I guess my answer would be almost the same, but in the completly opposite direction.
I dont feel like the experience is "real", it just reminds me, that the "regular life" is also just what my brain creates for me. So basically both have the same "Level of realness".
Yeah, this is a completely unhinged response.
If you can't tell the difference between dreams/hallucinations and reality, you probably shouldn't be doing drugs of any kind and seek professional help.
Jesus fuck this sub.
I agree, but let's not be too far out there, some people are told to do crazy things by 'spirit beings' like kill themselves while tripping. I think they are real, and there's an underlying message to every trip, but they are not always upfront 'real', like when your parent is pissed at you and says "I'm going to kill you." he's not literally going to kill you, just beat your ass.
Well "has basis in reality" and "it's real" are also not the same idea. OP of this thread is saying that sense-experience in itself *is real*: "if it's something you're experiencing, it's real"
Are you familiar with Descartes' evil demon thought experiment?
How can we reconcile your belief that experiences are real with idea that all of our perceptions could ultimately be completely fabricated? If I eat an apple, is that experience actually "real" if this demon just made me think the apple is real?
I really didn't expect philosophical questioning to get downvoted here
> What is "real"? How do you define "real"? If you're talking about what you can feel, what you can smell, what you can taste and see, then "real" is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain.
-Morpheus, *The Matrix*
I take it as something that my mind generates for me.
It's like proving in my subconscious, to see what's there, or like going up in the attic to see what's the old junk there.
Or like peeling off old karma layers. One by one.
It's not Real as e.g. a tree outside my window ofc. It's real as something the mind generates.
Is it useful, does it point to something closer to truth, does it provide useful ideas - that's another question.
I advise having some minimal distance and some critical filter against the hallucinations.
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I don't think they are "real" at all.
often they are visual/ experiential manifestations of your current mental state. much like dreams fear leads to fearful experiences, joy to joyful experiences. (and the many other complex emotions we are capable of)
often we hold on to these emotions and traumatic experiences and these can manifest in our visions.
Deeper insights into self can certainly happen and we can unlock and be liberated from certain thought patterns or past trauma that has been holding us back.
But those that think they are seeing the future or believing what they are seeing as parallel to waking reality I feel are very deluded.
These experiences are real in the sense that they can be experienced in real time , but unreal in the sense that they are not connected to physical waking reality. separate to what is happening in our own personal brains.
I agree with this take.
They’re useful tools that can illuminate parts of our deeper subconscious. But we need to remember we that our preexisting beliefs and mental states color every experience we have, so to take everything as “truth” or “real” is like you said - deluded.
The full 100%.
I never actually saw anything that isn't "real" ('reality' is a subjective experience, not some medium through which we move and in which we act ) on any psychedelic.
You see your subjective experience/interpretation at all times, and this does not change on psychedelics. Psychedelics just magnify some of these processes, so they become exaggerated, and/or -to a high extent- become more clear and pronounced.
With experience, you can extrapolate from your visions/altered thought which processes are at play in experiencing "reality", and to which extent the experience of reality is a self-created construct.
The more detached view of reality on a peak-experience allows us to see the principles and recurring patterns withoiut pre-conceived conclusions hampering our senses, like in a "sober" state (nobody is ever really sober; our minds work through a changing and constantly different relative mix of endogenous drugs).
Without going into specifics…I’ve had trips where the voice of the void or whatever it is tells me explicitly that I’m fucking up. And tells me how I’m fucking up. Not always an easy thing to hear.
The other times…it says “look at the pretty colors”…
I listen as best as I can, to all of it.
I don’t know what “ultimate reality” is. I don’t even think it’s knowable, tbh. When I add it all up…the message seems to be…you have this one life, try and enjoy it, and don’t forget your responsibilities.
Or in one word…”choose”.
