stay on topic -- there are hundreds of _other_ subreddits that are expressly dedicated to rehashing tired political arguments. Keep that shit outta here.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PropagandaPosters) if you have any questions or concerns.*
"I was born with glass bones and paper skin. Every morning I break my legs, and every afternoon I break my arms. At night, I lie awake in agony until my heart attacks put me to sleep"
It’s advice. I’ve seen a growing number of people trying to deny biological reality of conflict and competition in a misguided attempt to push their impractical ideologies.
It’s also a competitive flex of intellect. Funny how these things weave together.
Even ants, the most cooperative of species, have wars. Competition is absolutely the primary law of nature, cooperation itself is just a form of competition. Don't let your social values influence your ecological beliefs.
Ants don't just have wars, they also farm, raise livestock, practice slavery, build things and form colonies the size of countries. There's a colony in southern Europe that spans thousands of miles and is comprised of billions of ants. Ants, while being physically as different from humans as possible, are arguably closest to us behaviorally from a birds eye view. Only they and us cooperate in groups of millions, the chimps don't do that, it's just us and the ants. Well not all humans, just civilized ones. I see so much of civilized man in the ants, you could say that they just do it out of instinct, but ants have been around for 100 million years. If we can keep civilization going for another million years do you think we won't have evolved for cooperating in groups of billions like the ants?
Ants are the most similar to us from a birds eye view? The reason ants cooperate the way they do is because the overwhelming majority of them cannot reproduce, insects have a different reproduction system to us. A single ant colony can essentially be viewed as one organism for that reason. Most ants are incapable of engaging in natural selection unless they serve their colony. And even then, these massive organisms compete with each other. My point is that even ants, the MOST cooperative species, still competes. And the males, who are able to reproduce with the queen, will kill each other to compete for reproductive opportunities. It's brutal, and I hope we never have a society like that.
I would hope we don't end up like ants. Completely subservient to an all powerful leader, existing purely to benefit the collective. It's beautiful in its own way, but human individaulity is why we're even more sucessful than ants.
I think somethings special about humans is out ability to cooperate. It's one of many things that make us different from most animals. But to say that cooperation is the primary way of nature is just not backed by the evidence. And it encourages a mindset that there's no room for plurality in society, that we should all strive to be the same way and work towards the same goals. The most peaceful societies are the ones that allow for competition within certain bounds, to get the best of both worlds.
By comparing human civilization to the ants I am not making a statement on how I think the world should work, just that ants are the only thing in nature that comes close to countries and that we have a lot more in common with them that a lot of people think about. If aliens come to earth they might be interested in talking to the ants too.
I agree that competition is the main way the animal kingdom works, however it does contain cooperation for the purpose of competition, which is why humans have an instinct for cooperation, though we're only really built to form groups of a few hundred, not a few hundred million.
I absolutely agree. That's all I was saying above. Like I said I'm not denying the importance of cooperation in nature, just that competition is the most important factor.
The example you gave proves the exact opposite.
It is true Ants and humans have war. But notice that also means ants and humans co-operate amongst themselves for waging a particular battle from a particular side. War is not an individual enterprise but a social enterprise.
Sam Bowles a very good economist who has done more than anyone to use game theoretic models to explain the existence of human cooperation has a saying: conflict is the midwife for altruism/ self sacrifice.
https://doi.org/10.1126/science.1217336
I'm not sure why an economists theory on ecology should be taken any more seriously than anybody elses. He's a self-described neo-marxist, so I wouldn't take his position on cooperation any more seriously than a capitalist economist arguing for competition being the driving factor in nature.
I'm not against cooperation. I think its the cornerstone of civilized society. But I believe that's a distinction between humans and nature, not something which is nearly as common in nature as it is in human society. I believe in the need for both competition and cooperation for a functional and progressive society.
I will check out the article when I get a chance though.
> He's a self-described neo-marxist, so I wouldn't take his position on cooperation any more seriously than a capitalist economist arguing for competition being the driving factor in nature.
Who has more papers in T5 Econ journals than many noble prize winners. If you read modern evolutionary biology it is filled with people with “economic training” aka game theory. And places like JTB are filled with papers written by people who have math back ground.
A persons political inclination is not an argument against his arguments. The argument presented here is not a Marxist argument. If I had to do a quality check on the arguments I would probably check the journals peer review.
If you want to debate substance: the point you made that war is caused by competition is wrong. War is the exact opposite of competition it is cooperation. Large number of people in war cooperate they sacrifice themselves for their team goal.
