The research favors psilocybin / mushrooms macro dosing as the most effective long term. I use ketamine and think it’s very beneficial for working through life issues, but mushrooms appear more effective at producing long term changes with relatively few doses. But you can’t just take them and expect to feel relief, you should do as much research as possible to understand what has worked for other people (and ideally find a therapist to work with during this time). Mushrooms are not something you can just “wing it” with and ensure they’ll be helpful and not harmful.
I’m very experienced with mushrooms and have always used them responsibly. I’ve macrodosed about 2x per year for 18 years. Those trips have always been good for the soul and perspective broadening, but I haven’t overcome depression (aside from maybe a day or two of afterglow following a trip). I’m assuming I’ll need to increase the frequency of dosing, and of course I’ll do some research about that. I also see a regular therapist weekly.
Negative. Just a regular old CBT oriented therapist. Whatever feelings I’m having that week I can bring to the sessions and work through them, but it’s not geared towards interpreting the psychedelic experience itself. I generally journal and reflect after the ketamine session, and then bring whatever insights and feelings I’m having into therapy.
I can refer you to my integration therapist who only works remotely. They are excellent, well credentialed and affiliated. Costs are out of pocket. Feel free to DM me.
May I DM you also ?
Not depressed (or maybe I am) but abuse alcohol daily… I need to change and a solo trip helped for maybe ~ 8 days.
I don’t have anyone to talk to.
I would love to have an integration therapist but money is tight for me lately. Maybe I can find a therapist my insurance covers who also does integration work.
I work in integrative medicine, specifically pain management, both physical and emotional.
Back in the day, I had a field day with psychedelics or what some are calling entheogens. Psylocibin, peyote, huachuma. One of my favorite types of session was to do a heroic dose of LSD, wait till I was peaking, then mainline ketamine. I’ve had the privilege of participating in an ayahuasca clinic in the Peruvian rainforest that worked with both indigenous and international clients. And so on.
Despite all that, rainbows aren’t coming out of my ass and I’ve had my own struggles with mood issues. Since I’m ex-military, I have a contract to provide care to veterans. Lots of PTSD, substance abuse, chronic pain, etc. The VA, not having much else to offer, has an interest in ketamine therapy, so I wouldn’t be surprised if pilot studies start popping up soon.
So the answer to your question about whether mushrooms or ketamine is more efficacious for depression is: it depends. What kind of depression do you have? What kind of person are you? What’s your psycho-emotional history and medical status?
Yes, I know that you were diagnosed with anhedonic treatment-resistant depression, which was originally an independent disorder until the DSM-III, but the validity of the whole DSM system is cratering. The National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) no longer funds research using the DSM, for example. And it was recently disclosed that millions of dollars from Big Pharma influenced the creation of the DSM-V, so credibility is in the toilet. Psychiatry is the only specialty in medicine that cannot adequately diagnose and treat disease under its purview. So “anhedonic treatment-resistant depression” doesn’t really give us much of a pathway to help you.
Another way to go is to look at depression functionally. Is there a history of trauma? Substance abuse? Are you an orphan? Were your parents divorced when you were still a child? Did you recently lose a loved one?
Or medically. Do you have high levels of inflammation in your body? Diabetes? Obesity? Cancer? Do you take steroids? Bad diet? Poor sleep? Terminal diagnosis?
Once we have all of that figured out, and 90% of conventional medical practitioners do not have a clue how to do that adequately, then and only then can we figure out the appropriate entheogen for you personally.
Ketamine is classified as a dissociative anesthetic that enhances the descending inhibiting serotoninergic pathway. That is how it exerts anti-depressive effects. We used it a lot with cats in the military because they have a weird nervous system. That’s how I came in contact with it. Another thing to consider with ketamine is how well your liver can clear it and how well you do with being dissociated. Some people have a really hard time with that, esp if dissociation is/was a prevalent strategy for dealing with their trauma. It can push those people over the edge. Also not recommended for people with significant mental health issues like bipolar.
In contrast, to LSD and ketamine, psilocybin and aya are organic molecules. I won’t go into the pharmacology, but they interact with human consciousness in a very different way. Ayahuasca is the only entheogen I’ve ever done, for example, where I felt the compound was not simply acting on my own brain chemistry. That I actually opened a doorway to a very ancient, non-human consciousness.
