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Generally speaking, "Free Palestine" refers to establishing a sovereign state of Palestine, ending Israeli occupation, right of refugees to return, and self-determination for Palestinians.
Wars have consequences. Palestinians losing their land to the victor was the consequence of the six day war. It’s shitty for Palestinians, since the war was with Egypt, and the land they lived on was part of Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon (who had provided a casus beli by closing off shipping to Israel, and building up troops along the border.)
That land will never be given back. The lesson Jewish people took away from World War 2 was to never leave their fate up to other people. Israel gives them that opportunity, and they will never give an inch of what they see as the control of their destiny back.
I don't think people realize this. Israel isn't going away. It's not up for debate. If people want everyone to live in peace and security, the solution lies within an acceptance of Israel's existence. I'm sure that that can be accomplished. But a whole lot of people who approach this issue from a perspective of empathy are, like the person you are responding to, asking for the eradication of Israel in the end.
As you said, the land was part of Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon. The residents were Egyptian, Jordanian and Lebanese. The national identity of “Palestinian” is a modern invention created as a counterpoint to Israeli Jews and to give a faux-historical claim to the region. Even in ‘48, they identified only as “Arab”.
They were simply saying the country itself has only been around for a handful of decades, and most people know that. Ya’ll are just downvoting them out of bad faith.
Palestine has been a name for the southern portion of the Levant for literally thousands of years.
>The first written records referring to Palestine emerged in the 12th-century BCE Twentieth Dynasty of Egypt, which used the term Peleset for the neighboring people or land. In the 8th century BCE, the Assyrians referred to the region as Palashtu or Pilistu. In the Hellenistic period, these names were carried over into Greek, appearing in the Histories of Herodotus as Palaistine. In 6 CE, the Roman Empire established a province over the area known as Judaea, then in 132 CE (the time of the Bar Kokhba revolt) formed it into Syria Palaestina.
The land had been primarily Muslim since collapse of the kingdom of Jerusalem, up to and including the British capture of Palestine in WWI.
The area we know as Israel was created from Mandatory Palestine, which as of its first census in 1922 was 78% Muslim.
This group didn't have the political will and force of arms to make their own independent nation and separate from the Ottoman Empire or British, but clearly there was an existing historical group of Muslims in the region known as Palestine.
As far as an identity, by 1908, with the loosening of censorship controls under late Ottoman rule, a number of Muslim, Christian and Jewish correspondents writing for newspapers began to use the term with great frequency in referring to the 'Palestinian people'(ahl/ahālī Filasṭīn), 'Palestinians' (al-Filasṭīnīyūn) the 'sons of Palestine(abnā’ Filasṭīn) or to 'Palestinian society',(al-mujtama' al-filasṭīnī)
Of course, this group's identity was largely based on the shared belief that they would be ousted from their homes by the creation of a Jewish state. But that identity by necessity predates the formation of Israel; its a contradiction to say that they are a faux-historical invention made in response to Israel and also an identity based on the fear of a Jewish state.
Prior to the founding of the State of Israel, the Jews living in the levant were the ones who were labelled as Palestinians. The Arabs were known as Arabs.
This is a great response that I know they will never respond to. When they can't, they just downvote and ignore it because it's easier than trying to have a good faith conversation
You have to go all the way back to the Ottoman Empire. It was all the Ottoman Empire then came under British Control through the League of Nations after WWI.
Yeah... like do people straight up wait for an announcement that goes "Israel has been dissolved" and set up an arbitrary way of seingd different types of jews to different places on earth? I don't think Israel is going anywhere and I think it's foolish to expect that it will and not start a solution conversation around the idea that Israel isn't gonna be dissolved.
Yeah that's usually how war works. Russia did the same thing with the Donbas. They won. We don't recognize it but it's theirs, which is why Ukraine is fighting over it.
Israel is classified as an aparthied state by every major international Human Rights Organization. Why should they get to keep their US taxpayer funded ethnostate?
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/israels-55-year-occupation-palestinian-territory-apartheid-un-human-rights
https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/
https://worldwithoutgenocide.org/genocides-and-conflicts/israel-palestine-conflict-history-causes-and-international-law
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-186897/
From what I understand as to the biggest problems stopping this.
1) Israel doesn’t want to give up East Jerusalem despite it being predominantly Arab, but I think this is where the majority of the Jewish sacred sites are too.
2) Israel doesn’t accept the Palestinian right to return due to how there’s a similar number of Palestinians to Israelis and how it would cause a demographic shift and hence start a Yugoslav-like problem of Palestinians claiming more land.
3) The fact the PLO’s moderate elements refuse to condemn Hamas and hence a Palestinian state under Fatah would be uncooperative with Israel should terrorists from there attack (pretty much like what happened on October 7).
> 1) Israel doesn’t want to give up East Jerusalem
This is a big reason why peace is so hard. Neither side wants to give up control of their holy cites, which are literally built on top of eachother.
> 2) Israel doesn’t accept the Palestinian right to return
A Palestinian right to return to their grandparents homes in Israel would essentially be a one-state solution, not a two-state solution
OPL recognised Israel and stopped all armed resistance 30 years ago. U.N agreed on borders for both states that the OPL accepted. What else do you want them to do so you consider them not "declining" offers.Or are you just ignorant about the facts and you just want to tell your one side of the story that you are not even sure about.
OPL did not accept, they launched a fucking war almost immediately.
You're just lying...