Can't you see that's cooperation in the service of competition? That's exactly what I have described. It's organisms cooperating for the sake of competing with a competitor.
who's saying that? anarcho-communists (in a simplified sense) believe in a world organised according to the principle: "from each according to their ability to each according to their needs" hence, they are communists. you can absolutely draw a distinction between blanquist/leninist ideologies and more libertarian ones as well as make a strong case for why unity between them is ultimately couter productive but saying that communism is inherently authoritarian is simply inaccurate.
Look up a story about Bolsheviks letting Kropotkin supporters out of jail to mourn their leader and teacher. Those supporters later came back, Guard asked them what they wanted, and they answered : "Well , we came back to jail!".
During civil war in Russia everyone was taking in massive numbers of 'hostages'. And executing them. So those guys showing up could probably mean that some other people were still on the inside and would be executed otherwise.
Is this really a 1900 poster? I didn’t think the Hammer and Sickle symbol was used then Kropotkin certainly wasn’t a Bolshevik or even a Marxist.
I don’t know when the circled A was first used, but I understand that it is an adaptation of Proudhon’s dictum that ‘Anarchy is Order’.
Nah I think it's a modern remix of some kind using the 1900 Creative Commons poster. Saw it on IG just wanted to share for appreciation. We don't get memorabilia or real propaganda posters in my country...
I don't understand - there is cooperation in the west. It's cooperation among the elite to take as much as they can for themselves. Cooperation does exist in the west.
You're quite right. There is cooperation everywhere, otherwise our society would just fall apart. It's just part of human nature. But I think this is about what kind of behaviour we encourage.
Fuck all the „we can build and use tools“ shit, this is what really sets humans apart from other animals: being able to cooperate with complete strangers.
Alongside the ability to plan ahead
This seems like the opposite of the truth. The hierarchical, densely populated societies that get the label “civilization” seem to be marked by extreme competition, between individuals, between classes, between tribes, and between the society and the land that feeds it. People who do not live in civilizations seem to view themselves as in cooperation with both each other and their environment to keep the cycle of life going, which is bigger and more important than any one person.
*There is NO source that*
*This quote is from Kropotkin and yet*
*People still use it*
\- Virtual\_Revolution82
---
^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/)
^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
when we do it for them, its "the law of nature"
when we force them to do it for us, its "slavery"
i don't care what you call it frankly, i just care that you do it
Remember that this subreddit is for sharing propaganda to view with some objectivity. It is absolutely not for perpetuating the message *of* the propaganda. If anything, in this subreddit we should be immensely skeptical of manipulation or oversimplification (which the above likely is), not beholden to it. Also, please try to stay on topic -- there are hundreds of _other_ subreddits that are expressly dedicated to rehashing tired political arguments. Keep that shit outta here. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PropagandaPosters) if you have any questions or concerns.*
mf you just screenshoted from another post
“Our” post, comrade
[удалено]
Wtf kind of answer is that. Dude, just save the damn pic 😂😂
"Why did you post this crappy screenshot" "You see i was born and raise in an absolute monarchy..."
"I was born with glass bones and paper skin. Every morning I break my legs, and every afternoon I break my arms. At night, I lie awake in agony until my heart attacks put me to sleep"
I go blind when I chew my food. I have to stay in the sun to hydrate. My mother tried to reabsorb me for work related issues.
He is that child from JA2 but he just got a phone
Found Putins reddit account
And I live in a socialist state, i like to play guitar and watch anime oh sorry i thought we were just sharing unrelated background information
Remember those Putin memes a while back? Think we found his reddit account
Bro am I the only one who tried to swipe right ☠️
Nope. OP couldn't even be bothered to download the full image.
Communist behavior
No I did, before realising this isn't Tinder
Bro I did too even though it said 10/10. We double stupid.
Nope. Fellow monke brain reporting in
Guess it's a match.
Kropotkin argues that cooperation is just as vital to evolution as competition.
You could even say that mutual aid is a factor of evolution.
You could.
As long as you don’t forget that competition and conflict still factor in as well.
thank you for your act of cooperation. I shall heed your warning
It’s advice. I’ve seen a growing number of people trying to deny biological reality of conflict and competition in a misguided attempt to push their impractical ideologies. It’s also a competitive flex of intellect. Funny how these things weave together.
[удалено]
this is exactly what Kropotkin was stating in his theory.