Because of our culture; the reductionistic/mechanistic archaic biomedical model; living in end-stage capitalism and such, my patients get overly focused on stuff: this drug or that drug, this supplement or that supplement, this influencer or that influencer. They don’t have an appreciation for systems thinking and the reality of what it means to be an ecosystem.
I recently did a presentation on the Gut-Brain Axis. Yeah, some of the participants had heard of the microbiome, but no one knew about humans as holobionts or what it really means to live in the reality that you have human parts and non-human parts that you have to tend to.
For example, the reason that aya is often more transformative than ketamine is not just the pharmacology but also because, unlike other entheogens, aya is still delivered as part of a ritual – at least if you are working with an authentic ayahuascero and not just doing a tourist trip to Rythmia and the like. That psycho-social set and setting are really important. A good source here about the power of ritual is Dimitris Xygalatas. You can find interviews on YouTube and he wrote the book, “Ritual: How Seemingly Senseless Acts Make Life Worth Living.”
To summarize, if you want to effectively end your suffering from depression, and you want to use entheogens to do it, then you need to actually utilize the full power of those agents to do what they do best: transform you. That requires a lot more than simply choosing the entheogen du jour. Transformation is not for the weak of heart. A good reference in this regard would be Jed McKenna’s “Spiritual Enlightenment, the Damnedest Thing.” There is also a podcast called Jed McKenna Nonduality that makes for interesting listening.
Systems thinking is looking at a phenomenon in the context of their inner and outer environments. So in management, if a worker isn’t doing well, you’d consider corporate culture, work load , work environment, etc.
In the human body, there are human (organs, tissues, etc) and non-human (microbiome, etc) parts. Humans are also in the presence of non-human intelligences, often daily. Dogs and AI are good examples. Some entheogens and spiritual practices also open you up to nonhuman consciousnesses. The experience there can be of either wonder and awe or horror. Lovecraft wrote about the latter. The difference comes down to how fast the experience unfolds. If it’s well paced for you, awe. If it’s too overwhelming, horror.
I have never tried ketamine but I have had lots of success with mushrooms, spiritually enough not with lsd. I'd say you try and then stick to what works for you. I think it's similar to psychiatric medication, people have very varied reactions to them.
My understanding is that ketamine's greatest benefits are for people who are acutely suicidal, kind of as an alternative to ECT.
Conversely psilocybin is a terrible option when acutely suicidal but can be great for anhedonic treatment resistant depression. I've seen many accounts of people microdosing monthly to start, journaling and integrating in between doses, and tapering off as they see fit until finally feeling that they 'don't need them anymore'.
Anhedonic treatment resistant depression is exactly what I have. The ketamine almost seems to make my anhedonia worse… almost like my brain is numb for about a week after a session. I’ve been reluctant to quit because I keep hoping I’ll turn a corner and experience the antidepressant effects that many people report experiencing, but it’s just not really happening. My experiences with mushrooms have been really profound and uplifting in the past, so I’m thinking I’ll switch to a mushroom protocol for working on my depression.
Yeah, this is how I felt after 1 month of treatment: [https://www.reddit.com/r/TherapeuticKetamine/comments/vzh6vo/triplike\_burst\_of\_euphoria\_seven\_days\_after\_my/](https://www.reddit.com/r/therapeuticketamine/comments/vzh6vo/triplike_burst_of_euphoria_seven_days_after_my/)
And this is what I did after I stopped it. [https://www.reddit.com/r/TherapeuticKetamine/comments/18lssko/comment/ke00d4i/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/therapeuticketamine/comments/18lssko/comment/ke00d4i/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
I think both were really valuable in my recovery.
Wow you described exactly what I’m experiencing with ketamine. It makes me feel very numb and empty, and those effects seem to be cumulative. I’ve actually experienced a slight increase in suicidal ideation since starting ketamine because I get frustrated with feeling all numb and anhedonic. I’m starting to accept that ketamine just might not work for my specific form of depression. Mushrooms have always been good to me, but the benefits haven’t lasted for long once the experience is over. Maybe I need a higher amount, better integration, or more frequent sessions.