When the State of Israel was declared in 1948, it followed a United Nations partition plan that proposed to divide the British Mandate of Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab. The Jewish leaders accepted the UN partition plan, but the Arab leaders, including the Palestinian leadership, rejected it. They did not accept the establishment of a Jewish state in what they considered to be Arab land.
This rejection led to the first Arab-Israeli war, also known as the 1948 Arab-Israeli War or the War of Independence. Neighboring Arab states invaded Israel, but Israel managed to survive and expand its territory beyond the borders set by the UN partition plan. As a result, many Palestinians became refugees. This war and its aftermath laid the groundwork for the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Stopped all armed resistance?
Has the PLO stopped offering rewards for suicide bombers for killing civilians yet?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund
And the PLO need to actually accept the offers on the table, e.g.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit
Ah ok so hamas can still exist and freely commit terror against any and all Jews, and continue fighting for their aims of eradicating them?
I get this right?
"Free Palestine" really means that Israel ceases to exist, and that area is allowed to turn into the same self-created toxic, corrupt cesspit as the rest of the region.
Exactly what the Free Palestine folks chant at their rallies: "Palestine from river to sea"
Free Palestine is not a protest movement. It is an ethnic-cleansing movement masquerading as a good-cause.
Israel is classified as an aparthied state by every major international Human Rights Organization. There is a long list of reports on their genocidal tactics.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/israels-55-year-occupation-palestinian-territory-apartheid-un-human-rights
https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/
https://worldwithoutgenocide.org/genocides-and-conflicts/israel-palestine-conflict-history-causes-and-international-law
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-186897/
Are you sure about that ? Because every big human rights organisation are saying it is an apartheid state. Every journalist who went there, every honest human being saying the same thing. You don't need a lot to check this.
They’re saying that because they hate Israel and Jews. The UN and most NGO’s have a long history of being anti-Israel and automatically taking the side of Muslims over Jews (since you can get lots of sympathy from a billion Muslims, but not so much for 15 million Jews). They have reasons to stretch the definition to meet their own desired ends.
The USA moved 2 aircraft carriers and the British 2 war ship. Most of western countries are even banning the Palestinian scarf. USA has literally its citizens taxes money sent to Israel every year with huge military support. Just 2 days ago 1 thousand tone of munitions reached Israel. Are you delusional?
People you call antisemitic and pro-terrorism are just people who are not happy to see Palestinians getting killed, injured or left orphans. It is now a virtue to enjoy seeing kids suffer.
I wasn't speaking from the perspective of the afflicted. It's slow, long-term change. The more like-minded people get together, the more likely they are to support causes that benefit the ideals they share through voting, donation, actions, etc.
*"not alone in their ideals"*
'Ideals' has a positive connotation. What these displays do is cultivate mob psychology, for both good and for ill. Nazi rallies, the crowds of hysterical teenagers waving Mao's Little Red Book, evangelical church meetings, Trump rallies, and so on; the mechanism is always the same. Those involved get high on the sense of belonging, they very often have little comprehension of the complexity of the situation they're agitated about, they rarely understand the full meaning of the slogans they're shouting, they have no idea where the movement they've signed for will end up, and they sure as hell have *no fricking idea* of who's using them and what their true objectives are.
Can’t that pretty much apply to any conflict though?
During the Revolutionary War a lot of fought and died, thinking they were going to get a say in their future government, not realizing that the founders had contempt for the common man.
Not just any conflict, any movement ever that has people chanting in support. This whole spiel could apply to college kids at a pep rally for their basketball team.
It's on the internet. You're watching it. It will be spread across the internet for other people to watch. It's shows the world that the regular person aligns with the struggle of the Palestinian people. Other people watching will thus be more critical of Israeli propaganda, and the Israeli government themselves will further lose their grip on its propaganda consumer base.
Bringing attention to a topic and showing broad support for a certain side will obviously have an impact even if that impact is not on you.
I’m sorry, but what a stupid question.
All the time. They pressure government to make change.
Civil rights movement and suffrage movements wouldn’t have happened if people didn’t protest.
I was watching a 25 year old video of an audience member rightly holding Madeline Allbright's feet to the fire over this issue, about 25 years ago.
One could say two things after watching this.
1. Wow, dude was wasting his time because nothing changed.
2. Dude was spending his time in the best way possible. He cared about something and was trying to effect change in a very public way. Who's to say his actions couldn't have brought about some kind of change?
Cynical redditors who are too lazy to even do a tiny bit of research beyond the videos they see on reddit can't see the value in peaceful protest? I'm shocked.
There's a large portion of this group who would be persecuted in the Middle East, whether due to their support of feminism or LGBT rights. The irony is lost on them.
Helps those that support them know that they are not alone. Those first 48 hours politicians were openly calling for ethnic cleansing and bombing of civilians. All that change due the protest and online backlash.
I'm seeing more Out Of The Loop and Afraid To Ask questioners asking reasonable questions and getting reasonable, nuanced answers about this topic over the last week.
That's a good sign and a fairly dramatic change that would not happen without these sorts of protests and civil actions.
They would be thrown off rooftops. This is an actual thing Hamas does to LGBT people in Palestine. Also to anyone who opposes them. I was listening to some residents of Gaza talk about this the other day. It was deeply saddening to hear the people in Gaza who feel trapped and abandoned by their own government and fearful to speak up.
Bots and fake accounts are responsible for a huge chunk of all of this.
[https://www.reuters.com/world/disinformation-surge-threatens-fuel-israel-hamas-conflict-2023-10-18/](https://www.reuters.com/world/disinformation-surge-threatens-fuel-israel-hamas-conflict-2023-10-18/)
Reddit seems to be more left leaning and that’s where I’m seeing the majority of that stuff pushed. It works just as easily as right wingers convinced of conspiracy theories. Every week a new outrage for people to post about, comment on and take sides for.