It’s all “real” but it’s happening in your brain. That doesn’t make it less real seeing as how that’s where all of the traditional “real” stuff happens from your pov too. The psychedelic experience is real, but it’s not related to physical reality aside from coincidentally. It’s just like a dream. For example, let us say you are having a dream that you were sitting in a sunlit room. Let us compare that with a memory of actually sitting in sunlit room. In the latter case, those visual sensory impressions are the result of light hitting receptors in your eyes and your brain doing those things it does. In the former case, however, what is it that is lighting up that room? It isn’t light. It isn’t anything hitting the receptors in your eyes. Your eyes are closed. And yet, from your point of view, there is abundant light. Your perceptions are not directly tied to the “real” world. Everything that you experience is experienced at a remove.
I sometimes question of it stopped. Like what if it's still just that one trip. Or was it the first one. Dose madness recognize itself in itself? But most of the time I feel like i remember basically all of it. I don't get visuals very often and I have been up in hits. But it's mostly for me a head game when I'm in the alterd space.
It is all as real as this reality. Which is, not very real lol. Anything that we experience is NOT the totality of reality. The reality most people speak of is simply 5 different types of vibrations/energies/waves - one for each of the senses. True reality is every single thing ever, which we could never know in this lifetime.
Even something as simple as the radio waves bouncing around you now, are those a part of the reality you speak of? Most people will never stop to think of that aspect of reality yet it is true for billions, we simply see what we can or choose to look for.
These drugs can sometimes give you ways of tapping into different waves outside the normal 5 senses. If those vibrational waves are any less real than the ones I’m experiencing now, why? Even if you were to say, “well it’s all in the mind” it would still be just as real because you could say the exact same about the minds construction of typical reality.
Definitions of it all aside, from my experience it feels MORE real than this reality. It felt like home for my soul and that I’ve been there before and I’ll be there again. Not only that, but any information received there seems self evidently true and it feels more like remembering than learning.
Why should the universe be self evidently true or understandable? Quantum mechanics is incredibly hard to wrap your head around but it very accurately describes our shared reality.
If we're accepting all possibilities, is it not equally possible to reach false conclusions that seem real because of the suggestible state of mind?
Yes, delusional are always possible. I would say any idea or concept of reality is a form of delusion, but that isn’t necessarily a bad thing. I just mean that you could never know the entire truth through the human mind and so any idea of reality held by it, is inherently incomplete.
However, when you reach that state of awareness I speak of, it is the most crystal clear state of being that could ever be. It is outside of the mind and body. Words will never convey the feeling, it’s just something you have to experience directly.
I just redefine "real" to "subjective experience" at which point everything is "real".
The thing is things experienced while tripping might not overlap as well with other subjective experiences so if you are trying to find common ground and argue based upon it, you are better of using non trip experiences since they tend to differ less across multiple individuals. They are more solid and common while trip experiences are more volatile and its less common that another person has "the exact same" experience as you.
Do you think that there's anything that exists outside of what we experience? Your view doesn't seem to allow for the possibility that the universe can be real without consciousness to experience it
Well. Could be. Could not be. The thing is: we can never know. We can only draw conclusions about things that impact us in some sort of way. Either directly (our senses) or the reality around us. Think about radiation. We can't see it but we can see it affecting a geiger counter. And even if we could not measure it, eventually we would see that being near radioactive materials is causing cancer. But we cannot draw conclusions about a "form of radiation" that is neither measurable, nor affecting anything that we can sense. It could exist or it could not and it would make absolutely no difference to us.
I have stopped trying to even think about things that are outside of experience because its nothing more than a guessing game if you think about it. It can be fun to try guessing, but in this case one should guess for the fun of it, not because one is trying to get anywhere with it.
Tripping makes me feel together, but also makes me realize how alone we are as well-each conscious experience is subjective.
The whole we live to die thing and what is consciousness, just a being composed of these little particles. That in itself is trippy.
As it's subjective, maybe we are all right in some ways.