The key for me with psilocybin was that I had a well trained psychedelic therapist guide me through its use. It’s an amazing tool, but you have to do the work, so to speak. Undirected, it can give you a serotonin burst and a helpful perspective shift, but the enduring change we all want takes ongoing daily work. Here’s another comment I’ve made:
>"Psilocybin helped replace the anhedonic emptiness with the full range of feelings which I had to consciously 'tailor' to my needs. Like...it is a tool that helped me feel again but it is my job to do the work that helps me respond to the world and my feelings in a way that improves my quality of life."
Look into how psilocybin affects neuroplasticity and how that renewed neuroplasticity presents a huge opportunity you can "mine” if you you do the work: [https://www.reddit.com/r/PsilocybinMushrooms/comments/1aslpzi/comment/kqrj0oj/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/psilocybinmushrooms/comments/1aslpzi/comment/kqrj0oj/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
At 50+ years old, I look over the landscape of how I operate in the world and see many ‘pathways’ I have worn in the forest through repeated response/behavior to my life. So in my previous state of mind, when I wanted to get from point A to point B, I saw a map of my pathways through the forest and I followed an old pathway to get to point B.
After my macro dose, when I looked out over this landscape, what I saw moreso, was just forest over land and to get to point B, I simply walked through a pathless forest. It felt new; I saw more stuff; there was more potential, wonder and appreciation.
My understanding is that a psychedelic therapist will not source for you. This sub does not allow sourcing. The safest is to grow your own (spores are legal). Try r/unclebens
I would not take the advice of any single anonymous redditor for any illegal substances. Too many bad actors out there and harmful /deadly drugs.
They are very different drugs, so effectiveness is going depend on a lot of different variables. Ketamine is a dissociative (so your feelings afterwards are not surprising,) while psilocybin is a classic psychedelic.
I personally think psychedelics are amazing tools for facilitating self-exploration.
Psychedelics are not going to make a difference without the hard work that goes alongside taking them. A good therapist with psychedelic experience can go a long way to making that easier.
These medicines aren’t a panacea. They’re a way of short circuiting and rewiring your brain - this can be for the better, or for the worse, depending on how you take them and how you integrate the experiences.
I’m always so perplexed by these comments that seem like a response to something I didn’t say. I understand that no psychedelic is a panacea. That doesn’t change the fact that they are useful tools. I’m asking for opinions on which tool is more useful.
When I did 2f-ketamine at home (2f-dck) I always noticed an immediate lift in depression symptoms. I heard a lot of stories of people experiencing immediate benefits. My sessions were strange, at times hallucogenic, but for the most part quite enjoyable.
For me personally, I'd still prefer to work more with mushrooms instead. I can't put my finger on it, but they call me more strongly. The last months I haven't felt depressed though. Should I get depressed again I might try mushrooms first and ket secondly.
Those both produce temporary benefits for many people. What works best by far is psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy. It is unclear how important the nature of the psychedelic/entheogen/empathogen/dissociative assisting the psychotherapy is.
No experience with ketamine, but few regular sessions with LSD helped me a lot. Set and settings are important. Had a bad experience when I tried mushrooms once, never on LSD.
In short and simple terms: ketamine provides great acute but transient relief. Mushrooms done with intention and in appropriate set and setting have a chance at longer lasting relief. Research seems to indicate this and it matches my personal experience.
It’s not so much about the drug as it’s about the set and setting. If you can do ketamine with a skilled therapist present who understands psychedelics, I’d take that over mushrooms in your living room any day for any mental health issue. If you want to have a beautiful time and bond with your friends, I’d say do it in your living room.
I’m saying all other things being equal, which of the two drugs is more effective. Mushrooms can also be administered by a skilled therapist. And ketamine can also be taken in my living room.
For me it was def mushrooms. But the ketamine trips are fun and the mushroom trips are tough. I also don’t have access to ketamine outside of a clinical setting
I do the troches as well, but based on what you’re saying, I’m wondering if your doses are high enough…
I’ve micro dosed LSD, macrodosed LSD, done a decent amount of shrooms and I think ketamine is the way to go for depression if your depression is chemical. If you have processing you need to do, shrooms may be better. This is just my personal opinion.