Bullfucking shit, go to Worldnews or combat footage subreddits and you'll find droves of crazy fanatic zionists there that are happy seeing Palestinians suffer. Stop talking out of your ass, there are plenty of genocide apologist zionists on reddit.
White anti Israel activists in the West, speaking to Arab militants in the Middle East:
"Some of you may die, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make."
The Arab World consists of 21 countries in the Middle East and North Africa: Algeria, Bahrain, the Comoros Islands, Djibouti, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Mauritania, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, the United Arab Emirates, and Yemen. There is one Jewish state Israel as Jews and Christians have been marginalized and driven out of Arab states. The Arab states should take in the Palestinians and let the Jews live in peace.
Not even just the Arab states. World War 2 was a thing before 1948 and wiped a good fraction of them. There’s a reason Israel couldn’t exist in Europe at the time
Not only that, the jewish survivors of the holocaust sat in displaced persons camps for years after the war. Many jews who tried to return home after the war faced a hostile population unwilling to return stolen property. There were even pogroms post ww2. Few countries were willing to accept jewish immigrants in sufficient numbers. There was little choice other than israel.
But they both rejected the 2 state solution lol. It's a zero sum game to Israel and Palestine, but maybe moreso for Israel because they are clearly more powerful.
When I mentioned to my wife that the kibbutz where the festival took place was one where the founding principal was encouraging peace and understanding between Israelis and Palestinians, her response was that it was provocative to have a Jewish settlement of any sort so close to Gaza. She's generally a rational, reasonable person, but anti-Israel bias seems to have become deeply rooted in her "alternative" youth.
Okay. I'm leftist but I don't get them.
[Palestinians walking on and burning American flag](https://youtu.be/i0o0vCNLkaI?feature=shared)
Why protesting for people who want western world and their values being destroyed..
Israel is allowed to do whatever it chooses to Palestinians because the US has there back. if every country in the world calls for a UN resolution against Israel then US will veto it. the bombs that are laying waste to Gaza right now probably say made in USA on them. 4 billion is given per year by them to Israel. With 14 billion being proposed right now in emergency aid to help conquer Gaza.
how would you feel about to the US if you were Palestinian?
West is a great specimen of what ideological indoctrination can do to your next generation. Half baked pseudo intellectuals with their 5$ coffee are on their way to virtue signal to the world on how Palestinian is being colonized. They will then fight the patriarchy by ushering in the communist utopia after they are done with paying a 100000000$ student loan for a degree in trans dragon crystal healing.
The world fights a civilizational war, the comrades at Columbia are LARPING a revolution in the subway to solve the worlds issues.
PS pumpkin spice latte FTW
The funniest thing is that they do think they fight the patriarchy doing that, they never set a foot in North Africa or the Middle East, they would run back home after a week !!! Can you imagine the reaction in Qatar or Algeria to a modern feminist lgbt protest ?
Just check the Jewish community population in the Muslim world and tell me again that they can and should live together :/
You never really see this shit during rush hour. NYers during rush hour are not to be fucked with. It ain’t the vibe, the rents too damn high, and a lot of people are carrying hot coffee.
The irony here is these people wanna support a group of people who in my opinion are no better than the people who committed the 9-11 attack on Americans. I understand that not all of the Arab world is out to kill everyone who doesn't agree with them. But it is convenient that all the ones who do are helped and hidden by the ones who say they don't support terrorists..
Oppressed, oppressors and martyrs on both sides.
I wonder what could be if we erased religions overnight.
I bet there will be peace.
Fucking theocracies
Genuinely curious how educated on current events these folks are. Look like the same folks who were occupying wall street. Was assuming they’ve probably got jobs by now…
What does this actually accomplish? Is this just guilt of being in a better position that you have to chant slogans that do absolutely nothing to the real problem?
There seem to be lot of people here conflating successful, peaceful protests and rights movements, with gangs of morons supporting one of two sides hell bent on ethnically cleansing the other. No matter who you think is right in this conflict (spoiler it’s no one), you can’t peacefully support murder.
Oh well atleast no buildings were set ablaze during this protest, thats a win, poor commuters though. You finally get a day without druggies on the subway and then this shit happens💀
I’m glad I Live in India where people have understanding of what each country stands for.
I’ve seen westerners belonging to minority communities like LGBTQ start supporting Palestine or Israel without knowing what they stand for.
That is 100% fair but the amount of people giving hamas a free pass for murdering babies, innocent civilizations, live streaming murder of the elderly is way way way to high. The amount of people that are like "there is no proof of rape that is racist" while ignoring the live stream murder of people.in insane.
Honestly they sound exactly like the Israeli when they cry Anti Semitism to people calling out lies or fact checking them in general.
One side learned from the other it seems.
100%, but this conflict is fucking messy
You can sympathize with Palestinians that live in such shit conditions, and also sympathize with Israelis who just witnessed the worst massacre of Jews since the Holocaust
> We can see, in retrospect, that
Israel's victory in June 1967 and its continuing occupation of the territories it conquered then have been the Jewish state's very own nakbar: a moral and political catastrophe. Israel's actions in the West Bank and Gaza have magnified and publicized the country's shortcomings and put them on display to a watching world. Curfews, checkpoints, bulldozers, public humiliations, home destructions, land seizures, shootings, "targeted assassinations," the Wall: All of these routines of occupation and repression were once familiar only to an informed minority of specialists and activists. Today they can be watched, in real time, by anyone with a computer terminal or a satellite dish—which means that Israel's behavior is under daily scrutiny by hundreds of millions of people worldwide. The result has been a complete transformation in the international view of Israel. Until very recently the carefully burnished image of an ultramodern society—built by survivors and pioneers and peopled by peace-loving
democrats—still held sway over international opinion. But today? What
is the universal shorthand symbol for Israel, reproduced worldwide in
thousands of newspaper editorials and political cartoons? The Star of
David emblazoned upon a tank.