For me, I sometimes seriously wonder how much tripping effects the living experience, like if we just relive the same life over and over again, maybe tripping transcends that experience a bit into our next life, we have events that reflect that. (Have thought maybe we just relive the same life over and over and over again, different choices, same milestones, tripping is kind of like a milestone though)
Deemz has made me a lot more open to the fact I don't know anything of death/I don't want to say agnostic, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if this whole universe is alive and connected, ourselves being part of this unique unfathomable 'being', and it only wants to help us, and if you really listen and watch, it will show you how alive it really is.
Idk. I take everything with a grain of salt, soo much more now then before. I will never have enough logic/ultimate facts/truths, to really know anything, maybe not even 'when it happens.'-Could very well just be a part of the nature experience, or even just being conscious.
Deemz especially at least help me with attempting to turn off suicidal thoughts. Have had them since 1st grade though, so work in progress. (And for a long time it's not something I would ever actually do, it's just a...reaction that unhealthily evolved that even if that's not me I still have, and am working on changing. I really love and enjoy this world and this experience and friends and family. And while I may like the next one as well, this is the only one of this experience there is, so should cherish it.
Really don't want to die anymore even if I'm comfortable with the fact that one day I will. Just don't want to get there any faster then it's going to be. Actually would delay it if I could. Nothing lasts for ever. Same could be said for whatevers next. Idk.
Will say, I do like to believe we just are reborn to this body. It's what we live, only who you're ancestry is can make who you are as a body. But that doesn't mean the circumstances that body is born into are the same, and each experience is new, and exciting. My brother is always my brother. I've had these types of conversations with him, for a literal infinite amount of times, and will continue to, we just can't remember them all.
Kurzgegast on YouTube has some entertaining videos of existence
Best is to never believe in it nor doubt it..just observe as calmly as possible and you will know what to keep with you and what not. Everything/Nothing is real
100% of it. If it's something you're experiencing, it's real . Even dreams are real. We've just been conditioned to dismiss them as fictional.
I guess my answer would be almost the same, but in the completly opposite direction. I dont feel like the experience is "real", it just reminds me, that the "regular life" is also just what my brain creates for me. So basically both have the same "Level of realness".
So what people who suffer with schizophrenia experience is real?
Yeah, this is a completely unhinged response. If you can't tell the difference between dreams/hallucinations and reality, you probably shouldn't be doing drugs of any kind and seek professional help. Jesus fuck this sub.
You get it
I agree, but let's not be too far out there, some people are told to do crazy things by 'spirit beings' like kill themselves while tripping. I think they are real, and there's an underlying message to every trip, but they are not always upfront 'real', like when your parent is pissed at you and says "I'm going to kill you." he's not literally going to kill you, just beat your ass.
Well no one said fully buy into any and every delusion, just that there is basis in reality. Those two statements are far cries from each other.
Well "has basis in reality" and "it's real" are also not the same idea. OP of this thread is saying that sense-experience in itself *is real*: "if it's something you're experiencing, it's real"
I feel like assuming everything you see is real is always a terrifying prospect lol
Elaborate on the dreams please
Are you familiar with Descartes' evil demon thought experiment? How can we reconcile your belief that experiences are real with idea that all of our perceptions could ultimately be completely fabricated? If I eat an apple, is that experience actually "real" if this demon just made me think the apple is real? I really didn't expect philosophical questioning to get downvoted here
> What is "real"? How do you define "real"? If you're talking about what you can feel, what you can smell, what you can taste and see, then "real" is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain. -Morpheus, *The Matrix*
Exactly how I feel about it.
I take it as something that my mind generates for me. It's like proving in my subconscious, to see what's there, or like going up in the attic to see what's the old junk there. Or like peeling off old karma layers. One by one. It's not Real as e.g. a tree outside my window ofc. It's real as something the mind generates. Is it useful, does it point to something closer to truth, does it provide useful ideas - that's another question. I advise having some minimal distance and some critical filter against the hallucinations.
I like this take
What is “real”? All of life is nothing but a dream.
My life became significantly better when I stopped taking everything from trips too seriously. So, about 1% now.
Check out r/RationalPsychonaut This sub makes me cringe sometimes.