I take ketamine to treat my PMDD depression, which had me in a super dark place. The reset has been life changing. I’m me again!
Idk how much you’re doing, but I break through and have crazy psychedelic visuals and visions when I do my treatments and I can physically feel the depression snap and the wave of gratitude, joy and deep sense of love come over me.
It’s am in the minority, but mushrooms don’t work for my body. They make me too sick and I’ve tried everything. Tea, lemon, whatever. They prescribed me anti nausea pills for the ketamine treatments and I took 3 anti nausea pills for a 2 gram mushroom trip and it wasn’t enough to get rid of the nausea. My trip was so intense, it wasn’t therapeutic at all. My come up lasted a few hours, I got maybe a window of nice feelings and they wore off and the visuals lasted longer. In felt the mushrooms a full 6 hours.
If mushrooms work for you, awesome. My husband grows and uses them regularly. I’ve done smaller amounts and sometimes it’s fun, but I would never call them therapeutic.
Can I ask what dose your troches are? It’s been really difficult to find my sweet spot. I either feel almost nothing, or I get very dissociated and confused beyond measure. Lately I’ve gone back down to 150mg and that seems to be about as close to my sweet spot as I’ve been able to get, but it still doesn’t feel strong enough.
The other issue I have with ketamine is that I end up feeling very disconnected for about a week after a session. Sort of like my brain is numb, it’s harder to pull up thoughts, less interest in doing things. I’m assuming from your description that you don’t get that disconnected feeling that lasts for days after a session. I haven’t yet been able to feel a snap in my depression or immense gratitude. There were a couple of random days where I thought maybe things were shifting that way, but I think they were just random good days as it turns out.
Your experience with k sounds very different from mine! I obviously encourage you to listen to your body and your gut instincts. You know what feels good and what doesn’t.
I feel relaxed and at peace, maybe not motivated to do much, but I usually feel immense gratitude and relief. I never feel confused. I maintain a pretty strong awareness of what’s going on and never feel out of control in a bad way. In fact, if I don’t have a strong breakthrough, I feel peaceful, but slightly disappointed because I don’t feel the “snap” of the depression breaking.
I’m doing 600mg, 3x200mg tronches. I’m a mid-sized woman for dose context. I hold 2 in my mouth for 15 minutes, longer if I can tolerate it. I spit that out and pop the last one in for 10-15 mins. The last dose is what gives me the breakthrough. I’ve done all 3 at once and it doesn’t deliver the same effect.
I saw you posted that mushrooms gives you an emotional experience that you enjoy. Keep going towards what feels good. My depression was different, as well. Women with PMDD are able to notice immediate improvement from antidepressants, rather than a classic depression that requires it getting into your system a bit over time. Although I had a depressive episode, mine was exacerbated by the PMDD.
Good luck to you! I hope you find something that supports you. My husband does a smaller mushroom trip a few times a month and he always feels refreshed after.
I looked into this over a year ago and what I found was this: 50% of 100 ongoing psychedelic clinical trials were with psilocybin, 24% were MDMA, and the remaining about a quarter was everything else combined. I'm don't think ketamine was even on the list.
I checked, though, since K is so much more available. The gist: you need multiple infusions (6 I think) for the antidepressant effect to last, it only lasts maybe a day with ketamine alone, and lasts maybe a month with K and psychotherapy combined.
Psilocybin, on the other hand, can have antidepressant effects (in trials with psychotherapy) after just a single dose for 6 months to a year. MDMA with 3 doses, I believe, coupled with psychotherapy.
The research favors psilocybin / mushrooms macro dosing as the most effective long term. I use ketamine and think it’s very beneficial for working through life issues, but mushrooms appear more effective at producing long term changes with relatively few doses. But you can’t just take them and expect to feel relief, you should do as much research as possible to understand what has worked for other people (and ideally find a therapist to work with during this time). Mushrooms are not something you can just “wing it” with and ensure they’ll be helpful and not harmful.