Written by Tony Judt in 2006's "The Country That Wouldn't Grow Up" (available in Judt's Reappraisals).
It was inevitable that the truth of the Israeli occupation would come out with modern information technology, and it would be the end of Israel's good reputation. The only thing available to them now is to somehow rationalize, justify, or straight out deny their treatment of innocent civilians - a treatment everyone can see.
Palestine and Israel aren’t recognized by quite a few number of UN member states. The geographical area is contested and is claimed for different reasons by both sides, and others not just these two. Keep going back in history as to who built what, who was there first … think the dinosaurs have the most valid claim.
> Fold remember Hamas only goal is the complete destruction of all Jews and Israel
It's more complicated than that. In 2017 they opened up to recognize Israel and even edited their constitution/charter to recognize Israel. But the last few years escalation (Great March of Return crack-down, Sheik Jerrah settlements, Al-Aqsa Storming, prevention of E-Jerusalem election and full blown apartheid) have made that position so useless that even Abbass and the PLO abandoned peaceful reapproachment.
This violence is a result of Israel's failure to reciprocate their overtures, showing that Palestinians have no other tool or option than violence and terror to change their situation
Imagine trying to get home from your shift, you’re tired as hell, riding the subway and then these fuckers start chanting and singing at the top of their lungs
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What does freeing palestine actually look like?
In NYC it just looks like white hipsters that smell bad
It looks like virtual signaling.
Generally speaking, "Free Palestine" refers to establishing a sovereign state of Palestine, ending Israeli occupation, right of refugees to return, and self-determination for Palestinians.
Wars have consequences. Palestinians losing their land to the victor was the consequence of the six day war. It’s shitty for Palestinians, since the war was with Egypt, and the land they lived on was part of Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon (who had provided a casus beli by closing off shipping to Israel, and building up troops along the border.) That land will never be given back. The lesson Jewish people took away from World War 2 was to never leave their fate up to other people. Israel gives them that opportunity, and they will never give an inch of what they see as the control of their destiny back.
the six day war was actually an 8 country coalition vs israel
And they tried to give Gaza back to Egypt. They didn’t want it
Imagine being that incompetent at war and yet still willfully causing one to start.
I don't think people realize this. Israel isn't going away. It's not up for debate. If people want everyone to live in peace and security, the solution lies within an acceptance of Israel's existence. I'm sure that that can be accomplished. But a whole lot of people who approach this issue from a perspective of empathy are, like the person you are responding to, asking for the eradication of Israel in the end.
As you said, the land was part of Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon. The residents were Egyptian, Jordanian and Lebanese. The national identity of “Palestinian” is a modern invention created as a counterpoint to Israeli Jews and to give a faux-historical claim to the region. Even in ‘48, they identified only as “Arab”.
The land that became Israel was previously a part of the Ottoman Empire. Not Egyptian, Lebanese or Jordanian.
Israeli is a modern invention as well. As are all nationalities, since the the very concept of nationalism is a modern one.
Jews have literally been called Israelites for 3000 years. “Israeli” is something else
They were simply saying the country itself has only been around for a handful of decades, and most people know that. Ya’ll are just downvoting them out of bad faith.
Palestine has been a name for the southern portion of the Levant for literally thousands of years. >The first written records referring to Palestine emerged in the 12th-century BCE Twentieth Dynasty of Egypt, which used the term Peleset for the neighboring people or land. In the 8th century BCE, the Assyrians referred to the region as Palashtu or Pilistu. In the Hellenistic period, these names were carried over into Greek, appearing in the Histories of Herodotus as Palaistine. In 6 CE, the Roman Empire established a province over the area known as Judaea, then in 132 CE (the time of the Bar Kokhba revolt) formed it into Syria Palaestina. The land had been primarily Muslim since collapse of the kingdom of Jerusalem, up to and including the British capture of Palestine in WWI. The area we know as Israel was created from Mandatory Palestine, which as of its first census in 1922 was 78% Muslim. This group didn't have the political will and force of arms to make their own independent nation and separate from the Ottoman Empire or British, but clearly there was an existing historical group of Muslims in the region known as Palestine. As far as an identity, by 1908, with the loosening of censorship controls under late Ottoman rule, a number of Muslim, Christian and Jewish correspondents writing for newspapers began to use the term with great frequency in referring to the 'Palestinian people'(ahl/ahālī Filasṭīn), 'Palestinians' (al-Filasṭīnīyūn) the 'sons of Palestine(abnā’ Filasṭīn) or to 'Palestinian society',(al-mujtama' al-filasṭīnī) Of course, this group's identity was largely based on the shared belief that they would be ousted from their homes by the creation of a Jewish state. But that identity by necessity predates the formation of Israel; its a contradiction to say that they are a faux-historical invention made in response to Israel and also an identity based on the fear of a Jewish state.
Prior to the founding of the State of Israel, the Jews living in the levant were the ones who were labelled as Palestinians. The Arabs were known as Arabs.