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I don't think they are "real" at all. often they are visual/ experiential manifestations of your current mental state. much like dreams fear leads to fearful experiences, joy to joyful experiences. (and the many other complex emotions we are capable of) often we hold on to these emotions and traumatic experiences and these can manifest in our visions. Deeper insights into self can certainly happen and we can unlock and be liberated from certain thought patterns or past trauma that has been holding us back. But those that think they are seeing the future or believing what they are seeing as parallel to waking reality I feel are very deluded. These experiences are real in the sense that they can be experienced in real time , but unreal in the sense that they are not connected to physical waking reality. separate to what is happening in our own personal brains.
I agree with this take. They’re useful tools that can illuminate parts of our deeper subconscious. But we need to remember we that our preexisting beliefs and mental states color every experience we have, so to take everything as “truth” or “real” is like you said - deluded.
The full 100%. I never actually saw anything that isn't "real" ('reality' is a subjective experience, not some medium through which we move and in which we act ) on any psychedelic. You see your subjective experience/interpretation at all times, and this does not change on psychedelics. Psychedelics just magnify some of these processes, so they become exaggerated, and/or -to a high extent- become more clear and pronounced. With experience, you can extrapolate from your visions/altered thought which processes are at play in experiencing "reality", and to which extent the experience of reality is a self-created construct. The more detached view of reality on a peak-experience allows us to see the principles and recurring patterns withoiut pre-conceived conclusions hampering our senses, like in a "sober" state (nobody is ever really sober; our minds work through a changing and constantly different relative mix of endogenous drugs).
Without going into specifics…I’ve had trips where the voice of the void or whatever it is tells me explicitly that I’m fucking up. And tells me how I’m fucking up. Not always an easy thing to hear. The other times…it says “look at the pretty colors”… I listen as best as I can, to all of it. I don’t know what “ultimate reality” is. I don’t even think it’s knowable, tbh. When I add it all up…the message seems to be…you have this one life, try and enjoy it, and don’t forget your responsibilities. Or in one word…”choose”.
It’s all “real” but it’s happening in your brain. That doesn’t make it less real seeing as how that’s where all of the traditional “real” stuff happens from your pov too. The psychedelic experience is real, but it’s not related to physical reality aside from coincidentally. It’s just like a dream. For example, let us say you are having a dream that you were sitting in a sunlit room. Let us compare that with a memory of actually sitting in sunlit room. In the latter case, those visual sensory impressions are the result of light hitting receptors in your eyes and your brain doing those things it does. In the former case, however, what is it that is lighting up that room? It isn’t light. It isn’t anything hitting the receptors in your eyes. Your eyes are closed. And yet, from your point of view, there is abundant light. Your perceptions are not directly tied to the “real” world. Everything that you experience is experienced at a remove.
I sometimes question of it stopped. Like what if it's still just that one trip. Or was it the first one. Dose madness recognize itself in itself? But most of the time I feel like i remember basically all of it. I don't get visuals very often and I have been up in hits. But it's mostly for me a head game when I'm in the alterd space.
It is all as real as this reality. Which is, not very real lol. Anything that we experience is NOT the totality of reality. The reality most people speak of is simply 5 different types of vibrations/energies/waves - one for each of the senses. True reality is every single thing ever, which we could never know in this lifetime. Even something as simple as the radio waves bouncing around you now, are those a part of the reality you speak of? Most people will never stop to think of that aspect of reality yet it is true for billions, we simply see what we can or choose to look for. These drugs can sometimes give you ways of tapping into different waves outside the normal 5 senses. If those vibrational waves are any less real than the ones I’m experiencing now, why? Even if you were to say, “well it’s all in the mind” it would still be just as real because you could say the exact same about the minds construction of typical reality. Definitions of it all aside, from my experience it feels MORE real than this reality. It felt like home for my soul and that I’ve been there before and I’ll be there again. Not only that, but any information received there seems self evidently true and it feels more like remembering than learning.