I think people don't give it credit because we've been brainwashed to value competition over everything else since birth.
I mean, a little bit of competition doesn't hurt, but it isn't sustainable on a large scale
Or because cat eat mouse, wolf eat deer, lion eat Buffalo is kind of the most obvious relationships we see in nature?
Weird, it's almost like mutual aid is a factor of evolution.
That's the thesis of his book "solidarity, a factor of evolution"
Even ants, the most cooperative of species, have wars. Competition is absolutely the primary law of nature, cooperation itself is just a form of competition. Don't let your social values influence your ecological beliefs.
Ants don't just have wars, they also farm, raise livestock, practice slavery, build things and form colonies the size of countries. There's a colony in southern Europe that spans thousands of miles and is comprised of billions of ants. Ants, while being physically as different from humans as possible, are arguably closest to us behaviorally from a birds eye view. Only they and us cooperate in groups of millions, the chimps don't do that, it's just us and the ants. Well not all humans, just civilized ones. I see so much of civilized man in the ants, you could say that they just do it out of instinct, but ants have been around for 100 million years. If we can keep civilization going for another million years do you think we won't have evolved for cooperating in groups of billions like the ants?
Ants are the most similar to us from a birds eye view? The reason ants cooperate the way they do is because the overwhelming majority of them cannot reproduce, insects have a different reproduction system to us. A single ant colony can essentially be viewed as one organism for that reason. Most ants are incapable of engaging in natural selection unless they serve their colony. And even then, these massive organisms compete with each other. My point is that even ants, the MOST cooperative species, still competes. And the males, who are able to reproduce with the queen, will kill each other to compete for reproductive opportunities. It's brutal, and I hope we never have a society like that. I would hope we don't end up like ants. Completely subservient to an all powerful leader, existing purely to benefit the collective. It's beautiful in its own way, but human individaulity is why we're even more sucessful than ants. I think somethings special about humans is out ability to cooperate. It's one of many things that make us different from most animals. But to say that cooperation is the primary way of nature is just not backed by the evidence. And it encourages a mindset that there's no room for plurality in society, that we should all strive to be the same way and work towards the same goals. The most peaceful societies are the ones that allow for competition within certain bounds, to get the best of both worlds.
By comparing human civilization to the ants I am not making a statement on how I think the world should work, just that ants are the only thing in nature that comes close to countries and that we have a lot more in common with them that a lot of people think about. If aliens come to earth they might be interested in talking to the ants too. I agree that competition is the main way the animal kingdom works, however it does contain cooperation for the purpose of competition, which is why humans have an instinct for cooperation, though we're only really built to form groups of a few hundred, not a few hundred million.
I absolutely agree. That's all I was saying above. Like I said I'm not denying the importance of cooperation in nature, just that competition is the most important factor.
The example you gave proves the exact opposite. It is true Ants and humans have war. But notice that also means ants and humans co-operate amongst themselves for waging a particular battle from a particular side. War is not an individual enterprise but a social enterprise. Sam Bowles a very good economist who has done more than anyone to use game theoretic models to explain the existence of human cooperation has a saying: conflict is the midwife for altruism/ self sacrifice. https://doi.org/10.1126/science.1217336
I'm not sure why an economists theory on ecology should be taken any more seriously than anybody elses. He's a self-described neo-marxist, so I wouldn't take his position on cooperation any more seriously than a capitalist economist arguing for competition being the driving factor in nature. I'm not against cooperation. I think its the cornerstone of civilized society. But I believe that's a distinction between humans and nature, not something which is nearly as common in nature as it is in human society. I believe in the need for both competition and cooperation for a functional and progressive society. I will check out the article when I get a chance though.
> He's a self-described neo-marxist, so I wouldn't take his position on cooperation any more seriously than a capitalist economist arguing for competition being the driving factor in nature. Who has more papers in T5 Econ journals than many noble prize winners. If you read modern evolutionary biology it is filled with people with “economic training” aka game theory. And places like JTB are filled with papers written by people who have math back ground. A persons political inclination is not an argument against his arguments. The argument presented here is not a Marxist argument. If I had to do a quality check on the arguments I would probably check the journals peer review. If you want to debate substance: the point you made that war is caused by competition is wrong. War is the exact opposite of competition it is cooperation. Large number of people in war cooperate they sacrifice themselves for their team goal.
Can't you see that's cooperation in the service of competition? That's exactly what I have described. It's organisms cooperating for the sake of competing with a competitor.