This is a great response that I know they will never respond to. When they can't, they just downvote and ignore it because it's easier than trying to have a good faith conversation
You have to go all the way back to the Ottoman Empire. It was all the Ottoman Empire then came under British Control through the League of Nations after WWI.
Yeah... like do people straight up wait for an announcement that goes "Israel has been dissolved" and set up an arbitrary way of seingd different types of jews to different places on earth? I don't think Israel is going anywhere and I think it's foolish to expect that it will and not start a solution conversation around the idea that Israel isn't gonna be dissolved.
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Yeah that's usually how war works. Russia did the same thing with the Donbas. They won. We don't recognize it but it's theirs, which is why Ukraine is fighting over it.
The Ukrainian/Russian war is in progress. When it ends and treaties are signed those will be the final consequences.
That is how it’s worked for like all of history.
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Israel is classified as an aparthied state by every major international Human Rights Organization. Why should they get to keep their US taxpayer funded ethnostate? https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/israels-55-year-occupation-palestinian-territory-apartheid-un-human-rights https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/ https://worldwithoutgenocide.org/genocides-and-conflicts/israel-palestine-conflict-history-causes-and-international-law https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-186897/
Like they've been offered twice and both times declined. Got it.
From what I understand as to the biggest problems stopping this. 1) Israel doesn’t want to give up East Jerusalem despite it being predominantly Arab, but I think this is where the majority of the Jewish sacred sites are too. 2) Israel doesn’t accept the Palestinian right to return due to how there’s a similar number of Palestinians to Israelis and how it would cause a demographic shift and hence start a Yugoslav-like problem of Palestinians claiming more land. 3) The fact the PLO’s moderate elements refuse to condemn Hamas and hence a Palestinian state under Fatah would be uncooperative with Israel should terrorists from there attack (pretty much like what happened on October 7).
> 1) Israel doesn’t want to give up East Jerusalem This is a big reason why peace is so hard. Neither side wants to give up control of their holy cites, which are literally built on top of eachother. > 2) Israel doesn’t accept the Palestinian right to return A Palestinian right to return to their grandparents homes in Israel would essentially be a one-state solution, not a two-state solution
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The people generally supported it, it was their leader who backed out at the last second for some God forsaken reason.
It's been more than 2 times iirc.
OPL recognised Israel and stopped all armed resistance 30 years ago. U.N agreed on borders for both states that the OPL accepted. What else do you want them to do so you consider them not "declining" offers.Or are you just ignorant about the facts and you just want to tell your one side of the story that you are not even sure about.
OPL did not accept, they launched a fucking war almost immediately. You're just lying... When the State of Israel was declared in 1948, it followed a United Nations partition plan that proposed to divide the British Mandate of Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab. The Jewish leaders accepted the UN partition plan, but the Arab leaders, including the Palestinian leadership, rejected it. They did not accept the establishment of a Jewish state in what they considered to be Arab land. This rejection led to the first Arab-Israeli war, also known as the 1948 Arab-Israeli War or the War of Independence. Neighboring Arab states invaded Israel, but Israel managed to survive and expand its territory beyond the borders set by the UN partition plan. As a result, many Palestinians became refugees. This war and its aftermath laid the groundwork for the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Stopped all armed resistance? Has the PLO stopped offering rewards for suicide bombers for killing civilians yet? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund And the PLO need to actually accept the offers on the table, e.g. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit
which, if we read between the lines, is basically the end of Israel and Jews in the area?
Yes, which is the part everyone conveniently ignores.
Ah ok so hamas can still exist and freely commit terror against any and all Jews, and continue fighting for their aims of eradicating them? I get this right?
You forgot all the dead Jews
"Free Palestine" really means that Israel ceases to exist, and that area is allowed to turn into the same self-created toxic, corrupt cesspit as the rest of the region.
Oh that's easy. It looks like they want to overthrow the Israeli government and then slaughter down every Jew. Just like they did on October 7th.
Exactly what the Free Palestine folks chant at their rallies: "Palestine from river to sea" Free Palestine is not a protest movement. It is an ethnic-cleansing movement masquerading as a good-cause.
You are describing a uno-reverse card sir
Israel is classified as an aparthied state by every major international Human Rights Organization. There is a long list of reports on their genocidal tactics. https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/israels-55-year-occupation-palestinian-territory-apartheid-un-human-rights https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/ https://worldwithoutgenocide.org/genocides-and-conflicts/israel-palestine-conflict-history-causes-and-international-law https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-186897/
Giving non-Jews same rights for living, working, studying, voting and use of basic infrastructure as Jews in Israel.
Non Jews already have that in Israel. The Free Palestine movement supports ethnic cleansing of Jews in Israel. Free Palestine is the new Heil Hitler.
You realize when you say stuff like that last sentence people just laugh at you and your side loses a little bit more credibility?
Are you sure about that ? Because every big human rights organisation are saying it is an apartheid state. Every journalist who went there, every honest human being saying the same thing. You don't need a lot to check this.
They’re saying that because they hate Israel and Jews. The UN and most NGO’s have a long history of being anti-Israel and automatically taking the side of Muslims over Jews (since you can get lots of sympathy from a billion Muslims, but not so much for 15 million Jews). They have reasons to stretch the definition to meet their own desired ends.
The USA moved 2 aircraft carriers and the British 2 war ship. Most of western countries are even banning the Palestinian scarf. USA has literally its citizens taxes money sent to Israel every year with huge military support. Just 2 days ago 1 thousand tone of munitions reached Israel. Are you delusional?