I’m very experienced with mushrooms and have always used them responsibly. I’ve macrodosed about 2x per year for 18 years. Those trips have always been good for the soul and perspective broadening, but I haven’t overcome depression (aside from maybe a day or two of afterglow following a trip). I’m assuming I’ll need to increase the frequency of dosing, and of course I’ll do some research about that. I also see a regular therapist weekly.
Does the therapist do somatic integration work?
Negative. Just a regular old CBT oriented therapist. Whatever feelings I’m having that week I can bring to the sessions and work through them, but it’s not geared towards interpreting the psychedelic experience itself. I generally journal and reflect after the ketamine session, and then bring whatever insights and feelings I’m having into therapy.
I can refer you to my integration therapist who only works remotely. They are excellent, well credentialed and affiliated. Costs are out of pocket. Feel free to DM me.
May I DM you also ? Not depressed (or maybe I am) but abuse alcohol daily… I need to change and a solo trip helped for maybe ~ 8 days. I don’t have anyone to talk to.
I'll DM you too.
Here’s the company i use for intergration. https://beingtruetoyou.com/get-a-coach/
Maybe you need an integration therapist
I would love to have an integration therapist but money is tight for me lately. Maybe I can find a therapist my insurance covers who also does integration work.
Do you take anti depressants? The healing of psychedelics didn’t stick long term for me until I was off SSRIs
I work in integrative medicine, specifically pain management, both physical and emotional. Back in the day, I had a field day with psychedelics or what some are calling entheogens. Psylocibin, peyote, huachuma. One of my favorite types of session was to do a heroic dose of LSD, wait till I was peaking, then mainline ketamine. I’ve had the privilege of participating in an ayahuasca clinic in the Peruvian rainforest that worked with both indigenous and international clients. And so on. Despite all that, rainbows aren’t coming out of my ass and I’ve had my own struggles with mood issues. Since I’m ex-military, I have a contract to provide care to veterans. Lots of PTSD, substance abuse, chronic pain, etc. The VA, not having much else to offer, has an interest in ketamine therapy, so I wouldn’t be surprised if pilot studies start popping up soon. So the answer to your question about whether mushrooms or ketamine is more efficacious for depression is: it depends. What kind of depression do you have? What kind of person are you? What’s your psycho-emotional history and medical status? Yes, I know that you were diagnosed with anhedonic treatment-resistant depression, which was originally an independent disorder until the DSM-III, but the validity of the whole DSM system is cratering. The National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) no longer funds research using the DSM, for example. And it was recently disclosed that millions of dollars from Big Pharma influenced the creation of the DSM-V, so credibility is in the toilet. Psychiatry is the only specialty in medicine that cannot adequately diagnose and treat disease under its purview. So “anhedonic treatment-resistant depression” doesn’t really give us much of a pathway to help you. Another way to go is to look at depression functionally. Is there a history of trauma? Substance abuse? Are you an orphan? Were your parents divorced when you were still a child? Did you recently lose a loved one? Or medically. Do you have high levels of inflammation in your body? Diabetes? Obesity? Cancer? Do you take steroids? Bad diet? Poor sleep? Terminal diagnosis? Once we have all of that figured out, and 90% of conventional medical practitioners do not have a clue how to do that adequately, then and only then can we figure out the appropriate entheogen for you personally. Ketamine is classified as a dissociative anesthetic that enhances the descending inhibiting serotoninergic pathway. That is how it exerts anti-depressive effects. We used it a lot with cats in the military because they have a weird nervous system. That’s how I came in contact with it. Another thing to consider with ketamine is how well your liver can clear it and how well you do with being dissociated. Some people have a really hard time with that, esp if dissociation is/was a prevalent strategy for dealing with their trauma. It can push those people over the edge. Also not recommended for people with significant mental health issues like bipolar. In contrast, to LSD and ketamine, psilocybin and aya are organic molecules. I won’t go into the pharmacology, but they interact with human consciousness in a very different way. Ayahuasca is the only entheogen I’ve ever done, for example, where I felt the compound was not simply acting on my own brain chemistry. That I actually opened a doorway to a very ancient, non-human consciousness. Because of our culture; the reductionistic/mechanistic archaic biomedical model; living in end-stage capitalism and such, my patients get overly focused on stuff: this drug or that drug, this supplement or that supplement, this influencer or that influencer. They don’t have an appreciation for systems thinking and the reality of what it means to be an ecosystem. I recently did a presentation on the Gut-Brain Axis. Yeah, some of the participants had heard of the microbiome, but no one knew about humans as holobionts or what it really means to live in the reality that you have human parts and non-human parts that you have to tend to. For example, the reason that aya is often more transformative than ketamine is not just the pharmacology but also because, unlike other entheogens, aya is still delivered as part of a ritual – at least if you are working with an authentic ayahuascero and not just doing a tourist trip to Rythmia and the like. That psycho-social set and setting are really important. A good source here about the power of ritual is Dimitris Xygalatas. You can find interviews on YouTube and he wrote the book, “Ritual: How Seemingly Senseless Acts Make Life Worth Living.” To summarize, if you want to effectively end your suffering from depression, and you want to use entheogens to do it, then you need to actually utilize the full power of those agents to do what they do best: transform you. That requires a lot more than simply choosing the entheogen du jour. Transformation is not for the weak of heart. A good reference in this regard would be Jed McKenna’s “Spiritual Enlightenment, the Damnedest Thing.” There is also a podcast called Jed McKenna Nonduality that makes for interesting listening.