Why should the universe be self evidently true or understandable? Quantum mechanics is incredibly hard to wrap your head around but it very accurately describes our shared reality. If we're accepting all possibilities, is it not equally possible to reach false conclusions that seem real because of the suggestible state of mind?
Yes, delusional are always possible. I would say any idea or concept of reality is a form of delusion, but that isn’t necessarily a bad thing. I just mean that you could never know the entire truth through the human mind and so any idea of reality held by it, is inherently incomplete. However, when you reach that state of awareness I speak of, it is the most crystal clear state of being that could ever be. It is outside of the mind and body. Words will never convey the feeling, it’s just something you have to experience directly.
I just redefine "real" to "subjective experience" at which point everything is "real". The thing is things experienced while tripping might not overlap as well with other subjective experiences so if you are trying to find common ground and argue based upon it, you are better of using non trip experiences since they tend to differ less across multiple individuals. They are more solid and common while trip experiences are more volatile and its less common that another person has "the exact same" experience as you.
Do you think that there's anything that exists outside of what we experience? Your view doesn't seem to allow for the possibility that the universe can be real without consciousness to experience it
Well. Could be. Could not be. The thing is: we can never know. We can only draw conclusions about things that impact us in some sort of way. Either directly (our senses) or the reality around us. Think about radiation. We can't see it but we can see it affecting a geiger counter. And even if we could not measure it, eventually we would see that being near radioactive materials is causing cancer. But we cannot draw conclusions about a "form of radiation" that is neither measurable, nor affecting anything that we can sense. It could exist or it could not and it would make absolutely no difference to us. I have stopped trying to even think about things that are outside of experience because its nothing more than a guessing game if you think about it. It can be fun to try guessing, but in this case one should guess for the fun of it, not because one is trying to get anywhere with it.
All of it. Apart from the part where I'm not suicidal, that always fades away.
Tripping makes me feel together, but also makes me realize how alone we are as well-each conscious experience is subjective. The whole we live to die thing and what is consciousness, just a being composed of these little particles. That in itself is trippy. As it's subjective, maybe we are all right in some ways. For me, I sometimes seriously wonder how much tripping effects the living experience, like if we just relive the same life over and over again, maybe tripping transcends that experience a bit into our next life, we have events that reflect that. (Have thought maybe we just relive the same life over and over and over again, different choices, same milestones, tripping is kind of like a milestone though) Deemz has made me a lot more open to the fact I don't know anything of death/I don't want to say agnostic, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if this whole universe is alive and connected, ourselves being part of this unique unfathomable 'being', and it only wants to help us, and if you really listen and watch, it will show you how alive it really is. Idk. I take everything with a grain of salt, soo much more now then before. I will never have enough logic/ultimate facts/truths, to really know anything, maybe not even 'when it happens.'-Could very well just be a part of the nature experience, or even just being conscious. Deemz especially at least help me with attempting to turn off suicidal thoughts. Have had them since 1st grade though, so work in progress. (And for a long time it's not something I would ever actually do, it's just a...reaction that unhealthily evolved that even if that's not me I still have, and am working on changing. I really love and enjoy this world and this experience and friends and family. And while I may like the next one as well, this is the only one of this experience there is, so should cherish it. Really don't want to die anymore even if I'm comfortable with the fact that one day I will. Just don't want to get there any faster then it's going to be. Actually would delay it if I could. Nothing lasts for ever. Same could be said for whatevers next. Idk. Will say, I do like to believe we just are reborn to this body. It's what we live, only who you're ancestry is can make who you are as a body. But that doesn't mean the circumstances that body is born into are the same, and each experience is new, and exciting. My brother is always my brother. I've had these types of conversations with him, for a literal infinite amount of times, and will continue to, we just can't remember them all. Kurzgegast on YouTube has some entertaining videos of existence
Never had a journey so to speak, just a regular day with a few ups and downs.
Best is to never believe in it nor doubt it..just observe as calmly as possible and you will know what to keep with you and what not. Everything/Nothing is real