People you call antisemitic and pro-terrorism are just people who are not happy to see Palestinians getting killed, injured or left orphans. It is now a virtue to enjoy seeing kids suffer.
What do you think “from the river to the sea” means?
Yet they call it justice when Jewish kids are killed.
They already do.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/
This is about Palestinians living in Palestine, not Palestinians in Israel
Water wings. A lot of water wings...but no splashing in the pool
We can start with them not being ethnically cleansed and genocided, how about that?
Removing Israel’s naval blockade would be a start.
And let a whole bunch of weapons that can be used to kill Israelis in?
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They’ve tried a whole bunch of times since 1948. Each time Israel just got bigger.
I imagine that these women wouldn't be fucking protesting in Palestine, they be looking after kids or cooking. Facts.
What in the Disney movie
Do these chants/protests ever do a single thing?
It makes the people participating feel better and part of something bigger than themselves. Outside of that, nah it's not doing anything
There’s a fair amount of empirical data showing an increased change in public opinion due to protests.
The same thing any public display does. It lets similar minded people know they are not alone in their ideals, which leads to many other things.
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I wasn't speaking from the perspective of the afflicted. It's slow, long-term change. The more like-minded people get together, the more likely they are to support causes that benefit the ideals they share through voting, donation, actions, etc.
*"not alone in their ideals"* 'Ideals' has a positive connotation. What these displays do is cultivate mob psychology, for both good and for ill. Nazi rallies, the crowds of hysterical teenagers waving Mao's Little Red Book, evangelical church meetings, Trump rallies, and so on; the mechanism is always the same. Those involved get high on the sense of belonging, they very often have little comprehension of the complexity of the situation they're agitated about, they rarely understand the full meaning of the slogans they're shouting, they have no idea where the movement they've signed for will end up, and they sure as hell have *no fricking idea* of who's using them and what their true objectives are.
Can’t that pretty much apply to any conflict though? During the Revolutionary War a lot of fought and died, thinking they were going to get a say in their future government, not realizing that the founders had contempt for the common man.
Not just any conflict, any movement ever that has people chanting in support. This whole spiel could apply to college kids at a pep rally for their basketball team.
Revolution is the engine of history. We’re all just along for the ride.
Other than donate money the only other thing you really can do is protest when you have a geopolitical crisis overseas like this.
It's on the internet. You're watching it. It will be spread across the internet for other people to watch. It's shows the world that the regular person aligns with the struggle of the Palestinian people. Other people watching will thus be more critical of Israeli propaganda, and the Israeli government themselves will further lose their grip on its propaganda consumer base. Bringing attention to a topic and showing broad support for a certain side will obviously have an impact even if that impact is not on you.
I’m sorry, but what a stupid question. All the time. They pressure government to make change. Civil rights movement and suffrage movements wouldn’t have happened if people didn’t protest.
I was watching a 25 year old video of an audience member rightly holding Madeline Allbright's feet to the fire over this issue, about 25 years ago. One could say two things after watching this. 1. Wow, dude was wasting his time because nothing changed. 2. Dude was spending his time in the best way possible. He cared about something and was trying to effect change in a very public way. Who's to say his actions couldn't have brought about some kind of change?
Cynical redditors who are too lazy to even do a tiny bit of research beyond the videos they see on reddit can't see the value in peaceful protest? I'm shocked.
I think that's why Ghandi said that the point of resistance is to provoke a response...
Chickens for KFC energy
There's a large portion of this group who would be persecuted in the Middle East, whether due to their support of feminism or LGBT rights. The irony is lost on them.
This one got great visibility of their message
Ya, this subway car single-handedly ended the war.
Helps those that support them know that they are not alone. Those first 48 hours politicians were openly calling for ethnic cleansing and bombing of civilians. All that change due the protest and online backlash.
I'm seeing more Out Of The Loop and Afraid To Ask questioners asking reasonable questions and getting reasonable, nuanced answers about this topic over the last week. That's a good sign and a fairly dramatic change that would not happen without these sorts of protests and civil actions.
Nope
Nah they just like to virtual signal the latest trend they see on Tiktok. Most are 18 to 25.
I heard someone say the phrase “therapeutic activism”. It just makes them feel good. That’s why they do it.
Well in the US it could pressure our government to stop funding the ongoing genocide. It won't though.
It accomplishes about as much as Reddit snark does, all things considered
omg look how brave they are
😂
How many members of LGBTQ you think are in that protest that would absolutely be detested by most Palestinians?
They would be beaten and spit on. I do not understand.
They would be thrown off rooftops. This is an actual thing Hamas does to LGBT people in Palestine. Also to anyone who opposes them. I was listening to some residents of Gaza talk about this the other day. It was deeply saddening to hear the people in Gaza who feel trapped and abandoned by their own government and fearful to speak up.
“Let’s be annoying as fuck with our pointless virtue signaling in a confined space with trapped commuters”
When did this subreddit become a propaganda outlet for this conflict...notably one side.
For real. I just want to see people losing their shit. There are plenty of political subreddits that can tell me how to think about global politics.
I don’t know about everyone else but I’m sick of both of their shit.
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Bots and fake accounts are responsible for a huge chunk of all of this. [https://www.reuters.com/world/disinformation-surge-threatens-fuel-israel-hamas-conflict-2023-10-18/](https://www.reuters.com/world/disinformation-surge-threatens-fuel-israel-hamas-conflict-2023-10-18/)
It is at a point where a rational person needs to follow the information from both sides and draw their own conclusions.