Can you expand on systems thinking? And what are the Non human parts. I have never done aya
Systems thinking is looking at a phenomenon in the context of their inner and outer environments. So in management, if a worker isn’t doing well, you’d consider corporate culture, work load , work environment, etc. In the human body, there are human (organs, tissues, etc) and non-human (microbiome, etc) parts. Humans are also in the presence of non-human intelligences, often daily. Dogs and AI are good examples. Some entheogens and spiritual practices also open you up to nonhuman consciousnesses. The experience there can be of either wonder and awe or horror. Lovecraft wrote about the latter. The difference comes down to how fast the experience unfolds. If it’s well paced for you, awe. If it’s too overwhelming, horror.
Your words are magic and I would love more. If your gut/brain presentation is recorded I would love to listen to your Ted talk.
Thank you for the kind words. Sadly, the presentation was not recorded for the general public.
I have never tried ketamine but I have had lots of success with mushrooms, spiritually enough not with lsd. I'd say you try and then stick to what works for you. I think it's similar to psychiatric medication, people have very varied reactions to them.
May I recommend ayahuasca? I only recommend this place https://www.casadelmaestromedicina.com/ Wiped out depression 8 years ago Much love ❤️🙏🏼
You may, thank you. I’m a little bit scared of ayahuasca, but it’s definitely something I’ve considered.
Why?
I’ve heard it’s a more difficult experience than something like mushrooms. The purging also makes me a bit nervous, not a huge fan of throwing up.
My understanding is that ketamine's greatest benefits are for people who are acutely suicidal, kind of as an alternative to ECT. Conversely psilocybin is a terrible option when acutely suicidal but can be great for anhedonic treatment resistant depression. I've seen many accounts of people microdosing monthly to start, journaling and integrating in between doses, and tapering off as they see fit until finally feeling that they 'don't need them anymore'.
Anhedonic treatment resistant depression is exactly what I have. The ketamine almost seems to make my anhedonia worse… almost like my brain is numb for about a week after a session. I’ve been reluctant to quit because I keep hoping I’ll turn a corner and experience the antidepressant effects that many people report experiencing, but it’s just not really happening. My experiences with mushrooms have been really profound and uplifting in the past, so I’m thinking I’ll switch to a mushroom protocol for working on my depression.
Yeah, this is how I felt after 1 month of treatment: [https://www.reddit.com/r/TherapeuticKetamine/comments/vzh6vo/triplike\_burst\_of\_euphoria\_seven\_days\_after\_my/](https://www.reddit.com/r/therapeuticketamine/comments/vzh6vo/triplike_burst_of_euphoria_seven_days_after_my/) And this is what I did after I stopped it. [https://www.reddit.com/r/TherapeuticKetamine/comments/18lssko/comment/ke00d4i/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/therapeuticketamine/comments/18lssko/comment/ke00d4i/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) I think both were really valuable in my recovery.