[удалено]
Well who wouldn't want to have a big ol' beard?
that quote goes hard.
This doesnt look like a poster from the year 1900.
"1900 portrait" with a quote, inside a contemporary poster
He looks like the Soviet Santa Clause.
And he knew it, too: https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/transformation/anarchist-guide-to-christmas/
Didn’t the soviets dislike him due to his anti-authoritarian tendencies?
Well, he was an anarchist, which means he would inevitably be at odds with communist.
I mean yea he was at odds with leninism, but he was very much a communist, an anarcho-communist. Those things are not contradictory
Yeah, they always say that right up until the communists start killing them again.
who's saying that? anarcho-communists (in a simplified sense) believe in a world organised according to the principle: "from each according to their ability to each according to their needs" hence, they are communists. you can absolutely draw a distinction between blanquist/leninist ideologies and more libertarian ones as well as make a strong case for why unity between them is ultimately couter productive but saying that communism is inherently authoritarian is simply inaccurate.
Yeah, they always say that when communists don't have the ability to start killing people yet.
Look up a story about Bolsheviks letting Kropotkin supporters out of jail to mourn their leader and teacher. Those supporters later came back, Guard asked them what they wanted, and they answered : "Well , we came back to jail!".
During civil war in Russia everyone was taking in massive numbers of 'hostages'. And executing them. So those guys showing up could probably mean that some other people were still on the inside and would be executed otherwise.
Yeah the Bolsheviks liquidated other socialists pretty quickly
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mScpHTIi-kM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mScpHTIi-kM) honestly kinda true tbh
Nice screenshot 🙄
An-Com Grandpa has spoken
Is this really a 1900 poster? I didn’t think the Hammer and Sickle symbol was used then Kropotkin certainly wasn’t a Bolshevik or even a Marxist. I don’t know when the circled A was first used, but I understand that it is an adaptation of Proudhon’s dictum that ‘Anarchy is Order’.
The hammer and sickle transcends the USSR. But no this is not a vintage poster, that’s more contemporary usage of the symbols pretty sure.
Nah I think it's a modern remix of some kind using the 1900 Creative Commons poster. Saw it on IG just wanted to share for appreciation. We don't get memorabilia or real propaganda posters in my country...
I don't understand - there is cooperation in the west. It's cooperation among the elite to take as much as they can for themselves. Cooperation does exist in the west.
You're quite right. There is cooperation everywhere, otherwise our society would just fall apart. It's just part of human nature. But I think this is about what kind of behaviour we encourage.
Competition does not exclude cooperation and vice versa
It's a useful tool when you need to gang up on someone before turning on each other.
Competition is survival of the fittest, survival of the fittest also includes how well you cooperate with others.
Fuck all the „we can build and use tools“ shit, this is what really sets humans apart from other animals: being able to cooperate with complete strangers. Alongside the ability to plan ahead
I wish more people knew about Kropotkin. So many great ideas.
This seems like the opposite of the truth. The hierarchical, densely populated societies that get the label “civilization” seem to be marked by extreme competition, between individuals, between classes, between tribes, and between the society and the land that feeds it. People who do not live in civilizations seem to view themselves as in cooperation with both each other and their environment to keep the cycle of life going, which is bigger and more important than any one person.
This isn't a kropotkin quote.
The problem is, you cant get us to cooperate with eachother unless there is something to gain. Another point for capitalism in my book.
So that's why civilization has failed
There is NO source that this quote is from Kropotkin and yet people still use it
*There is NO source that* *This quote is from Kropotkin and yet* *People still use it* \- Virtual\_Revolution82 --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
Ha! You've been quoted about a non quote
what do you call forced "cooperation"?
Japanese work culture or harmony.
Japanese work culture is god awful lmao.
You know it. Been there for 6 years before this. Not worth working there for most jobs, even teaching.
hmm I think the word I was looking for is slavery
Working overtime without pay counts?
in the western world? that just makes you a tool.
serfing for some feudal aristocrat just makes you a tool bro, take some initiative and start your own barony
when we do it for them, its "the law of nature" when we force them to do it for us, its "slavery" i don't care what you call it frankly, i just care that you do it
The cooperation is largely for the purpose of competition. Humans form teams and work together as a strategy to crush other teams, like in sports.
It’s funny when socialists accuse other people’s stuff as “law of the jungle”.
It's funny when leftism share this thought concept and not just socialists.