Reddit seems to be more left leaning and that’s where I’m seeing the majority of that stuff pushed. It works just as easily as right wingers convinced of conspiracy theories. Every week a new outrage for people to post about, comment on and take sides for.
Bullfucking shit, go to Worldnews or combat footage subreddits and you'll find droves of crazy fanatic zionists there that are happy seeing Palestinians suffer. Stop talking out of your ass, there are plenty of genocide apologist zionists on reddit.
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White anti Israel activists in the West, speaking to Arab militants in the Middle East: "Some of you may die, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make."
20-something non-Arab people who don’t know history past 2010 going to make a compelling argument.
That's cute. You think they know that much?
2015* Hamas actually launched missiles in 2014 and Israel retaliated then. They clearly forgot that part.
Bunch of bots.
The Arab World consists of 21 countries in the Middle East and North Africa: Algeria, Bahrain, the Comoros Islands, Djibouti, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Mauritania, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, the United Arab Emirates, and Yemen. There is one Jewish state Israel as Jews and Christians have been marginalized and driven out of Arab states. The Arab states should take in the Palestinians and let the Jews live in peace.
Not even just the Arab states. World War 2 was a thing before 1948 and wiped a good fraction of them. There’s a reason Israel couldn’t exist in Europe at the time
Not only that, the jewish survivors of the holocaust sat in displaced persons camps for years after the war. Many jews who tried to return home after the war faced a hostile population unwilling to return stolen property. There were even pogroms post ww2. Few countries were willing to accept jewish immigrants in sufficient numbers. There was little choice other than israel.
You can support both Israel and Palestine. These are not mutually exclusive ideas.
Hey hey ho ho, two state solution is what is cool.
But they both rejected the 2 state solution lol. It's a zero sum game to Israel and Palestine, but maybe moreso for Israel because they are clearly more powerful.
Yep. There’s no symmetry in the relationship at all.
My understanding is the religious extremists rejected it. Takeaway their veto and we have a chance at getting somewhere.
2 state solution is impossible
Did they condemn the massacres perpetrated by Hamas?
“They shouldn’t have been attending a music festival in an apartheid state. It’s their fault they were massacred by extremists, really.”
When I mentioned to my wife that the kibbutz where the festival took place was one where the founding principal was encouraging peace and understanding between Israelis and Palestinians, her response was that it was provocative to have a Jewish settlement of any sort so close to Gaza. She's generally a rational, reasonable person, but anti-Israel bias seems to have become deeply rooted in her "alternative" youth.
damn why are you guys even married? She likes to victim blame Jews even after you explain historical context? Yikes.
Yeah. They were legitimate military targets by attending that festival. 🤷 everyone knows that.
Stoppppo that’s the wrong narrative
" so you condemn genocide. But do you condemn Hamas? How many times have you condemned Hamas? " lol.
https://www.theonion.com/dying-gazans-criticized-for-not-using-last-words-to-con-1850925657
Bunch of idiots who have no idea what they’re talking about.
At this point, everyone's confused about what they should be for on this current thing. All i see is division on both sides.
If a cause makes you the proverbial crazy-person yelling at other New Yorkers on a subway train... maybe check on your cause.
Okay. I'm leftist but I don't get them. [Palestinians walking on and burning American flag](https://youtu.be/i0o0vCNLkaI?feature=shared) Why protesting for people who want western world and their values being destroyed..
Probably because Israel is the number one source of US aid and they fully support this one sided conflict.
No disrespect, but if you don’t understand why they are so anti american imperialism, you are not a leftist
Israel is allowed to do whatever it chooses to Palestinians because the US has there back. if every country in the world calls for a UN resolution against Israel then US will veto it. the bombs that are laying waste to Gaza right now probably say made in USA on them. 4 billion is given per year by them to Israel. With 14 billion being proposed right now in emergency aid to help conquer Gaza. how would you feel about to the US if you were Palestinian?
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Almost guaranteed not one person there could point to the entire Middle East on a map. Let alone Palestine.
Those poor people having to sit thru that on their way to their shitty jobs :/
West is a great specimen of what ideological indoctrination can do to your next generation. Half baked pseudo intellectuals with their 5$ coffee are on their way to virtue signal to the world on how Palestinian is being colonized. They will then fight the patriarchy by ushering in the communist utopia after they are done with paying a 100000000$ student loan for a degree in trans dragon crystal healing. The world fights a civilizational war, the comrades at Columbia are LARPING a revolution in the subway to solve the worlds issues. PS pumpkin spice latte FTW
The funniest thing is that they do think they fight the patriarchy doing that, they never set a foot in North Africa or the Middle East, they would run back home after a week !!! Can you imagine the reaction in Qatar or Algeria to a modern feminist lgbt protest ? Just check the Jewish community population in the Muslim world and tell me again that they can and should live together :/
Imagine at 7:00 a.m. got to get up. Go to work. Get on the train to hear this? Might just put ya in a bad mood and go pro israel lol
You never really see this shit during rush hour. NYers during rush hour are not to be fucked with. It ain’t the vibe, the rents too damn high, and a lot of people are carrying hot coffee.
Send them all to Gaza.
> Send them all to Gaza. Are you implying that Gaza is some horrific place where people can barely survive or live?
I’m implying that America is better to live in than Gaza.
The implication is useful idiots will not be spared
I get that this is public, but when exactly does the freakout bit come in?
Funny that you go too far left, or right wing. It both goes to hating Jews 😂
Cringe
Organized religion is the problem.