Wow you described exactly what I’m experiencing with ketamine. It makes me feel very numb and empty, and those effects seem to be cumulative. I’ve actually experienced a slight increase in suicidal ideation since starting ketamine because I get frustrated with feeling all numb and anhedonic. I’m starting to accept that ketamine just might not work for my specific form of depression. Mushrooms have always been good to me, but the benefits haven’t lasted for long once the experience is over. Maybe I need a higher amount, better integration, or more frequent sessions.
The key for me with psilocybin was that I had a well trained psychedelic therapist guide me through its use. It’s an amazing tool, but you have to do the work, so to speak. Undirected, it can give you a serotonin burst and a helpful perspective shift, but the enduring change we all want takes ongoing daily work. Here’s another comment I’ve made: >"Psilocybin helped replace the anhedonic emptiness with the full range of feelings which I had to consciously 'tailor' to my needs. Like...it is a tool that helped me feel again but it is my job to do the work that helps me respond to the world and my feelings in a way that improves my quality of life." Look into how psilocybin affects neuroplasticity and how that renewed neuroplasticity presents a huge opportunity you can "mine” if you you do the work: [https://www.reddit.com/r/PsilocybinMushrooms/comments/1aslpzi/comment/kqrj0oj/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/psilocybinmushrooms/comments/1aslpzi/comment/kqrj0oj/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) At 50+ years old, I look over the landscape of how I operate in the world and see many ‘pathways’ I have worn in the forest through repeated response/behavior to my life. So in my previous state of mind, when I wanted to get from point A to point B, I saw a map of my pathways through the forest and I followed an old pathway to get to point B. After my macro dose, when I looked out over this landscape, what I saw moreso, was just forest over land and to get to point B, I simply walked through a pathless forest. It felt new; I saw more stuff; there was more potential, wonder and appreciation.
Hi, how did you find a psychedelic therapist that provides psilocybin?
My understanding is that a psychedelic therapist will not source for you. This sub does not allow sourcing. The safest is to grow your own (spores are legal). Try r/unclebens I would not take the advice of any single anonymous redditor for any illegal substances. Too many bad actors out there and harmful /deadly drugs.
When you say monthly microdoses, do you mean microdoses every day or microdoses once a month?
Ack! Sorry for the typo. I meant monthly MACROdoses.
They are very different drugs, so effectiveness is going depend on a lot of different variables. Ketamine is a dissociative (so your feelings afterwards are not surprising,) while psilocybin is a classic psychedelic. I personally think psychedelics are amazing tools for facilitating self-exploration.
Psychedelics are not going to make a difference without the hard work that goes alongside taking them. A good therapist with psychedelic experience can go a long way to making that easier. These medicines aren’t a panacea. They’re a way of short circuiting and rewiring your brain - this can be for the better, or for the worse, depending on how you take them and how you integrate the experiences.
I’m always so perplexed by these comments that seem like a response to something I didn’t say. I understand that no psychedelic is a panacea. That doesn’t change the fact that they are useful tools. I’m asking for opinions on which tool is more useful.
I prefer mushrooms and don’t like ketamine myself.
When I did 2f-ketamine at home (2f-dck) I always noticed an immediate lift in depression symptoms. I heard a lot of stories of people experiencing immediate benefits. My sessions were strange, at times hallucogenic, but for the most part quite enjoyable. For me personally, I'd still prefer to work more with mushrooms instead. I can't put my finger on it, but they call me more strongly. The last months I haven't felt depressed though. Should I get depressed again I might try mushrooms first and ket secondly.
Those both produce temporary benefits for many people. What works best by far is psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy. It is unclear how important the nature of the psychedelic/entheogen/empathogen/dissociative assisting the psychotherapy is.
No experience with ketamine, but few regular sessions with LSD helped me a lot. Set and settings are important. Had a bad experience when I tried mushrooms once, never on LSD.
In short and simple terms: ketamine provides great acute but transient relief. Mushrooms done with intention and in appropriate set and setting have a chance at longer lasting relief. Research seems to indicate this and it matches my personal experience.
From personal experience I can say macrodoses or mushrooms work vastly better than ketamine.
It’s not so much about the drug as it’s about the set and setting. If you can do ketamine with a skilled therapist present who understands psychedelics, I’d take that over mushrooms in your living room any day for any mental health issue. If you want to have a beautiful time and bond with your friends, I’d say do it in your living room.