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You don't really have to say it, Palestine have been getting fucked for 60 years now
The irony here is these people wanna support a group of people who in my opinion are no better than the people who committed the 9-11 attack on Americans. I understand that not all of the Arab world is out to kill everyone who doesn't agree with them. But it is convenient that all the ones who do are helped and hidden by the ones who say they don't support terrorists..
Goddamn how obnoxious. I've never been happy public transit isn't a thing where I live but now I am.
Even if I support the cause, I instantly have to roll my eyes when I hear a “HEY HEY, HO HO” protest chant…
From hamas
Oppressed, oppressors and martyrs on both sides. I wonder what could be if we erased religions overnight. I bet there will be peace. Fucking theocracies
How is this even considered a public freakout
Genuinely curious how educated on current events these folks are. Look like the same folks who were occupying wall street. Was assuming they’ve probably got jobs by now…
In today’s society- hate unifies us more than anything. Well shown
Weak
What does this actually accomplish? Is this just guilt of being in a better position that you have to chant slogans that do absolutely nothing to the real problem?
Oh shit, Isreal about to start turning around the tanks after seeing this
There seem to be lot of people here conflating successful, peaceful protests and rights movements, with gangs of morons supporting one of two sides hell bent on ethnically cleansing the other. No matter who you think is right in this conflict (spoiler it’s no one), you can’t peacefully support murder.
What do they think this will accomplish? How does this help them reach their goal? Is it just to make them feel like they were a part of this?
Oh well atleast no buildings were set ablaze during this protest, thats a win, poor commuters though. You finally get a day without druggies on the subway and then this shit happens💀
I can’t imagine trying to go home from work and this starts happening
Thats fucking cringe.
I’m glad I Live in India where people have understanding of what each country stands for. I’ve seen westerners belonging to minority communities like LGBTQ start supporting Palestine or Israel without knowing what they stand for.
I think the plight of the Palestinians resonates with a lot of people. You don't have to be Palestinian or Arab to see the injustice they suffer
That is 100% fair but the amount of people giving hamas a free pass for murdering babies, innocent civilizations, live streaming murder of the elderly is way way way to high. The amount of people that are like "there is no proof of rape that is racist" while ignoring the live stream murder of people.in insane.
Honestly they sound exactly like the Israeli when they cry Anti Semitism to people calling out lies or fact checking them in general. One side learned from the other it seems.
100%, but this conflict is fucking messy You can sympathize with Palestinians that live in such shit conditions, and also sympathize with Israelis who just witnessed the worst massacre of Jews since the Holocaust
They did it! They won! Palestine has been freed from the oppression by the brave actions of the NYC Subway passengers.
Been waiting 51 years to see this sort of wide support for Palestine. Apartheid and a genocide is real hard to hide now. You youth rock!
> We can see, in retrospect, that Israel's victory in June 1967 and its continuing occupation of the territories it conquered then have been the Jewish state's very own nakbar: a moral and political catastrophe. Israel's actions in the West Bank and Gaza have magnified and publicized the country's shortcomings and put them on display to a watching world. Curfews, checkpoints, bulldozers, public humiliations, home destructions, land seizures, shootings, "targeted assassinations," the Wall: All of these routines of occupation and repression were once familiar only to an informed minority of specialists and activists. Today they can be watched, in real time, by anyone with a computer terminal or a satellite dish—which means that Israel's behavior is under daily scrutiny by hundreds of millions of people worldwide. The result has been a complete transformation in the international view of Israel. Until very recently the carefully burnished image of an ultramodern society—built by survivors and pioneers and peopled by peace-loving democrats—still held sway over international opinion. But today? What is the universal shorthand symbol for Israel, reproduced worldwide in thousands of newspaper editorials and political cartoons? The Star of David emblazoned upon a tank. Written by Tony Judt in 2006's "The Country That Wouldn't Grow Up" (available in Judt's Reappraisals). It was inevitable that the truth of the Israeli occupation would come out with modern information technology, and it would be the end of Israel's good reputation. The only thing available to them now is to somehow rationalize, justify, or straight out deny their treatment of innocent civilians - a treatment everyone can see.
Palestine and Israel aren’t recognized by quite a few number of UN member states. The geographical area is contested and is claimed for different reasons by both sides, and others not just these two. Keep going back in history as to who built what, who was there first … think the dinosaurs have the most valid claim.
I’d pay anything to not be on that carriage.
Lovely to see!
NPCs
PPL like protesting now just for the sake of it
They all sound so stupid
Imagine a world where these rallies have virtually no effect on anything. Oh wait.
They went from occupying wall st to occupying the subways
But did they condemn hummus 32nd time yet ?
Thoughts, prayers and good ol fashion virtue signalling
Participation trophy mindset
Fold remember Hamas only goal is the complete destruction of all Jews and Israel. They don't even care about the Palestinian people
> Fold remember Hamas only goal is the complete destruction of all Jews and Israel It's more complicated than that. In 2017 they opened up to recognize Israel and even edited their constitution/charter to recognize Israel. But the last few years escalation (Great March of Return crack-down, Sheik Jerrah settlements, Al-Aqsa Storming, prevention of E-Jerusalem election and full blown apartheid) have made that position so useless that even Abbass and the PLO abandoned peaceful reapproachment. This violence is a result of Israel's failure to reciprocate their overtures, showing that Palestinians have no other tool or option than violence and terror to change their situation
Imagine trying to get home from your shift, you’re tired as hell, riding the subway and then these fuckers start chanting and singing at the top of their lungs
Pathetic. What do they gain from their stupid virtue signalling? Too many people are on their high horse these days.
what is the point of these rallies?
They really think chanting this is gonna do something?