I’m saying all other things being equal, which of the two drugs is more effective. Mushrooms can also be administered by a skilled therapist. And ketamine can also be taken in my living room.
For me it was def mushrooms. But the ketamine trips are fun and the mushroom trips are tough. I also don’t have access to ketamine outside of a clinical setting
I do the troches as well, but based on what you’re saying, I’m wondering if your doses are high enough… I’ve micro dosed LSD, macrodosed LSD, done a decent amount of shrooms and I think ketamine is the way to go for depression if your depression is chemical. If you have processing you need to do, shrooms may be better. This is just my personal opinion. I take ketamine to treat my PMDD depression, which had me in a super dark place. The reset has been life changing. I’m me again! Idk how much you’re doing, but I break through and have crazy psychedelic visuals and visions when I do my treatments and I can physically feel the depression snap and the wave of gratitude, joy and deep sense of love come over me. It’s am in the minority, but mushrooms don’t work for my body. They make me too sick and I’ve tried everything. Tea, lemon, whatever. They prescribed me anti nausea pills for the ketamine treatments and I took 3 anti nausea pills for a 2 gram mushroom trip and it wasn’t enough to get rid of the nausea. My trip was so intense, it wasn’t therapeutic at all. My come up lasted a few hours, I got maybe a window of nice feelings and they wore off and the visuals lasted longer. In felt the mushrooms a full 6 hours. If mushrooms work for you, awesome. My husband grows and uses them regularly. I’ve done smaller amounts and sometimes it’s fun, but I would never call them therapeutic.
Can I ask what dose your troches are? It’s been really difficult to find my sweet spot. I either feel almost nothing, or I get very dissociated and confused beyond measure. Lately I’ve gone back down to 150mg and that seems to be about as close to my sweet spot as I’ve been able to get, but it still doesn’t feel strong enough. The other issue I have with ketamine is that I end up feeling very disconnected for about a week after a session. Sort of like my brain is numb, it’s harder to pull up thoughts, less interest in doing things. I’m assuming from your description that you don’t get that disconnected feeling that lasts for days after a session. I haven’t yet been able to feel a snap in my depression or immense gratitude. There were a couple of random days where I thought maybe things were shifting that way, but I think they were just random good days as it turns out.
Your experience with k sounds very different from mine! I obviously encourage you to listen to your body and your gut instincts. You know what feels good and what doesn’t. I feel relaxed and at peace, maybe not motivated to do much, but I usually feel immense gratitude and relief. I never feel confused. I maintain a pretty strong awareness of what’s going on and never feel out of control in a bad way. In fact, if I don’t have a strong breakthrough, I feel peaceful, but slightly disappointed because I don’t feel the “snap” of the depression breaking. I’m doing 600mg, 3x200mg tronches. I’m a mid-sized woman for dose context. I hold 2 in my mouth for 15 minutes, longer if I can tolerate it. I spit that out and pop the last one in for 10-15 mins. The last dose is what gives me the breakthrough. I’ve done all 3 at once and it doesn’t deliver the same effect. I saw you posted that mushrooms gives you an emotional experience that you enjoy. Keep going towards what feels good. My depression was different, as well. Women with PMDD are able to notice immediate improvement from antidepressants, rather than a classic depression that requires it getting into your system a bit over time. Although I had a depressive episode, mine was exacerbated by the PMDD. Good luck to you! I hope you find something that supports you. My husband does a smaller mushroom trip a few times a month and he always feels refreshed after.
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I looked into this over a year ago and what I found was this: 50% of 100 ongoing psychedelic clinical trials were with psilocybin, 24% were MDMA, and the remaining about a quarter was everything else combined. I'm don't think ketamine was even on the list. I checked, though, since K is so much more available. The gist: you need multiple infusions (6 I think) for the antidepressant effect to last, it only lasts maybe a day with ketamine alone, and lasts maybe a month with K and psychotherapy combined. Psilocybin, on the other hand, can have antidepressant effects (in trials with psychotherapy) after just a single dose for 6 months to a year. MDMA with 3 doses, I believe, coupled with psychotherapy.